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ipedro
Aug 17, 2012, 05:56 PM
Did you know that if you buy a movie on iTunes via AppleTV -- which doesn't require that you even own a PC/Mac --that you don't really own that movie? If the content owner pulls the movie from the store or licenses the movie to a different distributor, you no longer have access to that movie. It will not show up in your Purchased list.

If you purchase via iTunes on a computer, you will have a downloaded copy. But if you bought on AppleTV, it has no local storage so your movies are gone.

My brother noticed he was missing several movies so he contacted Apple. After a pair of geniuses who didn't have a clue (kept sending him download links and advice on how to download purchased movies in iTunes) I suggested he contact Tim Cook's office. They called him the same day and told him what I'm telling you: that when a content provider pulls a movie/tv show/song, Apple has no control. They remove that content from their servers and you lose access to it.

This is a serious flaw in iTunes in the Cloud. It needs to be patched up because movie licenses change hands all the time. A lot of people are going to start noticing their movies gone missing. PR disaster approaching in 3... 2... 1...



SandboxGeneral
Aug 17, 2012, 05:58 PM
Did your friend at least get his money refunded to him for the movies he purchased and was subsequently pulled?

ipedro
Aug 17, 2012, 06:14 PM
My brother was told that they will get back to him by Monday to conclude his request. But if people start noticing movies go missing, refunds aren't automatic, or movies aren't switched to a new license or saved in the cloud for past purchasers like it should work. Instead you have to write to Apple and escalate this to the highest office in the company to get any sort of response and compensation.

SandboxGeneral
Aug 17, 2012, 06:54 PM
For posterity, could you list the movies that were retracted from your brothers account?

ipedro
Aug 17, 2012, 07:07 PM
Universal Soldier, Rambo, Rambo First Blood, Rambo II, Basic Instinct, Terminator 2, Tron: Legacy... are just a few.

As you can guess, all of these movies are still available on iTunes but their distributer license changed so whoever bought from the old distributor is S.O.L.

This isn't the first time a distributer has changed and it won't be the last. It's a near certainty that some of the movies that you've bought will change distributors at some point and your old license will be invalid, meaning you're out of the movie and you're out of your money.

The only way around this is to download all your movies on a PC/Mac and back them up somewhere -- even if you bought them on AppleTV. Apple doesn't warn you about this when you buy a movie on AppleTV. This is creating a fragmentation on how your movies are handled. Some will be available via the Movies/Purchased menu. Others will be on your local iTunes computer (if you have one) that you'll have to AirPlay to the AppleTV.

bobr1952
Aug 18, 2012, 09:41 AM
I am not surprised at this at all--and really Apple can't do much about it since it is the distributor that is screwing around with people. I would never rely on the cloud for purchases--music, books, or movies. Distributors are always pulling licenses on a whim. I only buy content I can download--but it is nice to also have it in the cloud. I subscribe to MOG and have probably 10GBs of music on my iPhone from them but I also buy music--mostly the content Amazon puts on sale--but that is really the only music I consider safe--I often buy music I also have on my phone with MOG. Why? For this very reason, I don't trust the licenses by the distributors. Buyer beware when it comes to content providers.

jgabriel
Aug 27, 2012, 03:27 PM
Did you know that if you buy a movie on iTunes via AppleTV -- which doesn't require that you even own a PC/Mac --that you don't really own that movie? If the content owner pulls the movie from the store or licenses the movie to a different distributor, you no longer have access to that movie. It will not show up in your Purchased list.

If you purchase via iTunes on a computer, you will have a downloaded copy. But if you bought on AppleTV, it has no local storage so your movies are gone.

My brother noticed he was missing several movies so he contacted Apple. After a pair of geniuses who didn't have a clue (kept sending him download links and advice on how to download purchased movies in iTunes) I suggested he contact Tim Cook's office. They called him the same day and told him what I'm telling you: that when a content provider pulls a movie/tv show/song, Apple has no control. They remove that content from their servers and you lose access to it.

This is a serious flaw in iTunes in the Cloud. It needs to be patched up because movie licenses change hands all the time. A lot of people are going to start noticing their movies gone missing. PR disaster approaching in 3... 2... 1...

But what have they done about that? Did they provide any feedback? this is very serious. I was considering star buying movies form iTunes. In fact, I just bought my first, Batman The Dark knight. The movies section as well as the feature movies in the cloud arrived in Brazil very recently.

ipedro
Sep 2, 2012, 12:32 PM
My brother was given the opportunity to re-download the missing movies but was warned that this was a one time exception. When a movie is delisted from iTunes, it is no longer available for streaming from an AppleTV. If you purchased it on AppleTV, you will not have any backup copy because AppleTV doesn't have storage.

This is indeed a very serious flaw.

I've asked Apple support this question myself in several ways and the best way for them to understand it is:

"When I purchase a movie on AppleTV, do I have to manually download and back it up somewhere else or will it always be available for download on my AppleTV forever?"

Apple's answer is that you have to back it up. This kind of defeats the purpose of the convenience of an AppleTV.

ipedro
Sep 3, 2012, 11:23 PM
I'm collecting evidence, facts and exhausting all avenues with Apple Support in preparation for presenting this flaw to Tim Cook's office. In the process, I found this Apple support document (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1906?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US#faq35):

If I buy a new iPod with video capability or an Apple TV, will I have to purchase the movie again?

No.

If the answer is "No, you do not have to buy the movie again", this means that a movie will always be available for playback and/or downloading on new Apple devices. This contradicts some support staff's claim that you must backup all movies purchased on the AppleTV to a separate Mac or PC.

MorphingDragon
Sep 4, 2012, 03:55 AM
...and people wonder why Piracy is so attractive...

http://fim.413chan.net/art/src/132711537550-shifty-eyes_o_GIFSou.gif

yg17
Sep 4, 2012, 07:51 AM
And people wonder why I only buy movies on physical media :rolleyes:


If this keeps up, and Apple won't provide refunds or another satisfactory resolution, just file a chargeback with your credit card. You're not getting the product you paid for, so you have the right to file a dispute.

twietee
Sep 4, 2012, 07:56 AM
...and people wonder why Piracy is so attractive...

And people wonder why I only buy movies on physical media :rolleyes:


The latter, which I then have to illegally rip so that I can watch them on my legally bought Air.
Things could be so easy, yet they are utterly confused.

ipedro
Sep 11, 2012, 02:15 PM
I sent my complaint to Tim Cook's email and the next day somebody called me from his office. They confirmed that:

If a movie is delisted from iTunes or its license changes hands to a different distributor, you will not be able to download that movie again.

She said that I must back up all my purchases. When I told her I didn't have a computer because we're in a post PC world now (I only have an iPad, iPhone and AppleTV), she said that I have to back up the movies somehow. "So I need to buy a computer just to back up my movies?" I asked. "Yes" she said.

Apple is going to run into sooooo much trouble at some point because millions upon millions of people are buying movies on their AppleTV's and iPad's and over time some movies will either be delisted or change licenses and these millions of people are going to notice.

----------

My brother was given the opportunity to re-download the missing movies but was warned that this was a one time exception. When a movie is delisted from iTunes, it is no longer available for streaming from an AppleTV. If you purchased it on AppleTV, you will not have any backup copy because AppleTV doesn't have storage.

This is indeed a very serious flaw.

I've asked Apple support this question myself in several ways and the best way for them to understand it is:

"When I purchase a movie on AppleTV, do I have to manually download and back it up somewhere else or will it always be available for download on my AppleTV forever?"

Apple's answer is that you have to back it up. This kind of defeats the purpose of the convenience of an AppleTV.

