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Rogifan
Oct 17, 2012, 08:23 PM
Microsoft better fix this fast. :eek:

http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/17/3514556/windows-8-vs-windows-rt-surface-confused-microsoft-store-employees



coldmack
Oct 18, 2012, 02:14 AM
That is a great thing, it will keep people at Apple and move others who where on the fence to move to iPad. Then iPad could become really popular and Apple could finally do what people really want and drop Intel for good, by introducing ARM based machines running full OSX!

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 03:10 AM
I've been banging on about this for ages.

Consumers WILL get mislead by ill informed store staff in electronic outlets across the world.

I only have to walk into a PC world or Harvey Normans, hover around the computer sections and within few seconds you can hear sales staff talking utter BS about product A and how it's better than product B and they are just making stiff up, or giving totally inaccurate info.

Windows RT devices & store staff will fool consumers into thinking because it shares the nae Windows and because on a demonstration booth it looks identical, that they are getting a full 'Windows' experience.

People then thnk it will be compatible with all their existing hardware (printers/scanners) and software. They are going to be in for quite the disappointing realisation.


Now, it's not news that technology salesmen aren't generally known for product knowledge, just as Windows RT's lack of backwards compatibility wasn't news to all. Admittedly, the void between Windows 8 and Windows RT would be difficult even for seasoned technology vets to explain, much less your average retail employee. The operating systems look and feel so alike, and the reasons behind the lack of legacy apps are so technical that consumers might tune out. Even if Microsoft said "it doesn't run legacy apps" outright to every single buyer, would they understand what that meant?

Oohara
Oct 18, 2012, 06:06 AM
Yeah it sounds like this might lead to quite a facepalm situation for MS indeed. Especially with the keyboard/touch covers out at the same time, I can see how many would be lured into thinking that a Surface RT with a keyboard cover is a pretty good replacement for their Windows laptop.

And then second wave of fail will come when people realize that the touch/keyboard covers themselves are actually appaling to type on. I was really rooting for MS here to get some needed competition for Apple, but it feels like they've rushed this whole thing a bit.

maflynn
Oct 18, 2012, 06:48 AM
Consumers WILL get mislead by ill informed store staff in electronic outlets across the world.

I'm not so sure - they buy a Windows RT tablet thinking that there's no difference. They have a handful of apps that they need to run - usually office and the like. They're really not going to notice a difference in this case.

Sure there's compatibility issues with the RT flavor but given how consumers will use tablets I believe that issue is rather moot.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 07:02 AM
I'm not so sure - they buy a Windows RT tablet thinking that there's no difference. They have a handful of apps that they need to run - usually office and the like. They're really not going to notice a difference in this case.

Sure there's compatibility issues with the RT flavor but given how consumers will use tablets I believe that issue is rather moot.

The problem is that these are not being marketed as 'just tablets' in the same sense that iPad and Android tablets are. A person looking at an iOS or Android tablet can clearly see they are not computers.



These are being portrayed more like computers, especially when a person walks into a store, sees a row of laptops running Windows 8 and then they see a row of touchscreen desktops running windows 8, then they see a range of TABLETS with Atom (cough netbooks) or i3-i5-i7 running windows 8 with promise of full windows experience, then they see another set of Tablets that look identical to the other tablets and laptop / desktop devices; but this time they are running Windows RT that from the same quick hands-on in store all of the devices look and feel/behave the same, they are going to think they are ALL the same thing..... And who can blame them....

Windows RT Tablets look and act like Windows 8 Tablets. So you can't just assume consumers expectations are different, and that they will know the difference between them to even tailor those expectations.

What so this tablet I can install my software, but this tablet that looks identical I cant ?

It's messy.... not for the tech savvy, but for general consumer and parents buying computers for their kids / teens then yes.. it's a mess, and ill informed shop staff will only add to that mess.

maflynn
Oct 18, 2012, 07:06 AM
Windows RT Tablets look and act like Windows 8 Tablets. So you can't just assume consumers expectations are different, and that they will know the difference between them to even tailor those expectations.

I believe consumers, particularly windows users are accustomed to buying/upgrading their apps when they either buy a new computer or upgrade to a new OS. To that end, they'll not be incredibly surprised that any windows apps that they currently have won't work. What mitigates this issue is the inability to actually load those apps, i.e. no optical drive. They'll have to go to the app store to purchase and use the apps. So in the end they'll have what they need and generally won't notice too much difference.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 07:12 AM
I believe consumers, particularly windows users are accustomed to buying/upgrading their apps when they either buy a new computer or upgrade to a new OS.

This has not been my experience. I work for a lot of National Schools and sort out a lot of computers here locally and rarely do they spend more money on software than they have to, so if they can get a new computer but run the same office 2003, etc.. software, they are happy to do so.


Plus your forgetting another issue, peripherals. People don't go out and buy a new set of peripherals every-time they change OS or get a new computer. They are often using same printers / scanners etc... Now explain to them that they will never be able to use them in this tablet A, but they can in this tablet B despite them looking identical...

Rogifan
Oct 18, 2012, 07:16 AM
Are there 3rd party keyboards that will work with Surface or do you have to use either the touch cover or type cover?

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 07:22 AM
Are there 3rd party keyboards that will work with Surface or do you have to use either the touch cover or type cover?

Supports bluetooth, and USB keyboards so in theory should be ok in that regard.

maflynn
Oct 18, 2012, 07:23 AM
This has not been my experience. I work for a lot of National Schools and sort out a lot of computers here locally and rarely do they spend more money on software than they have to, so if they can get a new computer but run the same office 2003, etc.. software, they are happy to do so. It has been mine and that's not from a family member buying/upgrading but also as one who used to work in computer stores.


