Tablet PC's

[arn]

This CNet article (http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-8503191.html?tag=mn_hd) details Sony's withdrawl of it's Pen Tablet computer from the marketplace:
Slow sales are leading Sony Electronics, the PC division of the Japanese electronics giant, to rapidly phase out one of its more glamorous product lines--the Vaio Slimtop Pen Tablet--the company has confirmed. The computer came with a touch screen that allowed people to draw images directly onto the monitor and run Windows applications with a stylus.

Just an indication of the marketplace interest in such a device... especially for those of us who would want Apple to create a similar form-factor device.

[blakespot]

Oh, the PDA is definitely safer ground than the Pen Tablet. And that's still a sticky area to venture...


blakespot

[Kid Red]

hahaha, didn't Billy boy just release one the day of MWSF?

[menoinjun]

Actually, the sony computer that had the touchscreen was also a smaller, upright formfactor. We sold a couple different models at CompUSA, and none of them ever sold well due to the higher than average price. Many people were interested, butnone wanted to pay the premium.

-pete

[eric_n_dfw]

Oh boy! Sony's going down - I can hear the press now, "The beleagured Sony today anounced that due to lack of sales, the former market leader is quietly backing out of one of thier key markets..."

Oh - wait... those kind of comments are reserved for Apple only.

Never mind!

[Unregistered]

I remember discussing about this device when it was presented.
A nonsense devie with no future, and so obviously so.

[MojoJojo]

It was a useless piece of ****. The Japanese are great at some things, but inspired design isn't one of them. Why the **** would anyone want to control windoze® with their finger or a stylus, let alone control it all.

win-trolls are uninspired, scared sheeple.

[ThlayliTheFierce]

A tablet device will sell well when it hooks up with a base unit, communicates wirelessly with that base unit, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. If Apple could do that for $1800, I think they'd sell.

[lazyrighteye@hotmail.com]

MojoJojo,
The "win-trolls" line made it worth my trip to the forum today. Thanks. =)
lazyrighteye

[Jesus uses a mac]

Sony is having trouble selling what...other then that pc tablet. Whats not selling well?

[mymemory]

The problem with that sony product is:
1. Is not made by Apple.
2. It doesn't have the Aple logo.
3. There is not any Steve Job's like fooling around with it.
4. Too expensive.
5. For the PC market well all the creative a fun people are not.

The right product in the wrong hands.

[Unregistered]

All it was was a stylus controlling the mouse! There was no handwriting input/recognition, etc. It was doubly weird b/c when you removed the stylus, the pointer just stayed where it was, and would then "jump" to wherever you placed it next - very unnatural. I don't know how you'd solve that (using a standard, desktop OS), but PDA devices with NO pointer work much better.

It seemed like a neat concept until you realized that it did nothing differently.

[kansaigaijin]

did not sell because it was way too expensive for a windows product. doesnt somebody else (wacom?) make a similar input device for plug in like a regular tablet or keyboard. I see it all the time in my local Sofmap store. Sold on both sides of the store . . . about \40,000.

Also, why get so wound up about something that doesnt affect you, the sony was a windows thing. Also sony does try to make new products, the MD is still big here. At least they tried. No Dells here dude.

[cplmd]

The Sony Pen Tablet PC wan NOT a tablet pc. It is not what many of us are asking for.
It was a DESKTOP with a flat panel (like the new iMac) that you could write on the screen with a stylus - had no software other than Sony's to take advantage of this capability. It was not a handheld and not a tablet pc!

Do a little research before you make a decision on something!!!!:p

[dantec]

but they suck...

Everyone here in Switz 2-3 years ago bought a M.D. cause it was the "thing" to have... Now most of them have been e-bayed... and MP3 players have filled in those spots, or even the CD-player has returned in some cases...

NO-one, I havn't even seen anyone use a M.D. for about a year...

Mines just collecting dust on my nightstand.

[kansaigaijin]

Originally posted by cplmd
The Sony Pen Tablet PC wan NOT a tablet pc. It is not what many of us are asking for.
It was a DESKTOP with a flat panel (like the new iMac) that you could write on the screen with a stylus - had no software other than Sony's to take advantage of this capability. It was not a handheld and not a tablet pc!