I must make a correction to this. I misunderstood my brother. They said they would call him the next day about giving him a credit or to re-download his movies. In fact, when they called back, they said there was nothing he could do. Over $100 in movies that he had purchased on his AppleTV and iPod were gone and Apple did nothing about it other than tell him that it's in the User Agreement.

Wow. Just wow. :eek:

ipedro
Sep 16, 2012, 07:12 PM
This is now bordering on false advertising:

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg201/scaled.php?server=201&filename=screenshot20120916at814.png&res=landing

http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg692/scaled.php?server=692&filename=screenshot20120916at816.png&res=landing (http://www.apple.com/icloud/features/itunes-in-the-cloud/)


http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg856/scaled.php?server=856&filename=screenshot20120916at810.png&res=landing (http://www.apple.com/itunes/whats-on/)





"Since you already own the songs, albums, movies, or TV shows in your purchase history, you can tap to download them to any of your devices."

" You can also download your past iTunes purchases."

"And when you buy a TV show, you can always download it again"

Rigby
Sep 16, 2012, 07:23 PM
Universal Soldier, Rambo, Rambo First Blood, Rambo II, Basic Instinct, Terminator 2, Tron: Legacy... are just a few. I've had "Tron: Legacy" since it was released. It is still available in my Purchased section. No movie or TV show has ever been removed from my account.

jlasoon
Sep 16, 2012, 07:33 PM
I've had "Tron: Legacy" since it was released. It is still available in my Purchased section. No movie or TV show has ever been removed from my account.

Did you buy on the :apple:TV or iPad?

tdhurst
Sep 16, 2012, 07:33 PM
I've had "Tron: Legacy" since it was released. It is still available in my Purchased section. No movie or TV show has ever been removed from my account.

Uh oh, I wonder if the conspiracy theory is starting to unravel.

But we may be comparing different countries with different licensing laws here.

ipedro
Sep 16, 2012, 07:36 PM
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's very real. I got my answers from the top: Tim Cook's office called me after I filed a complaint with Apple support and escalated it when I didn't get a straightforward answer.

The reality here is that Apple advertises the "post PC" revolution where you don't need a PC (or Mac) with a huge hard drive. Instead, you buy your content and it's saved to the cloud. That's not a lot of use if in a couple of years you go back and your purchases are gone because the license holder pulled it from the store or sold the rights to a different party.

tdhurst
Sep 16, 2012, 07:39 PM
It's not a conspiracy theory. It's very real. I got my answers from the top: Tim Cook's office called me after I filed a complaint with Apple support and escalated it when I didn't get a straightforward answer.

The reality here is that Apple advertises the "post PC" revolution where you don't need a PC (or Mac) with a huge hard drive. Instead, you buy your content and it's saved to the cloud. That's not a lot of use if in a couple of years you go back and your purchases are gone because the license holder pulled it from the store or sold the rights to a different party.

I hope you're documenting this. Have you recorded all of the evidence on video and stored it with someone else?

Not to be all morbid, but you should probably only release it in the event you...well, you've probably seen enough movies.

I'm with you, man. I believe.

jlasoon
Sep 16, 2012, 07:42 PM
And people wonder why I only buy movies on physical media :rolleyes:

Exactly, all iTunes purchases hinge on some crazy legal agreement that no one will ever understand. Even if you have a movie backup, doesn't the computer system need to be connected to the internet to play the movie? What if you have no internet? What if the power goes out? Am I wrong in assuming that all these files are DRM protected?

Rigby
Sep 16, 2012, 07:52 PM
Did you buy on the :apple:TV or iPad?On the ATV. I remember this clearly, because I had just gotten my first ATV and purchased this just released movie as a test.

----------

Even if you have a movie backup, doesn't the computer system need to be connected to the internet to play the movie? No it does not.

Rigby
Sep 16, 2012, 08:04 PM
Uh oh, I wonder if the conspiracy theory is starting to unravel.

But we may be comparing different countries with different licensing laws here.I guess it's possible. I just noticed that the OP appears to be posting from Canada (I'm in the U.S.). However, it's hard to believe based on my experience. Even movies that I own that have been pulled from the store in the meantime are still available in my Purchased section. For example, "The Tree of Life" is currently not available for purchase in the store, but I can still download it.

tdhurst
Sep 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
I guess it's possible. I just noticed that the OP appears to be posting from Canada (I'm in the U.S.). However, it's hard to believe based on my experience. Even movies that I own that have been pulled from the store in the meantime are still available in my Purchased section. For example, "The Tree of Life" is currently not available for purchase in the store, but I can still download it.

That's encouraging to hear.

jdag
Sep 16, 2012, 08:36 PM
Is there any chance that the ATV could have been logged into a different store account when making the purchases? Therefore, nothing is actually missing, just is another account.

ipedro
Sep 16, 2012, 08:42 PM
Unless Tim Cook's office doesn't know what's going on, I'd be concerned. His assistant explicitly told me that I need to back up my movies after buying them on AppleTV (tough luck if I don't own a computer in the post-PC world).

Regardless, my brother is a living example how this is true. He lost approximately 10 movies.

Different licenses perhaps have different rules so not every movie/tv show/song has this restriction.

----------

Is there any chance that the ATV could have been logged into a different store account when making the purchases? Therefore, nothing is actually missing, just is another account.

No. I actually anticipated that problem and made sure my brother knew about that possibility. He's only ever had one account.

----------

I guess it's possible. I just noticed that the OP appears to be posting from Canada (I'm in the U.S.). However, it's hard to believe based on my experience. Even movies that I own that have been pulled from the store in the meantime are still available in my Purchased section. For example, "The Tree of Life" is currently not available for purchase in the store, but I can still download it.

I see "The Tree of Life" available for purchase in iTunes.

Rigby
Sep 16, 2012, 08:50 PM
I see "The Tree of Life" available for purchase in iTunes.It's available in the Canada store, but not in the U.S. store.

alphaod
Sep 16, 2012, 08:51 PM
I've never had an issue with missing purchases.

And I'm pretty sure Tim Cook has a lot of assistants ;)

ipedro
Sep 16, 2012, 09:25 PM
I've never had an issue with missing purchases.

And I'm pretty sure Tim Cook has a lot of assistants ;)

He does. One called my brother when he was missing his movies. A different one called me when I asked about the same issue. Both gave the same answer: your movies are not guaranteed to be available for download indefinitely. You must back them up.

While it may be in the User Agreement, Apple knows nobody reads those. It should be stated explicitly on the AppleTV when you press "Buy".

brentsg
Sep 16, 2012, 10:50 PM
I've had "Tron: Legacy" since it was released. It is still available in my Purchased section. No movie or TV show has ever been removed from my account.

Yeah it's the same situation for me. It seems there is more to the story.

kaielement
Sep 16, 2012, 11:42 PM
The latter, which I then have to illegally rip so that I can watch them on my legally bought Air.
Things could be so easy, yet they are utterly confused.

My understanding is that you can do a legal rip to your computer for backup like the law that stats you can burn one copy on to dvd for backup. Some one please correct me if I am wrong.

jlasoon
Sep 17, 2012, 12:04 AM
My understanding is that you can do a legal rip to your computer for backup like the law that stats you can burn one copy on to dvd for backup. Some one please correct me if I am wrong.

Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1996. Illegal to circumvent copy right protection.

kaielement
Sep 17, 2012, 12:40 AM
Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1996. Illegal to circumvent copy right protection.

Then why is it legal to burn one copy of a dvd for backup?

sandman42
Sep 17, 2012, 02:56 AM
Then why is it legal to burn one copy of a dvd for backup?

