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Black Magic
Oct 18, 2012, 12:54 PM
I have used Windows 8 RTM for a few weeks since release and I have to say it sucks. I completely expect to see this OS flounder once released and there is very little hype around it. You know its doomed when everyone is more excited about the iPad Mini than this OS.

How do you guys and gals feel? Will Steve Ballmer retire in 2013 Q1 due to this massive failure?



flopticalcube
Oct 18, 2012, 12:56 PM
They will muddle through most likely like they did with Vista. I don't know why Ballmer is still CEO. Most companies would have ejected a loser like that years ago.

robanga
Oct 18, 2012, 12:58 PM
I have only played with it but i will get it to put on something when it comes out. They key to making this work for Microsoft will be to build out the ecosystem around it, Windows RT, surface and phones and make compelling reasons for people to switch or late adopt.

They are gunning for mid and late adopters here right into the teeth of Google and Apple, not an easy thing. Its an attractive UI and certainly they have the money to market it but its a bet the company sort of thing to do it right and their board has to be rolling in their beds at 3AM thinking about that.

Certainly businesses are not going to rush out and upgrade their installed base. They are going to need great execution and a bit of luck.

ChazUK
Oct 18, 2012, 01:12 PM
I don't like it and think Canonical have the right idea this Ubuntu release:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/991312/ubuntu.png

xuselppa
Oct 18, 2012, 01:30 PM
Win8 will not flop, simply because it will be installed on every consumer PC from here on. You simply have no choice in the matter. Sink or swim time.

robanga
Oct 18, 2012, 01:42 PM
Win8 will not flop, simply because it will be installed on every consumer PC from here on. You simply have no choice in the matter. Sink or swim time.

Vista wasn't a flop by that definition, but i think if we see adoption rates that are similar to Vista it will be viewed very negatively.

xuselppa
Oct 18, 2012, 02:11 PM
Vista wasn't a flop by that definition, but i think if we see adoption rates that are similar to Vista it will be viewed very negatively.

I don't think we can view Win8 in the same context as Vista, because there is a Halo effect from multiple mobile consumer devices (Windows Phone, Surface and other OEM tablets, plus PC and laptops). People will become familiar with the platform in some shape or form over the next two years. Will Microsoft be able to grab more than 5 percent marketshare in the mobile arena, because of Win8, is the real question?

robanga
Oct 18, 2012, 02:13 PM
I don't think we can view Win8 in the same context as Vista, because there is a Halo effect from multiple mobile consumer devices (Windows Phone, Surface and other OEM tablets, plus PC and laptops). People will become familiar with the platform in some shape or form over the next two years. Will Microsoft be able to grab more than 5 percent marketshare in the mobile arena, because of Win8, is the real question?

There better be a Halo effect (might as well through the Xbox in there too) because it really is bet the company time for Microsoft.

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 02:52 PM
W8 will have a terrible reputation, and W9 will come sooner than later. Like what happened with Vista and how fast W7 came after.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 02:59 PM
And why will it have a terrible reputation exactly? I hear people saying this all the time, yet no one says why.

Rogifan
Oct 18, 2012, 03:07 PM
Most big businesses are just upgrading to Windows 7. By the time they're ready to upgrade again we'll be on Windows 9 or 10.

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 03:10 PM
And why will it have a terrible reputation exactly? I hear people saying this all the time, yet no one says why.

Metro sucks!!!! It's more like bloatware on a PC.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 03:13 PM
Most big businesses are just upgrading to Windows 7. By the time they're ready to upgrade again we'll be on Windows 9 or 10.

That doesn't mean it's going to have a bad reputation. Truthfully, I don't think some people understand why Vista had a bad rep, and how Win8 doesn't suffer from even a single one of the problems that plagued it.

Oooh. New Start screen. Everyone's gonna hate it forever and MS will go out of business.

Metro sucks!!!! It's more like bloatware on a PC.

So don't use Metro apps! IT'S SO SIMPLE!

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 03:35 PM
So don't use Metro apps! IT'S SO SIMPLE!

No, it's not that simple.

The Metro UI is unavoidable. You can't boot directly to desktop anymore. So bloatware it is.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 03:45 PM
The Metro UI is unavoidable. You can't boot directly to desktop anymore. So bloatware it is.

First, I don't think you know what bloatware is.

Secondly, no. You can't boot to the desktop directly anymore. But resuming from standby, which is what most people do these days, takes you directly there.

Thirdly, the unavoidable Metro UI is an application launcher. You've got all your stuff lined up to fire off right away, or you can go directly to the desktop itself with a single click.

Yes. That's right. A single click. All this whining, moaning, and complaining is over one. Single. Mouse. Click. It adds roughly .3 seconds to the whole bootup process. Considering Win8 boots up in about 4 seconds on a good SSD now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ia3zBs42cc)...yeah. I've never seen so many people freak out over something so little. It's ridiculous.

Black Magic
Oct 18, 2012, 04:01 PM
First, I don't think you know what bloatware is.

Secondly, no. You can't boot to the desktop directly anymore. But resuming from standby, which is what most people do these days, takes you directly there.

Thirdly, the unavoidable Metro UI is an application launcher. You've got all your stuff lined up to fire off right away, or you can go directly to the desktop itself with a single click.

Yes. That's right. A single click. All this whining, moaning, and complaining is over one. Single. Mouse. Click. It adds roughly .3 seconds to the whole bootup process. Considering Win8 boots up in about 4 seconds on a good SSD now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ia3zBs42cc)...yeah. I've never seen so many people freak out over something so little. It's ridiculous.

Why even add that extra click in the first place? It's inefficient if all anyone is going to do is click it to get away from Metro. What if there was a new automotive feature that required you to honk the horn once before you can start the car? Guess what? I would want the car that I don't have to honk the horn.

Windows 8 is a hot mess. I'm not even going to get into using web browsers in Metro or having to click 3 or so times to shutdown the PC unless you use keyboard shortcuts. It's really a jack of all trades and a master of none. I quickly went back to Windows 7 to be more efficient.

Oh and folks claim that Metro is revolutionary and that it makes IOS look old which is bizarre to me. So people prefer COLORED SQUARES IN A ROW over ICONS in a ROW? Same copy and paste job Microsoft has always done, just with a little twist. It not new and it's certainly not desirable. I'll let the market validate that for me.

Cheers!

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 04:17 PM
Why even add that extra click in the first place? It's inefficient if all anyone is going to do is click it to get away from Metro. What if there was a new automotive feature that required you to honk the horn once before you can start the car? Guess what? I would want the car that I don't have to honk the horn.

Because having to honk your horn to start your car is completely and totally the same as a single mouse click. It isn't inefficient and pointless because there are a thousand things you can do right off from the Start screen instead of going directly to the desktop. Like if I want to load Photoshop as soon as I boot the computer. Well, there's the icon right there. I could click it instead of the big desktop tile, and get to it exactly as quickly as if I launched it from the taskbar on the desktop itself.

Hell, same thing with launching Chrome. Hit the icon on the Start screen instead of on the taskbar.

Or maybe I want to launch the Metro weather app instead of going to the desktop. Well there you go. See? It's an application launcher. It serves a purpose beyond keeping you away from the desktop as long as possible for no apparent reason.

Honk the horn. Man. That's about the stupidest, lamest analogy I've seen around here. Certainly you can do better than that.

Windows 8 is a hot mess. I'm not even going to get into using web browsers in Metro or having to click 3 or so times to shutdown the PC unless you use keyboard shortcuts. It's really a jack of all trades and a master of none. I quickly went back to Windows 7 to be more efficient.

I've been using Windows 8 for awhile, and I find I use it almost exactly how I used Windows 7. It looks a little different, but that's about it.

...though I will admit hiding the power button like they did was pretty damn dumb.

Oh and folks claim that Metro is revolutionary and that it makes IOS look old which is bizarre to me. So people prefer COLORED SQUARES IN A ROW over ICONS in a ROW? Same copy and paste job Microsoft has always done, just with a little twist. It not new and it's certainly not desirable. I'll let the market validate that for me.

Did Apple invent the row of icons? How is MS copying them? Because their setup requires you to launch applications by hitting an abstract representative of them collected together in an array?

Also, Metro isn't just about the colored tiles. It's an entire design language, of which the colored tiles on the Start menu is only one small part.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 04:18 PM
It's a business environment (in corporate offices) I would be more concerned about. Metro looks very consumer and not very business like.

Likewise on a desktop or normal laptop with a trackpad, some of the gestures which are natural on a touch device, feel overly cumbersome.

And tucking away things like power is inconvenient at best.


What I suspect will happen is that with Windows 8 SP1, Microsoft will add the option to bypass metro and use a simplified start menu if you choose.

Personally they should have had that option from day 1.

Do I think it will fail, no....
Do i think it will undergo many changes yes...




Do i think Windows RT is a right move... no.

If the goal was deliver Windows 8 on ARM to compete with Android and iOS well yes they have done that; but the pricing is too close to similar Atom powered models which will have the full Windows 8 experience in tablet hardware, so what is the point of RT other than to cause confusion for the consumer, especially when 'on the surface' it looks identical to the full windows version (see what I did there ;) )

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 04:21 PM
First, I don't think you know what bloatware is.

Secondly, no. You can't boot to the desktop directly anymore. But resuming from standby, which is what most people do these days, takes you directly there.

Thirdly, the unavoidable Metro UI is an application launcher. You've got all your stuff lined up to fire off right away, or you can go directly to the desktop itself with a single click.

Yes. That's right. A single click. All this whining, moaning, and complaining is over one. Single. Mouse. Click. It adds roughly .3 seconds to the whole bootup process. Considering Win8 boots up in about 4 seconds on a good SSD now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ia3zBs42cc)...yeah. I've never seen so many people freak out over something so little. It's ridiculous.

Metro is clunky at best, it's doesn't feel smooth at all and I'm running on very good specs. The transition going back n forth from metro to desktop has a jerky feel to it, especially when using hot corners.

I don't like Metro and many others feel the same. It was made for touch, not mouse or touchpad.

It's not whining or moaning. That's just what your making it out to be by your need to defend it so hard.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 04:21 PM
...though I will admit hiding the power button like they did was pretty damn dumb.




Yep that's my biggest bugbear. It makes turning off your computer (yes folks many of us still do that) something that used to take a flick of the windows key and a click on shutdown, into a convoluted procedure that takes 4X as long.




Metro is clunky at best, it's doesn't feel smooth at all and I'm running on very good specs. The transition going back n forth from metro to desktop has a jerky feel to it, especially when using hot corners.

I don't like Metro and many others feel the same. It was made for touch, not mouse or touchpad.

It's not whining or moaning. That's just what your making it out to be by your need to defend it so hard.


Exactly my thoughts and I've been using the final version for a while as part of my MSDN subscription. As pretty as it looks, it is just cumbersome with a trackpad or mouse.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 04:30 PM
Metro is clunky at best, it's doesn't feel smooth at all and I'm running on very good specs. The transition going back n forth from metro to desktop has a jerky feel to it, especially when using hot corners.

Really? I can hit the hot corner without even looking, and the "jerky" transition is a smooth fade in even on the older machine I have Win8 installed (which I'm on now, by the way). Hell, I could make a video of me hitting it over and over and over again without missing it once just by flicking my mouse cursor. It's like activating old Expose on OSX. No one ever complained about one of the corners being hard to hit there.

Honestly, I think you're just looking for things to complain about.

I don't like Metro and many others feel the same. It was made for touch, not mouse or touchpad.

Metro apps? Yeah. I can agree with that. The Start screen? Not so much. They're just squares that you click with your mouse to launch stuff. They're a little bigger than traditional icons, sure. But that just means they're that much easier to hit with a mouse.

It's not whining or moaning. That's just what your making it out to be by your need to defend it so hard.

I defend it mostly because the complaints I read here are dumb. Win8 isn't perfect. It's kinda weird in places. Either the Verge or Ars Technica one did an article explaining why it's not exactly a "touch ready" OS just yet that I agreed with. It is very much transitional, and Win9 will likely be much, much smoother overall.

But to complain about that one extra mouse click? It's like some people want to hate it. And that's stupid.

----------

Yep that's my biggest bugbear. It makes turning off your computer (yes folks many of us still do that) something that used to take a flick of the windows key and a click on shutdown, into a convoluted procedure that takes 4X as long.

There's actually a slightly easier way to access it. Go to the charms bar, and hit settings. You'll see it there at the bottom.

Still not as easy to find as it used to be, but at least you don't have to log out and go all the way back to the splash screen to get to it.

mgipe
Oct 18, 2012, 04:36 PM
It certainly makes OS-X look more attractive....

Black Magic
Oct 18, 2012, 04:36 PM
Because having to honk your horn to start your car is completely and totally the same as a single mouse click. It isn't inefficient and pointless because there are a thousand things you can do right off from the Start screen instead of going directly to the desktop. Like if I want to load Photoshop as soon as I boot the computer. Well, there's the icon right there. I could click it instead of the big desktop tile, and get to it exactly as quickly as if I launched it from the taskbar on the desktop itself.

Hell, same thing with launching Chrome. Hit the icon on the Start screen instead of on the taskbar.

Or maybe I want to launch the Metro weather app instead of going to the desktop. Well there you go. See? It's an application launcher. It serves a purpose beyond keeping you away from the desktop as long as possible for no apparent reason.

Honk the horn. Man. That's about the stupidest, lamest analogy I've seen around here. Certainly you can do better than that.



I've been using Windows 8 for awhile, and I find I use it almost exactly how I used Windows 7. It looks a little different, but that's about it.

...though I will admit hiding the power button like they did was pretty damn dumb.



Did Apple invent the row of icons? How is MS copying them? Because their setup requires you to launch applications by hitting an abstract representative of them collected together in an array?

Also, Metro isn't just about the colored tiles. It's an entire design language, of which the colored tiles on the Start menu is only one small part.