Do a little research before you make a decision on something!!!!:p
I know what the sony was, it was way too expensive. I played with it in London Drugs in Canada and in stores in Japan. Sony could't get the cost down to what people were willing to pay for something like that. That is why it was relevent to what you want. The cost to make a mobile pen input HW recognising thingy would not make it profitatble that is why nobody makes one.
And again why are you so angry?

[usa4jer]

no wonder the damn thing didn't sell. what the hells the point of having a "tablet" when its stuck to the dang computer? i want an all in one tablet device, something i can keep on my lap and draw on while i'm sitting on the couch wasting away watching TV. i want something the size of an imac display that can play CDs (standard CD-Rom would be fine for this, methinks) and comes with an airport card that can seamlessly talk to my G4 and the internet at the same time. and i want it to have a 20 hour battery. and it should hang on my wall as a really nice pictureframe/server when i'm not using it. and i want to pay no more than $1200 for it. serves sony right for ripping off apple's every design. apple can do it, i know they can. oh, and i want a G5 chip in it, but i think that was obvious already. and if this ain't released come seybold, well, i can't be held responsible for my actions. i don't think i'm being unreasonable here people. who's with me? someone? anyone? ahh, the hell with all of you, i'm going to make a hotpocket.

[mischief]

Yes!!!! Finally someone comprehends! A small, simple device. Maybe not even USB/FW equipped. Only 2 slight variances though: Client, not server and add an IR port to control consumer electronics like your home entertainment centre from the desktop a la universal remote.:cool:

[MojoJojo]

Originally posted by lazyrighteye@hotmail.com
MojoJojo,
The "win-trolls" line made it worth my trip to the forum today. Thanks. =)
lazyrighteye

Hey, which do you think should be my new sig on my emails?:

"Win-trolls are uninspired, scared sheeple."

"BLEAT, win- sheeple, BLEAT!"

"Yo, win-troll, keep your snout buried deep in the sheep's ass in front of you; be a good little sheeple."

[mischief]

Stick with the first one.

[cplmd]

Originally posted by kansaigaijin

I know what the sony was, it was way too expensive. I played with it in London Drugs in Canada and in stores in Japan. Sony could't get the cost down to what people were willing to pay for something like that. That is why it was relevent to what you want. The cost to make a mobile pen input HW recognising thingy would not make it profitatble that is why nobody makes one.
And again why are you so angry?

Angry?? please - this is just a new group!!!

My comment was directed at:
"Just an indication of the marketplace interest in such a device... especially for those of us who would want Apple to create a similar form-factor device."

I have yet to see anyone one here asking for pen-input on a Mac Flat Panel desktop - which is what Sony's Pen Tablet PC was - a desktop not a tablet and certainly not portable -

But because some saw tablet and didn't look any further and they dismiss the whole tablet concept - something a company that controls the other 98% of the computing market IS interested in.

Therefore, some of us would like to see Apple use it's design genius at making a tablet device, given that I don't think Apple will win the desktop war perhaps it can in the next area of computing.

Which of course leads to the question WHAT IS the next area of computing or are desktops all we will ever have????????:D

[kansaigaijin]

I don't think it will be a tablet with screen viewer.
It will be a giant wall screen plasma with wireless input, voice etc. 40 to 60 inches. All the bits will be in closet somewhere. You won't be looking at any desk top box thingy.
The MS announcement? Vapourware.

The Wacom tablet, way to expensive. Saw one today, but forgot how much, I think over Y100,000

[kansaigaijin]

I don't think it will be a tablet with screen viewer.
It will be a giant wall screen plasma with wireless input, voice etc. 40 to 60 inches. All the bits will be in closet somewhere. You won't be looking at any desk top box thingy.
The MS announcement? Vapourware.

The Wacom tablet, way to expensive. Saw one today, but forgot how much, I think over Y100,000

Check the site,
For comfort and convenience, Cintiq features a removable pen holder that can be attached to either side and adjusted to your preferred height and angle. The Cintiq stand allows you to easily adjust the angle of your Cintiq screen between 18 and 73 degrees - and you can even remove the stand to comfortably rest the Cintiq in your lap.

the price just $1899. thats understandable, anything in Yen over a hundred thousand (ju man yen) and my brain goes numb. a 64 bit number there.

[cplmd]

I have a problem with thinking the NEXT thing will be one thing!