It isn't. In the US, it is illegal to circumvent the copy protection on a copyrighted DVD to extract the content, regardless of the purpose. It is actually illegal to rip or otherwise copy (copyrighted and copy protected) DVDs you have purchased, whether it's to put the content on your iPad, hard drive, another DVD, etc. The only thing you can do with it legally is to play it on a player that has a legal decryption key. We have the Digital Millenium Copyright Act to thank for that (and there are similar laws in most countries the US has trade agreements with).

Incidentally, CDs are different, and we can legally rip those to our computers. That's why music ripping is built into iTunes, but movie ripping isn't.

jlasoon
Sep 17, 2012, 06:47 AM
Then why is it legal to burn one copy of a dvd for backup?

Sandman42 put it very eloquently. It's not legal, you're just as bad as the online pirate in the eyes of the law. :D

Mr. McMac
Sep 17, 2012, 07:01 AM
Sandman42 put it very eloquently. It's not legal, you're just as bad as the online pirate in the eyes of the law. :D

Don't you know the law is meant to be broken? :D

Aidoneus
Sep 17, 2012, 07:45 AM
Did you know that if you buy a movie on iTunes via AppleTV -- which doesn't require that you even own a PC/Mac --that you don't really own that movie? If the content owner pulls the movie from the store or licenses the movie to a different distributor, you no longer have access to that movie. It will not show up in your Purchased list.

If you purchase via iTunes on a computer, you will have a downloaded copy. But if you bought on AppleTV, it has no local storage so your movies are gone.

My brother noticed he was missing several movies so he contacted Apple. After a pair of geniuses who didn't have a clue (kept sending him download links and advice on how to download purchased movies in iTunes) I suggested he contact Tim Cook's office. They called him the same day and told him what I'm telling you: that when a content provider pulls a movie/tv show/song, Apple has no control. They remove that content from their servers and you lose access to it.

This is a serious flaw in iTunes in the Cloud. It needs to be patched up because movie licenses change hands all the time. A lot of people are going to start noticing their movies gone missing. PR disaster approaching in 3... 2... 1...

This is a serious flaw with the movie studios and their licensing terms not with iTunes. You are misrepresenting the problem to imply that Apple is somehow at fault, or that they owe you something. They don't.

avaloncourt
Sep 17, 2012, 08:03 AM
The same thing happened with Amazon several years ago. Under Amazon's 'old' system, people lost all access to their purchased movies. It was a licensing issue then as well.

BJMRamage
Sep 17, 2012, 08:21 AM
Sounds like Apple "should" put another superscripted number on their ads/collateral saying *Movies/TV Shows/etc purchased from Apple/iTunes will be available from the cloud to watch at a future time on any iOS device, Apple TV, computer running iTunes so long as the licensing company owning the media continues to make it available to those who've purchased said media. Any licensing out of Apple's hands may circumvent the ability to download such media in the future, therefore it is encouraged that you make backups so you may enjoy the media locally.*

Jigga Beef
Sep 17, 2012, 08:33 AM
Sorry to hear about your brothers issues.

You keep saying we live in a "Post PC world" like that is something official that was voted on and that not having a computer is a decision that was voted on by the world. You choose not to have a computer thus you chose to rely on backing up and using the cloud for stroage. Its a new system with flaws that you are discovering.

You are also acting like this is a huge problem for apple as a whole and that news outlets are going to break this like a huge story. Like calling the AD false advertising. All digital media prodcuts apple and others are subject to licensing agreements. So those ADs are true according to a currnetly licensing agreements of the said media.

Again sorry you are having an issue but this isn't a worldwide problem.

starkmj
Sep 17, 2012, 08:53 AM
...as I bought my iMac with a 1TB hard drive, knowing I'd be ripping and saving movies.

I never buy movies directly from my Apple TV, and if I did, I'd still download it to my mac so I can put the movie on my or my kids ipads/ipods.

Knowing what you know, just make sure you always download the movie to iTunes when you purchase it, and you'll always have the movie, no matter what Apple and the movie studios decide to do.

ipedro
Sep 17, 2012, 09:44 AM
This is a serious flaw with the movie studios and their licensing terms not with iTunes. You are misrepresenting the problem to imply that Apple is somehow at fault, or that they owe you something. They don't.

They are at fault. They're misrepresenting the benefits of the system by

A - Saying that you can download your movie from the cloud whenever you like.
B - Promoting a Post-PC world when it's impossible to back up movies without a PC/Mac.

Apple would very much like nothing more than to not have these laws so of course the studios are the roadblock here but it's Apple's job to communicate that to customers, not lead them in the completely opposite direction by fooling people into a false sense of security. Many people who buy their movies on their AppleTVs have ZERO backups and are completely unaware that one day some of their movies will go missing and Apple won't allow them to recover those movies because the fine print in the User Agreement (that nobody reads) warns them to.

tdhurst
Sep 17, 2012, 10:21 AM
Digital Millennium Copyright Act of 1996. Illegal to circumvent copy right protection.

Isn't that only for DVDs?

And if so, let them catch me. As long as I'm not distributing, I feel fine about it.

----------

Rent, don't buy. If a movie is $3.99 to rent or $19.99 to buy, the math is pretty obviously stating that you'd have to watch the movie five times in order to recoup your money.

I know it doesn't totally solve the problem, but it's been helpful to me.

ipedro
Sep 17, 2012, 10:32 AM
Rent, don't buy. If a movie is $3.99 to rent or $19.99 to buy, the math is pretty obviously stating that you'd have to watch the movie five times in order to recoup your money.

I know it doesn't totally solve the problem, but it's been helpful to me.

I agree with some exceptions. I rent almost all my movies because I know I just don't think I'll watch a movie more than a few times, unless it's an all time favourite. If in 20 years I decide to watch a rarely watched movie again, I doubt I'd still have it around on the same medium anyway.

I've been a cable cutter for 5 to 6 years now so I like to have a collection of my favourite movies and tv shows available to watch when I just want some casual tv viewing and for when I have guests who want to watch TV but are wondering why I don't have cable.

When iTunes in the Cloud arrived for movies in Canada, I went on a shopping spree, spending north of $500 on that said collection. I already have them on DVDs (which I'll now sell) but what sold me on buying them on iTunes was that I could access them anywhere, have them stored in the cloud, ready to be viewed on an iPad, iPhone or AppleTV no matter where I am. I could have just easily ripped the DVDs but it's the storage and management of digital media that turned me off and it's the service I bought, not just the rights.

If this is taken away because a studio decided to pull movies from the iTunes store, it defeats the purpose and removes what people paid for. I paid for access to a movie in the cloud. Apple and the studios have an obligation to make good on their commitment to those who they sold the rights and service to. Sure, remove a movie from iTunes for future purchase but don't cut off the people who already paid for said rights and service.

tdhurst
Sep 17, 2012, 10:44 AM
I agree with some exceptions. I rent almost all my movies because I know I just don't think I'll watch a movie more than a few times, unless it's an all time favourite. If in 20 years I decide to watch a rarely watched movie again, I doubt I'd still have it around on the same medium anyway.

I've been a cable cutter for 5 to 6 years now so I like to have a collection of my favourite movies and tv shows available to watch when I just want some casual tv viewing and for when I have guests who want to watch TV but are wondering why I don't have cable.

When iTunes in the Cloud arrived for movies in Canada, I went on a shopping spree, spending north of $500 on that said collection. I already have them on DVDs (which I'll now sell) but what sold me on buying them on iTunes was that I could access them anywhere, have them stored in the cloud, ready to be viewed on an iPad, iPhone or AppleTV no matter where I am. I could have just easily ripped the DVDs but it's the storage and management of digital media that turned me off and it's the service I bought, not just the rights.

