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caspersoong
Oct 25, 2012, 12:30 AM
I find it mind-boggling why the Microsoft Surface was alleged by some to be an "iPad-killer". It does not really beat the iPad in any way, does it? The touch cover/type cover costs more than a hundred dollars! Besides, Anandtech said that the touch cover cannot be used to type comfortably for a long time while the type cover misses keystrokes. We can just buy a keyboard case for the iPad for less than a hundred sometimes, right? Is it because with the cover included and the kickstand (whose functionality many keyboard cases provide anyway) make the overall cost lower, with the addition of support for Office? Thanks for the replies! I hope this discrepancy can be clarified.



Michael CM1
Oct 25, 2012, 01:06 AM
I think it's the combination of Microsoft's first tablet and the new Windows 8 OS. I guarantee you so many people are going to HATE Windows 8 on computers. I think it'll be OK for the tablet, although the apps are going to be lacking until consumers show they'll actually buy apps for it. But you've got people like my mom who HATE change. This will ditch what Windows people have been used to for 17 years for something I don't understand, and I at least have a glimpse of it on my Xbox.

The Xbox UI is much more confusing than it was before the tile-based layout. I think it was designed by a monkey that liked pretty pictures more than words. That can be OK for a tablet, but it's crazy for a mouse-and-keyboard environment.

Lindsford
Oct 25, 2012, 01:09 AM
I'm staying away from Windows 8 on my Desktop. I hate that you're forced to update to the new dashboard on the 360... It's just a bunch of cluttered boxes next to each other in different sizes. How unique.:rolleyes:

Tigerman82
Oct 25, 2012, 01:10 AM
I find it mind-boggling why the Microsoft Surface was alleged by some to be an "iPad-killer". It does not really beat the iPad in any way, does it? The touch cover/type cover costs more than a hundred dollars! Besides, Anandtech said that the touch cover cannot be used to type comfortably for a long time while the type cover misses keystrokes. We can just buy a keyboard case for the iPad for less than a hundred sometimes, right? Is it because with the cover included and the kickstand (whose functionality many keyboard cases provide anyway) make the overall cost lower, with the addition of support for Office? Thanks for the replies! I hope this discrepancy can be clarified.

From a student's point of view, Surface can give the iPad run for its money. While obviously a small laptop is the preferred choice for a student, some of us would like to extend the versatility of a tablet to taking lecture notes etc. Obviously most of us need a real keyboard for it. The most popular and recommended keyboard for iPad I've read about is the Logitech Ultrathin keyboard. While it seems to be a great keyboard offering screen protection as well, the magnets on it are on the weak side which can lead to the keyboard detaching itself from the iPad time to time (when in screen cover mode). Surface and other hybrids are not going to have this problem as I'm sure they work seamlessly together.

Of course storage has always been a downside when it comes to the iPad. You are restricted to the memory size you buy and, as Apple tradition goes, you have to pay top dollar if you want anything larger than 16Gb. Other tablets have memory card slots and USBs while the iPad does not. Luckily I'm not the type of guy who wants to carry the entire music and video collection with him (none of my devices carry even 50 songs). However, I am worried that if I buy the iPad and transfer 2-5 movies into it (if I e.g. travel), I will be out of space soon.

Finally, Surface does have a version of Office which is a huge plus and at least in my university EVERYONE uses Word and Powerpoint and nothing else.

I do think that iPad does offer the best tablet experience and I doubt Surface and others can much the quality of materials, component integration and software of Apple. These are the reasons why I use an iMac instead of a Win-PC, as well.

Michael CM1
Oct 25, 2012, 01:16 AM
Windows 7 already erred me on my new notebook. Bought it because it was $500 cheaper than any MBA.

Well, apparently updates to Norton 360 or whatever downloaded over my hotspot connection when I was covering football games with it on. I rarely turn the computer on at home, and I kept getting restart prompts from Norton. After getting a phone bill that said I used SEVEN gigabytes of data, this is the only logical conclusion I have.

S again I'm reminded why I pay a little more up front for a Mac. I can't remember anything downloading huge files like that without screaming at me. This may be one reason Apple doesn't have automatic app updates. After experiencing this, I'm glad. I'll tap two buttons to not get an extra $30 charge.

jabingla2810
Oct 25, 2012, 01:24 AM
It's Microsoft, their first tablet and a huge change for their OS, so it's bound to be a big deal.

However, I hear a lot of Microsoft fans say it's better than the iPad because it has 'better specs', a USB port and Office.

...Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me.

As soon as somebody mentions specs I know they have missed the point.

They just don't get it. It's experience, experience, experience.

Michael CM1
Oct 25, 2012, 01:31 AM
Specs are a misguided attempt to determine how fast something is. Does anybody care about how hot a toaster gets, or do they care that the darn bread gets toasted? You can get fooled like crazy just going on a processor and memory when comparing different devices.

You can also get suckered on other components that will be gutted and slow your system down but not show up on the box. I noticed that with RAM speed and hard disk RPMs in the past. You could do the same thing on a tablet if you use cheaper memory or storage that slows down a faster bus.

I used to build my own computers, so I know where those people are coming from. I'm so glad to worry about that less now.

Yr Blues
Oct 25, 2012, 01:35 AM
i think it was meant for the business/enterprise class but failed to include one thing mobile wireless. that is a must have for on the go, work related communications.

without it, it's an instant fail. even the iPad mini has mobile options.

Mrbobb
Oct 25, 2012, 02:35 AM
"iPad-killer"

Who says? Don't go tabloid on me.

So they showed Surface + iPad side-by-side and they are the same thinness, and yet when I saw Surface at first by itself it looked pretty thick to me. Then I realize again, MS can't make cool hardware. I don't know what's the deal with them. Their X-boxes look decent but this Surface looks like a big Zune to me. That's the hardware.

OK once u get pass the ugly hardware, u still want a Windows machine, fine. To me the RT (can't run existing Windows app) is gonna take a while for the Arm-specific apps to catch up, if the dang thing doesn't die before.

The Surface Pro is the one that can run current Windows App, but I am going guess most of the gesture functionality is gone when you are in this "classic" mode. Apps will get updated "eventually" :rolleyes: and the Pro is gonna be close to $1K

News is that MS hardware partners were flabbergasted when MS announced back in June that they are going to sell the Surface in competition.

So there. MS is in no position to kill anybody, YET.

k995
Oct 25, 2012, 02:55 AM
I find it mind-boggling why the Microsoft Surface was alleged by some to be an "iPad-killer".
And who said its an ipad killer?

usualy that word gets thrown around by people trying to make a point wether someone said it or not.





It does not really beat the iPad in any way, does it?
It does in several fields, while in others ipad is better.



The touch cover/type cover costs more than a hundred dollars! Besides, Anandtech said that the touch cover cannot be used to type comfortably for a long time while the type cover misses keystrokes.
ANd the type cover does do this comfortably and is just as expensive.

With this typing is far better then on any ipad or ipad keyboard combination.





We can just buy a keyboard case for the iPad for less than a hundred sometimes, right? Is it because with the cover included and the kickstand (whose functionality many keyboard cases provide anyway) make the overall cost lower, with the addition of support for Office? Thanks for the replies! I hope this discrepancy can be clarified.

Bulky cases yes, thin ones like from logitech cost just as much and even they are bulkier and just dont work as wel together with the ipad.

----------

Windows 7 already erred me on my new notebook. Bought it because it was cheaper than any MBA.

Well, apparently updates to Norton 360 or whatever downloaded over my hotspot connection when I was covering football games with it on. I rarely turn the computer on at home, and I kept getting restart prompts from Norton. After getting a phone bill that said I used SEVEN gigabytes of data, this is the only logical conclusion I have.

S again I'm reminded why I pay a little more up front for a Mac. I can't remember anything downloading huge files like that without screaming at me. This may be one reason Apple doesn't have automatic app updates. After experiencing this, I'm glad. I'll tap two buttons to not get an extra charge.

Funny how you blame windows 7 for something norton 360 did.

Michael CM1
Oct 25, 2012, 03:01 AM
If Windows 7 was built better, I wouldn't need 360 or it would notify me before doing such updates. I've used a MacBook Pro and iPad in the same situations without hundreds of megabytes of downloads taking place without me knowing.

urkel
Oct 25, 2012, 03:30 AM
If Windows 7 was built better, I wouldn't need 360 or it would notify me before doing such updates. I've used a MacBook Pro and iPad in the same situations without hundreds of megabytes of downloads taking place without me knowing.
Norton 360? Either you're a grandma, a time traveler or you simply don't know how to use Windows because your bias against it seems to be prohibiting you from using it right. (Look, I prefer OSX over Windows but win7 is a pretty solid OS even in the hands of my mailing list loving mom. )

As for phantom downloads and your claim that Norton 360 downloaded 7GB (of WHAT?) while Macs would never do that. Well, you're wrong because that happens on Macs also if you don't manage the settings.. AppleTV movie purchases. iOS apps and books. OS updates. And lets not forget that PowerNap is a new feature that makes downloading huge files while a computer is asleep. These updates are meant as a convenience even if they are sometimes a pain.

You obviously had a bad experience and are irrationally using that to fuel your anger towards Windows (3rd party apps are a users responsibility) but for most people then Windows 7 is just fine. It's not as good as OSX for you or I but its good enough for 90% of the rest of the world. And to bring that bitterness against Windows 8 is silly because the whole point of this Widows overhaul is to transition themselves away from the legacy problems so why get so worked up over them trying to fix known problems?

I can't get my mom to switch to Mac so Ill probably get her an RT device. It'll handle all the basics that an average Windows user needs ar an affordable price. And I definitely won't be using any Norton products on it.

HowardSmith
Oct 25, 2012, 03:33 AM
The Suface is offering choice. I got the 64gb nit with black keyboard cover coming on Friday. I feel that if done right, it can and will be an additional choice for users.

Not everyone has swallowed the Apple pill. I left Blackberry for a more dependable device and picked Apple. Over all Apple has been good for me and other than it's still tiny screen ( but longer), I see no big leap with the iPhine 5 or iPad 4. When I see how many of you Apple people got pissed when the came out with another iPad . . . . Well maybe another Apple pill will help.

The Surface is just the beginning and will give others choice. I need MS Office. The business world still runs on Office. The Surface gives me the ability to use removable storage where I can keep files without using iTunes. I use DropBox but Aplle does not allow my iPad to sync/store files for use when I do not have DropBox available. Just this make the Surface more open and free and not so restricted like Apple.

In the end choice is good and it is still up in the air as to if the Surface will replace my iPad but I am sure going to give it a shot and have not already made up my mind like many here. If the Surface stick, that Nokia 920 is going to start to look good!:eek:

caspersoong
Oct 25, 2012, 04:23 AM
And who said its an ipad killer?

usualy that word gets thrown around by people trying to make a point wether someone said it or not.




It does in several fields, while in others ipad is better.


ANd the type cover does do this comfortably and is just as expensive.

With this typing is far better then on any ipad or ipad keyboard combination.






Bulky cases yes, thin ones like from logitech cost just as much and even they are bulkier and just dont work as wel together with the ipad.

----------



Funny how you blame windows 7 for something norton 360 did.