So little of the world population even uses computers that those of us who do forget where the real market is. Given that with the current tech economy is in a bit of a slow down, who is going to spend money on new tech products? Then when you figure out who will spend the money then the question is what do they want.

Most people replace a desktop computer every two to three years. Hand helds from one year to 18 months and cell phones vary by location - 18 months in US, 12 in europe and 9 in Japan. So, will most of us who have desktops already be buying alot of new desktops - unless your at Genetech - no. Sure maybe as a second or third but not really fertile like the big days of the 90's.

So you need first time buyers who finally take the plunge and an new iMac is a great choice for them. But I don't think that will be a huge market.

What could be big is many things. I like your big screen idea but mainly for things that need a big screen - movies, family photo albums review or teleconferenceing.

But on the other hand, a small hand held object to control it and all the other devices in the house might have a place too.

When you think about reaching all the other people who are computer phobic (or deprived :) ) I think you need to look at how they do things and what device or service you can offer them to replace or improve that.

So I think the next big thing is not a device but a concept, access to information any where at any time. Not just at a desktop or sitting with a laptop but anywhere. Cars, walking, standing using voice to control and display of a nice screen to fit the information provided.

What we need is a revolution in software, specifically networking software, allowing you to use any device in the home and office network of your choice.

Is a tablet sized pc one way of doing that, providing a window to the info you need? yes. Is it the only way? no.

So if I am going to dream and ask then let me have a nice large wall screen and a tiny hand held or even an audio only network device and some screen sizes in between. But most importantly, let them be able to share information and capabilities between each other without any input from the user so that anyone could use these devices.

[mischief]

The tablet device Bill Gates described in his "M$ Digital Hub" IS real. I cannot divulge how I know this as it would bankrupt an immediate relative (It's Ironic- I have one working for each side). But the device is 18 months into case and interface design. I have confirmation of 802.11 compliance. The X-Box will be M$'s tie in to conventional consumer electronics.

Any evidence we can find for a similar Apple device must be scrutinized as such a device could change the market significantly.

My best interpretation of the Ives/Jobs/Woz Tablet would be a netpliance remote-booted from your iTools account (no significant HD) and run an 800 Mhz Apollo. Maybe 2 SODIMM slots@133Mhz. The device could, in later stages be used as a "portable KVM" for other Airport capable machines. Note: If the Skycom satellites get placed in time this means your home LAN could be treated as a single system spewing as many desktops as logged users from diverse, sometimes remote locations.

Has anyone thought about the "clustering" capabilities of such a network? With diffuse universal Airport service both processor and communications bandwidth could be holographically expanded.

:cool:

These extrapolations cover about ten years worth of projection into the potentialities so don't get uptight about the broad brush-strokes.

[Six]

Is there anything different between the sony thing that was axed and the "revolutionary product" that billy-willy introduced the day of the expo?

[mischief]

The M$ device is a web appliance free of any base other than a charging cradle. Whether it will run XP or some new "windoze Lite" has yet to be determined. It will have a few surface buttons and an optical drive. I'm not sure how but it seems to be tied in with TiVo. My guess is M$ is attempting a "Digital Hub" that uses TiVo for storage, X-Box for processing and a Tablet as a default interface.

[networkman]

i would like to see both a tablet mac you can carry around and a mac desktop which you can draw on with a stylus like the sony computer i saw at metreon

apple does have to innovate its way out of the tech downturn, but that goes with every high tech company ever in this industry since the beginning

[kansaigaijin]

the Wacom draw on LCD screen (yes you can take it off the base and play with it in your lap, but no it is not wireless) costs $1899.00 . Does not include computer. Do the math.

[cplmd]

a Wacom kludge is the last things I wanna think about as a solution for mobile access to data.....

the more I think about Apple, Jobs' ego and such.....

I am ready for the Apple Cell Phone - the iTalk!!!!!!!

[kansaigaijin]

retail LCD display $500.
semi mobile pen input LCD $1899
get the point?
I doubt it.

[cplmd]

Originally posted by kansaigaijin
retail LCD display $500.
semi mobile pen input LCD $1899
get the point?
I doubt it.

Oh I probably get more points than you imagine -
personal attacks usually indicate the small mindedness of the induhvidual making them for one.

Hopefully, you are more tolerant of differing opinions in your real world - then again I don't really care.