If this is taken away because a studio decided to pull movies from the iTunes store, it defeats the purpose and removes what people paid for. I paid for access to a movie in the cloud. Apple and the studios have an obligation to make good on their commitment to those who they sold the rights and service to. Sure, remove a movie from iTunes for future purchase but don't cut off the people who already paid for said rights and service.

Same boat as you for almost the same reasons. Agreed.

keenprotagonist
Sep 17, 2012, 11:57 AM
Automatic downloads and downloading previous purchases require iOS 4.3.3 or later on iPhone 3GS or later, iPod touch (3rd generation or later), or iPad; iOS 5 or later on iPhone 4 (CDMA model); or a Mac or PC with iTunes 10.3.1 or later. Previous purchases may be unavailable if they are no longer in the iTunes Store, App Store, or iBookstore. Downloading previous movie purchases requires iTunes 10.6 or later, iOS 5 or later, or Apple TV software 4.3 or later. Not all previously purchased movies are available for downloading to your other devices.

Ah, gee whiz. Right there on the iTunes page.

jlasoon
Sep 17, 2012, 12:31 PM
Isn't that only for DVDs?

And if so, let them catch me. As long as I'm not distributing, I feel fine about it.

Nope, any media with copy protection is covered. I always find it amusing how people rip on pirates, yet they turn around & violate the same law. Not saying that's you of course. :D

----------

Ah, gee whiz. Right there on the iTunes page.

Yep, I'll never buy anything from iTunes for this very reason. That content could disappear at any time.

MacDodger
Sep 17, 2012, 06:17 PM
Automatic downloads and downloading previous purchases require iOS 4.3.3 or later on iPhone 3GS or later, iPod touch (3rd generation or later), or iPad; iOS 5 or later on iPhone 4 (CDMA model); or a Mac or PC with iTunes 10.3.1 or later. Previous purchases may be unavailable if they are no longer in the iTunes Store, App Store, or iBookstore. Downloading previous movie purchases requires iTunes 10.6 or later, iOS 5 or later, or Apple TV software 4.3 or later. Not all previously purchased movies are available for downloading to your other devices. Download iTunes 10.7 free.

arbogast777
Sep 17, 2012, 07:01 PM
Would I be correct in saying though that if only used an iPad, you basically would have no way to backup your iTunes movie purchases like they suggest?

I still think the worse case senecio (where a movie you purchase is no longer available for you to watch) isn't as likely as some fear. The second it started to happen to enough people, the voices would get loud, companies would come under fire, and people would definitely stop purchasing. Just because they technically do it doesn't mean they would - the marketplace is a very powerful force.

brentsg
Sep 17, 2012, 10:17 PM
The issue here isn't any different than any other digital distribution system. If the content owner no longer offers the point of sale the right to distribute then it's gone. It's that simple.

At that point you either have a backup or you don't.

Phantom Gremlin
Sep 18, 2012, 05:32 AM
Yep, I'll never buy anything from iTunes for this very reason. That content could disappear at any time.

I have a slightly different philosophy:

Yep, I'll never buy any DRMed content from iTunes for this very reason. That content could disappear at any time.

I buy songs from iTunes, I buy music videos from iTunes. VLC plays those, I don't even care if all of iTunes disappears at some time in the future.

But if you "buy" something, like a movie, that's been locked down with DRM, then you haven't really bought it at all.

I would have thought that everyone would have learned this lesson. History teaches it over and over and over and over. E.g. here are just a few instances:

2007 - MLB rips off suckers (http://boingboing.net/2007/11/07/mlb-rips-off-fans-wh.html)
2008 - Wal-Mart rips off suckers (http://arstechnica.com/uncategorized/2008/09/wal-mart-latest-to-shut-down-drm-key-servers/)
2008 - Microsoft rips off suckers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure)

Maybe some of the above DRM shutdowns got reversed. Maybe they didn't. I'm too lazy to google any further, because they never affected me. I never drank the Kool-Aid.

ipedro
Sep 18, 2012, 10:03 AM
Some people here are missing the point. Yes, of course Apple has covered their ass and included disclaimers in the fine print. But at the same time they're falsely claiming that we're in a post PC world and that you don't need a computer. No, you cannot buy content on iTunes without having a computer because there is no other way to back it up.

Second, a lot of people are buying a service not just the rights to a movie. When I buy a movie on iTunes, I'm doing so because I can access it anywhere -- just like it says in Apple's ads and website.

If you don't think this is a big problem brewing, then just wait and see when a studio inevitably pulls out like NBC did for a while. During that period, all the movies from that studio will be gone from people's collections. That's millions of people complaining, Tweeting, writing blogs.

Apple needs to address this.

Jigga Beef
Sep 21, 2012, 12:08 PM
Where has apple advertised that we "are in a post PC world" you keep saying that like it some kind of decision the world has made and its law. Post PC world is great.

Yes the covered it in the fine print, which you clearly didn't read. Not their fault thats yours.

And no all of the people who only store things on the cloud will be pissed if NBC pulls their content, not people who saved the content to thier hard drive.

Again sucks you are having this problem but the issues you have encountered are you issues that apple clearly addressed in the "fine print"

You would be amazed at the what companies can say it ADs legally, i am sure none of apples ads are illegal even if the products don't work as you want them to.

HarbingerX
Sep 21, 2012, 01:11 PM
This debate will go on for some time yet. But the real problem is that in an entirely digital world, the existing licensing models don't work as well and we need to redefine them so that purchasing a digital version of a good is equivalent to owning a physical good.

To get there, we'll first have to have a class-action lawsuit, then it will need to go up to the US Supreme Court to rule.

Good news in Canada is that the Canadian Supreme Court did recently rule that 're-downloading' in iTunes did not constitute a 're-broadcast' (thus triggering radio airplay payments) and that the digital content should be considered the same as a physical music CD. So the there is some precedent set in other common-law jurisdictions for when it gets to the US Supreme Court.

It took Music in iTunes 8 years or so to break free from restrictive licenses and DRM. I think Movies will take much longer.

Once this becomes a reality, then if a purchase license gets pulled, Apple can just put the digital copy in every users personal cloud storage, as happens with iTunes Match today.

RipeRetina
Oct 2, 2012, 08:56 PM
I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?
:eek::mad:

pavelbure
Oct 3, 2012, 05:34 AM
I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?
:eek::mad:

I didn't buy it, but I did get a iTunes code from a blu ray and it's not showing up on my cloud list either.

Mr-Kerrse
Oct 3, 2012, 07:41 AM
Why are we in a post PC world ? If so why do Apple still sell Imac's, Laptops and Mac Pro's ?

I have apple tv's, ipads and iphones but also have an Imac so back up everything on there including anything bought and shared via the cloud :)

donrsd
Oct 3, 2012, 08:59 AM
I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?
:eek::mad:

I didn't buy it, but I did get a iTunes code from a blu ray and it's not showing up on my cloud list either.

Same issue here with Puss In Boots, it doesnt show up in iCloud.

I also have the same trouble with my bluray digital copy of Good Will Hunting......it doesnt show up on iCloud :mad:

Also my Ice Age Christmas Special & Kung Fu Panda 2 bluray digital copies wont show up on iCloud :mad:

sesnir
Oct 3, 2012, 09:40 AM
This is alarming. I've got a large library of movies and tv shows and I expect to keep them forever. A media library is an investment. I don't have the hard drive space required to backup everything I've purchased in iTunes, and I shouldn't have to.

Now I feel like I've got to keep an inventory of what I've purchased so I'll know if something goes missing one day...