Plus your forgetting another issue, peripherals. People don't go out and buy a new set of peripherals every-time they change OS or get a new computer. They are often using same printers / scanners etc... Now explain to them that they will never be able to use them in this tablet A, but they can in this tablet B despite them looking identical...
I'm not seeing this as a problem - does any tablet (iPad, Nexus, surface) have traditional ports to hook up to peripherals? I'd be surprised that by and large many consumers will be upset that the Surface will not hook directly up to their scanner or printer, especially since no tablet (that I'm aware of) is capable of doing this.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 07:25 AM
I'm not seeing this as a problem - does the (any) tablet have traditional ports to hook up to peripherals? I'd be surprised that by and large many consumers will be upset at the Surface will not hook directly up to their scanner or printer, especially since no tablet (that I'm aware of) is capable of doing this.

Because your continually seeing a clear distinction between tablet and laptop/desktop.

My point hinges on the fact that Windows RT tablets are not distinct enough from Windows 8 tablets laptops & desktops, which will allow this.

maflynn
Oct 18, 2012, 07:27 AM
I think you're trying to shoehorn the MS tablet into the same category as a desktop and that's just not the case.

True with the X86 version of the surface you can run desktop apps and that's a huge plus, the RT will have the ability to run office and other MS apps but its still a tablet and most people understand that, they're not going to expect tablets to have the same capabilities, expandability and features of a desktop computer

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 07:33 AM
I think you're trying to shoehorn the MS tablet into the same category as a desktop and that's just not the case.

True with the X86 version of the surface you can run desktop apps and that's a huge plus, the RT will have the ability to run office and other MS apps but its still a tablet and most people understand that, they're not going to expect tablets to have the same capabilities, expandability and features of a desktop computer

No I'm not shoehorning, microsoft is, that's my point.

If you have two tablets, both looking identical, one runs full windows, one doesn't but both look the same in store, how am I the one confusing the devices ?


The fact they are making these tablets that do offer the full desktop experiences is what differentiates them from other tablet makers and you can bet your bottom dollar that what sales staff push to the consumer.

If they really wanted consumers to know they were different and there was no contradiction between a tablet and a desktop/laptop experience, then there would be NO need for Surface Pro or other tablets running windows 8 pro.

Rogifan
Oct 18, 2012, 08:38 AM
Supports bluetooth, and USB keyboards so in theory should be ok in that regard.

Hmm...I haven't heard MS say anything about it (obviously they want you to purchase their $120 keyboard). If 3rd party keyboards work I can see a lot of people using that option as I'm sure they'll be cheaper.

aneftp
Oct 18, 2012, 10:04 AM
Avoid any Microsoft Version 1 product.

Usually takes Microsoft 3 tries to get a product done the correct way.

Technarchy
Oct 18, 2012, 01:21 PM
I've been saying this is going to be a problem for months.

The Windows legacy is huge and people will expect their gadgets and software to run on RT because Microsoft failed to make a clearer distinction between the two.

They should have just called it Surface OS and ran it on phones and tablets in the same way iOS runs on phones and tablets.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 01:57 PM
For once, I actually kind agree with you, Technarchy. I understand that MS wants to blur the line between tablets and PCs, but they might've gone a bit too far in this regard. When people see the Windows name, they expect it to be capable of everything Windows can do. When they get RT, they're going to see it's basically another platform running an entirely new set of software.

Plus how can they call it Windows when it doesn't have any windows in it? Should've called it Vinyl Siding or something.

While I don't think it's gonna be the huge panic some people are making it out to be, I do think there is going to be some confusion going on. Considering the future of the line relies on a lot of peoples good first impression, this is a problem that could've been easily avoided just by calling it something else right now, then bringing them together later once MS gets a little more traction.

coldmack
Oct 18, 2012, 04:09 PM
Because your continually seeing a clear distinction between tablet and laptop/desktop.

My point hinges on the fact that Windows RT tablets are not distinct enough from Windows 8 tablets laptops & desktops, which will allow this.

I think in some ways there are since many off the full 8 devices being Atom :`-( or i Core :`-( come with an active digitzer option, and in the case of some of the i core devices larger screens(largest RT device is still the Surface at 10.6", while many full 8 devices are 11.6in).

----------

Avoid any Microsoft Version 1 product.

Usually takes Microsoft 3000 tries to get a product done the correct way.

Fixed.

FloatingBones
Oct 18, 2012, 04:16 PM
I'm not so sure - they buy a Windows RT tablet thinking that there's no difference. They have a handful of apps that they need to run - usually office and the like. They're really not going to notice a difference in this case.

Sure there's compatibility issues with the RT flavor but given how consumers will use tablets I believe that issue is rather moot.

Based on Paul Thurott's preview (http://www.winsupersite.com/article/office-2013-beta2/office-2013-home-student-2013-rt-preview-144542) it seems to be a pretty full feature set (although I haven't explicitly seen redlining mentioned in any feature list). However, one should note that MS is gunning to extract more money for Office; this version is only licensed for non-commercial use. Note the comment chain in this article (http://www.winsupersite.com/blog/supersite-blog-39/office-2013-beta2/microsoft-relax-office-2013-rt-work-144541): many business users will already have a license and other business users will just deliberately cheat. But make no mistake: MS is definitely expecting to get more $$$ from commercial users.

SlCKB0Y
Oct 18, 2012, 09:43 PM
but its still a tablet and most people understand that,

Except unless it is a Windows 8 tablet which CAN run desktop applications.

