US "Christian" Minister calls for assassination.

[diamond geezer]

Obviously if a leader is "anti-american" he must be an unpopular dictator. Reading this you'd never know that Chavez is his countrys popular choice and legally elected.

link (http://informationclearinghouse.info/article9918.htm)

TRANSCRIPT

ROBERTSON: There was a popular coup that overthrew him [Chavez]. And what did the United States State Department do about it? Virtually nothing. And as a result, within about 48 hours that coup was broken; Chavez was back in power, but we had a chance to move in. He has destroyed the Venezuelan economy, and he's going to make that a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism all over the continent.

You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war. And I don't think any oil shipments will stop. But this man is a terrific danger and the United ... This is in our sphere of influence, so we can't let this happen. We have the Monroe Doctrine, we have other doctrines that we have announced. And without question, this is a dangerous enemy to our south, controlling a huge pool of oil, that could hurt us very badly. We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability. We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.

Source Media Matters. http://mediamatters.org

Copyright: . All rights reserved. You may republish under the following conditions: An active link to the original publication must be provided. You must not alter, edit or remove any text within the article, including this copyright notice.

[latergator116]

I don't understand why he wants him assasinated? Is he mad about the oil? :confused:

Edit: Or is Pat Robertson just a crazy lunatic?

[Advance The Man]

I don't understand why he wants him assasinated? Is he mad about the oil? :confused:

Edit: Or is Pat Robertson just a crazy lunatic?

Maybe Robertson doesn't like the fact Chavez is Catholic?
:)

[Heb1228]

As a conservative Christian myself, Pat Robertson often says things that I consider ridiculous. Both he and Jerry Falwell embarrass many of us. They don't seem to think before they speak many times. His views are not representative of the majority of evangelicals.

[miloblithe]

His views are not representative of the majority of evangelicals.

Except, unfortunately, he is one of the highest profile evangelicals in the US, so in that respect, he 'represents' evangelicals in the same way that Michael Moore represents labor conspiracy theorists or George Bush speaks for right wingers or so and so speaks for left-wingers...

I mean, you're right, these people don't accurately represent us, but those on the other side tend to point to these people in that way.

[Heb1228]

Except, unfortunately, he is one of the highest profile evangelicals in the US, so in that respect, he 'represents' evangelicals in the same way that Michael Moore represents labor conspiracy theorists or George Bush speaks for right wingers or so and so speaks for left-wingers...

I mean, you're right, these people don't accurately represent us, but those on the other side tend to point to these people in that way.
You are undoubtedly correct about the way people are propped up as leaders of a group by the media and others. But I do wish I heard more liberals denouce what Michael Moore says the same way I just denouced what Robertson said. I'm not trying to pick a fight, maybe I'm just saying we should all be a little more ready to speak up when our "leaders" say something ridiculous.

[miloblithe]

You are undoubtedly correct about the way people are propped up as leaders of a group by the media and others. But I do wish I heard more liberals denouce what Michael Moore says the same way I just denouced what Robertson said. I'm not trying to pick a fight, maybe I'm just saying we should all be a little more ready to speak up when our "leaders" say something ridiculous.

I think of Michael Moore as the Rush Limbaugh of the left: entertainers with little concern for ethical, accurate portrayal of issues. It's seemed to me that Al Frankin has a little more integrity on that front than Limbaugh, but of course I can be criticized as an unfair judge. (I've also spared myself of listening to Limbaugh in recent years.)

That said, I find Moore entertaining and, to some degree, necessary. For the kind of people who are dumb enough to be convinced by a Rush Limbaugh, the left needs a bombastic fat guy out there spinning our side. I find that justification depressing. I wish people were generally up for reasoned debate, but I'm afraid most people just aren't up for it. Lot's of people juut don't care enough.

[Heb1228]

I think of Michael Moore as the Rush Limbaugh of the left: entertainers with little concern for ethical, accurate portrayal of issues. It's seemed to me that Al Frankin has a little more integrity on that front than Limbaugh, but of course I can be criticized as an unfair judge. (I've also spared myself of listening to Limbaugh in recent years.)

That said, I find Moore entertaining and, to some degree, necessary. For the kind of people who are dumb enough to be convinced by a Rush Limbaugh, the left needs a bombastic fat guy out there spinning our side. I find that justification depressing. I wish people were generally up for reasoned debate, but I'm afraid most people just aren't up for it. Lot's of people juut don't care enough.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on the liberal side who you believe should be denounced?

[~loserman~]

As I have discussed in the other thread I don't understand why someone even believes him to be a "Christian" much less a "Christian leader"(a term that is anathema to me)

Mathew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me Lord,Lord shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven. Many will say... Lord,Lord did we not prophesy by thy name, cast out demons and by THY NAME do mighty works? and I will say depart from me you workers of iniquity.

Mathew 7:18-22 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit....... Therefore by their fruits you shall know them.

[miloblithe]

Denounced is a particularly odd word. Denouncing, it seems to me, is done by a religiously charged croud in Salem or by inquisitors in Spain. I realize it can be used in a more modern sense to mean publicly point out that something is wrong. But if you denounce someone, their entire being is wrong.

I'm not particularly interested in denouncing anyone, even George Bush, who is about as wrong as a human being can get in my book. I'm interested in publically pointing out that people are wrong _about_ things they have said, not that they themselves are wrong in a more general, moral sense.

So, in that sense, sure, I'll point out if left wingers say or do things that I don't agree with. But I'm not particularly interested in putting any of them on a stake.

[Heb1228]

As I have discussed in the other thread I don't understand why someone even believes him to be a "Christian" much less a "Christian leader"(a term that is anathema to me)
I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him or his heart. I have no way of knowing what he is like apart from the universally unflattering picture of him we get from the media. I disagree with many statements he makes, but I can't say what the man is personally like.

[xsedrinam]

As a conservative Christian myself, Pat Robertson often says things that I consider ridiculous. Both he and Jerry Falwell embarrass many of us. They don't seem to think before they speak many times. His views are not representative of the majority of evangelicals.
But these guys ARE REPRESENTATIVE of the Moral Majority Religious Right Wing http://mediamatters.org/items/200411240001 Their faces and sound bites appear daily on a national and global scale. That's just part of the issue. Not only is a public comment like this beyond intelligent, sound utterance, it can and probably will endanger lives and further alienate the Venezuelan people against anyone remotely connected with the U.S. and/or guilty by association.
X

[Heb1228]

So, in that sense, sure, I'll point out if left wingers say or do things that I don't agree with. But I'm not particularly interested in putting any of them on a stake.
Examples?

[Heb1228]

But these guys ARE REPRESENTATIVE of the Moral Majority Religious Right Wing http://mediamatters.org/items/200411240001 Their faces and sound bites appear daily on a national and global scale.
That's only because they make good news headlines, not because they have a large amount of popular support. I guarantee there are many people evangelicals would elect before Falwell or Robertson as a spokesperson if they could.

For instance, read David Brooks' NY Times op/ed called "Who Is John Stott" Unfortunately, i think its only avaiable to paid subscribers to their website.

[miloblithe]

Examples?

OK. But next time I challenge you on something, you have to bite. :)

Jebus. I don't know. I disagree with the US democratic leaders who agreed with the premise for starting the Iraq war, but I don't consider the democratic party to be all that left wing.

It's hard for me to think of real answers to your question though because most of my disagreement with the left-wing is over their not being left-wing enough, which isn't what you probably want. You probably want cases in which I think the right-wing is correct. I'm a little tired right now so thinking through that loop (a specific left-wing person with whom I disagree with and take a right-wing position). Maybe later I'll come up with something. I've been working on a 40 page paper on the Russian minorities in the Baltic states all day, so US politics aren't really on my mind right now.

[xsedrinam]

That's only because they make good news headlines, not because they have a large amount of popular support. I guarantee there are many people evangelicals would elect before Falwell or Robertson as a spokesperson if they could.

For instance, read David Brooks' NY Times op/ed called "Who Is John Stott" Unfortunately, i think its only avaiable to paid subscribers to their website.
It's still common knowledge that the current President's campaign invested $$$ big time to win over the Evangelical Right http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8017004/site/newsweek/ of whom Robertson was one of the champions. What was it, 25% of the vote of Iowa for a President he won? I don't think it can be supported that he and other key, public voices are not representative of a perceived "Christian" political right in the U.S.
X

[~loserman~]

I choose to give him the benefit of the doubt because I don't know him or his heart. I have no way of knowing what he is like apart from the universally unflattering picture of him we get from the media. I disagree with many statements he makes, but I can't say what the man is personally like.

There is the "rub". We don't have to know him to know what is " in his heart"
We only have to look at what comes out of his mouth.

Mathew 15:18-19 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness

[bousozoku]

As a conservative Christian myself, Pat Robertson often says things that I consider ridiculous. Both he and Jerry Falwell embarrass many of us. They don't seem to think before they speak many times. His views are not representative of the majority of evangelicals.

I certainly enjoy when Pat Robertson wished destruction on Orlando, FL for receiving payment and flying the rainbow flags. The next week or so, we got those tornados in January 1998. That was great.

