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TallManNY
Oct 17, 2012, 05:25 PM
I don't get the responses to the price point. The Surface is trying to compete against the MacBook Air, not the iPad. And certainly not the Kindle Fire. At $700 it easily beats the Air on price. And it beats pretty much any other laptop on lightness and build quality.

I think the question is, once Surface comes out, does anyone except a power user buy another PC laptop? Why would you if you assume that (a) browsing is basically perfect on the Surface and (b) Microsoft Office Suite works perfect on Surface? I suspect both of these will be true, so Surface is going to satisfy all of my work requirements (except for large external screens) and a good chunk of my home computer activities (except for gaming).

Surface seems like a game changing device. If I were a PC maker (not Apple) I would be quaking in my boots.



Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 05:31 PM
Yeah, I'm actually interested in the product for my office, but the commercial did nothing to move my interest level - except maybe down a little, since the ad does not depict the device as a serious tool.

What computer commercials are you people watching that actually shows them being used in a serious fashion? You're all talking like MS has done something horrible here.

"Does not depict the device as a serious tool"

Yeah. Apparently I've been missing the iPad commercials shot in black and white, with a guy talking about doing spreadsheets on it in a monotone voice. NOW THAT'S A SERIOUS COMMERCIAL FOR A MATURE INDIVIDUAL. WHICH I AM!

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I don't get the responses to the price point. The Surface is trying to compete against the MacBook Air, not the iPad. And certainly not the Kindle Fire. At $700 it easily beats the Air on price. And it beats pretty much any other laptop on lightness and build quality.

You're thinking of the Surface Pro, which is pretty much an ultrabook in a tablet form factor. The RT, which is what's being shown here, is more along the lines of the iPad. Same price, roughly the same capabilities.

TallManNY
Oct 17, 2012, 05:37 PM
You're thinking of the Surface Pro, which is pretty much an ultrabook in a tablet form factor. The RT, which is what's being shown here, is more along the lines of the iPad. Same price, roughly the same capabilities.

Do we really know the break down of performance between the Pro and the RT? I mean if the RT runs office flawlessly, does the enterprise stuff, runs a good browser, and has a nice keyboard, then how much more does it have to do to be an ultrabook? There are a lot of "ifs" about performance and we have to see this thing in action with long term hands on reviews. But I think this is going to be something special.

Actually, I think I just talked myself into buying some more Microsoft stock. I bought Apple when the iPad came out because it seemed like a game changes (and the iPhone also seemed destined for continued growth). Maybe Windows 8 and this Surface stuff is going to be a legit hit.

Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 05:48 PM
Do we really know the break down of performance between the Pro and the RT? I mean if the RT runs office flawlessly, does the enterprise stuff, runs a good browser, and has a nice keyboard, then how much more does it have to do to be an ultrabook? There are a lot of "ifs" about performance and we have to see this thing in action with long term hands on reviews. But I think this is going to be something special.

To get incredibly pedantic here, I think for it to be classified as an ultrabook, it has to be running an x86 processor, and using a full on desktop OS. The RT is running an ARM processor, which puts it in the same class as the iPad.

Though I do think most people underestimate what the iPad and other ARM tablets are capable of. No, they're not i7's. Hell, they're not even janky i3's, but they are still capable of doing quite a bit. On a random, not at all scientific guesstimation, I'd peg the iDevices out as being roughly equivalent to a P4 with middling memory bandwidth. If you were to stuff more ram into one, I bet a lot of people would be surprised what they're capable of.

And the RT? About the same. I think running Office on one will be great for light to moderate work. If you need to open a multi-gig spreadsheet, or a document stuffed with gigs and gigs of 20MP photos...yeah, it'll crash and burn. But that's what the Pro is for.

tech4all
Oct 17, 2012, 06:37 PM
That keyboard cover is such a massive gimmick. All those available so far are absolutely horrid to type on. This one won't be any different.

So I'm assuming you've used one of these to say such a thing? I've never seen one of these before . . . got a link? (Serious question btw).

They keyboard cover (while over priced now IMO), I think could be a great thing. I'm saying this as an M$ hater.

aristotle
Oct 17, 2012, 07:01 PM
Do we really know the break down of performance between the Pro and the RT? I mean if the RT runs office flawlessly, does the enterprise stuff, runs a good browser, and has a nice keyboard, then how much more does it have to do to be an ultrabook? There are a lot of "ifs" about performance and we have to see this thing in action with long term hands on reviews. But I think this is going to be something special.

Actually, I think I just talked myself into buying some more Microsoft stock. I bought Apple when the iPad came out because it seemed like a game changes (and the iPhone also seemed destined for continued growth). Maybe Windows 8 and this Surface stuff is going to be a legit hit.
Are you being serious or shilling? The RT cannot run existing X86 windows apps and the only third party apps that it can run have to be Metro which mean no accessing the win32 api. You can only access the WinRT (Windows Runtime).

Microsoft office will be the only non-Metro app that can run on it because it is from Microsoft.

Windows RT cannot join an Active directory domain.

So to answer your question in a nutshell, no it cannot run all of the enterprise stuff.

You are probably better off with an iPad with a keyboard and Citrix Receiver if your company has a Citrix infrastructure. Or alternatively, you could get an Apple Macbook Air and either install windows dual booting through Bootcamp or run windows in Parallels or VMware and have that machine instance joined to the domain.

The version of surface that will run all of your enterprise stuff is likely to cost more than a Macbook air.

chumawumba
Oct 17, 2012, 07:30 PM
if only apple made a keyboard-in-cover

Rogifan
Oct 17, 2012, 08:08 PM
Delete

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Can someone explain why Microsoft doesn't offer the colored touch covers with the $599 and 699 models? So if you want a colored touch cover its costing you $20 more for the 32GB model and $120 more for the 64GB model. I'm assuming they had to offer a model without the cover because someone in marketing or finance said said 'you have to hit the $499 price point' but it seems a bit of a rip off. Especially not offering a 64GB model for $599 and allowing you to pick out your own cover. I noticed the $499 model sold out. I'd be curious to know if people are buying colored covers or buying it without the cover. I know on some of the tech sites posters were complaining that $120/$130 was too expensive.

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Really. Not only are tablets eroding sales of desktops and laptops, the OEMs will be competing directly with Microsoft in this market, something they did not have to do before, ever. I am not the only person to identify this issue. Even Microsoft acknowledges that this new approach could create friction with the OEMs. I think the only way it could avoid causing friction is if the Surface flops.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57481224-75/microsoft-why-yes-our-surface-tablet-could-tick-off-oems/

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/21/acer-is-skeptical-of-surface-tablets/

It seems the biggest advantage for Surface is the enterprise but I wonder how it will fare there. Especially if corporations get big fat discounts from the likes of HP and Dell, laptops will be cheaper than Surface Pro. Plus with most Fortune 500 companies just starting to upgrade to Windows 7 I can't imagine they'll be in a hurry to purchase Surface tablets. I know where I work we're still using C
XP and many employees are still using office 2003/7. Also our hardware upgrade cycle is 3-4 years. And we have BYOD policies so a lot of employees use iPads in the workplace. I just don't see massive adoption of Surface in the workplace. Unless its a big hit with consumers and they're bringing it into the workplace on a BYOD basis.

wikus
Oct 17, 2012, 09:04 PM
Anti-Apple folks adopted Android.