The honk the horn analogy was to point out adding an extra layer of inefficiency. It was a poor one but it still got the point across. :)

I don't want metro on the PC. You lose more than you gain in my opinion. If you know people really just want to go to the desktop, why isn't the there an option to start with whatever launcher you want?

I doubt many businesses will adopt Windows 8 and to be honest, I think Microsoft is dying a very slow death.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 04:49 PM
The honk the horn analogy was to point out adding an extra layer of inefficiency. It was a poor one but it still got the point across. :)

Though I'm saying it's not inefficient so much as it's just a little different.

Like what do you do right after your boot your computer to the desktop? You click on an application. It's the same thing here. You want to launch IE or something, click the big blue E from the Start screen instead of the task bar, and it opens it up on the desktop. Different execution? Yeah, slightly. Functionally? It's exactly the same.

I don't want metro on the PC. You lose more than you gain in my opinion. If you know people really just want to go to the desktop, why isn't the there an option to start with whatever launcher you want?

Actually, the option would be nice for the holders on. That has been one of the things that most people like about Windows, how you're not forced to do one thing one way. MS did take that away from them in Win8.

But as far as the new Start goes, I actually like the metro'd version a little better. I can fit more onscreen, organize it better, and see more results at once when I do a type to search.

It all comes down to preference in the end, but I do think some people don't like it just because it's different and want something to complain about, rather than it actually being truly broken and worth complaining about.

I doubt many businesses will adopt Windows 8 and to be honest, I think Microsoft is dying a very slow death.

There hasn't been much evidence of that so far. OEMs are sliding slowly down the stocks ladder, but that's just because they've raced so far to the bottom, they have no where else to go. MS is still as strong as it ever was.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 04:56 PM
There's actually a slightly easier way to access it. Go to the charms bar, and hit settings. You'll see it there at the bottom.

Still not as easy to find as it used to be, but at least you don't have to log out and go all the way back to the splash screen to get to it.

Yeah that's how I access it at the moment :)

Sedrick
Oct 18, 2012, 04:59 PM
Windows 8 desktop is an answer to a question no one asked.

WP8 for the mobile looks very good indeed.

wikus
Oct 18, 2012, 05:11 PM
First, I don't think you know what bloatware is.

Secondly, no. You can't boot to the desktop directly anymore. But resuming from standby, which is what most people do these days, takes you directly there.

Thirdly, the unavoidable Metro UI is an application launcher. You've got all your stuff lined up to fire off right away, or you can go directly to the desktop itself with a single click.

Yes. That's right. A single click. All this whining, moaning, and complaining is over one. Single. Mouse. Click. It adds roughly .3 seconds to the whole bootup process. Considering Win8 boots up in about 4 seconds on a good SSD now (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ia3zBs42cc)...yeah. I've never seen so many people freak out over something so little. It's ridiculous.

Microsoft has usually given more choice than Apple, so unless its already been implemented, but the choice to setup the OS to boot into either Metro or Classic should be there, or have metro be completely removed/blocked after the initial install of the OS.

That would basically solve all the problems. Choice is great, something that Apple is very uncomfortable with.

----------

Windows 8 desktop is an answer to a question no one asked.

WP8 for the mobile looks very good indeed.

You could make the same argument about certain garbage that was implemented into Lion and Mountain Lion; mission control, launchpad, resume. All ridiculously lousy features of OS X thats been consistently iPadified over the years.

Those were also answers from Apple to a question no one asked, and the community GREATLY disagreed however only Mission Control got a fix to show all windows all at once (ungrouped).

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 05:17 PM
I defend it mostly because the complaints I read here are dumb. Win8 isn't perfect. It's kinda weird in places. Either the Verge or Ars Technica one did an article explaining why it's not exactly a "touch ready" OS just yet that I agreed with. It is very much transitional, and Win9 will likely be much, much smoother overall.

But to complain about that one extra mouse click? It's like some people want to hate it. And that's stupid.

http://youtu.be/v4boTbv9_nU

http://youtu.be/QbjnbhWVN8c

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 05:26 PM
http://youtu.be/v4boTbv9_nU

http://youtu.be/QbjnbhWVN8c

Those are the stupidest videos in the world. You sit anyone down in front of something completely unfamiliar without any clue on how to use it, and they'll be completely stumped.

I've even got a personal example for you. It took my granny 3 months before she became comfortable using the iPad. iOS is supposed to be the easiest thing in the world to use, right? Well, she didn't know what did what. For her, iOS had a steep learning curve.

Does that mean iOS sucks and is difficult to use? Of course not. Hell, sit an old man down in front of OSX, and tell him to get on the internet. Do you think he's gonna go straight towards the compass icon without a second thought? No. He'll be looking around confused, afraid to press anything because he's scared he might break it.

AppleInTheMud
Oct 18, 2012, 05:50 PM
They will muddle through most likely like they did with Vista. I don't know why Ballmer is still CEO. Most companies would have ejected a loser like that years ago.

Funny a nooneknowsabout guy like you will comment like that. Ballmer is a clever man.

And if you ask me Windows 8 is brilliant. Yes Im on Mac, but Im not like the typical fanboy - I see more than the logo. I see sence.

Windows 8 - for touch and for mouse/trackpad. Klick one tile and you have a normal desktop.

iOS and Mac OS X don't "work" together.

Windows 8 + Windows 8 for Tablets + Windows Phone 8 + xBox 360 all work together now. That really is kind of brilliant.

I have the best of all companies. Apple, Microsoft and Google Android.

All 3 have their plus's - Windows will always be the biggest OS Im sure.

People (most people) dont like the way your bound by Apple. And Im also starting to dislike it. After my 2 days with the iPhone 5 I gave it to my daughter. I still have a iphone (4S) but all my work is now done on a Galaxay Note 2 phone. It's soooo much faster. It doesnt crash. It has a maps app. It works with AirPlay so I still can use my AppleTV, I can have 2 apps open on the screen at one time and so on and so on.

iOS has no freedom. It's fast yes... (not on iPhone 4 - lags like ****) - and there is a BUNCH of Apps. But the phone OS it self? Boring and you cant do anything that Apple dont wont you to.

But try explaining that to a fanboy. Once I was one... But Im not stupid. Apple makes money (still) with iPhone. But it's getting VERY old to use.

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 05:59 PM
Those are the stupidest videos in the world. You sit anyone down in front of something completely unfamiliar without any clue on how to use it, and they'll be completely stumped.

I've even got a personal example for you. It took my granny 3 months before she became comfortable using the iPad. iOS is supposed to be the easiest thing in the world to use, right? Well, she didn't know what did what. For her, iOS had a steep learning curve.

Does that mean iOS sucks and is difficult to use? Of course not. Hell, sit an old man down in front of OSX, and tell him to get on the internet. Do you think he's gonna go straight towards the compass icon without a second thought? No. He'll be looking around confused, afraid to press anything because he's scared he might break it.

Actually most people can start using iOS and OSX right out the box with a very little learning curve.

The guy could barely maneuver around in W8.

How much is MS paying you? Cause you fail to accept MS did not make W8 as user friendly or intuitive as they try to make it seem.

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 06:00 PM
iOS has no freedom. It's fast yes... (not on iPhone 4 - lags like ****) - and there is a BUNCH of Apps.

Neither does Windows RT, except it hasn't got the bunch of Apps like iOS does.

faroZ06
Oct 18, 2012, 06:19 PM
You could make the same argument about certain garbage that was implemented into Lion and Mountain Lion; mission control, launchpad, resume. All ridiculously lousy features of OS X thats been consistently iPadified over the years.

Mission Control isn't in iOS, and what's so bad about Launchpad? I basically had Launchpad in Leopard (now at Snow Leopard) because I put all of my applications in my Applications folder and put that on my dock with the gridded preview setting. Launchpad is just easier than that.

I've never used Resume, and Mission Control isn't bad.

AppleInTheMud
Oct 18, 2012, 06:20 PM
Neither does Windows RT, except it hasn't got the bunch of Apps like iOS does.

Think when you answer...

WINDOWS USERS HAS A CHOICE - Apple users NOT. And windows have like 100 users for every time Mac OS X has 1 - soooo in 2-3 years there will be more app's for the Windows version anyway

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 06:22 PM
Actually most people can start using iOS and OSX right out the box with a very little learning curve.

Depends on how comfortable they are with computers in general. All of us here could pick up iOS and use it. Someone who isn't used to it, though? Like having to doubleclick the home button twice to bring up the multitasker, to hold your finger down on the icons displayed there for two seconds then click the - button to close an app? To do the same to move apps around? There are some things about iOS that aren't immediately apparent, and have to be explained before someone can take advantage of them.

...much like getting to the start menu in Windows 8. Or accessing mission control in OSX. Or using Gnome 3 in Linux. There's a learning curve to everything. To sit someone down in front of an OS they have no idea how to use and expect them to magically begin hacking away at it like an old pro as an example of usability is a setup for failure.

I guess I could get my grandma, sit her down in front of a Mac, and film her stumbling around while screaming "SUCK IT APPLE FANBOYS", but I'd have to be an idiot to waste my time doing that.

Windows 8 is no more difficult to use than Win7 once you learn how to use the new features.

How much is MS paying you?

Not nearly enough.

faroZ06
Oct 18, 2012, 06:22 PM
They will muddle through most likely like they did with Vista. I don't know why Ballmer is still CEO. Most companies would have ejected a loser like that years ago.

Yeah, I'm also wondering how Microsoft didn't lose major market share after keeping an unstable/insecure OS (XP) for so long then, after all those years of waiting, came out with Vista, the second worst version of Windows I've ever used. Sure they cleaned up their act with Windows 7, but I can't see how people would stick with Windows through that mess.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 06:24 PM
XP wasn't unstable. Insecure? Yeah, but it worked when you weren't getting viruses.

faroZ06
Oct 18, 2012, 06:27 PM
Think when you answer...

WINDOWS USERS HAS A CHOICE - Apple users NOT. And windows have like 100 users for every time Mac OS X has 1 - soooo in 2-3 years there will be more app's for the Windows version anyway

Mac OS X has 10% market share, I think. Some sources claim 8.5%.

----------

XP wasn't unstable. Insecure? Yeah, but it worked when you weren't getting viruses.

I'd consider XP less stable than 7 and 2000. My cousin and I used to both use it a lot, and we always ran into weird problems. The XP interface looks terrible, too, but you can switch it to "Classic", so it's OK.

Renzatic
Oct 18, 2012, 06:31 PM
I'd consider XP less stable than 7 and 2000. My cousin and I used to both use it a lot, and we always ran into weird problems. The XP interface looks terrible, too, but you can switch it to "Classic", so it's OK.

7 recovers from problems with a lot more grace than XP did, but I wouldn't say it's more stable. Same thing with 2000, which XP basically was.

I never had any problems out of XP, besides it overstaying it's welcome. Got kinda boring using the same OS for 8 years straight.

Technarchy
Oct 18, 2012, 06:34 PM
I think Windows 8 will do very well.

If Apple fails to reveal a new Mac Mini next week, I'll probably get a Windows 8 PC to replace my current rig.

JoeG4
Oct 18, 2012, 07:14 PM
There will probably be more Windows 8 devices shipped than all of OS X's market share within a very short period of time - just as there was with Windows 7 lol.

iOS, well.. different story I suppose. we'll see!

flopticalcube
Oct 18, 2012, 07:21 PM
Funny a nooneknowsabout guy like you will comment like that. Ballmer is a clever man.


Let's not get personal here, its just an opinion. I have been involved in IT for over 30 years and in all that time Ballmer has never struck me as a gifted leader in any way. MS was doing fine when Bill was in charge but has languished under Ballmer and the stock price attests to that. I am no Apple fanboy either but I don't see any great leadership at MS.

iosuser
Oct 18, 2012, 07:25 PM
I tried Windows 8 on a Latitude XT3, with touch and digitizer pen input. I positively hated the Metro UI. If I hated it on a convertible laptop with a touchscreen, I wouldn't even try it on my desktop. I do agree Metro is quite nice on a phone and tablet, but not on my desktop or laptop.

I'm a Windows veteran since 3.1. This will be the first major Windows release I'll be sitting out on.

AppleInTheMud
Oct 18, 2012, 07:28 PM
Let's not get personal here, its just an opinion. I have been involved in IT for over 30 years and in all that time Ballmer has never struck me as a gifted leader in any way. MS was doing fine when Bill was in charge but has languished under Ballmer and the stock price attests to that. I am no Apple fanboy either but I don't see any great leadership at MS.

Im not personal. You attacked Ballmer. Soooo you were personal.

But you write like a fanboy. And then it's hard to take it seriously what you write when you go blind through the world

flopticalcube
Oct 18, 2012, 07:40 PM
Im not personal. You attacked Ballmer. Soooo you were personal.

But you write like a fanboy. And then it's hard to take it seriously what you write when you go blind through the world

Did I? I gave an opinion. Some MS products I like, some I do not. Just like Apple. I like W7 a lot, more so than many versions of OS X. I dislike iOS and prefer Android. And I didn't attack Ballmer, I just thought he is a lousy CEO. The stock market seems to agree but for some reason he has kept his job. I think you are trying to read things into posts that are just not there. Please give me an example of Ballmer being "clever", besides the fact that he was Bill's roommate at uni.

I'll leave you with this bit from his Wikipedia page:

In May 2012, hedge fund manager David Einhorn called on Ballmer to step down as CEO of Microsoft. "His continued presence is the biggest overhang on Microsoft's stock," Einhorn said in reference to Ballmer.[15]

In a May 2012 column in Forbes magazine, Adam Hartung described Ballmer as "the worst CEO of a large publicly traded American company", saying he had "steered Microsoft out of some of the fastest growing and most lucrative tech markets (mobile music, handsets and tablets)".[16]

But I guess their opinions count more because they are not "nooneknowsabout guys".