Thanks, that's a great answer.

scottw324
Oct 25, 2012, 04:41 AM
From a student's point of view, Surface can give the iPad run for its money. While obviously a small laptop is the preferred choice for a student, some of us would like to extend the versatility of a tablet to taking lecture notes etc. Obviously most of us need a real keyboard for it. The most popular and recommended keyboard for iPad I've read about is the Logitech Ultrathin keyboard. While it seems to be a great keyboard offering screen protection as well, the magnets on it are on the weak side which can lead to the keyboard detaching itself from the iPad time to time (when in screen cover mode). Surface and other hybrids are not going to have this problem as I'm sure they work seamlessly together.

Of course storage has always been a downside when it comes to the iPad. You are restricted to the memory size you buy and, as Apple tradition goes, you have to pay top dollar if you want anything larger than 16Gb. Other tablets have memory card slots and USBs while the iPad does not. Luckily I'm not the type of guy who wants to carry the entire music and video collection with him (none of my devices carry even 50 songs). However, I am worried that if I buy the iPad and transfer 2-5 movies into it (if I e.g. travel), I will be out of space soon.

Finally, Surface does have a version of Office which is a huge plus and at least in my university EVERYONE uses Word and Powerpoint and nothing else.

I do think that iPad does offer the best tablet experience and I doubt Surface and others can much the quality of materials, component integration and software of Apple. These are the reasons why I use an iMac instead of a Win-PC, as well.

You could always jailbreak your device and use a 32 GB thumb drive and CCK for more storage. That is typically what I do. I put my movies on the thumb drive and either watch them from there or copy/paste them to the iPad file system, watch and then delete afterwards. This is on my iPad 3 on iOS 5.1.1.

PrayForDeath
Oct 25, 2012, 04:57 AM
Windows 7 already erred me on my new notebook. Bought it because it was $500 cheaper than any MBA.

Well, apparently updates to Norton 360 or whatever downloaded over my hotspot connection when I was covering football games with it on. I rarely turn the computer on at home, and I kept getting restart prompts from Norton. After getting a phone bill that said I used SEVEN gigabytes of data, this is the only logical conclusion I have.

S again I'm reminded why I pay a little more up front for a Mac. I can't remember anything downloading huge files like that without screaming at me. This may be one reason Apple doesn't have automatic app updates. After experiencing this, I'm glad. I'll tap two buttons to not get an extra $30 charge.

Sounds like it was your fault for not disabling auto-updates on a limited connection (seven GBs is too much? You should see my monthly traffic :D)

HowardSmith
Oct 25, 2012, 05:05 AM
Every PC I have ever had, the forst thing I do when it comes out of the box is to DELETE NORTON!

Luis Ortega
Oct 25, 2012, 05:12 AM
As soon as somebody mentions specs I know they have missed the point.
They just don't get it. It's experience, experience, experience.

Nonsense. It's about having a working computer instead of a toy for watching movies, listening to music and spamming the internet with crap photos and videos of your friends acting like idiots.
I have a windows 7 tablet and an ipad, and the windows tablet is what I reach for when I have some real work to do.

Renzatic
Oct 25, 2012, 05:17 AM
Every PC I have ever had, the forst thing I do when it comes out of the box is to DELETE NORTON!

This. That's about the software equivalent of going at your computer with a claw hammer, then blaming Microsoft because it won't turn on anymore.

Delete Norton. I mean purge that thing. Get a damn Catholic priest in there to exorcise it if you have to.

62tele
Oct 25, 2012, 05:29 AM
I don't think there is that much excitement. A summary of reviews I've seen have panned it. Some are downright brutal.

Apple is dominant in the tablet market and will remain so for the foreseeable future.

Microsoft will blunder through Surface and Windows 8 and eventually come up with a decent product.

For now, Surface isn't going to threaten Apple's supremacy in Tablets.

jabingla2810
Oct 25, 2012, 05:39 AM
Nonsense. It's about having a working computer instead of a toy for watching movies, listening to music and spamming the internet with crap photos and videos of your friends acting like idiots.
I have a windows 7 tablet and an ipad, and the windows tablet is what I reach for when I have some real work to do.

I was going to be childish and say you've missed the point, but I won't :)

Look, if you're doing lots of typing and multitasking, then a keyboard and more robust OS is a must, and absolutly you're going to get more work done on Windows than iOS.

However, "getting work done" was never the reason people bought iPads.

Its the experience, the convenience, the simplicity of being able to do 90% of the things you do on a computer in an easier, and dare I say it fun way.

Next time I have to write that 3,000 word essay I will absolutely grab my Macbook, the thought of doing that on an iPad terrifies me.

But when I want to browse eBay, or even sell something on eBay, or edit the photo's from my holiday, i'm picking up the iPad and lying back on the sofa.

...Where were we... I totally got off point.

Point is, specs don't make the iPad what it is, it's the experience.

The experience of putting a word document together is probably better on the Surface.

Yet everything else is yet to be seen, maybe it will be a great experience, I don't know.

What it like to buy and download an App?
What about downloading an album?
How will the browser perform?
etc.

But my initial irk was, people say the Sruface will be better because it has a faster processor and more RAM, but it doesn't mean anything.

donnaw
Oct 25, 2012, 05:44 AM
To be honest for me the only thing my iPad has going for it over a Surface tablet is the LTE. I really miss not having access to a file system, being able to use an SD card for my movies and recorded TV. Plus with Windows 8 RT you can actually have two windows opened side-by-side. I miss this too when I'm shopping and need to access my ewallet.

I'm running Win 8 on my Asus tablet and like it a lot. But then I have been using windows tablets since about 2003 (HP 1000 and 1100, they saved me hours and hours of meeting notes transcription via OneNote). If I were not retired or if I were a student a Surface tablet would win hands down if for no other reason than the file access.

But now that I'm retired and travel a lot I don't create anything, I simply consume content. For that the iPad with LTE works best. However, when someone comes out with a Windows RT tablet with LTE I'll probably spring for it. Then I'll compare and see exactly which works best for me.

Renzatic
Oct 25, 2012, 05:53 AM
Actually, I put together an over 3000 word document on my iPad. Did it with the Apple keyboard though. There's no way in hell I'd type that much on the touchscreen.

You're both kind of right about the spec issue. Specs won't save a terrible product. If it's bad with 512 meg of ram, it'll be bad with a gig onboard. On the other hand, higher specs will allow you to do more. The Surface Pro, which is the one I'm interested in, will allow me to use Photoshop on a thin ultrabook style tablet with an onscreen digitizer. This one fact alone puts it ahead of the iPad for me.

No, Windows 8 isn't the best platform for a pure touch experience, and it won't be winning any fans in the consumer market because of this. But I do like the fact I can do more with it than I currently can with iOS. It's the choice between having a smooth experience with a limited amount of functionality, or considerably more functionality, but having to endure occasionally stabbing around in a desktop environment with a stylus. I wish I could have the best of both worlds, but for now, I'm gonna go with more functionality.

...and wait in the meantime for either MS to complete their touch based environment, or for Apple to power up the iPad.

jigzaw
Oct 25, 2012, 06:01 AM
I'll check the Surface out, but my gut feeling is that it's a so-so tablet and a crummy small-screened mushy-vinyl-keyboard top-heavy laptop with the guts behind the screen instead of under the keys, and very limited software options.

If I want a tablet, then I want a TABLET. One that's slick, thin, works smoothly and intuitively for quick tasks and of course the better the screen, the better for watching Netflix and reading. If I MUST do a lot of typing on it, I'll invest in a bluetooth keyboard with REAL KEYS to type on instead of a mushy rubbery flat doormat type thing. I think I'd rather type on a pane of glass than on that spongy roll-up mushy-keyed thing.

If I want a laptop, I've already got a cheap Acer Windows 7 machine (for under $300) that does everything a Surface Pro (at $1000) will do and more, including play and burn DVD's! And it has a real keyboard I can type swiftly and comfortably on, rather than flat weird indents on a mushy plastic mat that looks like something you'd put on the floor of your car.

I don't want to use Microsoft Word or Excel on a tablet-size screen, especially if I have to work for extended sittings and ESPECIALLY if I have to type on a flat mushy keyboard. No thanks.

HowardSmith
Oct 25, 2012, 06:02 AM
I think it is way early to make any judgements on what Win8 and Win8 hardware will bring to the market. It will take a year or two but I do predict that Win8 will be a "player" and to be considered along with Android and Apple.

I do not care which, I want freedom to do what I want to do without jumping through the iTune hoops! Apple will never let the iPad be what it COULD be and no I am not interested in jailbreaking the device!

Abazigal
Oct 25, 2012, 06:09 AM
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the whole premise of the Surface's appeal based on the point that it can run MS Office (or apparently, some variant thereof)?

Are that many people going to buy the surface just so they can do some decent word processing on it? It's not as though there aren't ipad apps that already let you simulate this to some extent.

jigzaw
Oct 25, 2012, 06:26 AM
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the whole premise of the Surface's appeal based on the point that it can run MS Office (or apparently, some variant thereof)?

Are that many people going to buy the surface just so they can do some decent word processing on it? It's not as though there aren't ipad apps that already let you simulate this to some extent.

That's what's making me skeptical about the Surface. There are MUCH better cheaper laptops out there on which you can use Office, with the comfort of a real keyboard instead of that that plastic roll-mat thing with the mushy keys that costs an extra $100. I'm just not sold on the idea of replacing a solid laptop for serious work with a tablet (and I love a good tablet).

----------

What does RT stand for, anyway? I keep thinking it's the Surface "Retweet" in my head.

Renzatic
Oct 25, 2012, 06:29 AM
I dunno what the RT is Surface RT means, but in WinRT, it's short for runtime.

And I wouldn't pan the mushy keyboard completely. I've seen a few reviews that state it's a surprisingly decent, versatile thing. And even if you don't like the mushy one, you can get the more traditional, clicky cover for...well...more overpriced.

Luis Ortega
Oct 25, 2012, 06:36 AM
I was going to be childish and say you've missed the point, but I won't :)

Look, if you're doing lots of typing and multitasking, then a keyboard and more robust OS is a must, and absolutly you're going to get more work done on Windows than iOS.

However, "getting work done" was never the reason people bought iPads.

Its the experience, the convenience, the simplicity of being able to do 90% of the things you do on a computer in an easier, and dare I say it fun way.

Next time I have to write that 3,000 word essay I will absolutely grab my Macbook, the thought of doing that on an iPad terrifies me.

But when I want to browse eBay, or even sell something on eBay, or edit the photo's from my holiday, i'm picking up the iPad and lying back on the sofa.

...Where were we... I totally got off point.

Point is, specs don't make the iPad what it is, it's the experience.

The experience of putting a word document together is probably better on the Surface.

Yet everything else is yet to be seen, maybe it will be a great experience, I don't know.

What it like to buy and download an App?
What about downloading an album?
How will the browser perform?
etc.

But my initial irk was, people say the Sruface will be better because it has a faster processor and more RAM, but it doesn't mean anything.

On my windows 7 tablet, there is no need for an App Store since I can install whatever software I choose.
Does windows 8 force you to use an App Store?

mattopotamus
Oct 25, 2012, 06:39 AM
Correct me if I am mistaken, but isn't the whole premise of the Surface's appeal based on the point that it can run MS Office (or apparently, some variant thereof)?