I thought the cloud was ready for prime time, but if this is how it's going to be, then it's back to bluray for me.

Cartaphilus
Oct 3, 2012, 10:45 AM
Just asking because I don't know...

Can you back up a purchased movie to, say, Dropbox? I guess we have to consider both technical and legal issues, as well as the cost of renting the storage space from Dropbox.

How about those wifi enabled external hard drives, like GoFlex or Wi-Drive? Can you back up an iTunes purchased movie using an iOS device and one of those devices?


If either works, this may yet not be the end of the Post-PC world as we know it.

Rigby
Oct 3, 2012, 11:33 AM
Same issue here with Puss In Boots, it doesnt show up in iCloud.

I also have the same trouble with my bluray digital copy of Good Will Hunting......it doesnt show up on iCloud :mad:

Also my Ice Age Christmas Special & Kung Fu Panda 2 bluray digital copies wont show up on iCloud :mad:Don't know about the others, but Good Will Hunting is still available in the cloud for me:


http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/p96gctyk/img1.jpg

peeaanuut
Oct 3, 2012, 12:05 PM
why do people feel that when they purchase a movie or TV show or even music from Apple that apple is required to store and maintain it as well? its very simple, buy it on appletv, head to the computer and download it. How would you feel if your friend purchased a lawn mower from you, but made you store it and be required to have access to it whenever they wanted to? Then if you move, are you then required to give them continued access at your inconvenience to the lawnmower even if you move out of state?

Hard drives are cheap. Download the file, back it up. Done. Simple.

----------

This is alarming. I've got a large library of movies and tv shows and I expect to keep them forever. A media library is an investment. I don't have the hard drive space required to backup everything I've purchased in iTunes, and I shouldn't have to.

Now I feel like I've got to keep an inventory of what I've purchased so I'll know if something goes missing one day...

I thought the cloud was ready for prime time, but if this is how it's going to be, then it's back to bluray for me.

The cloud would be ready for primetime if people were willing to pay for it. But people think that it should be free or extremely cheap. They dont want to pay the costs of storage and maintaining it but they also dont want to pay someone else to do it either.

Going back to the lawnmower in my previous post.

You can cut your own lawn and its cheaper because you dont pay someone every week. The downside is you have to pay for the gas and the mower and store the mower and spend time cutting the grass. or you can pay a gardener. You cant expect a gardener to do it for free.

outphase
Oct 3, 2012, 01:47 PM
Just asking because I don't know...

Can you back up a purchased movie to, say, Dropbox? I guess we have to consider both technical and legal issues, as well as the cost of renting the storage space from Dropbox.

How about those wifi enabled external hard drives, like GoFlex or Wi-Drive? Can you back up an iTunes purchased movie using an iOS device and one of those devices?


If either works, this may yet not be the end of the Post-PC world as we know it.

iTunes videos have DRM, but they are still standard .m4v files and movable as such.

orestes1984
Oct 3, 2012, 02:07 PM
This is alarming...

This is why I have all of my data stored on a physical server at home that Apple can't touch. The fact that people trust the cloud :rolleyes: In Australia recently 3/4 of rental content miraculously disappeared because of a change in heart by movie studios. Why even put yourself at the will of this madness?

donrsd
Oct 3, 2012, 03:08 PM
Same issue here with Puss In Boots, it doesnt show up in iCloud.

I also have the same trouble with my bluray digital copy of Good Will Hunting......it doesnt show up on iCloud :mad:

Also my Ice Age Christmas Special & Kung Fu Panda 2 bluray digital copies wont show up on iCloud :mad:

Don't know about the others, but Good Will Hunting is still available in the cloud for me:


Image (http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/p96gctyk/img1.jpg)

Thats odd.
I just tried redownloading GWH the other night and it still didnt activate on iCloud.

Any recommendations?

sesnir
Oct 3, 2012, 04:39 PM
why do people feel that when they purchase a movie or TV show or even music from Apple that apple is required to store and maintain it as well?

Simple: http://www.apple.com/icloud/features/itunes-in-the-cloud/

"With iCloud, the music you purchase in iTunes appears automatically on all your devices. You can also download your past iTunes purchases. Where you want, when you want."

There's no asterisk there. It does not say "you can download your past iTunes purchases as long as the studio doesn't screw you over". (edit: I guess there is a footnote later in the page, but they still didn't have one in the header)

Cloud media needs to be treated on the same level as physical media. If I buy a blu-ray movie, then Amazon can't come to my house and steal it back because the studio told them to stop selling it. I paid for it, and it's mine now. This whole "you have a license to view it that can be revoked at any time" stuff is pure exploitation, and it's not mentioned in their advertising.

Likewise, it's up to Apple to make sure studios don't have the power to take away what I already paid for. They can remove it from the store for new sales, sure, but they should not legally be allowed to remove my access to it on a whim.

If none of this is possible, then they should stop advertising that iTunes in the cloud is meant to work like this.

Regarding music (since you mentioned it), iTunes Match is a paid service and they had better keep my music in the cloud because that's what I'm paying for. Access to simple purchase history is done by every single online store out there, usually for no extra cost. If I buy a game on Steam, and that game is removed (like Crysis 2 was for a while), it remains in my library because I already paid them for it. Why should iTunes act any different with movies?

peeaanuut
Oct 3, 2012, 05:45 PM
its in the terms that you agreed to. Try reading them sometime. Dont assume that a service works like another service because its the way you want it to. Dont like the terms, dont agree to the service. Take just a small bit of personal responsiblity.

brentsg
Oct 3, 2012, 06:40 PM
I remember reading this thread couple weeks ago. Didn't think much of it until now. I bought Puss In Boots for my daughter. Its missing! Anybody else missing this movie?
:eek::mad:

iTunes consistently reminds you to backup your content..

adbe
Oct 4, 2012, 08:28 PM
iTunes consistently reminds you to backup your content..

Then Apple needs to stop trumpeting the post-PC era, no?

How exactly do I backup my iDevices if I don't have a Mac or PC? To the cloud of course!

brentsg
Oct 4, 2012, 11:30 PM
Then Apple needs to stop trumpeting the post-PC era, no?

How exactly do I backup my iDevices if I don't have a Mac or PC? To the cloud of course!

You people take the post PC comments far too literally. People's usage patterns are shifting to devices such as tablets.. it's happening.

Does that mean that every single thing a traditional computer has done is no longer necessary? No.. it's a marketing phrase.

Chevy was the heartbeat of America. Was this BS because you still had to actually have a heart to live?

Regarding the content, you can be sure that Apple would prefer to continue distributing that content to everyone that had purchased it. The fact is that the studios hold the cards and what we see is the result of a give and take compromise.

adbe
Oct 5, 2012, 08:24 AM
You people take the post PC comments far too literally.

Silly me then.

People's usage patterns are shifting to devices such as tablets.. it's happening.


I thought I was taking it too seriously, but now you're saying it's a thing. So confused here.


Does that mean that every single thing a traditional computer has done is no longer necessary? No.. it's a marketing phrase.

Ooh, a strawman. Well played.

Post-PC simply means that a lot of people own desktop class hardware that they really don't need. I understand this. I persuaded my dad to switch his laptop out for an iPad, and he's never been happier. Apple see the iPad as the proper heir to the 'computer for the rest of us' throne. They're probably right.

That only works though when there is no need for another computer. The current hodge podge of cloud backup and data-management tools are no where near that point, and given the resources and legendary focus of Apple, that's kind of inexcusable.


Regarding the content, you can be sure that Apple would prefer to continue distributing that content to everyone that had purchased it. The fact is that the studios hold the cards and what we see is the result of a give and take compromise.