You are totally missing the point. It is going to be a marketing nightmare for Microsoft to effectively communicate the differences between Windows 8 tablets and Windows RT tablets.

sineplex
Oct 18, 2012, 11:34 PM
RT will be a flop. It's too late to the market and Surface Pro is just another low powered ultrabook with floppy keyboard. 2 years later RT will be killed off and super slim touch screen ultrabook / tablet hybrids will be in the $500 range. RT is a stop gap without a future. You're stuck in a walled garden like an iPad and have to purchase apps all over again from a bare windows store. . . word documents with have compatibility issues with other versions of word like we've come to expect and you won't be able to run macros. I can see a fire sale already in the next 12-24 months. You're getting a 2010 product at a 2010 price. Windows RT (Rotten Trash) ;)

OSMac
Oct 19, 2012, 04:26 AM
RT will be a flop. It's too late to the market and Surface Pro is just another low powered ultrabook with floppy keyboard. 2 years later RT will be killed off and super slim touch screen ultrabook / tablet hybrids will be in the $500 range. RT is a stop gap without a future. You're stuck in a walled garden like an iPad and have to purchase apps all over again from a bare windows store. . . word documents with have compatibility issues with other versions of word like we've come to expect and you won't be able to run macros. I can see a fire sale already in the next 12-24 months. You're getting a 2010 product at a 2010 price. Windows RT (Rotten Trash) ;)

Might be but not sure how its a 2010 product, isn't the processor a Tegra 3 still the current nVidia one used in many Android devices?

A good question is why did MS go with a ARM based OS and device at all?
Samsung, Acer, etc., are building Atom based win8 tablets that are the same cost, fanless with even a longer battery life and they run all the old windows software as well?

sineplex
Oct 19, 2012, 06:08 AM
Might be but not sure how its a 2010 product, isn't the processor a Tegra 3 still the current nVidia one used in many Android devices?

because they are 2.5 years behind the ball. the price is too high, they're just starting the windows apstore for tablets, there's no LTE and the screen resolution is close to the ipad2. It's a gimped closed system. which looks like windows 8 but isn't. There's no GPS, no LTE etc.


A good question is why did MS go with a ARM based OS and device at all?
Samsung, Acer, etc., are building Atom based win8 tablets that are the same cost, fanless with even a longer battery life and they run all the old windows software as well?
So you have to pay the overlords $99 for the privilege of developing a "Metro" app" Microsoft is trying to have more control and they can create they're own walled garden like Apple.

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 07:15 AM
Except unless it is a Windows 8 tablet which CAN run desktop applications.

You are totally missing the point. It is going to be a marketing nightmare for Microsoft to effectively communicate the differences between Windows 8 tablets and Windows RT tablets.
Why? 1 can run metro apps the other all apps . Does apple have to explain the difference between an ipad and a macbook?

MacRumorUser
Oct 19, 2012, 07:39 AM
Why? 1 can run metro apps the other all apps . Does apple have to explain the difference between an ipad and a macbook?

But a macbook's OS and an iPads OS look totally different when you see them.

A consumer going into a store and seeing two devices both displaying same metro interface, makes the two devices look the same. Why would they automatically assume there was a difference if superficially what they are looking at seems identical.

roadbloc
Oct 19, 2012, 07:45 AM
What differences are they really? Windows 8 has an explorer app and runs on intel chips, Windows RT lacks the explorer app and runs on ARM chips. I mean, if you don't understand that one will let you run PC + Tablet apps and the other will only let you run tablet apps, I don't think you should be using any electronic device. It isn't rocket science, in fact, when compared to the many editions of Vista there was, Windows 8 has proven to be even simpler than Windows 7 when it comes to telling the difference between editions.

Not much to get confused over there. Shame they've sold out, I really wanted an RT Surface, looks like I'm going to have to wait.

OSMac
Oct 19, 2012, 07:45 AM
Why? 1 can run metro apps the other all apps . Does apple have to explain the difference between an ipad and a macbook?

MS choose to call it 'Windows' RT. Windows to people implies it can run existing windows programs. They also choose to have it's user interface look exactly like the full windows 8 that runs existing programs.

Even major retailers like Futureshop and Bestbuy in Canada are confused,
and posting "Windows 8" on RT device listings.

Heres a listing for a full Windows 8 device
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/acer-acer-10-1-64gb-iconia-tablet-with-wi-fi-w510-1431-silver-iconiaw510-1431/10225573.aspx?path=f61d5420226eea35721e048cbc699c7den02

Heres one for a limited RT device
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/asus-asus-10-1-32gb-vivotab-tablet-with-wi-fi-tf600t-b1-gr-cb-grey-tf600t-b1-gr-cb/10227479.aspx?path=5f728b694bcb043ce139e0bd3c3e862den02


Apple never in any way suggested OSX programs would run on the iPad.
The UI's are competely different looking, and have different names.

Krazy Bill
Oct 19, 2012, 09:22 AM
That is a great thing, it will keep people at Apple and move others who where on the fence to move to iPad. Then iPad could become really popular and Apple could finally do what people really want and drop Intel for good, by introducing ARM based machines running full OSX!Holy crap. OSX on an ARM machine gets 2 up votes? :eek:

The irony is of course, the 3 of you are probably right. :( 20 hour battery life sounds good but I can think of better things to use that juice for other than browsing, tweeting and bird-killing.

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 10:04 AM
MS choose to call it 'Windows' RT. Windows to people implies it can run existing windows programs. They also choose to have it's user interface look exactly like the full windows 8 that runs existing programs.