Are that many people going to buy the surface just so they can do some decent word processing on it? It's not as though there aren't ipad apps that already let you simulate this to some extent.

exactly. It is a tablet that will run office, which is a big deal in a business setting. Imagine how much better the ipad would be if it could run office.

Renzatic
Oct 25, 2012, 06:45 AM
RT does. Win8 is like Win7 in that you can install anything you want, but has access to the app store from within Metro (or whatever it's called).

Oh, and one other thing about the keyboard. You don't have to use it. I'm not sure about the RT, but the Pro is a full on ultrabook, capable of taking every piece of hardware Windows does. If I want to use my Apple bluetooth keyboard in its place, there's nothing stopping me.

That's whats so (potentially) neat about it. I can pick it up and use it as a tablet if I want. If I want to use it as more than just a tablet, I can plug in a keyboard and mouse, throw back the kickstand, and use it as an ultrabook. I can even hook up a 360 pad to it and play some games. It's a versatile little device.

Imagine if a Macbook Air were a touchscreen tablet with the hardware behind it. If you could use Apple's bluetooth keyboard and Magic Trackpad with it, would you think it's a less capable computer than it would be if it were permanently docked to the regular Apple keyboard? Really? What's the difference?

mattopotamus
Oct 25, 2012, 07:02 AM
RT does. Win8 is like Win7 in that you can install anything you want, but has access to the app store from within Metro (or whatever it's called).

Oh, and one other thing about the keyboard. You don't have to use it. I'm not sure about the RT, but the Pro is a full on ultrabook, capable of taking every piece of hardware Windows does. If I want to use my Apple bluetooth keyboard in its place, there's nothing stopping me.

That's whats so (potentially) neat about it. I can pick it up and use it as a tablet if I want. If I want to use it as more than just a tablet, I can plug in a keyboard and mouse, throw back the kickstand, and use it as an ultrabook. I can even hook up a 360 pad to it and play some games. It's a versatile little device.

Imagine if a Macbook Air were a touchscreen tablet with the hardware behind it. If you could use Apple's bluetooth keyboard and Magic Trackpad with it, would you think it's a less capable computer than it would be if it were permanently docked to the regular Apple keyboard? Really? What's the difference?

perfectly said. The RT will not replace laptops, but the pro version very easily could. I really like the point where you mention the Air that could turn into a tablet. That is basically what surface pro will be....a laptop with a removable touch screen...since it will have windows 8 in full, not just the metro version

jmgregory1
Oct 25, 2012, 07:13 AM
Nonsense. It's about having a working computer instead of a toy for watching movies, listening to music and spamming the internet with crap photos and videos of your friends acting like idiots.
I have a windows 7 tablet and an ipad, and the windows tablet is what I reach for when I have some real work to do.

What a load of bull. There are plenty of Fortune 500 companies implementing the iPad - not to watch videos and listen to music, but rather to sell products and services and communicate with customers and colleagues.

Need to write a proposal to a customer? Pages or Numbers can do that (on iPad or Mac). Need to send said Pages or Numbers proposal to said customer - as a word or excel file? Not a problem either. And don't come back with some crap about formatting not working. Only with highly complex excel files does Numbers have issues. For the majority of users, Apple's iWork can and does perform as well if not better than the competing "standard".

And the iPad can and does do more than that. Companies are realizing that it's cheaper and easier to create a custom app for iOS that can manage salespeople, product presentations, etc, than doing something similar in a windows environment. And with the ever expanding pool of iOS developers, pricing will keep coming down and quality will keep going up.

Windows 7 (and soon to be 8) tablets are examples of why inbreeding is not good. Tablets are not laptops and desktops are not tablets. Yes, you should be able to do certain tasks across platforms, but MS thinking that cross platform means doing things the same way is missing the point or worse, just completely wrong.

jabingla2810
Oct 25, 2012, 07:16 AM
On my windows 7 tablet, there is no need for an App Store since I can install whatever software I choose.
Does windows 8 force you to use an App Store?

You really have missed my point, I was talking about experience, not capability or flexibility.

Anyway, Windows 8 RT only allows you to use the app store.

Windows 8 Pro lets you install legacy apps, or any apps you want.

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 07:51 AM
For me it's a HUGE sense of relief. After 3 years of using iOS, which is pretty much a toy OS, I finally get to use a real OS. Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly grateful to Apple for single handedly pushing the tech world into thin true tablets, the ipad was and will always be a work of art. But the ipad never even came close to replacing my laptop or my desktop, it was basically a consumption device great for viewing photos, music and videos and not much else. Sure you could shoehorn PC "like" functions to it, but it was never the same as having OSx or Windows. What's worse is that Apple just sat back and never really changed iOS much over the years.

Of course I'm talking about WinPro. WinRT is an utter failure IMO and was a bad move by MS. But they needed to directly compete with the ipad and they have to start somewhere, I just think it has too many caveats at both ends. For the low end user who values consumption it just doesn't have any apps or developer support. For the power user who really wants a full OS, of course it's not a full OS and won't run Windows legacy apps.

WinPro on the other hand is the real deal, a "real" OS which I can do anything on and I can finally retire ALL my computers if I wanted to. I think more consumers exist than we give credit for who feel like they are settling for something less with the ipad and iOS, they look longingly at their laptop and wish their laptops functionality was inside their ipad. Companies like Jump desktop, Splashtop, Logmein, etc are quite popular because they allow you to run Windows or OSx on your ipad for this reason.

But once again Windows Pro tablets have only one chance to do it right. The i5 tablets scare me, poor battery life, fans blowing out of them, thick and heavy. The technology just isn't there yet, although it's close enough where I think a ton of power and corporate users will buy them so while I don't think they will be a mass hit like the ipad I do think they will sell well. What Microsoft needs to put their strength into is the Atom/Cloverfield devices, the ones which offer battery life, thinness, lightness, etc as the ipad but have full Windows 8 on them. The big question is how will the Atom perform with Windows 8. If the Atom sucks then IMO MS dropped the ball and a huge opportunity big time. The Atom machines are the ones which will truly compete against the ipad.

Yeah the MS surface and the entire Windows 8 ecosystem is a HUGE deal for me. I've been waiting 10 plus years for a truly portable Windows device and it's finally here.

----------

What a load of bull. There are plenty of Fortune 500 companies implementing the iPad - not to watch videos and listen to music, but rather to sell products and services and communicate with customers and colleagues.

Need to write a proposal to a customer? Pages or Numbers can do that (on iPad or Mac). Need to send said Pages or Numbers proposal to said customer - as a word or excel file? Not a problem either. And don't come back with some crap about formatting not working. Only with highly complex excel files does Numbers have issues. For the majority of users, Apple's iWork can and does perform as well if not better than the competing "standard".

And the iPad can and does do more than that. Companies are realizing that it's cheaper and easier to create a custom app for iOS that can manage salespeople, product presentations, etc, than doing something similar in a windows environment. And with the ever expanding pool of iOS developers, pricing will keep coming down and quality will keep going up.

Windows 7 (and soon to be 8) tablets are examples of why inbreeding is not good. Tablets are not laptops and desktops are not tablets. Yes, you should be able to do certain tasks across platforms, but MS thinking that cross platform means doing things the same way is missing the point or worse, just completely wrong.

If that was the case then I would assume it would be more economical for those companies to sell all their windows and/or OSx computers and buy all ipads, or maybe Apple will come out with a desktop/laptop which runs only iOS.

I think you miss the point by a mile. Computers are computers, whether they are tablets, desktops or laptops, or even phones. The ipad gave very few people a reason to ditch their laptop or desktop, but a Windows tablet gives them every reason to to just that.

laser310
Oct 25, 2012, 07:54 AM
That's what's making me skeptical about the Surface. There are MUCH better cheaper laptops out there on which you can use Office, with the comfort of a real keyboard instead of that that plastic roll-mat thing with the mushy keys that costs an extra $100. I'm just not sold on the idea of replacing a solid laptop for serious work with a tablet (and I love a good tablet).

----------

What does RT stand for, anyway? I keep thinking it's the Surface "Retweet" in my head.

It's not just Office - it's every one of the programs out there for windows.

I'm not that excited about the Surface with Win8 RT - I'd rather have an iOS device. At least I think I would - we'll see when it gets out and matures a bit. I have an iPhone and an iPad and I'm pretty happy with them. I am probably going to get an iPad min too.

I am very excited about the full windows 8 "Win 8 pro" tablets that are to come out next year.

They will supposedly run basically all windows programs - some of which are much more suited for tablets and mobile computing than Office. Many developers are adding tablet interfaces to their programs (that can be turned on and off) to let users take advantage of the great features of tablets.

What some Apple fans may not realize is that there is a large number of windows programs for which not only is there no iOS substitute, there's not even a Mac substitute.

I spend a huge amount of time lugging a windows laptop around to use two or three specific programs, that really would be convenient to have on a mobile device. I'll still keep the software on my desktop, and probably on a laptop, but the convenience of having it on a tablet will be huge.

I will almost certainly buy a Win8 Pro tablet - and I almost don't care what it costs.

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 07:55 AM
perfectly said. The RT will not replace laptops, but the pro version very easily could. I really like the point where you mention the Air that could turn into a tablet. That is basically what surface pro will be....a laptop with a removable touch screen...since it will have windows 8 in full, not just the metro version

http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/hp-envy-x2-1094171/review

I must say this is looking VERY nice as a replacement to my Macbook Air, which I just sold in anticipation of a Win8 tablet. Form factor is pretty close the the Macbook Air, and you can take it off and use as a tablet anytime. 3.1 lbs as a laptop about same weight as an Air with a built in battery in the dock giving much higher battery life than the Air, assuming 14-18 hour battery life which is just insane.

mattopotamus
Oct 25, 2012, 08:02 AM
http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/laptops-portable-pcs/laptops-and-netbooks/hp-envy-x2-1094171/review

I must say this is looking VERY nice as a replacement to my Macbook Air, which I just sold in anticipation of a Win8 tablet. Form factor is pretty close the the Macbook Air, and you can take it off and use as a tablet anytime. 3.1 lbs as a laptop about same weight as an Air with a built in battery in the dock giving much higher battery life than the Air, assuming 14-18 hour battery life which is just insane.

This is probably something apple is working on now. I really see this taking off and being huge!...definitely one of the most innovating things in years. I wonder if the tablet part will have internals as well as the the base? Otherwise It would suck to have tablet specs built into an actual computer. I just don't know how it would toggle between the two components.

jmgregory1
Oct 25, 2012, 09:15 AM
For me it's a HUGE sense of relief. After 3 years of using iOS, which is pretty much a toy OS, I finally get to use a real OS. Don't get me wrong, I'm incredibly grateful to Apple for single handedly pushing the tech world into thin true tablets, the ipad was and will always be a work of art. But the ipad never even came close to replacing my laptop or my desktop, it was basically a consumption device great for viewing photos, music and videos and not much else. Sure you could shoehorn PC "like" functions to it, but it was never the same as having OSx or Windows. What's worse is that Apple just sat back and never really changed iOS much over the years.

Of course I'm talking about WinPro. WinRT is an utter failure IMO and was a bad move by MS. But they needed to directly compete with the ipad and they have to start somewhere, I just think it has too many caveats at both ends. For the low end user who values consumption it just doesn't have any apps or developer support. For the power user who really wants a full OS, of course it's not a full OS and won't run Windows legacy apps.