False.

Or at least mostly false. You need to realize that many people, like myself, bought an Android device because I have zero tolerance for closed and forced systems like iTunes.

Oohara
Oct 17, 2012, 09:10 PM
So I'm assuming you've used one of these to say such a thing? I've never seen one of these before . . . got a link? (Serious question btw).

They keyboard cover (while over priced now IMO), I think could be a great thing. I'm saying this as an M$ hater.

No, I'm talking about keyboard covers in general. But my point is that the Surface keyboard cover cannot possibly offer anything better than the best of the iPad keyboard covers available - and those are already too poor for any kind of serious use.

This one for instance (http://www.logitech.com/en-us/tablet-accessories/ipad/ultrathin-keyboard-cover), go try it out and see if you can do any useful typing on it beyond what you can by just typing on the screen itself. Then look at the pictures of the Surface keyboard cover, see how thin it is, and imagine that same typing experience but with perhaps 1/5 of the key travel and almost no distance between the keys (this much is evident just from the pictures).

There's just no way it'll be anything but crap to type on, for anything more than very short e-mails, notes or URLs - which you might as well just do directly on the screen. Unless you're a freak of nature and actually can comfortably write longer texts directly on screens or with no tactile feedback at all, in which case I guess this keyboard cover might be useful for you :D But for the majority, I think it'll be little more than a good looking but ultimately pretty useless product.

JAT
Oct 17, 2012, 09:12 PM
False.

Or at least mostly false. You need to realize that many people, like myself, bought an Android device because I have zero tolerance for closed and forced systems like iTunes.

Anti- means against. Don't insult our intelligence.

ThunderSkunk
Oct 17, 2012, 10:51 PM
This is the third commercial from MS that feels like they're trying to imitate an Apple ad, and the third to reinforce the idea they have no idea how to market themselves these days.

These ads, beginning with the horrendous (screaming) "I was born to love you" one, seem to be made to appeal not to Microsoft users, but Apple users, but do it in such a way that's so absurdly heavy-handed it's beyond pandering...

Microsoft would be better served identifying the positive aspects of their brand association, and going with those. Provide a clear, concise description of what your product is and does, and keep it simple. Show it working. Leave the "we're cool", or "we're artsy" ads on the table. Nobody's buying that MS is some artsy fartsy youth-oriented brand.

wikus
Oct 17, 2012, 10:55 PM
Anti- means against. Don't insult our intelligence.

Its ignorant and insulting to the macrumors community making blanket statements speaking on behalf of unknown individuals.

Your response is also condescending which is frequent in nature of the apple community (unfortunately). I know very well what anti- means, your attitude isnt needed, find another forum if you feel the need otherwise.

Tech198
Oct 17, 2012, 11:00 PM
i don't see the competition here.

Didn't Steve do a deal with the (devil), I mean Bill, that they would not go against each other ? or am I dreaming :)

Consumers will see a win here...... Businesses... not a chance..... no one wants to carry a tabet round as the only device in a business (even in addition).

They sit at their desks all day.

Titanium81
Oct 17, 2012, 11:02 PM
Anyone else notice this?

iPad 3
Display
Retina display
9.7-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen Multi-Touch display with IPS technology
2048-by-1536-pixel resolution at 264 pixels per inch (ppi)
Fingerprint-resistant oleophobic coating
Support for display of multiple languages and characters simultaneously

Surface with Windows RT
Display
10.6" ClearType HD Display
1366x768 pixels
16:9 (widescreen)
5-point multi-touch

Surface with Windows 8 Pro
Display
10.6" ClearType Full HD Display
1920x1080 pixels
16:9 (widescreen)
10-point multi-touch


Neither Surface with Windows RT or Surface with Windows 8 Pro even come close to the iPad 3. Maybe if Microsoft released these 3 years ago, but in 2012???? This is just another example of how Apple uses the best parts available to create some of the most amazing products around.

k995
Oct 18, 2012, 12:50 AM
Really. Not only are tablets eroding sales of desktops and laptops, the OEMs will be competing directly with Microsoft in this market, something they did not have to do before, ever. I am not the only person to identify this issue. Even Microsoft acknowledges that this new approach could create friction with the OEMs. I think the only way it could avoid causing friction is if the Surface flops.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57481224-75/microsoft-why-yes-our-surface-tablet-could-tick-off-oems/

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/21/acer-is-skeptical-of-surface-tablets/

Again you never bothered to read what I said

1 : None of the biggest OEM MS customers have any significant market share in tablets. Neither are they planning on that.

2 : The companies that DO have significant market share barely sell anything from MS.

3 : Tablets now are the biggest concern for MS as they dont have anything in that market.

4 : This is no different then what google is doing with its nexus line.

So this is not a mayor issue for MS, its actually steps to get into a market that is draining MS sales.

----------

Anyone else notice this?

iPad 3
Display
Retina display
9.7-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen Multi-Touch display with IPS technology
2048-by-1536-pixel resolution at 264 pixels per inch (ppi)
Fingerprint-resistant oleophobic coating
Support for display of multiple languages and characters simultaneously

Surface with Windows RT
Display
10.6" ClearType HD Display
1366x768 pixels
16:9 (widescreen)
5-point multi-touch

Surface with Windows 8 Pro
Display
10.6" ClearType Full HD Display
1920x1080 pixels
16:9 (widescreen)
10-point multi-touch


Neither Surface with Windows RT or Surface with Windows 8 Pro even come close to the iPad 3. Maybe if Microsoft released these 3 years ago, but in 2012???? This is just another example of how Apple uses the best parts available to create some of the most amazing products around.

Yes, the screen is all that matters, the iphone 5 is obsolete tech because it has a lower resolution then just about any other flagship smartphone out there?

Mainsail
Oct 18, 2012, 12:59 AM
Like many folks, I find the concept of a hybrid tablet notebook interesting. However, when I try to imagine how it will work in practice, I get kinda confused. The problem is that a tablet works best with touch, and a laptop works best with a keyboard and mouse. How do you make an OS that works well with both? More importantly, how do make apps that work well with both UIs? On a tablet, the OS is pushed to the background and the Apps are really front and center. So, a robust App Store will be critical to the Surface's success.

I look forward to seeing the Surface when it comes out. Perhaps, the transition between UIs will be seamless, and it will create a new type of device for others to emulate. We will see.........

Tech198
Oct 18, 2012, 01:01 AM
Yes, the screen is all that matters, the iphone 5 is obsolete tech because it has a lower resolution then just about any other flagship smartphone out there?

Then you must also include all previous models.

Well. Then allot of people must like 'obselete' tech, since 90% of people use iphones.

k995
Oct 18, 2012, 01:15 AM
Are you being serious or shilling? The RT cannot run existing X86 windows apps and the only third party apps that it can run have to be Metro which mean no accessing the win32 api. You can only access the WinRT (Windows Runtime).
So? large companies using this wont have any problems programming for it, rest can by pro version.

Windows RT cannot join an Active directory domain.
Net yet


So to answer your question in a nutshell, no it cannot run all of the enterprise stuff.

AD has nothing to do with running enterprise stuff, its an easy way of managing, and you forget the pro tablet.