Except that I can load music into iTunes Match for which Apple does not have a content deal.

This is not a licensing issue, it's a laziness issue. Apple are quite capable of making movies that they no longer distribute into data-only storage on their servers. My guess is that they simply don't see this as a common enough thing that they care about it right now.

buddha86
Oct 5, 2012, 09:21 AM
I had purchased over $1000 worth of music from the iTunes store and still have every email receipt to prove it, but a few years ago I lost my hard drive containing my iTunes library. I tried the "Check for Available Downloads" option in iTunes and nothing showed up. I contacted Apple and was told that none of it was available anymore. I checked and the music was still there. Apple then told me it must have changed format or something, but that I would have to purchase my music again. AND this was before the cloud. iTunes store has always been that way. Total BS

mully1121
Oct 5, 2012, 10:12 AM
Silly me then.
This is not a licensing issue, it's a laziness issue. Apple are quite capable of making movies that they no longer distribute into data-only storage on their servers. My guess is that they simply don't see this as a common enough thing that they care about it right now.

Actually, I think it is still a licensing issue. If the entity holding the license changes and Apple does not have an agreement (or has a different agreement) with that entity then they can no longer distribute it. And yes, the studios would/do view that as distributing. Like it or not, a lot of the blame lies with the studios. Their approach to digital media has been nothing short of asinine. As a result we have to protect ourselves as consumers and that means backing up our digital purchases.

As far as this supposedly "Post-PC world" we live in, some people may choose to live that way (and maybe we're all headed there) but we are by no means there. I still very much live in a PC world and while I like the iPad and I love my Apple TV I use my computer much, much more than those devices. Frankly, all this does to me is highlight why the concept of the cloud is faulty. I don't trust anyone but myself to handle my data correctly.

adbe
Oct 5, 2012, 10:38 AM
Actually, I think it is still a licensing issue. If the entity holding the license changes and Apple does not have an agreement (or has a different agreement) with that entity then they can no longer distribute it. And yes, the studios would/do view that as distributing. Like it or not, a lot of the blame lies with the studios. Their approach to digital media has been nothing short of asinine. As a result we have to protect ourselves as consumers and that means backing up our digital purchases.


I agree with your overall assessment here, but I still feel that once a transaction has been made, Apple can in good faith store a movie as data. Technically it is not hard to do, Apple do it with Match, and legally as Amazon and Google have shown, it's acceptable[1].


As far as this supposedly "Post-PC world" we live in, some people may choose to live that way (and maybe we're all headed there) but we are by no means there. I still very much live in a PC world and while I like the iPad and I love my Apple TV I use my computer much, much more than those devices.


Some users will never be without their desktop, and some tasks will always be out of the reach of mobile devices. That's not in dispute.

Apple want customers to believe that a household without a PC can still be an iPhone household though, and for the most part that's true. Except for when it isn't.

Frankly, all this does to me is highlight why the concept of the cloud is faulty. I don't trust anyone but myself to handle my data correctly.

Personally, I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[1] If the famously aggressive litigants at the RIAA haven't gone there, there is probably no 'there' to go.

mully1121
Oct 5, 2012, 11:21 AM
I agree with your overall assessment here, but I still feel that once a transaction has been made, Apple can in good faith store a movie as data. Technically it is not hard to do, Apple do it with Match, and legally as Amazon and Google have shown, it's acceptable[1].

Technically its not hard to do but do they have the legal right to do it? I have no idea what terms Amazon and Google have gotten with the studios, nor do I have a clue what terms Apple has. I would assume, given their normally excellent customer service, they aren't just giving a big "screw you" to these customers and are not legally able to restore these items.

IApple want customers to believe that a household without a PC can still be an iPhone household though, and for the most part that's true. Except for when it isn't.

Their advertising may be misleading, I honestly don't pay attention to it much (I don't need much pushing to get me to buy their products :D) I would argue they aren't the only ones doing it. Everyone is pushing for this whole "lets keep everything in the cloud." And this was well before Apple started pushing iCloud.

Maybe the solution for iPad/iPhone users is some sort of cloud storage (completely separate from Apple) where they have more control over what they put in and take out and can do it free of a PC. I'm not sure if there are any services that really let you do that though and I know you'll end up having to pay some sort of yearly/monthly fee. You'll still run into the just the general "how reliable is the cloud?" issue of course but it may be a better long term solution if you truly want to go PC free.

adbe
Oct 5, 2012, 12:20 PM
Technically its not hard to do but do they have the legal right to do it?

No-one actually knows. But:


I have no idea what terms Amazon and Google have gotten with the studios,


They don't. The RIAA was quite public and vocal about their displeasure. They also threatened legal action. That never happened, and no-one really seems to think it is going to. This is distinct from the MP3.com case, because MP3.com were doing something more akin to iTunes Match, without a licensing agreement.

The distinction being that Google/Amazon only gives you access to what you personally uploaded, whereas Apple will replace the file with their own copy if they deem it appropriate. I.E. Google and Amazon are offering straight-up cloud storage that happens to do music indexing and tagging.

Apple could do likewise unless a) they're eager not to upset their content partners, or b) they just don't care enough.


Their advertising may be misleading, I honestly don't pay attention to it much (I don't need much pushing to get me to buy their products :D) I would argue they aren't the only ones doing it. Everyone is pushing for this whole "lets keep everything in the cloud." And this was well before Apple started pushing iCloud.


Yeah, but accessing previous purchases through iTunes doesn't really feel like the cloud to most people. I'd suggest most users would see that more like a company canceling a subscription service without refund. You buy the product with an understanding of access on demand, and at some point after taking your money, the supplier changes the terms against you.


Maybe the solution for iPad/iPhone users is some sort of cloud storage (completely separate from Apple) where they have more control over what they put in and take out and can do it free of a PC. I'm not sure if there are any services that really let you do that though and I know you'll end up having to pay some sort of yearly/monthly fee. You'll still run into the just the general "how reliable is the cloud?" issue of course but it may be a better long term solution if you truly want to go PC free.

That I think is really what's needed but since Apple make it so hard (for most people read impossible) to get media into an iDevice except through iTunes or the iTunes Store, that can't happen.

outphase
Oct 5, 2012, 12:39 PM
I had purchased over $1000 worth of music from the iTunes store and still have every email receipt to prove it, but a few years ago I lost my hard drive containing my iTunes library. I tried the "Check for Available Downloads" option in iTunes and nothing showed up. I contacted Apple and was told that none of it was available anymore. I checked and the music was still there. Apple then told me it must have changed format or something, but that I would have to purchase my music again. AND this was before the cloud. iTunes store has always been that way. Total BS

Why don't you look at the Purchased section of iTunes rather than the "Check for Available Downloads" which doesn't even do what you want it to do anyway.

peeaanuut
Oct 5, 2012, 01:13 PM
Apple isnt responsible for your lack of a proper back-up solution. if all your CDs became scratched, would you expect Tower Records to replace them all?

oosk2k11
Jul 26, 2013, 05:22 AM
Hey guys, your purchases may still be there. I also had this issue. Seems to be a common problem. But good news! I have a solution.

The purchases are merely hidden.

As copied from http://support.apple.com/kb/HT4919?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

To unhide your purchases
Open iTunes on your computer. You can download the latest version of iTunes here.
If you're not already signed in, choose Store > Sign in. If you're signed in, skip to step 4.
Enter your Apple ID and password, then click the Sign In button.
Choose Store > View My Account. (You may be asked to enter your password again).
Click on View Hidden Purchases from your Account Information page.
Choose a content type by clicking Music, TV shows, Apps, or Books from the top.
Click the Unhide button next to the item you would like to restore.
If you have too many to unhide individually, e-mail or Chat with iTunes Support and they'll unhide them for you.