WinPro on the other hand is the real deal, a "real" OS which I can do anything on and I can finally retire ALL my computers if I wanted to. I think more consumers exist than we give credit for who feel like they are settling for something less with the ipad and iOS, they look longingly at their laptop and wish their laptops functionality was inside their ipad. Companies like Jump desktop, Splashtop, Logmein, etc are quite popular because they allow you to run Windows or OSx on your ipad for this reason.

But once again Windows Pro tablets have only one chance to do it right. The i5 tablets scare me, poor battery life, fans blowing out of them, thick and heavy. The technology just isn't there yet, although it's close enough where I think a ton of power and corporate users will buy them so while I don't think they will be a mass hit like the ipad I do think they will sell well. What Microsoft needs to put their strength into is the Atom/Cloverfield devices, the ones which offer battery life, thinness, lightness, etc as the ipad but have full Windows 8 on them. The big question is how will the Atom perform with Windows 8. If the Atom sucks then IMO MS dropped the ball and a huge opportunity big time. The Atom machines are the ones which will truly compete against the ipad.

Yeah the MS surface and the entire Windows 8 ecosystem is a HUGE deal for me. I've been waiting 10 plus years for a truly portable Windows device and it's finally here.

----------



If that was the case then I would assume it would be more economical for those companies to sell all their windows and/or OSx computers and buy all ipads, or maybe Apple will come out with a desktop/laptop which runs only iOS.

I think you miss the point by a mile. Computers are computers, whether they are tablets, desktops or laptops, or even phones. The ipad gave very few people a reason to ditch their laptop or desktop, but a Windows tablet gives them every reason to to just that.

You are seeing corporations move from laptop implementations to iPad implementations where the usage of the laptop doesn't justify the price and functionality for certain employees. And I'm not suggesting the wholesale end of laptops or desktops, but rather that an iPad may be (and is for many) a better option for everyday use on the road selling some product or service.

The idea that tablets and phones and computers are all the same (just because they're all equally powerful) is MS thinking. Tablets are not computers and computers are not tablets, even if the new tablets are as powerful as many computers, how they are used is so vastly different yet you have MS trying to rope tablets back to doing what the laptop was created to do and vice versa. That's my issue with MS's thinking.

As far as OS goes for each piece of hardware, they are and should be distinctly different, albeit compatible. Making a tablet be a laptop or even desktop in its functioning of the OS is just wrong and that is exactly what the early reviews of the new Windows 8 are commenting on. The same is true for taking the touch elements of tablets and thinking they apply directly to laptops or desktops. That's just crazy when you think about how you actually use a laptop or desktop computer.

Look, I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any smaller of a screen for typing and creating spreadsheets - and I feel that way with the iPad and every other small screened tablet - even the 11" mba just doesn't work for me. For what I do, 13" is about as small as I can handle. I'm not an iPad user or owner even because I can't see any real way (today) that they would address my needs while traveling.

A tablet, as we know them today, is something you hold in your hands. Use with your fingers. The screen is, and can be, smaller because you hold it up to your face much closer than you do with a laptop or desktop screen. Forcing a tablet to do duty as a sudo laptop is just not ergonomically right. That's where a tablet's apps come in to play. You create the apps to do things that work for the common usage a tablet sees. MS is hedging their bets with the OS because they don't have enough developer buy-in to create windows specific apps that use a tablet or phone specific user interface. They have to sell you on the fact that each needs to be the same, even if it doesn't make sense in real world use.

I just can't see any need for touching the screen of my laptop or desktop, like what windows 8 allows you to do and as you're going to start seeing with pc laptops and desktops. It's a "feature" that was added to justify their whole marketing around a single OS that is made to run on phone, tablet, laptop and desktop.

You know what they say about trying to do more than you should - jack of all trades, master of none. That's what MS is trying to do and they're forcing the problems with each individual piece of hardware to effect the others. That's just bad thinking on their part.

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 10:21 AM
You are seeing corporations move from laptop implementations to iPad implementations where the usage of the laptop doesn't justify the price and functionality for certain employees. And I'm not suggesting the wholesale end of laptops or desktops, but rather that an iPad may be (and is for many) a better option for everyday use on the road selling some product or service.

The idea that tablets and phones and computers are all the same (just because they're all equally powerful) is MS thinking. Tablets are not computers and computers are not tablets, even if the new tablets are as powerful as many computers, how they are used is so vastly different yet you have MS trying to rope tablets back to doing what the laptop was created to do and vice versa. That's my issue with MS's thinking.

As far as OS goes for each piece of hardware, they are and should be distinctly different, albeit compatible. Making a tablet be a laptop or even desktop in its functioning of the OS is just wrong and that is exactly what the early reviews of the new Windows 8 are commenting on. The same is true for taking the touch elements of tablets and thinking they apply directly to laptops or desktops. That's just crazy when you think about how you actually use a laptop or desktop computer.

Look, I don't know about you, but I don't want to have any smaller of a screen for typing and creating spreadsheets - and I feel that way with the iPad and every other small screened tablet - even the 11" mba just doesn't work for me. For what I do, 13" is about as small as I can handle. I'm not an iPad user or owner even because I can't see any real way (today) that they would address my needs while traveling.

A tablet, as we know them today, is something you hold in your hands. Use with your fingers. The screen is, and can be, smaller because you hold it up to your face much closer than you do with a laptop or desktop screen. Forcing a tablet to do duty as a sudo laptop is just not ergonomically right. That's where a tablet's apps come in to play. You create the apps to do things that work for the common usage a tablet sees. MS is hedging their bets with the OS because they don't have enough developer buy-in to create windows specific apps that use a tablet or phone specific user interface. They have to sell you on the fact that each needs to be the same, even if it doesn't make sense in real world use.

I just can't see any need for touching the screen of my laptop or desktop, like what windows 8 allows you to do and as you're going to start seeing with pc laptops and desktops. It's a "feature" that was added to justify their whole marketing around a single OS that is made to run on phone, tablet, laptop and desktop.

You know what they say about trying to do more than you should - jack of all trades, master of none. That's what MS is trying to do and they're forcing the problems with each individual piece of hardware to effect the others. That's just bad thinking on their part.

I have to respectfully disagree, I think there can definitely be a convergence of tablets and laptops. Sure some hardware designs don't make sense for such a convergence, arguable the Surface might not, but have you actually tried the keyboard, do you know from first hand experience that it won't suit you? Even so, it's a weak argument because there are a LOT of other windows 8 tablets with keyboard docks which are just as nice as any other laptop keyboard, case in point the HP tablet I linked earlier.

I've always advocated a mobile "thin" device, and for a power user either a powerful desktop computer at home/work, or a centralized server connected to their "thin" device. The user can choose to carry a tablet, or to carry a tablet and a keyboard dock, etc. Windows 8 is windows 8 (except when it's RT, but I'm not arguing for RT and personally think RT will fail and dilute the market). Windows 8 is windows 8, whether you have it on a laptop, desktop or tablet.

You have good points on the screen size, but that's really a small point. I forget the manufacturer, but there was one who was doing detachable tablets in 13,14 and 15" sizes for example, I'm sure others will follow. For home/work use you can just plug in an external monitor, same for keyboard, mouse, etc.

gotluck
Oct 25, 2012, 10:24 AM
What a load of bull. There are plenty of Fortune 500 companies implementing the iPad - not to watch videos and listen to music, but rather to sell products and services and communicate with customers and colleagues.

Need to write a proposal to a customer? Pages or Numbers can do that (on iPad or Mac). Need to send said Pages or Numbers proposal to said customer - as a word or excel file? Not a problem either. And don't come back with some crap about formatting not working. Only with highly complex excel files does Numbers have issues. For the majority of users, Apple's iWork can and does perform as well if not better than the competing "standard".

And the iPad can and does do more than that. Companies are realizing that it's cheaper and easier to create a custom app for iOS that can manage salespeople, product presentations, etc, than doing something similar in a windows environment. And with the ever expanding pool of iOS developers, pricing will keep coming down and quality will keep going up.

Windows 7 (and soon to be 8) tablets are examples of why inbreeding is not good. Tablets are not laptops and desktops are not tablets. Yes, you should be able to do certain tasks across platforms, but MS thinking that cross platform means doing things the same way is missing the point or worse, just completely wrong.

Fortune 500 companies use pages and numbers?

I also disagree - there's no reason tablets and notebooks can't converge. I'm excited to see what surface pro brings - moreso than the RT.

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 10:36 AM
http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/pc-mac/pc-mac-desktops/sony-vaio-tap-20-1094048/review

There is a 20" Tablet for you, pretty insane and over the top. But it just tells me that you will be able to find pretty much ANY configuration you want to find. Want a 13" laptop with a detachable tablet, shouldn't be a problem. There are so many PC manufacturers that we are going to be flooded with different hardware configurations very soon.

Also I'm not buying the tablet touch, laptop mouse and never shall they meet argument. You slide the tablet into it's keyboard dock and you have a laptop configuration, you slide it out and you have a tablet touch configuration. What's the big deal? Why fight something that is so incredibly intuitive thanks to the genius of Windows 8 you can switch to whichever desktop suits your needs at that point in time and completely ignore the other type of configuration.

TheHateMachine
Oct 25, 2012, 10:42 AM
What a load of bull. There are plenty of Fortune 500 companies implementing the iPad - not to watch videos and listen to music, but rather to sell products and services and communicate with customers and colleagues.

Need to write a proposal to a customer? Pages or Numbers can do that (on iPad or Mac). Need to send said Pages or Numbers proposal to said customer - as a word or excel file? Not a problem either. And don't come back with some crap about formatting not working. Only with highly complex excel files does Numbers have issues. For the majority of users, Apple's iWork can and does perform as well if not better than the competing "standard".

And the iPad can and does do more than that. Companies are realizing that it's cheaper and easier to create a custom app for iOS that can manage salespeople, product presentations, etc, than doing something similar in a windows environment. And with the ever expanding pool of iOS developers, pricing will keep coming down and quality will keep going up.

Windows 7 (and soon to be 8) tablets are examples of why inbreeding is not good. Tablets are not laptops and desktops are not tablets. Yes, you should be able to do certain tasks across platforms, but MS thinking that cross platform means doing things the same way is missing the point or worse, just completely wrong.

I have to disagree, I have worked in at a Fortune 200 Company and currently work at a Fortune 100 company. Rebroadcasting and Healthcare respectively. Both of these companies are in love with Apple and both tried to roll out iPad solutions in corporate environments. The end result? Alot of headache and problems. The first company scrapped the idea all together and just raffled off the iPads to employees. The second and current is struggling with it with it honestly having no future. No Office and poor Office document compatibility, poor support for network resource access and the companies that we buy software from either make some limited iOS port that is downright terrible or just do not even bother.

So my experience has shown that they will never become laptop replacements, right now our Doctors just use them to browse content and google stuff. Whenever they need access to anything to do their job they turn to their touch screen laptops.

That being said WinRT might make a splash but outside of compatibility with existing documents it will still have the whole network authentication barrier for network access and no support for AD/GPO as well as the fact that legacy apps wont work. Surface Pro will be the thing that changes everything in the enterprise.

reputationZed
Oct 25, 2012, 11:26 AM
Not sure if its been mentioned yet but the surface tablets that are being released this week will be running Windows/RT not Windows 8. The Windows 8 Surfaces will be released latter in the year and will come at a higher price. To the best of my knowledge Windows RT apps and Windows 8 apps are not comparable meaning you will not be able to run Windows 8 comparable software on these tablets. I'm not saying you won't be able to share documents. MS has always been strong on collaboration features and there's no reason to doubt that wouldn't be the same here.