You are probably better off with an iPad with a keyboard and Citrix Receiver if your company has a Citrix infrastructure. Or alternatively, you could get an Apple Macbook Air and either install windows dual booting through Bootcamp or run windows in Parallels or VMware and have that machine instance joined to the domain.
yes, those are a real blessing to use [/sarcasm]

No you are not better of, you are actually a lot worse of in a lot of cases, but yes it does work in some way. But I highly doubt its a better experience (doubt as the surface still has to be released and people talk as they have been using it for months) then either of the surface tablets.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 01:29 AM
Does anyone know if the surface will be able to run apps side by side as opposed to having separate screens for each ? If so it will be able differentiate itself just enough from the iPad & justify its price points. True multitasking is what productivity bound consumers are waiting for in these tablets.

Replying again. I dunno why I didn't think of this before, but I'm running W8, and I can show you exactly what it looks like.

Running the desktop and Xbox Music side by side (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/Metro_Songs.jpg).

The Metro stuff is weird as hell at first since it's not at all like a normal desktop environment, but it's pretty easy to use once you spend a little time with it. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a horrible pain in the ass to use with a mouse, though I will admit it probably is a better fit on a touch device.

Tech198
Oct 18, 2012, 01:35 AM
Does anyone know if the surface will be able to run apps side by side as opposed to having separate screens for each ? If so it will be able differentiate itself just enough from the iPad & justify its price points. True multitasking is what productivity bound consumers are waiting for in these tablets.

Wouldn't be much of a tablet if it didn't.

k995
Oct 18, 2012, 01:55 AM
Then you must also include all previous models.
Wich have even less resolution? So even more obsolete in 2012 .



Well. Then allot of people must like 'obselete' tech, since 90% of people use iphones.

LMAO sure 90% use iphones, thats why they have a 17% market share in smartphone market

http://forums.macrumors.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=16066376

rearviewmirror
Oct 18, 2012, 02:59 AM
The only hope the Surface has is in the enterprise where they don't embrace BYOD and want to standardize on an issued tablet. It remains to be seen how much application development there will be for voice, video, and security outside the MS realm (Skype/Lync). I estimate the consumer world will reject it, it's only hope is in enterprise and education.

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My "company", where the CTO has a close tie to MS has sent out mass emails last year -NOT to buy iPad due to "uncertainty in the tablet market". And all requests will be denied. We are to wait for a more "certain" tablet to hit the market. I didn't understand the email then. NOW I do. He wanted us to wait for this "surface tablet" -

This is MS's only hope, there are a lot of MS bigots who buy into the MS methodology, and MS will get some wins out of this. Just like Lync, they say it's free, until you go to deploy and find out you need 500k in CALs. It is possible if WAVE, Windows 8, and Lync get some traction that companies who don't embrace BYOD will go with the Surface, but the consumer world will reject it, and that will hurt 3rd party application development.

ILoveDell
Oct 18, 2012, 03:31 AM
Neither Surface with Windows RT or Surface with Windows 8 Pro even come close to the iPad 3. Maybe if Microsoft released these 3 years ago, but in 2012???? This is just another example of how Apple uses the best parts available to create some of the most amazing products around.

But, with the larger native resolution both of these will fit more usable content on the screen to start with.

The extra width on the RT allows you to actually multi-task.

Regardless of the Retina display, most apps are designed for 1024x768, so might look clearer but show less content (without zooming).

Also the MS tablet screen is optically bonded, which will bring the quality closer to the Ipads without amping the resolution.

Being able to truly multi-task is huge.

gnasher729
Oct 18, 2012, 04:46 AM
My "company", where the CTO has a close tie to MS has sent out mass emails last year -NOT to buy iPad due to "uncertainty in the tablet market". And all requests will be denied. We are to wait for a more "certain" tablet to hit the market. I didn't understand the email then. NOW I do. He wanted us to wait for this "surface tablet" -

FUD is back!!!

I think your "company" should look for a different CTO.

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I think it's quite the opposite. There are not many business scenarios where tablet computers make ANY sense - electronic data capture, for example in clinical trials, are an area where tablets can do great. But where else can they replace a notebook?

It's quite simple actually. Anywhere you can sit down, the notebook is superior. Anywhere you can't sit, the tablet is superior.

gnasher729
Oct 18, 2012, 04:59 AM
Dying Market? Sales have slowed, because new consoles are right around the corner ( everyone knows it, Console people tend to follow this stuff pretty closely ).

But over 100 Million Wiis Sold? 70ish Million XBOX 360s? 70 millionish PS3s? That's well over the number of iPads Apple has sold.

I'd hardly call it a dead market

The next Battle is in the living room, where Microsoft already has standing, and Apple has nothing.

Apple TV atm is a Joke, the XBOX 360 can do everything a Apple TV can do, and also play games.

I think you are missing a few things here. The 96 million Wiis sold is over 5 1/2 years, and the sales are dropping. 9 million were sold in the last twelve months. XBox 360 is doing worse. The "joke" Apple TV actually sold more units in the last quarter than XBox 360. They sell 4 million Apple TVs per year, about 44% of the Wii. Not bad for a "joke".

Apple sold 17 million iPads in Q2 2012. That's twice as many as Wiis sold in four quarters. The "battle in the living room" that you are dreaming of isn't happening. There may be a tiny "battle in the kids' bedroom", that's all.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 18, 2012, 07:18 AM
False.

Or at least mostly false. You need to realize that many people, like myself, bought an Android device because I have zero tolerance for closed and forced systems like iTunes.

Uh, yeah, that is "anti-Apple," i.e., the way it conducts business. You don't accept it so you found a more "open" product you are more comfortable with.

Retrostarscream
Oct 18, 2012, 09:20 AM
No matter what they introduce in the touchscreen era, they're going to be far behind Apple.

The pricing is very odd - those who don't want the Apple will get their Android tabs. And those who are willing to shell out some money will go for the iPad.

What about those that long for a Microsoft Office productivity suite in a tablet iteration, along with a OEM keyboard built in the protective cover, & USB & HDMI support.

everything-i
Oct 18, 2012, 09:23 AM
Apple introduced iPad at the exact same price. At the time, it was also "unproven." People mocked the name and questioned whether there was a purpose for this kind of device. There were also a very limited amount of iPad-native apps (I do not count pixel-doubled iPhone apps).

The entry price for the current model iPad remains $500. The iPad was and continues to be a hit.

The biggest thing MS has to do to get into the game is battle the notion that the only tablet worth buying is the iPad, which seems to be consumer sentiment. Microsoft has begun doing this with some decent-looking commercials as well as touting the Surface-exclusive features such as the admittedly slick cover/keyboard.

Only problem with your argument is that when Apple launched there was no competition in this arena. Now there is and Apple is still on top by a long way. M$ have so far failed to make significant inroads into mobile phones with this interface and I suspect tablets will be no different. You say decent-looking commercials but the consensus seems to be that they are a bit crap. Apart from the kickstand, and a detachable keyboard the ad shows nothing about the tablet at all and have nothing about what the device is capable or or how you can use it. Happy Happy Joy Joy teenagers dancing around holding the device is just ridiculous.

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What about those that long for a Microsoft Office productivity suite in a tablet iteration, along with a OEM keyboard built in the protective cover, & USB & HDMI support.