MacRumorUser
Oct 18, 2012, 08:13 PM
Think when you answer...

WINDOWS USERS HAS A CHOICE - Apple users NOT. And windows have like 100 users for every time Mac OS X has 1 - soooo in 2-3 years there will be more app's for the Windows version anyway

Kindly be less obtuse, ignorant, rude, patronising and flippant when you answer....

What does 'windows users has a choice, apple users not' even mean? You fail to qualify your sticato sentences with non sensical arguments.

Windows RT is not compatible with current software and must have application written specifically for it. No one knows if it will get the same developer support as normal windows, and going on current selection of Applications available on Windows mobile handsets, it has in comparison far far less applications than iOS.

Your argument makes no sense in regards to windows RT. There may be more windows users currently but they are not windows RT users, much like their maybe more windows users to mac users but there are still far less windows mobile users.

Do not assume that an application available on Windows 8 will be available on Windows RT.


So no, please 'you think' for a change before answering and stop acting like the 'fanboy' you keep insinuating everyone else is.

Do I need you to look at my signature to see that I don't hate Microsoft ? Simples...

3bs
Oct 18, 2012, 08:24 PM
Do I need you to look at my signature to see that I don't hate Microsoft ? Simples...

I always wondered what that meant. A quick Google search cleared things up.

OSMac
Oct 18, 2012, 09:25 PM
I think Windows 8 will succeed, it does take some effort to adjust to it, but I think with time most will and soon even prefer it. It opens up new touch hardware which is a more natural way to interact.

Question: Why did MS develop RT and then only release a RT surface at launch?

The Atom based Win 8 tablets get as long or longer battery life, Intel is commited to improving the power drain of future cpu's.

The massive potential advantage of full windows 8 tablets is they run existing windows software but MS releases one that does not?

That is a mystery to me and then even more so why is anyone buying it, dont they know Atom tablets are available at launch?

b166er
Oct 18, 2012, 09:27 PM
I think Windows 8 looks awesome. For the pc, the phone, and the tablets. I'm sure it's not going to be very corporate friendly, but for a casual pc user I think it looks cool. I plan to dual boot it to the new iMac I hope to buy next month to give it a fair shot. It's a refreshing UI, and they're trying to be original.

I don't think it will be as widely adopted as XP or 7, but I think it deserves a fair shot, at least for the casual users.

David085
Oct 18, 2012, 09:31 PM
I think Windows 8 will do well, I getting Windows 8 Pro no matter what ppl say about Microsoft. ;)

throAU
Oct 18, 2012, 09:40 PM
W8 will have a terrible reputation, and W9 will come sooner than later. Like what happened with Vista and how fast W7 came after.

3 Years?

Longer than the gap between Windows 2000 and XP, or Windows 98 and 2000?

SlCKB0Y
Oct 18, 2012, 10:20 PM
Win8 will not flop, simply because it will be installed on every consumer PC from here on. You simply have no choice in the matter. Sink or swim time.

How so? Plenty of OEMs kept installing XP post-vista and MS had to extend the support period for Windows XP.

Windows 7 is only 3 years old and XP was 5-6 years old at the time of Vista's release....

Windows 7 won't be going anywhere for quite a while I should think.

----------

3 Years?

Longer than the gap between Windows 2000 and XP, or Windows 98 and 2000?

Nice try. Win2k was not a consumer targeted release and win98 and win2k are not even on the same OS lines (NT line vs Win 3.1 line).

The comparison you should be making is XP to Vista (5-6 years) but then even during the 3 year period between Vista and 7 many OEMs were still providing Windows XP.

Black Magic
Oct 18, 2012, 11:01 PM
Let's not get personal here, its just an opinion. I have been involved in IT for over 30 years and in all that time Ballmer has never struck me as a gifted leader in any way. MS was doing fine when Bill was in charge but has languished under Ballmer and the stock price attests to that. I am no Apple fanboy either but I don't see any great leadership at MS.

I'm not even sure why you are being attack about the Ballmer comment you made. You were actually answering a question I asked in the original post.

flopticalcube
Oct 18, 2012, 11:06 PM
I'm not even sure why you are being attack about the Ballmer comment you made. You were actually answering a question I asked in the original post.

I put it down to the late hour and dark Danish nights. ;)

thejadedmonkey
Oct 18, 2012, 11:15 PM
The thing that everyone forgets is that you can use the metro start screen just like the start menu.

Boot up into Windows, have your old school programs pinned to the start menu. The first thing you see if the start screen, you click on the program you want (say, Word) and word launches on the desktop.

It's literally no different from Windows 95 where you could set the start menu to show automatically at startup.

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 18, 2012, 11:24 PM
3 Years?

Longer than the gap between Windows 2000 and XP, or Windows 98 and 2000?

Shorter than the 5 year gap between XP and Vista. ;)

SlCKB0Y
Oct 19, 2012, 12:05 AM
It's literally no different from Windows 95 where you could set the start menu to show automatically at startup.

You mean except for the fact that it isn't a start menu and it takes up the whole screen?

kaielement
Oct 19, 2012, 12:42 AM
IMO w8 will run great on tablets and phones but on laptops and desk tops (vastly non touch screen machines) will be very clumsy. But once it is released we will see what the customers think.

Mr. Retrofire
Oct 19, 2012, 01:28 AM
They will muddle through most likely like they did with Vista. I don't know why Ballmer is still CEO. Most companies would have ejected a loser like that years ago.
The simple explanation is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ballmer#Microsoft

throAU
Oct 19, 2012, 01:56 AM
Shorter than the 5 year gap between XP and Vista. ;)

That was an anomaly - not the way things usually go.


Win 3.0 -> 3.1 -> 95 -> 98 -> 2k -> xp were all about 3 year gaps (or less)

Vista -> 7 = 3 year gap


XP to Vista blew out because security on XP was so bad they had to do a major os re-write in XP SP2 which took development resources away from what became Vista.

if you count XP SP2 as a different OS version to XP rtm (and it was very, very different) then the typical 3 year gap is reasonably consistent.

SlCKB0Y
Oct 19, 2012, 03:00 AM
Win 3.0 -> 3.1 -> 95 -> 98 -> 2k -> xp were all about 3 year gaps (or less)


Again, 2K was not in this line. You need to replace 2K with ME.

k995
Oct 19, 2012, 03:27 AM
I have used Windows 8 RTM for a few weeks since release and I have to say it sucks. I completely expect to see this OS flounder once released and there is very little hype around it.


Why does it suck for you?


You know its doomed when everyone is more excited about the iPad Mini than this OS.
How do you guys and gals feel? Will Steve Ballmer retire in 2013 Q1 due to this massive failure?
On macrumors? Duh

paulsalter
Oct 19, 2012, 04:33 AM
I am undecided on Windows 8 yet, so not sure about whether it will fail or not, I haven't used it much and am not a huge fan of this metro stuff but it's different

I like changes in some of these things

for phones I went from iPhone to BB to Android
for desktop I went from Windows XP to OS X and now thinking of going back to Windows to try version 8

OSMac
Oct 19, 2012, 05:06 AM
I am undecided on Windows 8 yet, so not sure about whether it will fail or not, I haven't used it much and am not a huge fan of this metro stuff but it's different

I like changes in some of these things

for phones I went from iPhone to BB to Android
for desktop I went from Windows XP to OS X and now thinking of going back to Windows to try version 8

Ms offers a full 90 day demo of the final version windows 8 to try.

I installed it on a 6 year old Pentium 4 box. At first I thought MS had made a terrible mistake, I hated it, but then I took the time to learn the new ways of doing things and I enjoyed it much more.

Its clearly better for tablets but I'm using it on a TV where the interface works much better too with full screen easy to access apps.

So I went from thinking it would fail to thinking its a move MS had to make to succeed it a fading Traditional PC market.

RT may struggle since it cant run existing programs, but not windows 8.

Krazy Bill
Oct 19, 2012, 09:41 AM
You mean except for the fact that it isn't a start menu and it takes up the whole screen?Oh for pete's sake... just press a single key and the start screen goes off into oblivion.

Or... just start typing what you want to do and press ENTER.

Or... use one of the windows hacks that will bypass the start screen and even put a start menu on the Win8 task bar. (I'll even go so far as to guarantee the one day MS will actually add the ability to skip the start screen altogether).

Crazy Badger
Oct 19, 2012, 10:22 AM
I've been well and truly sucked into the Apple ecosystem, but having played with Windows 8 RP in a VM on my iMac I think it will do very well.

Don't understand peoples "desktop" comments unless they'll miss their fancy pictures and hundreds of unnecessary icons. Looks to me like Microsoft are trying to move the game forward again after several years of stagnation (is W7 that much different to XP, or even 95?) and I think this might just do it.

cnev3
Oct 19, 2012, 10:32 AM
Even though i'm primarily an OSX user, I use Windows at work, and i'm sure I will continue to do so in the future. I hope Windows 8 turns out to be a success. PC sales are slumping, and this release is very crucial for Microsoft. We need competition in the marketplace.

thejadedmonkey
Oct 19, 2012, 10:41 AM
You mean except for the fact that it isn't a start menu and it takes up the whole screen?

It is a start menu, of sorts, but it takes up the whole screen.

Night Spring
Oct 19, 2012, 11:12 AM
Oh for pete's sake... just press a single key and the start screen goes off into oblivion.

Or... just start typing what you want to do and press ENTER.

Or... use one of the windows hacks that will bypass the start screen and even put a start menu on the Win8 task bar. (I'll even go so far as to guarantee the one day MS will actually add the ability to skip the start screen altogether).

I don't plan to use Win8, but if I ever did, I'd probably opt to install one of the hacks that bypass the start screen and puts back the start menu.

However, what I find annoying about Win8 is how it keeps dumping me back and forth between the traditional Windows interface and the new "previously known as Metro but now known as Modern" interface. I was trying out a preview release of Win8, and I was especially annoyed at how some control settings were in the Modern interface and some were using the traditional interface, so to fully configure my system, I needed to keep swapping between the two interfaces. I'm not fond of the flat square look of Modern, but I could get used to it if it was the only thing I had to look at. But every so often I get dumped back into the traditional interface whether I want to or not. If I say, **** this, I'll just stay in desktop mode all the time... Well, can't do that either, every so often I get dumped into Modern. Very irritating. At least on Lion / Mountain Lion, you can totally avoid Launcher if you want, and when you do invoke it, it doesn't look out of place -- it uses the same basic design aesthetics as the rest of the OS X interface.

robanga
Oct 19, 2012, 11:42 AM
Without Metro or whatever you call it now, what is Windows 8? I think Metro has to be one of the big selling points to anyone adopting the OS.

Businesses will be requesting Windows 7 for a long time from Dell, HP, Lenovo etc. Sure consumers will get Windows 8 on devices and new PC's, but then again the consumer PC market is not exactly thriving right now.

Hopefully for Microsoft those consumers will drive the latter business adoption of the OS, much the way consumers drove the iPhone and iPad into business.

Black Magic
Oct 19, 2012, 05:14 PM
Why does it suck for you?


On macrumors? Duh


Metro on the desktop doesn't work for me. I actually prefer Windows 7 and all the old school goodness like resizing Windows and such. Metro is cool on the phone and its tolerable on the XBOX.


On your second comment, surely you don't think the iPad Mini hype is exclusive to MacRumors do you?

nomanstool
Oct 19, 2012, 05:21 PM
one thing for sure, Win8 its a lot faster and more fluid comparing to OSX, which IMHO has drastically degraded its style by forcing fake leather in their design.

Also the gestures in windows 8 makes a lot more sense than gestures in Mountain Lion.

Will probably buy logitech's trackpad, unless apple releases drivers for its magic trackpad and enable win8 gestures :)
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/promotions/win8-landing

I was excited with iCloud with cloud syncing, sadly Apple's implementation falls short since its mostly tied in their own service.

While Microsoft chose an open approach by embracing service we already use, like linkedin, facebook twitter, google account... You'll be amaze on how everything is pre populated when you first sign in your Microsoft account.

Oh about the cloud syncing? Win 8 sync these:
1) Pictures
2) Videos
3) Background, colors, account picture
4) Passwords
5) Language preferences
6) App Settings
7) Browser settings, history and favorites...

list go on and on, its what apple should have been. Microsoft really nailed this one. :) win8 is brilliant and gorgeous.

http://6.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/personal-osx-win8.jpg

Krazy Bill
Oct 19, 2012, 06:46 PM
Metro on the desktop doesn't work for me. You and others. That's why I think we'll see a MS-sanctioned method to disable/bypass it one day. For example, I can see where one could configure it based on the device that's currently using it. On a desktop machine you could disable it and boot right to the traditional desktop - complete with start menu. Or... when you detach the screen from your ultra-book or dock (thereby turning it into a tablet), it automatically switches to metro.

That said, I don't know why they haven't already done it. I suppose it's MS's way of forcing users to adapt to the new way of doing things.

Renzatic
Oct 19, 2012, 06:51 PM
That said, I don't know why they haven't already done it. I suppose it's MS's way of forcing users to adapt to the new way of doing things.

It is them forcing people to use it. You could disable the Metro screen and bring back the old Start menu in the old developer preview via a registry hack, but they removed the work around afterwards.

...by completely removing the old start menu from the OS completely.

Though I do have one question. Yeah, the new Metro start screen does look different, but it performs exactly the same otherwise. To me, other than it quickly filling up the whole screen for a second, there are no disadvantages in using it. Why does everyone want the old start menu back so bad when the replacement works just as well?

DingleButt
Oct 19, 2012, 06:56 PM
It is them forcing people to use it. You could disable the Metro screen and bring back the old Start menu in the old developer preview via a registry hack, but they removed the work around afterwards.

...by completely removing the old start menu from the OS completely.