Even major retailers like Futureshop and Bestbuy in Canada are confused,
and posting "Windows 8" on RT device listings.

Heres a listing for a full Windows 8 device
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/acer-acer-10-1-64gb-iconia-tablet-with-wi-fi-w510-1431-silver-iconiaw510-1431/10225573.aspx?path=f61d5420226eea35721e048cbc699c7den02

Heres one for a limited RT device
http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/asus-asus-10-1-32gb-vivotab-tablet-with-wi-fi-tf600t-b1-gr-cb-grey-tf600t-b1-gr-cb/10227479.aspx?path=5f728b694bcb043ce139e0bd3c3e862den02


Apple never in any way suggested OSX programs would run on the iPad.
The UI's are competely different looking, and have different names.

First of all there are already different windows versions, 32/64 bit for example also limits certain programs, is it an issue? No because almost all programs are comiled for the both.

So are the windows apps: 95% runs on both versions .

You seem to want windows to fail (can think of any reason actually why you ould want that) and seem to be making up "bad thins that might happen"

----------

But a macbook's OS and an iPads OS look totally different when you see them.
So?

Here on both you can run metro apps .



A consumer going into a store and seeing two devices both displaying same metro interface, makes the two devices look the same. Why would they automatically assume there was a difference if superficially what they are looking at seems identical.

You can say the same about an iphone and an ipod touch, they look virtually the same.

OSMac
Oct 19, 2012, 10:19 AM
First of all there are already different windows versions, 32/64 bit for example also limits certain programs, is it an issue? No because almost all programs are comiled for the both.

So are the windows apps: 95% runs on both versions .

You seem to want windows to fail (can think of any reason actually why you ould want that) and seem to be making up "bad thins that might happen"

----------


So?

Here on both you can run metro apps .



You can say the same about an iphone and an ipod touch, they look virtually the same.

100% of existing Windows 7 programs do not run on RT, thats the issue .

Call it Surface RT, get the word out to vendors not to post Windows 8 in ads for RT devices. Forget the spots with dancing kids, run a spot to educate consumers on why giving up running existing windows programs worth the trade off for RT ... if it is.

MacRumorUser
Oct 19, 2012, 10:51 AM
100% of existing Windows 7 programs do not run on RT, thats the issue .

Call it Surface RT, get the word out to vendors not to post Windows 8 in ads for RT devices. Forget the spots with dancing kids, run a spot to educate consumers on why giving up running existing windows programs worth the trade off for RT if it is.

There's no point trying to explain, he's stuck in his viewpoint and can not objectively see what we and many other analysts are actually saying.

thejadedmonkey
Oct 19, 2012, 10:56 AM
One runs Windows 8 Pro and has backwards compatability between Windows 8 (metro) apps and Windows 7 apps.

The other runs Windows 8, and doesn't have backwards compatability.

It's not difficult.

MacRumorUser
Oct 19, 2012, 11:01 AM
One runs Windows 8 Pro and has backwards compatability between Windows 8 (metro) apps and Windows 7 apps.

The other runs Windows 8, and doesn't have backwards compatability.

It's not difficult.


The other doesn't run Windows 8, it runs Windows RT... ;)

So obviously it's a little more difficult than you assert.



Windows 8 & Windows 8 pro are not Windows RT.

Night Spring
Oct 19, 2012, 11:33 AM
Windows 8 & Windows 8 pro are not Windows RT.

Wait, there's a Windows 8 Pro? How does that differ from plain Win8? :confused:

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 11:36 AM
The other doesn't run Windows 8, it runs Windows RT... ;)

So obviously it's a little more difficult than you assert.



Windows 8 & Windows 8 pro are not Windows RT.

Its still windows 8

Thats like saying android for panasonic eluga or Ainovo Novo 7 isnt android .

----------

100% of existing Windows 7 programs do not run on RT, thats the issue .

So?

OSX programs dont run on iOS even if they share a lot , do you think people try to install OSX apps?


Call it Surface RT, get the word out to vendors not to post Windows 8 in ads for RT devices. Forget the spots with dancing kids, run a spot to educate consumers on why giving up running existing windows programs worth the trade off for RT ... if it is.

Its still windows 8 and you can still use apps across devices.

Night Spring
Oct 19, 2012, 11:44 AM
Its still windows 8

Thats like saying android for panasonic eluga or Ainovo Novo 7 isnt android .

Bad example. Better example would be, does the Kindle Fire run Android? The Fire does run on a variant of Android, but if someone bought the Fire and expected to be able to run the apps he bought for his Galaxy phone on it, he'd be disappointed.

So with Windows RT, if someone buys it, and expects to run the Word 2007 he bought for his Dell laptop on it, it wouldn't run.

While if someone bought a Win 8 machine, then that copy of Word 2007 would run.

So, Win 8 and Win RT... are they the same? Not if you want to run Word 2007! Or even Word 2010, for that matter.

OSX programs dont run on iOS even if they share a lot , do you think people try to install OSX apps?

Yes, they share a lot, but they don't look identical. Win 8 and Win RT look exactly the same.

MacRumorUser
Oct 19, 2012, 12:02 PM
Wait, there's a Windows 8 Pro? How does that differ from plain Win8? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions

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Yes, they share a lot, but they don't look identical. Win 8 and Win RT look exactly the same.

The point he misses every time.

Night Spring
Oct 19, 2012, 12:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_8_editions

Thanks, that is actually very informative!

The point he misses every time.

I know, but I couldn't resist making one more attempt! Oh, well...