Hope it helps. If it works, spread the word!

Cheers

ipedro
Sep 10, 2013, 02:38 PM
That wasn't it. Movies get delisted from iTunes and sometimes re-added under a different licensee. If you bought from the old license, you lose the movie you paid for unless you happened to go download it on iTunes and back it up.

This is still a major issue and nobody seems to want to address it.

Gjwilly
Sep 10, 2013, 06:43 PM
Because it's already been addressed.
Non-physical media is never owned -- only rented, borrowed, licensed,...... use whichever verb you like.
It's been that was since the very beginning of non-physical media.
You backup or you take the risk of possible loss.
I'm not defending Apple. That's just the nature of the beast.
It happened to WalMart's online customers and it can happen to Apple's.
Take it to the extreme -- Apple folds and closes its doors tomorrow.
All the iCloud servers are shut down.
What happens to your online purchases then?

2010mini
Sep 10, 2013, 09:35 PM
OP,

you have forgotten the first rule in computing SOS, save often stupid. Always, ALWAYS back up your content. You actually expect a company to guarantee you indefinite cloud storage?? That you are not paying for?? seriously???

ipedro
Sep 10, 2013, 10:32 PM
Apple is selling the concept of the post PC era and they're selling the idea that the AppleTV doesn't require a computer in the house. When you can buy content on a device without onboard storage and Apple is happy to sell it to you that way, then they have a responsibility of making that content available to you -- or at the very least, make it explicit that content that you own is about to be delisted and give you a chance to back it up. There's no excuse for what they're doing. Either they can deliver on the post PC promise or they can't. Right now, for licensing reasons they can't and they should be upfront about it.

musicpenguy
Sep 15, 2013, 01:02 AM
Apple is selling the concept of the post PC era and they're selling the idea that the AppleTV doesn't require a computer in the house. When you can buy content on a device without onboard storage and Apple is happy to sell it to you that way, then they have a responsibility of making that content available to you -- or at the very least, make it explicit that content that you own is about to be delisted and give you a chance to back it up. There's no excuse for what they're doing. Either they can deliver on the post PC promise or they can't. Right now, for licensing reasons they can't and they should be upfront about it.

That is factually incorrect - I have several movies in my iTunes in the Cloud library that are completely redownloadable and streamable (these are movies that were yanked from sale due to HBO or some other stupid reason). Back in March I believe they updated their terms with the movie studios to make this no longer an issue. I can provide examples if you'd like me to look some up. But, this is no longer an issue - I was furious when it used to be and got several refunds back when this was an issue. Believe me I have been following this issue closely.

Edit: Current example is Spielberg's The Terminal - no longer for sale - but still in my iTunes in the Cloud collection on Apple TV etc.

ipedro
Sep 16, 2013, 07:12 PM
If it's been fixed, it doesn't apply to previous purchases. I have many of them and my brother finally gave up on Apple after yet another movie (Universal Soldier) disappeared. Apple has not provided credits or even a redownloadible copy.

I'm a big Apple fan and I've evangelized about it for over a decade but this is indefensible.

Do you have a link to a story regarding these updated terms? I'd like to send it to my brother to reassure him that future purchases are safe.

EDIT: I found a current document (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2519?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US) on Apple's support page that makes it clear that previous purchases can disappear:

Previous purchases may be unavailable if they have been refunded or are no longer on the iTunes Store. Downloading previously purchased movies and TV shows requires iTunes 10.6 or later.
It is recommended that you always back up your iTunes library in the event that a purchased item is no longer available on the iTunes Store. For more information about backing up your library, see this article.

Now how do you back up a movie purchased on AppleTV if you don't own a computer? Apple sells the AppleTV as not needing a computer and indeed many homes these days only have an AppleTV and an iPad. How do you back up previously purchased content if you don't own a Mac and the AppleTV doesn't have internal storage?

Gjwilly
Sep 16, 2013, 07:29 PM
It's in the fine print [footnote 4] but the following is right on the front page when browsing the AppleTV in the Apple Store.
Previous purchases may be unavailable if they are no longer in the iTunes Store.

EthanNixon
Sep 17, 2013, 12:37 AM
So...I guess iTunes is the ONLY digital download platform you have used?

Did you read the iTunes Store's TOS? No, I figured.

South Park made a good episode, you should use that for research.

It's clearly stated in the iTunes TOS that when you make a purchase, you do not OWN the product, but you are paying for a license to use said product.

RabidMacFan
Sep 17, 2013, 02:16 AM
Apple isnt responsible for your lack of a proper back-up solution. if all your CDs became scratched, would you expect Tower Records to replace them all?

Of course Apple is responsible! The tagline for iCloud is "iCloud is the easiest way to manage your content. Because you now you don't have to." - http://www.apple.com/icloud/features/


If Tower records said they will store all your records purchases in the cloud for you to access later, they damn well better store them for access in the future! That is the entire proposition of the cloud! There are no scratched disks!

Sander
Sep 17, 2013, 05:33 AM
Apple isnt responsible for your lack of a proper back-up solution. if all your CDs became scratched, would you expect Tower Records to replace them all?

Actually, yes. And the media industry brought this upon themselves. The naive view of "buying" a CD (or a movie on disc) is that you subsequently "own" the content, and would be free to back it up. The media industry cleverly circumvented this by saying you actually buy two things: The medium (disc), plus the "license" to view the content. But if that is the case, then I should be allowed to buy a BD version of the same content for a reduced price if I can show I already paid for the license when I bought the DVD. Even if one argues "but with the BD you're getting more pixels of that same content", then it should at least be (almost) free to download an SD version of a movie to stream it to my iPad, and I should certainly be allowed to backup, format-shift, or whatever. However, most content owners have been extremely queasy about this idea.

Incidentally, Disney does replace damaged DVDs at reduced cost (presumably just the cost of the disc + shippng and handling). See the Disney website (http://www.disneystudioshelp.com/DVD_Help.html).

Apple seems to have broken some ground here with their iTunes Match thing and with movies in the cloud, but I agree with the OP that they should take a firm stand for their customers and against the distributors, saying "This customer has paid their license to view the content - we are going to make sure this customer will have access to this content forever." They'll probably have to convince the distributor that they will not make this content available to new people who haven't paid the license in the past - even if they may have to concede and let distributors disallow selling of new licenses.

The argument "it's in the small print" doesn't hold water in my humble opinion. It's something Apple might choose to hide behind, but I can't understand why we customers feel the need to defend this. Apple clearly advertizes the notion that the cloud is the backup.

Personally, I don't believe in the cloud at all, for exactly these reasons.

mactumors
Sep 17, 2013, 05:50 AM
"The Tree of Life" is currently not available for purchase in the store, but I can still download it.

Not the best example, as they would be doing you a favor if they deleted that movie from your collection. ;)

musicpenguy
Sep 17, 2013, 11:34 AM
If it's been fixed, it doesn't apply to previous purchases. I have many of them and my brother finally gave up on Apple after yet another movie (Universal Soldier) disappeared. Apple has not provided credits or even a redownloadible copy.

I'm a big Apple fan and I've evangelized about it for over a decade but this is indefensible.

Do you have a link to a story regarding these updated terms? I'd like to send it to my brother to reassure him that future purchases are safe.

EDIT: I found a current document (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2519?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US) on Apple's support page that makes it clear that previous purchases can disappear:



Now how do you back up a movie purchased on AppleTV if you don't own a computer? Apple sells the AppleTV as not needing a computer and indeed many homes these days only have an AppleTV and an iPad. How do you back up previously purchased content if you don't own a Mac and the AppleTV doesn't have internal storage?