Though I do have one question. Yeah, the new Metro start screen does look different, but it performs exactly the same otherwise. To me, other than it quickly filling up the whole screen for a second, there are no disadvantages in using it. Why does everyone want the old start menu back so bad when the replacement works just as well?

I think people just have a hard time envisioning how they would actually use it. I say just load Win8 90 day trial up on a free partition, get the drivers for Win8, and try the OS with an open mind setting it up with your accounts and personalizing how you like. Most who do this actually come out saying its pretty good. Ive been running Win8 since consumer preview daily and its slowly gotten better as Microsoft worked on it and Win8 drivers like my trackpad driver that brings in new gestures showed up.

I can swipe in from the left to bring in the last app, swipe in from right to show the charms and time, swipe form top to bring up app bar, and 3 finger swipe to go forward or back.

Learning how to use and take advantage of Win8 is key and it wont happen if you dont give it a chance.

Attached a screenshot of my Start Screen how I do it. Putting all this hidden in a start menu is way harder than having it laid out on my Start Screen for this many things and I always can search by just typing.

Krazy Bill
Oct 19, 2012, 07:04 PM
It is them forcing people to use it. You could disable the Metro screen and bring back the old Start menu in the old developer preview via a registry hack, but they removed the work around afterwards.

...by completely removing the old start menu from the OS completely.I did not know that. Bastards! :eek:

Why does everyone want the old start menu back so bad when the replacement works just as well?

Fair point and I have no sensible answer. (Other than people don't like change :D)

Renzatic
Oct 19, 2012, 07:15 PM
...by completely removing the old start menu from the OS completely.

Department of redundancy department. I need to get into the habit of proofreading what I post. :P

Learning how to use and take advantage of Win8 is key and it wont happen if you dont give it a chance.

This is the key here, people. I didn't like Win8 all that much when I first tried it out. If you've got the time, patience, and...I dunno...obsessiveness to check out my old replies, I made a post here where I all but bagged on it.

But I kept using it. Why?

...mostly because I was too lazy to restore my Windows 7 partition, but that's beside the point. Fact is, after a couple of days, there were occasions where I forgot I was even using Windows 8. Once you get used to some of the new ways to do things, there are practically no differences between how you use it and 7. Full sized start screen or not, it does the exact same thing, and I use it about as much as I used the old menu. Which was somewhere between rarely and occasionally.

The plus side is I can now stuff a lot more icons into it than I used to be able to, and organize them better. Beforehand, I had about 4-5 programs pinned to the menu. Now? I have tons in there. And they're easy to find due to the shape of the columns helps guide the eye. Same with searches. I get tons more results, it's easier to read, and as an added bonus, I get thumbnails if I'm looking for pictures.

There are no disadvantages to the new start screen, unless you really, really, really hate that transitional effect that takes all of .4 seconds to run through.

edit: to ape Dinglebutt's example, I'll go ahead and post my start menu here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/start_menu.jpg).

I want someone to explain to me how this is a horrible setup for a mouse and keyboard.

SlCKB0Y
Oct 19, 2012, 07:42 PM
Why does everyone want the old start menu back so bad when the replacement works just as well?

If it only works "just as well" and the differences are minimal in your opinion, then why did they bother to change it in the first place?

Renzatic
Oct 19, 2012, 07:51 PM
Because they wanted a new interface that worked as a fullscreen app launcher for their touchbased devices while adhering to desktop functionality?

LOLZpersonok
Oct 19, 2012, 09:12 PM
If it fails, I don't think it'll be as bad as Windows Me was. That was terrible. I think so far Windows 8 my favorite Windows yet. Some things about it I don't like, but my most loved new feature is booting up much faster. I don't really think much of the new Metro UI (As cool as it is, and I think the Windows App Store was definitely inspired by the Mac App Store, but the two look and *behave* totally different in my opinion), but the whole operating system is much faster when running on my Netbook when compared to Windows 7. I also like how Microsoft included two-finger scroll and multitouch trackpad gestures by default. I also think that they made a good move by adding onto Windows' native touchscreen support from Windows XP, Vista and 7 by adding multitouch touchscreen gestures. But I don't think that the ARM architecture support is really necessary, unless we want it to run on an iPod Touch 2nd Gen or 1st Gen. (Not likely, but would be interesting) Besides, I think Microsoft decided to optimize it for tablets, that's why the Metro UI is in place. Not to say that you can't put Windows XP, Vista or 7 on a tablet, they all support touchscreens natively.

In my opinion, I don't think it'll be a terrible failure if it fails at all but that's because I really like it. It's my own opinion.

Besides, not to be offensive or an a** or anything, but I'd really rather not take the opinion of someone who favors Mac OS X (Not to say that it sucks, it's still a good OS) over Windows because I feel there is going to be bias. I like both OS'es and think both are good.

I guess it's either love it or hate it, then, right?

Night Spring
Oct 20, 2012, 03:09 AM
edit: to ape Dinglebutt's example, I'll go ahead and post my start menu here (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/start_menu.jpg).

I want someone to explain to me how this is a horrible setup for a mouse and keyboard.

It looks okay for a mouse, but how do you navigate that with the keyboard?

What I really like is the classic start menu from way back when (See attached thumbnail below). I think it went away in XP, or maybe Vista, but anyway in XP and Vista there was a way to get it back. Then when I couldn't get it back in Win 7, I pinned a shortcut to the "~Start Menu\Programs" folder to the Start Menu, and when I want to find a program I don't use that often (my most often used programs are pinned to the Start Menu or to the Taskbar), I click on the "~Start Menu\Programs" folder, then navigate it with the arrow keys on my keyboard.

Is there a way to move around that grid with the keyboard? Then I suppose I wouldn't hate the new start menu. But as I said before (in this thread or another one, I forget), what I find irritating about Win8 is how it keeps flipping me back and forth between the traditional windows desktop and the new "previously known as Metro" interface. If they had found a way to totally get rid of the traditional desktop and somehow run legacy programs in virtual windows, I think I'd be happier.

But btw, what do you do if you want to see two metro programs side by side? I know there is a way to open up another app in a smaller "sidebar" strip, but is there a way to have two programs open side by side in the same size? Or just open many windows at once and position them all however you want? If not, why would I want to use Metro apps on my desktop?

nomanstool
Oct 20, 2012, 03:25 AM
(As cool as it is, and I think the Windows App Store was definitely inspired by the Mac App Store, but the two look and *behave* totally different in my opinion)
Just to add to this, I believe Apple takes a cut a percentage I believe? 15% on paid apps in app store. While Microsoft just list your app for free :) It's a win/win situation for the developers.

Is there a way to move around that grid with the keyboard? Then I suppose I wouldn't hate the new start menu. But as I said before (in this thread or another one, I forget), what I find irritating about Win8 is how it keeps flipping me back and forth between the traditional windows desktop and the new "previously known as Metro" interface. If they had found a way to totally get rid of the traditional desktop and somehow run legacy programs in virtual windows, I think I'd be happier.
@Night Spring

They even improved it. When you are presented the new start screen of windows 8, or for some of you call it full size start screen, you just:
1) Start typing 'Pa', you don't even have to finish it well present you with the filtered results, and probably Paint will show up.
2) You press enter to open the up that's it

Now compared to the method you were saying, start screen -> right -> up / down -> right to navigate paint, then finally hitting enter. -> that probably will take you 30 seconds? more or less...

With the one I just posted you just type 'pa' and a filtered result will show up, and Paint is probably the first result, and you just hit 'enter' - probably only takes 2 seconds, that's 94% faster than how you previously navigate.

Also take note when you are presented with the grid on the results, you can navigate via arrow keys as well.

ChazUK
Oct 20, 2012, 04:20 AM
@Night Spring

They even improved it. When you are presented the new start screen of windows 8, or for some of you call it full size start screen, you just:
1) Start typing 'Pa', you don't even have to finish it well present you with the filtered results, and probably Paint will show up.
2) You press enter to open the up that's it

How is that any better than this?
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/991312/paint.png

Best thing about the "old" start menu? I can still view whatever is running on my desktop whilst multitasking.

Say I have a VLC window open playing a video and I want to launch an non-pinned application from the start menu. Is there any way I can do this on Windows 8 without losing focus of the video I have running in the background with the full screen start menu?

I've said it before but I can't stand losing focus of what I'm doing on the desktop just to access my non-pinned applications. I just find it too jarring.

Renzatic
Oct 20, 2012, 04:31 AM
It looks okay for a mouse, but how do you navigate that with the keyboard?

What I really like is the classic start menu from way back when (See attached thumbnail below). I think it went away in XP, or maybe Vista, but anyway in XP and Vista there was a way to get it back. Then when I couldn't get it back in Win 7, I pinned a shortcut to the "~Start Menu\Programs" folder to the Start Menu, and when I want to find a program I don't use that often (my most often used programs are pinned to the Start Menu or to the Taskbar), I click on the "~Start Menu\Programs" folder, then navigate it with the arrow keys on my keyboard.

Yeah, there is. Hit one of the arrow keys, and you'll get a highlighted box surrounding a tile. From there, just click away until you get what you want.

Though what you're seeing in the main start screen is more analogous (10 buck word of the day) to your pinned start menu apps. The metro-whatever it is equivalent to all programs folder is the apps screen, which looks like this (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/apps_menu.jpg). It's a bit crowded, but tons better than all those nested menus in my opinion. I hate nested menus. Think they're sloppy as hell.

Though the best thing to do, and the one thing you miss out on by reverting to the oldschool 95-XP start menu is type to search. Like if you're looking for a program you don't have pinned anywhere, but know the name of it, just hit the win key and type the first couple of letters of the name out, and you'll see it pop up. Like this. (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/search_menu.jpg)

The only downside to type to search in Win8 is it doesn't have an all programs and files category. It defaults to apps, so if you want to look for a file, you have to hit the down key twice to select it, or mouse over to it. Kinda stupid, specially since they had that option in Vista/7's type to search. The one plus side to 8's search is you can drill down to more specific selections, so I guess it's a semi-even tradeoff.

So yeah, long post short, you can use the keyboard, and do most of the things you can do in the old start menus. It looks and feels different, but acts about the same, plus or minus a couple extra features.

Is there a way to move around that grid with the keyboard? Then I suppose I wouldn't hate the new start menu. But as I said before (in this thread or another one, I forget), what I find irritating about Win8 is how it keeps flipping me back and forth between the traditional windows desktop and the new "previously known as Metro" interface. If they had found a way to totally get rid of the traditional desktop and somehow run legacy programs in virtual windows, I think I'd be happier.

But btw, what do you do if you want to see two metro programs side by side? I know there is a way to open up another app in a smaller "sidebar" strip, but is there a way to have two programs open side by side in the same size? Or just open many windows at once and position them all however you want? If not, why would I want to use Metro apps on my desktop?

Same size? No. It's always 1/3rd 2/3rds on the left or right side, and you can only ever multitask between two metro apps at once.

Really truthfully honestly, if you're mostly intending on using the desktop there aren't any huge reasons to upgrade from 7. Sure, it's a little faster, a little thinner, and all that good stuff, and it's nowhere near the horror show ruination of Windows some people claim it is, but it also doesn't offer anything you absolutely have to have. It's nowhere near as huge a jump from XP/Vista to 7, in other words. As far as desktop usage goes, it's only an incremental update to what you've already got. Sure, the new start screen, task manager, and ribbon wrapped explorer are nice, but they're not full priced upgrade nice. In fact, if the upgrade weren't just $40 or so, I probably would've gone back to 7, and only made the official jump if and when I grab a Surface.

I guess that's kinda my final review of Windows 8. If you're not making the jump into the new MS ecosystem, there isn't anything earth shattering here to come to. It's not a bad upgrade, but not a totally necessary one, either.

nomanstool
Oct 20, 2012, 06:54 AM
How is that any better than this?


Best thing about the "old" start menu? I can still view whatever is running on my desktop whilst multitasking.

Say I have a VLC window open playing a video and I want to launch an non-pinned application from the start menu. Is there any way I can do this on Windows 8 without losing focus of the video I have running in the background with the full screen start menu?

I've said it before but I can't stand losing focus of what I'm doing on the desktop just to access my non-pinned applications. I just find it too jarring.

You do realize I replied to your previous post when you navigate via arrows? And the one you just posted is exactly what Microsoft did, it's the same thing, if you click 'windows' then start typing it gives suggestion,

Same thing if you're on a desktop, pressing 'windows button' will bring you to the smart menu, 'start typing' it will search for apps.

And losing focus? Searching Paint on this method will consume you only 2 seconds, not a deal breaker at all.

Heck is it an absolutely must need feature for you? to be able to search paint while watching your video?

Is there any way I can do this on Windows 8 without losing focus of the video I have running in the background with the full screen start menu?

Technically its possible by using dual monitors. Or just by hooking your LED TV to your pc, and you can watch it there while you work.

ChazUK
Oct 20, 2012, 07:23 AM
You do realize I replied to your previous post when you navigate via arrows? And the one you just posted is exactly what Microsoft did, it's the same thing, if you click 'windows' then start typing it gives suggestion,

Same thing if you're on a desktop, pressing 'windows button' will bring you to the smart menu, 'start typing' it will search for apps.
I can't say the benefit of being able to move up, down, left and right on the new start menu would make me love it any more than I do now.

And losing focus? Searching Paint on this method will consume you only 2 seconds, not a deal breaker at all.