It's also worth mentioning that Office RT will still be Beta when the Surface is released. Not sure if this entitles you you a free copy of the shipping version or not

aneftp
Oct 25, 2012, 11:28 AM
If the surface $499 ran real windows legacy programs it would be a big deal.

Think if sales of the Surface are weak the first month, we will see a quick $100 price drop from Microsoft to get the holiday shopper.

Think with ipad mini at $329, Android Nexus 7 tablet at $199/249 and Amazon's kindle at around $199.

And of course Apple's ipad 2 at $399/ipad 4 at $499.

There isn't any room for Microsoft to maneuver at the $499 price point even if it's 32GB compared to 16GB for ipad 4.

I've had Windows phone. Just remember if people don't see some must have apps that Windows Phone 8/tablet 8 is missing, they will return the device.

walie
Oct 25, 2012, 11:54 AM
You could always jailbreak your device and use a 32 GB thumb drive and CCK for more storage. That is typically what I do. I put my movies on the thumb drive and either watch them from there or copy/paste them to the iPad file system, watch and then delete afterwards. This is on my iPad 3 on iOS 5.1.1.

I love how people try to claim Jailbreaking as a "feature"

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 12:18 PM
If the surface $499 ran real windows legacy programs it would be a big deal.

Think if sales of the Surface are weak the first month, we will see a quick $100 price drop from Microsoft to get the holiday shopper.

Think with ipad mini at $329, Android Nexus 7 tablet at $199/249 and Amazon's kindle at around $199.

And of course Apple's ipad 2 at $399/ipad 4 at $499.

There isn't any room for Microsoft to maneuver at the $499 price point even if it's 32GB compared to 16GB for ipad 4.

I've had Windows phone. Just remember if people don't see some must have apps that Windows Phone 8/tablet 8 is missing, they will return the device.

I think they have some room to work with in terms of Windows 8 PRO versus the ipad. I wouldn't include nexus 7, ipad mini, kindle etc because those are truly consumption devices, you can make a very weak argument for being productive on an ipad, but on those smaller devices I doubt you could make that argument.

The Atom full Windows 8 Pro systems look like they are going to be $650-700 from what I've been seeing, most of them (I think all) had 64gb of storage. An ipad wifi only with 64gb is $699 so I think that's very comparable, but the win8 gets usb, more memory via microSD, full windows legacy support, ability to truly replace your laptop, etc etc etc. I think there is going to be a whole LOT of people who will opt to have a full OS in their hands for what is really the same price.

Of course the huge caveat here is how will the Atom perform. I really doubt MS would stake their entire future on a crappy CPU, but you never know.

gotluck
Oct 25, 2012, 12:29 PM
I think they have some room to work with in terms of Windows 8 PRO versus the ipad. I wouldn't include nexus 7, ipad mini, kindle etc because those are truly consumption devices, you can make a very weak argument for being productive on an ipad, but on those smaller devices I doubt you could make that argument.

The Atom full Windows 8 Pro systems look like they are going to be $650-700 from what I've been seeing, most of them (I think all) had 64gb of storage. An ipad wifi only with 64gb is $699 so I think that's very comparable, but the win8 gets usb, more memory via microSD, full windows legacy support, ability to truly replace your laptop, etc etc etc. I think there is going to be a whole LOT of people who will opt to have a full OS in their hands for what is really the same price.

Of course the huge caveat here is how will the Atom perform. I really doubt MS would stake their entire future on a crappy CPU, but you never know.

I thought the surface pro was using a laptop variant of the 3rd gen core i5? Isn't the atom an entirely different product line?

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 01:01 PM
I thought the surface pro was using a laptop variant of the 3rd gen core i5? Isn't the atom an entirely different product line?

They have 3 different hardware configurations:
ARM CPU for Windows RT only

ATOM Z2760 CPU (cloverfield) 1.86ghz dual core for Windows Pro (full version of windows) next year they are releasing a quad core ATOM CPU.

Ivy Bridge, i3/i5/i7 full desktop type CPU for Windows Pro (full version of windows)

I believe the surface pro is using the ivy bridge CPU, but I wouldn't be surprised if MS released 2 PRO versions, an ATOM and an ivy bridge one, but that's purely wishful thinking at this point.

b166er
Oct 25, 2012, 01:12 PM
I kind of miss the days when MS was on their A game at all times. The past several years all they have had going for them is the Xbox, which is a great console but I don't game much these days.

Seriously, the past decade MS has had a few flops, and the only thing worth mentioning other than Xbox is Windows 7. WP7 was really just a rushed WP8.

I think that Windows 8 for tablets will do very well. Desktops, I don't know. I'm gonna dual boot it and see how it goes just to give it an honest try, but I'm not expecting much. I think Windows 8 will really thrive on tablets and phones. The surface looks great, although at this point I don't think anything out there competes with the iPad. The Lumia 920 looks awesome (preordered one so I'm pre-biased).

As far as competing with iPad- it's over. Apple gains and looses ground in different markets constantly, but one thing is clear- the iPad is the tablet everyone is buying. They are just demolishing all competition in this area. I have tried other tablets, I own a nexus 7 which I think is awesome, but the average consumer is willing to shell out extra for the iPad. That's not an opinion, it's just sheer numbers.

I wish MS the best in 2013!

gotluck
Oct 25, 2012, 01:14 PM
They have 3 different hardware configurations:
ARM CPU for Windows RT only

ATOM Z2760 CPU (cloverfield) 1.86ghz dual core for Windows Pro (full version of windows) next year they are releasing a quad core ATOM CPU.

Ivy Bridge, i3/i5/i7 full desktop type CPU for Windows Pro (full version of windows)

I believe the surface pro is using the ivy bridge CPU, but I wouldn't be surprised if MS released 2 PRO versions, an ATOM and an ivy bridge one, but that's purely wishful thinking at this point.

Ah I see - some articles out there talking about the atom version as well.

I hadn't seen that on Microsoft's website.

PrayForDeath
Oct 25, 2012, 02:02 PM
I love how people try to claim Jailbreaking as a "feature"

Indeed, not to mention that there's no jailbreak available right now for newly purchased iPads, as they all run iOS 6.

Edslunch
Oct 25, 2012, 02:08 PM
I don't see Surface competing well as a consumer device. There are good arguments for use by professionals who are already heavy windows users and need a portable option.

But many like me are already issued a fully capable notebook as our only business computer that we can use both in the office and portably so have no need for this capability in a second device. I don't know that IT departments are going to want to buy both the desktop and a tablet for users when they could just buy them a decent notebook and maybe a second monitor and docking station.

spinedoc77
Oct 25, 2012, 02:22 PM
I kind of miss the days when MS was on their A game at all times. The past several years all they have had going for them is the Xbox, which is a great console but I don't game much these days.

Seriously, the past decade MS has had a few flops, and the only thing worth mentioning other than Xbox is Windows 7. WP7 was really just a rushed WP8.

I think that Windows 8 for tablets will do very well. Desktops, I don't know. I'm gonna dual boot it and see how it goes just to give it an honest try, but I'm not expecting much. I think Windows 8 will really thrive on tablets and phones. The surface looks great, although at this point I don't think anything out there competes with the iPad. The Lumia 920 looks awesome (preordered one so I'm pre-biased).

As far as competing with iPad- it's over. Apple gains and looses ground in different markets constantly, but one thing is clear- the iPad is the tablet everyone is buying. They are just demolishing all competition in this area. I have tried other tablets, I own a nexus 7 which I think is awesome, but the average consumer is willing to shell out extra for the iPad. That's not an opinion, it's just sheer numbers.

I wish MS the best in 2013!

I think there a LOT of "settlers" out there, people who feel as if they settled when choosing the ipad and iOS, or android. It made us make a choice 3 years ago versus using a desktop OS, or using a phone OS. At it's heart the ipad has a phone OS. I think first and foremost Windows tablets will eat Android market share, and also people who have not purchased any tablets yet, but I do think they will eat some of Apple's market share as well.

Apple will always have a huge audience, and I can't see that they will continue to rest on their laurels as they have been this last year or 2. No doubt they will reinvent themselves again and keep their market share.

Renzatic
Oct 25, 2012, 02:25 PM
Ars Technica just released their Windows 8 review (http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/10/windows-reimagined-a-review-of-windows-8/), and as usual does a great job highlighting the good and bad about the platform.

My opinion of Win8 is that it isn't nearly as bad as it's made out to be, but it is very much an "every other version" of Windows. Much like Vista was clunky, unoptimized, and made whole loads of sweeping changes to the OS that were eventually perfected with Windows 7, Windows 8 is likely to be the weird, rough cut version of Windows 9.

Win8 won't be the huge disaster Vista was simply because it performs a helluva lot better than even 7. The biggest problem is it's really goofy in how it handles Metro alongside the old desktop. The new Start screen is fine once you get used to it, but when you get deep into the RT side of things, you do see that, yeah, it does kinda feel like it's one OS overlaid on the other rather than one complete whole. The article states it in plain black and white, MS could've done a much better job integrating the desktop with Metro.

My summary after using 8 for a few months? Not an absolute trainwreck, just weird. I give it a 7.

It's kinda weird how I constantly defend Win8 and the Surface while I myself am slowly migrating over to the Steve Jobs cult. I guess it's because I like the direction MS is going better overall than Apple, but I kinda like where Apple is right now better than what MS is currently offering. It's the difference between not bad, very promising vs. really damn good right now.

pesos
Oct 25, 2012, 06:51 PM
Anandtech's review is out. Good to see a review from people who know what they are talking about. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review

Looking forward to my surface's arrival tomorrow!

scottw324
Oct 26, 2012, 06:15 AM
I love how people try to claim Jailbreaking as a "feature"

It is no different than rooting an android device. Both allow u to put more things on the device the original manufacturer didn't put on there. Does it really matter. It isn't that much different than downloading and installing an app from the app store. Alittle more intensive but it puts new options at your fingertips that u didn't have before. I love having the toggles for wifi, location, blutooth, etc... In the notification bar. Would rather have that than facebook and twitter options.

maflynn
Oct 26, 2012, 06:23 AM
I'm tempted but I'll not spend the $$ especially since I dropped more money then I wanted to spend on the mini.

I think MS put in some serious design time to produce a nice tablet, like google with the nexus devices they produced one to show how it can be done.

walie
Oct 26, 2012, 06:33 AM
It is no different than rooting an android device. Both allow u to put more things on the device the original manufacturer didn't put on there. Does it really matter. It isn't that much different than downloading and installing an app from the app store. Alittle more intensive but it puts new options at your fingertips that u didn't have before. I love having the toggles for wifi, location, blutooth, etc... In the notification bar. Would rather have that than facebook and twitter options.

Here's another misconception people have with jailbreaking; 95% of the "features" you need to jailbreak an iOS device for can be done on an unrooted android device. Using your example, if your android phone didn't come with toggles in the notification shade, there are a number of apps available in the Play Store that will add them, no rooting required. Rooting is only required for a small group of (powerful) system apps. Go a step further and an unlocked bootloader will enable you to flash custom roms, which is an entirely different beast.

And in light of recent events:

rooting = not illegal

jailbreaking ipad - ILLEGAL!!!

jmgregory1
Oct 26, 2012, 06:57 AM
Fortune 500 companies use pages and numbers?

I also disagree - there's no reason tablets and notebooks can't converge. I'm excited to see what surface pro brings - moreso than the RT.

No - not saying that any large corporations use pages and numbers, that was related to MS not having the only solution.

I'll stand by my comments. MS is simply trying to make a thin version of a netbook that may work as a tablet.

And I've been in the workforce since before there were computers, pc or otherwise. I've used giant mainframe systems and have had at some point just about every laptop and desktop pc that has come out. Everyone talks about the new Surface being able to run any pc program and connect to any pc peripheral and that is just going to be a complete cluster. MS and their pc manufacturers have enough trouble getting programs and periphs to "work" on standard desktops and laptops - WHY do you think the Surface is going to be any better?

And for those that don't remember, the old touchscreen "tablet" windows laptops that were part laptop, part touchscreen tablet, were complete rubbish. I used one for a week and couldn't stand it and refused to keep using it for work. MS is simply not learning from their mistakes and they're trying to convince you that what they're doing now is somehow better and the right way and I don't buy it.

And what MS is doing is just further supporting the huge IT industry that has been set up to "fix" the issues MS has built into their system. I applaud them for figuring out a way to keep all these high-paid IT guys (and gals) doing the same schtick for the foreseeable future. This is one issue that Apple just doesn't get - cracking the enterprise market can only happen if you get buy-in from the IT people who control the market. Apple's been forcing the issue somewhat with employees pushing to use Apple product, but to truly get a foothold, they need to pander to the IT crowd and create products and systems that are fraught with issues that only the IT crowd can fix.

1member1
Oct 26, 2012, 07:11 AM
There's no advantage in the surface except from the USB i guess.. office is not good for touch and it's not easy to work on the surface from what i saw..

i still think ipad is different kind of tablet.

jmgregory1
Oct 26, 2012, 07:20 AM
I have to disagree, I have worked in at a Fortune 200 Company and currently work at a Fortune 100 company. Rebroadcasting and Healthcare respectively. Both of these companies are in love with Apple and both tried to roll out iPad solutions in corporate environments. The end result? Alot of headache and problems. The first company scrapped the idea all together and just raffled off the iPads to employees. The second and current is struggling with it with it honestly having no future. No Office and poor Office document compatibility, poor support for network resource access and the companies that we buy software from either make some limited iOS port that is downright terrible or just do not even bother.

So my experience has shown that they will never become laptop replacements, right now our Doctors just use them to browse content and google stuff. Whenever they need access to anything to do their job they turn to their touch screen laptops.

That being said WinRT might make a splash but outside of compatibility with existing documents it will still have the whole network authentication barrier for network access and no support for AD/GPO as well as the fact that legacy apps wont work. Surface Pro will be the thing that changes everything in the enterprise.

A question I have is who managed the iPad roll-out? Did you create custom apps to do what your company wanted/needed to use the iPads for? You say it didn't have good Office compatibility - does that mean it was your IT guys, who of course were schooled in MS systems, worked on the roll-out? Yes, 2 years ago when the iPads launched, the iWork apps weren't what they are now, but again, what exactly was the supposed use of the iPads? Was it really supposed to be a laptop replacement where people were generating docs and spreadsheets?

Because if that was the case, then whoever thought it should be this way was about as clueless as you can get. The iPad isn't supposed to just be a smaller version of a laptop. Who really wants to create docs and spreadsheets on an iPad. I know I don't. I've tweaked files (both word and excel) on my iPhone, when I needed to quickly get something to a customer, but that's the exception, not the rule. Checking and responding to email - that's easy. Running custom apps that work for a small touchscreen tablet is how it's supposed to work.

If doctors at your current employer don't have the proper app to do what they need to do, of course the iPad isn't going to serve them well. Why would you or anyone else think it would or should? Create a custom app that more quickly and easily gets them the information they need and I can guarantee you that they'd use and benefit from the iPad. Again, it takes a company with vision to see beyond just trying to do what they're doing now on a smaller screen. I can guess that whatever hospital / patient system you're using now was probably created by a company that is today working on an iPad/Android app that does exactly what I'm talking about. If they're not, they'll end up losing the business to some company that comes in with exactly that.

Just look at what's happening at retail. You have a chain like Urban Outfitters/Anthro that is ditching their entire cash register system, to be replaced by iPads running a custom app. They get to dump the $2500 (each) registers and use $500 iPads that will do everything the register does, plus be portable, plus have access to system inventory. They'll also not have to pay the typical recurring fees associated with register systems. They created their own app to do what they wanted and you're going to see this same thing play out in lots of businesses.

Making desktop programs run on a tablet is not progress or innovation, but it certainly seems to be the direction MS is going.

1member1
Oct 26, 2012, 08:34 AM
And what MS is doing is just further supporting the huge IT industry that has been set up to "fix" the issues MS has built into their system. I applaud them for figuring out a way to keep all these high-paid IT guys (and gals) doing the same schtick for the foreseeable future. This is one issue that Apple just doesn't get - cracking the enterprise market can only happen if you get buy-in from the IT people who control the market. Apple's been forcing the issue somewhat with employees pushing to use Apple product, but to truly get a foothold, they need to pander to the IT crowd and create products and systems that are fraught with issues that only the IT crowd can fix.

You have a point but today the IT in small and medium buisness supporting all kind of devices including iPads, iPhone and everything the employees bring from home.
I don't think surface is ready for enterprise yet. not with the current specs (128GB if i'm not wrong).
Apple also have some tools to control the idevices and there are many solutions from companies..

time will tell

spinedoc77
Oct 26, 2012, 08:46 AM
No - not saying that any large corporations use pages and numbers, that was related to MS not having the only solution.

I'll stand by my comments. MS is simply trying to make a thin version of a netbook that may work as a tablet.

And I've been in the workforce since before there were computers, pc or otherwise. I've used giant mainframe systems and have had at some point just about every laptop and desktop pc that has come out. Everyone talks about the new Surface being able to run any pc program and connect to any pc peripheral and that is just going to be a complete cluster. MS and their pc manufacturers have enough trouble getting programs and periphs to "work" on standard desktops and laptops - WHY do you think the Surface is going to be any better?

And for those that don't remember, the old touchscreen "tablet" windows laptops that were part laptop, part touchscreen tablet, were complete rubbish. I used one for a week and couldn't stand it and refused to keep using it for work. MS is simply not learning from their mistakes and they're trying to convince you that what they're doing now is somehow better and the right way and I don't buy it.

And what MS is doing is just further supporting the huge IT industry that has been set up to "fix" the issues MS has built into their system. I applaud them for figuring out a way to keep all these high-paid IT guys (and gals) doing the same schtick for the foreseeable future. This is one issue that Apple just doesn't get - cracking the enterprise market can only happen if you get buy-in from the IT people who control the market. Apple's been forcing the issue somewhat with employees pushing to use Apple product, but to truly get a foothold, they need to pander to the IT crowd and create products and systems that are fraught with issues that only the IT crowd can fix.

A lot of doom and gloom, but yes on some levels Microsoft deserves it. They fumbled the lead they had with tablets badly, Apple picked up the ball and scored a touchdown. MS also fumbled the lead they had with smartphones and once again Apple scored a touchdown. It seems as if MS is extremely serious this time around, they understand they have to transform into something else to continue to survive.

There were some very good tablets out there. Ever use the TC1100? A very nice tablet that gets pretty universal rave reviews, that is one example. I've personally also used some of the Fujitsu P series tablets for intakes of new patients, which were very nice in their time. But I won't deny that the majority of them were horrid and MS dropped the ball, not only them but the PC makers both in hardware and software.

As for connecting to peripherals Windows as an ecosystem is extremely robust in that sense. 420 million peripherals, let that sink in, 420 MILLION peripherals that can connect through USB. That's just an amazing figure that the ipad doesn't have, what in the name of being simple? I'm sorry but I'll take some acceptable percentage that some of those 420 million devices won't work, although in 15 years of using windows devices I've rarely had an issue with a peripheral not working, especially after windows XP. The usefulness of peripherals is not to be understated and I think that's one of the things that will propel people past the current Toy Tablets out there.

The bottom line IMO is that it's a REAL Os, something you can sink your teeth into and get some work done. Pop it out and it becomes a tablet with all day battery life that you can take on the road with you. Pop it in and it becomes a full powered laptop that you can do serious work on. Dock it and you can connect it to a nice 28" monitor, keyboard and mouse and have a complete desktop station. It's just incredible and something I personally have been waiting for 10+ years, biding my time settling with iOS. Windows tablets are going to be huge IMO, that's Pro, not RT which IMO is going to fail miserably and unfortunately will be an anchor to Pro.

jmgregory1
Oct 26, 2012, 11:15 AM
A lot of doom and gloom, but yes on some levels Microsoft deserves it. They fumbled the lead they had with tablets badly, Apple picked up the ball and scored a touchdown. MS also fumbled the lead they had with smartphones and once again Apple scored a touchdown. It seems as if MS is extremely serious this time around, they understand they have to transform into something else to continue to survive.

There were some very good tablets out there. Ever use the TC1100? A very nice tablet that gets pretty universal rave reviews, that is one example. I've personally also used some of the Fujitsu P series tablets for intakes of new patients, which were very nice in their time. But I won't deny that the majority of them were horrid and MS dropped the ball, not only them but the PC makers both in hardware and software.

As for connecting to peripherals Windows as an ecosystem is extremely robust in that sense. 420 million peripherals, let that sink in, 420 MILLION peripherals that can connect through USB. That's just an amazing figure that the ipad doesn't have, what in the name of being simple? I'm sorry but I'll take some acceptable percentage that some of those 420 million devices won't work, although in 15 years of using windows devices I've rarely had an issue with a peripheral not working, especially after windows XP. The usefulness of peripherals is not to be understated and I think that's one of the things that will propel people past the current Toy Tablets out there.

The bottom line IMO is that it's a REAL Os, something you can sink your teeth into and get some work done. Pop it out and it becomes a tablet with all day battery life that you can take on the road with you. Pop it in and it becomes a full powered laptop that you can do serious work on. Dock it and you can connect it to a nice 28" monitor, keyboard and mouse and have a complete desktop station. It's just incredible and something I personally have been waiting for 10+ years, biding my time settling with iOS. Windows tablets are going to be huge IMO, that's Pro, not RT which IMO is going to fail miserably and unfortunately will be an anchor to Pro.

Complacency breeds mediocrity and that has been especially true for MS. They owned the market and rested on their laurels thinking they'd stay on top forever.

I understand your point with the peripherals, but again that represents the past and at some point you have to push forward. It's what Apple gambled on and so far it's been the right decision. For you personally, you're not (taking an educated guess) using 420 million usb peripherals right now are you? That would require one really big usb hub!

I'm sure there are some technical products that only recently swapped over from either some 20+ pin proprietary connector or a DB or scsi or V type connector (which is yet another conversation to have about companies living in the past), but look at where printers are going, as a perfect example. About a month ago, I went to get new cartridges for my wide format inkjet printer. Instead of getting the cartridges, it was cheaper to just buy a new printer, which happened to be a wifi printer - a bonus for me as I have wanted to move the printer away from my desks. And now I can, did rather.

Whether it's the right or wrong decision, things are moving away from cabled connections to wireless, wifi or bt.

Times, they are a changing and holding on to the past - tech-wise or life in general, is not a way to move forward. Yes, it may be difficult to let go of what you know, what you have today, but you're going to end up changing at some point whether you want to or not. MS might still be building products and software to address old legacy periphs and systems, but as the 3rd party peripheral companies move forward in their own attempt to get a piece of the new non-MS, Apple or Google pie, you'll be forced, or MS will be forced to follow in the footsteps of Apple and Google yet again.

I switched from pc to mac for the exact reason you say you like MS's OS's - so I can just get work done. I can guarantee you that I've been more productive and it's true for those in my company that have made the switch as well. Unless you're an IT person, where your business is tech, I'm not sure why you'd want to have to dig in to windows to make it do what you want so you can get work done. Just doesn't make sense to me.

spinedoc77
Oct 26, 2012, 11:42 AM
Complacency breeds mediocrity and that has been especially true for MS. They owned the market and rested on their laurels thinking they'd stay on top forever.

I understand your point with the peripherals, but again that represents the past and at some point you have to push forward. It's what Apple gambled on and so far it's been the right decision. For you personally, you're not (taking an educated guess) using 420 million usb peripherals right now are you? That would require one really big usb hub!

I'm sure there are some technical products that only recently swapped over from either some 20+ pin proprietary connector or a DB or scsi or V type connector (which is yet another conversation to have about companies living in the past), but look at where printers are going, as a perfect example. About a month ago, I went to get new cartridges for my wide format inkjet printer. Instead of getting the cartridges, it was cheaper to just buy a new printer, which happened to be a wifi printer - a bonus for me as I have wanted to move the printer away from my desks. And now I can, did rather.

Whether it's the right or wrong decision, things are moving away from cabled connections to wireless, wifi or bt.

Times, they are a changing and holding on to the past - tech-wise or life in general, is not a way to move forward. Yes, it may be difficult to let go of what you know, what you have today, but you're going to end up changing at some point whether you want to or not. MS might still be building products and software to address old legacy periphs and systems, but as the 3rd party peripheral companies move forward in their own attempt to get a piece of the new non-MS, Apple or Google pie, you'll be forced, or MS will be forced to follow in the footsteps of Apple and Google yet again.

I switched from pc to mac for the exact reason you say you like MS's OS's - so I can just get work done. I can guarantee you that I've been more productive and it's true for those in my company that have made the switch as well. Unless you're an IT person, where your business is tech, I'm not sure why you'd want to have to dig in to windows to make it do what you want so you can get work done. Just doesn't make sense to me.

"Complacency breeds mediocrity...They owned the market and rested on their laurels thinking they'd stay on top forever."


I just want to let that quote from you sink in, it's very significant. You are 110% correct, that's exactly what happened to Microsoft. They dropped the ball so badly in terms of tablets and smartphones now it is coming back and really hurting them.

But the reason I like your quote is that it seems, IMO, to describe Apple today. The ipad was incredibly revolutionary, it was complete genius and it moved us forward into the tablet world single handedly. But it has remained essentially the same since it was introduced, similar to the iphone, but you can get away with that much more easily in a phone than a "computer". Apple is very much so resting on their laurels, I can't say so much in the sense of hardware since they have improved cpu/gpu, retina screen, etc etc., but they've been incredibly complacent in their OS.

This is where it seems we part ways with our logic processes, and that's ok in a friendly discussion. But obviously we had a MAJOR revolution when laptops came out. People realized that they could lug around their computer with them and be productive, or game, or social, or whatever and not be tied to their home/work. This is the same revolution with tablets, except Apple did not allow us to truly take our laptops with us. It's Apples refusal to give us a full OS experience which IMO will hinder them in the future, it's a hubris. I think if a watered down OS like iOS was what people really wanted then we would all have some kind of stripped down iOS type OS on all of our laptops, maybe chrome, I don't know. But we don't, the vast vast majority, virtually all laptops are either Windows or OSx. Even Apple doesn't sell laptops with iOS on them.

It's understandable if from a technological point of view Apple did not put OSx on a tablet because of hardware constraints. But that day is here upon us TODAY, we have a full blown Windows 8 tablet with the same battery life, form factor, size, etc as the ipad. We have now crossed over from having to settle for a "phone OS" to a real OS, and I think that is going to impact a LOT of people similar to how laptops impacted desktop users, or how the ipad impacted laptop users, but even more so because now there is no compromise. Really it's shortsighted not to see the obvious comparison between the desktop to laptop migration and the laptop to tablet migration. I know I'm far from the only one who is profoundly affected by actually having Windows (or OSx if that's your preference) on an ipad sized tablet.

As for peripherals, you can spin it any way you like, but millions and millions of USB devices is not anything to sneeze at. Sure some of them are moving to wireless/bluetooth, but I'd rather not have to wait years for that to become standard, it just makes no sense in the meantime to not have a USB port and support, maybe it will in 5 or 10 years, but not today, and I don't buy my computers/tablets for 5-10 years down the road.

Do I think Apple is going to wither and die? Of course not, it's an incredible company that I have a profound respect and love for. But I do think they are going to have to turn on a dime here and reconsider the tablet world. Is there a place for a purely consumption driven tablet? Certainly yes, but the differentiating factor would have to be price. Dollar for dollar the ipad and the windows Pro Atom machines are about the same, so there is no differentiation between a consumer saying oh I can watch videos and play music for $699, or I can have Windows for $699 all other things being equal, which they are.

What I think is that Apple is too smart and they are already planning something, and of course the ipad momentum won't die overnight it will take years for that to happen. I'll bet Apple is really thinking about a full OS on a tablet, that's if their R and D hasn't already been working on it for years.

Technarchy
Oct 26, 2012, 12:05 PM
A funny thing about tablets...

Bill Gates was probably one of the most vocal advocates of tablets, long before the iPad existed.

How MSFT allowed Apple to come out of no where and basically devour nearly the entire tablet market is completely baffling.

However, while I think the Surface execution needs work, the Asus VivoTab RT Tablet looks far more sensible, and practical.

One thing that needs to happen immediately is everyone needs to stop using those ****** Tegra3 chips.

jmgregory1
Oct 26, 2012, 12:28 PM
"Complacency breeds mediocrity...They owned the market and rested on their laurels thinking they'd stay on top forever."


I just want to let that quote from you sink in, it's very significant. You are 110% correct, that's exactly what happened to Microsoft. They dropped the ball so badly in terms of tablets and smartphones now it is coming back and really hurting them.

But the reason I like your quote is that it seems, IMO, to describe Apple today. The ipad was incredibly revolutionary, it was complete genius and it moved us forward into the tablet world single handedly. But it has remained essentially the same since it was introduced, similar to the iphone, but you can get away with that much more easily in a phone than a "computer". Apple is very much so resting on their laurels, I can't say so much in the sense of hardware since they have improved cpu/gpu, retina screen, etc etc., but they've been incredibly complacent in their OS.

This is where it seems we part ways with our logic processes, and that's ok in a friendly discussion. But obviously we had a MAJOR revolution when laptops came out. People realized that they could lug around their computer with them and be productive, or game, or social, or whatever and not be tied to their home/work. This is the same revolution with tablets, except Apple did not allow us to truly take our laptops with us. It's Apples refusal to give us a full OS experience which IMO will hinder them in the future, it's a hubris. I think if a watered down OS like iOS was what people really wanted then we would all have some kind of stripped down iOS type OS on all of our laptops, maybe chrome, I don't know. But we don't, the vast vast majority, virtually all laptops are either Windows or OSx. Even Apple doesn't sell laptops with iOS on them.

It's understandable if from a technological point of view Apple did not put OSx on a tablet because of hardware constraints. But that day is here upon us TODAY, we have a full blown Windows 8 tablet with the same battery life, form factor, size, etc as the ipad. We have now crossed over from having to settle for a "phone OS" to a real OS, and I think that is going to impact a LOT of people similar to how laptops impacted desktop users, or how the ipad impacted laptop users, but even more so because now there is no compromise. Really it's shortsighted not to see the obvious comparison between the desktop to laptop migration and the laptop to tablet migration. I know I'm far from the only one who is profoundly affected by actually having Windows (or OSx if that's your preference) on an ipad sized tablet.

As for peripherals, you can spin it any way you like, but millions and millions of USB devices is not anything to sneeze at. Sure some of them are moving to wireless/bluetooth, but I'd rather not have to wait years for that to become standard, it just makes no sense in the meantime to not have a USB port and support, maybe it will in 5 or 10 years, but not today, and I don't buy my computers/tablets for 5-10 years down the road.

Do I think Apple is going to wither and die? Of course not, it's an incredible company that I have a profound respect and love for. But I do think they are going to have to turn on a dime here and reconsider the tablet world. Is there a place for a purely consumption driven tablet? Certainly yes, but the differentiating factor would have to be price. Dollar for dollar the ipad and the windows Pro Atom machines are about the same, so there is no differentiation between a consumer saying oh I can watch videos and play music for $699, or I can have Windows for $699 all other things being equal, which they are.

What I think is that Apple is too smart and they are already planning something, and of course the ipad momentum won't die overnight it will take years for that to happen. I'll bet Apple is really thinking about a full OS on a tablet, that's if their R and D hasn't already been working on it for years.

My only disagreement with you is that Apple is not resting on their laurels - even if what you see from them suggests that. They are still at the point of not fully maximizing what they can get out of the market as it exists today for the iPad, but that doesn't mean that they're not fully entrenched in working towards what the next great invention is. They are a business and the smart thing to do is to reach maximum penetration into a market before change is required to drive sales to a new level - or at least come close so that you don't pull the trigger too late and allow competitors to come in before you with something new.

If I didn't say this before - I'm not an iPad user. I don't see the need or use for it and I also feel the same for the Surface or any Android tabs. I use my iPhone for communication and fast replies to emails (as well as a whole slew of other productivity apps I use), but prefer my MacBook Air for everything else work related. For me, the smaller size of a tablet is just not do-able for the work I do (and for my aging eyes). If I created an app that would make proposals for me easier to do, then maybe I'd change my mind, but I'm not there yet.

The idea around the tablet wasn't to just make a single plane computer that works like a desktop or laptop. The apps that have been created were not just tablet versions of desktop programs, but rather configured to work the way a tablet works, using on-screen gestures and touch. Even MS's touting the ability to have two apps side by side, such as email and a spreadsheet - sounds like a desktop/laptop thing and would be great if it weren't for the fact that you've now shrunk both apps down further in size on an already small screen and that just can't be easy to work that way.

And I too am not buying tech for what will be available in 5 years. I'm saying things are changing much faster than that and what used to be usb only even last year is now wireless. Even the great G-tech external drive I keep archived files on went from being usb connected to my Air to now being connected to the wireless router so I don't have to have it directly connected to the laptop. As I said, change it is a coming even if you don't want it to come.

spinedoc77
Oct 26, 2012, 02:44 PM
My only disagreement with you is that Apple is not resting on their laurels - even if what you see from them suggests that. They are still at the point of not fully maximizing what they can get out of the market as it exists today for the iPad, but that doesn't mean that they're not fully entrenched in working towards what the next great invention is. They are a business and the smart thing to do is to reach maximum penetration into a market before change is required to drive sales to a new level - or at least come close so that you don't pull the trigger too late and allow competitors to come in before you with something new.