[Heb1228]

OK. But next time I challenge you on something, you have to bite. :)

Jebus. I don't know. I disagree with the US democratic leaders who agreed with the premise for starting the Iraq war, but I don't consider the democratic party to be all that left wing.

It's hard for me to think of real answers to your question though because most of my disagreement with the left-wing is over their not being left-wing enough, which isn't what you probably want. You probably want cases in which I think the right-wing is correct. I'm a little tired right now so thinking through that loop (a specific left-wing person with whom I disagree with and take a right-wing position). Maybe later I'll come up with something. I've been working on a 40 page paper on the Russian minorities in the Baltic states all day, so US politics aren't really on my mind right now.
Being in grad school myself I understand paper exhaustion. I do wish I heard more from moderate democrats nowadays though. As a (mainstream, I think) conservative, I readily admit that there are people out there who take conservatism too far. I just wish those on the left could admit the same thing and bring the democratic party back to sanity, because it seems like the only spokespeople out there are as liberal as they can get. Just my impression...

[Heb1228]

There is the "rub". We don't have to know him to know what is " in his heart"
We only have to look at what comes out of his mouth.

Mathew 15:18-19 But the things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness
But you only have a very small picture of what comes out of his mouth. Thats my point. Everybody says stupid things sometimes. Robertson seems to have a knack for saying some REALLY stupid things. But making one bad statement every few months is not enough to judge a person's character on.

[xsedrinam]

I certainly enjoy when Pat Robertson wished destruction on Orlando, FL for receiving payment and flying the rainbow flags. The next week or so, we got those tornados in January 1998. That was great.
Without the properly attached Smilie, I can't tell if you were being facetious. http://img5.picsplace.to/img5/1/rolleyes_000.gif
X

[Heb1228]

I certainly enjoy when Pat Robertson wished destruction on Orlando, FL for receiving payment and flying the rainbow flags. The next week or so, we got those tornados in January 1998. That was great.
Yes, another ridiculous statement. And dont' forget Falwell's reason for 9/11. I can name them as well as most people. But like I said, they are not representative of most Christians. The only reason they are on the news is because of stuff like that. Even most evangelicals cringe when Falwell talks because we're afraid of what he might say.

[Rower_CPU]

Being in grad school myself I understand paper exhaustion. I do wish I heard more from moderate democrats nowadays though. As a (mainstream, I think) conservative, I readily admit that there are people out there who take conservatism too far. I just wish those on the left could admit the same thing and bring the democratic party back to sanity, because it seems like the only spokespeople out there are as liberal as they can get. Just my impression...

I think you're painting with too broad of a brush - I can't think of too many of the regular "leftie" posters in this forum that take anything uttered by someone with a "D" after their name as the gospel truth. We're a pretty discriminating bunch and critical of rhetoric, regardless of whence it comes.

Phrases like "bring the democratic party back to sanity" aren't really indicative of a moderate/mainstream philosophy, IMO. It's just more partisan talking points that attempt to degrade someone who disagrees with you rather than address the topic at hand.

Which "spokespeople" are you referring to? It'd be helpful to know who you think the wackos are to tell if if we think they're out of line, too. :)

[Heb1228]

Which "spokespeople" are you referring to? It'd be helpful to know who you think the wackos are to tell if if we think they're out of line, too. :)
You mean on the right or left?

On the right I would include Falwell and Robertson. Those are the two that stick out as being embarrassing. Others I just disagree with like Buchanan or Alan Keyes or Forbes who want to go to a flat tax. Media personalities like the libertarian radio talkers like Neil Boortz and Matt Drudge to some extent. Most of these people I agree with on somewhere between 60-90 percent of what they say, but consider too conservative.

On the left it would be people like Moore, NARAL, Alec Baldwin, Ralph Nadar, Dean (especailly his rhetoric). I could sit here and think of some more if you need me to, but I think this should be enough for now.

[miloblithe]

I used to really like Nader. I read unsafe at any speed and was really impressed, finding it reasoned and detailed.

I found him a really disappointing candidate though as he, like the rest of them, decended into political rhetoric rather than truth. All political candidates say that kind of crap that they can't possibly belieive, but is 'plausible'.

He was really cute when he came to DC though in a way that indicated the scale of his campaign. Someone was asking a 'question' that was really a 5 minute rant about something like utility infrastructure in Southeast DC (or something obscure like that. Nader was running for president, not DC city council). And Nader just listened patiently, leaning a little on the podium. There were actually hundreds of people there, so it's not like he was listening to one person out of five or anything.

[CanadaRAM]

Holy #$%*

And here in Canada we kick loose-cannon politicians out of the party merely for calling the elected leader of another country a 'moron'.

[xsedrinam]

Holy #$%*

And here in Canada we kick loose-cannon politicians out of the party merely for calling the elected leader of another country a 'moron'.
It's been a while since I've thought about that one :D :D
X

[Thomas Veil]

Back to Robertson.

The other day The Daily Show had a clip of him praying to the Lord about Supreme Court nominee John Roberts. He had that eyes-tightly-shut face on (the kind that makes him look like he's trying to pass the Mother of All Turds), and he said, approximately, "Thank you, Lord, for this nominee to the Supreme Court. Please bless us with other openings on the court so that we may fill them with Christians who will do your will."

I was shocked. He may have meant he wanted to see other Supreme Court justices retire, but it sounded like he was praying for several deaths among the liberal members.

A Christian, this guy ain't. :mad: Pharisee, maybe.

[bousozoku]

Yes, another ridiculous statement. And dont' forget Falwell's reason for 9/11. I can name them as well as most people. But like I said, they are not representative of most Christians. The only reason they are on the news is because of stuff like that. Even most evangelicals cringe when Falwell talks because we're afraid of what he might say.

Oh, I know what you're saying, but the Christians here tend to believe that it's alright to think that way--hatever bad happens to non-believers is what they deserve. I've heard some pretty crazy things around here.

I met one of the big guys in the United Presbyterian Church, who is evangelical, and he was nearly as radical as you would expect from the Southern Baptist Conference. I have since pretty much divorced myself from Christianity but I still respect its right to exist.

[Heb1228]

...he said, approximately, "Thank you, Lord, for this nominee to the Supreme Court. Please bless us with other openings on the court so that we may fill them with Christians who will do your will."

I was shocked. He may have meant he wanted to see other Supreme Court justices retire, but it sounded like he was praying for several deaths among the liberal members.

A Christian, this guy ain't. :mad: Pharisee, maybe.
Ridiculous statements aside, I don't think he was praying for the deaths of Supreme Court justices. A charitable reading of that statement doesn't imply that. We all want to be given the benfit of the doubt by readers/hearers. Its easy to knitpick and find something wrong what any statement anyone makes.

[Heb1228]

Oh, I know what you're saying, but the Christians here tend to believe that it's alright to think that way--hatever bad happens to non-believers is what they deserve. I've heard some pretty crazy things around here.

I met one of the big guys in the United Presbyterian Church, who is evangelical, and he was nearly as radical as you would expect from the Southern Baptist Conference. I have since pretty much divorced myself from Christianity but I still respect its right to exist.
Well I'm one of those radicals from the Southern Baptist Convention. :eek: Hehe so I can give you a firsthand account. :D

I don't think anyone who is a Christian should ever wish evil on anyone. I believe that God is righteous and just to judge man for wrongdoing. But this DOES NOT mean that I want anyone to come under that judgment. In fact, I wish that no person ever had to experience God's judgment and I certainly do not rejoice in any tragic events that take place.

It also DOES NOT mean that I think that tornadoes or 9/11 or anything else is God's judgment. This is where I think Falwell and Robertson are terribly mistaken in their statements.

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is clear to you, but that may be the best quick answer I can give.

[bousozoku]

Well I'm one of those radicals from the Southern Baptist Convention. :eek: Hehe so I can give you a firsthand account. :D

I don't think anyone who is a Christian should ever wish evil on anyone. I believe that God is righteous and just to judge man for wrongdoing. But this DOES NOT mean that I want anyone to come under that judgment. In fact, I wish that no person ever had to experience God's judgment and I certainly do not rejoice in any tragic events that take place.

It also DOES NOT mean that I think that tornadoes or 9/11 or anything else is God's judgment. This is where I think Falwell and Robertson are terribly mistaken in their statements.

I'm not sure if what I'm saying is clear to you, but that may be the best quick answer I can give.

I understand you and I think you're a lot more forgiving than the way your church has gone, or for that matter, many churches. From what I hear locally, the various churches' congregations would like to burn everyone at the stake who doesn't follow their exact doctrine, which means a lot of other denominations. This in itself would be a solution as only the peaceful would be left, most likely. :)

[Dont Hurt Me]

I just wonder how a man of Jesus can call for murder? I never recall Jesus pushing this philosophy for anything. Its whats sets him apart from all the others.

[zimv20]

what's that 11th commandment? all preceding are optional should one's oil interests be threatened or if it can serve your political and monetary goals?

[Thomas Veil]

Ridiculous statements aside, I don't think he was praying for the deaths of Supreme Court justices. A charitable reading of that statement doesn't imply that.I wasn't trying to slant my reading of that one way or the other. It's just that so many justices die on the bench, rather than resign or retire, that it makes Robertson's statement suspect. If he'd meant retirements, he should've said retirements. (And even then, since retirement is usually due to health reasons, it'd still sound like he was praying for misfortune to fall on people.)