I can get a keyboard cover for an iPad but it doesn't cost anywhere close to $120.

a.phoenicis
Oct 18, 2012, 09:35 AM
I find it particularly amusing that in the "click" commercial, they have a shot of a bunch of guys sitting on a bench, awkwardly holding the surface tablet over their laps with both hands... Showing that the "killer feature" of this tablet—its ability to mimic a laptop—can't be used on one's lap :rolleyes:

All in all, the commercial is pretty ugly. The dancing is awkward and a little forced (the school girls scene was particularly uncomfortable to watch), it leaves me wondering what the point of the product is. It may be a good tablet, and there are some aspects of Win8 that are compelling, but this commercial is pretty terrible.

Retrostarscream
Oct 18, 2012, 09:50 AM
Please don't get me wrong, the iPad is a revolutionary & fantastic device that ushered in & defined a new portable computing genre. For media consumption it is almost unmatched keeping your movies, photos, & music close at hand. For light productivity it still proves worthy. However, as much as I would love to replace it with my current 2010 MBP, it's just not there yet.

Surface solved an ittibitty gripe with the keyboard making it one with the device itself that "may" improve productivity by certain margins, & also "seemly" solves the issue of true multitasking by having side by side applications open as opposed to having a window open for each & flipping back & forth through them.

If these features hold true & "just work" along with the UI interface on the final product, it will have just enough leverage & flexibility to replace a traditional laptop, not to mention USB & HDMI connectivity.

If you are indeed intent on replacing on replacing a laptop with a surface tablet then $120 is a small price to pay for carrying an embedded tangible keyboard along with your multipurpose tablet computer, from my perspective, otherwise yes it would simply be too much mula.

Geckotek
Oct 18, 2012, 10:23 AM
FUD is back!!!

I think your "company" should look for a different CTO.

Not necessarily, if they are a large org that will be buying units in the hundreds or thousands, they may be waiting until they have multiple options, perhaps options that fit their current deployment and management models. If they are a big MS shop and don't want to go through the expense of purchasing a separate MDM, waiting on Surface might make sense.

TallManNY
Oct 18, 2012, 10:46 AM
Are you being serious or shilling? The RT cannot run existing X86 windows apps and the only third party apps that it can run have to be Metro which mean no accessing the win32 api. You can only access the WinRT (Windows Runtime).

Microsoft office will be the only non-Metro app that can run on it because it is from Microsoft.

Windows RT cannot join an Active directory domain.

So to answer your question in a nutshell, no it cannot run all of the enterprise stuff.

You are probably better off with an iPad with a keyboard and Citrix Receiver if your company has a Citrix infrastructure. Or alternatively, you could get an Apple Macbook Air and either install windows dual booting through Bootcamp or run windows in Parallels or VMware and have that machine instance joined to the domain.

The version of surface that will run all of your enterprise stuff is likely to cost more than a Macbook air.

Hmm, I was really meant to say that the Surface should seamlessly fit into an enterprise set up, connect to your outlook email and calendar, load the smaller spreadsheets and smaller word docs. But isn't that the vast majority of stuff that is done at the consumer and non-hardcore level? Increasingly stuff is just going to be emulated on your local machine while the work gets done at a back office server. Don't you think that Microsoft is probably going to be the best at this and the company IT department is going to be most familiar with their solution? Citrix tries to do this, but it doesn't seem fantastic. I suspect that the Surface RT will be able to connect to an enterprise solution running Windows 8 on real computers in the back office and the experience is going to be pretty good since that OS will be optimized for touch screen controls.

IJ Reilly
Oct 18, 2012, 10:53 AM
Again you never bothered to read what I said

I don't know what you are on about. You seem to be responding to some other argument than the one I suggested. I backed up this argument with two articles documenting the issues with the OEMs. They are peeved, and in at least one case, have said so. Not sure how anyone can advance a more definite, validated argument then that.

JAT
Oct 18, 2012, 11:44 AM
Its ignorant and insulting to the macrumors community making blanket statements speaking on behalf of unknown individuals.

Your response is also condescending which is frequent in nature of the apple community (unfortunately). I know very well what anti- means, your attitude isnt needed, find another forum if you feel the need otherwise.
If you know what it means, why did you accuse another person of saying something that prefix doesn't say?

As for blanket statements, you should avoid them yourself, at least in the very post where you claim they are ignorant and insulting.

JAT
Oct 18, 2012, 11:57 AM
Except - throw the ipad mini into the mix. That pricing structure will hurt the surface.

I think we'll need to compare a Touch version of Office to Pages. I don't miss Office at all.
Perhaps. But I would say the 7-8" range is a different marketplace. Similar, yes, but different. MS isn't aimed at the 7" crowd, it wants business people.

Tech198
Oct 18, 2012, 12:00 PM
I'm actually quite disapointed of the Surface price tag.

Geckotek
Oct 18, 2012, 12:19 PM
I'm actually quite disapointed of the Surface price tag.

Me too, I want a free one. :D

LLIBSETAG
Oct 18, 2012, 01:48 PM
Microsoft will give all of its employees a free Surface & count the sales as being in the millions on the first day plus offer free Beeber concert tickets for all the kiddies who will grab them & leave to go to the Apple store next door & buy an iPad Nano Tablet.

Commercial? Geeks becoming Gleeks.

k995
Oct 18, 2012, 02:12 PM
I don't know what you are on about. You seem to be responding to some other argument than the one I suggested. I backed up this argument with two articles documenting the issues with the OEMs. They are peeved, and in at least one case, have said so. Not sure how anyone can advance a more definite, validated argument then that.

You said it would be a serieus issue for MS, while reality is that the OEM who complained barely push MS products.

IJ Reilly
Oct 18, 2012, 03:17 PM
You said it would be a serieus issue for MS, while reality is that the OEM who complained barely push MS products.

I said it might be a serious issue if the Surface is a success, but my main point is that it's a big change in the relationships between Microsoft and the Windows OEMs.

The OEMs have to sell Microsoft products, not "push" them. Acer for one is a big Windows OEM. They'd be a partner with Microsoft even if they hadn't agreed to develop Windows RT tablets, which they have. Now Microsoft has positioned themselves as both a partner and a competitor. That's a new relationship, and very different relationship. if Acer is already publicly raising questions about whether this playing field can possibly be level, then you have to bet the others are as well, if only in private.

More commentary on the issue that you insist doesn't exist:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411123,00.asp

aristotle
Oct 18, 2012, 03:34 PM
So? large companies using this wont have any problems programming for it, rest can by pro version.

Do you honestly believe that most companies are going to bother developing in-house Metro apps? Really?

Net yet

This has been discussed ad nauseum already. RT will not support joining a windows domain which mean that you cannot directly log into exchange with your domain account and you would have to use Outlook Web access or some other authentication method like Active Sync instead which the IT people would have to configure for you.

AD has nothing to do with running enterprise stuff, its an easy way of managing, and you forget the pro tablet.

You obviously do not work for large enterprise with a domain tree. I do. As I mentioned above, you need to have domain support in order to connect to Exchange the traditional way and you would have to enable an alternative method of accessing email such as OWA.