VFC
Oct 19, 2012, 03:47 PM
100% of existing Windows 7 programs do not run on RT, thats the issue .

Call it Surface RT, get the word out to vendors not to post Windows 8 in ads for RT devices. Forget the spots with dancing kids, run a spot to educate consumers on why giving up running existing windows programs worth the trade off for RT ... if it is.

What's most important to me is Office file compatibility. RT comes with a free copy of MS Office (that would be the most costly s/w to repurchase). All my Office documents (Word, Excel, Power Point) that I created on my XP machine at work will be compatible with the RT, and vice-versa.

OSMac
Oct 19, 2012, 04:36 PM
What's most important to me is Office file compatibility. RT comes with a free copy of MS Office (that would be the most costly s/w to repurchase). All my Office documents (Word, Excel, Power Point) that I created on my XP machine at work will be compatible with the RT, and vice-versa.

Unless they have macros or mismatched fonts, not sure how font installation will work with RT or if its even possible.

But thats a fair reason your willing to accept the lack of running windows 7 programs for a copy of Office RT, just remember the Office RT license is for home and student use only...

MacRumorUser
Oct 19, 2012, 04:45 PM
What's most important to me is Office file compatibility. RT comes with a free copy of MS Office (that would be the most costly s/w to repurchase). All my Office documents (Word, Excel, Power Point) that I created on my XP machine at work will be compatible with the RT, and vice-versa.

Do you use macros? If so they won't be compatible. Also Office 2010 trial with free Starter version has been bundled free on laptops for a good while now.

----------

Unless they have macros or mismatched fonts, not sure how font installation will work with RT or if its even possible.

But thats a fair reason your willing to accept the lack of running windows 7 programs for a copy of Office RT, just remember the Office RT license is for home and student use only...

Yep this is true, see below..

There are three serious caveats to consider, though.

1. Not for Commercial Use
Paul Thurrott, a prominent expert on Windows, pointed out that the licence for Office 2013 Home & Student 2013 RT allows only for non-commercial use just like the PC version. That means that even though the Surface RT tablet comes with the Office apps pre-installed, the tablet cant actually be used for business productivity out of the box.

Thurrott explains that it isn't entirely true that the Office 2013 Home & Student 2013 RT apps can't be used for business. Microsoft has clarified that customers simply need to buy the standard Office 2013 licence, and that allows them to also legally use the Office RT apps for commercial use.

That is a workaround, but basically means the Office RT apps that come pre-installed can only be used for business productivity if you also subscribe to Office 365, or invest additional money to buy the full PC version as well.

Renzatic
Oct 19, 2012, 04:53 PM
Do you use macros? If so they won't be compatible.

Are you sure? I've heard the RT rev is Office front to back, and offers everything the x86 version does, sans plugin compatibility.

MacRumorUser
Oct 19, 2012, 05:03 PM
Are you sure? I've heard the RT rev is Office front to back, and offers everything the x86 version does, sans plugin compatibility.

No, it's not compatible with macros and a lot more...

Verge
To optimize for Windows RT, Microsoft has made the decision to remove a number of features from its Office 2013 RT release to ensure battery life and reliability are not impacted on tablet devices. Macros, third-party add-ins, and VBA support will all be dropped from the Office 2013 RT edition, and one source says a "small number" of other features have also been removed

Engadget
As for features, Office 2013 RT will not include Macro or add-in support, and certain legacy features such as older media formats has also been removed. Microsoft says that certain email features will not be supported as Windows RT does not include support for an Office RT version of Outlook. Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and OneNote 2013 RT versions will all be part of Windows RT tablets that ship from October 26th. Data model support, recording narrations, and searching embedded audio / video file support has also been dropped from the Office 2013 RT edition.


And for a full list of stuff removed directly from the horses mouth so to speak; Microsoft... This is quite an extensive list....

What Office Home & Student 2013 features are unavailable in Office Home & Student 2013 RT?

Across multiple applications
Macros, Add-Ins, Forms, and Custom Programs (Word, Excel, PowerPoint)
In other versions of Office you or a software developer can use tools such as Visual Basic for Applications (VBA) to write and run macros and other custom programs in Office. VBA is not available for the applications in Office Home & Student 2013 RT.

To use macros, add-ins, forms with custom code, or other custom programs in Office documents, you need a version of Office other than Office Home & Student 2013 RT on a computer or tablet not powered by Windows RT. Other versions of Office cannot be installed on Windows RT devices. For example, Office Home & Student 2013 and Office Professional 2013 support these features but cannot be installed on Windows RT devices.
If you already use macros, add-ins, InfoPath forms with custom programs, or other custom programs in your PC or Mac version of Office, you will not be able to use them in Office Home & Student 2013 RT.


Send Email Features (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneNote)
Your Windows RT tablet does not support Outlook or other desktop email applications such as Mozilla Thunderbird or Opera. Due to this, certain email features available for Office documents in other Office versions are not supported in Office Home & Student 2013 RT:
"Send as … (attachment)" features in the Office Backstage view
Word mail merge features related to email
Sending email links to share slides using the PowerPoint Broadcast Slide Show button on the Slide Show tab
OneNote email share options and email-related options in the Tools/Options menu
Many email-related buttons in the Office Ribbon and Quick Assist Toolbar
Instead, you can open your Windows RT email app or use another email app that may be available from the Windows Store, manually create an email message and attach your document to it.
SkyDrive Sync Integration (Word, Excel, PowerPoint)

Office Home & Student 2013 RT does not support automatic synchronization between personal SkyDrive documents and your local disk. Instead, you can access SkyDrive through the Office Backstage view and use the Open or Save commands to open or save your documents.
Equation Editor 3.0 (Word, Excel, PowerPoint)

Office Home & Student 2013 RT does not support editing equations written with Equation Editor, which was used in older versions of Office. You’ll still be able to view equations written with Equation Editor, but you cannot edit them. An improved feature to make it easier to write and edit equations was introduced in Office 2007 and is included in Office Home & Student 2013 RT. You can find it in the Insert toolbar under Symbols.

Lync File Download
Microsoft Lync is not included on Windows RT devices. As a result the “Allow Lync File Download” command is disabled and files/attachments from Lync meetings cannot be downloaded into OneNote. To use the Lync File Download feature, you need Office 365 Small Business Premium, a version of Office that includes the Lync application on a computer or tablet not powered by Windows RT. Other versions of Office cannot be installed on Windows RT devices.

Word only
Grammar checking for certain language versions of Office
The grammar checking /style checking feature in Word 2013 RT is available for the following languages only: English, French, German, Spanish, Arabic, Danish, Italian, Norwegian Bokmal, Portuguese – Brazilian, Russian, Japanese, Chinese – Simplified, Chinese –Traditional and Korean. Spell checking and other proofing components are available for more languages.
Grammar / style checkers for some of these languages were not ready in time for the preview edition, but will be included in the final edition of Word 2013 RT.

Excel only
Data Models
Excel 2013 RT does not support creating a Data Model. You can create traditional PivotTables, QueryTables and Pivot Charts. To create a Data Model, use a version of Office other than Office Home & Student 2013 RT on a computer or tablet not powered by Windows RT. Other versions of Office cannot be installed on Windows RT devices. For example, Office Home & Student 2013 and Office Professional 2013 support this feature but cannot be installed on Windows RT devices.

PowerPoint only
Slide Library ActiveX Control
PowerPoint 2013 RT does not support the SharePoint Slide Library toolbar for slide library related actions (insert/upload/etc.) Instead, you can use the Slide Reuse pane, which you can find at Home Tab -> New Slide -> Reuse Slides.

Legacy Media Formats in PowerPoint
PowerPoint 2013 RT does not support certain legacy media formats. These older formats will not play, transcode, compress, or be included when exporting a presentation to video. It is likely that other applications on Windows RT devices will be unable to support these legacy media formats.
Instead of using legacy media formats, you should use modern media formats such as H.264 and Advanced Audio Coding (AAC), which PowerPoint 2013 RT supports. You can convert to modern media formats through the Optimize for Compatibility feature found in the Backstage view of PowerPoint 2010 or non-RT versions of
PowerPoint 2013.
PowerPoint Flash Video Playback
In PowerPoint 2013 RT you will not be able to insert or play back videos from online sites that use video designed for the Adobe Flash Player.
Recording Narrations
You will not be able to use the Record Narrations feature in PowerPoint 2013 RT.

OneNote only
Audio and video recording
Recording audio/video notes from inside OneNote 2013 RT is not supported. Instead, you can record audio or video with other software, then insert it through Insert → File to add onto the OneNote page.
Import through scanner
Importing a printed document or picture into OneNote 2013 RT through an attached scanner is not supported. Instead, you can scan images through another program (for example, the default scanning app in Windows RT or another scanning app you download from the Windows Store), then import the images into OneNote.
Audio & video search
Searching for words appearing in an embedded audio or video file is not supported in OneNote 2013 RT.


So you still think it has a full feature set ? ;) just more confusion to add to the already confusing scenario.

Renzatic
Oct 19, 2012, 05:34 PM
So you still think it has a full feature set ? ;) just more confusion to add to the already confusing scenario.

That's a...uh...fairly extensive list. Office RT is definitely the student and home edition. Those cuts make it nearly unusable for anything else beyond.

Then again, anything else beyond is the market the Pro is aimed at, so it's at least semi-justifiable.

SlCKB0Y
Oct 19, 2012, 07:18 PM
Why? 1 can run metro apps the other all apps . Does apple have to explain the difference between an ipad and a macbook?

1. Desktop Mac OS X does not include the iOS touch interface and does not default to it like Windows 8 does.
2. Apple did not make a full Mac OS X tablet that looks pretty much the same as the iPad but with the ability to run desktop applications.
3. Apple did not brand the iPad as running Mac OS X.
4. From even before it was released there was no confusion as to the capabilities of the iPad (I remember the media calling it "a big iPod touch".

sineplex
Oct 20, 2012, 02:04 AM
That's a...uh...fairly extensive list. Office RT is definitely the student and home edition. Those cuts make it nearly unusable for anything else beyond.

Then again, anything else beyond is the market the Pro is aimed at, so it's at least semi-justifiable.

yup. great for students. $600bux :eek:

k995
Oct 20, 2012, 03:48 AM
Bad example. Better example would be, does the Kindle Fire run Android? The Fire does run on a variant of Android, but if someone bought the Fire and expected to be able to run the apps he bought for his Galaxy phone on it, he'd be disappointed.
The difference is in hardware, the fire can be changed to run everything .


So with Windows RT, if someone buys it, and expects to run the Word 2007 he bought for his Dell laptop on it, it wouldn't run.

Word is included and again do people expect to run OSX software on an ipad?

Yu are saying because they are simular people are' too stupid to recognize the difference .

Could make a joke about apple users here.

VFC
Oct 20, 2012, 08:10 AM
Apple has been working some of the iOS apps into OSX. However, MS beat them to the punch with a totally integrated Legacy/Touch-Tablet OS. Now Apple will be unable to release the same type of OS, on say a touch-retina-MB Air, or MS will take them to court.

Night Spring
Oct 20, 2012, 10:31 AM
Word is included and again do people expect to run OSX software on an ipad?

Some people may want to run 2007 instead of the version that comes with RT. More important, they may have other old Windows software that does not come with RT that they want to use. It's not the same as OS X not running on iPads, because Apple never made tablets that run OS X. What if Apple made an "iPad Pro" that did run OS X, but continued selling regular iPads that only run iOS? And the Pro and regular iPads looked exactly alike, until you tried to run OS X software on it?

kane4fire
Oct 20, 2012, 07:28 PM
Some people may want to run 2007 instead of the version that comes with RT. More important, they may have other old Windows software that does not come with RT that they want to use. It's not the same as OS X not running on iPads, because Apple never made tablets that run OS X. What if Apple made an "iPad Pro" that did run OS X, but continued selling regular iPads that only run iOS? And the Pro and regular iPads looked exactly alike, until you tried to run OS X software on it?


The point of using an old version of Office is a silly one. The number of people who would actually do that is so miniscule, I doubt it would even be above 5%. But you're right, it should be a lot easier to figure out what runs on what, before you even touch one, and the two looking alike doesn't help.

I spent a while myself trying to figure it out so I made a chart to make it easier for anyone else:
http://rashedtalukder.com/images/stories/articles/microsoft_surface_pro_rt_program_compatibility.jpg

Source: http://rashedtalukder.com/index.php/news/important/70-surface-rt-vs-pro-avoid-confusion-what-works

k995
Oct 21, 2012, 03:21 AM
Some people may want to run 2007 instead of the version that comes with RT.
Sure and some probably want the OSX version of numbers on an ipad.

The 2 persons who actually would want that have to buy the pro version then.



More important, they may have other old Windows software that does not come with RT that they want to use.
If there is a metro app then there is no problem.



It's not the same as OS X not running on iPads, because Apple never made tablets that run OS X. What if Apple made an "iPad Pro" that did run OS X, but continued selling regular iPads that only run iOS? And the Pro and regular iPads looked exactly alike, until you tried to run OS X software on it?

Again with the looks , again the difference is you think people are too stupid to realise there is a difference, I think the very vast mayority wll not make that mistake.

MacRumorUser
Oct 21, 2012, 05:45 AM
Again with the looks , again the difference is you think people are too stupid to realise there is a difference, I think the very vast mayority wll not make that mistake.

Analysts, bloggers, and those generally in the technology business all disagree with you and they do see the probable confusion between RT & Windows 8/Pro as a genuine issue/threat.

But of course.... you know better than the myriad of voices all echoing the same concern.

----------


I spent a while myself trying to figure it out so I made a chart to make it easier for anyone else:
http://rashedtalukder.com/images/stories/articles/microsoft_surface_pro_rt_program_compatibility.jpg


Actually not all App Store applications/games will work on Windows RT so your chart is off a little. There will be a number of current and future PC titles that will now also be distributed via the App store, that are still not capable of running on the Arm architecture or that still require access to the desktop environment. So it's certainly not as clear cut as your chart makes it seem.

However those applications that don't work on RT devices won't appear in the App store on RT to avoid the prospect of RT users purchasing applications they can't utilise, but it still does mean not all Apps on the App store will be available for RT devices.

ozaz
Oct 21, 2012, 06:12 AM
The consumer confusion problem is entirely in the branding. WTH is Windows RT going to mean to the majority of people?

They can't drop Windows from the name because it is too valuable a brand, but they should have branded Windows RT as Windows 8 Modern and Windows 8 as Windows 8 Modern+Legacy.

That would put the issue of lack of support for legacy software and peripherals in Windows RT right at the forefront of consumer decision making and force store staff to understand what it meant.

paulsalter
Oct 21, 2012, 06:31 AM
IMO, i dont see this as being confusing at all for people

I have windows XP/Vista/7 at home on different machines

I dont buy an app that way it's for windows 7 and expect it to work on XP and then scream that it's confusing (all versions have the label Windows)

If I see an app that says Surface RT I don't assume it works on Pro and vice versa, I buy an app that says its for the version I have

If I see an app that says i requires Mountain Lion I dont buy it and scream when it doesn't work on Lion, should I really just look that it says OS X and assume it works on all versions

Is the population so stupid that they don't lack any common sense to check things out

Irishman
Oct 21, 2012, 08:43 AM
I think you're trying to shoehorn the MS tablet into the same category as a desktop and that's just not the case.

True with the X86 version of the surface you can run desktop apps and that's a huge plus, the RT will have the ability to run office and other MS apps but its still a tablet and most people understand that, they're not going to expect tablets to have the same capabilities, expandability and features of a desktop computer

And just how will consumers understand that??

Technarchy
Oct 21, 2012, 08:48 AM
The consumer confusion problem is entirely in the branding. WTH is Windows RT going to mean to the majority of people?

They can't drop Windows from the name because it is too valuable a brand, but they should have branded Windows RT as Windows 8 Modern and Windows 8 as Windows 8 Modern+Legacy.

That would put the issue of lack of support for legacy software and peripherals in Windows RT right at the forefront of consumer decision making and force store staff to understand what it meant.

It is 100% branding issue. The tablet and phone OS should not have been called Windows at all, or Metro.

Had MSFT called it Surface OS it would have alleviated the issued. And I would debate the value of the Windows brand outside of desktops and laptops.

ozaz
Oct 21, 2012, 09:22 AM
It is 100% branding issue. The tablet and phone OS should not have been called Windows at all, or Metro.