[IJ Reilly]

Just out of curiosity, is there anyone on the liberal side who you believe should be denounced?

Let me know when a prominent liberal makes a public plea for someone to be murdered.

[mactastic]

Being in grad school myself I understand paper exhaustion. I do wish I heard more from moderate democrats nowadays though. As a (mainstream, I think) conservative, I readily admit that there are people out there who take conservatism too far. I just wish those on the left could admit the same thing and bring the democratic party back to sanity, because it seems like the only spokespeople out there are as liberal as they can get. Just my impression...
Do you have any idea how liberal a person can get? We have a real misperception in this country that anyone with a 'D' after their name is a 'radical leftist' or 'as liberal as they can get'. Of course that is relative to the rest of the world who judges our left to be more closely related to their center, and our right to be their far right. It gives me the impression that most conservatives in this country have no idea what a 'radical leftist' is, despite the fact that they use the term (interchangeably with communist, for some strange reason) to describe anyone who is on the left.

As for liberals I disagree with, I totally disagree with any of them that say war is always bad, there is no need for violence etc. I also heartily disagree with many leftist political figures who argue that we need more feel-good gun control laws (as I respect the privacy rights of law-abiding citizens) like the recently-expired Assault Weapons Ban. I have disagreed with the Hillary Clintons and the Mrs. Gores of the world when they wanted to enact restrictions on music/video games 'to protect the children'. I was highly critical of Bill Clinton when he enacted NAFTA. I've criticized Jesse Jackson for his shakedown strategy of fundraising. I've expressed unease at the environmental groups who I perceive to have closed minds to growth issues. I have criticized the Democratic Party for their stupid, ham-handed chicken**** politics. I mean, if you lose to the Worst President Ever, you suck pretty bad, and obviously need help.

If you think the lefties in this forum don't criticize the left, you haven't been reading closely enough.

[IJ Reilly]

Holy #$%*

And here in Canada we kick loose-cannon politicians out of the party merely for calling the elected leader of another country a 'moron'.

Fortunately nor not, Pat Robertson hasn't been elected to any public office.

[jelloshotsrule]

I used to really like Nader. I read unsafe at any speed and was really impressed, finding it reasoned and detailed.

I found him a really disappointing candidate though as he, like the rest of them, decended into political rhetoric rather than truth. All political candidates say that kind of crap that they can't possibly belieive, but is 'plausible'.

He was really cute when he came to DC though in a way that indicated the scale of his campaign. Someone was asking a 'question' that was really a 5 minute rant about something like utility infrastructure in Southeast DC (or something obscure like that. Nader was running for president, not DC city council). And Nader just listened patiently, leaning a little on the podium. There were actually hundreds of people there, so it's not like he was listening to one person out of five or anything.

heb- what are your issues with nader? what do you know about him?

milo- political rhetoric? can i get some examples?

i'm not sure i'd use the word "cute" to describe ralph. ;) but one thing he has is passion and genuine interest in helping people. he certainly did have to play the politics game of catch phrases, etc. but i don't fault him for that. the overwhelming power that the democrats had in trying to keep him off the ballot was insane. it literally made the campaign about getting on ballots, rather than getting out message. so it is not at all a fair comparison

[miloblithe]

milo- political rhetoric? can i get some examples? ... he certainly did have to play the politics game of catch phrases, etc. but i don't fault him for that.

I think we're basically saying the same thing, only I found it dissapointing and you didn't. I was annoyed by his insistence that he could win the election, for one. I would have respected him a lot more if he said what was realistic: that passing the 5% threshold would be a major victory for the Green party and a first step towards building for the future. It would give the Green party matching funds, mean they'd be more likely to get on ballots in the future and not have to go through that crap again. Possibly get them invited to debates. And so on. I understand why he had to insist he could win, but I still thought it was stupid.

There were a couple issues on which he seemed to have similarly 'plausible' positions that had no basis in reality. But honestly, I don't remember which I thought those were.

[IJ Reilly]

Nader was the only candidate willing to talk candidly about the dangers of the corporate state, which is why I voted for him in 2000 (but not in 2004). The majority party candidates won't talk about it because they are part of it, to a greater or lesser degree.

But anyway, you have to admire how the topic has changed from a prominent Republican calling for the assassination of an elected foreign leader to whether Ralph Nader isn't too loopy for his own good. At last, we have discovered the rhetorical equivalency between liberals and conservatives!

[mymemory]

Hey guys... I am Venezuelan!

And returning to the original topic...

Yes, Chavez has to be murdered. One of Bush's biggest mistakes was to go after Husein while things were acelerating in Venezuela.

There was even actions from the US embassy in Venezuela against Chavez protesters back in 2001 asking them "not to call for military action"... that was my organization who was promoting those actions.

Now, there was a time when the venezuelans could stopped Chavez and there still a tiny chnace. The problem is that while Chavez is creating an Aljazira TV channel like in South America and is giving and developing more guerrilla troops and so on... the venezuelan politicians of the oppositions just want to winn any possible election so they can steel anything.

We (venezuelans) are in a point where we can not kill Chavez ourselves, there is no leadership to even take the control after Chavez, the country is very close to the Iraki political situation in a way.

So, I know is shocking to hear from an ex-candidate of the US such things but even he is talking his mind he is just right!

Right now, South America is growing big time in therm of becoming the next terrorist area. We had Al Caeda training camps in Venezuela for the last 5 years maybe and the Cuban chemical weapons laboratories are in Caracas.

I mean, there is actually a Cuban-Venezuelan flag already and the central office of PDVSA (the oil manofacturer company) is in Cuba now!

Hello!!!!

Chavez saw the weakneses of the venezuelan culture and he got us big time, despite he is supported by the Cuban G2 (the Cuban CIA which is better than the CIA itself in a few things).

[Peterkro]

You may well be one Venezuelan but speaking on behalf of the rest is a mite presumptious.Thanks for another surreal post,

[mpw]

I just wonder how a man of Jesus can call for murder?......

It's not really murder, after he'd only be killing a communist strong-arm dictator. :rolleyes:

Look into the eyes, look into the eyes. Don't look around the eyes, look into the eyes. They're rolling.

[jelloshotsrule]

the green party, unfortunately, has declined in terms of leadership within, as well as just getting too into party politics. the nomination convention in 2k4 was a huge fiasco, and having heard reports from people who were there, it was as backwards and corrupted as our national elections are in ways. my memory is bad, but suffice it to say that a majority of people were voting for nader/camejo to represent the green party, and yet that is not what happened.

as for realism, yeah, i think he's playing politics there. but you also have to admit that very few (only the diehard) would vote for him if he comes right out and says "i can't win, but look at the big picture". i mean, let's face it, what % of people look at the big picture or even give a **** that our two party system is a joke?

overally, while ralph is certainly a unique guy, a bit OC, etc... he is not loopy. an overworked, tired man, yes... but not senile. (his father was marching in protests into his 90s!)

[jefhatfield]

As a conservative Christian myself, Pat Robertson often says things that I consider ridiculous. Both he and Jerry Falwell embarrass many of us. They don't seem to think before they speak many times. His views are not representative of the majority of evangelicals.

i totally agree

robertson and falwell have decided to make ultra right wing politics their god...and i am sure there are religious people who have deified politics, but on the far left

either you worship god or you worship politics (or something else)...you cannot do both...some of the early christians in the first century wanted to use their movement to take up arms against rome and get "political" but jesus, and the later disciples made it really clear that christianity was about the soul and not about the political/military power structure and the happenings around it

i am sure many people would have supported jesus had he started an armed movement against the oppressors of israel, but that was not the case and should not be the case for christianity

if someone wants to start a military religion and political movement or the right or left, let them...but not in the name of jesus or christianity...that religion was and is peaceful by doctrine no matter how many apostates have tried to make it otherwise

[IJ Reilly]

By loopy I don't mean senile. Nader is a fairly eccentric individual, but then he always has been. His personal style doesn't really work on a political stage. But then, he's never called for anybody to be murdered, as far as I know, which makes him a better Christian than Pat Robertson.

[zimv20]

His personal style doesn't really work on a political stage.
maybe not on the overly-produced, highly-handled, image-rules modern political stage. but nader's candor is something we desperately need in politics, especially at the national level.

[jelloshotsrule]

maybe not on the overly-produced, highly-handled, image-rules modern political stage. but nader's candor is something we desperately need in politics, especially at the national level.

exactly. i am of the opinion that if people actually had the chance to see/hear nader (or some other small party, similarly intense, passionate candidates), then they would think twice about accepting the status quo. ralph's (and his campaign manager's) speeches at the election night party were inspiring. not at all seeing it as defeat, but as a step forward. and my girlfriend, who is certainly more of a democrat than i am, agreed, being very moved by the speeches.

ij- yeah, he's eccentric, i'll give you that. and i love the comment about being a better christian... i am catholic, and have long held the belief that a good deal of non religious/christian people are much much more christ like than a lot of top "christians".

[IJ Reilly]

maybe not on the overly-produced, highly-handled, image-rules modern political stage. but nader's candor is something we desperately need in politics, especially at the national level.