No you are not better of, you are actually a lot worse of in a lot of cases, but yes it does work in some way. But I highly doubt its a better experience (doubt as the surface still has to be released and people talk as they have been using it for months) then either of the surface tablets.
I think you are talking out of your arse quite frankly. I have accessed my desktop through citrix access gateway with RDP as well as Outlook on my iPad and mac with citrix receiver.

Hmm, I was really meant to say that the Surface should seamlessly fit into an enterprise set up, connect to your outlook email and calendar, load the smaller spreadsheets and smaller word docs. But isn't that the vast majority of stuff that is done at the consumer and non-hardcore level? Increasingly stuff is just going to be emulated on your local machine while the work gets done at a back office server. Don't you think that Microsoft is probably going to be the best at this and the company IT department is going to be most familiar with their solution? Citrix tries to do this, but it doesn't seem fantastic. I suspect that the Surface RT will be able to connect to an enterprise solution running Windows 8 on real computers in the back office and the experience is going to be pretty good since that OS will be optimized for touch screen controls.
Unless if your IT department reconfigures their stuff to allow you to access your Exchange server without domain authentication, you are out of luck on a Windows RT device as far as Exchange email and calendaring is concerned.

As I already mentioned to the other guy, you can access servers with a Citrix Receiver client on an iPad just fine or with an RDP client to access a Terminal server.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Windows RT integrates with the enterprise when it does not. You could by the Pro version a year from now but it will probably cost you over 1k so you would be better off with an Ultrabook like the Macbook Air.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 03:50 PM
You could by the Pro version a year from now but it will probably cost you over 1k so you would be better off with an Ultrabook like the Macbook Air.

It comes out January.

Question, though. Why would people be better off buying an ultrabook over the Pro? Assuming that both have roughly equivalent performance, of course.

aristotle
Oct 18, 2012, 04:43 PM
It comes out January.

Question, though. Why would people be better off buying an ultrabook over the Pro? Assuming that both have roughly equivalent performance, of course.
Uh, because an Ultrabook like the Macbook Air will probably have better performance than the Surface?

Unless if MSFT is going to take a bath (lose money) on each unit, they cannot compete with Apple on economies of scale for components like Flash storage and ram. They either have to charge more or offer lower quality components and lower performance.

Isn't it funny how Apple is now the big dog when it comes to economies of scale for flash memory when a decade ago, they were struggling to get parts from IBM and Motorola and competing against companies running Intel like Dell who had economies of scale in their favour?

Geckotek
Oct 18, 2012, 04:45 PM
Uh, because an Ultrabook like the Macbook Air will probably have better performance than the Surface?

Unless if MSFT is going to take a bath (lose money) on each unit, they cannot compete with Apple on economies of scale for components like Flash storage and ram. They either have to charge more or offer lower quality components and lower performance.

Isn't it funny how Apple is now the big dog when it comes to economies of scale for flash memory when a decade ago, they were struggling to get parts from IBM and Motorola and competing against companies running Intel like Dell who had economies of scale in their favour?

You've made a lot of assumptions. We know Apple gets good pricing, but what makes you think MS wouldn't be able to do the same in a market that they have been driving for decades?

Also, why would you assume that an Ultrabook is more powerful than the Surface Pro before we have any specs?

Rogifan
Oct 18, 2012, 04:50 PM
It comes out January.

Question, though. Why would people be better off buying an ultrabook over the Pro? Assuming that both have roughly equivalent performance, of course.

Decent keyboard and trackpad?

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 05:06 PM
Uh, because an Ultrabook like the Macbook Air will probably have better performance than the Surface?

Unless if MSFT is going to take a bath (lose money) on each unit, they cannot compete with Apple on economies of scale for components like Flash storage and ram. They either have to charge more or offer lower quality components and lower performance.

Isn't it funny how Apple is now the big dog when it comes to economies of scale for flash memory when a decade ago, they were struggling to get parts from IBM and Motorola and competing against companies running Intel like Dell who had economies of scale in their favour?

Considering the price of the RT, I kinda doubt they're gonna attempt undercutting the price of the Pro. Like I've said before, I'll be honestly surprised if it comes out under $1000.

Though all things equal, there's no reason to assume the Surface will run any worse than the Air. Size wouldn't be an issue. The Air actually looks thinner than what it is because it tapers down. At its thickets, it's 20mm. Roughly double the thickenss of the iPad. The Surface Pro doesn't have quite as large of a surface area as the Air, but it also doesn't have a taper, thus potentially about the same amount of room. It's not too off base to assume MS could stuff about the same hardware into it without having to sacrifice anything.

Or to simplify, you could say the Surface Pro is an 11" Air with the keyboard taken out, and the screen placed in front of it. Or it's an ultrabook in a different form factor.

APlotdevice
Oct 18, 2012, 05:14 PM
Also, why would you assume that an Ultrabook is more powerful than the Surface Pro before we have any specs?

The Surface will have greater heat and space constraints than an ultrabook. So it's a pretty safe bet that the hardware won't run as fast.

Geckotek
Oct 18, 2012, 05:19 PM
The Surface will have greater heat and space constraints than an ultrabook. So it's a pretty safe bet that the hardware won't run as fast.

You must be looking at different ultrabooks than I am then.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 05:31 PM
The Surface will have greater heat and space constraints than an ultrabook. So it's a pretty safe bet that the hardware won't run as fast.

The Pro is gonna be a bit thicker than the RT. They'll have as much room to dissipate heat as any ultrabook.

APlotdevice
Oct 18, 2012, 05:38 PM
You must be looking at different ultrabooks than I am then.

Thnk about it... The hardware and battery on an ultrabook are fit into the keyboard section. On a tablet all that needs to fit behind the screen. An ultrabook is usually set down on a table while in use. A tablet is usually supported in ones hands.

----------

The Pro is gonna be a bit thicker than the RT. They'll have as much room to dissipate heat as any ultrabook.

The problem is said heat will be dissipating into your palms. And the LCD for that matter.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 05:43 PM
But the problem is said heat will be dissipating into your palms.

It'll be warm, that's for sure. On a guess, I'd say the heat will be dissipated through the center top and bottom, while your hands will usually be placed along the left or right side.

I guess it all depends on the specs and how it's designed.

maxwelltech
Oct 18, 2012, 05:55 PM
So your willing to pay more for a giant phone? Imo.

WIndows 8 blows away iOS

Not trying to argue here, but I am not personally going to buy a product that is not being proven to work very well. I am not a person who has the money to try out every new and cool product. I am not totally against it, as I might pick it up if I liked it in person, but for now, I prefer the iPad.

DingleButt
Oct 18, 2012, 08:00 PM
Thnk about it... The hardware and battery on an ultrabook are fit into the keyboard section. On a tablet all that needs to fit behind the screen. An ultrabook is usually set down on a table while in use. A tablet is usually supported in ones hands.

----------



The problem is said heat will be dissipating into your palms. And the LCD for that matter.

Pro has venting ALL around the edges if you watch the unveiling.
http://www1.pcmag.com/media/images/292706-venting.jpg

KevinN206
Oct 18, 2012, 11:34 PM
Do you honestly believe that most companies are going to bother developing in-house Metro apps? Really?