Heck is it an absolutely must need feature for you? to be able to search paint while watching your video?
Well, my Desktop use is not only limited to Paint and VLC, I only used paint as it was mentioned as an example above. :D I do multitask on the desktop and losing focus does bug the hell out of me. For me, losing focus for 0 seconds is better than losing it for 2 seconds, sorry! :p

Technically its possible by using dual monitors. Or just by hooking your LED TV to your pc, and you can watch it there while you work.
I do have some spare monitors at home and could give this a go. Dual Monitor is a bit of a pain in the arse on my desktop as my NVidia GPU insists on running the fans at full speed whenever a second display is used. Same issue as this. (http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=61404) Makes my almost silent PC unbearable. :(

The jump from Windows 3.x to 95 was a big jump back in the day and I'm sure once I get used to it, Windows 8 will make sense. I may seem to be bashing MS a bit here but I do think my reluctance in coming to terms with Windows 8 is testament to how great Windows 7 is. It was always going to be hard for MS to follow up on 7. :cool:

On top of the Windows 7/8 transition, I'm also giving Unity a whirl in Ubuntu as opposed to Gnome 3 (made better with Axe Menu (https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/327/axe-menu/) or Applications menu (https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/6/applications-menu/)). I guess I'm getting averse to change in my old age! :D

Night Spring
Oct 20, 2012, 11:15 AM
The metro-whatever it is equivalent to all programs folder is the apps screen, which looks like this (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/apps_menu.jpg). It's a bit crowded, but tons better than all those nested menus in my opinion. I hate nested menus. Think they're sloppy as hell.

Personal preference, I suppose, but I love nested menus. To me, that seeing everything at once screen looks sloppy as hell. :D

I like to organize my program shortcuts into nested folders by type, like I have a "graphics" folder, "audio-visual" folder, "office" folder, etc. When I want to open Paint, or my other photo editing program which I can never remember if it was spelled "photo filter” or "foto filter," I know they are in my "graphics" folder, and I don't have to wade through icons for my media players or my office programs just to find the photo editing program.


Really truthfully honestly, if you're mostly intending on using the desktop there aren't any huge reasons to upgrade from 7. Sure, it's a little faster, a little thinner, and all that good stuff, and it's nowhere near the horror show ruination of Windows some people claim it is, but it also doesn't offer anything you absolutely have to have.

That's about the same conclusion I came to. If for some reason, I had to use Win8 on a desktop, I'd grumble about it for a few days but eventually get used to it. But at the same time, I see no reason to go out of my way to upgrade my desktops. Or my laptop, for that matter. I'll probably pick up a Surface to play with, and that's where the real test of Win8 will be -- how well it works as a tablet OS. But for the desktop, all Win8 does is introduce new ways of doing things for the sake of change.

cube
Oct 20, 2012, 11:17 AM
I will look for PCs that are NOT Windows 8 certified.

DingleButt
Oct 20, 2012, 12:14 PM
Personal preference, I suppose, but I love nested menus. To me, that seeing everything at once screen looks sloppy as hell. :D

I like to organize my program shortcuts into nested folders by type, like I have a "graphics" folder, "audio-visual" folder, "office" folder, etc. When I want to open Paint, or my other photo editing program which I can never remember if it was spelled "photo filter” or "foto filter," I know they are in my "graphics" folder, and I don't have to wade through icons for my media players or my office programs just to find the photo editing program.



That's about the same conclusion I came to. If for some reason, I had to use Win8 on a desktop, I'd grumble about it for a few days but eventually get used to it. But at the same time, I see no reason to go out of my way to upgrade my desktops. Or my laptop, for that matter. I'll probably pick up a Surface to play with, and that's where the real test of Win8 will be -- how well it works as a tablet OS. But for the desktop, all Win8 does is introduce new ways of doing things for the sake of change.

Semantic Zoom and Categories in Start Screen would give you a similar way to group them, but its not nested. If you really want you could make a Programs Folder, pin it to your Start Screen and nested folders and shortcuts in there.

LIVEFRMNYC
Oct 20, 2012, 02:19 PM
If they had found a way to totally get rid of the traditional desktop and somehow run legacy programs in virtual windows, I think I'd be happier.


OMG NO........ That's defeats the purpose of the OS being called Windows.

throAU
Oct 21, 2012, 08:51 PM
Again, 2K was not in this line. You need to replace 2K with ME.

ME was an abortion, I can count the number of people I encountered who actually ran it without upgrading to 98SE or 2k on 1 hand, and i worked in the PC service industry back then.

----------

If it only works "just as well" and the differences are minimal in your opinion, then why did they bother to change it in the first place?

More importantly, it doesn't work "just as well".

With the traditional start menu, i can keep my applications visible on screen whilst clicking on menu items, rather than experiencing a jarring UI transition, losing visibility of my apps, etc.

the hot corner start screen is unintuitive as well.

move to hot corner, then the natural tendancy is to try and mouse over the pop up to click it, which then disappears.

try giving a user a cheat sheet for a task, and having them attempt to follow the directions with the document open on screen in Windows 8.

see how well the hot corners work in a remote desktop or remote assistance session that you aren't running full screen, because - you know - you have other things to be doing at the same time.

metro is a toy/tablet UI that has no place on a real desktop. not being able to run a metro app in a WINDOW is like going back to DOS. Yes, for now there is the butchered classic desktop, but MS is trying to push metro hard. no one wants it.

Technarchy
Oct 21, 2012, 10:17 PM
OMG NO........ That's defeats the purpose of the OS being called Windows.

I agree. Windows desktop is such a ubiquitous and integral part of global computing; some caution might be a good idea on MSFT's part.

MSFT adding a optional touch friendly launcher for desktop is fine. However some of these desktop changes seem like change for the sake of change with no real benefit.

The Metro UI, or whatever it's called now, works so well on phones and looks great on a tablet...on desktop the verdict is still out.

SA Spyder
Oct 21, 2012, 10:23 PM
I'm currently using Windows 8 (unlike most of the people with professional opinions in the thread) and it's easily the best Windows ever. Runs twice as fast (if not more) than Mountain Lion on my i7 MacBook Pro. Looks like Boot Camp will completely replace OSX. Slow mess.

Renzatic
Oct 21, 2012, 10:39 PM
You know what's really weird? I don't remember ever saying that. But there I am. Quoted. What's going on? O_o

xTRIGGER092x
Oct 21, 2012, 11:09 PM
I'm going to join the "Windows 8 is going to fail" boat. It's simply too big of a change; PC users have (more or less) been using the same interface for over 17 years, and all of sudden everything is all slick and gesture-oriented, with the desktop not being the "hub" of the computer. They're changing too much too fast, and I don't think it's going to catch on with the average user.

irDigital0l
Oct 21, 2012, 11:12 PM
Yea...for PC

what was Microsoft thinking...

I was going to buy my first laptop (Windows) but now its gonna be a Macbook Air.

I rather take my chances with OS X than Windows 8.

DingleButt
Oct 21, 2012, 11:26 PM
Yea...for PC

what was Microsoft thinking...

I was going to buy my first laptop (Windows) but now its gonna be a Macbook Air.

I rather take my chances with OS X than Windows 8.

Or you could maybe try it on your current computer using the 90 day enterprise version on an extra partition and see for sure. ;)

Why is this scary (My Win 8 desktop where I run it 80% of the time until I wanna play around in Metro)

http://i.imgur.com/es5zZl.png (http://imgur.com/es5zZ)

ixodes
Oct 21, 2012, 11:29 PM
MS doesn't need a blockbuster success. They'll make the needed changes & be just fine.

irDigital0l
Oct 22, 2012, 12:20 AM
Or you could maybe try it on your current computer using the 90 day enterprise version on an extra partition and see for sure. ;)

Why is this scary (My Win 8 desktop where I run it 80% of the time until I wanna play around in Metro)

Image (http://imgur.com/es5zZ)

LOL

I did try it (the demo/beta version)

I switched back to Windows 7 the next day.

DingleButt
Oct 22, 2012, 12:23 AM
LOL

I did try it (the demo/beta version)

I switched back to Windows 7 the next day.
So you didnt REALLY try it...

irDigital0l
Oct 22, 2012, 12:27 AM
So you didnt REALLY try it...

I did try it.

There were tons of reviews and guides showing all the new stuff in Windows 8.

I tried them, didn't like anything.

Switched back.

supervelous
Oct 22, 2012, 07:16 AM
I'm interested in Windows 8 because of one aspect that's not covered (well) in the market currently, at least not to my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong).

I haven't been able to justify a tablet purchase, because $500 to me is a bit much for a media consumption device that I don't think I'd use all the time (I have game consoles, big screen TV's and my laptop at home in addition to my smartphone).

Also, I like to record gaming footage and use editing software to make Youtube videos. And use MS Office for spreadsheets, word processing, etc.

I am currently "due" for a new laptop, I bought my current laptop in 2008 and have started thinking about purchasing a new one.

SO, what I think MS might be able to help me out tremendously with in Windows 8, is a tablet that doubles as a new PC. This allows me to still do work when I need to, then disconnect from the keyboard/dock and use it on my couch or in bed to watch vids, surf the web, etc.

Night Spring
Oct 22, 2012, 02:16 PM
SO, what I think MS might be able to help me out tremendously with in Windows 8, is a tablet that doubles as a new PC. This allows me to still do work when I need to, then disconnect from the keyboard/dock and use it on my couch or in bed to watch vids, surf the web, etc.

I think that is the ideal that we all want. However, looking at all the Windows 8 tablet-laptop hybrids on the offer, I don't think we are quite there yet. The ones where the keyboards flip over or slide under to go into tablet mode will be too thick and heavy to be comfortable as a tablet. The ones where the keyboards detach -- you'll be forever debating whether to take the keyboard with you or not, and finding you have lugged around the keyboard only to not use it, or finding that you have left it at home the one time you need it. The only product that shows any promise is Microsoft Surface, but the screen size is a bit small for use as a full laptop, and nobody knows how well that keyboard cover really works.

I think I'm sticking to the iPad + MacBook Air combo for the foreseeable future. Your mileage may vary.

MacRumorUser
Oct 22, 2012, 03:36 PM
Dependent entirely on the Surface Pro's PEN support, which if has 1024 levels of pressure, I'd actually buy one for Corel Painter and Sketch Book Pro and replace my MBA.

I had considered a modbook pro but it's WAY over priced for what I want it to do.

I currently use a Cintiq 21UX for illustrating, but would love a portable that did the same with the same level of clarity/detail.

So whilst I'm not convinced by Windows RT, I am ready to drop €800-1000 on a Surface Pro & windows 8 pro if it gets the pen support up to scratch.

It would probably replace my MBA & iPad (I'm also considering an ipad Mini or a Nexus 7 imminently depending on whats announced tomorrow to replace my ipad 3 for ebook reading and some gaming)

Renzatic
Oct 22, 2012, 04:37 PM
Dependent entirely on the Surface Pro's PEN support, which if has 1024 levels of pressure, I'd actually buy one for Corel Painter and Sketch Book Pro and replace my MBA.

Based on some rumor I read...I dunno...somewhere, I think it only supports 512 levels of pressure. It won't be as good as your Cintiq, but still fairly decent.

MacRumorUser
Oct 22, 2012, 04:56 PM
Based on some rumor I read...I dunno...somewhere, I think it only supports 512 levels of pressure. It won't be as good as your Cintiq, but still fairly decent.

Hopefully another manufacturer comes up with one with more sensitivity, but I do like the surfaces design so may just have to put up with the 512 levels. Will obviously wait for hands on testing though :)

ChazUK
Oct 26, 2012, 11:23 AM
Well, despite my criticisms, I've bought it and am going to try my best to get used to it. Some compelling positives in this thread have encouraged me to do so. :D

Fresh install (via the downloader), just deleting the Windows.old folder as I had everything I neededbacked up to an external HDD and Google Drive. iTunes is restoring all my music from an external hard drive too.

Going to give it a good chance again after using the 90 day trial version.

Eidorian
Oct 26, 2012, 12:49 PM
I would pick it up but I am between hardware cycles. I could go with a Core i7 3820, Vishera, or just upgrade to Haswell next year. Now I might go out and pick up one of these notebooks (http://www.techspot.com/news/50612-asus-reveals-14-inch-rog-g46vw-gaming-notebook-with-i7-gtx-660m.html) instead and it is going to have Windows 8.

Cod3rror
Oct 26, 2012, 05:37 PM
Windows 8 has such a wonderful concept. In concept it is a fantastic idea.

The UI though... Ho. RRi. Ble.

Not only is the start UI terrible, they ruined the desktop too. You cannot make any customizations to the desktop UI. Transparency is gone, you cannot make the edges(boarder padding in Settings) thinner.

The Metro is atrocious, the whole side scrolling is just a terrible idea, such a bad way to acquire information.

You cannot backup Metro apps, you don't get anything like ipa files, so if you're offline, you won't be able to reinstall apps. If Microsoft takes down an app, it's gone, even if you've paid for it, you cannot recover it. You're completely in the air.

Windows 8 could've been an incredible OS, truly a revolutionary OS that would work everywhere and even on the phones in couple of years... you'd dock a your phone to a dock with a screen, keyboard and a mouse attached and a real full OS opened, undock and it'd switch into a mobile OS. But Microsoft ruined it.

Night Spring
Oct 26, 2012, 07:13 PM
.You cannot backup Metro apps, you don't get anything like ipa files, so if you're offline, you won't be able to reinstall apps. If Microsoft takes down an app, it's gone, even if you've paid for it, you cannot recover it. You're completely in the air.

Seriously??? I hadn't realized this. What about when you download them to a desktop, there's no way to back them up from there? But then, I suppose there's no way to install them from a desktop to a Win8 or RT tablet. Hmmmmm...

Cod3rror
Oct 26, 2012, 07:31 PM
Seriously??? I hadn't realized this. What about when you download them to a desktop, there's no way to back them up from there? But then, I suppose there's no way to install them from a desktop to a Win8 or RT tablet. Hmmmmm...

You cannot download them to desktop, the process is completely transparent and you cannot do anything at all about it.

Cannot back them up, cannot keep them, Microsoft has absolute and total control and lock on you.

Night Spring
Oct 26, 2012, 07:43 PM
You cannot download them to desktop, the process is completely transparent and you cannot do anything at all about it.

Cannot back them up, cannot keep them, Microsoft has absolute and total control and lock on you.