Had MSFT called it Surface OS it would have alleviated the issued. And I would debate the value of the Windows brand outside of desktops and laptops.

The issue I see with that is that it does not play to one of the key strengths of Windows 8/RT relative to OS X/iOS. That is that the majority of Windows store apps will run on both desktop and tablet devices. So, in general when you buy a Windows store app on your Win RT tablet, it will also work on your Windows 8 desktop, and vice versa. Also, I don't know if RT will always necessarily be restricted to tablets. AFAIK there will be nothing to stop a OEM from using Windows RT in desktops and laptops so there is not a clear tablet/desktop OS distinction.

So in my opinion including Windows in the name of both 8 and RT is a good thing in order to reflect the coherence of the ecosystem going forward. But the suffixes should be better than 8 and RT. They should reflect the fact that both support modern UI apps but only one has legacy support.

kane4fire
Oct 21, 2012, 03:17 PM
However those applications that don't work on RT devices won't appear in the App store on RT to avoid the prospect of RT users purchasing applications they can't utilise, but it still does mean not all Apps on the App store will be available for RT devices.

That's actually why I didn't put it in the chart. In this situation, I think less is more. This is made to be an at a glance guide. If they never see the app, how will they know that it isn't compatible?

k995
Oct 21, 2012, 11:26 PM
Analysts, bloggers, and those generally in the technology business all disagree with you and they do see the probable confusion between RT & Windows 8/Pro as a genuine issue/threat.

But of course.... you know better than the myriad of voices all echoing the same concern.
Not really as you dont know what "all" analysts bloggers,... think"

And even then I am perfectly capable of thinking for my own

MacRumorUser
Oct 22, 2012, 12:05 AM
Not really as you dont know what "all" analysts bloggers,... think"

And even then I am perfectly capable of thinking for my own

What you mean a bit like how you don't know what 'all' consumers think but seem to act like you do? ....

k995
Oct 22, 2012, 04:57 AM
What you mean a bit like how you don't know what 'all' consumers think but seem to act like you do? ....

I wrote "i think" you wrote " all disagree with you"

See the difference ? One is my opinion the other is a stated fact wich you dont have a clue about as you read only a very small amount of the people you describe.

MacRumorUser
Oct 22, 2012, 05:42 AM
I wrote "i think" you wrote " all disagree with you"

See the difference ? One is my opinion the other is a stated fact wich you dont have a clue about as you read only a very small amount of the people you describe.

Sorry, think that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black

http://www.ritzrebels.co.uk/phpBB3/images/pot_calling_the_kettle_black_01.jpg

ReallyBigFeet
Oct 22, 2012, 06:37 AM
Technically, MS is duplicating Apples model. Full OS (Win8) for the desktop/laptop market, scaled-down OS for tablets. And then there's Windows Phone (or Mobile, or whatever they call it now) but that's such a laughably small part of the phone OS market as to be totally irrelevant. Otherwise, even the App Store concept is the same, right down to the curated behaviors. Consumers adapted just fine to this model on Apple and likely will again with MS as well, although jury is still out whether or not it will be as successful and peer pressure (even when passive) does play a role in adoption of any given technology standard.

Whats important here is recognition that MANY iPad/iPhone users are already Windows users. Theyve already made the choice to live in a mixed ecosystem and it works just fine. Apps like Dropbox and cross-platform iTunes makes this possible. Given time, the same can be true for the Surface.

The big mistake, I think, is that they have WinRT for tablets and then something different for phones. That makes little sense to me given that both the Surface and a matching phone are native "peers" if you look at how people use their smartphones and tablets in the iOS and Android world today. Not treating them as peer devices for app support is the big miss here in my mind. But I suspect this has more to do with MS and their long and incestuous relationship with hardware makers. They only make money when they license software. Nonetheless, I think Microsoft's strategy is deeply flawed. They are treating the Surface as a scaled down laptop, whereas Apple treated the iPad like a scaled up iPhone. Its this "tablet as consumption device" model that Microsoft is missing, and instead are creating an overly-complex sales proposition. I think users are going to compare the Surface and Windows RT to iPad/iOS and the differences there will be significant from a usability perspective.

Regardless of the above, however, I think The Verge article is wrong. It's not that big of a problem for MS. Their market for Surface won't even think about the OS on there. They will just look at the pre-loaded apps (Email, browser, Office) and the App Store and make the comparison to the iPad. That's all.

I do now, however, understand why Office for iOS has been so long in coming.

k995
Oct 22, 2012, 08:48 AM
Sorry, think that's a case of the pot calling the kettle black


Sure you claiming you know all the opnions of all IT commentators is the same as someones OWN opinion. :rolleyes:

ozaz
Oct 22, 2012, 06:17 PM
Technically, MS is duplicating Apples model.



I would disagree with that. The models seem clearly different and offer a nice choice for consumers.

Apple: Same OS and App Store for tablet and phone. Different for desktop/laptop.

Microsoft: The same OS (albeit in two flavours that principally differ in presence of legacy support) and App Store for tablet and desktop/laptop. Different for phone.

You allude to these differences in approach later in your post, so I don't really understand your contradictory statement quoted above.

In principle, I prefer the Microsoft one as I'd rather share apps across desktop and tablet than across tablet and phone, as well as have the option of a fully fledged OS in a tablet form. But I'm sure many others will, and do, prefer Apple's model. It's great that Microsoft have given us consumers a new option rather than just duplicating Apple's approach.

Sacird
Oct 22, 2012, 09:10 PM
Nevermind, found my answer.