This has been discussed ad nauseum already. RT will not support joining a windows domain which mean that you cannot directly log into exchange with your domain account and you would have to use Outlook Web access or some other authentication method like Active Sync instead which the IT people would have to configure for you.

You obviously do not work for large enterprise with a domain tree. I do. As I mentioned above, you need to have domain support in order to connect to Exchange the traditional way and you would have to enable an alternative method of accessing email such as OWA.

I think you are talking out of your arse quite frankly. I have accessed my desktop through citrix access gateway with RDP as well as Outlook on my iPad and mac with citrix receiver.


Unless if your IT department reconfigures their stuff to allow you to access your Exchange server without domain authentication, you are out of luck on a Windows RT device as far as Exchange email and calendaring is concerned.

As I already mentioned to the other guy, you can access servers with a Citrix Receiver client on an iPad just fine or with an RDP client to access a Terminal server.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that Windows RT integrates with the enterprise when it does not. You could by the Pro version a year from now but it will probably cost you over 1k so you would be better off with an Ultrabook like the Macbook Air.

Doesn't the built-in Mail and Calendars interface with Exchange? I know on WP7, I can connect to my Exchange email and calendar and everything is automatically pushed and synced. Granted, it only supports email and calendar, but it's really all that my company needs. Even then, Surface RT is meant to be managed with SCCM 2012. Even more, Microsoft isn't targeting Surface RT to enterprises users. It's a credible BYOD, but I believe the Surface Pro is what enterprises should be using.

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 01:09 AM
Do you honestly believe that most companies are going to bother developing in-house Metro apps? Really?
They already develop such things for the ipad with its limited use, now they can put it on every desktop/tablet they own that runs windows 8




This has been discussed ad nauseum already. RT will not support joining a windows domain which mean
And you get that from "not yet"?



I think you are talking out of your arse quite frankly. I have accessed my desktop through citrix access gateway with RDP as well as Outlook on my iPad and mac with citrix receiver.

I have ass well and have supported large scale citrix environments, for th user it usualy a lot less "friendly" .

And again you dont have any clue what MS is going to provide as capabilities for its tablets between now and 6-12months. So I would suggest you stop pretending you do.

aristotle
Oct 19, 2012, 01:10 AM
Doesn't the built-in Mail and Calendars interface with Exchange? I know on WP7, I can connect to my Exchange email and calendar and everything is automatically pushed and synced. Granted, it only supports email and calendar, but it's really all that my company needs. Even then, Surface RT is meant to be managed with SCCM 2012. Even more, Microsoft isn't targeting Surface RT to enterprises users. It's a credible BYOD, but I believe the Surface Pro is what enterprises should be using.
Windows 7 can join a domain as long as it is not the home edition. Windows RT is like the home edition minus the ability to run non-metro apps other than Microsoft written ones recompiled for ARM.

I work on a windows 7 enterprise edition laptop everyday at work which is connected to a corporate domain.

It is possible configure Exchange to use other authentication methods but the default setup is through domain accounts for desktops and laptops physically connected to the network.

I have been writing software on NT since the 4.0 days.

@k995: You are confused. Windows Surface Pro will be running Windows 8 whereas this product we are talking about uses an ARM processor instead of an X86 processor and it runs Windows RT which can only run third party apps that are compiled against WinRT.

So Windows Surface Pro will likely cost over a 1000 dollars, it will have worse battery life because it uses an Intel chip and it will be running windows 8 Pro which can join domains whereas Windows RT cannot.

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 01:21 AM
I said it might be a serious issue if the Surface is a success, but my main point is that it's a big change in the relationships between Microsoft and the Windows OEMs.
Again you simply ignore what I say, the biggest 3 oems arent in the tablet market currently and are thinking of entering it with windows 8 .

Again this is no different from google and android in the smartphone market .



The OEMs have to sell Microsoft products, not "push" them. Acer for one is a big Windows OEM. They'd be a partner with Microsoft even if they hadn't agreed to develop Windows RT tablets, which they have. Now Microsoft has positioned themselves as both a partner and a competitor. That's a new relationship, and very different relationship. if Acer is already publicly raising questions about whether this playing field can possibly be level, then you have to bet the others are as well, if only in private.

More commentary on the issue that you insist doesn't exist:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2411123,00.asp

I never said it doesnt exist , I am saying you see too much importance in it .

Acer is small in the tablet market and 4-5 in the MS oem market

----------


@k995: You are confused. Windows Surface Pro will be running Windows 8 whereas this product we are talking about uses an ARM processor instead of an X86 processor and it runs Windows RT which can only run third party apps that are compiled against WinRT.
Yes I know, it still windows 8 and if you read before it was about the metro apps.

I dont see why companies would write apps for the ipad and not for metro who would be usable on a lot more devices.



So Windows Surface Pro will likely cost over a 1000 dollars, it will have worse battery life because it uses an Intel chip and it will be running windows 8 Pro which can join domains whereas Windows RT cannot.

The price you dont know, and as for the rest: so?

anthonyp01
Oct 19, 2012, 08:22 AM
Must admit, that keyboard looks pretty nice.

sputnikv
Oct 19, 2012, 09:32 AM
if anything, i have to commend microsoft for getting out of their comfort zone with this one.

Rogifan
Oct 19, 2012, 09:34 AM
This Wall Street analyst is on CNBC talking about how Windows 8 is optimized for touch and how users might struggle more with traditional keyboard and mouse. At the same time he's talking up the fact that Microsoft & OEM tablets have Office as a selling feature which Apple doesn't have. Two questions I have:

1. If Windows 8 is all about touch how come Microsoft is putting so much focus on the touch and type covers with their Surface advertising? I have yet to see a photo or advertisement from Microsoft showing the Surface without the cover attached.

2. Has anyone attempted to do real work in Office on a tablet without using a keyboard/mouse/trackpad? I use Excel at work every day. I can't imagine the experience being very pleasant without a traditional keyboard or mouse.

3. There's a slew of touch enabled devices coming from Microsoft's OEM partners. Can someone explain how touching a laptop screen or desktop monitor makes sense or is even ergonomical? The last thing I want on my laptop or desktop screen is a bunch of greasy fingerprints. Doesn't it make more sense to build the touch features into the trackpads rather than the screen? And if it's a convertible device have touch on the screen only enabled when the screen is not attached to the keyboard?

Personally I'm not convinced these 'it's the best of a tablet and laptop' devices will work. I'm more in Tim Cook's camp where this could be a compromise that makes both experiences less than optimal. I think tablets are meant to be more consumption vs content creation devices. And I don't see what's wrong with that.

IJ Reilly
Oct 19, 2012, 11:10 AM
Again you simply ignore what I say, the biggest 3 oems arent in the tablet market currently and are thinking of entering it with windows 8 .

Again this is no different from google and android in the smartphone market .


It is different, if for no other reason than the 30 years of history between Microsoft and the OEMs. The OEMs are complaining for a reason, one you presume to be unimportant, based upon no logic that I can detect or imagine. The rest of your argument I have in fact ignored, because it's got nothing to do with my point, or the point of the several articles I have now posted backing up what I have said (none of which you have addressed in any way shape or form). And for probably the fourth and definitely the last time, the degree to which this is important is dependent on the level of success of the Surface.

bobmiller1
Oct 19, 2012, 11:37 AM
That's correct and my IT guy is pretty excited about having to manage one OS over Androids and iOS in the environment.
On a side note, has anyone seen any deals for surface? I saw some here but not sure if they will work or not.
http://www.packersave.com/stores/Microsoft-Store/


Wrong, MS is rolling out support for Surface in SCCM. Can't manage iOS devices with SCCM.