The rest of us may know of more than two options to choose for device platforms - especially in a newsgroup discussion forum not much above brain storming sessions.

Oh, and lastly, this is a discussion on Tablet PC's - the whole ball of wax not the pen input kludge you are limitedly and ignorantly refering to - the rest of us are discussing something far beyond the device you refer to - so get over it and the attitude.

[Timothy]

OK...I'll admit my bias up front. I want/need a Newton replacement. I think PDAs are still the future, and I think Apple has all the technology it needs to build a great and revolutionary PDA.

Additionally, I believe that this focus on Tablets takes away from the idea of a great PDA. Can they both exist? Sure, but that is not how Apple has decided to innovate. One product at a time...

However, I just don't "get" the tablet concept. I don't see any real niche or need that it fills that isn't already well-served by other products. Can someone explain to me what a tablet will do for you now that you can't do already?

The only thing I can see is if you are an artist and want a digital drawing pad to use remotely. But, if you are a normal user, and just want to do normal computing stuff, surfing the web, writing letters, graphic design work...then in what way is a tablet better than a laptop?

Pen input is only the "best" choice when a keyboard is impractical. For example, when I'm standing in a line at the grocery store, I can't very well pull out my laptop and type. So, I need pen input. And a tablet as I understand it is not really "mobile" outside of the home.

I have a g3 powerbook with an airport card. I use it while watching TV. I use it while sitting out back on the deck. I use it in bed at night. I read the Sunday paper on it. I use it to read this and other forums. I can't imagine choosing to use pen input to type this message if a keyboard is readily available. So, why would I use a tablet instead of my laptop?

Can someone explain it to me?

[mischief]

The Ergonomics studies at Apple are (believe it or not) EXHAUSTIVE. The bonus to a Tablet as opposed to a laptop are in substituting the ergonomically-worst keyboard possible (the laptop keyboard) for simple fingertip and stylus input. Add to this the Apple Handwriting-recognition features and you'll never go back.

As to a PDA: It's a passing fad. The average consumer will no more use a PDA than use a Datawatch.

A PDA is a nice concept until you have to weigh the $200.00++ cost against a food budget. Where as a Tablet would fit the Laptop slot, and as such would justify higher expense.

Does a PDA have a HD? No.
Does it have a real processor? No.
Does it have an optical drive? No.
Is it capable of running OS X? No.
Does it take standard RAM? No.

As the answer to all of the above is No Apple will not produce a PDA.Get over it.PDA's are Geek candy. If Apple wanted to spend a few million dollars developing Geek Candy, we'd have Apple Athlons.

[PyroTurtle]

then i'll just have to make a tablet PDA...

[Timothy]

Them's fightin' words! :p

Mishcief states:
The Ergonomics studies at Apple are (believe it or not) EXHAUSTIVE. The bonus to a Tablet as opposed to a laptop are in substituting the ergonomically-worst keyboard possible (the laptop keyboard) for simple fingertip and stylus input. Add to this the Apple Handwriting-recognition features and you'll never go back.

On my best day, my handwriting on my Newton was around 30 wpm. On my laptop, my rate is around 50-60 wpm. My mother types at around 100 wpm. So, even with your assertion that the keyboard is "ergonimically-worst" I am still faster typing than I am writing. I don't think that this will ever shift; it is faster to push 1 key then it is to do the stroke of that same letter. So, in terms of efficiency, a full-sized keyboard is still better.

A PDA is a nice concept until you have to weigh the $200.00++ cost against a food budget. Where as a Tablet would fit the Laptop slot, and as such would justify higher expense.

What? Why does a PDA take away from the food budget while a Tablet wouldn't? That makes no sense. I just don't get the complaint of paying money for a functional PDA. Many people will spend $500-$1000 on a digital camera, which they'll use once-per-month. A PDA will be used multiple times per day, and for a much wider range of uses.

Does a PDA have a HD? The iPod has shown that a small, portable device can effectively use a HD.

Does it have a real processor? Sure...why not?

Does it have an optical drive? Not needed.

Is it capable of running OS X? Not needed.

Does it take standard RAM? Why is this important?

You are comparing the feature sets of a tablet with a PDA. I am trying to explain that only a PDA fills any needed niche. I'll ask again...where will you use your Tablet that you can't already use a laptop? You see...if I can get a perfectly functional laptop for less...why would I spend more on a tablet?