That too, but he'd be a tough sell also by any standard. He'd have a hard time running successfully for his local city council. Have you ever met him? I have. In addition to being kind of a natural oddball, he's got a monotone speaking style and tends personally towards gruffness. And those dark suits he apparently sleeps in?

Our national dialog would be poorer without him, no doubt, but I am also realistic about somebody like Nader being a realistic candidate for anything. The curb appeal is virtually nil.

Anyway, what about that homicidal Pat Robertson? Who answers for his little eccentricities? :)

[jelloshotsrule]

[QUOTE=IJ Reilly]That too, but he'd be a tough sell also by any standard. He'd have a hard time running successfully for his local city council. Have you ever met him? I have. In addition to being kind of a natural oddball, he's got a monotone speaking style and tends personally towards gruffness. And those dark suits he apparently sleeps in?[QUOTE]

i've met him too. kinda hard not to when working with him though. he doesn't always wear the suits, in fact i much prefer the funny hats and flannel plaid shirts he wears half of the time or so. he certainly does have a personality beyond his apparent gruffness. he could be a bit less monotone, sure, but i'm not sure he's any less boring than gore, and his intensity more than makes up for that. i mean, look at bush... a good public speaker? but you're right in that he seems just that much smarter than joe public can relate to. which is an issue that can't be ignored.

would you believe he brought us all to see spiderman 2 one night? freaking hilarious.

[Roger1]

Anyway, what about that homicidal Pat Robertson? Who answers for his little eccentricities? :)


Some guy on CNN, that's who. He explained that the statement was in the political part of his show, so that it was ok to say that. Since it wasn't in the Christian part of the show. ???? I think I have it right.

[zimv20]

Have you ever met him?
i've not. and i agree with you, to an extent. that is, you are correctly sussing out the reality. i'd like to think that crap like that doesn't matter, that content, responsibility and accountability are king. we've got a long way to go.

[Desertrat]

Chavez has spoken openly about his ties to Castro. He's alleged to be at least sympathetic to the anti-government forces in Colombia. I really doubt that the man in the street in Venezuela is going to get one of those AKs we talked about here, some time back--and those are good population-control weapons in the hands of a State Police. He's always been admittedly socialistic.

IOW, I don't forecast a new era of liberty in Venezuela.

His assassination by an outside entity would create more problems than it would solve, though...

Nader? Unfortunately, "Unsafe..." was one of his least rational endeavors. The swing-axle Corvair, no different in design concept than the VW Beetle, was already out of production. The biggest problem with that stupid car was that it was made overly-soft in the suspension so that Mrs. America could think she was on a living-room couch; just like most other cars of that era. GM was dumber'n dirt to hire a private detective to follow Ralphie around.

I was highly impressed by the work his people did in their study about the Savannah River. Helluva good book.

'Rat

[IJ Reilly]

i've met him too. kinda hard not to when working with him though. he doesn't always wear the suits, in fact i much prefer the funny hats and flannel plaid shirts he wears half of the time or so. he certainly does have a personality beyond his apparent gruffness. he could be a bit less monotone, sure, but i'm not sure he's any less boring than gore, and his intensity more than makes up for that. i mean, look at bush... a good public speaker? but you're right in that he seems just that much smarter than joe public can relate to. which is an issue that can't be ignored.

would you believe he brought us all to see spiderman 2 one night? freaking hilarious.

You've done me one better at least. Some years ago I was invited to speak at a conference he organized in DC. I had the honor of being introduced by him. (It was actually kind of scary to tell you the truth.) At another event, I met his sister. Sat next to her in fact. Interesting people, those Naders. Very intense.

[jelloshotsrule]

You've done me one better at least. Some years ago I was invited to speak at a conference he organized in DC. I had the honor of being introduced by him. (It was actually kind of scary to tell you the truth.) At another event, I met his sister. Sat next to her in fact. Interesting people, those Naders. Very intense.

yeah.. but take out the nader in the national elections context, and imagine them... i mean, they kick ass! from his dad to him and his sister... his sister (claire i believe) is pretty old, and is still all into doing this work and getting the word out about a host of issues. can i see some amount of questioning of his chosen methods? sure. are there times when i wish he'd gone the small public office route years back and worked up? sure. is he weird and even possibly arrogant? probably. but i cannot question his intentions. he works longer hours than i'd even dream of considering to work, and in general, he gets nothing for it. yeah, he has a chunk of $, but his lifestyle is so ridiculously modest as to make me wonder!

some say it would've all been solved if he'd gotten married. hah

"i don't have time for that"... and that may ultimately haunt him on a personal level (ie, his lack of close, long term relationships in general).

[mactastic]

I'm confused. Did Ralph Nader call for the assassination of Chavez?

[IJ Reilly]

Funny you should mention that. I don't remember how it came up, but I asked Ralph's sister if he was married. I'll never forget the answer: "Ohhh nooo." Almost like I should have known. She didn't volunteer to explain and naturally I didn't pursue it.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm confused. Did Ralph Nader call for the assassination of Chavez?

Well he might. Has anybody asked him? :)

[mymemory]

You may well be one Venezuelan but speaking on behalf of the rest is a mite presumptious.Thanks for another surreal post,


Surreal? So... you that lives in "who know's where" know more than Venezuela situation than me?

Ok, just take a look:

I am the web master of this web site and I am selling the book here in Miami too.
: www.fuerzasolidaria.org (http://www.fuerzasolidaria.org)

Look for the name: Alejandro Peña Esclusa (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=alejandro+peña+esclusa&btnG=Google+Search) in the internet, he is my leader.

Now, take a look to these two videos (there is one policeman getting shot in the head, be carefull). Puente Llaguno (http://www.fuerzasolidaria.org/mov/PuenteLlaguno.mov) and Police Forehead (http://www.fuerzasolidaria.org/mov/PoliceForehead.mov)

I was at that riot April 4th when the coup, see the attachment.

And the other picture is with the author of the book and the web site.

So... watch your mouth with YOUR presumptions because you have little idea of my experiences and I could link you to more if you KNEW some Spanish.

[Peterkro]

Come back when you grow up Mymemory.

[Dont Hurt Me]

It's not really murder, after he'd only be killing a communist strong-arm dictator. :rolleyes:

Look into the eyes, look into the eyes. Don't look around the eyes, look into the eyes. They're rolling.
So funny how it looks isnt it, its been said Robertson holds no office :) Extremism just sucks and we should all watch out for it. Also Chavez is following Castro so thats not a good thing. Im sure if given the chance our Govt will muff this one.

[patrick0brien]

Christian, Evangelical, Liberal, Conservative, etc.

Does it really matter?

This was just a stupid thing to say by anyone - let alone one with a mic.

[skunk]

We all want to be given the benfit of the doubt by readers/hearers. Its easy to knitpick and find something wrong what any statement anyone makes."Will someone rid me of this turbulent priest?" Hmmm. Rings a bell. Yes, it's easy to misunderstand these things.

[mymemory]

Chavez has spoken openly about his ties to Castro. He's alleged to be at least sympathetic to the anti-government forces in Colombia. I really doubt that the man in the street in Venezuela is going to get one of those AKs we talked about here, some time back--and those are good population-control weapons in the hands of a State Police. He's always been admittedly socialistic.

IOW, I don't forecast a new era of liberty in Venezuela.


Hmm... you are not to clear with the venezuelan situation yet. Just take a look at the videos I uploaded... those are the congressmen shooting.

Chavez bought a bunch of AK-47, as the mayority in the congress is pro-chavez, he develop a new "army" as a reserve. These reserve obey only the president and no the official armed forces. These reserve is formed by very poor people of any kind and they are getting paid even better than an actual soldier.

You have to remember Chavez is hurting the venezuelan economy big time and that mean more people with needs. So, there is a point where, no matter what the motive is, you will do anything just to get some money.

Right now there are about 50.000 people in those reserves and is increasing. From those 50,000 people probably 10,000 are worth it but 10 thousand people can control several cities if they are well armed and organized.

There is a point in your conciesness where you do not actually distinguish what you are really doing as long you are fine... that is what that people are thinking.

On the other hand, Chavez is upgrading the most corrupt soldiers to higher ranks.

You too have to know that a venezuelan soldier comes from a house with an income less than $10 a month, those are people with no education and no future and they are easy to manipulate. They are thought to hate and feel envy. As I say: they are animals in two feet" and I know that sounds bad but they are so stupid.

For example:

My older brother was sponsoring a kid from a guetto, the kid was the grand child of a maid we had, whe knew him since he was 2 years old and now he is 16.

Well, the kid worked at the supermarket carrying the bags of the costumers and my brother offered him to give away some flyers from his business. The kid accepted and he was getting paid every week. 4 months later some one called my brother telling him that there were a bunch of flyers in a dumpster.

The kid never gave any flyer, he got the money and put them in the trash 2 blocks from my house.

This is and example and I have tons.

Many people from the government are just like that, many of them didn't graduate from high school.

So... can you imagine the level of awareness those people have about the world?

There have been 30K victims in Irka so far. Well, Venezuela is not in war and we have about 35K murders so far in a year just by crime.