Our company is already planning to buy some to pilot test. I have to co-workers, one a former iOS guy migrated to Android and another a former BB buy recently migrated to Android, chomping at the bit to buy a Surface.

Of course, we just made a VERY public purchase of a lot of iPads already. :D

Just saying, don't count MS out and I think a lot of your presumptions are incorrect.

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 11:43 AM
It is different, if for no other reason than the 30 years of history between Microsoft and the OEMs. The OEMs are complaining for a reason, one you presume to be unimportant, based upon no logic that I can detect or imagine.
Actully its inverse YOU blow something out based on a small article about 1 company


No reason? How about the fact that the only complaining doesnt have any large tablet marketshare or is among the largest OEM's?

YOU complain as well, yet it really doesnt matter to MS that you do.

Ignore it all you want these simple facts and believe MS has serious issues, but thats just you hoping (for whatever strange reason you have something against MS)

Titanium81
Oct 20, 2012, 10:50 AM
But, with the larger native resolution both of these will fit more usable content on the screen to start with.

The extra width on the RT allows you to actually multi-task.

Regardless of the Retina display, most apps are designed for 1024x768, so might look clearer but show less content (without zooming).

Also the MS tablet screen is optically bonded, which will bring the quality closer to the Ipads without amping the resolution.

Being able to truly multi-task is huge.

Sorry bud, but this makes absolutely no sense. Enjoy your Microsoft tablet/computer/surface (whatever it is). The iPad 3 is the superior device.

Aidan5806
Oct 20, 2012, 12:36 PM
Which patents in particular does it infringe?

while being licensed it uses apple magnetic attachment patent

----------

Are you actually out of your mind? Do you really think you even understand a single patent? Have you ever read through a patent description in detail? Do you know what portions describe what is protected as opposed to possible use cases? If it wasn't for the "edit" note, I would have assumed this was sarcasm. On a side note, Apple and MS are known for cross licensing. This doesn't really indicate whether such a device requires any of Apple's patents, but there was an entire article mentioning potential cross licensing between the two.

actually it was partially sarcasm and yes i do understand how patents work. if apples magnetics attachment patent wasn't being license it would easily take these coves off the shelves

Sue De Nimes
Oct 20, 2012, 01:39 PM
while being licensed it uses apple magnetic attachment patent

So it doesn't infringe on that patent. Any patents it does ACTUALLY infringe?

Aidan5806
Oct 20, 2012, 02:09 PM
So it doesn't infringe on that patent. Any patents it does ACTUALLY infringe?

im 100% positive that the multi touch interfacing on a cover patent that apple filed is violated and was not liscenced but i doubt charges will be pressed because apple has yet to implement the patent

Sue De Nimes
Oct 20, 2012, 02:16 PM
im 100% positive that the multi touch interfacing on a cover patent that apple filed is violated and was not liscenced but i doubt charges will be pressed because apple has yet to implement the patent

I am actually interested in this. Any evidence to back this up?

Aidan5806
Oct 20, 2012, 05:47 PM
I am actually interested in this. Any evidence to back this up?

Well im sure you can check this sites archives to find the original story on the patent and obviously there hasn't been a product with it implemented (made by apple), and also obviously the list of patents apple has licensed is not public. However just seeing the macrumors take on makes it clear that the touch cover uses this technology.

SandynJosh
Oct 21, 2012, 01:05 AM
So basically, if I switch to or being with a Microsoft Surface, I will be 100% guaranteed to dance my pants off.

Thats really the only takeaway I got from that commercial.


My thought too... Each Surface comes pre-loaded with a video showing you how to dance like Monkey Bay himself! Now, bust some moves, toss some tablets, and scream yourself hoarse!

DJTaurus
Oct 21, 2012, 01:42 AM
Microsoft’s Surface is Apple’s Ping
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2012/10/19/microsofts-surface-is-apples-ping/

SandynJosh
Oct 21, 2012, 01:45 AM
This Wall Street analyst is on CNBC talking about how Windows 8 is optimized for touch and how users might struggle more with traditional keyboard and mouse. At the same time he's talking up the fact that Microsoft & OEM tablets have Office as a selling feature which Apple doesn't have. Two questions I have:

Before answering your questions I want to mention that MS "Office" on the RT tablet is highly crippled. It is there more in name only. You'll hear a lot more about this once it's on the market. Apple's iWork will open and allow editing to MS Office documents far easier than the Windows 8 implementation.

1. If Windows 8 is all about touch how come Microsoft is putting so much focus on the touch and type covers with their Surface advertising? I have yet to see a photo or advertisement from Microsoft showing the Surface without the cover attached.

The corporate culture at MS is fixated on having a keyboard with all Windows computers and this includes tablets. Think of "touch" having been added to the OS but not central to the software experience. It is not safe to think otherwise within MS.

2. Has anyone attempted to do real work in Office on a tablet without using a keyboard/mouse/trackpad? I use Excel at work every day. I can't imagine the experience being very pleasant without a traditional keyboard or mouse.

The tiny amount that is known about touch-enabled Office Excel on a Samsung tablet shows it to be far from ideal. First, Office is designed to only work in the landscape mode. If your project is tall and not wide, you will be unhappy for sure. Next, touching a cell to edit is hard as you cannot enlarge cells to easily poke the right one. When the cell opens it is still tiny and so it the drop down option choices. You feel like you're trying to poke a doorbell button with a ten-foot fishing pole. How badly crippled the Surface version of Office is will be known by the end of October.

3. There's a slew of touch enabled devices coming from Microsoft's OEM partners. Can someone explain how touching a laptop screen or desktop monitor makes sense or is even ergonomical? The last thing I want on my laptop or desktop screen is a bunch of greasy fingerprints. Doesn't it make more sense to build the touch features into the trackpads rather than the screen? And if it's a convertible device have touch on the screen only enabled when the screen is not attached to the keyboard?

I'm of the mind that it doesn't make any sense to leave the keyboard/touchpad to touch a screen. Especially since much of the Apple gestures will not be included in the applications, including Office.

Personally I'm not convinced these 'it's the best of a tablet and laptop' devices will work. I'm more in Tim Cook's camp where this could be a compromise that makes both experiences less than optimal. I think tablets are meant to be more consumption vs content creation devices. And I don't see what's wrong with that.

Tablets are creations devices, in high-profile court cases you will see them predominately in use by reporters and bloggers. I believe that spreadsheets (as well as documents) will find more creative use once the programs are voice aware. I really don't expect to see Microsoft be in the forefront in this as it's counter to their culture.

The Surface is not really a tablet in my thinking. It requires a table top to operate on. There's no way to prop the Surface up on your lap and have room for the floppy keyboard in front of the device. So you have to find a surface to operate on and use the kickstand to prop up the screen. A laptop would actually work far better and can be operated easier on a lap or table top. The Surface is just a very bad laptop and a consumption-only tablet.

golf1410
Oct 21, 2012, 02:08 AM
These tablets will have pretty bad battery life.