For me, the PDA is the computing device that I take with me everywhere. Sure, I have a laptop, but how often do I really take it out with me? To the movies? To the grocery store? To the post office? Never. The laptop is not meant for these uses...and neither will a Tablet be useful here either.

[mischief]

Tell me:

Do you have tendonitis yet?

How many Geek Toys do you own?

Has your PDA paid for itself?

Are you an "average user"?

Can you rattle off more than 3 digits of Pi by rote?

Do you own a Data watch?

what's your yearly income?

Yearly expendatures?

If there was a device that bridged the gap between PDA's and Laptops, would you buy one?

[Timothy]

Do you have tendonitis yet?

No...but I don't see this as the issue at hand either. If you are arguing that you'd prefer a better computing input device, than that is a discussion we can have. But guess what...the keyboard is likely to be the key input component for the next 30 years. Wanna bet?

How many Geek Toys do you own?

I always hold off new technology purchases until I believe that the unit will actually fill a needed niche in my daily routine, and do so better, faster, and/or cheaper than the alternative. If I am going to spend more on a product, then it has to do more. For example, I lusted after the Newton 100, but didn't buy until the Newton 2000.

Has your PDA paid for itself?

My Newton paid for itself. My Handspring Visor hasn't.

Are you an "average user"?

No...but I have daily, average uses that I need a PDA to provide.

Can you rattle off more than 3 digits of Pi by rote?

No...

Do you own a Data watch?

No...

what's your yearly income?

Never enough...

Yearly expendatures?

Slightly less than the above...

If there was a device that bridged the gap between PDA's and Laptops, would you buy one?

You mean the current PDAs? Yes...

[mischief]

I see you're heavily invested in Geek Chique. Well, outside M$ land and in places where $$$$ and rent do not line up there is less room to buy such meaningless toys.

Keyboards for 30 years? Bah.

Geek toys: Don't dodge a key credability question.

If you would buy such a device, don't push PDA's on a Tablet PC Thread.

[Timothy]

But, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed. What niche does a Tablet provide?

So far, Mischief has asserted that a tablet fills the "I hate to type" niche. I just don't think that is a compelling enough reason for enough people to pay MORE for something a laptop does for less.

So, again, what do those of you advocating for Tablets consider the market niche to be?

[cplmd]

Excellent posts ...

Originally posted by Timothy
OK...I'll admit my bias up front. I want/need a Newton replacement. I think PDAs are still the future, and I think Apple has all the technology it needs to build a great and revolutionary PDA.

Additionally, I believe that this focus on Tablets takes away from the idea of a great PDA. Can they both exist? Sure, but that is not how Apple has decided to innovate. One product at a time...

I agree that computing will move beyond the keyboard/workstation but I think Tablets and PDAs are synergistic rather than antagonistic in technological innovation and development.

Originally posted by Timothy
However, I just don't "get" the tablet concept. I don't see any real niche or need that it fills that isn't already well-served by other products. Can someone explain to me what a tablet will do for you now that you can't do already?

...

Pen input is only the "best" choice when a keyboard is impractical. For example, when I'm standing in a line at the grocery store, I can't very well pull out my laptop and type. So, I need pen input. And a tablet as I understand it is not really "mobile" outside of the home.

Actually, I know of a very big niche that needs a portable, keyboard-less, data entry and display device where wireless networks already exist -- healthcare. Multiple studies and reccomendations over the past 3 years push for a complete electronic medical record to reduce errors and increase efficiency in a very expensive endevour. Current tablets to access and input patient data suck but we still use them because the other options are worse.

Just as Apple has made a push in one vertical market - education - so it could explore healthcare, which is not in a recession now and actually continues to grow.

Originally posted by Timothy
I have a g3 powerbook with an airport card. I use it while watching TV. I use it while sitting out back on the deck. I use it in bed at night. I read the Sunday paper on it. I use it to read this and other forums. I can't imagine choosing to use pen input to type this message if a keyboard is readily available. So, why would I use a tablet instead of my laptop?

Can someone explain it to me?

I agree inputing all this would be cumbersome without a keyboard but think of all the other things you listed. How many requires any text input and how much of that text is actually forms, most of them the same data that should be pre-filled. All the reading, browsing and surfing could just as easily be done with a smaller lighter unit of a screen only and pen for clicking.