Venezuela is a surealistic place, I mean, you just will not get it unless you go there for two weeks at list or a month to really pay attention to what is going on.

And the worse thing is that Chavez has so much money because of the oil!!!

I remember the oil barrel was $8 not to long ago and Venezuela economic situation was ok. Now he have a 500% inflation since then and the oil is over $50???

To fill up an entire gas tank of a Toyota Corolla is $1.5... the TANK!!! gas is cheaper than water. But where all that money is going???

Answer:

To develop and stablish new armed forces all around South America.

The target: The US.

[OryHara]

dude, idiots like Robertson are still worried about Communism

[skunk]

Hey guys... I am Venezuelan!We know that. So what?

Yes, Chavez has to be murdered. One of Bush's biggest mistakes was to go after Husein while things were acelerating in Venezuela.Neither Iraq nor Venezuela was/is a military threat to the US. Why are you advocating murder? Is the vote not good enough?

Now, there was a time when the venezuelans could stopped Chavez and there still a tiny chnace. The problem is that while Chavez is creating an Aljazira TV channel like in South America and is giving and developing more guerrilla troops and so on... the venezuelan politicians of the oppositions just want to winn any possible election so they can steel anything.If the five major TV stations are owned by the right-wing US-backed opposition, and interfere in politics to the extent they do, I'm not surprised he wants his own channels. From Wikipedia:
The coverage of the 2002 coup by the five mainstream, privately-owned TV networks exacerbated the relationship between the Chávez government and the media. These five stations openly urged popular support of the coup, showing footage which has come under fire from Chavistas (supporters of Chávez), the government, and international journalists for its subjective selection of detail and even manipulation of images. On the first morning after the coup, many of the highest-ranking members of the coup appeared on these stations openly thanking them and their owners for their support. Once the counter-coup was launched by Chavistas and loyalist elements of the Palace Guard, these five stations refused to report on the events, instead showing old films and repeats of sitcoms. In the April 11th demonstrations leading up to the coup, Chávez took over the airwaves shortly before gunfire broke out. The private TV stations defied the president by showing his address and the protest simultaneously, via a split-screen presentation. Chávez then ordered them taken off the air in a forced blackout which lasted until several stations started rerouting cable TV signals in order to continue covering the protest.
We (venezuelans) are in a point where we can not kill Chavez ourselves, there is no leadership to even take the control after Chavez, the country is very close to the Iraki political situation in a way.Been to Iraq lately?

Right now, South America is growing big time in therm of becoming the next terrorist area. We had Al Caeda training camps in Venezuela for the last 5 years maybe and the Cuban chemical weapons laboratories are in Caracas.I don't suppose you have links for any of this rabid stuff, have you?

Chavez saw the weakneses of the venezuelan culture and he got us big time, despite he is supported by the Cuban G2 (the Cuban CIA which is better than the CIA itself in a few things).What bollocks! HE WON THE VOTE. Get used to it. He's doing a lot of good for the Venezuelan poor. And he's standing up to the US. Two big plusses as far as I'm concerned.From Wikipedia:
Since he was elected in 1998 on promises of helping the poor, Chávez's influence over Venezuelan politics has grown. One year after a majority of Venezuelans voted to keep him in office, the populist leader has consolidated his power, striking a harsh anti-USA tone. He is up for re-election in 2006, and recent polls suggest he has about 70 percent popularity.
Chávez and his administration have been opposed through confrontational methods by some established sectors in Venezuela, including the business federation Fedecámaras and union federation CTV, resulting in a coup d'état, general strike/lockout, and recall referendum, all of which failed to remove him from office. Although the opposition charged that there was widespread fraud in the recall vote, Chávez and his allies have won consistent political victories, occupying the vast majority of elected municipal, state, and national posts, as well as majorities in the supreme court, national electoral council and national assembly.
Venezuela under Chávez has started numerous social programs: Barrio Adentro, an initiative to provide free health care to poor and underserved areas, Mission Robinson and Mission Sucre to increase literacy and basic education. The literacy programs are centered on learning to read, and understand the Venezuelan Constitution and their inherent rights as Venezuelan citizens. These programs have been criticized as inefficient and incomplete by opposition figures but are widely heralded and appreciated by Chávez backers and by many international observers, including the World Health Organization.In this case, I'm inclined to believe Wikipedia rather than an obviously bitter loser with a suspect agenda.

[mymemory]

Come back when you grow up Mymemory.

If I am just slaping you ignorance in your face! :rolleyes:

[zimv20]

i think a couple of deep breaths are in order. relax.....

[skunk]

i think a couple of deep breaths are in order. relax.....I'm just sitting here, waiting for the Venezuelan tsunami. I notice the sea has just receded quite a long way. Shouldn't be long now....

I'm glad I brought my water-wings! ;)

[zimv20]

I'm just sitting here
for the record, had i meant you, i would have written "deep puffs." :-)

[skunk]

for the record, had i meant you, i would have written "deep puffs." :-)Oh HA HA!
:D

[Peterkro]

Try reading Skunks post above,he has more patience than me I can't be bothered.Incidently I have seen film of the right wing looneys thanking the private TV stations for their help in spinning the demonstration shootings.I've also seen the full footage of the demonstrations showing the loyalists under fire from the rightists and even I who have no editing skills could've have done a cut and paste job better than the private TV goons.Mind you the film was collected and shown as a film(the revolution will not be televised) by a rabid bunch of communist liberal lefties employed by RTE the Irish state broadcaster.

[Sayhey]

I'm just checking, is it ok to call politicians who want to assassinate democratically elected leaders of sovereign nations fascist? Or is this a case of even if the shoe fits don't acknowledge it? The fact Robertson is a powerful influence in the Republican Party should disturb anyone who is concerned about democracy - in the US as well as Venezuela.

[mymemory]

We know that. So what?

Neither Iraq nor Venezuela was/is a military threat to the US. Why are you advocating murder? Is the vote not good enough?

If the five major TV stations are owned by the right-wing US-backed opposition, and interfere in politics to the extent they do, I'm not surprised he wants his own channels. From Wikipedia:
[/indent]
Been to Iraq lately?

I don't suppose you have links for any of this rabid stuff, have you?

What bollocks! HE WON THE VOTE. Get used to it. He's doing a lot of good for the Venezuelan poor. And he's standing up to the US. Two big plusses as far as I'm concerned.From Wikipedia:
[/indent]In this case, I'm inclined to believe Wikipedia rather than an obviously bitter loser with a suspect agenda.

Dude... if you believe in elections you are so ignorant.

Chavez has the control of the electoral counsil.

Back when the referendum Venezuela used computarized machines to count the votes.

For the people who vote YES asking for the president resignation we discovered there was a top number of 124 - 126 and 129 votes. That means that no matter if 8,000 people voted, just 129 votes were counted on that table.

On the other hand all the people agreed with Chavez were counted normally.

Is a big surprice that after 4 years Chavez had more people voting for him that when he was previously elected.

All those results were taken to the OEA, the secretary of the OEA Cesar Gaviria (from Colombia) said there were no problems... Cesar Gaviria's brothers was rescued from las FARC 6 years ago by Chavez and he owned that to Chavez.

The other organization counting the votes... Jimmy Carter Fundation. Of course that was before the Carter won the "Peace" Nobel Price, after that the Carter Funtadion have been invited to others events but they reject the invitation... of course, they got what they were paid for and that was it.

Let me tell you that when you invite some one from the Carter Fundation you have to pay them a few millions $$$, is not free.

I mean, I was into the stuff and that was so public in Venezuela.

I am not agreed about any country being involved in to the Venezuelan problem but the media in general and the politicians are so corrupt that giving more time to the situation is going just to be worse for everybody.

By the way... I would like you to see any credential of you supporting your comments. It is easy (lazy) to point some web site, I am the web master of Fuerza Solidaria at list and I can point you to a huge amount of web site that talk wonders about Chavez and another good amount against if that is the case.

Is easy to talk about a topic from your "1st world home country" specially when you have never being in Venezuela and have no clue about speaking spanish at list and none political experience.

If you were a bit "instructed" you could read the sections of "articles" and there is a link... IN ENGLISH about the Bio-weapons lab in Venezuela (http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/denuncias/en/20021219-04.html)

I mean... what else do you want?

Something that I learned in politics is that when people lack of arguments and feel humiliated start to attack the person... I do have solid arguments but I do not see any of yours. Even you didn't have the time to check any of the links I posted... big mistake, you should have done that before comenting something to me about a subject I have been sumerged deeply for the last 6 years.

Did you know there si a Cuban-Venezuelan flag already??? well... I already know that because I saw it.

Have you seen any of Chavez Alo-Presidente shows??? can you tell me a bit about them?

Do you know how the Venezuelan Congress is divided? and how the Supreme Court is divided as well?

It seems you know more of the venezuelan culture than I do. :D

[skunk]

Dude... if you believe in elections you are so ignorant.

Chavez has the control of the electoral counsil.

Back when the referendum Venezuela used computarized machines to count the votes.

For the people who vote YES asking for the president resignation we discovered there was a top number of 124 - 126 and 129 votes. That means that no matter if 8,000 people voted, just 129 votes were counted on that table.Extraordinary how he only won 59% of the vote, then, isn't it?