Well, if you have an Win8 desktop (or laptop), then when you install a Metro app, the files for that app end up somewhere on your hard drive, right?

DingleButt
Oct 26, 2012, 07:46 PM
Well, if you have an Win8 desktop (or laptop), then when you install a Metro app, the files for that app end up somewhere on your hard drive, right?

They are under Program Files>Windows Apps but the folder is locked so unless/until someone finds a way to unlock it, they may as well not be there.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 07:49 PM
They are under Program Files>Windows Apps but the folder is locked so unless/until someone finds a way to unlock it, they may as well not be there.

Dumb question, but has anyone tried "take ownership" yet?

SA Spyder
Oct 27, 2012, 01:57 AM
Dumb question, but has anyone tried "take ownership" yet?

Ding ding ding. It's stupidly easy to gain access to "locked" folders. It's Windows.

Yes the files are in a folder, and yes it's very easy to back them up. Copy and paste. That's about it.


Been using Windows 8 for a few days now. I can finally feel the speed of the i7 in my MacBook. OSX was truly hogging it down in a massive way. Windows 8 boots in quarter the time and is generally smoother, quicker, more fluid, and more efficient at just about everything I can think of except maybe iTunes app. The shininess deceived me.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 02:15 AM
Ding ding ding. It's stupidly easy to gain access to "locked" folders. It's Windows.

Yes the files are in a folder, and yes it's very easy to back them up. Copy and paste. That's about it.



Your making an assumption about windows RT based on windows 8 file structure. It's possible that in windows RT the option to do that is greyed out / unavailable.

mKTank
Oct 27, 2012, 12:38 PM
Your making an assumption about windows RT based on windows 8 file structure. It's possible that in windows RT the option to do that is greyed out / unavailable.

Nope, it's not "greyed out / unavailable." Microsoft never operates that way.


And if it turns out that they do, you should know how excessively clever Windows hackers are in getting anything they need working. A simple registry edit here or there. That's it.


Basically, this is nothing like the iPad where it's a device that depends on another computer to access filesystem, to hack, etc. This is a Windows tablet. Everything is already available directly on it. You could hack the iPad with it (provided an RT port of redsn0w comes out). You get the point.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 01:01 PM
Nope, it's not "greyed out / unavailable." Microsoft never operates that way.

Again your guessing and not basing this on fact. Please don't pass guesswork or assumptions as fact.



Basically, this is nothing like the iPad where it's a device that depends on another computer to access filesystem, to hack, etc. This is a Windows tablet. Everything is already available directly on it.

No I'm afraid that is wrong. A lot of system tools have been removed from windows RT.




Then we get to the rub of the matter....

Assuming then in the remote chance they manage to the jailbreak/hack windows RT to allow you to install an application. Then what ?

The application still cant work or function as its not for ARM architecture, its compiled for X86/X64 and unless your going to recompile the entire application and re-architecture it to run on ARM then jailbreaking the surface would have been entirely redundant.

So what exactly are you going to do with that hacked Windows RT ?

AnonMac50
Oct 27, 2012, 01:46 PM
How so? Plenty of OEMs kept installing XP post-vista and MS had to extend the support period for Windows XP.

Windows 7 is only 3 years old and XP was 5-6 years old at the time of Vista's release....

Windows 7 won't be going anywhere for quite a while I should think.

----------



Nice try. Win2k was not a consumer targeted release and win98 and win2k are not even on the same OS lines (NT line vs Win 3.1 line).

The comparison you should be making is XP to Vista (5-6 years) but then even during the 3 year period between Vista and 7 many OEMs were still providing Windows XP.


Replace 2000 with ME (which was released a few months later than 2000.

----------

It is them forcing people to use it. You could disable the Metro screen and bring back the old Start menu in the old developer preview via a registry hack, but they removed the work around afterwards.

...by completely removing the old start menu from the OS completely.

Though I do have one question. Yeah, the new Metro start screen does look different, but it performs exactly the same otherwise. To me, other than it quickly filling up the whole screen for a second, there are no disadvantages in using it. Why does everyone want the old start menu back so bad when the replacement works just as well?

They resist change. Many don't want change, and they probably don't even know it (through their subconscious mind).

mKTank
Oct 27, 2012, 02:11 PM
Again your guessing and not basing this on fact. Please don't pass guesswork or assumptions as fact.




No I'm afraid that is wrong. A lot of system tools have been removed from windows RT.




Then we get to the rub of the matter....

Assuming then in the remote chance they manage to the jailbreak/hack windows RT to allow you to install an application. Then what ?

The application still cant work or function as its not for ARM architecture, its compiled for X86/X64 and unless your going to recompile the entire application and re-architecture it to run on ARM then jailbreaking the surface would have been entirely redundant.

So what exactly are you going to do with that hacked Windows RT ?

You'll see. I won't bother explaining because people like you have a very limited vision. Windows RT is still Windows, and all of those missing tools and other limitations can be removed by a simple registry edit.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 02:17 PM
You'll see. I won't bother explaining because people like you have a very limited vision. Windows RT is still Windows, and all of those missing tools and other limitations can be removed by a simple registry edit.

How convenient (no need to prove the nonsense your posting with real evidence), we wont be able to understand!! Patronising much ? :rolleyes:

You can not re-engineer software developed for x86 to run on completely different architecture by a mere registry hack. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

mKTank
Oct 27, 2012, 02:20 PM
How convenient (no need to prove the nonsense your posting with real evidence), we wont be able to understand!! Patronising much ? :rolleyes:

You can not re-engineer software developed for x86 to run on completely different architecture by a mere registry hack. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Never said that. I said limitations can be removed by registry hacks. And frankly, this being MacRumors, I'm not sure people here understand a whole lot about computers. No offence, but there's a difference between not wanting to waste my time and simply running away from an argument. I really don't have the energy to teach a blind man colours.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 02:24 PM
Never said that. I said limitations can be removed by registry hacks. And frankly, this being MacRumors, I'm not sure people here understand a whole lot about computers. No offence, but there's a difference between not wanting to waste my time and simply running away from an argument. I really don't have the energy to teach a blind man colours.

And the patronisation continues even more....

i'm a blind man.. oh right. I'm a Microsoft most valued professional, I wouldn't be able to understand ? Where's your acknowledgment of talent/expertise from Microsoft then ? :rolleyes:

mKTank
Oct 27, 2012, 02:33 PM
And the patronisation continues even more....

i'm a blind man.. oh right. I'm a Microsoft most valued professional, I wouldn't be able to understand ? Where's your acknowledgment of talent/expertise from Microsoft then ? :rolleyes:

Ugh, stop.

The guys at XDA already got desktop apps running on RT. Windows is compiled for ARM but desktop exe's can still run if they have signatures. Of course, spoofing these signatures is the biggest challenge but it's doable and has already been done to some degree, not even a week after release. There's already regedits to remove open app limitations, to completely customize tiles, and this hack to run desktop apps will be out soon I bet. The alternative is run a discreet emulator. But that won't be necessary anymore.


Be a big boy and do some of your own research. I'm not wiping your ass anymore,

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 02:36 PM
Be a big boy and do some of your own research. I'm not wiping your ass anymore,

Classy.... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 05:02 PM
The guys at XDA already got desktop apps running on RT.

Where did you hear that? This thread (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1885399), for instance, seems to be full of people saying it cannot be done. Please post link to your info source.

Torq
Oct 27, 2012, 05:27 PM
Ugh, stop.

The guys at XDA already got desktop apps running on RT. Windows is compiled for ARM but desktop exe's can still run if they have signatures. Of course, spoofing these signatures is the biggest challenge but it's doable and has already been done to some degree, not even a week after release. There's already regedits to remove open app limitations, to completely customize tiles, and this hack to run desktop apps will be out soon I bet. The alternative is run a discreet emulator. But that won't be necessary anymore.


Be a big boy and do some of your own research. I'm not wiping your ass anymore,

Desktop .EXEs most certainly CANNOT run under Windows RT.

You could recompile the source codefor a desktop application, get that signed, and provided you only used APIs present in Windows RT and get that to run (perhaps) but that's a far cry from running X86/X64 .EXE binaries to run.

You'd need to emulate an X86 processor to do that and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to get any current ARM core doing that at anything close to a rate that would make current X86 software even vaguely usable.

Oh, and registry hacks are not magic. The MOST they can do is enable/disable/reconfigure functionality that exists in the OS already (and that is using those registry entries to set its options) but for which there is no user-facing means to manipulate the configuration.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 05:48 PM
Windows 8 has such a wonderful concept. In concept it is a fantastic idea.

The UI though... Ho. RRi. Ble.

Not only is the start UI terrible, they ruined the desktop too. You cannot make any customizations to the desktop UI. Transparency is gone, you cannot make the edges(boarder padding in Settings) thinner.

The Metro is atrocious, the whole side scrolling is just a terrible idea, such a bad way to acquire information.

You cannot backup Metro apps, you don't get anything like ipa files, so if you're offline, you won't be able to reinstall apps. If Microsoft takes down an app, it's gone, even if you've paid for it, you cannot recover it. You're completely in the air.

Windows 8 could've been an incredible OS, truly a revolutionary OS that would work everywhere and even on the phones in couple of years... you'd dock a your phone to a dock with a screen, keyboard and a mouse attached and a real full OS opened, undock and it'd switch into a mobile OS. But Microsoft ruined it.

Have you tried any of this or are you guessing? Because i do know from playing with a W8 laptop today that you CAN change the UI back to Desktop mode as you have used on all other Windows OS's if you dont like the tiles.

mKTank
Oct 27, 2012, 07:22 PM
Desktop .EXEs most certainly CANNOT run under Windows RT.

You could recompile the source codefor a desktop application, get that signed, and provided you only used APIs present in Windows RT and get that to run (perhaps) but that's a far cry from running X86/X64 .EXE binaries to run.

You'd need to emulate an X86 processor to do that and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to get any current ARM core doing that at anything close to a rate that would make current X86 software even vaguely usable.

Oh, and registry hacks are not magic. The MOST they can do is enable/disable/reconfigure functionality that exists in the OS already (and that is using those registry entries to set its options) but for which there is no user-facing means to manipulate the configuration.

Right. Sorry for confusion. Yes it needs recompiling. However work on a discreet emulator is being done so it'll be a moot point that there's minimal app support for RT.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 07:55 PM
Have you tried any of this or are you guessing? Because i do know from playing with a W8 laptop today that you CAN change the UI back to Desktop mode as you have used on all other Windows OS's if you dont like the tiles.

I may have asked this already in this or another thread, but how do you change the UI back to desktop mode? When I tried a Win8 preview, the tiles appeared every time you booted up, and also when you wanted to launch a new app that you hadn't yet pinned to the desktop taskbar. Is there a way around this in the final release version?

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 08:24 PM
You mean get rid of the start screen? There's no way you can.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 08:40 PM
You mean get rid of the start screen? There's no way you can.

That's what I thought. But then, what does Vegastouch mean when he says "you CAN change the UI back to Desktop mode"? I know Win8 has a desktop mode, but in my experience, going into and out of desktop mode is dependent on what app you are running at that particular moment. It's not really a user choice -- user choice would be: "Oh, I want to go into desktop mode, so I'll click on this, and I'm in desktop mode and I don't have to see the tiles again until I want to." No, you have to deal with the tiles every so often. That, to me is not "changing the UI to desktop mode." You are just in desktop mode because you happen to be running an app that runs in that mode.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 08:47 PM
That's what I thought. But then, what does Vegastouch mean when he says "you CAN change the UI back to Desktop mode"? I know Win8 has a desktop mode, but in my experience, going into and out of desktop mode is dependent on what app you are running at that particular moment. It's not really a user choice -- user choice would be: "Oh, I want to go into desktop mode, so I'll click on this, and I'm in desktop mode and I don't have to see the tiles again until I want to." No, you have to deal with the tiles every so often. That, to me is not "changing the UI to desktop mode." You are just in desktop mode because you happen to be running an app that runs in that mode.

If you don't run metro apps, you only have to deal with the tiles about as often as you do the start menu. I know I'll only hit it up about 3-4 times a day at most, and only when I need to.

What are you running that keeps kicking you into it?

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 09:25 PM
What are you running that keeps kicking you into it?

Right now, nothing, as I haven't gone back to it for a while. :p

But I remember, I installed the preview in a VM, then started playing around with the various system settings, and finding that some were in Metro and some were in the traditional UI, and you couldn't really do a lot without being switched from one mode to the other.

I understand that once I have everything set up and all my programs installed, then I won't have to go back and forth between the two UIs as often, but I was like, what's the point? What do I get on my desktop that I don't already have with Win7? And the answer seemed to be "Nothing worth the hassle."

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 09:34 PM
I may have asked this already in this or another thread, but how do you change the UI back to desktop mode? When I tried a Win8 preview, the tiles appeared every time you booted up, and also when you wanted to launch a new app that you hadn't yet pinned to the desktop taskbar. Is there a way around this in the final release version?

You just touch a button on the screen and it flipped to desktop mode and the tiles went away and it had a regular desktop theme. The Best Buy salesman showed me that. He said you can put it in desktop mode if you prefer it to the tiles which i thought was a cool feature and will be a selling point for many who might not like change all at once.
He touched a button a couple of times but sorry, i dont have one so i cant direct you to the button since i dont have one in front of me.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 09:49 PM
You just touch a button on the screen and it flipped to desktop mode and the tiles went away and it had a regular desktop theme. The Best Buy salesman showed me that. He said you can put it in desktop mode if you prefer it to the tiles which i thought was a cool feature and will be a selling point for many who might not like change all at once.
He touched a button a couple of times but sorry, i dont have one so i cant direct you to the button since i dont have one in front of me.