Renzatic
Oct 21, 2012, 02:54 AM
The Surface is not really a tablet in my thinking. It requires a table top to operate on.

What is it with people saying that? It includes a keyboard, and suddenly it's "not a tablet". You don't have to use the keyboard in all situations. You can take the keyboard off and use the onscreen one if you want. Just like an iPad.

If the iPad came with the bluetooth keyboard, would you also consider it "not a tablet"?

It's weird. Everyone here has the internet at their disposal, and is probably pretty comfortable using it. It's amazing that, despite that, there are so many ill informed people running around.

Microsoft’s Surface is Apple’s Ping
http://www.roughlydrafted.com/2012/10/19/microsofts-surface-is-apples-ping/

That's ignorant. Because MS failed at tablets before, they're likely to fail again. Like Apple having a second go at Ping.

...wait. Didn't Apple completely fail with the Newton? So why'd they try again with the iPad? What idiots, right?

Sue De Nimes
Oct 21, 2012, 04:16 AM
Well im sure you can check this sites archives to find the original story on the patent and obviously there hasn't been a product with it implemented (made by apple), and also obviously the list of patents apple has licensed is not public. However just seeing the macrumors take on makes it clear that the touch cover uses this technology.

I can't find anything to show it wasn't licensed. This is something you are 100% sure of.

Seeing as Microsoft have licensed other Apple patents I can't see how you are 100% positive they have infringed any patent.

Can you show how you have reached this degree of certainty?

Aidan5806
Oct 21, 2012, 03:55 PM
I can't find anything to show it wasn't licensed. This is something you are 100% sure of.

Seeing as Microsoft have licensed other Apple patents I can't see how you are 100% positive they have infringed any patent.

Can you show how you have reached this degree of certainty?

There is no precedent to license a patent that is not being used by a competitor because there is virtually no chance of retaliation due to the fact that there is no intellectual property nor a device to base a lawsuit off of.

Renzatic
Oct 21, 2012, 04:07 PM
I don't think you know how patents work.

Sue De Nimes
Oct 21, 2012, 04:31 PM
I don't think you know how patents work.

Indeed.

Probably best for Aidan5806 to refrain from making outlandish claims that can't be substantiated.

alexN350z
Oct 21, 2012, 07:52 PM
[QUOTE=G51989;16058861]So your willing to pay more for a giant phone? Imo.

WIndows 8 blows away iOS[COLOR="#808080"]

How? Can you put more detail?

I am going to upgrade to windows 8 and buy lumia 920, also doing some windows 8 app dev. But I am still not sure the money and effort worth it.

G51989
Oct 21, 2012, 10:20 PM
[QUOTE=G51989;16058861]So your willing to pay more for a giant phone? Imo.

WIndows 8 blows away iOS[COLOR="#808080"]

How? Can you put more detail?

I am going to upgrade to windows 8 and buy lumia 920, also doing some windows 8 app dev. But I am still not sure the money and effort worth it.

Well iOS is a phone OS, its very limited in what it can do, hell it cant even multi task, which is the biggest killer for me, and you cant even change your default App for creation actions.

While windows 8 is a full blown Desktop OS that also works on phones and tablets. Desktop mode is always a click away.

dmelgar
Oct 21, 2012, 10:27 PM
[QUOTE=alexN350z;16092124]

Well iOS is a phone OS, its very limited in what it can do, hell it cant even multi task, which is the biggest killer for me

I'm not sure what youre talking about, but this statement is wrong so the rest isn't likely to be credible.

----------

What is it with people saying that? It includes a keyboard, and suddenly it's "not a tablet". You don't have to use the keyboard in all situations. You can take the keyboard off and use the onscreen one if you want. Just like an iPad.

If the iPad came with the bluetooth keyboard, would you also consider it "not a tablet"?

It's weird. Everyone here has the internet at their disposal, and is probably pretty comfortable using it. It's amazing that, despite that, there are so many ill informed people running around.



That's ignorant. Because MS failed at tablets before, they're likely to fail again. Like Apple having a second go at Ping.

...wait. Didn't Apple completely fail with the Newton? So why'd they try again with the iPad? What idiots, right?

Microsoft clearly doesn't get what a tablet is about.
If you ask about their new touch screen tablet, and all they can do is make a big deal about their keyboard and trackpad... Its a clue.

G51989
Oct 21, 2012, 10:59 PM
[QUOTE=G51989;16092831]

I'm not sure what youre talking about, but this statement is wrong so the rest isn't likely to be credible.[COLOR="#808080"]



Can I run more than one program at the same time on iOS? Like have 2 programs up on the screen on the same time on an iPad? Nope.

Windows 8 can do that. Its a real OS vs a phone OS

Microsoft clearly doesn't get what a tablet is about.
If you ask about their new touch screen tablet, and all they can do is make a big deal about their keyboard and trackpad... Its a clue.

Enterprise is what Microsofts bread and butter is, and those people care about things like Keyboards, and Office, and full system intergration. Which the Surface has, and the iPad does not.

Tech198
Oct 21, 2012, 11:59 PM
[QUOTE=dmelgar;16092854]

Can I run more than one program at the same time on iOS? Like have 2 programs up on the screen on the same time on an iPad? Nope.

Windows 8 can do that. Its a real OS vs a phone OS



Enterprise is what Microsofts bread and butter is, and those people care about things like Keyboards, and Office, and full system intergration. Which the Surface has, and the iPad does not.


Need to fix those tags. ..Lookin messy..

+1 Thats one advantage of MS Surface.... I constanstly have to think when i'm trying to type my application-specifuc password on my ipad, and constantly switch bwteern Safari and Mail. Only to find Apple clears whats been typed when you click in the field... Grrrrrr.

Hence, you NEED a computer/seperate screen for this, (... Or a better memory) :/

hleewell
Oct 26, 2012, 10:05 AM
iPod commercial - playing music and dancing, what you do when you listen to music. Thus representing what the product does, play music.

Surface commercial - following the idea that the commercial shows what the product does... the surface, well, it clicks. Oh and maybe that you can toss, or even kick it.

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They have been around a long time, you can get them for the iPad. Generally, they suck.

I agree with you on the point that the Surface ads wants to mimic Apple's energetic iPod ads but end up with a wrong tone. Apple is careful and deliberate with their visual campaign, the running & jumping are reserved for their iPod line-up. If you see the iPad commercial, they are mostly sedate and sober, with lotsa cute kids smiling at the camera, and narrated with a fine-wine voice by actor Peter Coyote. A sophisticated family-friendly device is the message here.

Surface seems to ignore the traditional Microsoft users, and go for the members of the church of Apple. It's a wrong move.

But I have to disagree with the keyboard cum cover: it is more functional than Apple Smart Cover.

Kebabselector
Oct 26, 2012, 04:42 PM
I was wondering how much space RT takes up, found the answer on a Microsoft site (http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_rt-windows_install/faq-windows-rt-and-windows-8/06bd1ac1-c7ba-40ce-8baa-3f4773944cd9)......

Q: How much disk space does Windows RT use?
Approximately 12 GBs of disk space, this is inclusive of Office 2013 RT.

No wonder they didn't ship a 16gb version then. :eek: