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MacRumors
Oct 16, 2012, 12:41 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/16/microsoft-releases-pricing-on-surface-tablet-ships-october-26th/)


With an unfortunate sense of timing, Microsoft has released pricing and availability information (http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/16/3509982/microsoft-surface-price-499-pre-order) for its new 'Surface' tablet that was originally announced (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/06/18/microsoft-announces-new-surface-tablet-new-hardware-and-software-based-on-windows-8/) back in June. The release occurred just hours before Apple sent out invitations to its iPad Mini launch event next week.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2012/10/NewImage21.png
The Surface will begin shipping in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, France, Germany and Hong Kong on Friday, October 26th. The Windows RT-powered Surface starts at $499 for a 32GB model, $100 cheaper than an iPad with comparable storage. The Touch Cover (http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/18/3095396/microsoft-surface-cover-multitouch-keyboard), one of the more interesting innovations in Microsoft's tablet venture, isn't included for that price; it's only available as part of a $599 bundle with the same 32GB tablet.

There is also a 64GB model that includes the Touch Cover for $699. Separately, the Touch Cover is $119 and the Type Cover (http://www.theverge.com/2012/6/18/3095699/microsoft-type-cover-keyboard-surface-revealed) is $129.

8mSckyoAMHg
The Surface is available for preorder (http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en/us/default.aspx) from Microsoft's website.

Article Link: Microsoft Releases Pricing on Surface Tablet, Ships October 26th (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/16/microsoft-releases-pricing-on-surface-tablet-ships-october-26th/)



GeekLawyer
Oct 16, 2012, 12:42 PM
Wow, Apple sure stole the tablet thunder today.

I would have also expected the RT version of the Surface to be more competitively priced. $500 seems like a high cost of entry for an unproven product with a limited app ecosystem.

vkramer
Oct 16, 2012, 12:46 PM
So basically, if I switch to or being with a Microsoft Surface, I will be 100% guaranteed to dance my pants off.

Thats really the only takeaway I got from that commercial.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 12:46 PM
M$ steps on itself once again. Pricing offers no one but the hardest corest M$ fans (are there any left?) a reason to buy. It can't compete with either Android or iOS at this price point. Enterprise already hates Windows 8 and loves iOS. Consumers have long felt trapped by Windows until iOS presented them a post PC option. Anti-Apple folks adopted Android. Who's left to buy Surface?

techpr
Oct 16, 2012, 12:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8E_zMLCRNg

LimeiBook86
Oct 16, 2012, 12:47 PM
You disappointed me Microsoft...

I was sad not to see some guy trying to lug a pool-table sized tablet around... damn :p ;) It's the next big thing!

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 12:48 PM
So basically, if I switch to or being with a Microsoft Surface, I will be 100% guaranteed to dance my pants off.

Thats really the only takeaway I got from that commercial.

Only if you are posing as Steve Balmer for Halloween. :D

adildacoolset
Oct 16, 2012, 12:49 PM
The surface looks nice, especially with a nice price. Unfortunately, apple spoiled me with the ipad retina display. Now I can't look at a non-retina display, especially a tablet, the same way now. Every thing else sucks.

MaxxTraxx
Oct 16, 2012, 12:49 PM
I would be tempted by this offer, I'm sure it'll be a good device.

winston1236
Oct 16, 2012, 12:50 PM
M$ steps on itself once again. Pricing offers no one but the hardest corest M$ fans (are there any left?) a reason to buy. It can't compete with either Android or iOS at this price point. Enterprise already hates Windows 8 and loves iOS. Consumers have long felt trapped by Windows until iOS presented them a post PC option. Anti-Apple folks adopted Android. Who's left to buy Surface?

Mostly true except enterprise loves windows 7 not os anything

Aidan5806
Oct 16, 2012, 12:50 PM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT UTILIZES SO MANY APPLE PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!

EDIT: Replaced "Violates" with "Utilizes" because maybe thats not the best way to put it.

FirePhantom
Oct 16, 2012, 12:51 PM
Hearing those clicks, all I can think of is the little kickstand snapping off after a month of use.

imariopereira
Oct 16, 2012, 12:52 PM
I liked the video...
I really really feel that Microsoft is going in the right direction now. :)

MacSignal
Oct 16, 2012, 12:52 PM
Unfortunate pricing. It will get better just like when Windows 9 replaces Windows 8.

tann
Oct 16, 2012, 12:54 PM
I think iPad 4 will come with 32gbs of storage at $499 :)

Hoping for a 128gb then! haha.

TheRealTVGuy
Oct 16, 2012, 12:54 PM
Mostly true except enterprise loves windows 7 not os anything

Really... Enterprise (companies) don't love Operating Systems. None? None at all?

Wow...

Senseotech
Oct 16, 2012, 12:55 PM
As someone in Windows-centric IT and who makes a lot of house calls for clients, I was excited about the Surface for the ability to have a light, small device running (almost) a full version Windows and Office. At this price point, I'll just wait until Office for iOS hits in the Spring and continue using my iPad for business AND personal use.

Hastings101
Oct 16, 2012, 12:56 PM
Too expensive. I know Microsoft wants to get into the higher end market but if people have to spend that much they'll probably think "I might as well buy an iPad" or something similar. They'd have much better luck with Intel-based tablets and marketing them as a more portable Windows computer.

GeekLawyer
Oct 16, 2012, 12:56 PM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT VIOLATES SO MANY PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!It doesn't violate Apple's patents. There is a cross-licensning deal for this technology between Apple and Microsoft. So, MS paid the piper. Which is maybe why it's so expensive? Just speculation on my part.

I do wonder if Microsoft will push the pricing model for storage down. Surface 32GB = iPad 16GB. We'll see.

firewood
Oct 16, 2012, 01:04 PM
Pricing offers no one but the hardest corest M$ fans (are there any left?) a reason to buy.

My guess is that some enterprise managers and developers with a bunch of C# business and Office related applications to port to a touch UI will feel more confident buying these at roughly price parity. Their actual users might still prefer iPads, but, except for BYOD situations, it's not their money.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 01:05 PM
M$ steps on itself once again. Pricing offers no one but the hardest corest M$ fans (are there any left?) a reason to buy. It can't compete with either Android or iOS at this price point. Enterprise already hates Windows 8 and loves iOS. Consumers have long felt trapped by Windows until iOS presented them a post PC option. Anti-Apple folks adopted Android. Who's left to buy Surface?

Wrong, MS is rolling out support for Surface in SCCM. Can't manage iOS devices with SCCM.

Our company is already planning to buy some to pilot test. I have to co-workers, one a former iOS guy migrated to Android and another a former BB buy recently migrated to Android, chomping at the bit to buy a Surface.

Of course, we just made a VERY public purchase of a lot of iPads already. :D

Just saying, don't count MS out and I think a lot of your presumptions are incorrect.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 01:05 PM
I'm sure Microsoft follows the Apple rumor mill well enough to know that the iPad mini release is very close, so the timing of this announcement was not unfortunate, nor was it a blunder. It was a deliberate effort to avoid being buried, as they might well have been had they'd waited until next week. At this point, Apple hasn't actually announced anything more than a media event, whereas Microsoft actually (and finally) pegged the price and shipping date for the Surface.

lglickman
Oct 16, 2012, 01:06 PM
I think that actor is the same one in the "Duquesne Whistle" video from Bob Dylan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mns9VeRguys

TimTheEnchanter
Oct 16, 2012, 01:07 PM
Apple hires Triumph the Insult Comic Dog to respond to Microsoft's announcement...

johncrab
Oct 16, 2012, 01:09 PM
MS is always a day (or four years) late and a dollar short when entering markets pioneered by others. The right thing to do was to start on the basic side and pick up those who have basic needs and back up at the price of an iPad and then grow it higher into the market. They's an unknown after all entering a crowded market and trying to go high end. That company has a lot of solid brain power. I just wish they would use it sometime.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 01:09 PM
YouTube: video (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8mSckyoAMHg)

What's the point of that commercial, other than to make you "feel" really good about a product they give you virtually no information regarding? No specs, no pricing, no availability, a brief comment about colours and apps on some website. This is advertising today - "buy our product so you'll feel better in life." There's nothing about what it does, what it can do, how it can help/benefit your life, other than to make you happier, which we never require them to prove. Might as well promise superhero powers if you buy their product.

This is why I never watch commercial television: the advertisements. They're catchy and fun, but they're so frigging manipulative I prefer to think for myself and decide for myself and make informed decisions not based on whether that woman in the bikini on the motorcycle comes with each purchase, or she'll be what's on offer after purchase in every woman who sees me on that bike.

Why not just do away with products entirely, give money to these corporate overlords and each time you pay they give you a drug injection that makes you feel better. At least they'd be honouring their promise they advertise in their commercials.

/steps down off soapbox

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 01:10 PM
Just saying, don't count MS out and I think a lot of your presumptions are incorrect.

I would not either. This may be the precisely the tablet product that some people have been itching to buy. We shall see about that... but the real issue here is that the Surface is royally ticking off Microsoft's Windows OEMs. It remains to be seen how Microsoft will navigate the partner/competitor issue with the OEMs into the future. The Surface is a pretty big change in direction for them.

Yamcha
Oct 16, 2012, 01:11 PM
I personally love Windows 8, and I think the price point is fair considering the storage, but they should have opted for $399 16GB Tablet, at $499 they are competing with the iPad 3 which has a retina display & huge app ecosystem..

decimortis
Oct 16, 2012, 01:12 PM
I think the video is just...

*puts on sunglasses*

...scratching the surface.

WHAAAAAAAAAA......

D.

Quu
Oct 16, 2012, 01:14 PM
I wouldn't buy one of these. Although it is running Windows it is running the ARM version so you instantly lose access to hundreds of thousands of pieces of Windows desktop x86 based software. That would be the main reason I'd want a Windows tablet because the Metro interface is largely unproven and devoid of applications.

So now that we know the ARM SKU starts at $499 the x86 version (Which Microsoft calls the Pro version) will probably start at $799 which prices it way out of the market.

This tablet feels really confused. I think I'll probably replace my iPad 2 with an iPad 4 whenever it releases.

nagromme
Oct 16, 2012, 01:15 PM
If it’s a great keyboard, with a good feel and durability, then it’s a great idea.

If it’s a poor keyboard, I wouldn’t want the cost or weight.

Either way, it’s got style, it’s original (well, except for the magnetic cover!) and I wish it well. I’d hate to be an early adopter with a lesser selection of true tablet apps, though.

I’m more interested in the Metro UI than the actual product though—it’s cool to see some original work like that, amid the sea of Apple copycats out there!

decimortis
Oct 16, 2012, 01:16 PM
What's the point of that commercial, other than to make you "feel" really good about a product they give you virtually no information regarding? No specs, no pricing, no availability, a brief comment about colours and apps on some website.

But, but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlHUz99l-eo

D.

Oohara
Oct 16, 2012, 01:16 PM
That keyboard cover is such a massive gimmick. All those available so far are absolutely horrid to type on. This one won't be any different.

-Ryan-
Oct 16, 2012, 01:16 PM
$500 seems like a high cost of entry for an unproven product with a limited app ecosystem.

I'm so glad you didn't advise Apple in early 2010.

decimortis
Oct 16, 2012, 01:19 PM
I'm so glad you didn't advise Apple in early 2010.

I'm not.
Maybe if he had, the price would have been lower. ;)

D.

KdParker
Oct 16, 2012, 01:22 PM
Too expensive. I know Microsoft wants to get into the higher end market but if people have to spend that much they'll probably think "I might as well buy an iPad" or something similar. They'd have much better luck with Intel-based tablets and marketing them as a more portable Windows computer.

Agreed. I will still have to look at the tablet, and I like the new direction of windows 8. I would have to take a risk to buy this over an iPad, but if the price where $300 or lower, It would be worth the risk.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 01:23 PM
I'm so glad you didn't advise Apple in early 2010.

How about 2007? At least in 2010 they had iOS devices.

I'm not.
Maybe if he had, the price would have been lower. ;)

D.

:D

lukin2006
Oct 16, 2012, 01:24 PM
I switched from a PC to an Apple about 9 years ago...being new too OSX I called Apple a couple times, they answered my question and solved my problem hassle free, and every time I've had to deal with Apple customer service I have had no issue.

The last PC I owned was an HP, had issue out of the box with windows, called HP, they gave me a number for Microsoft, I called Microsoft they wanted to charge me a fee, called HP and HP said use the restore disk and restore computer.

Has Microsoft customer service improved...one of the best thing I like about Apple.

zbarvian
Oct 16, 2012, 01:24 PM
That keyboard cover is such a massive gimmick. All those available so far are absolutely horrid to type on. This one won't be any different.

Riigggghhhtttt..

I haven't seen anything like the Touch Cover, except in sci-fi flicks. You haven't used it not know the engineering behind it, please reserve judgment.

ivan2002
Oct 16, 2012, 01:25 PM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT VIOLATES SO MANY PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!

It doesn't violate any patents. MS paid for all IP on it. Which is probably why it costs so much.

george-brooks
Oct 16, 2012, 01:27 PM
Leave it to Microsoft to make prices cheaper but also much more complex and confusing. I don't think the surface will do well for reasons others have said. Unproven, limited app ecosystem, still too expensive. I think most people will pay the extra $100 for the apple product over the microsoft product because it is universal, proven and hip. Some will certainly be attracted to the lower price and perhaps the windows ecosystem, but I don't think the surface will be a major iPad competitor for many years, if ever.

baryon
Oct 16, 2012, 01:27 PM
What I don't get about the Surface is that it has a kickstand and is always marketed with a keyboard… So, in a way, it's technically "meant to" look and work like a laptop, right? Except that it doesn't run a full OS as you'd expect from a laptop…

Sure, you can detach the keyboard and not use the stand, but the point is, these are the main selling features of the device. It's like saying "I've invented the car that runs on solar power, and its most awesome feature is that it can run on gas". And then I pretty much never mention that it runs on solar power ever again, except how awesome it is that it runs on gas.

CylonGlitch
Oct 16, 2012, 01:30 PM
But, but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlHUz99l-eo

D.

iPod commercial - playing music and dancing, what you do when you listen to music. Thus representing what the product does, play music.

Surface commercial - following the idea that the commercial shows what the product does... the surface, well, it clicks. Oh and maybe that you can toss, or even kick it.

----------

Riigggghhhtttt..

I haven't seen anything like the Touch Cover, except in sci-fi flicks. You haven't used it not know the engineering behind it, please reserve judgment.

They have been around a long time, you can get them for the iPad. Generally, they suck.

madflava54
Oct 16, 2012, 01:30 PM
I use a MBP and not the biggest fan of iOS. Was really excited about the Surface and will not pay $500 for an unproven product. At least iOS has a ton of developer support. I am one of those on the fence people and will likely just wait for iPad 4 and like someone mentioned earlier, run Office 2k13 on that.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 01:32 PM
But, but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlHUz99l-eo

D.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not singling out M$**t at all, I know they all do it.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 01:33 PM
Mostly true except enterprise loves windows 7 not os anything

iOS is making huge headway into enterprise. Yes, enterprise love Win 7, but Surface is Win 8, which enterprise is wary of. Win 7 is likely to continue to be the default business computer OS for another decade, but Apple is capturing the post PC enterprise market.

iMacFarlane
Oct 16, 2012, 01:36 PM
That commercial . . . I actually felt a pang of queasiness in my stomach during it.

Microsoft had (has?) a great opportunity to restore it's relevance. Shock the world, make us change again, like they did with Windows back in the day. Instead? Some Disney Channel dance video clearly aimed at the audience without the means to buy the featured product.

$500? Move along, nothing to see here . . .

goinskiing
Oct 16, 2012, 01:36 PM
This pricing seems more apporpriate for the Surface Pro of which would be rather compelling. With that said, I'm not sold on the whole Windows RT side of things, especially at this price point.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 01:39 PM
Just saying, don't count MS out and I think a lot of your presumptions are incorrect.

Fair enough, but I'd be willing to be Surface is going to be Vista-sized flop -- not on quality like Vista, but being too late too the game. You have your anecdotal stories, I have mine.

longofest
Oct 16, 2012, 01:41 PM
Wow, Apple sure stole the tablet thunder today.

I would have also expected the RT version of the Surface to be more competitively priced. $500 seems like a high cost of entry for an unproven product with a limited app ecosystem.

Apple introduced iPad at the exact same price. At the time, it was also "unproven." People mocked the name and questioned whether there was a purpose for this kind of device. There were also a very limited amount of iPad-native apps (I do not count pixel-doubled iPhone apps).

The entry price for the current model iPad remains $500. The iPad was and continues to be a hit.

The biggest thing MS has to do to get into the game is battle the notion that the only tablet worth buying is the iPad, which seems to be consumer sentiment. Microsoft has begun doing this with some decent-looking commercials as well as touting the Surface-exclusive features such as the admittedly slick cover/keyboard.

Faux Carnival
Oct 16, 2012, 01:47 PM
Well, Microsoft's biggest strength is its dominating power in the desktop OS market. When people start switching to Windows 8 on their desktops (which they will because from Oct 26 on, every computer will ship with one) metro apps will be all over the place.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 01:50 PM
I'd be willing to be Surface is going to be Vista-sized flop -- not on quality like Vista, but being too late to the game.

Yep. Like MS Phone 7 and the Zune and the Kin. They never were innovators, they just have always had a lot of money (made from copying others) which allowed them to do an even better job of copying still others (or acquiring them).

Don't look to MS for anything except a future business school case study.

linkgx1
Oct 16, 2012, 01:53 PM
$500 would of been a great price if....it was the PRO version. I have no idea what apps will be on the RT. Meh. I'll wait until Oct 26th. +

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 01:54 PM
Fair enough, but I'd be willing to be Surface is going to be Vista-sized flop -- not on quality like Vista, but being too late too the game. You have your anecdotal stories, I have mine.

This market is all of two years old, so it's far from too late for Microsoft to compete in it legitimately. Microsoft makes lots of mistakes, and they've already made some in the tablet market, but they don't give up and they've got the resources to keep coming back until they get it right. It's always a mistake to count Microsoft out of any game where they really want to play.

Kaibelf
Oct 16, 2012, 01:59 PM
So wait..... is this keyboard add-on $100 basically? No way.

pgiguere1
Oct 16, 2012, 02:00 PM
I'm so glad you didn't advise Apple in early 2010.

Competiton (or the lack thereof) changes everything.

I'm sure the Zune would have been a success if it launched 2 and a half years before the iPod, even without being cheaper.

Makosuke
Oct 16, 2012, 02:00 PM
I'm so glad you didn't advise Apple in early 2010.Very true, but in early 2010 Apple's competition was Windows tablets, which at the time had been a niche market joke for over half a decade.

In late 2012 Microsoft's competition is Apple, which has a two-and-a-half-year, market-dominating head start and is already, by most metrics, impacting Microsoft's actual PC sales with their tablet, Amazon, which has a one-year head start, rock-bottom prices, a media empire behind their product and a massive marketing machine, and Google, which has low prices, variety, and an existing app ecosystem.

I'm not saying that the Surface is a bad idea, or that it won't sell well, or even that this is a bad plan. But this is not 2010 anymore.

dampfnudel
Oct 16, 2012, 02:02 PM
The surface looks nice, especially with a nice price. Unfortunately, apple spoiled me with the ipad retina display. Now I can't look at a non-retina display, especially a tablet, the same way now. Every thing else sucks.

I hope Apple got the message with the iPad mini.

decimortis
Oct 16, 2012, 02:04 PM
iPod commercial - playing music and dancing, what you do when you listen to music. Thus representing what the product does, play music.

Surface commercial - following the idea that the commercial shows what the product does... the surface, well, it clicks. Oh and maybe that you can toss, or even kick it.

Don't be so naive / ignorant. The iPod does more than just play music (even back when these commercials were relevant) and the Surface does more than click. The commercials are meant to pump you up and hit you with some branding at the end. Nothing more. It's all about mindshare.

D.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 02:08 PM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT VIOLATES SO MANY PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!

Name one patent it violates. Just one.

I gotta admit, I'm also kinda disappointed in this. If MS really wanted to push this forward, they would've sold it more at a loss, and raked in the cash later after it carved its own healthy niche in the market.

As is, you're paying just as much for one as an iPad, without any of the perks. The hardware itself might be nice, and MS does have quite a few neat ideas going on with the thing, but the screen resolution isn't even as good as some of the better Android tablets, has barely even a quarter of the app selection of the iPad...

...why would anyone want to pay $500 for this? Office can only take you so far. Maybe later, when it's truly competitive. But now? Eh...

Still holding out hope for the Surface Pro, though.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 02:10 PM
This market is all of two years old, so it's far from too late for Microsoft to compete in it legitimately. Microsoft makes lots of mistakes, and they've already made some in the tablet market, but they don't give up and they've got the resources to keep coming back until they get it right. It's always a mistake to count Microsoft out of any game where they really want to play.

Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market. Android the other 40%. People have $100s and more invested in iOS and Android apps. Not to mention time spent learning and getting comfortable with those OSes. People are not going to be so quick to switch without a compelling reason, and Surface offers none. It's not bad, it's just too late.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 02:13 PM
I hope Apple got the message with the iPad mini.

This!

tirk
Oct 16, 2012, 02:14 PM
Only if you are posing as Steve Balmer for Halloween. :D

Not nice - it's meal time over here!! :eek:

k995
Oct 16, 2012, 02:16 PM
Funny how apple minded people are, barely any clear view it seems.

499 is quite competitive, 100 cheaper then asus or apple competition, a OS people know(or will know) and trust .

Big company beind it too push it, enterprise integration.

Should become a third mayor in the tablet world .

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 02:18 PM
Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market. Android the other 40%. People have $100s and more invested in iOS and Android apps. Not to mention time spent learning and getting comfortable with those OSes. People are not going to be so quick to switch without a compelling reason, and Surface offers none. It's not bad, it's just too late.

You leave out a couple of important facts. First, the tablet market is still growing by leaps and bounds, while the PC market is stagnant. Microsoft may not have been in the initial wave, but then neither was Google. It is not a settled market. Second, if Microsoft's Windows 8 strategy works (remains to be seen), the market for Surface apps will be legitimate. In fact the availability of Office alone will be enough for some people to consider a Surface.

How soon we forget, if Microsoft seriously wants into a market, they have the ability to throw huge sums at it and wait it out. This is exactly what they did with Xbox.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 02:19 PM
Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market. Android the other 40%. People have $100s and more invested in iOS and Android apps. Not to mention time spent learning and getting comfortable with those OSes. People are not going to be so quick to switch without a compelling reason, and Surface offers none. It's not bad, it's just too late.

Two years isn't anything. MS does have a difficult battle ahead of it, but hardly an insurmountable one. Just look at the console industry. They were going against Nintendo and Sony. Both companies who had incredibly popular products that were nearly household names out for far, far longer than two years. And now? MS currently has the best selling console this generation, and looks to continue that lead well into the next.

Though to play devils advocate, the Xbox offered a stable, steady, and well supported online gaming service, something the PS2 and Gamecube didn't have at the time. Plus they had Halo, a nice killer app to help draw attention to the platform. The Surface? Right now, it doesn't offer much over the iPad and various Android tablets besides Office, which, once again, will only take it so far.

akm3
Oct 16, 2012, 02:32 PM
SWEEEEEEET! Will it come in brown?!

Lesser Evets
Oct 16, 2012, 02:34 PM
Wow... nothing like the various vapor-ware ideas Msoft spewed from their limp undercover development wing.

It's kinda like 1984 Atari meets no-frills tablet maker of 2012. Bring on the bluescreen of repeated failure. You are guaranteed to have a very sluggish experience with their software on that device.

desiPM
Oct 16, 2012, 02:34 PM
Parentally Microsoft put all there efforts to make the click sound really crisp and crunch so thats all you pay for!!;)

MH01
Oct 16, 2012, 02:35 PM
M$ steps on itself once again. Pricing offers no one but the hardest corest M$ fans (are there any left?) a reason to buy. It can't compete with either Android or iOS at this price point. Enterprise already hates Windows 8 and loves iOS. Consumers have long felt trapped by Windows until iOS presented them a post PC option. Anti-Apple folks adopted Android. Who's left to buy Surface?

Your kiddin yourself if you think iOS freed everyone. OS X was a fine alternative. iOS devices consume content, how exactly do you believe it's created ?!? The post pc era is about as realistic and close to being achieved as a global environmental policy....

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 02:37 PM
You leave out a couple of important facts. First, the tablet market is still growing by leaps and bounds, while the PC market is stagnant. Microsoft may not have been in the initial wave, but then neither was Google.

Yes, but you make my point for me. Google had something compelling to offer that other search engines were not. Google is also innovative, M$ is mostly "me too" for over a decade. Google is also a "free" service, where consumers can go elsewhere without abandoning purchased product. Consumers have to abandon their purchased library to go Surface.

Two years isn't anything. MS does have a difficult battle ahead of it, but hardly an insurmountable one. Just look at the console industry.

True, but under that scenario gaining marketshare isn't in M$'s hands. Apple would really have to rest on its laurels like Nintendo and Sony did for it to succeed. That's possible, absolutely, but unlikely in the next couple of years, so Surface Tab will wither on the vine.

Also game console market traditionally reset every 6-8 years when the next gen model comes out giving consumers an exit because their old games won't get the latest features or resolution. During that time marketshare is typically locked in. But new tablets come out each year with no exit strategy for consumers because active devs update, and usually for no additional fee to the consumer.

adildacoolset
Oct 16, 2012, 02:37 PM
I hope Apple got the message with the iPad mini.

Same here, but then again I don't care about small tablets. I like them big because I'm a big boy now at 16 :D

But seriously, I don't like small tablets, and the iPad mini is no exception.

tbrinkma
Oct 16, 2012, 02:38 PM
Mostly true except enterprise loves windows 7 not os anything

The enterprise loves Win 7 for the desktop, sure. But they seem to love iOS (and to a lesser extent Android 4+) on mobile devices. There hasn't been any enterprise love for Microsoft's OSs on mobile devices since before WinMo 6. The shine wore off back when it was called WinCE, and no amount of buffing on Microsoft's part has been able to get it back since.

blahblah100
Oct 16, 2012, 02:43 PM
Wow, Apple sure stole the tablet thunder today.

I would have also expected the RT version of the Surface to be more competitively priced. $500 seems like a high cost of entry for an unproven product with a limited app ecosystem.

Maybe it will force Microsoft to lower the price in 3 months and give early adopters a $100 Microsoft store credit - after the early adopters whine like children.

kevinfulton.ca
Oct 16, 2012, 02:43 PM
Two years isn't anything. MS does have a difficult battle ahead of it, but hardly an insurmountable one. Just look at the console industry. They were going against Nintendo and Sony. Both companies who had incredibly popular products that were nearly household names out for far, far longer than two years. And now? MS currently has the best selling console this generation, and looks to continue that lead well into the next.

Though to play devils advocate, the Xbox offered a stable, steady, and well supported online gaming service, something the PS2 and Gamecube didn't have at the time. Plus they had Halo, a nice killer app to help draw attention to the platform. The Surface? Right now, it doesn't offer much over the iPad and various Android tablets besides Office, which will only take it so far.

You're comparing the gaming console market (a dying market BTW) from 10 years ago to todays computer hardware industry? Back then you could count the XBOX's competitors on one hand. Not the same as tablet choices. I don't think you realize how much faster technology evolves compared to back then. Make no mistake 2 years is a VERY long time in the tech industry. It may not kill the Surface from having some success, but it could make for a much slower adoption rate.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 02:44 PM
Your kiddin yourself if you think iOS freed everyone. OS X was a fine alternative. iOS devices consume content, how exactly do you believe it's created ?!? The post pc era is about as realistic and close to being achieved as a global environmental policy....

You are kidding yourself if you think a vast majority of consumers use their laptop and desktops mostly to create content. They get their email, store photos, surf the web. The only content created is their schedule, emails, YouTube videos and school term papers. Take a look at PC sales. They've been plummeting for the past couple of years. Coincidence? I think not.

adildacoolset
Oct 16, 2012, 02:45 PM
This is a really nice advert. Looks like Microsoft has the right idea, unlike Samsung.

larrybeo
Oct 16, 2012, 02:46 PM
Wow I am impressed that Microsoft seems destined to outdo itself in the failures column. How much expendable income do these guys have that they can continue to do this? I am very dissappointed as I was going to buy an RT model if it were $199. I guess I will give my money to the Google Nexus. Or Galaxy Tab. Or I suppose I should see what price the iPad Mini is going to be, but given the lack of competitiveness in the tablet market, I don't see the iPad mini being under $300 either. Sigh. Why are these things so damn expensive? Seriously?!?! You can get a Tegra 2 Android tablet for $150 now... why is the surface so expensive?!?

Garrod
Oct 16, 2012, 02:48 PM
Great ad - doesn't show what it does. What it does do it make it look like some sort of expensive Lego.

brosemann
Oct 16, 2012, 02:49 PM
Sadly not 199$ but still good pricing for a presumably nice tablet.

tbrinkma
Oct 16, 2012, 02:50 PM
Apple introduced iPad at the exact same price.

If you recall, all the analysts were predicting *starting* prices from $800 - $1100. The iPad blew those expectations out of the water, and forced several prospective competitors to restart the designs, by starting at $500.

At the time, it was also "unproven." People mocked the name and questioned whether there was a purpose for this kind of device. There were also a very limited amount of iPad-native apps (I do not count pixel-doubled iPhone apps).

There were, at release of the first iPad, more iPad-native apps than there appear to be for Surface. It *also* had access to a thriving ecosystem of apps (those pixel-doubled iPhone apps). The experience through the iPhone apps wasn't anything special, but it could still 'get the job done' while you waited for the the iPad version.

That's a fall-back option the Surface doesn't seem to have.

The entry price for the current model iPad remains $500. The iPad was and continues to be a hit.

No argument there. :D

The biggest thing MS has to do to get into the game is battle the notion that the only tablet worth buying is the iPad, which seems to be consumer sentiment. Microsoft has begun doing this with some decent-looking commercials as well as touting the Surface-exclusive features such as the admittedly slick cover/keyboard.

I'll admit the keyboard/cover seems like a slick idea. I expect that, if the execution stacks up, we'll see third-party accessories similar to it made for the iPad. That said, execution on the mini keyboards on the market so far has been pretty lacking, so I'm not buying into the hype without seeing it for myself.

deannnnn
Oct 16, 2012, 02:55 PM
I'm really interested to try one of these out. I doubt I'll buy one as I'm not really a tablet guy (prefer a full computer experience and an iPhone for mobile), but any new innovation is a win in my book (Apple or otherwise).

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 03:03 PM
True, but under that scenario gaining marketshare isn't in M$'s hands. Apple would really have to rest on its laurels like Nintendo and Sony did for it to succeed. That's possible, absolutely, but unlikely in the next couple of years, so Surface Tab will wither on the vine.

Apple continuing to play the game doesn't assure the Surface's failure. Even with them going whole hog, updating the iDevices with absolute must-have features, and trying their best to maintain their lead, MS can still at least carve a nice chunk of the market out for itself. They'll just have to try that much harder to do it.

MS does have enough money in the bank to play the long game. Victory is hardly an assured thing for them, but neither is failure.

One thing is for sure here. Even with the Surface currently being a little underwhelming (specially for the price), having MS officially in the scene will eventually make things interesting for everybody. Sure, MS has to work its ass off to gain a name for itself in the tablet space, but now everyone else has to do the same to gain or maintain what they have.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 03:04 PM
Yep. Like MS Phone 7 and the Zune and the Kin. They never were innovators, they just have always had a lot of money (made from copying others) which allowed them to do an even better job of copying still others (or acquiring them).

Don't look to MS for anything except a future business school case study.

The iPhone wasn't exactly an original or innovative product either. It was just much more polished and well put together. Heck, it was even missing a ton of features other existing smartphones had. If you want to come up with a reason MS can't succeed in tablets, you'll need to find another one.

jonnysods
Oct 16, 2012, 03:04 PM
It's fun and a little different for MS. I'm happy for them to bring something that seems decent.

iWe
Oct 16, 2012, 03:09 PM
The ad makes the Surface come off as something squarely aimed at Glee fans.

ipedro
Oct 16, 2012, 03:10 PM
Those clicks are familiar...

Oh right. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpwxG-VWONY)

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 03:12 PM
It's a lot more interesting than the commercials Apple has been putting out here recently.

----------

Those clicks are familiar...

Apple does have a patent on onomatopoeia. CLICK! OOPS! JUST GOT SUED FOR A BILLION!

Anti-Lucifer
Oct 16, 2012, 03:18 PM
This thing is just doomed.

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy this?
--> 0

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy an iPad mini?
---> 3

gotluck
Oct 16, 2012, 03:18 PM
IMO it's the Surface with Windows 8 Pro (3rd gen Intel core i5 , 4gb ram, intel 4000 graphics) that can really change the tablet space. Unfortunately, based on the pricing for the RT - Pro will be expensive :(.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 03:22 PM
Yes, but you make my point for me. Google had something compelling to offer that other search engines were not. Google is also innovative, M$ is mostly "me too" for over a decade. Google is also a "free" service, where consumers can go elsewhere without abandoning purchased product. Consumers have to abandon their purchased library to go Surface.

My reference to Google was with respect to Android. They have certainly made an impact on the tablet market without having been the first mover in that market. As a consequence the tablet market is quite fluid and this situation provides an opportunity for other players to enter. Unlike some of the others who tried and failed, Microsoft has the ability to be very sticky, and they bring weapons to the table that the others did not. The Surface does not appear to be one of Microsoft's "me too" products. It may, or may not, succeed in leveraging off Windows and their equally powerful Office franchise, but for sure one thing Microsoft does know how to do is leverage. I have no idea whether this strategy will work for them but I certainly would not assume that it will fail.

VenusianSky
Oct 16, 2012, 03:26 PM
Wow, Apple sure stole the tablet thunder today.

I would have also expected the RT version of the Surface to be more competitively priced. $500 seems like a high cost of entry for an unproven product with a limited app ecosystem.

The same could have been said for the iPad 16 GB when it was announced.

EDIT: Nevermind. I see someone already pointed this out.

The biggest thing MS has to do to get into the game is battle the notion that the only tablet worth buying is the iPad, which seems to be consumer sentiment. Microsoft has begun doing this with some decent-looking commercials as well as touting the Surface-exclusive features such as the admittedly slick cover/keyboard.

I would have to believe that at least one exec at Apple has said "why didn't we come up with that" regarding the keyboard cover. I know... Steve Jobs probably wouldn't have approved of it anyways.

roadbloc
Oct 16, 2012, 03:31 PM
Well... I'll be getting one because I prefer Windows 8 over iOS. And you get more for your money than you do with an iPad.

VenusianSky
Oct 16, 2012, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't be so certain that an x86 Surface will be much more than a ARM version. It comes down to whether Microsoft will want to charge more for the x86 version of Windows 8 and/or if an ARM processor is actually cheaper than an x86 processor. I actually don't think Microsoft will care about the price of the operating system. I think it will come down to the cost of the processor. I have no idea which processor costs more for Microsoft.

gotluck
Oct 16, 2012, 03:43 PM
I wouldn't be so certain that an x86 Surface will be much more than a ARM version. It comes down to whether Microsoft will want to charge more for the x86 version of Windows 8 and/or if an ARM processor is actually cheaper than an x86 processor. I actually don't think Microsoft will care about the price of the operating system. I think it will come down to the cost of the processor. I have no idea which processor costs more for Microsoft.

I hope so because x86 on a tablet for a reasonable price would interest me. Flash is back :p and many other things of course.. way more flexibility

Apple...
Oct 16, 2012, 03:46 PM
What a stupid commercial...

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 03:50 PM
My reference to Google was with respect to Android. They have certainly made an impact on the tablet market without having been the first mover in that market. As a consequence the tablet market is quite fluid and this situation provides an opportunity for other players to enter. Unlike some of the others who tried and failed, Microsoft has the ability to be very sticky, and they bring weapons to the table that the others did not. The Surface does not appear to be one of Microsoft's "me too" products. It may, or may not, succeed in leveraging off Windows and their equally powerful Office franchise, but for sure one thing Microsoft does know how to do is leverage. I have no idea whether this strategy will work for them but I certainly would not assume that it will fail.

Nexus 7/Kindle Fire market is mostly on price + decent library of apps. Surface has neither, and if the iPad mini is competitively priced with the Android 7s, again I don't see where Surface fits. You haven't shown me why Surface is going to catch fire, and who is going to buy it to get it to 30+% marketshare.

Also I didn't say the Surface is "me too." Go back and read my previous posts. I said M$ has be "me too" for the past decade plus, not surface specifically. Surface does differentiate itself from Android and iOS. It's GUI is not "me too," but it's features are still on par with Android and iOS and that's not good enough to gain sway with consumers or enterprise already implementing iOS with their field iPad and iPhones or Android devices and their custom apps.

aerok
Oct 16, 2012, 03:52 PM
This thing is just doomed.

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy this?
--> 0

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy an iPad mini?
---> 3

Because your sample of 3 people is enough to judge the popularity of a product... :rolleyes:

Oh oh oh I know four people that are not going to buy the iPad mini, it must be doomed.

Lancer
Oct 16, 2012, 03:52 PM
I'm just waiting for the parody some comedy show is likely to do, see how many of them break LOL

The price does seam high but on the upside I'm sure Apple will come out with something better next week to compete, I'm sure we'll see a new 'full size' iPad next week.

Chupa Chupa
Oct 16, 2012, 03:53 PM
The same could have been said for the iPad 16 GB when it was announced.


Not really. iOS was already maturing at that point and had a good stable of developers.

k995
Oct 16, 2012, 03:54 PM
If you recall, all the analysts were predicting *starting* prices from - The iPad blew those expectations out of the water, and forced several prospective competitors to restart the designs, by starting at

Inflation and its actually cheaper .


There were, at release of the first iPad, more iPad-native apps than there appear to be for Surface. It *also* had access to a thriving ecosystem of apps (those pixel-doubled iPhone apps). The experience through the iPhone apps wasn't anything special, but it could still 'get the job done' while you waited for the the iPad version.

That's a fall-back option the Surface doesn't seem to have.
Surface has it desktop "cousin" wich is also capable of metro apps.

350million PC sales worldwide a year, 80% MS (conservative estimate) windows 8 so within the year it would have more user then ios has now, and if I include the unlicensed its a lot faster that high.

mojothemonkey
Oct 16, 2012, 03:55 PM
Nexus 7/Kindle Fire market is mostly on price + decent library of apps. Surface has neither, and if the iPad mini is competitively priced with the Android 7s, again I don't see where Surface fits. You haven't shown me why Surface is going to catch fire, and who is going to buy it.

Also I didn't say the Surface is "me too." Go back and read my previous posts. I said M$ has be "me too" for the past decade plus, not surface specifically. Surface does differentiate itself from Android and iOS. It's GUI is not "me too," but it's features are still on par with Android and iOS and that's not good enough to gain sway with consumers or enterprise already implementing iOS with their field iPad and iPhones or Android devices and their custom apps.

Business. I'm in a profession where I need regular access to a calendar that my office manages and my secretary updates all the time. Lots of emails. Need to access and edit documents - REALLY edit, not just tap-type in words or click 20 times to change a formatting setting.

I am a long time dual user (ipod/ipad and Android) and find neither to acceptable for serious business use. Sure you can get this app to do this, and another to do that, but they're all novelties and stuff that works in a pinch. It doesnt cut it for serious "this is my job" use.

I need to see my outlook emails/calendar/tasking and work documents the same way my colleagues and secretary is seeing them.

If I can get remote access to my work's file system on this so I can directly access my case files, it's over. I will get this without blinking.

I'll be waiting in the wings to see what level of enterprise integration they are really rolling out here.

KPOM
Oct 16, 2012, 03:56 PM
I'm sure Microsoft follows the Apple rumor mill well enough to know that the iPad mini release is very close, so the timing of this announcement was not unfortunate, nor was it a blunder. It was a deliberate effort to avoid being buried, as they might well have been had they'd waited until next week. At this point, Apple hasn't actually announced anything more than a media event, whereas Microsoft actually (and finally) pegged the price and shipping date for the Surface.

However, the Surface announcement probably didn't have its intended effect. Apple's stock jumped when the Surface pricing came out, and then rose again when the media invitations came out. I think the Street thinks that the Surface pricing will cost them sales in the short run.

That said, I think the Surface pricing makes sense. It is slightly lower than the iPad when you consider the bigger storage and included Office (though lower resolution screen), but it is not in cheap Android territory. I can see enterprises getting this. I can also see some consumers seeing this as a good middle ground between Apple and Android.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 03:57 PM
This thing is just doomed.

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy this?
--> 0

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy an iPad mini?
---> 3

Really? I saw a guy up in News Discussion a couple weeks back talking about how the iPad Mini was doomed because he didn't want one, or know anyone who did.

...I don't know what's going on anymore. I'm so confused by these scientific statistics you people keep throwing around. :(

KPOM
Oct 16, 2012, 04:00 PM
Inflation and its actually cheaper .


Surface has it desktop "cousin" wich is also capable of metro apps.

350million PC sales worldwide a year, 80% MS (conservative estimate) windows 8 so within the year it would have more user then ios has now, and if I include the unlicensed its a lot faster that high.

However, the abundance of apps hasn't helped Android tablet sales. Quality means as much as quantity. The Surface has Office in its favor (though oddly, only the Home and Student edition), but for now it lacks lots of other apps.

If they got Outlook and Office right, though, this could be a serious "laptop replacement" for the average exec or even middle-level manager. The iPad is still a little too difficult to use as a sole laptop replacement, given that it lacks a true filesystem for document management. Editing e-mail attachments on the fly is more difficult on the iPad than it should be. That's where the Surface could be compelling.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 04:08 PM
Nexus 7/Kindle Fire market is mostly on price + decent library of apps. Surface has neither, and if the iPad mini is competitively priced with the Android 7s, again I don't see where Surface fits. You haven't shown me why Surface is going to catch fire, and who is going to buy it to get it to 30+% marketshare.

Also I didn't say the Surface is "me too." Go back and read my previous posts. I said M$ has be "me too" for the past decade plus, not surface specifically. Surface does differentiate itself from Android and iOS. It's GUI is not "me too," but it's features are still on par with Android and iOS and that's not good enough to gain sway with consumers or enterprise already implementing iOS with their field iPad and iPhones or Android devices and their custom apps.

I never said it was going "catch fire," or anything of the kind, and I certainly never assigned it any market share percentage. What I did do is explain specifically why I thought it wasn't necessarily DOA, as you are so certain it is. It seems you aren't prepared to respond to what I actually said, so it's a little late for you to tell me reread any your posts.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 04:11 PM
The iPhone wasn't exactly an original or innovative product either. It was just much more polished and well put together. Heck, it was even missing a ton of features other existing smartphones had. If you want to come up with a reason MS can't succeed in tablets, you'll need to find another one.

Red herring. A logical fallacy.

Your argument is that Apple did something which you say is the same. Fine, I'm not arguing that point about whether Apple committed the same crimes.

BTW, you just argued my point, which is that M$**t is crap at what they do and never innovate. Thanks for proving my point, I win. :p

Cujo72
Oct 16, 2012, 04:17 PM
If I can get on SAP with it, then I want one.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
However, the Surface announcement probably didn't have its intended effect. Apple's stock jumped when the Surface pricing came out, and then rose again when the media invitations came out. I think the Street thinks that the Surface pricing will cost them sales in the short run.

That said, I think the Surface pricing makes sense. It is slightly lower than the iPad when you consider the bigger storage and included Office (though lower resolution screen), but it is not in cheap Android territory. I can see enterprises getting this. I can also see some consumers seeing this as a good middle ground between Apple and Android.

Trying to connect momentary stock price movements to a non-event such as this is a short route to madness. Certainly Microsoft didn't time the announcement to move AAPL one way or another. That doesn't do them any good.

Microsoft always has a market they can exploit. The question is always whether they've figured out how.

FoxMcCloud
Oct 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
Can't wait. Should be awesome. The fact it has a USB port and Micro SD is icing on the cake. It's also got a high quality screen and chassis and built in 32gb storage at base model. Yet people scoff at the price. Strange.

Considering Win8 ain't even out yet, it's app list is growing. And it's ability to sync everything with your MS account is great. Which means when I log in to it for the first time, it will match my desktop (apps, accounts, colour scheme, layout, preferences, wifi...etc).

People should be open minded , see what happens. Everyone said the iPad would fail as it had no apps and was expensive. Look where it is now. The price will come down in time.

And to those who want a Pro with Core i5 and 4gb ram, 64gb ssd etc. try and find an equivalent device for the strange price you quote of 600 dollars! Best I can do is around that for a cheap ass plastic TN panel piece of garbage. You're looking at Ultrabook or MBa territory here, all in a tablet for factor with the high quality goods. And yet you think it's gonna be price like your average run if the mill cheap laptop? Get real.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
This thing is just doomed.

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy this?
--> 0

DO you know how many people I know who is waiting to buy an iPad mini?
---> 3

Wow, such in depth market research. Every company in the world should hire you to review your friends desires on what they should and should not bring to market. Then nobody will ever fail! :rolleyes:

Red herring. A logical fallacy.

Your argument is that Apple did something which you say is the same. Fine, I'm not arguing that point about whether Apple committed the same crimes.

BTW, you just argued my point, which is that M$**t is crap at what they do and never innovate. Thanks for proving my point, I win. :p

Not a red herring, I didn't say anybody copied anything. I simply pointed out that it doesn't take innovation to have a wildly successful product.

Didn't prove your point either. MS has had tons of innovation over the life of their company. In fact the Touch Cover is an example of recent MS innovation.

wovel
Oct 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
Wrong, MS is rolling out support for Surface in SCCM. Can't manage iOS devices with SCCM.

Our company is already planning to buy some to pilot test. I have to co-workers, one a former iOS guy migrated to Android and another a former BB buy recently migrated to Android, chomping at the bit to buy a Surface.

Of course, we just made a VERY public purchase of a lot of iPads already. :D

Just saying, don't count MS out and I think a lot of your presumptions are incorrect.


Any organization that would consider managing tablets with SCCM is already managing iPads, probably with ICU. MS is late to the party. They gave up that edge.

KPOM
Oct 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
Trying to connect momentary stock price movements to a non-event such as this is a short route to madness. Certainly Microsoft didn't time the announcement to move AAPL one way or another. That doesn't do them any good.

Microsoft always has a market they can exploit. The question is always whether they've figured out how.

I'm sure Apple and Microsoft don't evaluate their product releases and press announcements based on daily stock market activity. My point, though, is that the Surface announcement got lost in the excitement of what is essentially Apple's confirmation of the iPad Mini. I'm guessing it is also no accident that Apple is releasing the iPad Mini 3 days before Windows 8 and the Surface are released. It will generate excitement that may overshadow Microsoft's big product release.

cecildk9999
Oct 16, 2012, 04:33 PM
That was the most wonderful commercial that told me absolutely nothing else about the product other than it having a kickstand and an attachable keyboard. It made my day, but I'm still more excited about Apple's event next week. :eek:

wovel
Oct 16, 2012, 04:35 PM
If you recall, all the analysts were predicting *starting* prices from $800 - $1100. The iPad blew those expectations out of the water, and forced several prospective competitors to restart the designs, by starting at $500.



There were, at release of the first iPad, more iPad-native apps than there appear to be for Surface. It *also* had access to a thriving ecosystem of apps (those pixel-doubled iPhone apps). The experience through the iPhone apps wasn't anything special, but it could still 'get the job done' while you waited for the the iPad version.

That's a fall-back option the Surface doesn't seem to have.



No argument there. :D



I'll admit the keyboard/cover seems like a slick idea. I expect that, if the execution stacks up, we'll see third-party accessories similar to it made for the iPad. That said, execution on the mini keyboards on the market so far has been pretty lacking, so I'm not buying into the hype without seeing it for myself.

There have been keyboard covers for the iPad for years.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 04:41 PM
There have been keyboard covers for the iPad for years.

You mean the clamshells? That's not quite the same.

mdelvecchio
Oct 16, 2012, 04:41 PM
My guess is that some enterprise managers and developers with a bunch of C# business and Office related applications to port to a touch UI will feel more confident buying these at roughly price parity. Their actual users might still prefer iPads, but, except for BYOD situations, it's not their money.

yep. hate to say it... thats what i do, enterprise .NET apps for large orgs. my current client (major oil) has already expressed interest since they are a MS shop.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 04:42 PM
I'm sure Apple and Microsoft don't evaluate their product releases and press announcements based on daily stock market activity. My point, though, is that the Surface announcement got lost in the excitement of what is essentially Apple's confirmation of the iPad Mini. I'm guessing it is also no accident that Apple is releasing the iPad Mini 3 days before Windows 8 and the Surface are released. It will generate excitement that may overshadow Microsoft's big product release.

Absolutely, it's a constant battle for media bandwidth, but what I'm saying is this was Microsoft's best opportunity to get their message heard. Next week would be even worse. The article was trying to make it out as some sort of mistake, and others here as a blunder. I mean, Microsoft is going to make their own kind of noise in the days before their own big rollout and try to upstage Apple. That doesn't make Apple's selected announcement date "unfortunate."

laserfox
Oct 16, 2012, 04:44 PM
That was the most wonderful commercial that told me absolutely nothing else about the product other than it having a kickstand and an attachable keyboard. It made my day, but I'm still more excited about Apple's event next week. :eek:

You know apple commercials tend to focus on one aspect of the iPhone. Like their ridiculous 4inch is common sense ad.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 04:47 PM
Any organization that would consider managing tablets with SCCM is already managing iPads, probably with ICU. MS is late to the party. They gave up that edge.

Are you seriously comparing ICU to SCCM?

Speaking as someone that works in a Fortune 200 company that is considering rolling out Surface devices and managing them via SCCM, we do not use the ICU because (up until recently) iPhones and iPads are strictly BYOD and only connect via EAS.

We have recently rolled out iPads for a specific need in the company, but we're using a real MDM to manage them, not ICU.

mojothemonkey
Oct 16, 2012, 04:48 PM
Red herring. A logical fallacy.

Your argument is that Apple did something which you say is the same. Fine, I'm not arguing that point about whether Apple committed the same crimes.


I think you jumped the gun on pulling out the old elementary formal logic.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 04:49 PM
yep. hate to say it... thats what i do, enterprise .NET apps for large orgs. my current client (major oil) has already expressed interest since they are a MS shop.

Major airline here. I'm not a .NET dev, I'm an Exchange admin, but our org is also an MS shop looking hard at the Surface.

MartiNZ
Oct 16, 2012, 04:49 PM
This is a really nice advert. Looks like Microsoft has the right idea, unlike Samsung.

Yep not insulting potential customers is a pretty original move in this market :D.

Very cool ad, would be so cool if that all actually happened. For me it's going to be a race as to which makes it to NZ first, iPad mini or surface RT.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 04:51 PM
I'm sure Apple and Microsoft don't evaluate their product releases and press announcements based on daily stock market activity. My point, though, is that the Surface announcement got lost in the excitement of what is essentially Apple's confirmation of the iPad Mini. I'm guessing it is also no accident that Apple is releasing the iPad Mini 3 days before Windows 8 and the Surface are released. It will generate excitement that may overshadow Microsoft's big product release.

Perhaps on this forum, but that's not what my co-workers were discussing today.

k995
Oct 16, 2012, 04:54 PM
However, the abundance of apps hasn't helped Android tablet sales.
It hasnt? 30-40% in a year isnt too bad I would say.

And you cant use it both ways, either apps help or they dont .



Quality means as much as quantity.
Metro apps quality is fine .



The Surface has Office in its favor (though oddly, only the Home and Student edition), but for now it lacks lots of other apps.
Well it hasnt been released yet, but MS is pushing development and lets face it most people dont use hundreds of apps they use a few if those are present quickly, the 500 000 other apps barely matter .



If they got Outlook and Office right, though, this could be a serious "laptop replacement" for the average exec or even middle-level manager. The iPad is still a little too difficult to use as a sole laptop replacement, given that it lacks a true filesystem for document management. Editing e-mail attachments on the fly is more difficult on the iPad than it should be. That's where the Surface could be compelling.

Not just that but a smooth transition between desktop/laptop and tablet, now a tablet feels more like a seperate piece, better integration between the 2 could be key.

JAT
Oct 16, 2012, 04:56 PM
Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market. Android the other 40%. People have $100s and more invested in iOS and Android apps. Not to mention time spent learning and getting comfortable with those OSes. People are not going to be so quick to switch without a compelling reason, and Surface offers none. It's not bad, it's just too late.
I would say that MS has undercut Apple by $100, a safe amount, but noticeable. They have also made enough space to drop the price, although they don't often do this. Good placement vs the leader. I'd say they are ignoring Android completely with this pricing. It's actually pretty obvious. And downright MS-like. (or Apple-like, if you prefer)

Also, see single word below. I think there are many chomping at the bit to have a real access to Office docs on a tablet. We'll see.
You leave out a couple of important facts. First, the tablet market is still growing by leaps and bounds, while the PC market is stagnant. Microsoft may not have been in the initial wave, but then neither was Google. It is not a settled market. Second, if Microsoft's Windows 8 strategy works (remains to be seen), the market for Surface apps will be legitimate. In fact the availability of Office alone will be enough for some people to consider a Surface.

Nitrocide
Oct 16, 2012, 04:56 PM
That stock children laughing soundbyte at the end! I've been listening out for it in adverts for well over a decade! Its like Willhelms secret cousin!

wallpaper01
Oct 16, 2012, 04:57 PM
I know this is a Mac forum but I thought that people would be happy with the price?

Double the storage and RAM of the iPad and the ability to ACTUALLY multitask for the same price as the iPad 16gb...

Seems like a bargain if you ask me! If Windows RT is anything like Windows Phone 7.5 it will be as slick as hell. Windows Phone software blows iOS out of the water in terms of running on low power devices with fluidity.

Its not Microsoft's fault there are no apps yet, you got to start somewhere...

I know iPad has retina but I had iPad 1 and 3, and yes I noticed a difference but it made no diffidence at all to how I used it.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 05:01 PM
Two years old is a lifetime. Apple has 60% of the tablet market.

Didn't stop Apple from entering the Smartphone market and being successful.

----------

I would say that MS has undercut Apple by $100, a safe amount, but noticeable. They have also made enough space to drop the price, although they don't often do this. Good placement vs the leader. I'd say they are ignoring Android completely with this pricing. It's actually pretty obvious. And downright MS-like. (or Apple-like, if you prefer)

Also, see single word below. I think there are many chomping at the bit to have a real access to Office docs on a tablet. We'll see.

Oddly enough, my co-worker is chomping at the bit for a tablet that will run the full Photoshop install. I told him I doubt the RT version will, but perhaps the Pro when it's released.

I think many people have key apps in mind that they would love to have on a tablet, but they just don't get when using the iPad. Office would be good for me, but it's rare when I need it away from work. Lightroom might be a good one, but I don't think I want to use it on a small screen. I already hate using it on my 13" laptop.

babyj
Oct 16, 2012, 05:02 PM
I switched to Apple about 7 years ago as their products were the easiest to use and all integrated and worked well with each other. Not sure the same is true today and Microsoft is starting to look like a very attractive option again.

I've held back from upgrading to the iPhone 5 and iPad 3 to see what Apple come up with and so far it's not a lot. The new dock connector is a pain (more expense to replace everything), the new map app a disaster, the iOS and OS X interfaces are dated.

Apple have got away with a lot of stuff as they didn't have any real competition. That's no longer true and unless they up the ante I'll be switching back to Microsoft in the New Year. The Surface pricing looks fine to me and having a phone, tablet and laptop running pretty much the same OS is very appealing.

KPOM
Oct 16, 2012, 05:10 PM
It hasnt? 30-40% in a year isnt too bad I would say.

And you cant use it both ways, either apps help or they dont .


It's more like 2 years. Given that Android is 68% of the smartphone market compared to iPhone's 17% or so, the disparity in market share between the iPad and Android tablets is astounding. Plus, consider that half of "Android's" tablet market share is the Kindle Fire, which doesn't even have access to Google Play, and is really a different platform altogether.


Metro apps quality is fine .

Well it hasnt been released yet, but MS is pushing development and lets face it most people dont use hundreds of apps they use a few if those are present quickly, the 500 000 other apps barely matter .


Not just that but a smooth transition between desktop/laptop and tablet, now a tablet feels more like a seperate piece, better integration between the 2 could be key.

I agree Metro app quality is there. That's why Microsoft is following the Apple approach, rather than Google's approach (or even the Windows Desktop approach) with the Windows Store.

Surface could be very compelling. I actually think the pricing is OK. Ballmer said as much a few months ago when he said that $300-$800 is the sweet spot. The most common Surface units will fall in the middle to top half of that range.

What wouldn't surprise me is if all 3 platforms co-exist (4 if you count Kindle Fire separately as I do). Kindle Fire and the iPad Mini may dominate the lower end. iPad and Surface will share the mid-range and high end. Pure Android will likely tend toward the lower end but will be present in the mid-range as well.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 05:13 PM
One thing is for certain: However many they sell, virtually every Surface Microsoft moves will take a bite out of one of the Windows OEMs. If the Surface is successful, I can see it driving the Windows OEMs further into the arms of Google.

jaw04005
Oct 16, 2012, 05:13 PM
Didn't stop Apple from entering the Smartphone market and being successful.

Except there was nothing like the iPhone available in the smartphone market at the time. The Surface is just an iPad clone at this point. The only thing interesting about the Surface is the Metro interface and maybe the keyboard smart cover.

I really like the concept of Windows Phone. The idea that your phone would present information and update that information live on the home screen seems futuristic to me. However, the apps on Windows Phone are just not as good as iOS. I have a feeling it'll be the same with Windows RT.

I'm going to wait to see how the Windows RT App Store works out before I invest my money in a Surface or Windows RT device.

urbanlung
Oct 16, 2012, 05:14 PM
Apple introduced iPad at the exact same price. At the time, it was also "unproven." People mocked the name and questioned whether there was a purpose for this kind of device. There were also a very limited amount of iPad-native apps (I do not count pixel-doubled iPhone apps).

The entry price for the current model iPad remains $500. The iPad was and continues to be a hit.

The biggest thing MS has to do to get into the game is battle the notion that the only tablet worth buying is the iPad, which seems to be consumer sentiment. Microsoft has begun doing this with some decent-looking commercials as well as touting the Surface-exclusive features such as the admittedly slick cover/keyboard.

That there were few native apps is not as relevant as the fact that millions of people were intimately familiar with the iPad's little brother, the iPhone. As a mechanism to sell a new class of product such as a tablet I doubt anyone could beat saturating a necessity market (mobile phone) with a near clone, as a means of invading mindshare. Once people were hooked on their iPhones, buying an iPad was a no brainer. Unfortunately for MS they have to build the market from near zero with regards to a touch based OS. I do not know if Apple were lucky in the way things turned out, but in hindsight the evolution of a market from iPod + music to iPhone to iPad looks like a stunningly brilliant strategy.

tito2020
Oct 16, 2012, 05:28 PM
Say bye bye to the pc

mdelvecchio
Oct 16, 2012, 05:30 PM
I switched to Apple about 7 years ago as their products were the easiest to use and all integrated and worked well with each other. Not sure the same is true today and Microsoft is starting to look like a very attractive option again.

I've held back from upgrading to the iPhone 5 and iPad 3 to see what Apple come up with and so far it's not a lot. The new dock connector is a pain (more expense to replace everything), the new map app a disaster, the iOS and OS X interfaces are dated.

how strange. i switched my dev platform and household to Apple as well, once intel chips made MS dev possible on apple hardware, and still find them to the easiest to use, integrate, and work well w/ each other. i love the new dock connector, the Maps, and find OS X to still be delightful. far more than i enjoy Windows itself. if my experiences are any indicator i have far fewer OS & networking problems than my pure-Windows friends and family.


Apple have got away with a lot of stuff as they didn't have any real competition. That's no longer true

WHAT! are you serious? they climbed a mountain of competitors just to get where they are today. now the competitors are climbing the mountain to get to apple, and there have been many causalities thus far.

having a phone, tablet and laptop running pretty much the same OS is very appealing.

but they arent the same OS, nor can they run the same software.

words matter.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 05:36 PM
but they arent the same OS, nor can they run the same software.

words matter.

Yeah, they are, and they can. As of WP8, all versions of Windows run the same kernel, and use the same programming languages.

Only x86 devices are a little different (as in PCs, laptops, and the Surface Pro), as they're capable of running legacy apps, as well as higher end ones targeted at the desktop alongside the new Metro apps.

Geckotek
Oct 16, 2012, 05:49 PM
Except there was nothing like the iPhone available in the smartphone market at the time. The Surface is just an iPad clone at this point. The only thing interesting about the Surface is the Metro interface and maybe the keyboard smart cover.


If you are taking about the Surface RT....maybe. Surface Pro, definately not.

Aidan5806
Oct 16, 2012, 05:49 PM
If i didn't know any better, I wouldn't have even known what this ad was about, much less take anything away from it.

Carlanga
Oct 16, 2012, 05:51 PM
nice pricing M$, I guess is another tablet I could buy in a firesale!

babyj
Oct 16, 2012, 05:52 PM
how strange. i switched my dev platform and household to Apple as well, once intel chips made MS dev possible on apple hardware, and still find them to the easiest to use, integrate, and work well w/ each other.

It depends on what your workflow is. A big factor for me is the cloud and Microsoft (and Google) are way ahead of Apple. I've given up on iWork (which is useless for sharing and collaboration) and moved my main email to Google (as iCloud doesn't support external email accounts and the Mac Mail filtering is useless).


WHAT! are you serious? they climbed a mountain of competitors just to get where they are today. now the competitors are climbing the mountain to get to apple, and there have been many causalities thus far.

Sure they had competitors but there was no real competition for the iPhone and iPad when they were released - as they were so much better and advanced compared to competitors products. It's only more recently that the competition has had products that really can compete. As a result and with their runaway sales they've become a bit complacent and risk the competition sneaking ahead.


but they arent the same OS, nor can they run the same software.


Sure they're not the same OS but they're pretty close. I'm not an expert but I was under the impression apps can be compiled to be compatible with W8 and W8RT. Though whether they're the same OS under the hood isn't really relevant, the interface is pretty much the same which is all users care about.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 05:55 PM
Not a red herring, I didn't say anybody copied anything. I simply pointed out that it doesn't take innovation to have a wildly successful product.

Yes, it is. It was intended to distract from the argument I made, which is that M$**t copies, they don't innovate, and you pointed out that Apple doesn't either.

You must, if you wish to disprove my argument, first prove that I'm wrong by providing evidence that M$**t does in fact innovate and not copy, and that they are successful not from copying others and being late to the game, but because they didn't copy and in fact innovated all along the way.

You can't prove me wrong by proving another company is wrong as well, but which is successful. That is illogical, and what is called, a logical fallacy, in this case, distraction, otherwise known as a red herring.

In discussion and argument if you can't disprove my arguments, then I win the debate, it's that simple. And logical fallacies prove nothing, so my original point stands.

M$**t will not win with this because they are late and never innovate, they merely use their monopoly status and cash built on copy from day 1 (ever hear of CP/M?). They were a brilliant marketing company (were, not are); they are a monopoly gained but not earned, and they have a cancer that has been eating them for years, and they are slowly dying. I don't believe they will ever turn things around because they never had it to begin with, but that's my opinion and I'd be glad to discuss this further with others.

I think you jumped the gun on pulling out the old elementary formal logic.

Yeah, logic often times, especially on this forum, falls on deaf ears. Emotion and illogic in the minds of their users always win. :rolleyes:

LOLZpersonok
Oct 16, 2012, 06:01 PM
I don't care what anyone says. I want one. And I'm gonna get one :D

Already have an iPad.

Navdakilla
Oct 16, 2012, 06:03 PM
I am really interested in this product. The live tiles idea seems really neat to me. I was hoping for something cheaper to actually have a shot at competing with the ipad. At the end of the day, this will sell. Not apple numbers, but it'll still sell

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 06:03 PM
I don't care what anyone says. I want one. And I'm gonna get one :D

And with each new purchase comes free dancing ability and cool/popularity attribute (just like in Sims), so it says in the advertisement.

entatlrg
Oct 16, 2012, 06:09 PM
No 4g/LTE ... disappointing.

gatearray
Oct 16, 2012, 06:12 PM
Hearing those clicks, all I can think of is the little kickstand snapping off after a month of use.

Yep. For me, hearing those clicks, all I could think of was the commercial for the iPad 2 Smart Cover in 2011. :)

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 06:16 PM
Yeah, logic often times, especially on this forum, falls on deaf ears. Emotion and illogic in the minds of their users always win. :rolleyes:

Says the guy who goes on a heated rant about "M$**t" that has no basis in reality beyond the usual tired "but they copppiiieeedddd" spiel.

Yup. Logical. Reasoned. Balanced. That's you to a T.

Dr McKay
Oct 16, 2012, 06:23 PM
iOS is making huge headway into enterprise. Yes, enterprise love Win 7, but Surface is Win 8, which enterprise is wary of. Win 7 is likely to continue to be the default business computer OS for another decade, but Apple is capturing the post PC enterprise market.

The difference is with iOS, if a business want their software on a tablet and go for iPad, they will definitely have to re-write for iOS. If they choose to get Surface tablets, if it works on Windows 7, it'll work on Windows 8. Businesses would most likely go for the Professional versions of the tablet, running full Windows.

IJ Reilly
Oct 16, 2012, 06:24 PM
M$**t will not win with this because they are late and never innovate, they merely use their monopoly status and cash built on copy from day 1 (ever hear of CP/M?). They were a brilliant marketing company (were, not are); they are a monopoly gained but not earned, and they have a cancer that has been eating them for years, and they are slowly dying. I don't believe they will ever turn things around because they never had it to begin with, but that's my opinion and I'd be glad to discuss this further with others.

You get this sort of half right. Microsoft was never a brilliant marketing company. In fact they have rarely been even a middling marketing company. Seems whenever a company enjoys great success somebody is in a big hurry to attribute it all to "marketing," whatever that is.

The real story is far more complicated. An actual monopoly they never had, but by virtue of some amazing historical quirks of fate, they were gifted with huge leveraging opportunities, which they exploited to the max. They were brilliant at exploiting leveraging opportunities, and have struggled historically whenever they were without leveraging opportunities. The only reason why this is important for Surface is because they might just have some leveraging opportunities with this product, and this is something they do know how to do.

For quite a few years under the Ballmer regime the company has drifted, but I think it's fair to say we've seen some more definite direction from them recently. The last flavor of Windows was not terrible on its own merits and the next one will probably be incrementally better. They are plodding, but in a more productive direction. The Surface is a hail mary pass towards the next generation of computing devices, already in progress. They have enough leverage (again, their true forté) to have a fair chance of hitting the target. Which doesn't mean they will, but if nothing else Microsoft is dogged. They can afford to stick with this program and throw hundreds of billions at it, if need be, if they see this as being a big part of their future. You never want to count out Microsoft's determination or resources, ever.

Also, as I've said before, they are at the same time getting right into the faces of the Windows OEMs with this product. The potential significance of this is being overlooked. The more successful the product becomes, the more important this change in direction will be.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 06:24 PM
Says the guy who goes on a heated rant about "M$**t" that has no basis in reality beyond the usual tired "but they copppiiieeedddd" spiel.

Yup. Logical. Reasoned. Balanced. That's you to a T.

And that is called an ad hominem. When you have no desire (or ability?) to discuss or argue the points, attack the other person. Another logical fallacy. :mad:

ipedro
Oct 16, 2012, 06:29 PM
It's a lot more interesting than the commercials Apple has been putting out here recently.

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Apple does have a patent on onomatopoeia. CLICK! OOPS! JUST GOT SUED FOR A BILLION!

Not the sound but the way the Smart Cover snaps on magnetically was an Apple innovation. Prior to that, Microsoft would have bundled a keyboard that would have been attached, perhaps a slider or a reversible cover.

Nonetheless, I like that MS is following Apple's lead on good design. I haven't used or bought a Microsoft product in 10 years but I would buy a Surface or a Windows 8 phone if I were to become unhappy with the future of iOS and OSX.

nserp
Oct 16, 2012, 06:31 PM
I still don't get it. Why would I even want to attach a keyboard? So I can use it like a notebook? But I bought an iPad so I could use it on the bus, or lying on my back on the sofa etc. the last thing I want attached to it is a keyboard. So what else does it do, what makes it special? I have no idea, other than it clicks a lot. Oh, and you get a version of Office with it. Great. Now I'm excited. :rolleyes: In a strange way, I want this to succeed, because it will drive competition, and that will drive innovation, and that's good for everybody. But I have no idea why anyone would want to lay their cash down for a device that hasn't even been properly demoed, let alone a hands-on.

And Ballmer talking about dedicated devices for dedicated markets? How is this a dedicated device? It's fragmented already, and it's not even released never mind generation 2. I think it has turkey written all over it, and that's a bit of a shame.

Eidorian
Oct 16, 2012, 06:33 PM
Can't wait. Should be awesome. The fact it has a USB port and Micro SD is icing on the cake. It's also got a high quality screen and chassis and built in 32gb storage at base model. Yet people scoff at the price. Strange.

Considering Win8 ain't even out yet, it's app list is growing. And it's ability to sync everything with your MS account is great. Which means when I log in to it for the first time, it will match my desktop (apps, accounts, colour scheme, layout, preferences, wifi...etc).

People should be open minded , see what happens. Everyone said the iPad would fail as it had no apps and was expensive. Look where it is now. The price will come down in time.

And to those who want a Pro with Core i5 and 4gb ram, 64gb ssd etc. try and find an equivalent device for the strange price you quote of 600 dollars! Best I can do is around that for a cheap ass plastic TN panel piece of garbage. You're looking at Ultrabook or MBa territory here, all in a tablet for factor with the high quality goods. And yet you think it's gonna be price like your average run if the mill cheap laptop? Get real.Single sign-on is a big seller for me but I am not terribly willing to give up everything for the walled garden of RT just yet. Maybe I will be in the Atom/IVB tablet territory but it will be under Windows 8 + desktop environment. Then again, where am I going to fit in a laptop that can play Battlefield 3 into that mix and my budget? :rolleyes:

Oh and yes, I saw the specifications wars starting up already. Were not these devices supposed to transcend that...somehow?

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 06:37 PM
That isn't an ad hominem attack, man. It's more thinly veiled sarcasm and attempted character assassination than anything.

It's like this. If someone were to walk up to me on the street and say the the sky is made of swiss cheese, and that gas going up 15 cents is proof of an illuminati conspiracy, I wouldn't argue with him. I'd call him a dipstick.

And if he comes back at me with "YOU CANNOT REFUTE ME WITHOUT RESORTING TO AD HOMINEM", then I'd say "well, the fact you think the sky is made of swiss cheese is enough to prove you wrong, and me right".

In other words, there's no point in arguing with someone who has a pointless argument. It's not ad hominem if you call them out on that. In fact, ad hominem isn't really insulting people at all. It isn't a logical fallacy because you're not using the insult to refute their argument. I'm just making fun of you. Now if I were to say "well, that argument is stupid, because you like pixie sticks, and people who like pixie sticks are stupid", then that's an ad hominem attack.

Big difference. The more you know.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 06:41 PM
You get this sort of half right. Microsoft was never a brilliant marketing company. In fact they have rarely been even a middling marketing company. Seems whenever a company enjoys great success somebody is in a big hurry to attribute it all to "marketing," whatever that is.

Would love to sit down and discuss this further with you. Though I never worked for MS (came close once), I have 20 years in IT and lots of experience working with them through partnerships and OEM relationships, so I'm fairly well versed in all things MS, as well as knowing lots and lots of people who used to work there (I'm ex-IBM, so I worked with lots of ex-MS people), but it's such a complex and big subject my view is small compared to others and always an interesting topic to discuss.

My feeling is that this behemoth is dying, and slowly. They are first and foremost a software company, built on something, whether you believe a monopoly or as you say "a leveraged opportunity" (a fun point to discuss some other time), and they find themselves in a world where that former ubiquitousness of their OS doesn't apply any longer (though they struggle to find ways to prolong it).

They won't die for a long time, due to their entrenchment in systems, especially and mostly related to the business world. If they were mostly in the home vs. in the office, they'd die sooner, but that's not the case. That said, nothing they come out with any more is new or innovative, they can't even begin to lead in any way, they merely follow, and more and more by years behind others. They never were leaders, but they just seem to lag further and further behind these days, and nothing I see contradicts this feeling of mine that they are dying, especially not this latest product (which is a deviation from what they are - they are a S/W company, not a H/W company, what are they doing??!!). They are dying and lost and using an odometer as a compass to find their way out of the world in which they find themselves. Sad story really.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 06:43 PM
Not the sound but the way the Smart Cover snaps on magnetically was an Apple innovation. Prior to that, Microsoft would have bundled a keyboard that would have been attached, perhaps a slider or a reversible cover.

Eh, hard to say. I admit the Smart Cover is a very well designed and pretty damn clever, but I wouldn't say it's Apple's alone. And even if it is in that instance, you could say the MS keyboard is an innovation upon their innovation, considering it does a good bit more than just snap on. It's an improvement upon a previous idea, which means they're not straight up copying. They're innovating themselves.

Nonetheless, I like that MS is following Apple's lead on good design. I haven't used or bought a Microsoft product in 10 years but I would buy a Surface or a Windows 8 phone if I were to become unhappy with the future of iOS and OSX.

Yeah. Same here. If there's one thing I'm truly thankful of Apple for, it's making attractive, well designed hardware a necessity to compete in the marketplace.

LOLZpersonok
Oct 16, 2012, 06:52 PM
And with each new purchase comes free dancing ability and cool/popularity attribute (just like in Sims), so it says in the advertisement.

Intel Core i5 in a tablet seems pretty cool for the Surface Pro...Main reason I want it.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 06:55 PM
They are dying and lost and using an odometer as a compass to find their way out of the world in which they find themselves. Sad story really.

They're hardly dying. No other company even comes close to matching them in enterprise. Sure, there are alternatives, but none of them quite offer as complete a package as MS does. You can hit up Ars Technica, or any other tech site that generally knows what they're talking about and see that MS is still as strong as they've ever been, and continually improving on that front.

What's in danger here is their hold on the consumer market, which, while not quite beaten in pure numbers, isn't nearly as secure as it once was.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 07:00 PM
They're hardly dying....

What's in danger here is their hold on the consumer market, which, while not quite beaten in pure numbers, isn't nearly as secure as it once was.

Thanks for agreeing with me. That is exactly what I said.

BTW, their marketshare in mobiles and tablets, which is where the world is going is????

They are not as ubiquitous as they once were, they have nothing interesting to offer except entrenchment, they will find themselves just another s/w company at some point, with no more market share than others.

It is an interesting subject to discuss, but it will also be (as I said earlier) a business school case study.


Intel Core i5 in a tablet seems pretty cool for the Surface Pro...Main reason I want it.

And what benefit does that provide you? Does Grandma or Mom or Brother/Sister not in IT understand the benefit of that "feature"? Do you even know how it performs? Why do you think that Apple stopped advertising detailed specs in its devices? It's because the world doesn't understand or want to understand details of specs to that degree, and also because they are largely irrelevant. i5 vs. A6 vs. AMD, who the ****** cares? Which is better? Only engineers and morons would argue one or the other, like a bunch of men with greasy hands standing around a car with its hood/bonnet up while looking at the engine feeling that their manhood is wrapped up in knowing the parts of the engine and being able to comment on them. The world is moving beyond that time/era. Do I want a device that performs? Do I want one that performs well, hell yes. Do I care what processor it has within? Not one bit, and Intel can go suck a lollipop for all I care, they and others want you to care, but we as consumers should not care one bit, and consumers largely don't. It's the IT crowd that haven't figured this out yet.

Rogifan
Oct 16, 2012, 07:04 PM
I'm surprised people are shocked at Microsoft's pricing of Surface. Their biggest competition is there OEM partners. If they price this too cheap then they really screw over Lenovo, Sony, Asus, Dell, Acer, HP, etc. I'm sure they were sensitive to their OEMs when pricing this.

As far as the touch cover I think $120 is ridiculous. Even if it works it's obvious it's not going to be anything like typing on a good laptop keyboard. I find it interesting that Microsoft's so focused on the magnetic attachment of the cover versus the fact that the cover can be used as a keyboard. Makes me wonder how good the keyboard actually is. Since Apple has already done the magnetic cover that's the last thing Microsoft should be focusing on.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 07:12 PM
Thanks for agreeing with me. That is exactly what I said.

The consumer and enterprise markets are entirely separate. MS could lose the consumer market and still be absolutely massive, just not as massive as they once were.

Though considering their popularity in the console market, which they're slowly transitioning to an AppleTV like service through software, it's doubful they'll ever lose it completely.

BTW, their marketshare in mobiles and tablets, which is where the world is going is????

Mobile? Dropped significantly, now slowly, slowly, sllloooowwwyyy rising. They're not beaten their either. Rather, they took an unexpected beating from the iPhone.

They are not as ubiquitous as they once were, they have nothing interesting to offer except entrenchment, they will find themselves just another s/w company at some point, with no more market share than others.

They never were truly ubiquitous in the mobile space. Their smartphones were more enterprise toys than anything, with barely any hold in the consumer market. Computers? Hell, the vast majority of the world still owns Windows laptops and desktops. Enterprise? You can't throw a rock without hitting 500,000 licensees. Considering their recent move into virtualization with Windows Server 2012, it's doubtful they'll be going anywhere there.

They're not dying. They're nowhere near dying. They just finally have some competition.

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As far as the touch cover I think $120 is ridiculous.

And that price better be for the clicky keyboard. If it's the flat one, I'll be tempted to smack someone.

Hell, even if it is the clicky keyboard, that's way too much. I was expecting, like, $80 at most.

----------

And what benefit does that provide you? Does Grandma or Mom or Brother/Sister not in IT understand the benefit of that "feature"? Do you even know how it performs? Why do you think that Apple stopped advertising detailed specs in its devices? It's because the world doesn't understand or want to understand details of specs to that degree, and also because they are largely irrelevant. i5 vs. A6 vs. AMD, who the ****** cares? Which is better? Only engineers and morons would argue one or the other, like a bunch of men with greasy hands standing around a car with its hood/bonnet up while looking at the engine feeling that their manhood is wrapped up in knowing the parts of the engine and being able to comment on them. The world is moving beyond that time/era. Do I want a device that performs? Do I want one that performs well, hell yes. Do I care what processor it has within? Not one bit, and Intel can go suck a lollipop for all I care, they and others want you to care, but we as consumers should not care one bit, and consumers largely don't. It's the IT crowd that haven't figured this out yet.

I love this argument.

"You want to run Photoshop? WHO CARES? Only idiots insecure about their manhood run Photoshop! The real world is playing Angry Birds".

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 07:21 PM
They just finally have some competition.

You're finally getting there. This is what I'm saying. I'm not saying that to insult you, (please understand this) meaning that I don't want to imply that you don't understand, but this statement is the crux of what I've been saying all along. They were ubiquitous, and that was their strength (and it brought money and they used it to bolster their ubiquitousness), and that's why they've survived so long.

Today (as you say) they have competition, and given the fact that they have nothing beyond entrenchment (which is my opinion), they will not survive in the same way except to become legacy when the world has moved on further. They aren't leading, they are merely entrenched (please prove me otherwise), and the world in computing and mobile devices is so different from where it was when MS first started. They can't steal or copy or buy like they used to and still compete, they must do something interesting, and I've yet to see anything that comes close to interesting. The Courier was something that had real potential, but was killed. The Surface is a huge copy of what's already out there, so why do it, especially as a s/w company?? Office, Windows, big effing yawn. Nothing new here, just same old crap updated so OEMs can sell new hardware. Give me something new and maybe you'll start to convince me that MS isn't just walking off the sprint they just finished.

pesos
Oct 16, 2012, 07:22 PM
Lol the fanbois are out in full force today. $100 less than an iPad with the same storage, AND comes with word/excel/PowerPoint and runs apps that will also run on win8? Yes thank you. Sold the ipad3 last week and preordered the surface this morning. A superthin mechanical keyboard with touchpad doubling as a cover? Sweet! Turns the thing into a full blown laptop for heavy office use or RDP/Citrix. Sccm management and more. This will be a big hit in the enterprise. I already have a ton of clients clamping for us to roll these out. The Pro version will be even easier to integrate.

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 07:30 PM
Today (as you say) they have competition, and given the fact that they have nothing beyond entrenchment (which is my opinion), they will not survive in the same way except to become legacy when the world has moved on further. They aren't leading, they are merely entrenched (please prove me otherwise), and the world in computing and mobile devices is so different from where it was when MS first started. They can't steal or copy or buy like they used to and still compete, they must do something interesting, and I've yet to see anything that comes close to interesting. The Courier was something that had real potential, but was killed. The Surface is a huge copy of what's already out there, so why do it, especially as a s/w company?? Office, Windows, big effing yawn. Nothing new here, just same old crap updated so OEMs can sell new hardware. Give me something new and maybe you'll start to convince me that MS isn't just walking off the sprint they just finished.

They have plenty more than just entrenchment (thought admittedly, that does help them quite a bit). The problem is, you're writing off everything they've done as copycat devices, and not paying heed to some of the interesting things they have done.

Like MS actually has more multitouch experience than even Apple. They've been working on the big table Surface (called Smart Table or whatever these days) since the early 2000's. The current Surface as we see it now is the culmination of what MS believes to be the perfect tablet, which they've been working on (and admittedly haven't had much success at) since around the late 90's. Their idea of the tablet is one that's capable of doing everything a PC can do on a smaller scale, vs. the media consumption/light productivity focus of the current Android/Apple tablets.

Whether their idea of the perfect tablet will net them huge profits or not remains to be seen. After all, the iPad is the perfect device for your average person who wants nothing more than to watch movies, check their email, and play around on the web. They don't need a more powerful device. But some people do. It might not be the absolutely endless amounts of grandmas who want a tablet to play solitaire on, but there is a market. If MS can address both it and the grandmas, then they have a very, very good chance of beating Apple.

That's a pretty big "if", of course. But there's plenty more to MS and the Surface than it being a Me Too device.

blahblah100
Oct 16, 2012, 07:32 PM
...


And what benefit does that provide you? Does Grandma or Mom or Brother/Sister not in IT understand the benefit of that "feature"? Do you even know how it performs? Why do you think that Apple stopped advertising detailed specs in its devices?It's because the world doesn't understand or want to understand details of specs to that degree, and also because they are largely irrelevant. i5 vs. A6 vs. AMD, who the ****** cares? Which is better? Only engineers and morons would argue one or the other, like a bunch of men with greasy hands standing around a car with its hood/bonnet up while looking at the engine feeling that their manhood is wrapped up in knowing the parts of the engine and being able to comment on them. The world is moving beyond that time/era. Do I want a device that performs? Do I want one that performs well, hell yes. Do I care what processor it has within? Not one bit, and Intel can go suck a lollipop for all I care, they and others want you to care, but we as consumers should not care one bit, and consumers largely don't. It's the IT crowd that haven't figured this out yet.

http://www.apple.com/imac/

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

I must see a different Apple website than you... the one I see still advertises i5's and i7's in it's CONSUMER products.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 07:34 PM
"You want to run Photoshop? WHO CARES? Only idiots insecure about their manhood run Photoshop! The real world is playing Angry Birds".

Completely misunderstood my point. If you need to run Photoshop, that's the issue, not which chip it requires to run, because people that use it don't give a rat's arse which chip it runs on, just whether it runs or not. But, keep looking at that engine and criticising it because it doesn't have pistons while ignoring the fact it's a rotary engine every bit as good and better in many/most cases.

Now, whether a tablet is the device you should run Photoshop is another discussion altogether, but let's for the moment stick to what I was saying about the world not needing to care about the components that make up the device. If you don't believe me, go ask all the iPad and iPhone and iPod Touch users which chip runs their device, and bring the results back here. If it's more than 10% that can accurately answer the question I'll declare you winner.

gnasher729
Oct 16, 2012, 07:35 PM
It's more like 2 years. Given that Android is 68% of the smartphone market compared to iPhone's 17% or so, the disparity in market share between the iPad and Android tablets is astounding. Plus, consider that half of "Android's" tablet market share is the Kindle Fire, which doesn't even have access to Google Play, and is really a different platform altogether.

The reason why the Android market share is so high in phones is tons and tons of cheap phones running Android. If I want to buy a cheap phone today to make phone calls, I have the choice between some truly ugly phone for £20, or a halfway acceptable looking Nokia for £40, or a nice looking phone with a touch screen for £80 - and the nice looking phone with a touch screen runs Android, but will never be used as an Android phone.

In the tablet market it's different. You wouldn't buy a £100 Android tablet just because it's cheap, because it is useless. There's some minimum price for an Android tablet that is actually worth owning. And as you say, the Kindle Fire runs Android but is not really used as an Android tablet.

Rogifan
Oct 16, 2012, 07:45 PM
And that price better be for the clicky keyboard. If it's the flat one, I'll be tempted to smack someone.

Hell, even if it is the clicky keyboard, that's way too much. I was expecting, like, $80 at most.

The thinner touch cover is $119 and the thicker type cover is $129. The models that have the touch cover included in the price only offer the black touch cover. If you want another color or the type covet you either purchase the 32GB model without the cover and add it separately (which is $20-$30 more than the bundled option) or if you really need the 64GB model you're spending $818-$828 just to get a different colored cover, or the thicker type cover. Stupid.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 07:49 PM
http://www.apple.com/imac/

http://www.apple.com/macmini/

I must see a different Apple website than you... the one I see still advertises i5's and i7's in it's CONSUMER products.

Are we seriously going to play this game? You're right, I should have said, "started to" before I said they stopped advertising the chips and memory details, but I didn't think someone would ignore trends and current and recently released products. You're parsing my words and trying to find ways to say, "I win" while ignoring the reality of the world in which we live.

Computing is changing, as it should. It's becoming much more something the average person accesses and possesses (being put into the hands of the average person, a great thing in my opinion), and the average consumer is not knowledgeable or aware of details of technology that one needed to know in the past to embrace and use these devices years ago. People shouldn't have to know about chips and memory, they should only have to worry about whether their apps run quickly (whatever stupid apps they may want to run<wry grin>). We should talk about features and benefits. Discussions such as i5 vs. ARM vs. AMD are doctor talk to the lay person, and are irrelevant in a world where CPUs aren't the only thing that matters anymore.

A few posts ago I challenged someone else to go out and ask every iPhone, iPod Touch and iPad user to indicate which chip runs their device; I now challenge you to ask them the same as well as how much memory their device has. Come back to me and if 10% can answer accurately, I'll declare you winner. If, however, less than 5% can accurately name chip and memory, you owe me a beer. How's that for fair?

Rogifan
Oct 16, 2012, 07:49 PM
Lol the fanbois are out in full force today. $100 less than an iPad with the same storage, AND comes with word/excel/PowerPoint and runs apps that will also run on win8? Yes thank you. Sold the ipad3 last week and preordered the surface this morning. A superthin mechanical keyboard with touchpad doubling as a cover? Sweet! Turns the thing into a full blown laptop for heavy office use or RDP/Citrix. Sccm management and more. This will be a big hit in the enterprise. I already have a ton of clients clamping for us to roll these out. The Pro version will be even easier to integrate.

Just curious how much MS paid you to post this. :D

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 08:01 PM
Completely misunderstood my point. If you need to run Photoshop, that's the issue, not which chip it requires to run, because people that use it don't give a rat's arse which chip it runs on, just whether it runs or not. But, keep looking at that engine and criticising it because it doesn't have pistons while ignoring the fact it's a rotary engine every bit as good and better in many/most cases.

While there are some people out there who only look at high end chips simply because they're faster, they're not representative of everyone interested in specs. You don't know why dude guy above wants the i5 Surface. He might want it to run Photoshop, Zbrush, or hell, even games on it. Things he knows he can't do on an ARM based Surface. Don't assume he's one of those aforementioned idiots just because he specifically mentioned a processor.

Now, whether a tablet is the device you should run Photoshop is another discussion altogether, but let's for the moment stick to what I was saying about the world not needing to care about the components that make up the device. If you don't believe me, go ask all the iPad and iPhone and iPod Touch users which chip runs their device, and bring the results back here. If it's more than 10% that can accurately answer the question I'll declare you winner.

To cut this down to the absolute minimum, just because Grandma aka the general public doesn't know the difference between an A6 and a door hinge doesn't suddenly mean that specs are suddenly less important than they were before. Truth be told, they never were that important to the general public to begin with, even back in the days of the gigahertz wars. They could tell you the difference between a Core2Duo and a Pentium IV about as well as they could tell you the difference between a 4S and a 5.

Hell, to turn your argument against you, why are all these people running out to buy iPhone 5? Specs don't matter, right? The 5 isn't a massive improvement upon the 4 line? Doesn't even look that much different. So why are they going out and buying them in droves, specially if they already owned a 4/4S. It's basically a spec bump revision upon the previous model. Yet there they are, buying it up because it's new and faster.

The only difference now and then is that instead of some random idiot going "IT BETTER CUZ IT GOT PINNIUM INNIT", it's now "IT BETTER CUZ 5 NOT 4 AND TALLER SCREEN". You want to disdain a whole group of people and paint them all with the same drooling idiot brush, then there you go. The equal opposite to the overly obsessed tech spec geek. Your general buying public.

haruhiko
Oct 16, 2012, 08:08 PM
Can't wait. Should be awesome. The fact it has a USB port and Micro SD is icing on the cake. It's also got a high quality screen and chassis and built in 32gb storage at base model. Yet people scoff at the price. Strange.

Considering Win8 ain't even out yet, it's app list is growing. And it's ability to sync everything with your MS account is great. Which means when I log in to it for the first time, it will match my desktop (apps, accounts, colour scheme, layout, preferences, wifi...etc).

People should be open minded , see what happens. Everyone said the iPad would fail as it had no apps and was expensive. Look where it is now. The price will come down in time.

And to those who want a Pro with Core i5 and 4gb ram, 64gb ssd etc. try and find an equivalent device for the strange price you quote of 600 dollars! Best I can do is around that for a cheap ass plastic TN panel piece of garbage. You're looking at Ultrabook or MBa territory here, all in a tablet for factor with the high quality goods. And yet you think it's gonna be price like your average run if the mill cheap laptop? Get real.
LMAO!! Did you just said high quality screen? with 1366 x 768 resolution?

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 08:13 PM
LMAO!! Did you just said high quality screen? with 1366 x 768 resolution?

If it's an IPS screen, then it's high quality. Just rather underwhelming on the resolution front.

WilliamLondon
Oct 16, 2012, 08:18 PM
But there's plenty more to MS and the Surface than it being a Me Too device.

I live in the UK and a few years ago I attended a presentation from Microsoft Research and some of the things they presented were absolutely incredible. They had human recognition technology that identified people and their facial expressions as they walked up to a camera and they animated a computer-generated person in this world (or something like that, forgive if you're from MS research). The point is, it was incredible. I know they have lots of results of research, years and money spent.

I'm also familiar with technology that is discovered or created or innovated and yet never reaches market. I know that MS has put a lot into the Surface, but at market (today) it's nothing new, and a hugely ho-hum product, that merely copies what Apple did, by creating a new OS that runs on a mobile device and migrating it to a bigger device. It's nothing new, it's not leading edge, it's not anything very interesting to be honest and it won't do anything more than appeal to a die-hard M$**t following.

The fact they did a bunch of research before they released this product is moot when the world has already been selling things like this for years. They are late, and very at that, and not for any reason other than their sitting on their collective cushioned and gold-plated arses for the past few years to see what the world does, just so they can copy it (oh, they did spend $8.5B on Skype!). They don't lead, ever. They were led by a (brilliant) college dropout (who never had an original ideal other than to take or buy or steal what others had already created) before, and now they're led by a communications marketing person (brilliant in his former role), but who isn't a product manager.

pesos
Oct 16, 2012, 08:19 PM
Just curious how much MS paid you to post this. :D

Lol I wish ;)

Renzatic
Oct 16, 2012, 08:32 PM
I'm also familiar with technology that is discovered or created or innovated and yet never reaches market. I know that MS has put a lot into the Surface, but at market (today) it's nothing new, and a hugely ho-hum product, that merely copies what Apple did, by creating a new OS that runs on a mobile device and migrating it to a bigger device. It's nothing new, it's not leading edge, it's not anything very interesting to be honest and it won't do anything more than appeal to a die-hard M$**t following.

The fact they did a bunch of research before they released this product is moot when the world has already been selling things like this for years. They are late, and very at that, and not for any reason other than their sitting on their collective cushioned and gold-plated arses for the past few years to see what the world does, just so they can copy it (oh, they did spend $8.5B on Skype!). They don't lead, ever. They were led by a (brilliant) college dropout (who never had an original ideal other than to take or buy or steal what others had already created) before, and now they're led by a communications marketing person (brilliant in his former role), but who isn't a product manager.

If you take the Surface at face value, as a standalone product, you're right. It's a decent tablet, but eh...it hasn't exactly cause my brain to leak out of my ear or anything. It's good enough, and good enough really won't cut it when it's going against the quality of the iDevices, or the huge numbers Android has behind it.

But if you look at the bigger picture, take the Surface as their consumer level device for grand, absolutely huge ecosystem built around Windows 8, you'll see it as an interesting first step into the market. Everything MS is releasing, Windows Phone, Xbox360, the Surface RT and Pro, laptops, PCs, are all knit together very tightly. Everything works together, plays well together, and is easy to jump between. It's basically what Apple is trying to do with iCloud and AppleTV, cept MS already has millions of Xboxes in homes already, millions of PCs out there, and much wider support than the iDevice/Mac specific ecosystem.

Apple might've beat MS to the mobile market, but it looks like MS is about to trump them on the ecosystem front. Once again, I can't say this will be a guaranteed victory for them, but it's a helluva lot more interesting than you're claiming.

AngerDanger
Oct 16, 2012, 08:44 PM
Congratulations, Microsoft. I love your ad and am eager to see your new product. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qpNxbYcX8Fk/Tpm9fsbC5OI/AAAAAAAADUQ/mN6NZTSQ7Js/win8_logo_20.png

hamkor04
Oct 16, 2012, 09:04 PM
M$ steps on itself once again. Pricing offers no one but the hardest corest M$ fans (are there any left?) a reason to buy. It can't compete with either Android or iOS at this price point. Enterprise already hates Windows 8 and loves iOS. Consumers have long felt trapped by Windows until iOS presented them a post PC option. Anti-Apple folks adopted Android. Who's left to buy Surface?

this puzzles me, why M$s strategy is so "unusual" who that sh** head makes decisions.
:confused:

----------

Congratulations, Microsoft. I love your ad and am eager to see your new product. Image (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qpNxbYcX8Fk/Tpm9fsbC5OI/AAAAAAAADUQ/mN6NZTSQ7Js/win8_logo_20.png)

as a consumer, i am looking forward too, but can't guaranty to buy one (any tablets)

Tiger8
Oct 16, 2012, 09:10 PM
I might be the minority, but that ad is probably one of the best ads Microsoft ever had! 'phone beta test' and 'to the cloud' ads were horrible to say the least!

It actually made me take note, and it was very well directed.

I still won't buy a surface though lol

mustang_dvs
Oct 16, 2012, 09:16 PM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT VIOLATES SO MANY PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!

Apple actually licensed their patents to Microsoft for the Surface, including their patent on embedding the keyboard into the tablet cover.

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2012/08/microsoft-surface-will-license-apple.html

MacinDoc
Oct 16, 2012, 10:00 PM
Apple actually licensed their patents to Microsoft for the Surface, including their patent on embedding the keyboard into the tablet cover.

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/blog/techflash/2012/08/microsoft-surface-will-license-apple.html
Kind of makes me wonder, with the cross-licensing of the keyboard cover patents, if we can expect to see one soon for the iPad, as well.

I, for one, think that with its increased storage compared to a comparably priced iPad, and with its improved interoperability with Office products, the Surface will push Apple to be more competitive with its tablet offerings, and I look forward to the rivalry between products and ecosystems. After all, there is no reason why Apple can't offer a single 64 GB model for the same price as the current 16 GB model; the lower model simply exists to satisfy Apple's desired starting price point and to make the higher models look like they offer more for the money.

The real question will be whether Android can continue to be competitive in the tablet market when MS and Apple bring out the big guns. I suspect that the iPad Mini will be fairly competitive comparable 7" Android tablets, and will likely have a severe impact on Android tablet sales. It remains to be seen whether Samsung and others will decide that there is still a buck to be made on the Android tablet market, or whether they will switch over to Metro instead. It will be interesting to see whether this will end up being a two horse race or a three horse race, as far as tablet operating systems go.

ArtOfWarfare
Oct 16, 2012, 10:06 PM
Mostly true except enterprise loves windows 7 not os anything

The surface runs Windows 8? Also, if you'd like to get technical, it's Windows OS 8 and Windows OS 7.

Rogifan
Oct 16, 2012, 10:32 PM
Oops...

http://gizmodo.com/5952370/watch-a-microsoft-exec-hilariously-rap-with-a-rapper-about-******-two-btches

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=Wm5npx2nJ9w&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWm5npx2nJ9w

maxwelltech
Oct 16, 2012, 10:39 PM
Used Windows 8, hated it. I would rather get an iPad for that price, refurbished models are $549. $50 more for a much better screen, and the whole app ecosystem.

G51989
Oct 16, 2012, 11:49 PM
Used Windows 8, hated it. I would rather get an iPad for that price, refurbished models are $549. $50 more for a much better screen, and the whole app ecosystem.

So your willing to pay more for a giant phone? Imo.

WIndows 8 blows away iOS

----------

Say bye bye to the pc

Yep!

Say goodbye to desktop and laptop computers that are more capable, more productive, and more powerful, and longer lasting than tablets.

Geckotek
Oct 17, 2012, 12:04 AM
Yes, it is. It was intended to distract from the argument I made, which is that M$**t copies, they don't innovate, and you pointed out that Apple doesn't either.

:

A) no it was not intended to distract
B) MS rarely copies and no more than any other company when they have. Certainly less than Samsung. MS is one of the best innovators of the past 30 years. Not every innovation was a raging success, but saying they never innovate reveals your prejudiced argument and makes it difficult to believe you think with a clear mind.


Edit: odd how a few posts later you admit MS innovates. Like so many on here your hatred for a company causes you to contradict yourself just to prove a negative point.

And I never said Apple doesn't innovate. In fact, they do. I said a product doesn't need to be innovative to be a raging success.

Confuzzzed
Oct 17, 2012, 12:16 AM
I have read most of the heavily up-voted cynicism. It may have been said by others already but this machine does have one very significant advantage over the iPad. Microsoft office. Most business users have some use for that to allow across system synchronisation. And Windows 7 is really a decent platform these days, assuming 8 is not a complete dud, I can see some decent (10-15%) share taken up by this

G51989
Oct 17, 2012, 01:09 AM
You're comparing the gaming console market (a dying market BTW).

Dying Market? Sales have slowed, because new consoles are right around the corner ( everyone knows it, Console people tend to follow this stuff pretty closely ).

But over 100 Million Wiis Sold? 70ish Million XBOX 360s? 70 millionish PS3s? That's well over the number of iPads Apple has sold.

I'd hardly call it a dead market

The next Battle is in the living room, where Microsoft already has standing, and Apple has nothing.

Apple TV atm is a Joke, the XBOX 360 can do everything a Apple TV can do, and also play games.

The next XBOX will be a living room Media powerhouse, even more than the 360 already is.

For real Gaming, you need a console, or a high end PC to really enjoy games. ****** iOS games can't hold a candle to real games.

Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 02:03 AM
Interesting and rather geek-centric article about Studio B (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/10/how-microsoft-transformed-studio-b-into-a-real-hardware-company/), the hardware division behind the Surface. What I find particularly interesting is that they've been working on it for three years now, which would mean it's been at least in the planning stages since shortly before the iPad was first unveiled.

Though I won't be buying a Surface anytime soon, I am keeping a close eye on it to see how it fares over the next year or so. It's best positioned to be the happy medium between the high quality, but far too tightly controlled iDevices, and the spotty quality, but much more freeform Android phones and tablets.

Cod3rror
Oct 17, 2012, 02:10 AM
What's the point of that commercial, other than to make you "feel" really good about a product they give you virtually no information regarding? No specs, no pricing, no availability, a brief comment about colours and apps on some website. This is advertising today - "buy our product so you'll feel better in life." There's nothing about what it does, what it can do, how it can help/benefit your life, other than to make you happier, which we never require them to prove. Might as well promise superhero powers if you buy their product.

This is why I never watch commercial television: the advertisements. They're catchy and fun, but they're so frigging manipulative I prefer to think for myself and decide for myself and make informed decisions not based on whether that woman in the bikini on the motorcycle comes with each purchase, or she'll be what's on offer after purchase in every woman who sees me on that bike.

Why not just do away with products entirely, give money to these corporate overlords and each time you pay they give you a drug injection that makes you feel better. At least they'd be honouring their promise they advertise in their commercials.

/steps down off soapbox

That is so very, very true.

k995
Oct 17, 2012, 02:16 AM
One thing is for certain: However many they sell, virtually every Surface Microsoft moves will take a bite out of one of the Windows OEMs. If the Surface is successful, I can see it driving the Windows OEMs further into the arms of Google.

So? Now every tablet probably is a bite ass well, if they capture part of themarket they loose less then they do now.

knightlie
Oct 17, 2012, 02:21 AM
What's the point of that commercial, other than to make you "feel" really good about a product they give you virtually no information regarding? No specs, no pricing, no availability, a brief comment about colours and apps on some website. This is advertising today - "buy our product so you'll feel better in life." There's nothing about what it does, what it can do, how it can help/benefit your life, other than to make you happier, which we never require them to prove. Might as well promise superhero powers if you buy their product.

This is how Microsoft always advertises their products, all smoke and mirrors and no substance.

This will do well in enterprise - we're crying out for USABLE Windows tablets which don't suck like the current crop - but consumers? I don't think so. Why would you?

Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 02:30 AM
You're all bashing MS like they're fooling us with indirect advertising. It's not like Apple releases bare basics down to the nuts and bolts commercials that tell you everthing you need to know about the product they're selling. Like I have yet to see an iPad ad that shows you exactly how to use the thing, and what it consists of. It's just a bunch of people smiling out in fields full of flowers, occasionally jabbing their fingers and the screen and smiling even more as the voiceover talks about how they changed everything again.

...and then a kid blows some bubbles, and a mom claps her hands as she takes a picture of it with her new iPhone. Yeah. I can see how that's so much more informative than a super fancy dance routine. Maybe a little less abstract, but...hell. It's advertising.

KevinN206
Oct 17, 2012, 02:30 AM
This is how Microsoft always advertises their products, all smoke and mirrors and no substance.

This will do well in enterprise - we're crying out for USABLE Windows tablets which don't suck like the current crop - but consumers? I don't think so. Why would you?
Really, kinda like how Apple advertises the iPod with abstract colors? The purpose of that specific ads was to be up-beat and high energy. They will then slowly dwell into the features-focused ads like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0m6tq8vK7E

knightlie
Oct 17, 2012, 02:31 AM
Don't be so naive / ignorant. The iPod does more than just play music (even back when these commercials were relevant) and the Surface does more than click. The commercials are meant to pump you up and hit you with some branding at the end. Nothing more. It's all about mindshare.

D.

"Microsoft - yes, the one who made your dad's PC."

I'm not sure what mindshare they are going to get, Microsoft are simply not relevant to an ever growing number of people for whom "tablet" = "iPad".

Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 02:36 AM
"Microsoft - yes, the one who made your dad's PC."

Apple also made your dad's Mac. Microsoft also made your brother's Xbox, the one all his college friends are playing NBA2k13 on.

Computers aren't like clothes, man. If a new device comes out that looks nice, offers a ton of cool features, and lets you do what you want to do, then it's likely going to sell.

sineplex
Oct 17, 2012, 02:38 AM
Well, Microsoft's biggest strength is its dominating power in the desktop OS market. When people start switching to Windows 8 on their desktops (which they will because from Oct 26 on, every computer will ship with one) metro apps will be all over the place.

except that most of the planet continues to use windows xp ;)

claudiodsf
Oct 17, 2012, 02:38 AM
LOL the finger smears at 0:56 :D

KevinN206
Oct 17, 2012, 02:38 AM
I know this is a Mac forum but I thought that people would be happy with the price?

Double the storage and RAM of the iPad and the ability to ACTUALLY multitask for the same price as the iPad 16gb...

Seems like a bargain if you ask me! If Windows RT is anything like Windows Phone 7.5 it will be as slick as hell. Windows Phone software blows iOS out of the water in terms of running on low power devices with fluidity.

Its not Microsoft's fault there are no apps yet, you got to start somewhere...

I know iPad has retina but I had iPad 1 and 3, and yes I noticed a difference but it made no diffidence at all to how I used it.
I was told by someone from this forums some time ago that having two apps at the same time is a "gimmick" and that it's not possible for me to view two things at the same time. Imagine video Skyping while playing a game against the other person on your tablet. Or maybe text chatting with a friend while browsing the web? I would say that's pretty darn useful.

k995
Oct 17, 2012, 02:40 AM
It's more like 2 years. Given that Android is 68% of the smartphone market compared to iPhone's 17% or so, the disparity in market share between the iPad and Android tablets is astounding.
Not really as they are 2 different markets.

Android also came later, android 3.0 only came march 2011 so thats a year and a half. By end 2009 (year and a half of smartphone OS) it had 8-10%

40% was more 2.5years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Wide-Smartphone-Market-Share.png



Plus, consider that half of "Android's" tablet market share is the Kindle Fire, which doesn't even have access to Google Play, and is really a different platform altogether.

Its android, the whole idea of android is its easy custimization (als called fragmentation by some)



I agree Metro app quality is there. That's why Microsoft is following the Apple approach, rather than Google's approach (or even the Windows Desktop approach) with the Windows Store.

Surface could be very compelling. I actually think the pricing is OK. Ballmer said as much a few months ago when he said that $300-$800 is the sweet spot. The most common Surface units will fall in the middle to top half of that range.

What wouldn't surprise me is if all 3 platforms co-exist (4 if you count Kindle Fire separately as I do). Kindle Fire and the iPad Mini may dominate the lower end. iPad and Surface will share the mid-range and high end. Pure Android will likely tend toward the lower end but will be present in the mid-range as well.

I see the same, MS, apple and google all are big enough to keep pushing and all have enough riding on it to make it worth there while.

knightlie
Oct 17, 2012, 02:40 AM
If a new device comes out that looks nice, offers a ton of cool features, and lets you do what you want to do, then it's likely going to sell.

It already did. http://www.apple.com/ipad.

k995
Oct 17, 2012, 02:43 AM
except that most of the planet continues to use windows xp ;)

http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share_by_os_version.php?1=1&timeframe=last_6&interval=month&chart_id=4&fltr_br=&fltr_os=&fltr_se=&fltr_cn=&limit%5B%5D=windows

Not even close 33% XP vs 53% 7

Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 02:44 AM
It already did. http://www.apple.com/ipad.

Yeah, and it's going to be the most popular tablet forever and ever and ever. Nevermind that MS, a company that currently has over 1.3 billion devices running their software, is suddenly completely irrelevant. Cuz iPad.

k995
Oct 17, 2012, 02:44 AM
"Microsoft - yes, the one who made your dad's PC."

I'm not sure what mindshare they are going to get, Microsoft are simply not relevant to an ever growing number of people for whom "tablet" = "iPad".

People use more then just a tablet, they use destops and laptops and 90% of those still are windows.

sineplex
Oct 17, 2012, 03:14 AM
http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share_by_os_version.php?1=1&timeframe=last_6&interval=month&chart_id=4&fltr_br=&fltr_os=&fltr_se=&fltr_cn=&limit%5B%5D=windows

Not even close 33% XP vs 53% 7

ok. then they'll have to give it away. who isn't sticking with windows 7. it's the best windows os yet!
also 33% is huge!

everything-i
Oct 17, 2012, 04:36 AM
That advert is a joke right?

Well at least it made me laugh, probably not the reaction they were looking for though. Typical M$ looking like a kid just trying too hard to be cool.

jpadhiyar
Oct 17, 2012, 05:29 AM
No matter what they introduce in the touchscreen era, they're going to be far behind Apple.

The pricing is very odd - those who don't want the Apple will get their Android tabs. And those who are willing to shell out some money will go for the iPad.

Ramchi
Oct 17, 2012, 06:16 AM
The surface looks nice, especially with a nice price. Unfortunately, apple spoiled me with the ipad retina display. Now I can't look at a non-retina display, especially a tablet, the same way now. Every thing else sucks.

This is a very important one. I have bought two new iPad (sold iPad 2 and bought one for me and one for my wife) 64 GB LTE model simply because of its impeccable display. I had to choose between Galaxy Note 10.1 & new iPad but with huge cost difference, I went for new iPad though new iPad lacks horse power (CPU) and RAM but display is really amazing!

I might consider Galaxy Note (tablet) when they change to AMOLED. TFT screen is not really great.

k995
Oct 17, 2012, 06:20 AM
ok. then they'll have to give it away. who isn't sticking with windows 7. it's the best windows os yet!

Ever used 8? I have and its every bit as good as 7 and on some area's better.


also 33% is huge!

Not really

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10

Mac OS X 10.6 2.06%
Mac OS X 10.7 2.05%
Mac OS X 10.8 1.41%

Lets not forget windows is a lot more spread out then OSX wich only runs on high end hardware add to that the illegals markets, third word countries, integrated systems,...

----------

No matter what they introduce in the touchscreen era, they're going to be far behind Apple.

The pricing is very odd - those who don't want the Apple will get their Android tabs. And those who are willing to shell out some money will go for the iPad.

This mindset always amazes me, thiose who can afford it buy apple al the rest android.

BS of course, people buy for a whole lot of reasons price is just one among those.

jca666us
Oct 17, 2012, 06:52 AM
It doesn't violate Apple's patents. There is a cross-licensning deal for this technology between Apple and Microsoft. So, MS paid the piper. Which is maybe why it's so expensive? Just speculation on my part.

I do wonder if Microsoft will push the pricing model for storage down. Surface 32GB = iPad 16GB. We'll see.

It's interesting that the base Surface comes with 32 gig of storage and 2 gig. of ram.

If it's typical Microsoft, I'd guess their codebase isn't quite optimized (yet).

----------

No matter what they introduce in the touchscreen era, they're going to be far behind Apple.

The pricing is very odd - those who don't want the Apple will get their Android tabs. And those who are willing to shell out some money will go for the iPad.

They're pricing it like an iPad, but with lesser hardware specs.

Non-retina display & junky click keyboard? Please. Microsoft needs to sell a boatload of them, just to pay for the R&D

Instead of dancing buffoons and clicking keyboards, the commercial should have shown ways in which the Surface is superior to the iPad.

If they can't do that in 45 seconds, and are relying on a gimmick, then they're in trouble.

----------

If you take the Surface at face value, as a standalone product, you're right. It's a decent tablet, but eh...it hasn't exactly cause my brain to leak out of my ear or anything. It's good enough, and good enough really won't cut it when it's going against the quality of the iDevices, or the huge numbers Android has behind it.

But if you look at the bigger picture, take the Surface as their consumer level device for grand, absolutely huge ecosystem built around Windows 8, you'll see it as an interesting first step into the market. Everything MS is releasing, Windows Phone, Xbox360, the Surface RT and Pro, laptops, PCs, are all knit together very tightly. Everything works together, plays well together, and is easy to jump between. It's basically what Apple is trying to do with iCloud and AppleTV, cept MS already has millions of Xboxes in homes already, millions of PCs out there, and much wider support than the iDevice/Mac specific ecosystem.

Apple might've beat MS to the mobile market, but it looks like MS is about to trump them on the ecosystem front. Once again, I can't say this will be a guaranteed victory for them, but it's a helluva lot more interesting than you're claiming.

Except Windows RT <> Windows 8 tablet

Apple beat Microsoft to mobile, and it has made everything anyone has come out with look like a bad copy of ios.

I think Apple's got Microsoft beaten by two years on the ecosystem front - that's assuming apple stands still.

----------

Not the sound but the way the Smart Cover snaps on magnetically was an Apple innovation. Prior to that, Microsoft would have bundled a keyboard that would have been attached, perhaps a slider or a reversible cover.

Nonetheless, I like that MS is following Apple's lead on good design. I haven't used or bought a Microsoft product in 10 years but I would buy a Surface or a Windows 8 phone if I were to become unhappy with the future of iOS and OSX.

Except for that lame kickstand. That's bad design; if I bought the surface - I'd dremel off the kickstand.

----------

I would say that MS has undercut Apple by $100, a safe amount, but noticeable. They have also made enough space to drop the price, although they don't often do this. Good placement vs the leader. I'd say they are ignoring Android completely with this pricing. It's actually pretty obvious. And downright MS-like. (or Apple-like, if you prefer)

Also, see single word below. I think there are many chomping at the bit to have a real access to Office docs on a tablet. We'll see.

Except - throw the ipad mini into the mix. That pricing structure will hurt the surface.

I think we'll need to compare a Touch version of Office to Pages. I don't miss Office at all.

Ramchi
Oct 17, 2012, 07:10 AM
Microsoft has too many variations - Windows RT, Windows RT Pro, Windows 8, Windows 8 Professional, Windows 8 Home & Students.....not sure how many more variety they are going to come up with. These versions have lots of conflict with the hardware that they are planning to make (RT will not be backward compatible while Pro is and so on....)

Besides, there is no 3G/LTE App Store needs to pick up...

I am sure Apple is banking on its MS Office 2013 which is probably the only differentiating factor.

Winni
Oct 17, 2012, 07:19 AM
This is how Microsoft always advertises their products, all smoke and mirrors and no substance.

This will do well in enterprise - we're crying out for USABLE Windows tablets which don't suck like the current crop - but consumers? I don't think so. Why would you?

I think it's quite the opposite. There are not many business scenarios where tablet computers make ANY sense - electronic data capture, for example in clinical trials, are an area where tablets can do great. But where else can they replace a notebook?

The Surface is a hybrid solution, and THAT makes sense. You can use it like a pure tablet if you WANT to, but you can ALSO use it as a real notebook - if you WANT to.

This thing can do a lot for most consumers that not always need a "real" computer but also do not want to spend the money on two devices because once in a while they do need to use some software that requires a "real" computer and not just a couch surfboard.

And the "Pro" version of the Surface runs the "real" thing and is compatible to millions of legacy applications. The "RT" requires software that is compatible to the ARM architecture, but it's safe to assume that we will soon drown in that software. Even though it's a different CPU, it's still Windows running on top of it. Porting should be rather straight forward. And unlike what most people seem to believe, the "RT" version is NOT limited to just Windows 8-style (formerly known as "Metro") apps.

The Surface does not have a Retina display. So what? The iPad 2 is still being sold and it does not have a Retina display either. In all likelihood, the iPad Mini will also come with a non-Retina display. Obviously even Apple knows that Retina displays are not a killer argument.

I think the Surface is an interesting product for millions of consumers, and I think the Surface concept is going to steal away a lot of potential iPad customers. Unlike the iPad, the Surface actually CAN replace a computer. And unlike Apple, Microsoft licenses their software to the remaining industry, so there will be hundreds of different products from many vendors that will all be software compatible with each other.

Personally, I would certainly chose a "Pro" Surface (the forthcoming version with the Intel CPU) over an iPad, even if it's going to be more expensive. And even if I had to chose between and iPad and an "RT" Surface, I'd still go for the Surface. iOS will always be the deal breaker for me.

----------

Microsoft has too many variations - Windows RT, Windows RT Pro, Windows 8, Windows 8 Professional, Windows 8 Home & Students.....not sure how many more variety they are going to come up with. These versions have lots of conflict with the hardware that they are planning to make (RT will not be backward compatible while Pro is and so on....)

Besides, there is no 3G/LTE App Store needs to pick up...

I am sure Apple is banking on its MS Office 2013 which is probably the only differentiating factor.


It's actually rather simple:

Windows RT --> ARM architecture, third party software is only available through Microsoft's online store

Windows 8 --> Intel architecture, no Domain features (== "home" edition), software is available through all channels

Windows 8 Pro --> Intel architecture, Domain features and enterprise ready (this is the version that you want to use in a corporate network), software is available through all channels

At this point, other versions are basically irrelevant or can only be purchased through enterprise volume license agreements - which means that as a consumer you won't even see those versions in a store and thus they cannot confuse anybody.

----------

No matter what they introduce in the touchscreen era, they're going to be far behind Apple.

The pricing is very odd - those who don't want the Apple will get their Android tabs. And those who are willing to shell out some money will go for the iPad.

And those who do not want to buy a notebook AND a tablet will simply buy ONE device: The Surface. THAT is what Microsoft is trying to do.

maflynn
Oct 17, 2012, 07:26 AM
Looks like preorders is high enough that shipping dates are slipping to the 2-3 week range. I'm a bit surprise given the high price but that is good news for MS.

Rogifan
Oct 17, 2012, 07:30 AM
Looks like preorders is high enough that shipping dates are slipping to the 2-3 week range. I'm a bit surprise given the high price but that is good news for MS.

For the $499 model without touch cover. I wonder if people are choosing that model so they can get a different color or the type cover, or if they think $100-$130 is too much to fork over for the accessory.

Sue De Nimes
Oct 17, 2012, 07:45 AM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT UTILIZES SO MANY APPLE PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!


Which patents in particular does it infringe?

jazz1
Oct 17, 2012, 07:57 AM
Just saying...I paid $69.00 for my leather Apple Smart Cover, and it is only a cover. I'm not interested in the Surface tablet. I'd upgrade my iPad2 to a 3 or and add a third part BT keyboard if I really wanted a keyboard.

Geckotek
Oct 17, 2012, 08:04 AM
except that most of the planet continues to use windows xp ;)

That hasn't been the case for a year now.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#os-ww-monthly-200910-201110

adildacoolset
Oct 17, 2012, 08:32 AM
This is a very important one. I have bought two new iPad (sold iPad 2 and bought one for me and one for my wife) 64 GB LTE model simply because of its impeccable display. I had to choose between Galaxy Note 10.1 & new iPad but with huge cost difference, I went for new iPad though new iPad lacks horse power (CPU) and RAM but display is really amazing!

I might consider Galaxy Note (tablet) when they change to AMOLED. TFT screen is not really great.

I've seen that the new iPads screen is way better than the notes. My dad owns one, and I was able to compare side by side. And why exactly isn't TFT really that great? Amoled is over saturated with unreal colours, and doesn't have as good of viewing angles as IPS. The only thing good is the contrast. Which probably explains why the android UI is so dark and lonely in mobile phones.

KdParker
Oct 17, 2012, 08:41 AM
Looks like preorders is high enough that shipping dates are slipping to the 2-3 week range. I'm a bit surprise given the high price but that is good news for MS.

That is good news for MS. Wonder when/if they will have a 7 inch model soon.

KPOM
Oct 17, 2012, 08:53 AM
Not really as they are 2 different markets.

Android also came later, android 3.0 only came march 2011 so thats a year and a half. By end 2009 (year and a half of smartphone OS) it had 8-10%

40% was more 2.5years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Wide-Smartphone-Market-Share.png



By that logic, we should compare iPhone's market share as of December 2008 (about 13%, well behind Symbian and RIM) to iOS' share of the tablet market in mid 2011 (about 80%).



Its android, the whole idea of android is its easy custimization (als called fragmentation by some)


No, what Amazon did isn't "customization." It's called "forking." They didn't merely put a skin on it like Samsung does with Touchwiz. They removed critical components and replaced them with their own. Google doesn't get any search revenue from the Kindle Fire, nor does the Kindle Fire support Google Play. Most Android apps can be run on a Kindle Fire but it takes tinkering to get them on there in the first place. But since they open sourced the OS there's nothing they can do about it. Nevertheless, Google is actively competing against the Kindle Fire with the Nexus 7, which is far different from their strategy with the Nexus phone lines.

Tingler
Oct 17, 2012, 08:53 AM
Has anyone here actually seen the Surface and used/tried it in person? All the Microsoft hate is crazy.

Geckotek
Oct 17, 2012, 09:03 AM
This is a very important one. I have bought two new iPad (sold iPad 2 and bought one for me and one for my wife) 64 GB LTE model simply because of its impeccable display. I had to choose between Galaxy Note 10.1 & new iPad but with huge cost difference, I went for new iPad though new iPad lacks horse power (CPU) and RAM but display is really amazing!

I might consider Galaxy Note (tablet) when they change to AMOLED. TFT screen is not really great.

I'm curious what makes you think the new iPad lacks in CPU and RAM? Are you trying to make a direct comparison of numbers between systems running different OSs and different CPUs? That just doesn't work, apples and oranges. The new iPad performs wonderfully with the CPU and RAM it has.

KPOM
Oct 17, 2012, 09:03 AM
Except there was nothing like the iPhone available in the smartphone market at the time. The Surface is just an iPad clone at this point. The only thing interesting about the Surface is the Metro interface and maybe the keyboard smart cover.


There is promise in the Windows RT ecosystem, though. Microsoft will be pushing Metro hard. I read (at Ars Technica, I believe) that Desktop is to Windows 8 what DOS 5.0 was to Windows 3.0. Clearly it will be around for a while longer, but it won't be getting any more significant updates. Microsoft wants all future development to be focused on the Metro interface.

If developers go along with it and port their best applications from Windows Desktop to Metro, the ARM-based Surface and similar WinRT devices could become legitimate notebook replacements. That's a big if right now, though. Microsoft including Office with the Surface is a big boost in itself, though it would be better if it were the full edition and not the Home and Student edition.

the8thark
Oct 17, 2012, 09:44 AM
MS currently has the best selling console this generation

Prove it. Any links to back you up?
As far as I know the Nintendo sold way more Wiis then Song and MS did their consoles. http://www.geekwire.com/2012/xbox-360-tops-wii-ps3-1st-time-yearly-global-sales/

A few months before a new console comes out of cause. No one will buy X product when the upgrade to it is just on the horizon. Wait till thew Wii U sales figures are out then you'll really know.

Rogifan
Oct 17, 2012, 09:51 AM
According to Microsoft, Windows RT, Office and any other pre-loaded apps take up ~12GB of space. I believe on the iPad ~1GB is used for the OS? So really you're not getting twice the storage for the same price with Surface. I wonder how large the average Windows RT app is?

IJ Reilly
Oct 17, 2012, 10:18 AM
So? Now every tablet probably is a bite ass well, if they capture part of themarket they loose less then they do now.

My point is, for the first time, Microsoft is going into direct competition with their Windows OEM partners by manufacturing the hardware themselves. This shakes up the status quo arrangement between Microsoft and the OEMs that's been in place for 30 years, and that has defined this industry. The levels of irony here are pretty deep, but the principal one is that Microsoft is now adopting Apple's end-to-end strategy. Not so long ago, tech pundits everywhere were urging Apple to abandon that approach.

----------

This is how Microsoft always advertises their products, all smoke and mirrors and no substance.?

Looks like somebody has never seen an iPod commercial.

APlotdevice
Oct 17, 2012, 10:18 AM
There is promise in the Windows RT ecosystem, though. Microsoft will be pushing Metro hard. I read (at Ars Technica, I believe) that Desktop is to Windows 8 what DOS 5.0 was to Windows 3.0. Clearly it will be around for a while longer, but it won't be getting any more significant updates. Microsoft wants all future development to be focused on the Metro interface.

I find the idea of eventually going all metro just insane. Tiled start screens and full screen apps make sense on ~10" display. Not so much on a 21+".

thefourthpope
Oct 17, 2012, 10:24 AM
This is right up there with the new iPod commercials. What does this product do? I can't tell. It's just pop music and dancing bears.

mdelvecchio
Oct 17, 2012, 11:57 AM
Yeah, they are, and they can. As of WP8, all versions of Windows run the same kernel, and use the same programming languages.

Only x86 devices are a little different (as in PCs, laptops, and the Surface Pro), as they're capable of running legacy apps, as well as higher end ones targeted at the desktop alongside the new Metro apps.

the ARM OS on the non-Pro is different than the x86 on the Pro. they cannot run the same software. at a minimum a re-compile of an application's sourcecode will be required, targeting the different OS. that they are both branded and marketed w/ the same name doesnt make them the same.

Retrostarscream
Oct 17, 2012, 12:09 PM
Does anyone know if the surface will be able to run apps side by side as opposed to having separate screens for each ? If so it will be able differentiate itself just enough from the iPad & justify its price points. True multitasking is what productivity bound consumers are waiting for in these tablets.

olowott
Oct 17, 2012, 12:27 PM
Nothing about what i want to pay for

only that it clicks with a keyboard very well.:confused:

not even about the camera
or an app
or the office 2013 app

damn!!

Eidorian
Oct 17, 2012, 12:43 PM
the ARM OS on the non-Pro is different than the x86 on the Pro. they cannot run the same software. at a minimum a re-compile of an application's sourcecode will be required, targeting the different OS. that they are both branded and marketed w/ the same name doesnt make them the same.Anything targeting the Windows Store is required to support x86 and ARM. Tools and checkboxes are provided of course.

Windows 8 is Windows 8 is...

lorkkrue
Oct 17, 2012, 12:59 PM
My "company", where the CTO has a close tie to MS has sent out mass emails last year -NOT to buy iPad due to "uncertainty in the tablet market". And all requests will be denied. We are to wait for a more "certain" tablet to hit the market. I didn't understand the email then. NOW I do. He wanted us to wait for this "surface tablet" -

Mystic386
Oct 17, 2012, 01:50 PM
I don't own any tablet. Seeing the Microsoft ad I just thought the whole thing was naff. It reminded me of the half a bubble off centre performances from Steve Ballmer.The world can always do with a little silly crazy. The ad hit more silly stupid.

The way the cover/keyboard clips in is a nice touch.

For me to buy this product it would have to be;
- real cheap.
- overcome my still strong dislike of MS for the years of customer abuse I suffered with half baked products. (until 18 motnhs ago)
- be functional to the level of the iPad or more.
- assure me that Windows 8 is not a lemon and that customer service will be great.
- run numbers, pages etc because I no longer use any MS programs due to the abuse issue.

I guess hell will have to freeze over or Apple would have to adopt MS's ineptitude in customer service for me to want to leave Apple and if I did leave Apple Samsung and Android already look a damn site more appealing.

Has Steve Ballmer missed the mark and headed another error of judgement. I would bet yes. Time will tell. If he has, will MS finally move this guy on and hire some real talent. What MS has continued to fail at is taught in business 101.

VenusianSky
Oct 17, 2012, 01:59 PM
I find the idea of eventually going all metro just insane. Tiled start screens and full screen apps make sense on ~10" display. Not so much on a 21+".

It is insane and it won't happen anytime soon, if ever. Despite what some people think, apps built for keyboard and mouse won't go away anytime soon. Developers need development tools and businesses need their spreadsheet/databases tools and a touchscreen interface just isn't practical for those tasks.

HatterZero
Oct 17, 2012, 02:03 PM
I plan on buying one, I been playing with windows 8 for months now, not a fan of it on a desktop. I prefer my Apple, but as a tablet I really enjoyed the feeling. I have an iPhone 5 and iMac and Macbook Pro and plan to get an air, but the iPad just feels like a bigger iPhone to me (My opinion). I think this as a web based content device will be fine for me. Ill buy one one release day, but not the keyboard cover since I dont plan on typing on it, ever.

BTW Keyboard cover for iPad, saw someone post that it hasn't been done yet.

http://www.logitech.com/tablet-accessories/keyboard-cases/ultrathin-keyboard-cover

Renzatic
Oct 17, 2012, 02:32 PM
Does anyone know if the surface will be able to run apps side by side as opposed to having separate screens for each ? If so it will be able differentiate itself just enough from the iPad & justify its price points. True multitasking is what productivity bound consumers are waiting for in these tablets.

Yeah, you can run two apps side by side on any device running a resolution higher than (I think) 1280x720. It doesn't split the screen perfectly down the middle. More like it docks one app to 1/3rd of the left or right side of the screen, leaving a 4:3 space for the app on the right. You can drag and drop stuff in between them, and flip which one takes up the majority of the screen fairly easily.

tbrinkma
Oct 17, 2012, 02:44 PM
Inflation and its actually cheaper .

Not sure what this has to do with anything I said. :confused:


Surface has it desktop "cousin" wich is also capable of metro apps.

350million PC sales worldwide a year, 80% MS (conservative estimate) windows 8 so within the year it would have more user then ios has now, and if I include the unlicensed its a lot faster that high.

Yep. Surface has a desktop 'cousin' also capable of 'metro' apps. But, no, they can't share the same apps, and you wouldn't want try running a desktop 'metro' app that was simply cross-compiled for ARM on a Surface, because of the resource availability differences. It would make for a *huge* performance loss in comparison.

So... No idea how that addresses anything I said there, either. :rolleyes:

KPOM
Oct 17, 2012, 02:46 PM
My "company", where the CTO has a close tie to MS has sent out mass emails last year -NOT to buy iPad due to "uncertainty in the tablet market". And all requests will be denied. We are to wait for a more "certain" tablet to hit the market. I didn't understand the email then. NOW I do. He wanted us to wait for this "surface tablet" -

That's what Microsoft is counting on. They are hoping that companies gravitate to them because of the Office support.

tbrinkma
Oct 17, 2012, 02:46 PM
There have been keyboard covers for the iPad for years.

Yes, but not as nicely integrated, and (as others have pointed out), generally speaking they've been less than 'great'. The Surface keyboards are relatively unique, but that also means nobody really knows how they perform yet.

KPOM
Oct 17, 2012, 02:47 PM
According to Microsoft, Windows RT, Office and any other pre-loaded apps take up ~12GB of space. I believe on the iPad ~1GB is used for the OS? So really you're not getting twice the storage for the same price with Surface. I wonder how large the average Windows RT app is?

Good point. I haven't seen that mentioned. I didn't realize Windows RT and Office were that large. I'd have thought Microsoft would streamline them as much as possible. Maybe application size is another reason (apart from competitive advantage) that we haven't seen Office for iOS or Android.

k995
Oct 17, 2012, 02:54 PM
My point is, for the first time, Microsoft is going into direct competition with their Windows OEM partners by manufacturing the hardware themselves. This shakes up the status quo arrangement between Microsoft and the OEMs that's been in place for 30 years, and that has defined this industry.

Not really, the large companies that sell MS products are lenovo, HP,dell all not really active in tablet market

Even the ones that do have tablets acer, asus barely have a foot in the market


The big companies in tablet are apple, samsung and amazon, all of wich barely sell anything of MS.

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=2194017
http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/14/ipad-market-share-all-time-high/


No every sale there is a sale less taken by other manufacturers and OS's.



The levels of irony here are pretty deep, but the principal one is that Microsoft is now adopting Apple's end-to-end strategy. Not so long ago, tech pundits everywhere were urging Apple to abandon that approach.
Not really, MS is pushing the market, its not the sole provider of MS labeled tablets. Big difference then with apple.

----------


Yep. Surface has a desktop 'cousin' also capable of 'metro' apps. But, no, they can't share the same apps, and you wouldn't want try running a desktop 'metro' app that was simply cross-compiled for ARM on a Surface, because of the resource availability differences. It would make for a *huge* performance loss in comparison.

So... No idea how that addresses anything I said there, either. :rolleyes:

Dont know where you get this :

http://www.zdnet.com/with-a-month-to-go-until-windows-8s-launch-2000-plus-windows-store-apps-7000004790/

As of yesterday, September 24, there were 2,188 Windows Store applications available internationally, with 1,593 of those available in the U.S., according to Directions on Microsoft Vice President of Research Wes Miller. There are approximately 150 apps that are available for x86/x64 machines and not ARM, Miller said. In other words, there are about 150 apps in the Windows Store currently that do not work on both x86/x64 (Windows 8) and ARM (Windows RT).

Thats 90+%

FirePhantom
Oct 17, 2012, 03:02 PM
Yep. For me, hearing those clicks, all I could think of was the commercial for the iPad 2 Smart Cover in 2011. :)
The Smart Cover isn't something permanently attached to the iPad which could break off the $500+ device. So, your point is moot.

KPOM
Oct 17, 2012, 03:05 PM
Unfortunately, enterprises will need to buy an extra license to use Office:

Microsoft Home and Student 2013 RT Preview edition installed. Final Office Home & Student version will be installed via Windows Update when available (free download; ISP fees apply). Some features and programs unsupported. Office Home & Student 2013 RT Preview and the final version are not for use in commercial, nonprofit, or revenue generating activities. Commercial license options available (sold separately).

gusping
Oct 17, 2012, 03:07 PM
one of the worse adverts i have ever seen. Nothing about the tablet itself. Nice one MS.....

IJ Reilly
Oct 17, 2012, 03:13 PM
Not really, the large companies that sell MS products are lenovo, HP,dell all not really active in tablet market

Really. Not only are tablets eroding sales of desktops and laptops, the OEMs will be competing directly with Microsoft in this market, something they did not have to do before, ever. I am not the only person to identify this issue. Even Microsoft acknowledges that this new approach could create friction with the OEMs. I think the only way it could avoid causing friction is if the Surface flops.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57481224-75/microsoft-why-yes-our-surface-tablet-could-tick-off-oems/

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/21/acer-is-skeptical-of-surface-tablets/

Krazy Bill
Oct 17, 2012, 03:59 PM
One word for the naysayers...

USB (or is that 3 words? Or 3 letters? :eek:)

This small difference is why I'll consider the Surface to the iPad any day. The Apple walled prison... err, "garden" has gone unchallenged for too long by somebody with deep pockets. (And no, Android doesn't count).

The appeal of a device that is "open" and actually does something useful in the Enterprise segment is quite tempting.

I'm sure the tweeters, face-bookers and bird killers will disagree though. (Surprise).

thekev
Oct 17, 2012, 04:13 PM
Hold up one second........120 BUCKS FOR A FRICKEN TOUCH KEYBOARD THAT UTILIZES SO MANY APPLE PATENTS........WTF!?!?!??!?!

EDIT: Replaced "Violates" with "Utilizes" because maybe thats not the best way to put it.

Are you actually out of your mind? Do you really think you even understand a single patent? Have you ever read through a patent description in detail? Do you know what portions describe what is protected as opposed to possible use cases? If it wasn't for the "edit" note, I would have assumed this was sarcasm. On a side note, Apple and MS are known for cross licensing. This doesn't really indicate whether such a device requires any of Apple's patents, but there was an entire article mentioning potential cross licensing between the two.

DrStern
Oct 17, 2012, 05:25 PM
So basically, if I switch to or being with a Microsoft Surface, I will be 100% guaranteed to dance my pants off.

Thats really the only takeaway I got from that commercial.

Yeah, I'm actually interested in the product for my office, but the commercial did nothing to move my interest level - except maybe down a little, since the ad does not depict the device as a serious tool.