Ah, so you didn't actually get to use it. Like I've been saying, when you actually try to do something, you keep getting flipped between the desktop and the tiles. To me, that's not really having choice between desktop and tiles, it's more like being at the mercy of the OS, which picks the mode you are in at any given time.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 09:55 PM
Right now, nothing, as I haven't gone back to it for a while. :p

But I remember, I installed the preview in a VM, then started playing around with the various system settings, and finding that some were in Metro and some were in the traditional UI, and you couldn't really do a lot without being switched from one mode to the other.

I understand that once I have everything set up and all my programs installed, then I won't have to go back and forth between the two UIs as often, but I was like, what's the point? What do I get on my desktop that I don't already have with Win7? And the answer seemed to be "Nothing worth the hassle."

It's more like everything has a metro equivalent, and how you access it depends on which you get. You go from the desktop, you get the old desktop app, the charms bar tends to prefer the metro equivalent.

Yeah, it can be a confusing as hell at first, but once you kinda get the hang of things, it's actually a little quicker than it used to be. Everything has its place, weird as it might seem at first glance. See, you have to quit thinking of the new start screen as "the other UI". You can access it and hit up your programs faster than you used to be able to (or at least I can), and you can pin more to it than you used to be able to. You have more at your fingertips, more easily accessed.

Plus, if you go down to the bottom left corner and rightclick, you get this...

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/power_user_menu.jpg

...all the important Windows settings, now all in one easy to access place. This is all desktop right here. It doesn't take you to Metro at all.

Which kinda makes me think this is the worst problem with Windows 8. It isn't that it's bad for a desktop user. It's arguably slightly better and little more efficient (YMMV again). But it sure as hell doesn't go out of its way to show you that. You're a good example, because you've everything you want right there, not even a swipe and a click away, but you kept doing things the hard way cuz the alternative didn't make itself apparent.

I think that's what all the cool kids mean when they say discoverability is low.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 10:14 PM
Which kinda makes me think this is the worst problem with Windows 8. It isn't that it's bad for a desktop user. It's arguably slightly better and little more efficient (YMMV again). But it sure as hell doesn't go out of its way to show you that. You're a good example, because you've everything you want right there, not even a swipe and a click away, but you kept doing things the hard way cuz the alternative didn't make itself apparent.

I think that's what all the cool kids mean when they say discoverability is low.

Yes, exactly. That's a handy menu, but I never thought of right-clicking in that corner!

I did get the sense that Win8 was slightly faster and more stable than Win7, and I see what you mean about stop thinking about the tiles as the "other UI," but it's going to take a mental adjustment to get to that point. I think a good comparison is all the people complaining about Mission Control in Lion / Mountain Lion. I have no problems with that, because I never used the multi-desktop system in Snow Leopard, whatever it was called, but I totally symphasize with people who were used to the old interface not being able to get used to the new one. And I think that's how I feel about the tiles in Win8. In fact, I like the Windows Classic start menu from way back when, and I don't think I ever got used to anything else. Up to Vista, there were ways to revert to the Classic menu, and in Win7, I've been pretty much ignoring most of the Start Menu.

If I *had* to use Win8, I'd probably find a way to make it work for me, but I'm not going out of my way to upgrade to it!

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 10:22 PM
Ah, so you didn't actually get to use it. Like I've been saying, when you actually try to do something, you keep getting flipped between the desktop and the tiles. To me, that's not really having choice between desktop and tiles, it's more like being at the mercy of the OS, which picks the mode you are in at any given time.

Yeah.. i went by what they said but yes, using it may be another story. If you can use it like a desktop, that would be awesome. I would get used to the tiles but for some who dontlike change, it would be cool. I was going to say my Wife but she has a Windows phone so she would be ok with it.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 10:44 PM
Yeah.. i went by what they said but yes, using it may be another story. If you can use it like a desktop, that would be awesome. I would get used to the tiles but for some who dontlike change, it would be cool. I was going to say my Wife but she has a Windows phone so she would be ok with it.

It's not so much the tiles, as you keep flipping back between desktop and tiles. I think I'd be okay with something like Windows phone, where everything is tiles.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 11:06 PM
If I *had* to use Win8, I'd probably find a way to make it work for me, but I'm not going out of my way to upgrade to it!

They way I see it, it's only 40 bucks, so...eh, might as well get it now while it's cheap.

It's like Technarchy said in the other thread, they went a little too far with keeping everything out of the way, which makes it feel like an easter egg hunt. But once you climb the learning curve and figure out where everything is and what does what, it's surprisingly smooth.

MacRumorUser
Oct 28, 2012, 02:23 AM
You just touch a button on the screen and it flipped to desktop mode and the tiles went away and it had a regular desktop theme. The Best Buy salesman showed me that. He said you can put it in desktop mode if you prefer it to the tiles which i thought was a cool feature and will be a selling point for many who might not like change all at once.
He touched a button a couple of times but sorry, i dont have one so i cant direct you to the button since i dont have one in front of me.

Tut tut Vegas Touch. You should not post something as definitive fact simply because a guy at Best Buy told you so ;), when people here who have even running windows 8 for months have already explained the only way to use desktop mode solely is to install a third party start menu replacement hack.

Originally in the earlier beta's & preview the old start menu was still buried within the system. Folks quickly realised this and posted command line / registry hack that would allow users to disable the metro start menu and use the older one meaning you literally could work like more traditional windows.

However Microsoft decided then to remove it (the old one) completely from the OS meaning that no longer was there a hack to use it instead of the metro one.

So even though there is a desktop mode the chances are you will still be flicking back and forth to metro start.

There are third party software solutions that add a new 'older style menu' to the desktop mode however.

The guy at Best Buy did give you information that was only half accurate, and this is a clear example of what we were saying on the windows 8 confusion thread. That staff in retail outlets will often give misleading or wrong info to consumers causing buyer confusion.

I actually just wish Microsoft had left the old style start menu as an option but do understand clearly they have invested the majority of their development into Metro and its apps, and are banking considerably in the Windows App Store being the real banker with windows 8 for ongoing revenue streams, and they of course want developer to create apps for it. Allowing consumers to bypas it completely is counter productive to the clear vision financially that Microsoft have for windows 8.

I've been using the final version of Windows 8 for a number of weeks, and can live with metro, my only ongoing criticism is that I still do not like the feel of using metro applications with a mouse or trackpad, as its clear they are designed with touch in mind.

I do have a concern that Metro start is not very appropriate for businesses / corporations and would have thought a revised start menu hybrid would have at least been included in Win 8 Enterprise version. But again this is not the case.

mantan
Oct 28, 2012, 10:16 AM
I upgraded my main system to Windows 8 on Friday afternoon. It had been running Vista 64 for 5 years, the other two PC's in our house run Windows 7. I'd never been a big fan of Vista and for $40 it seemed like a good chance to upgrade.

General thoughts:

MS HAS to do a better job of helping people with the UI transition. It's just not intuitive for anybody who's used regular Windows (or iOS or other mainstream operating system.)

They give you the tiny breadcrumb that navigating to the corner will do something. Once you realize how universal that command is and what it does in each corner, things become a bit clearer.

It's disconcerting to lose most of your programs, trying to reinstall and set up new tiles..figuring out what tiles are available. It's a sloppy, messy conversion. It was a fun way to kill a few hours for me...but there is NO way I'd put this on my wife or kid's computer.

The App store is bare. I can see the potential...but it needs some time to mature.

The biggest question I have is if any company wants to drop this in an enterprise environment. It would literally grind work to a halt if some of my coworkers had to start figuring out this new system. You couldn't drop this on anyone's desktop without providing some deliberate upfront training. And even then, there will be a drop off in productivity as employees get used to it.

I can see a big push for an Enterprise version that works solely in the desktop mode.

I hated it the first hour. I was weary of it after 3. It's starting to grow on me a bit now. It was a bold move by Microsoft. Time will tell.

Technarchy
Oct 28, 2012, 11:19 AM
Best Buy was certainly busy yesterday with people taking Windows 8 for spin.

How this translates to consumer sales remains to be seen.

My home PC died about 3 months ago and I've been too lazy to repair it. I've been using my work PC for...work; at home I've been rolling with my iPad, and iPhone only.

The iPad has worked well. Maybe too well. It's worked well enough for me not to bother rushing out to get a new PC, or Mac.

Windows 8 wont fail because Windows is essential to global computing.

Vegastouch
Oct 28, 2012, 12:32 PM
Tut tut Vegas Touch. You should not post something as definitive fact simply because a guy at Best Buy told you so ;), when people here who have even running windows 8 for months have already explained the only way to use desktop mode solely is to install a third party start menu replacement hack.

Originally in the earlier beta's & preview the old start menu was still buried within the system. Folks quickly realised this and posted command line / registry hack that would allow users to disable the metro start menu and use the older one meaning you literally could work like more traditional windows.

However Microsoft decided then to remove it (the old one) completely from the OS meaning that no longer was there a hack to use it instead of the metro one.

So even though there is a desktop mode the chances are you will still be flicking back and forth to metro start.

There are third party software solutions that add a new 'older style menu' to the desktop mode however.

The guy at Best Buy did give you information that was only half accurate, and this is a clear example of what we were saying on the windows 8 confusion thread. That staff in retail outlets will often give misleading or wrong info to consumers causing buyer confusion.

I actually just wish Microsoft had left the old style start menu as an option but do understand clearly they have invested the majority of their development into Metro and its apps, and are banking considerably in the Windows App Store being the real banker with windows 8 for ongoing revenue streams, and they of course want developer to create apps for it. Allowing consumers to bypas it completely is counter productive to the clear vision financially that Microsoft have for windows 8.

I've been using the final version of Windows 8 for a number of weeks, and can live with metro, my only ongoing criticism is that I still do not like the feel of using metro applications with a mouse or trackpad, as its clear they are designed with touch in mind.

I do have a concern that Metro start is not very appropriate for businesses / corporations and would have thought a revised start menu hybrid would have at least been included in Win 8 Enterprise version. But again this is not the case.

He didnt just tell me so. He showed me and did it.Granted he didnt go to any apps in desktop mode so no i cant relate if it changes back. In anycase, i think i will adapt to W8 fairly easy when i get it. I aint scared....lol

SlCKB0Y
Oct 29, 2012, 10:18 AM
Right. Sorry for confusion. Yes it needs recompiling.

Confusion? there was no confusion there. You decided to be patronising and arrogant and you were *wrong*.

Oh, and I think you'll find they don't need only "recompiling" they need to be ported.



----------

The alternative is run a discreet emulator. But that won't be necessary anymore.

Be a big boy and do some of your own research. I'm not wiping your ass anymore,

hmmm....

----------

However work on a discreet emulator is being done so it'll be a moot point that there's minimal app support for RT.

:rolleyes:

Just like that huh?

mKTank
Oct 29, 2012, 11:43 AM
Confusion? there was no confusion there. You decided to be patronising and arrogant and you were *wrong*.

Oh, and I think you'll find they don't need only "recompiling" they need to be ported.



----------



hmmm....

----------



:rolleyes:

Just like that huh?
XDA still managed to run a desktop app on RT after recompiling, though. If these guys here are so hell-bent on the contrary, then fine. I'm going to side with the guys at XDA about Windows-related things rather than believing *scoffs* MacRumors. It needs recompiling indeed and a signature. After these two things are made easy and smooth, RT won't have any issues after devs simply recompile their apps, as MS supplied invaluable tools for automated porting. Until then, or in case it never works out, there will be discreet emulators. Open-source apps like VLC are obviously first to get this treatment since the community can simply do it. It's all a simple recompile away for most programs, made especially easy on C++ programs.

I know the concept of accepting the truth and changing opinions is foreign to you, being an Apple fan and all. It's a better route than lying to myself, no? Thanks for reviving an old argument for the purpose of a temporary ego boost, as opposed to actually arguing something. If you still think I'm wrong, go yell at the people on XDA on how they're wrong and how some server guy knows more than they do.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 03:18 PM
Did anyone recently get their hands on Windows 8? If so, what are your initial thoughts?

DingleButt
Oct 29, 2012, 04:23 PM
Did anyone recently get their hands on Windows 8? If so, what are your initial thoughts?

Ive had Windows 8 since the Dev Preview months ago and have been running RTM for several weeks at least.

Its better than 7, but takes a quick getting used to if you want to use the new Metro/Microsoft UI side. The good news is you can pretty much always run it as an improved Windows 7 with things like the better Explorer, quick functions, better performance, better multi-monitor support, etc.

I will not be going back to Windows 7.

The true benefit of Windows 8 is it brings out the new touch based laptop, AIO, tablet, and convertible market by offering up the Microsoft Design portion of the OS. I checked out the Yoga 13 and the new touch ultrabooks and I really want one now, but Im not ready for an upgrade. There is something really nice about the multitasking on a touch enabled Win8 device. I showed my dad some laptops while I was home this weekend and he really liked the Yoga 13 and is getting it sometime this week to replace his old WinXP tablet for work probably. It was actually nicer than I expected; even my GF who came along, a huge Apple fan, thinks Microsoft's idea for computers is better than Apples for once.

So in summation, its like 7, but with some improvements and polishing and also offers up the Metro/Microsoft UI that can work with mouse, but really shines with touch. I still use the Metro apps with my laptop, but 90% of my time is on the desktop side.

If we gave Windows 7 a 7/10, Windows 8 is an 8/10 for desktop and a 9/10 for touch IMO.

Cod3rror
Oct 29, 2012, 04:44 PM
Did anyone recently get their hands on Windows 8? If so, what are your initial thoughts?

In short: Great idea/concept, very poorly executed.

This could've been HUGE! Microsoft should've just called it "Windows" and that's it.

The Touch UI is not very good, not intuitive, side scrolling is very a very good way to scan for information.

Simple example, you need multiple clicks to start playing a song AND then multiple clicks to pause it.

As I said, the concept is really good, this type of a UI combination can downscale even to a phone... it's where the technology is headed anyway Desktops->Laptops->Tablets->Phones.