If I didn't say this before - I'm not an iPad user. I don't see the need or use for it and I also feel the same for the Surface or any Android tabs. I use my iPhone for communication and fast replies to emails (as well as a whole slew of other productivity apps I use), but prefer my MacBook Air for everything else work related. For me, the smaller size of a tablet is just not do-able for the work I do (and for my aging eyes). If I created an app that would make proposals for me easier to do, then maybe I'd change my mind, but I'm not there yet.

The idea around the tablet wasn't to just make a single plane computer that works like a desktop or laptop. The apps that have been created were not just tablet versions of desktop programs, but rather configured to work the way a tablet works, using on-screen gestures and touch. Even MS's touting the ability to have two apps side by side, such as email and a spreadsheet - sounds like a desktop/laptop thing and would be great if it weren't for the fact that you've now shrunk both apps down further in size on an already small screen and that just can't be easy to work that way.

And I too am not buying tech for what will be available in 5 years. I'm saying things are changing much faster than that and what used to be usb only even last year is now wireless. Even the great G-tech external drive I keep archived files on went from being usb connected to my Air to now being connected to the wireless router so I don't have to have it directly connected to the laptop. As I said, change it is a coming even if you don't want it to come.

Great discussion BTW. Your decision not to get the surface specifically makes sense if you need the 13" screen, but you cannot ostracize the entire Windows tablet scene for that reason because there will be 13" and larger windows tablets with keyboard docks with longer battery life than the macbook air. Think about that, you can have the best of both worlds of tablet and laptop AND better battery life. You are correct in that apps should be tailored for a tablet interface, but why settle for just that? Pop the tablet into its dock, make it a laptop and switch desktops to maximize standard computer programs. Of course if you have no use for a tablet at all then neither the ipad nor surface will appeal to you and you cannot necessarily defend the ipad, at least IMO.

As for Apple I agree to a point. I think they are resting on their laurels because they CAN afford to do so, everything they put out sells out instantly. I'm not saying that them resting on their laurels is a bad business decision, on the contrary it is pure genius. That's why I find it hard to believe they will continue to push iOS once the true laptop to tablet revolution begins, they are too smart for that. So yeah, we are certainly in agreement there.

I can't argue much that MS is kind of doing some weird stuff. Take RT for example, it's a necessary evil. RT is the consumption device which is truly destined to compete with iOS, but it doesn't have the ecosystem behind it and it is confusing to the average consumer. Lets hope MS puts it's full weight behind it, but I have a feeling that just like iOS the RT OS will only be temporary. The one advantage RT has is that it makes it easier to have more apps for MS' smartphones which I don't see getting a full Windows 8 OS for many many years, if ever.

jmgregory1
Oct 26, 2012, 05:06 PM
Great discussion BTW. Your decision not to get the surface specifically makes sense if you need the 13" screen, but you cannot ostracize the entire Windows tablet scene for that reason because there will be 13" and larger windows tablets with keyboard docks with longer battery life than the macbook air. Think about that, you can have the best of both worlds of tablet and laptop AND better battery life. You are correct in that apps should be tailored for a tablet interface, but why settle for just that? Pop the tablet into its dock, make it a laptop and switch desktops to maximize standard computer programs. Of course if you have no use for a tablet at all then neither the ipad nor surface will appeal to you and you cannot necessarily defend the ipad, at least IMO.

As for Apple I agree to a point. I think they are resting on their laurels because they CAN afford to do so, everything they put out sells out instantly. I'm not saying that them resting on their laurels is a bad business decision, on the contrary it is pure genius. That's why I find it hard to believe they will continue to push iOS once the true laptop to tablet revolution begins, they are too smart for that. So yeah, we are certainly in agreement there.

I can't argue much that MS is kind of doing some weird stuff. Take RT for example, it's a necessary evil. RT is the consumption device which is truly destined to compete with iOS, but it doesn't have the ecosystem behind it and it is confusing to the average consumer. Lets hope MS puts it's full weight behind it, but I have a feeling that just like iOS the RT OS will only be temporary. The one advantage RT has is that it makes it easier to have more apps for MS' smartphones which I don't see getting a full Windows 8 OS for many many years, if ever.

I agree with where the discussion is going. It's nice to be able to have an open discussion where real issues can be freely exchanged.

I'm not ostracizing the Windows tablet scene, I'm more fully dubious of the entire tablet scene, iPad and Android-based tablets included. It's very specific to my own issues, mostly related to the screen size, if I'm going to use it as a replacement for a laptop.

Maybe there will be a time when the screen only form factor (in a 13" or larger size) will work, or would have value, for me, but today I'm not seeing it. And don't be so sure that a larger sized tablet would offer better battery life (than my Air) because a larger screen uses more energy. If you say all things are equal and you just take the current Air's total thickness and weight as an example of where you'd be with a tablet. I'm not sure I'd want a tablet to be that big and heavy - or rather I'd just ask myself why not just have it be a laptop? Add to the weight, an issue of fingerprints covering such a broad expanse of screen - it would drive me crazy. I hate the environmental dust and stuff that covers the screen of my Air after a weeks work and I'm not touching the screen at all.

Apple vs MS - it's a philosophical thing. Apple's chose to take the iPhone and iPad down a path that diverged from the desktop OS because they looked at the usage of an iPad and iPhone as being distinctly different than that of a desktop. So people are now getting "bored" with iOS's simplistic use of static icons for apps because - well because it's not like their desktop or laptop computer (although I for one don't have any active "widgets" on my laptop so I'm not missing anything on my iPhone and wouldn't miss anything if I had an iPad).

I'm not one to be bored with this style and I understand the reasoning behind it. If I want something active on the iOS device, just open an app. With iOS, you can so quickly and easily see, navigate, open and close apps, that you really don't need the old school file system to manage apps and files and having all sorts of pretty lights and moving objects on a screen that simply sucks battery life is not something I subscribe to.

Apple is trying to take learnings from iOS and apply them to OSX, with Launchpad being a perfect example. But I hardly ever use Launchpad and instead rely on the dock to see what I've got running.

I think your comment of Apple resting on their laurels means something a little different than I meant. You're saying that because they're not releasing something new and different, they're resting on their laurels? I think, or can actually guarantee, that Apple is always working on new innovative products, systems and services, but the release of new things is set on a calendar that you and I are not privy to until they're ready to release said new thing.

Windows RT and even 8 will live or die depending upon the number and functionality of the apps they can get developers to create and that hopefully consumers will buy said apps which will then further push development of new apps. It's the system Apple has created and it's one reason why their iOS devices are so popular. Even 8 being able to run MS based full programs on a tablet will only work if the experience is one that works for the consumer. If they have to compromise, it won't spell long-term success for the platform. That has been my point to the tablet vs desktop/laptop argument. A 9.7" tablet cum laptop is nothing much more than a 9.7" netbook. It's a jack of all trades, master of none.

spinedoc77
Oct 26, 2012, 05:38 PM
I agree with where the discussion is going. It's nice to be able to have an open discussion where real issues can be freely exchanged.

I'm not ostracizing the Windows tablet scene, I'm more fully dubious of the entire tablet scene, iPad and Android-based tablets included. It's very specific to my own issues, mostly related to the screen size, if I'm going to use it as a replacement for a laptop.

Maybe there will be a time when the screen only form factor (in a 13" or larger size) will work, or would have value, for me, but today I'm not seeing it. And don't be so sure that a larger sized tablet would offer better battery life (than my Air) because a larger screen uses more energy. If you say all things are equal and you just take the current Air's total thickness and weight as an example of where you'd be with a tablet. I'm not sure I'd want a tablet to be that big and heavy - or rather I'd just ask myself why not just have it be a laptop? Add to the weight, an issue of fingerprints covering such a broad expanse of screen - it would drive me crazy. I hate the environmental dust and stuff that covers the screen of my Air after a weeks work and I'm not touching the screen at all.

Apple vs MS - it's a philosophical thing. Apple's chose to take the iPhone and iPad down a path that diverged from the desktop OS because they looked at the usage of an iPad and iPhone as being distinctly different than that of a desktop. So people are now getting "bored" with iOS's simplistic use of static icons for apps because - well because it's not like their desktop or laptop computer (although I for one don't have any active "widgets" on my laptop so I'm not missing anything on my iPhone and wouldn't miss anything if I had an iPad).

I'm not one to be bored with this style and I understand the reasoning behind it. If I want something active on the iOS device, just open an app. With iOS, you can so quickly and easily see, navigate, open and close apps, that you really don't need the old school file system to manage apps and files and having all sorts of pretty lights and moving objects on a screen that simply sucks battery life is not something I subscribe to.

Apple is trying to take learnings from iOS and apply them to OSX, with Launchpad being a perfect example. But I hardly ever use Launchpad and instead rely on the dock to see what I've got running.

I think your comment of Apple resting on their laurels means something a little different than I meant. You're saying that because they're not releasing something new and different, they're resting on their laurels? I think, or can actually guarantee, that Apple is always working on new innovative products, systems and services, but the release of new things is set on a calendar that you and I are not privy to until they're ready to release said new thing.

Windows RT and even 8 will live or die depending upon the number and functionality of the apps they can get developers to create and that hopefully consumers will buy said apps which will then further push development of new apps. It's the system Apple has created and it's one reason why their iOS devices are so popular. Even 8 being able to run MS based full programs on a tablet will only work if the experience is one that works for the consumer. If they have to compromise, it won't spell long-term success for the platform. That has been my point to the tablet vs desktop/laptop argument. A 9.7" tablet cum laptop is nothing much more than a 9.7" netbook. It's a jack of all trades, master of none.

Some good points. Personally I just sold my Macbook Air. I bought it primarily for the beautiful hardware as I cannot stand OSx and ran Windows exclusively on it unless I was dabbling in Xcode. When I say we will soon have a 13" tablet with dock with a better battery life than the macbook air, that's in laptop mode AND tablet mode. Tablet mode the atom chips should get 8-10 hours, but in docking mode some of the current ones are getting 14-18 hours! Many of them currently are about the same thickness and weight of the macbook air, they are all just 11.6" max though currently, and they are about half the price if you are looking at the atom CPUs, maybe a bit more than half with the dock. So for almost half the money I can have the size and weight of the macbook air, have a detachable tablet which IS my computer not an addon ipad, have 3-4 times the battery life, if not more, etc etc. The only thing missing so far is the 13" screen, but I have no doubt that will come very soon.

Apple resting on their laurels, IMO most definitely yes. Certainly they are working on the next big thing, but iOS being almost the same as when it was released nearly 5 years ago is to me being complacent, or what is more true is them realizing that people will still line up in droves to purchase their products. I feel as if Apple is going to be forced to utilize whatever ideas they have been working on, or invent new ones, and competition is a GREAT thing.

As for apps, I have confidence that Microsoft will put their full weight behind it. They are a software company, and look what they did with what's arguably at the top of every windows users software list, Office. Don't forget that we have the Metro UI on desktops as well so developers already have millions and millions of possible consumers right out of the gate.

It's certainly going to be an interesting and exciting time from here on out.