Is a big surprice that after 4 years Chavez had more people voting for him that when he was previously elected.Why is that surprising?

The other organization counting the votes... Jimmy Carter. Of course that was before the Carter Organization won the Nobel Price, after that the Carter Organization have been invited to others events but they reject the invitation.Well, we all know Jimmy Carter is a commie.

By the way... I would like you to see any credential of you about your comments. It is easy (lazy) to point some web site, I am the web master of Fuerza Solidaria.Why are you pointing out that website, then? Aren't you just being lazy? And is it possible it's biased?

If you were a bit "instructed" you could read the sections of "articles" and there is a link... IN ENGLISH about the Bio-weapons lab in Venezuela (http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/denuncias/en/20021219-04.html)I have read it. Not impressed.

Something that I learned in politics is that when people lack of arguments and feel humiliated start to attack the person... I do have solid arguments but I do not see any of yours. Even you didn't have the time to check any of the links I posted... big mistake, you should have done that before comenting something to me about a subject I have been sumerged deeply for the last 6 years.I'm not in the least humiliated. That was my first post on the subject here. I just dislike either you, Pat Robertson or George Bush advocating "taking out" a leader who they don't agree with. I guess I must be a democrat. Small "d".

[FoxyKaye]

what's that 11th commandment? all preceding are optional should one's oil interests be threatened or if it can serve your political and monetary goals?
That's right - especially when it concerns the "three Gs:" Gays, Guns and God. Except now that the Right has bashed the hell out of gays by messing with our civil rights, gotten assault guns back into the hands of everyday Americans, and merged Church/State and creationism/science, the next group to feel its wrath will be immigrants.

But, you know, I've always considered the Right just plain dumber than most folks (although I also consider them richer, whiter, straighter, and more dominated by men), and this little excerpt from the CNN.com article on this whole affair is a high-profile illustration of these tendencies:
Robertson -- who has a history of stirring controversy with remarks on subjects from Islam to the Supreme Court -- did not explain how Venezuela was to be used by Muslim extremists. The U.S. State Department Web site says 98 percent of the population are Roman Catholic or protestant.

[Sayhey]

I'd be more impressed with the contra rants if they came from someone in Venezuela rather than a upper class (lost your maid - it's rough isn't it) refugee in Miami. Chavez and his policies are aimed at helping the majority of Venezuela's people who are dirt poor. You may disagree with those policies, but the way to change them is through offering different choices to Venezuela's problems and convincing people to follow you. The idea of supporting the assassination of the elected leader of your own country by a foreign power only shows how desperately out of touch you are from the real world of most Venezuelans. Patriots don't have foreign hit men do their dirty work to reinstate a privileged lifestyle of a pampered minority.

[skunk]

I'd be more impressed with the contra rants if they came from someone in Venezuela rather than a upper class (lost your maid - it's rough isn't it) refugee in Miami.Yes, that bit didn't escape my notice... :D
The idea of supporting the assassination of the elected leader of your own country by a foreign power only shows how desperately out of touch you are from the real world of most Venezuelans. Patriots don't have foreign hit men do their dirty work to reinstate a privileged lifestyle of a pampered minority.Quite right.

[xsedrinam]

I'd be more impressed with the contra rants if they came from someone in Venezuela rather than a upper class (lost your maid - it's rough isn't it) refugee in Miami. Chavez and his policies are aimed at helping the majority of Venezuela's people who are dirt poor. You may disagree with those policies, but the way to change them is through offering different choices to Venezuela's problems and convincing people to follow you. The idea of supporting the assassination of the elected leader of your own country by a foreign power only shows how desperately out of touch you are from the real world of most Venezuelans. Patriots don't have foreign hit men do their dirty work to reinstate a privileged lifestyle of a pampered minority.
¡Olé!
X

[mymemory]

Try reading Skunks post above,he has more patience than me I can't be bothered.Incidently I have seen film of the right wing looneys thanking the private TV stations for their help in spinning the demonstration shootings.I've also seen the full footage of the demonstrations showing the loyalists under fire from the rightists and even I who have no editing skills could've have done a cut and paste job better than the private TV goons.Mind you the film was collected and shown as a film(the revolution will not be televised) by a rabid bunch of communist liberal lefties employed by RTE the Irish state broadcaster.

I saw that video too and some other because there are about 9 of them.

I didn't care too much about the manipulation of them but is was funny to watch because (believe it or not) one of the people interviwed was a mimo teacher in mi highschool... you know mimo no? Marcel Marceau.

Actually, if you watch carefully "The Revolution Won't Be Televised"... I AM IN THAT VIDEO!!! LOL I am holding the microphone, I have the black hat and I am just beside the General who said: When the national Guard launches the tear gas we will run at them". Then the camera moves to the right and you can see me holding his microphone.

But the video actually was not what concert me, there were some parts when you can tell how the politicians of the same oppositions collaborate together with Chavez to create that coup.

All that coup was a theater believe it or not and comparing with other events that happened later on until the Referendum you can actually tell the links betwen the leader of the opposition and the government and how the leaders of the opposition were manipulating the population against Chavez just to push him to negociate and give them positions in the government as well.

Believe it or not, the venezuelan politics was that lame and is getting even worse. Do not let me start about it.

[skunk]

¡Olé!
XGood to see you're with us, X. You're probably a little better-informed on this thorny topic.

[Peterkro]

Scratchs head,rereads,goes to bed telling myself I waste too much time on internet thingy.

[IJ Reilly]

To hear some talk, you'd think that a free people shouldn't have the power to vote incompetent fools into office.

[skunk]

To hear some talk, you'd think that a free people shouldn't have the power to vote incompetent fools into office.Voting's for pansies.

[xsedrinam]

Good to see you're with us, X. You're probably a little better-informed on this thorny topic.
Not sure about that, and I'm just trying to catch up a bit on what's been said, but am "muy, pero muy preocupado" to read comments made which make additional alliance(s) with an assassination, ANY assassination, of another human being. I'm glad this group will not let that go, unchecked.
X
Edit: Seems one particular poster is digging a ditch with trenchant commentary, and may fall in. (There ya' go, IJ ;))

[IJ Reilly]

Edit: Seems one particular poster is digging a ditch with trenchant commentary, and may fall in. (There ya' go, IJ ;))

I like it when you talk dirty.

[mymemory]

I'd be more impressed with the contra rants if they came from someone in Venezuela rather than a upper class (lost your maid - it's rough isn't it) refugee in Miami. Chavez and his policies are aimed at helping the majority of Venezuela's people who are dirt poor. You may disagree with those policies, but the way to change them is through offering different choices to Venezuela's problems and convincing people to follow you. The idea of supporting the assassination of the elected leader of your own country by a foreign power only shows how desperately out of touch you are from the real world of most Venezuelans. Patriots don't have foreign hit men do their dirty work to reinstate a privileged lifestyle of a pampered minority.

I do not want anybody from other country to kill Chavez... I would like him in jail taken by the venezuelan army.

I haven't lost our maid, we have another one. That one left time before the kid did what he did and we still having good relationships with her. She even came to my father's funeral because we invited her. I was the one calling her.

Now, let me explain you the reality of the "help" you are talking about.

Fisrt, why there should be poor people in Venezuela if we have the oil at $50+ in the market? Venezuela is only 20 million people country. Again, re-read my post. It is easier for a government to keep their population poor because they become easier and cheaper to manipulate.

The fact is that Chavez, with the excuse of "helping the population" is bringing "doctors" from Cuba. These doctors do not have a Venezuelan licence. In exchange Venezuela gives free oil to Fidel Castro.

Now, how much a cuban doctor cost? looks like a billion dollars a month.

These doctors are people from the cuban armed forces, when they arrived to the gettos they start to teach about the revolution and... if you are sick, they will give you some sort of aspiring.

That aspirin (I do not recall the name) is some sort of very old formula from the 50's that help you in some way to reduce what ever pain you have. That was mentioned by Venezuelan doctors after they started (and still) receiving patiences from those doctors. That paln is called "barrio adentro" witch sounds very nice but is as ralisti and nice as Bush saying "we are going to liberate Irak", I mean...

I have my mids coming to hour house explaining the situation and we tell them that as long the services are good (because there are some dental services) you take them because that money belong to all of the Venezuelan people any way.

Again, you have to go to venezuela and take a look at everything.

I went to a party in New York last year about left wing and making fun of Bush and all that (I am agreed about making fun of them) but, to listen all those kid from college talking non senses about the left wing. I mean, I have no problem with people believing in something but respect other people's experiences when they have been actually there.

One thing is me talking to you about Epcot Center and something very different is taking you there for real.

About me moving to Miami, I did my part there, I got capured and jailed by the National Guard, I was in a list. I got out and if I was in Venezuela today I would be death already in a shooting or something. I could actually do it now but is not worth dying when peopel today are complaining about Chavez and going to the mall and to the movies as nothing happening.

I saw two guys getting shot in their heads, two guys from the gettos defending their country and I think I am the only one who remember them besides their families.

I saw how a man with a water bottle place the bottle besides the head of one of them, and after the man walked away and sniper blew the guy head off. That is how the intelligence mark the people in a manifestation so the snipers know who are the "trouble makers".

I mean, I have been there.

[Sayhey]

I do not want anybody from other country to kill Chavez... I would like him in jail taken by the venezuelan army.

That's not what you said to begin with!

Yes, Chavez has to be murdered. One of Bush's biggest mistakes was to go after Husein while things were acelerating in Venezuela....

Now, there was a time when the venezuelans could stopped Chavez and there still a tiny chnace. The problem is that while Chavez is creating an Aljazira TV channel like in South America and is giving and developing more guerrilla troops and so on... the venezuelan politicians of the oppositions just want to winn any possible election so they can steel anything.

We (venezuelans) are in a point where we can not kill Chavez ourselves, there is no leadership to even take the control after Chavez, the country is very close to the Iraki political situation in a way.

So, I know is shocking to hear from an ex-candidate of the US such things but even he is talking his mind he is just right!

Sure looks like you were for the assassination of Chavez. It even looks like you specifically endorsed Robertson's call for the US to do the job. Sorry, mymemory, if any American called for what you have called for it would be blasted as treason. I'm glad you still have your maid and a comfortable life in Miami, because Venezuela doesn't need your politics.

[skunk]

I like it when you talk dirty.Nothing like a good, dirty trench!

[skunk]

I do not want anybody from other country to kill Chavez... I would like him in jail taken by the venezuelan army.As in "I voted for it before I voted against it"?

Fisrt, why there should be poor people in Venezuela if we have the oil at $50+ in the market? Venezuela is only 20 million people country. Again, re-read my post. It is easier for a government to keep their population poor because they become easier and cheaper to manipulate.Isn't the appalling social inequality in Venezuela what Chavez is trying, against entrenched and super-wealthy businessmen and aristocrats, to correct?

The fact is that Chavez, with the excuse of "helping the population" is bringing "doctors" from Cuba. These doctors do not have a Venezuelan licence. In exchange Venezuela gives free oil to Fidel Castro.Oil is what Castro needs, and trained doctors are what Venezuela needs. Makes a lot of sense.

if you are sick, they will give you some sort of aspiring.Great quote. I think I'll use that.

I mean, I have no problem with people believing in something but respect other people's experiences when they have been actually there.Donald Rumsfeld has been to Iraq. Do I believe a word he says? No.

I could actually do it now but is not worth dying when peopel today are complaining about Chavez and going to the mall and to the movies as nothing happening.Maybe it isn't.

[IJ Reilly]

Nothing like a good, dirty trench!

"We spoke trench fluently."

Extra points for identifying the source of that pun.

[xsedrinam]

Nothing like a good, dirty trench!
The Trench That Stole Christ's mess.
X

[mymemory]

As in "I voted for it before I voted against it"?

-No, for your information I was always aware of the situation even Chavez was elected.

Isn't the appalling social inequality in Venezuela what Chavez is trying, against entrenched and super-wealthy businessmen and aristocrats, to correct?

- To correct what? Chavbez is the wealtiest person in Venezuela and all his ministers.

Oil is what Castro needs, and trained doctors are what Venezuela needs. Makes a lot of sense.

- You are so ignorant again... did you ever aprooved some math exam in your life?

Great quote. I think I'll use that.

- No, you should use C4H10FO2P instead.

Donald Rumsfeld has been to Iraq. Do I believe a word he says? No.

- Well, you haven't move any where, from where you develop your criteria, CNN? lol

Maybe it isn't.[/QUOTE]

- Oh yeah, and those videos were taken in South Beach last week then
:rolleyes:

[mymemory]

That's not what you said to begin with!

Sure looks like you were for the assassination of Chavez. It even looks like you specifically endorsed Robertson's call for the US to do the job. Sorry, mymemory, if any American called for what you have called for it would be blasted as treason. I'm glad you still have your maid and a comfortable life in Miami, because Venezuela doesn't need your politics.

Well, I would like to see the guy die soon for sure. The only good comunist is a dead one some one said, and I could apply that rule in this case. Actually, just by the person he is, no matter if he is comunist or not, he is just problems.

How do you know Venezuela do not need my politics?

What do you know about anything to start with?

Please, come to me with arguments not with silly lines, if you do not know what to say do not say anything then.

You can noot even point Venezuela in the map, you have no clue about anything!!!

Does anybody know what the Foro de Sao Paulo is? who created, when and who are the members?

Of course you can look in the internet for it now, but those are new news for you. And quit acting like "lefties wannabe's" say something! how old are you both by the way? you the demi-gods.

[xsedrinam]

"Quien más saliva tiene traga más harina". I don't think anyone doubts where you're from, mymemory. As it's been stated in various posts, trumpeting your nationality and acting like a "matón" with your credentials is neither impressive nor intimidating to this august group. With a little humility, the smallest thinker should realize he/she had absolutely nothing to do with where they were born.

Your "politics" as you call them are ascribing to murderous acts. I know enough about FARC and your name dropping of Foro to say that neither Venezuela nor the whole of Latin America needs that kind of political bloodbath of terror, bullyism and the reckless disregard of human life and dignity. How you could consider your "politics" as something to be taken seriously is beyond me. "En la tierra de ciegos el tuertano el rey".
X

[skunk]

"En la tierra de ciegos el tuertano el rey".
XOne "Ay!" is better than three.
;)

[skunk]

- No, you should use C4H10FO2P instead.You've lost me there. Is that some obscure chemical formula?

Well, it's been fun debating with you. I think I can see the problems of Venezuelan politics much more clearly now.

[zimv20]

seems it's the chemical compound for sarin gas. which makes the reference a bit unfriendly, i'd say.

[xsedrinam]

seems it's the chemical compound for sarin gas. which makes the reference a bit unfriendly, i'd say.
No, you should use C4H10FO2P instead
That's exactly what it is.
" sar·in (sâr'?n)
n.
A poisonous liquid, C4H10FO2P, that inhibits the activity of cholinesterase and is used as a nerve gas in chemical warfare."
X

[Inspector Lee]

You have to remember Chavez is hurting the venezuelan economy big time and that mean more people with needs.

Just trying to figure out how a guy (Chavez) who wants to supposedly up the oil royalty leveed on US oil firms from 16% to 30% is
"hurting the venezuelan economy". (http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=362&row=1) You must be one of those "hacendados" engaged in a little South Beach soiree right now.

Can somebody tell me... why in the world this 700 Club character has been lead story on CNN all frigging day??? All the rubbish lapdog media commentary seems to center around his wild statements from the past. So much so that people on this forum representing all aspects of the political spectrum, have reached agreement that he is a windbag (including several "Christians" who want no part of him). Yet, the "story" is still hanging around out there for digestion.

It appears the media (those bloodsuckers) are prepping the sheeple for a probable assassination. I mean this dog and pony show just gets so old after a while. It appears (to me) that war = ratings = $$$ for big media.

The assassination seed has been planted. Reminds me of that scene in the bathroom in French Connection when the undercover cop tells Popeye Doyle of the impending shipment of drugs (in this case destruction) and how "everyone is gonna get well." Media (those bloodsuckers again), big oil, politicians sporting both "D" and "R" suffixes who may have purse strings attached to this, it is madness...

[mymemory]

You've lost me there. Is that some obscure chemical formula?

Well, it's been fun debating with you. I think I can see the problems of Venezuelan politics much more clearly now.

Look, remember the cheating Chavez did in the elections? I have found a site with 3 sheets about them. 3 sheets with the top nomber of 133 for the ones who voted for the president resignation. Please visit this link. (http://www.11abril.com/index/especiales/RR/actasRR.html)

I forgot to mention that everybody that voted against Chavez got fired from public building because the vote in Venezuela is no longuer secret.

And here is a link to the Carter Chavez Connection, is actually very realistic, I just found it. Link (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=14806)

Just for you to know and do not fall in to any silly argument because to learn about politics watching tv from your coutch watching CNN is not the best way, nor in a rave party at some college.

[zimv20]

And here is a link to the Carter Chavez Connection, is actually very realistic, I just found it. Link (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=14806)
frontpagemag isn't exactly a reputable, disinterested source.

e.g., they've got a link to http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/ right on their front page.

[Sayhey]

Let's see, mymemory, first you advance the notion that the President of Venezuela should be assassinated, then you tell a member of these forums he should use a deadly poison, and lastly, you argue that every communist should be killed. And I'm supposed to see this font of violent wet dreams as a basis for your expertise on anything? mymemory, from the evidence or your own posts it seems your politics are the same as the one's that killed thousands in Pinochet's (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news/pinochet.html) Chile, Argentina during its "Dirty War" (http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB77/), and El Salvador under D'Aubuisson's Death Squads (http://www.usip.org/library/tc/doc/reports/el_salvador/tc_es_03151993_casesD1_2.html). Do I need to be an expert on Venezuela to know that no country needs what you advocate?

I hope you are really just some young refugee spouting off as some release of your frustrations about your loss of wealth and privilege. If you are the real thing - a right wing thug advocating murder - please don't bother these forums with your threats of violence. You don't intimidate anyone here.

[solvs]

my memory is bad, but...
Oh come on, he's not that bad. :p Kidding.

Anyway, I think the problem is not so much that Robertson is a nut job. Cuz he is. But that people actually listen to him. Despite, or perhaps because of, things like this. If he says it, it must be true. And since he claims to be speaking for God, this must be what God wants. Of course, Jesus used to speak out against people like him, but how many of these people actually follow what Jesus taught? So the media (and yes they are $$$ grubbing slime-balls, duh) hypes up the story - "look how crazy these people are". Then the far right religious talking heads use that to prove how liberal the media is, and how they attack Christianity.

And the rest of us are stuck somewhere in the middle disgusted by the whole fiasco.

[IJ Reilly]

The Robertson remarks made the NewsHour this evening, much to my surprise. It seems to have generated something of an international incident. The Vice President of Venezuela suggested that perhaps the U.S. ought to regard Robertson as a terrorist, which is an interesting concept. The official U.S. government response, more or less, was that Robertson is a private citizen and doesn't represent official U.S. policy. So now I have to wonder if a "private citizen" of the U.S. went on national TV advocating the assassination of, say, Tony Blair, whether he might not just earn himself some serious face-time with the FBI.

[Sayhey]

To me the question for US politicians is whether they will go beyond saying how stupid Robertson's remarks were and divorce themselves from his political help. I don't think many who have embraced Robertson or his "Christian Coalition" in the past will change their stance over his call for murder, but I can always hope can't I?

[IJ Reilly]

Come to think of it, I don't suppose we really need to worry about terrorists posing a homeless people. They're already posing as Christian televangelists.

Hiding in plain sight. Very clever.

[solvs]

Come to think of it, I don't suppose we really need to worry about terrorists posing a homeless people. They're already posing as Christian televangelists.
Nah, those aren't terrorists. They're just doing God's work. ;) Apparently, it's ok if you have the right God.

[Sayhey]

Come to think of it, I don't suppose we really need to worry about terrorists posing a homeless people. They're already posing as Christian televangelists.

Hiding in plain sight. Very clever.


Not just those who mouth off about it either; we also protect and employ our own brand of the real functioning variety (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4535661.stm). mymemory must look at Posada Carriles as some kind of hero. I bet all 73 of those civilians on the plane are "better dead than red."

For the record, btw, here is the Carter Center's report (http://www.cartercenter.org/doc2023.htm) on Venezuela's recall election in August of 2004.

On Feb. 25, 2005, The Carter Center released its final comprehensive report of its observation mission for the presidential recall referendum in Venezuela since November 2003 and a separate report on its efforts to provide facilitation, mediation, and reconciliation in Venezuela since June 2002. The observation mission report includes additional studies conducted by the Center in light of allegations of electronic vote fraud and the findings of an independent panel of statisticians and computer security experts who reviewed the allegations but found no evidence of such fraud, confirming the Center's conclusions.

[skunk]

seems it's the chemical compound for sarin gas. which makes the reference a bit unfriendly, i'd say.Yum.
:cool:

[~loserman~]

So now I have to wonder if a "private citizen" of the U.S. went on national TV advocating the assassination of, say, Tony Blair, whether he might not just earn himself some serious face-time with the FBI.

I doubt it. If a private citizen made that comment about Bush they would.
Don't think foreign leaders count unless they happen to be visiting the U.S.

[skunk]

Don't think foreign leaders count unless they happen to be visiting the U.S.Not that you meant it that way, but your answer neatly sums up the problem of US foreign policy....

[~loserman~]

Not that you meant it that way, but your answer neatly sums up the problem of US foreign policy....

It's dual meaning WAS intentional

[xsedrinam]

It's dual meaning WAS intentional
As in "I challenge you to a dual?"
P.S. The pun is intentional
X

[jelloshotsrule]

Oh come on, he's not that bad. :p Kidding.


what's great is that i definitely considered that reading of it...

but, i'm not sure i agree with your response after this thread..........

[solvs]

but, i'm not sure i agree with your response after this thread..........
Could be worse. Have you read the Are Americans Really That Stupid (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=144812) thread?

[jelloshotsrule]

Could be worse. Have you read the Are Americans Really That Stupid (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=144812) thread?

sadly, yes... but let's keep our focus on one member at a time! hah

[zimv20]

look (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/wl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil_050829235602) at what that bastard chavez is doing now!


Venezuela offers fuel, food to hurricane-hit US

CARACAS (AFP) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez offered to send food and fuel to the United States after the powerful Hurricane Katrina pummeled the US south, ravaging US crude production.

The leftist leader, a frequent critic of the United States and a target himself of US disapproval, said Venezuela could send aid workers with drinking water, food and fuel to US communities hit by the hurricane.

"We place at the disposition of the people of the United States in the event of shortages -- we have drinking water, food, we can provide fuel," Chavez told reporters.

Chavez said fuel could be sent to the United States via a Citgo refinery that has not been affected by the hurricane. Citgo is owned by Venezuela's state-owned oil company, Petroleos de Venezuela (PDVSA).

In the Gulf of Mexico, which accounts for a quarter of total US oil output, 92 percent of crude and 83 percent of natural gas production were shut down due to Hurricane Katrina, which slammed Louisiana and Mississippi, according to US government data.

Venezuela is the fourth-largest provider of oil to the United States, supplying some 1.5 million barrels a day.

Last week, Chavez offered discount gasoline to poor Americans suffering from high oil prices and on Sunday offered free eye surgery for Americans without access to health care.

the US needs to take him out! NOW!!!! TERRORIST!!!!! :rolleyes:

[mymemory]

Sorry, I was away.

Is sad any of you can read spanish or the venezuelan news papers. Just in case:

Chavez is telling the people he can not resolve the venezuelan problems. Link (http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=7794) Despite we have the oil at 70$ today. If you read teh article many people are homeless.

By the way, my mother was trying to sell an apartment I have in Caracas. The inicial mortage was transfered by a bank owned by the government because the orginal bank went banckropsy a few years ago. Believe it or not the apartemnt is paid already and we aonly need some one from that back to realese the mortage... well... since November such person does exist and many people with mortages are waiting everyday just to get one signature for a reslease form SINCE NOVEMBER LAST YEAR! So, I can not sell my apartment.

But my case is not worse, many people gave a down payment to the government waiting for the finance of their apartments (and I mean humble people). So, my mother is telling me as well that all that people lost their downpayment because they never got the credit Chavez promised.

Another note and this was las week.

4 people died during the night in a public hospital because the oxigen ran out and nobody noticed... that is what happens in a venezuelan hopital. Beside that, YOU NEED TO BUY YOUR OWN SHOTS AND COTTON UP if you need medical attention because there is no money. Do you want the link? here is. (http://www.globovision.com/news.php?nid=7759)

Now, is easy to believe what ever you read from your computer, again, take the chance to ask any venezuelan person around where you live and ask them about Chavez, there may be many as everybody is leaving the country.

And YES Chavez is offering oil to the US and if you ask Fidel Castro Cuba is living in a democracy for the last 40 years as well. Please, come to me with some good argument next time.

[mymemory]

look (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050829/wl_afp/usweathervenezuelaoil_050829235602) at what that bastard chavez is doing now!


the US needs to take him out! NOW!!!! TERRORIST!!!!! :rolleyes:


BTW, if you want to know the reality about Venezuela TODAY, go to see a movie called" Secuestro Express.

Then, Chavez cannot send any food to the US because we are buying the cows from Argentina and Brasil because the colombian guerrilla took over most of our farmers and kidnapthem because Chavez is portecting the guerrilla as well. Is that good economy? we have no actual food production, everything is imported again.

Then,
1. Find out ho much is the minimun wage in Venezuela.
2. Find out ho much the gallon of gasoline cost.
3. Find out ho much the galon of water cost.
4. Fin out how much the milk, meat, and chicken cost.
5. After you make your calculation... try to figure out how come some one can buy a computer in Venezuela if you have to ad 40% in taxes based on the retail price you find here in the US.

Do you know how Chavez is helping the industry?

The dollar used to cost 500Bs 7 years ago, today it cost $2170!!!! and you can not go to the bank and buy it (there lost your freedom dude) because there is a prohibition and the government now dictates how much money you can get per year ($2.000).

Now, if you won a company and you want to buy a computer you will have to buy the $ in the blck market at Bs. 3500.

So, the phone bill of your company (after you do your home work on finding out how much in minimun wage) is actually bigger than minimun wage because all telecomunication companies and technology need to increase their prices too EVERYTHING IMPORTED LIKE FOOD!!! and meat from Brasil and Argentina.

But not only that, there is a prohibition that do not let you fired any employed, the law just do not let you. Despide that the government is obligating you to increase the salary but the inflation grows too.

At the end you will have to close your company or find the way around some how. Working by contract or something.

Usually workers already know and before getting the job they rather work at any wage because they know there are no jobs.

My fiance, who is a lawyer graduated with honors, told me yesterday she has only Bs. 300 in her wallet. So, make the calculation. if $1 is 2170 Bs, how much bs 300 are in $???

I just want to be sure I am typing thes to an smart person, just want to be sure.

So, that is a bit of the reality, one thing is what Chavez says to the ousiders and a very different thing is what is going on inside Venezuela.

Any way, you are going to pay $3 the galon by the weekend thanx for the stupidity of Bush this time.