That is an outdated article - if you load up iTunes in the Cloud ALL OF YOUR MOVIES ARE THERE - I am assuming you are in the United States - because that feature may not be global yet

When iTunes in the Cloud launched I reclaimed 10-20 old movies that were long lost - this is not an issue anymore unless you are outside the USA

charlituna
Sep 21, 2013, 09:29 AM
Some people here are missing the point. Yes, of course Apple has covered their ass and included disclaimers in the fine print. But at the same time they're falsely claiming that we're in a post PC world and that you don't need a computer.



1. They addressed the possibility up front, your brother just wasn't paying attention. Ignorance of the contents of things you agree to, just like the law, is not the other parties issue. It's yours

2. No one at Apple ever said you don't need a computer. That's like the claim that Steve Jobs said styluses are useless and dumb. Cook's statement was that e traditional desktop/notebook computer was no longer the center of folks computing world. Not the same thing as saying they aren't needed

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I had purchased over $1000 worth of music from the iTunes store and still have every email receipt to prove it, but a few years ago I lost my hard drive containing my iTunes library. I tried the "Check for Available Downloads" option in iTunes and nothing showed up. I contacted Apple and was told that none of it was available anymore. I checked and the music was still there. Apple then told me it must have changed format or something, but that I would have to purchase my music again. AND this was before the cloud. iTunes store has always been that way. Total BS

If you bought it before the whole 'in the cloud' then you agreed to terms that let you download it once and if you didn't back it up etc that was on you. And yes much of the music did change formats. To the iTunes plus files! which were different than what you bought which was removed from the store en masse etc.

You agreed to the one time thing when you bought the music so Apple just played by the rules.

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Now how do you back up a movie purchased on AppleTV if you don't own a computer?

That is your issue not Apple's. They have made it very clear that if you want a guarantee of access you need to download the files etc. How you achieve that is for you to figure out.

RollTide1017
Sep 21, 2013, 10:26 AM
This is why I'll never stop buying Blu-rays. Most come with digital copies that I can use in iTunes or UV and if they disappear from those services I still have the disc.

I'll never trust digital distribution 100%, I'll always want a physical copy. I still buy CDs, not for all my music but I still get CDs for some of it. At least music is easier to backup then movies because of the smaller file size, I have 3 backups of my music collection at all times.

donrsd
Sep 22, 2013, 01:10 AM
I still don't know why some of my digital copies that USED TO SHOW on my Apple TV aren't there anymore!!??

Off the top of my head.....


ACT OF VALOR
GOOD WILL HUNTING
RISE OF THE PLANET OF THE APES


:mad::mad::mad::mad:

brentsg
Sep 22, 2013, 01:51 AM
I still don't know why some of my digital copies that USED TO SHOW on my Apple TV aren't there anymore!!??

Off the top of my head.....


ACT OF VALOR
GOOD WILL HUNTING
RISE OF THE PLANET OF THE APES


:mad::mad::mad::mad:

Rise of the Planet of the Apes is certainly still there for me.

thefredelement
Sep 24, 2013, 06:25 PM
Couldn't Apple just keep a list of what account gets what movies? It's not a users fault for not filling up their hard drive with stuff that they say will be available in the cloud for later consumption. It really doesn't make much sense, I realize Apple is working inside of a pretty crazy system with all this media but it's really all about the users at the end of the day.

We're in a cloud based, solid state local storage world these days, I don't want to invest hundreds into a physical media backup solution.

musicpenguy
Sep 25, 2013, 06:59 AM
Couldn't Apple just keep a list of what account gets what movies? It's not a users fault for not filling up their hard drive with stuff that they say will be available in the cloud for later consumption. It really doesn't make much sense, I realize Apple is working inside of a pretty crazy system with all this media but it's really all about the users at the end of the day.

We're in a cloud based, solid state local storage world these days, I don't want to invest hundreds into a physical media backup solution.

They currently do that perhaps download codes from BR don't have the same access rights as purchases because I stream content not for sale because Apple knows what I've bought.

foodog
Sep 25, 2013, 08:59 AM
...and people wonder why Piracy is so attractive...

Image (http://fim.413chan.net/art/src/132711537550-shifty-eyes_o_GIFSou.gif)

Agreed. Piracy doesn't fix this issue.... at least until a cloud based solution is fielded.:rolleyes:

Larsennet
Sep 26, 2013, 08:26 AM
The movie "Carrie" has been removed from my purchased list and it's not hidden. I have about 160 movies and that is the only one missing, not sure why.

Che Castro
Sep 26, 2013, 10:38 AM
The movie "Carrie" has been removed from my purchased list and it's not hidden. I have about 160 movies and that is the only one missing, not sure why.

Did you download the movie ?

Larsennet
Sep 26, 2013, 01:41 PM
Did you download the movie ?

Yes, so it's not a big issue just inconvenient.

It's odd because the movie is on iTunes but now only to rent. Yet I have Transformers still available to download from the cloud but completely removed from the store.

brentsg
Sep 26, 2013, 03:04 PM
Yes, so it's not a big issue just inconvenient.

It's odd because the movie is on iTunes but now only to rent. Yet I have Transformers still available to download from the cloud but completely removed from the store.

Definitely send Apple an inquiry and post what they say..

Phantom Gremlin
Sep 26, 2013, 11:47 PM
Non-physical media is never owned -- only rented, borrowed, licensed,...... use whichever verb you like.

Really?

Just now I went to iTunes Store. The very first item under "Music" is an album by Drake, titled "Nothing Was The Same". I clicked on this album and was presented a screen that says:

$13.99 Buy

It says "Buy", it doesn't say "rent", or "borrow" or "license". It doesn't say "Buy a license".

Why does Apple get to pervert the usage of a "verb" that has a very simple meaning to most people?

Take it to the extreme -- Apple folds and closes its doors tomorrow.
All the iCloud servers are shut down.
What happens to your online purchases then?

Here we agree. You still have the responsibility to store your "purchases". And never buy anything DRMed. E.g. check out "Microsoft PlaysForSure" to see how the evil empire tried to screw people over with their "purchased" music.

spacepower7
Sep 29, 2013, 02:45 AM
Really?

Just now I went to iTunes Store. The very first item under "Music" is an album by Drake, titled "Nothing Was The Same". I clicked on this album and was presented a screen that says:

$13.99 Buy

It says "Buy", it doesn't say "rent", or "borrow" or "license". It doesn't say "Buy a license".

Why does Apple get to pervert the usage of a "verb" that has a very simple meaning to most people?



Here we agree. You still have the responsibility to store your "purchases". And never buy anything DRMed. E.g. check out "Microsoft PlaysForSure" to see how the evil empire tried to screw people over with their "purchased" music.

It doesn't say "Own" either. You never own music regardless of medium. Either CD or Download, you don't own it in any legal sense of the word.

You are complaining about Apple's wording but not the 20 years industry standard? I think that there is a bigger picture that you should be complaining about.

Larsennet
Oct 1, 2013, 12:41 PM
Definitely send Apple an inquiry and post what they say..

It ended up coming back on it's own also it's now available to buy again.

These can still come and go.

MagnusVonMagnum
Oct 1, 2013, 02:22 PM
This is a serious flaw with the movie studios and their licensing terms not with iTunes. You are misrepresenting the problem to imply that Apple is somehow at fault, or that they owe you something. They don't.

Bullcrap. It IS Apple's fault. They should not sell something the have NO RIGHT to sell and they should make this plain when they put the word "Buy" in front of a movie that it means "temporarily lease" instead.