As to mischief's post

I agree that the ergonomics of a tablet are such that it could replace a laptop rather than be considered a NEW platform. A USB port or geekier Bluetooth link could add the keyboard when needed for more appropriate applications.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mischief
Does a PDA have a HD? No. but with a wireless network link does it need one?
Does it have a real processor? No. A cpu is a cpu is a cpu - it has one.
Does it have an optical drive? No. Nor do some laptops, the point? see first question.
Is it capable of running OS X? No. Neither does an iPod, does that make it less useful to do it's assigned task?
Does it take standard RAM? No. Standard?? DIMM, SODIMM, DDR? Again so what? Are CF, SM and Memory considered STANDARD then yes.

I have used a passing fad of a PDA to do my job accesing patient information, schedules, drug perscribing and look up and send and receive critical messages for two years. I just would like someone to do it better. Almost 20 years ago I bought a different kind of computer to do things better because I wasn't satisfied with my IBM PC. I really wish the same company would do it again :)

[mischief]

Assuming that Apple will take the waste-not-want not approach and use the Handwriting-recognition technology from Newton for an actual product, such a product would occupy the slot currently occupied by iBook. A consumer portable with no keyboard and all or most of the features of a "whole" portable.

The PDA niche is too narrow not to get squeezed out by a line of streamlined portables aimed at the average, non-typist consumer. It's a stopgap, like a steam engine. Eventually a better solution will pop up and PDA's will be $10.00 at K-Mart.

The whole point to a Tablet PC is a better input device. The existing keyboard is designed for expediancy of the immediate sort. If I want to spit out 300 WPM fine, but I assure you that continuous typing on the average keyboard WILL cost you the use of your hands. If you relate income to WPM then you could either be rich, or hold a coffee cup. It's up to you. Though I must say, if that's the case: find a new line of work.

How much would the inability to grip a fork cost you compared to slow data entry?

[cplmd]

Timothy..... the niche of a Tablet vs PDA is basically one of screen size.

That immersive reading you like to do on sunday, that spreadsheet of data or a picture or graph, all of those are easier on the eyes and wrists by putting it on a larger display.

Frankly, i think there IS room for both - by cutting down on features and just letting the small device being a data window accessing the "digital hub" via WiFi or GPRS use keep it cheap and small and therefore always with you.

A slightly larger model is what you read and browse on, having all the features of a smaller unit.

By offloading storage and connectors you increase battery time and space - let the server be the storage and the processor if need be. Make the PDA or tablet mainly a user interface device to the network.

[mischief]

Thank you!

I was getting too mired in being contrary to make the obvious points.:p

[Timothy]

Cplmd...with regards to the Medical field, I agree that a tablet would make sense in that setting. I doubt, however, that Apple will agressively go after that specific market.

With regards to screen size...that's my point! I already do that more intensive reading (Sunday paper) on my laptop. I love my laptop. It works great for me. Why do I need a Tablet to do the same thing? Especially since a large part of my internet use includes inputing a lot of text on various discussion sites.

Here's the product mix as I see it:

Desktop: Fast, expandable, main workstation

Laptop: Portable, multi-purpose computing

PDA: Ultra-portable, go anywhere.

The Tablet would vie for marketshare from the laptop. It wouldn't, in my opinion, create any *new* market of users. And, Apple could not produce it for any less of a cost than an iBook. So, you'd basically shrink your market of iBook buyers by the amount of buyers who would buy a Tablet instead.

But...I maintain...what do I do in the grocery line? On the bus? At the Mariner's game?

[cplmd]

I see a tablet INITIALLY as the evolution of the laptop
you don't lose your keyboard - a USB slot keeps that - heck they even hang them off handhelds!

But by allowing the removal of the keyboard you make a device I could curl up with on the sofa - sorry, but personally a laptop doesn't do that for me.

Just as you have iBooks and TiBooks you could make your mix include TabletBooks :D

You expand the market into area that don't want or need a keyboard and use the same technology for you hand held market.

And don't get me wrong - I hear and completely agree with you on the handheld need and ubiquity - I love to see Apple do it right - in fact, I love to see them do a cell phone right too.;)

[mischief]

Arn would kick us off for killing his server. The question is : Would Apple do a Tablet? I think they would. As to Timmy..........cplmd has things well in hand.

"GOBBLES!!!"