You could dock your phone and use the desktop, full OS Windows, then if you had to go somewhere, you could just pick up your phone and it'd switch to the mobile UI, with browser's open tabs, everything transferring over.

I want Apple to give this concept a shot, an OSX-iOS hybrid.

mKTank
Oct 29, 2012, 05:03 PM
Yep. Light years ahead of OSX in speed, UI, app support, everything. OSX is getting stale real fast.

apollo1444
Oct 29, 2012, 05:15 PM
I installed it on my machine and right away tried to avoid that metro sillyness, had tons of issues with games and things like that

core i7 cpu
HD 5770
8 GB RAM

insane cpu usage and memory !! I went back to windows 7!

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 05:22 PM
You're about the only person who's run back to 7 due to resource usage. One thing you can say about 8, it is much faster and thinner.

Course we're kinda coming full circle here. When 7 came out, we had tons of people talk about how bad it sucked, and how they "installed it, played with it for 5 minutes, went back to XP". I think the phrase "lipstick on a pig" was said slightly more than 3,452,162 times on Mac forums. Everyone said 7 sucked.

Now 7 is MS' golden child. The OS they got right. 8 sucks now. But when 9 comes out? Oh, it'll be the doom of Microsoft. The people will wail and gnash their teeth, screaming how they ruined everything good 8 brought to the table.

...and the circle of life closes.

TedM
Oct 29, 2012, 05:31 PM
I ended up getting it. They provided excellent pricing so I bought in. I can't say it will. So far it seems faster and I enjoy the way they interfaced with my mail, news, media ect.


Edit: I had no issues with steam or World of warcraft. However I did have to reinstall smite and that was a small hassle.

Eidorian
Oct 29, 2012, 05:31 PM
I installed it on my machine and right away tried to avoid that metro sillyness, had tons of issues with games and things like that

core i7 cpu
HD 5770
8 GB RAM

insane cpu usage and memory !! I went back to windows 7!Which games had issues?

ChazUK
Oct 29, 2012, 06:05 PM
Getting used to the new stuff. Installation went flawlessly and performance has been fantastic so far in the desktop. Been using very little in the way of Metro apps but I'm as happy as a pig in shi... crap in the Desktop mode.

Some of the Metro apps I've used seem to take an unusually long time to load which puts me off of them a bit.

Typswif2fingers
Oct 29, 2012, 06:21 PM
Bought a Pro version over the weekend. Using it on my iMac (Parallels 8)... I have nothing but positives about it. It is very very fast. Metro is such a good idea. Well done Microsoft.

Xiroteus
Oct 29, 2012, 07:04 PM
Coming from someone that loves Windows 7, I was able to pick it up for fifteen dollars so it was a must, tired it out for a day and overall I likely could have stuck with it, however there was one major issue for me, my program that allows me to stream content from the DVR does not work and that is how I watch everything.

File management is a bit odd, and that is something I do often, drag drop, save move, always doing that type of thing and I really have to jump back and forth with the metro UI and the desktop, a little awkward.

It is still good and I likely could tweak it, however I need that program to run. For now I shall stick with Windows 7.

A lot of the start programs do not apply to me, even ones I use do not work in the manner I require. A Skype app, merge accounts? No. Other services that I do not use etc.. I wanted to pin favorites on the start page yet you can only do that with IE, I use Chrome.

I like Windows yet it sounds like I do not from what I am saying above.

You're about the only person who's run back to 7 due to resource usage. One thing you can say about 8, it is much faster and thinner.

Course we're kinda coming full circle here. When 7 came out, we had tons of people talk about how bad it sucked, and how they "installed it, played with it for 5 minutes, went back to XP". I think the phrase "lipstick on a pig" was said slightly more than 3,452,162 times on Mac forums. Everyone said 7 sucked.

Now 7 is MS' golden child. The OS they got right. 8 sucks now. But when 9 comes out? Oh, it'll be the doom of Microsoft. The people will wail and gnash their teeth, screaming how they ruined everything good 8 brought to the table.

...and the circle of life closes.

People where that harsh on Windows 7?

I always loved it, nice upgrade from the dated XP and visa was so-so depending if your system had enough power.

ChazUK
Oct 30, 2012, 11:49 AM
4 million upgrades sold already.

http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/30/3576512/windows-8-upgrade-sales-four-million

Not bad at all!

MacRumorUser
Oct 30, 2012, 12:40 PM
Engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/30/windows-8-review/#continued) have a well written review. But the wrap up sums up exactly how I feel and I've been using it for the last two months.

Wrap-up

Though you could install Windows 8 on an older Win 7 system and use it solely with a mouse and keyboard, the market is filling up with touch-friendly PCs designed to be used with Win 8. These include traditional notebooks with touchscreens, as well as dockable tablets, all-in-ones with articulating displays, slider PCs and convertible laptops whose screens can twist and fold back into tablet mode. In general, we'd strongly recommend any of these over a PC that doesn't have a touchscreen.

What we've learned -- and what we couldn't fully appreciate before testing some of these new devices -- is that Windows 8 is at its best when you have the option of interacting with it using your fingers. It doesn't matter so much if you have a touchscreen, a modern touchpad or an external trackpad that supports Win 8 gestures. The point is, many of Windows 8's most enchanting features (the Charms Bar, etc.) are easy to use this way, but frustrating if all you have to work with is a mouse. If you have an older system whose touchpad won't support Windows 8 gestures, you might want to stick with Win 7 until you're ready to buy a new PC -- without that touch input, many of those new features will be lost on you. For people with more touch-friendly hardware, though, Windows 8 is easier to use than you may have feared. Its tablet-style apps, multitasking features and desktop enhancements add up to a balanced mix. It's an OS you can use seamlessly on a tablet, but with features like Snap, Switcher and File Explorer you might well be more productive than you ever were on an iPad or Android slate. Just don't lose faith as you're climbing your way across that learning curve.

Basically as I have found, to appreciate Windows 8 properly, a touch device of some description is best, with mouse and traditional trackpad as I have found myself to be a little cumbersome or jarring when in Metro.

Rigby
Oct 30, 2012, 01:35 PM
I installed Win 8 on one of my PCs over the weekend and I like it. It feels very fast (launching applications and booting, particluarly if you install it in UEFI mode), has improved security, and a number of detail improvements like the new task manager, explorer etc.

If you think about it though, what they did with Metro (i.e. starting to converge legacy desktop UI and new touch UI) isnt' really that different from what Apple did in Lion/ML. The start screen is conceptually similar to Launchpad, and OSX has had an appstore and fullscreen apps (which I find mostly useless for desktop systems with large screens) for a while now. MS just took it a small step further and "forced" the user to use it, while you can easily ignore it in OSX if you want.

In any case, while Metro may initially seem a bit artificial on a desktop, you get used to it quickly and it makes sense when you think about touch devices.

onthecouchagain
Oct 30, 2012, 01:48 PM
I think Windows 8 combined with touch screen all-in-ones that can tilt has the potential to really become something great.

apollo1444
Nov 4, 2012, 11:16 AM
Which games had issues?

battlefield 3 mainly which even with an HD 5770 runs amazing at 1080 almost maxed out (windows 7)
for some reason punkbuster believed I was cheating or I didn't have my punkbuster updated which obviously I did, it was horrible, I had disconnections every 10 minutes

I also noticed high cpu usage when using Portal 2

Eidorian
Nov 5, 2012, 12:18 PM
battlefield 3 mainly which even with an HD 5770 runs amazing at 1080 almost maxed out (windows 7)
for some reason punkbuster believed I was cheating or I didn't have my punkbuster updated which obviously I did, it was horrible, I had disconnections every 10 minutes

I also noticed high cpu usage when using Portal 2Flawless in Battlefield 3 here. This is even after switching from a GTX 460 to a HD 7950.

TheHateMachine
Nov 5, 2012, 12:58 PM
Picked up two copies for 16 bucks a piece. Gf's pc and mine running it. No issues, runs all my games and uses less resources. Pretty nifty.

apollo1444
Nov 5, 2012, 05:27 PM
Flawless in Battlefield 3 here. This is even after switching from a GTX 460 to a HD 7950.

great video card update

but I'm sure you'll lose frames a bit and performance maybe with windows 8 which to me is the most stupid OS i've ever seen

inspired by legos

Renzatic
Nov 5, 2012, 05:53 PM
but I'm sure you'll lose frames a bit and performance maybe with windows 8 which to me is the most stupid OS i've ever seen

Nah. Windows 8 actually performs a bit better than Win7 across the board. Sometimes by just a tiny bit, sometimes by quite a lot. Love or hate the new start screen, it is a much thinner, faster, more efficient OS.

apollo1444
Nov 5, 2012, 06:02 PM
Nah. Windows 8 actually performs a bit better than Win7 across the board. Sometimes by just a tiny bit, sometimes by quite a lot. Love or hate the new start screen, it is a much thinner, faster, more efficient OS.

yeah no wonder gaben said it was a disaster as well as blizzard

Renzatic
Nov 5, 2012, 06:06 PM
yeah no wonder gaben said it was a disaster as well as blizzard

Gaben? Like Gabe Newell? He doesn't like it because the Windows Store could take away sales from Steam, not becuase of any weird performance issues.

Blizzard? Probably the same reason.

Technarchy
Nov 5, 2012, 06:52 PM
I installed Win8 Pro on all my home PCS's this weekend.

Clean install off a USB drive.

So far, so good. Though, I will need a track pad or gesture mouse to really enjoy it.

Point and click on Windows 8...it sorta sucks. Slow, unintuitive. You need to be able to perform gestures to get the most out of it.

Renzatic
Nov 5, 2012, 07:42 PM
Point and click on Windows 8...it sorta sucks. Slow, unintuitive. You need to be able to perform gestures to get the most out of it.

Really just one gesture, the one to bring up the charm bar. You'll get used to it quick enough, just drop to the top right and drag down, or bottom right and swing up.

The only thing I find inefficient is the way the rightclick menu works in the start menu. I'm used to it appearing next to my mouse pointer, but there it pops up from the bottom of the screen.

Lara F
Nov 5, 2012, 11:36 PM
I must be one of the few who has no problems using Windows 8 with just the mouse. But then, even the excellent Mac trackpad hasn't been enough for me to ditch it on the MBA.

There are quirks, but I adjusted much better than I feared. I swear my Vaio's monitor looks much brighter in color (not just when on the Start screen), wifi seems to hold better and no Sony bloatware!!! :D So glad I selected personal files only to be transferred with the update. Overall, pretty impressed.

apollo1444
Nov 5, 2012, 11:57 PM
Gaben? Like Gabe Newell? He doesn't like it because the Windows Store could take away sales from Steam, not becuase of any weird performance issues.
they can submit steam in the windows store...yes a store within a store

SlCKB0Y
Nov 8, 2012, 12:50 AM
XDA still managed to run a desktop app on RT after recompiling, though.

I'd like to check this out.. got a link to the forum?

Also one to the Win32 -> WinRT emu project?

Technarchy
Nov 8, 2012, 02:23 AM
My PC is 4 years old and runs Windows 8 super smooth. No issues to report at all.

I'm not a huge fan of IE10, but Google Chrome runs great in the new UI.

All in all, I am not going back to Windows 7. I don't see a reason to.

RT is still dubious (I sorta get MSFT's thinking) but Window's 8 PRO is solid IMHO.

flameproof
Nov 8, 2012, 03:21 AM
Can you upgrade over an OEM version? The MS website isn't specific about that. I have Win 7 OEM, but rather have a full version in case I want to change a Mobo or something.

OSMac
Nov 8, 2012, 08:53 AM
Can you upgrade over an OEM version? The MS website isn't specific about that. I have Win 7 OEM, but rather have a full version in case I want to change a Mobo or something.

Should be fine, worked here.

I paid the $39 then burned the download to a DVD.
Used that DVD to upgrade my existing install.
I chose to leave and the programs as-is and everything just worked!

You also can wipe your drive and start fresh
it tells you during the process what will work and not .

I don't even think you have to buy it to get that report.

Windows 8 is the best OS I've ever used, took a couple days to adjust but no going back.
Love it best on tablets but its super fast even on my old Dell netbook, boots in seconds!

Even on the big screen desktop its great.

I think Apple has an issue going forward as once devs start filling that app store no reason for many to buy an iPad. Win 8 tablets will do it all for home , business whatever.

Sure Apple will counter, and they have nice head start but if MS can play this right they will succeed.

Eidorian
Nov 8, 2012, 11:21 AM
great video card update

but I'm sure you'll lose frames a bit and performance maybe with windows 8 which to me is the most stupid OS i've ever seen

inspired by legosTom's Hardware and a few others took a look at gaming and other performance metrics in a 7 vs. 8 showdown. They are both neck and neck with OpenCL being the only really major standout with Windows 8 losing a few points. Maybe Adobe should get to work on that.

I am on my Mechwarrior Online binge right now.

ChazUK
Nov 8, 2012, 12:04 PM
Can you upgrade over an OEM version? The MS website isn't specific about that. I have Win 7 OEM, but rather have a full version in case I want to change a Mobo or something.

I went from Windows 7 Pro OEM to Windows 8 Pro full fine. :)

Eidorian
Nov 8, 2012, 12:34 PM
I went from Windows 7 Pro OEM to Windows 8 Pro full fine. :)Heck, I hear people going from pirated Windows 7 to Windows 8 Pro for $15 when it worked for everyone. :rolleyes:

ChazUK
Nov 8, 2012, 12:46 PM
Heck, I hear people going from pirated Windows 7 to Windows 8 Pro for $15 when it worked for everyone. :rolleyes:

At least they are now legit and MS now has some monies! :cool:

Less unpatched Windows machines (due to activation/WGA fears) online the better too.

preyan
Nov 8, 2012, 02:34 PM
I think it is fantastic and I have not bothered with MS in about 10 years. It did catch my attention and that says something. It's definitely a step in the right direction.