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View Full Version : I predict the Surface will flop due to lack of software




cnev3
Oct 26, 2012, 04:45 PM
Software/Content is vital. You can have a tablet thats the thinnest, fastest, has the most storage space, most incredibly display, but if it doesn't have an equally good selection of quality software, it's doomed.

The Zune HD was a sleek device with a handful of great features the iPod Touch didn't have, but it flopped due to a lack of apps. I thought Microsoft would have learned their lesson, but they seem to be taking the same "Build it, and they will come", approach.

My main concern is that developers arent attracted to release their software on a platform that's not popular. At least compared to the millions of Android and iOS users who buy their apps.

Maybe i'm wrong, and the device will succeed. Hopefully I am. Competition is good, and we need a fresh device to keep everyone else on their toes.

But I just don't see the sense in buying a tablet that severely lacks software. I'll bump this thread in 1 year to see how right/wrong I was.

I made a post in 2009 on ifans.com, 4 days after the Zune HD was released regarding my concern for it's lack of apps.

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd475/cptncheesecake/ScreenShot2012-10-27at103642PM.png

Let's see if I can make my predictions 2 for 2.



Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 04:52 PM
Won't be just because of software, but a series of things.

No upgrade path, technological advances such as x86 chips, pricing, and a lack of interest of RT.

The Pro version however is a different story.

beyondthepale35
Oct 26, 2012, 04:55 PM
As of now, I think the basic apps are enough for a majority of people. Since Microsoft is now focused on combining Phone, Tablet, and PC markets I think in a few months time the app store will grow exponentially. They stressed the importance of using the same kernel in those devices so an app developed for tablets could easily be ported to windows phone/windows 8 and vice versa.

They are bringing a lot of exciting features to the tablet game, especially with Pro, so I wouldnt immediately dismiss them just yet. For all the talk of the Apple ecosystem, the tablet market is still relatively young, and when most of the world still uses Windows PCs I think it makes a lot more sense when they're making the jump to consider a windows branded tablet as well.

balamw
Oct 26, 2012, 04:55 PM
Difference here (vs. Zune) is that W8 RT on ARM will also be available from other MS partners.

Still no guarantee it will succeed.

I think OS X on ARM would have a better shot at it, especially since Apple has already dealt with fat binaries.

B

b166er
Oct 26, 2012, 05:02 PM
Surface is up against a lot of things-

-The lack of Windows 8 tablet/phone apps

-The iPad (love it or hate it, it has never been dethroned in its market)

-Third party manufacturers can and will build surface-style tablets and undercut the MS price while possibly offering a better (specs wise) product.

I am rooting for the surface. I think it's up to developers to make Windows 8 really shine. It looks like a really cool mobile platform. Native MS office support is a huge plus. If MS really wants to do it right they should create as much awesome MS exclusive/surface only content as they can.

k995
Oct 26, 2012, 05:09 PM
Software/Content is vital. You can have a tablet thats the thinnest, fastest, has the most storage space, most incredibly display, but if it doesn't have an equally good selection of quality software, it's doomed.

The Zune HD was a sleek device with a handful of great features the iPod Touch didn't have, but it flopped due to a lack of apps. I thought Microsoft would have learned their lesson, but they seem to be taking the same "Build it, and they will come", approach.

My main concern is that developers arent attracted to release their software on a platform that's not popular. At least compared to the millions of Android and iOS users who buy their apps.

Maybe i'm wrong, and the device will succeed. Hopefully I am. Competition is good, and we need a fresh device to keep everyone else on their toes.

But I just don't see the sense in buying a tablet that severely lacks software. I'll bump this thread in 1 year to see how right/wrong I was.

Zune was always an mp3 player . As for windows 8 projections are more users then android or ios within the year. That means a store that reaches just as much people for your app by 2014 . And as with android thats just official, unofficial the number of user will probably be more .

LizKat
Oct 26, 2012, 05:15 PM
Think I prefer aluminum to that magnesium-compound case, for openers. The Ars Tech reviewer wasn't thrilled with the power connector. Guess stuff like that could be ironed out in next iterations. I actually wish them success too, because competition keeps people from snoozing as product lines refresh.

MacRumorUser
Oct 26, 2012, 05:31 PM
Too early to call it. Due to sheer volume of windows 8 pcs the App Store will undoubtably see a rapid expansion of applications. Now whether windows developers decide to make them available on RT devices is another thing, (not all apps available on Win 8 App Store will be available on RT App Store (those that require x86/64 hardware) so again its probably best to wait and see.

Cod3rror
Oct 26, 2012, 05:51 PM
Even if it has software, I still won't buy it. There is no protection and no guarantee with Microsoft at all.

You cannot download and backup the installation files. You cannot redownload apps that have been taken down for some reason... recently a developer decided it was not worth their time to develop their app for Windows Phone. They took it down and people who paid for it got nothing in return, no refunds, nothing.

PhoneI
Oct 26, 2012, 06:00 PM
Even if it has software, I still won't buy it. There is no protection and no guarantee with Microsoft at all.

You cannot download and backup the installation files. You cannot redownload apps that have been taken down for some reason... recently a developer decided it was not worth their time to develop their app for Windows Phone. They took it down and people who paid for it got nothing in return, no refunds, nothing.

So a developer abandoned his app? This happens all the time with iOS too. What is the difference?

The Face
Oct 26, 2012, 06:02 PM
Personally I don't feel Microsoft have a place in the tablet or phone market, their OS just doesn't offer anything that hasn't already been done and is extremely lacklustre.

It just seems like Microsoft is trying to play catch up with Android & iOS, maybe they'll succeed, maybe they won't. But right now, the mobile & tablet market belong to Android & iOS so Microsoft need to bring something really special to the table to start being a true competitor. Windows 8 does look promising on the Surface, hopefully it'll take off.

Cod3rror
Oct 26, 2012, 06:29 PM
So a developer abandoned his app? This happens all the time with iOS too. What is the difference?

The difference is that with iOS, I'd have the ipa file backup and if I wanted to later, I'd go ahead and reinstall the app anytime I wanted. I own the installation file.

And even if I hadn't had the ipa file backed up, in iTunes whatever you bought, you can download later on, even if it was taken down for whatever reason. If you paid for it, you won't lose it.

You know that Firefox Home app that Mozilla took down recently from the iTunes? Yea, I can go ahead and reinstall it if I wanted to, cause I downloaded it before and it's on my account. People who have downloaded the first Tetris clones that got taken down? Can redownload them again.

That's awesome and inspires trust and security.

With Microsoft, poof, it's gone, nothing you can do, you paid for it and the developer decided - "Meh, I don't want to do this anymore" the next day the app is gone from the store, from your account, and if you ever want to reinstall it on your phone you cannot. Your money got wasted, Microsoft has TOTAL control.

There, I explained as clearly as I could, if you still cannot understand the difference between Apple's and Microsoft's practices, sorry, but I cannot help you.

smellysox8
Oct 26, 2012, 06:31 PM
I bet the Xbox will flop because of the lack of exclusive games. :rolleyes:

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 06:35 PM
Please don't use the Xbox crutch. That is the only consumer product that Microsoft has ever seen success with. Everything else that has a consumer choice, MS flops.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 06:41 PM
Using the "Xbox crutch" is the equal opposite of saying "MIKROCRAP WILL FAIL CUZ ZUUUNNNNEEEE".

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 06:45 PM
No, not at all. The Xbox was needed, Sega was already failing, and Sony didn't have a direct competitor.

Zune failed because it was five years late, and didn't offer anything but a different UI, and crazy colors.

People only mention Xbox because it is the only successful consumer product that Microsoft has ever had. Not mentioning the over 60% failure rate either.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 06:54 PM
No, not at all. The Xbox was needed, Sega was already failing, and Sony didn't have a direct competitor.

They had Nintendo, who was doing...eh, alright with the Gamecube.

Zune failed because it was five years late, and didn't offer anything but a different UI, and crazy colors.

I'd say the Zune failed because it was too focused a device, and didn't get much marketing beyond a few kiosks in a few stores. The iPod by that point was a household name, and had morphed into some that was less just an MP3 player, and more a simplified PDA.

People only mention Xbox because it is the only successful consumer product that Microsoft has ever had. Not mentioning the over 60% failure rate either.

You mean besides Windows and Office? Microsoft's Mice, keyboards, and accessories have always sold solidly. The Xbox was their only consumer product outside the Windows environment that sold well, but considering that list only includes the Zune, I wouldn't say they've outright failed in all their attempts in the consumer space.

...oh, yeah. And the Kin. But I always got the impression that was them whipping up something just to see how it did. it wasn't well supported, and they probably dumped all of $10,000 into R&D on the thing. If it succeeded for them, bonus. If not, oh well.

PhoneI
Oct 26, 2012, 07:01 PM
The difference is that with iOS, I'd have the ipa file backup and if I wanted to later, I'd go ahead and reinstall the app anytime I wanted. I own the installation file.

And even if I hadn't had the ipa file backed up, in iTunes whatever you bought, you can download later on, even if it was taken down for whatever reason. If you paid for it, you won't lose it.

You know that Firefox Home app that Mozilla took down recently from the iTunes? Yea, I can go ahead and reinstall it if I wanted to, cause I downloaded it before and it's on my account. People who have downloaded the first Tetris clones that got taken down? Can redownload them again.

That's awesome and inspires trust and security.

With Microsoft, poof, it's gone, nothing you can do, you paid for it and the developer decided - "Meh, I don't want to do this anymore" the next day the app is gone from the store, from your account, and if you ever want to reinstall it on your phone you cannot. Your money got wasted, Microsoft has TOTAL control.

There, I explained as clearly as I could, if you still cannot understand the difference between Apple's and Microsoft's practices, sorry, but I cannot help you.

So you would have the opportunity to re-install software (that I happened to delete) that will never be upgraded or improved up ever again. I'm sorry, but how many people (besides yourself obviously) is this really going to affect?

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 07:06 PM
I didn't mention Nintendo because they focus on an entirely different market then Sony.

I said consumer products with a choice. The only choice you have with computers is Dell, Sony, Samsung etc...all running Windows.

Office is a business standard. Again not consumer choice.

When given a choice, people don't choose Microsoft. Well known fact.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 07:19 PM
I didn't mention Nintendo because they focus on an entirely different market then Sony.

In the console scene? The PS2 was a direct competitor to the Gamecube. They were in the exact same market. Sony might do more than Nintendo, but then again, so does MS.

I said consumer products with a choice. The only choice you have with computers is Dell, Sony, Samsung etc...all running Windows.

No choice, yet you list off 3 companies consumers have to choose between. Beyond the Windows scene, they also have Macs to choose from.

Office is a business standard. Again not consumer choice.

...that has a strong presence in homes. It isn't an enterprise exclusive product like Server, Exchange, and all that other stuff.

When given a choice, people don't choose Microsoft. Well known fact.

Apparently they do. The MS stores being packed due to the Surface's release (which honestly surprised even me) is proof enough of that.

From the looks of things, The Surface might not be the much fabled iPad killer, but it's gonna be a little success nonetheless.

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 07:31 PM
In the console scene? The PS2 was a direct competitor to the Gamecube. They were in the exact same market. Sony might do more than Nintendo, but then again, so does MS.


Nintendo= children, casual gamers
Sony = teenage,hardcore gamers


No choice, yet you list off 3 companies consumers have to choose between. Beyond the Windows scene, they also have Macs to choose from.

Read it again, they all run windows. Macs cost a lot more than PCs. If Mac and PC had the exact same prices, then that would be a choice, but it's not.

You can't walk into BestBuy and exactly choose a Linux computer can you?


...that has a strong presence in homes. It isn't an enterprise exclusive product like Server, Exchange, and all that other stuff.

Due to business standards, and every computer running Windows. Again not a choice.

This is basic business stuff btw.


Apparently they do. The MS stores being packed due to the Surface's release (which honestly surprised even me) is proof enough of that.

From the looks of things, The Surface might not be the much fabled iPad killer, but it's gonna be a little success nonetheless.


Not exactly that many Microsoft stores, and you forgot to mention a ton of people were actually buying Windows. Not a RT device.

Cod3rror
Oct 26, 2012, 07:33 PM
So you would have the opportunity to re-install software (that I happened to delete) that will never be upgraded or improved up ever again. I'm sorry, but how many people (besides yourself obviously) is this really going to affect?

YES! I still use Firefox Home, it works beautifully, does not need any improvements.

With Microsoft, this app would've been completely wiped away. If I did a fresh restore, I would not be able to do anything about it.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 07:47 PM
Nintendo= children, casual gamers
Sony = teenage,hardcore gamers

Kiddie is the generic consensus on game forums, and the casual market only became a thing with them after the introduction of the Wii. We're talking about the Gamecube here.

The two are in the same market, aiming at the same demographics.

Read it again, they all run windows. Macs cost a lot more than PCs. If Mac and PC had the exact same prices, then that would be a choice, but it's not.

Mac Mini's have been available for years, and offer more than enough for the average consumer. They are a choice.

You can't walk into BestBuy and exactly choose a Linux computer can you?

No one would buy it. Dell had offered Linux PCs in the past. They didn't sell. Hence why it's not more widely available these days.

Though you could argue MS made a name for itself as the standard during their heavy handed monopoly days, but still...the option was at least out there at one point.

Due to business standards, and every computer running Windows. Again not a choice.

Yeah, I know. Saying I know a guy who knows a guy and this is why you're wrong is never a good way to prove usage.

...but

I do know 4 people who use Office for home use. So it does have usage outside of enterprise.

Not exactly that many Microsoft stores, and you forgot to mention a ton of people were actually buying Windows. Not a RT device.

So they were making a choice to upgrade their version of Windows instead of getting it on a new PC? Isn't that...a choice?

Even if there aren't that many MS stores, people do apparently visit them. Which is somewhat proof that people are going in there because they want to see what they're offering, not because they don't have any other choice.

Really, the only abject failure MS has produced is the Zune. You can word and reword your argument all you want, but that is the simple fact of the matter.

Technarchy
Oct 26, 2012, 07:50 PM
I want the Surface to succeed but I think RT could be a problem for many reasons.

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 08:18 PM
Kiddie is the generic consensus on game forums, and the casual market only became a thing with them after the introduction of the Wii. We're talking about the Gamecube here.

The two are in the same market, aiming at the same demographics.

No, go read a case study or do a basic google search. At the specific time, they weren't.


Mac Mini's have been available for years, and offer more than enough for the average consumer. They are a choice.

That doesn't make any sense, when you can buy a full blown PC with all the peripherals, you know screen, mouse, keyboard? Are you even being serious?


No one would buy it. Dell had offered Linux PCs in the past. They didn't sell. Hence why it's not more widely available these days.


No, they offered a gimped version on crappy hardware and was still sued. Ever heard of MS war on Linux? No OEM can sell Linux computers without a lawsuit, and higher prices from MS. This is some of the first stuff you learn about Microsoft in any respectable business school or basic research.


Yeah, I know. Saying I know a guy who knows a guy and this is why you're wrong is never a good way to prove usage.

...but

I do know 4 people who use Office for home use. So it does have usage outside of enterprise.

Comprehension? I sad by choice, people don't go buy Office for fun especially when there are free alternatives. Consumers only use office because it's format is widely accepted. Again not by choice. It's business standard, and people usually stick to what they know, and most just don't know about the free alternatives.

Again this is basic information.


So they were making a choice to upgrade their version of Windows instead of getting it on a new PC? Isn't that...a choice?

I'm specifically arguing Windows RT failure, what does this statement or any of the other stuff has to do with that?



Really, the only abject failure MS has produced is the Zune. You can word and reword your argument all you want, but that is the simple fact of the matter.

Every consumer product that MS has, has been a failure. Not just the Zune, but MS smart watch, windows phone, windows mobile 5,6, 6.5x, 7,7.5. Kin, Bing, DVD players with Media Center etc... The list goes on.

Any reasonable person knows exactly what I'm talking about. Consumer products that offer a choice.

PhoneI
Oct 26, 2012, 08:28 PM
YES! I still use Firefox Home, it works beautifully, does not need any improvements.

With Microsoft, this app would've been completely wiped away. If I did a fresh restore, I would not be able to do anything about it.

Firefox home doesn't need any improvements, patches, security updates?....hmm.

Even you would have to admit, you are probably in a serious minority about this.

SpyderBite
Oct 26, 2012, 08:32 PM
As long as there's an Angry Birds port for the Surface, apps for the target market won't matter. XD

pesos
Oct 26, 2012, 08:38 PM
Way too early to call. I've only had mine for 90 minutes or so but already the iPad seems like a toy in comparison. I've been able to add all my activesync accounts, remote in and make some server changes via RDP, fire up Lync and have a couple of business related chats and calls, and edit some word and excel docs and send them back out. The small subset of what I just did that is possible on the iPad is clunky - the type cover is a gamechanger (I haven't even had a chance to try out the touch cover yet). Being able to plug in a usb keyboard/mouse/hard drive/etc is very nice.

As for non-enterprise stuff, Skype looks nice and seems to work very well. IE works fine - didn't do much browsing yet. Netflix works fine. I see angry birds in the store lol.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 08:41 PM
No, go read a case study or do a basic google search. At the specific time, they weren't.

No, they were a console regarded as being "kiddy", when in fact they were going after the same demographic.

That doesn't make any sense, when you can buy a full blown PC with all the peripherals, you know screen, mouse, keyboard? Are you even being serious

Do people go out and buy new screens and mice everytime they get a PC? The Mini is as viable an upgrade as any PC in this situation. Consumers did have choice.

No, they offered a gimped version on crappy hardware and was still sued. Ever heard of MS war on Linux? No OEM can sell Linux computers without a lawsuit, and higher prices from MS. This is some of the first stuff you learn about Microsoft in any respectable business school or basic research.

No OEM could sell Linux computers without facing a lawsuit. This ended sometime in the early 00's, when MS was slapped with the antitrust stick. Now any OEM can sell Linux, and has attempted to do so. It didn't catch on with consumers, though.

And it wasn't gimped Linux. You could buy Dell desktops with a full copy of Ubuntu if you wanted.

Comprehension? I sad by choice, people don't go buy Office for fun especially when there are free alternatives. Consumers only use office because it's format is widely accepted. Again not by choice. It's business standard, and people usually stick to what they know, and most just don't know about the free alternatives.

Yeah, comprehension is nice. I said not everyone goes out and buys Office for it's enterprise compatibility. It's a well known brand name. Someone wanting to use Office for their home might do so on the strength of its name, rather than not having any other choice.

I'm specifically arguing Windows RT failure, what does this statement or any of the other stuff has to do with that?

You mentioned no one every buying MS products by choice, I mention people swamping MS Stores for the release of the Surface, then you turn around and say they're all buying Windows.

So why are they buying Windows? That assumes they're getting the upgrade to Windows 8, right? Which means they're choosing to buy an MS product. Which goes against what you're claiming, considering they could wait to have it foisted upon them when they buy a new PC, rather than buying the disc now.

Every consumer product that MS has, has been a failure. Not just the Zune, but MS smart watch, windows phone, windows mobile 5,6, 6.5x, 7,7.5. Kin, Bing, DVD players with Media Center etc... The list goes on.

MS Smart Watch? What's that?

Secondly, Windows Mobile was hardly a failure. Rather, it was more popular in enterprise, rather than the consumer space...which it wasn't marketed for. Bing? It's not pulling the numbers Google does, and a little too much money has been dumped into it, but it's being used by quite a few people. Not exactly a failure. DVD players with Media Center? Never once saw that. It was probably a side item offered by an OEM with a license to a Media Center alike, rather than MS directly. And if MS were selling it directly, they sure as hell didn't advertise it. Media Center as I know it was a built in item inside of Windows for people who wanted to use their PCs as part of their home theatre setup. On that front, it was a rather well respected product.

Failures? Hardly.

I also love the way you throw around "common knowledge" and "reasonable" in a vain attemt at portraying yourself as an unbiased source with a level head. It makes you look like you're trying too hard.

----------

As long as there's an Angry Birds port for the Surface, apps for the target market won't matter. XD

Bad Piggies is better. :mad:

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 08:57 PM
I give up Renzatic. When you go look at the numbers, and come back let me know.

Microsoft is not a consumer company. The Xbox, bing, and every other consumer product they have is less than 5% of Microsoft combined.

Microsoft is a enterprise and business company, this includes Windows and Office btw, you know right? This makes up 95% of Microsoft. Fact.

How profitable was the consumer divisions last quarter? How about ever?

You don't even about the smart watches , but claim the Zune was the only failure.

But yeah, you have good excuses though. Creative might I add.

Vegastouch
Oct 26, 2012, 09:08 PM
Software/Content is vital. You can have a tablet thats the thinnest, fastest, has the most storage space, most incredibly display, but if it doesn't have an equally good selection of quality software, it's doomed.

The Zune HD was a sleek device with a handful of great features the iPod Touch didn't have, but it flopped due to a lack of apps. I thought Microsoft would have learned their lesson, but they seem to be taking the same "Build it, and they will come", approach.

My main concern is that developers arent attracted to release their software on a platform that's not popular. At least compared to the millions of Android and iOS users who buy their apps.

Maybe i'm wrong, and the device will succeed. Hopefully I am. Competition is good, and we need a fresh device to keep everyone else on their toes.

But I just don't see the sense in buying a tablet that severely lacks software. I'll bump this thread in 1 year to see how right/wrong I was.
I think you are and you will be. There are over 100,000 apps for the Windows phone so the basics are there that everyone uses and i think the Windows 8 is going to succeed. I think im going to get one but dont know in what capacity. Laptop, tablet or PC. Im open to a phone as well but id rather have the Nexus 4 if i get another one but ill wait to try them out.

I dont think the Phone side of Windows 8 will succeed as fast as the other products but i do believe overall it will sell well.

----------

No, not at all. The Xbox was needed, Sega was already failing, and Sony didn't have a direct competitor.

Zune failed because it was five years late, and didn't offer anything but a different UI, and crazy colors.

People only mention Xbox because it is the only successful consumer product that Microsoft has ever had. Not mentioning the over 60% failure rate either.

Yeah, Windows and PC sales running it were a failure :rolleyes:

Besides Windows operating systems, Zune, Xbox and some recent phones that are going to be vastly better now, what other products have they made that failed?

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 09:14 PM
^ every consumer product that isn't Xbox. Do a quick google, go look at financials. Notice I sad consumer products. Windows and Office is in the business and enterprise categories.

Vegastouch
Oct 26, 2012, 09:30 PM
^ every consumer product that isn't Xbox. Do a quick google, go look at financials. Notice I sad consumer products. Windows and Office is in the business and enterprise categories.

I know you said every other product and im asking you what else failed? Your going to mention Windows Office? Thats was a failure? Its used in many businesses and it is a software that isnt a main function if you know what i mean. Thats like saying Garageband was a failure.
Im not going to look it up. I didnt make the statement.

G51989
Oct 26, 2012, 09:32 PM
Please don't use the Xbox crutch. That is the only consumer product that Microsoft has ever seen success with. Everything else that has a consumer choice, MS flops.

So...... 90 percent of the computers in the world run Windows...... Flop!?

Over 1.25 billion office users? Flop?

XBOX is a major player and,sold very well....flop?

Surface generated lines at stores and the 32gb sold out...flop?

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 09:33 PM
I know you said every other product and im asking you what else failed? Your going to mention Windows Office? Thats was a failure? Its used in many businesses and it is a software that isnt a main function if you know what i mean. Thats like saying Garageband was a failure.
Im not going to look it up. I didnt make the statement.


Lol, did you read what you quoted? You want to refute what I typed without knowing anything about it? Ok....

Vetvito
Oct 26, 2012, 09:36 PM
So...... 90 percent of the computers in the world run Windows...... Flop!?

Over 1.25 billion office users? Flop?

XBOX is a major player and,sold very well....flop?

Surface generated lines at stores and the 32gb sold out...flop?

I give up, some people don't understand the difference between Consumer products with open competition and the world of MS business and enterprise products. Who said those products flop? Or are you commenting without comprehending like the others are?

PhoneI
Oct 26, 2012, 09:41 PM
Way too early to call. I've only had mine for 90 minutes or so but already the iPad seems like a toy in comparison. I've been able to add all my activesync accounts, remote in and make some server changes via RDP, fire up Lync and have a couple of business related chats and calls, and edit some word and excel docs and send them back out. The small subset of what I just did that is possible on the iPad is clunky - the type cover is a gamechanger (I haven't even had a chance to try out the touch cover yet). Being able to plug in a usb keyboard/mouse/hard drive/etc is very nice.

As for non-enterprise stuff, Skype looks nice and seems to work very well. IE works fine - didn't do much browsing yet. Netflix works fine. I see angry birds in the store lol.

I can do all of that from my laptop. The surface makes for a good laptop, but a poor tablet. I am finding myself reaching for my iPad instead of my surface for web browsing and reading.

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 09:45 PM
I think it's you defining an arbitrary line between the two so you can say MS has never succeeded in the consumer sector (save for the Xbox) that's causing problems here.

It's like Windows 7? Bought by millions of consumers? Business product. Doesn't count.

Office being used in homes? Enterprise product. Null and void.

You're defining terms so you can win the argument. Yeah, MS has had a few failures in its day, and it is primarily an enterprise company, but they do have a very strong consumer presence that can't be denied. A few of their badly thought out toys failing in the marketplace isn't indicative of them being a complete failure there.

----------

I can do all of that from my laptop. The surface makes for a good laptop, but a poor tablet. I am finding myself reaching for my iPad instead of my surface for web browsing and reading.

Quick question here. Is it because of the size and screen orientation, or the way the apps handle?

MacRumorUser
Oct 26, 2012, 09:46 PM
As long as there's an Angry Birds port for the Surface, apps for the target market won't matter. XD

Tell that to Meego & WebOS ;)

Renzatic
Oct 26, 2012, 09:49 PM
Tell that to Meego & WebOS ;)

I had high hopes for WebOS. None of the other mobile OSes out at the moment, Metro, iOS, Android, even come close to the pure smoothness and excellent UI it offers.

Shame HP are a bunch of jackasses and had to yank it off the shelves before it even had a chance to make a name for itself.

Icaras
Oct 26, 2012, 09:52 PM
Nintendo= children, casual gamers
Sony = teenage,hardcore gamers

Odd how the Gamecube was the only console for the Resident Evil remake ever to be made it to (even to this day). That and Resident Evil 4 first debuted on the GC before PS2. I certainly also don't remember Eternal Darkness ever being "kiddy". In fact that was game was pretty psychologically disturbing. Fact is there were several key M rated games that made their way to the Gamecube just not in the abundance as in the PS2. It was a general variety type console, but I have never considered it kiddy. I have plenty of Gamecube titles that would directly go against your personal claims.

Anyway, done with rant. Sorry for getting off topic here...

Vegastouch
Oct 26, 2012, 10:06 PM
Lol, did you read what you quoted? You want to refute what I typed without knowing anything about it? Ok....

Well lets see some proof. You are making statements as a fact and when a few people refute it, you just say you give up. And what others are comprehending? I dont see anybody agreeing w/ you.

Show some facts that back you up and ill be a believer. If your not interested in that then dont make statements and assume everyone knows what your talking about because overall id say MS was a success.

I just dont think the Windows 8 product will fail because you say it will. Windows OS has never failed though ME wasnt that great.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 12:15 AM
Read it again, they all run windows. Macs cost a lot more than PCs. If Mac and PC had the exact same prices, then that would be a choice, but it's not.

The Mac mini has been around for years, costs the same as most PC towers ( Really go into best buy, the vast majority of towers on sale are between 500-700 dollars. Right in the mini's price range ), and yet they don't pick the Mac, Most of the newer all AOI's are in the same price range as the iMac, and yet the PC AOI's sell more.

The fact is, Windows PC's are just more versitile, and longer lasting than Macs, this is a fact. Apple drops support for machines sometimes even less than 4 years old, while Windows 8 will run on Computers from a decade ago.

Apple stops supporting their OS's after a few years, Microsoft supported XP for over a decade. And they will support 7 for over a decade as well.

You can't walk into BestBuy and exactly choose a Linux computer can you?

There was a time when you could, you could buy a decent PC with a couple difference choices of distros, and they even had tons of Linux Distros lined up on the shelf, no one bought them.

Due to business standards, and every computer running Windows. Again not a choice.

Business standards? Business standards don't apply to the home, Windows still dominates.

Business's have a choice between Windows, OSX, and Linux, they choose windows, because its the best at what its meant to do. If OSX was so good, why doesn't enterprise rely on Apple?

This is basic business stuff btw.

" Basic business stuff btw ", Is that short talk for pulling claims out of your ass?

Not exactly that many Microsoft stores, and you forgot to mention a ton of people were actually buying Windows. Not a RT device.

Yep, NO ONE bought a surface, despite them selling out the first shipment of 32gb models, and crowds lining up in times Square and other MS stores to try out the surface.

No, go read a case study or do a basic google search. At the specific time, they weren't.

Where you even around at the time? Plenty of adult games came out for the Gamecube.

That doesn't make any sense, when you can buy a full blown PC with all the peripherals, you know screen, mouse, keyboard? Are you even being serious?

As far as I can tell, the majority of consumer PC's cost between 500-800 dollars because unless you go to Wal Mart or target, thats what the majority of them are priced at, yes some people go buy the 300 dollar pile o ****, but most of them seem to spend between 500-800 bucks. Well within the Minis's price range.

Personally, why would anyone buy a mini? Its a POS. Work harder and buy an iMac.

No, they offered a gimped version on crappy hardware and was still sued. Ever heard of MS war on Linux? No OEM can sell Linux computers without a lawsuit, and higher prices from MS. This is some of the first stuff you learn about Microsoft in any respectable business school or basic research.

Yes, because Red Hat and Ubuntu, and the Debian based Linspire were SO gimped, and the machines had decent specs as well for what you paid.

And an OEM can sell any OS they want, your stuck in the year 2000, the claim that Microsoft still does that " force you to only sell windows " crap anymore is a complete lie. Stop spreading lies. Because that's what your doing.

Go to dell's website, configure a machine. You have the option for Linux distros on it. More choice.

Comprehension? I sad by choice, people don't go buy Office for fun especially when there are free alternatives. Consumers only use office because it's format is widely accepted. Again not by choice. It's business standard, and people usually stick to what they know, and most just don't know about the free alternatives.

Again this is basic information.

And ya know what else is basic infomation? Office is the BEST word processor in existence, nothing comes close to touching it. That's how it got so popular in the first place.

I'm specifically arguing Windows RT failure, what does this statement or any of the other stuff has to do with that?

Hate to bust your hate bubble, but Windows RT will not be a failure. In many ways, it blows iOS out of the water. The fact that people lined up to buy the surface, and that they sold out their 32gb pre orders says that people WANT this product.

Every consumer product that MS has, has been a failure.

Yep, thats why they are worth 200+ Billion dollars, and twist the facts all you want. Windows is a CONSUMER product, as well as an enterprise product, so is office, it works in the home, school, and in business.

----------


Not just the Zune,

The zune was under marketed and five years late. No ****.

windows mobile

Hardly, it was huge in enterprise in its day, almost as popular as the crack berry.

VD players with Media Center

Microsoft never made a DVD player, sorry.

Any reasonable person knows exactly what I'm talking about. Consumer products that offer a choice.

Yes, Microsoft sells products, and other companies sell products, people far more often than not choose the microsoft product for home computing, and business choose microsoft because no one else does it better.

----------

I give up Renzatic. When you go look at the numbers, and come back let me know.

What numbers? Just because they do more enterprise business than consumer business means they can't also cater to consumers?

Microsoft is not a consumer company. The Xbox, bing, and every other consumer product they have is less than 5% of Microsoft combined.

Yes they are, they do plenty of consumer products, some of which have done very well.

The XBOX has been a runaway success. People are already eagerly awaiting the next one.

Bing? Not as many use it as google, but its been gaining traction.

Every other consumer product? Like Windows and office? With over a billion users each?

Who cares if its 5% of microsoft? Business 101, you make money wherever and whenever you can, you enter new markets where there is money to be made.

Even if they don't make the same profits that Windows and Office do, its still money in the bank.

Microsoft is a enterprise and business company, this includes Windows and Office btw, you know right? This makes up 95% of Microsoft. Fact.

Fact, they also dominate the CONSUMER Desktop/Laptop OS/software market.

How profitable was the consumer divisions last quarter? How about ever?

Time for you to learn some business, lets take the XBOX division, sure its lost money until recently. But they already said, 10 years to make a profit, best case screnacio, but its gotten to the point where Microsoft is in the living room, a place even Apple has failed to enter, they have a loyal customer base, and tons of online services being offered, even if it took 10 years, now they are making profit, or in a few years they'll make profit, its called a long term investment, and at least in the XBOX's case. its paying off.

every consumer product that isn't Xbox. Do a quick google, go look at financials. Notice I sad consumer products. Windows and Office is in the business and enterprise categories.

So what your saying is that the half billion or so windows users that use windows at home, are actually business? I smelll ********.

And really, its impossible for a consumer to want a microsoft product?

Your right, thats why Microsoft went through all of its 32gb Pre orders. And people were litterally lining up to get their Surface.

So, sold out of pre orders, and people were lining up to get their Surface, how is that any indication of a flop?

The fact is, weather you want to admit it, the Surface is CLEARLY a product people want, so is windows 8, otherwise they wouldn't be lining up to get one, and they would have not sold out of their pre order inventory in a day.

Vetvito
Oct 27, 2012, 12:58 AM
I rest my case, numbers still ring true till this day.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/10/what-is-microsofts-worst-case-scenario.html?m=1

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-19/news/31366454_1_xbox-sales-microsoft-bill-koefoed

Numbers don't lie.

Millions of people buy windows? What other choice do they have at a big box location? Seriously read the question.

As I've stated and Microsofts financials prove, it's a consumer failure. That's a fact.

It's 95% business and enterprise. 5% consumer, that's failing. Fact.

However continue on arguing for fun with your opinions.

"but but the Surface sold out" lol, they sad the same about windows phone when it launched.

Smh at people comparing a Mac mini to PC sells. I mean seriously?

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 01:33 AM
Your chart doesn't prove anything about MS being a failure at consumer products. Their online division is hemorrhaging money, and their entertainment division is only barely profitable, but it doesn't say anything about consumers absolutely hating them.

In fact, their entertainment division is the umbrella the Xbox sits under, the one consumer product you yourself claim as a success. You know how many Xboxes have been sold in the US alone, right? Tons. Shouldn't it be making more money? Shouldn't it be in the billions?

Buh...buh...buh...the numbers.

That's your problem. You see the numbers, but you don't understand them. You don't know why the numbers are what they are. If I go by your logic, I could look at a chart and say that Apple is a cell phone company who makes crappy computers no one likes.

But that isn't right though, is it?

Also, who the hell compared Mac Mini sales to PC sales?

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 01:57 AM
I rest my case, numbers still ring true till this day.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/10/what-is-microsofts-worst-case-scenario.html?m=1

http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-19/news/31366454_1_xbox-sales-microsoft-bill-koefoed

Numbers don't lie.


Did you even read these articles? Can you understand them? You clearly cannot, and you clearly have no idea how business works. Just because a good bit of Microsofts business is Enterprise, does not mean they can['t also be a consumer company.

Now, Apple is a 100% consumer company, they have zero pro offerings, and zero enterprise offerings right? Good, we agree on that.

As I've stated and Microsofts financials prove, it's a consumer failure. That's a fact.

Right, thats why the Mac is a failure compared to the Windows PC, in business and at home.

It's 95% business and enterprise.

Do you have any idea what your talking about? You clearly don't, which is why you ignored my post where I ripped every part of your argument apart, you refuse to face the truth.

"but but the Surface sold out" lol, they sad the same about windows phone when it launched.

The Windows 7 Phones did NOT sell out on launch, so your full of lies right there, and people were lining up to get a Surface. Clearly you drink to much Apple Kool Aid. Yep, those peoples are LINING UP to get one, clearly they all must be large business's.

Smh at people comparing a Mac mini to PC sells. I mean seriously?

Why are Mac Mini sales so poor? Because its a pile of crap with an integrated graphics card from 3 years ago.

Pretty much, nothing personal, but.

1: You know nothing about microsoft
2: you know nothing about the market
3: you know nothing about business
4: you know nothing about the consumer market
5: you know nothing about the enterprise market
6: you don't even understand basic business princeables


So if Microsoft is such a consumer failure despite 70 million xbox 360s sold ( at a profit mind you ), and we can say about half of those Windows/Office users use at home, so about 700 million licenses sold right there to people at home, those billions of dollars in consumer market profit mean Microsoft is a failure.

----------



Millions of people buy windows?

No, billions do.

Millions of people buy windows? What other choice do they have at a big box location? Seriously read the question.

Well, when it comes to big Box Reatilers, places like Wal Mart will have a handful of Laptops and Desktops for sale, but your right in the sense they refuse to sell Macs, because Macs don't sell.

Right now, the biggest Big Box PC seller in the US is best buy, and every best buy has a Mac section staffed by an Apple Employer, and the PCs still outsell the Macs by a ratio of 11 to 1. Clearly, consumers don't like something about Macs. Maybe the fact that with the expection of the iMac, they're overpriced crap? ( As I type this on my 2011 iMac ).

And online, tons of choice. Consumers have a ton of choices....yet they keep picking Windows and Windows OEMs....over and over and over.

frozzbite
Oct 27, 2012, 02:24 AM
when i first got my iPad in 08, the app store was.....almost non existent.

I had to live with the blurry iphone apps for close to a year. Things only really started to pick up once i got my iPad 2. Then the app store really went nuts in my opinion.

We have given apple time before, lets give MS the same year to pick up. Besides, only we the consumers benefit from strong competition to apple:)

----------



Well, when it comes to big Box Reatilers, places like Wal Mart will have a handful of Laptops and Desktops for sale, but your right in the sense they refuse to sell Macs, because Macs don't sell.


I think most people rather buy from the Apple Store direct.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 02:36 AM
Quote:

Well, when it comes to big Box Reatilers, places like Wal Mart will have a handful of Laptops and Desktops for sale, but your right in the sense they refuse to sell Macs, because Macs don't sell.



They don't sell Louis Vuitton bags, Jimmy Choo Shoes either ;)

The idea of Wallmart selling a relatively expensive product is just polar opposite to their whole ethos and their entire customer base / focus...

The few PC's they sell are the bottom end entry models ($300-400 popular range), and not the $1000 and above price bracket that Apple fall into.


Seriously Can you really see these buying a MacBook Pro with a coupon at Wallmart checkout? ;)

http://media.peopleofwalmart.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/364.jpg

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 02:43 AM
They don't sell Louis Vuitton bags, Jimmy Choo Shoes either ;)

The idea of Wallmart selling a relatively expensive product is just polar opposite to their whole ethos. The few PC's they sell are the bottom end entry models, or the $1000 and above that Apple fall into.

Indeed!

Last time I was in a Wal Mart, about a month ago, they had laptops ranging from 250-800 dollars.

Their most expensive PC was a Dell XPS something for 950. No macs at all, but they do sell iPads and iPhones.

They don't do high end at most big box retailers, thats mostly a best buy thing.

Tho I had to Admit, I BOUGHT a Compaq laptop at that Wal Mart for 260 bucks for a Celeron B800, 4gb DDR3 ram, 500gb HDD, Windows 7.

260 bucks?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Wtf? Sure it feels cheap, but it has a 7 hour battery life, and it performs perfectly for a basic user. You'd be hard pressed to tell someone who only does basic stuff to buy a MBA over the 260 dollar Compaq imo.

I bought it for a camping computer, for the sole fact that I won't care if it gets damaged out in the woods ( I tether it to my phone and charge it with my Ridgeline lol ) :cool:

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 08:24 AM
Way too early to call. I've only had mine for 90 minutes or so but already the iPad seems like a toy in comparison. I've been able to add all my activesync accounts, remote in and make some server changes via RDP, fire up Lync and have a couple of business related chats and calls, and edit some word and excel docs and send them back out. The small subset of what I just did that is possible on the iPad is clunky - the type cover is a gamechanger (I haven't even had a chance to try out the touch cover yet). Being able to plug in a usb keyboard/mouse/hard drive/etc is very nice.

As for non-enterprise stuff, Skype looks nice and seems to work very well. IE works fine - didn't do much browsing yet. Netflix works fine. I see angry birds in the store lol.

As an iPad 1 owner ready to upgrade I definitely gave the Surface some consideration. The main things I dislike about the iPad is how hard doing some simple things are on it, and I can see the Surface improving that. Ultimately though, when I thought about how I use the iPad, and what apps I use that are not available on RT, and probably won't be for a while, I'd be giving up too much for too long. I appreciate that you can do all those things on your Surface, but ultimately I can still do them on the iPad, and if I'm really doing some work, I'm just going to grab my laptop anyways. That's the real hurdle MS faces; they are building tablets that are closer to laptops, but it remains to be seen if that's what people want. It may be they actually just want a laptop.

PhoneI
Oct 27, 2012, 09:20 AM
That would work if Microsoft was competing with the iPad from 3 years ago. Unfortunately for them, MS needs to compete with the iPad of today with a very healthy app selection.

PhoneI
Oct 27, 2012, 09:26 AM
Quick question here. Is it because of the size and screen orientation, or the way the apps handle?

First of all, text on the iPad3 looks far better. Also, the surface is uncomfortable to unusable in portrait mode.

I use my iPad3 as my ereader. The surface simply cannot compete with it for that. But it does do other things better. Again, in my opinion, its more lightweight notebook than tablet.

frozzbite
Oct 27, 2012, 09:51 AM
I use my iPad3 as my ereader. The surface simply cannot compete with it for that. But it does do other things better. Again, in my opinion, its more lightweight notebook than tablet.

i agree. The surface or any other windows RT device is hardly an eReader to any extent. But then again, I don't really enjoy reading books on on my iPad. Magazines are fine, but books just don't cut it.

The kindles seem more suited for the job.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 10:07 AM
I can kinda see that. I was playing around with the Metro Kindle app just a little while ago, and it was...weird. Scrolling left to right on a widescreen display to read a book just doesn't feel right. The iPad, with it's square screen and high res display, does a much better job at being an ereader.

And since we're semi on topic here, there is one good thing I'll say about Win8 now that I've made the final upgrade. The new Metro'd up desktop actually looks really good (https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3018396/Win8_Desktop.jpg) when you don't use bright ass neon day-glo colors for the window borders. I like the clean, minimalist look, and I can actually read the damn window titles now that I'm not looking at them as black text overlaid on shiny faux-glass BS.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 11:06 AM
when i first got my iPad in 08, the app store was.....almost non existent.

I had to live with the blurry iphone apps for close to a year. Things only really started to pick up once i got my iPad 2. Then the app store really went nuts in my opinion.

I think you are remembering wrong. First of all, the iPad was first released in 2010, not 08. The app store, however, did open in 08, and it only had iPhone/iPod touch apps then, because the iPad did not exist.

When the iPad was first released in 2010, I remember that a lot of existing iPhone apps were slow to update to offer an iPad version. It took many of them a few months, but a majority of my existing apps had updated well before the iPad 2 was released. Also, there were lots of new apps that were created specifically for the iPad. So personally, I never felt like I was spending a lot of time using stretched-out iPhone apps. But that might be because I simply abandoned iPhone apps that didn't update and moved on to iPad-specific apps.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 11:44 AM
That would work if Microsoft was competing with the iPad from 3 years ago. Unfortunately for them, MS needs to compete with the iPad of today with a very healthy app selection.

The Surface does not compete with the iPad, nor does it really compete with notebooks.

Lots of the Windows 8 and Windows RT convertible computers aren't tablets or laptops, they're creating a whole new category of computing.

The iPad is a great consumer device, but falls flat on its face when it comes to getting work done, I can't get work done on an iPad, its so much of a pain in the ass, Windows RT/Windows 8 is a different story.

I think Apples vison of " Post PC " is just simple little tablets that are good for some simple games, light email and word processing, and consuming content from the App store.

Microsofts vision of this so called " Post PC ( ******** )" era is instead of having just a giant phone with limited intergration, limited OS, and limited software, which is what Apple wants. Microsoft is going down the route of a product that can do it all, aka the Surface.

Its not so much a notebook, but you can use it like one, mine just came today, the type cover is friggen awesome. Not as good as a full sized keyboard, but its easily the best mobile keyboard I've ever seen, I can almost type at full speed on it.

I think if we ever get into a lack of Desktops/Laptops for most consumers, and we are decades away from that really happening, just because heavy lifting, even decent gaming, requires a console, or a decent PC, and massive amounts of storage for the consumers pics, home movies, and all his content, STILL will require a desktop.

But, I think the market will eventually go with Microsofts way of thinking, while I know the iPad is a great product, I think the Windows 8/RT tablets are really gonna start changing things.

frozzbite
Oct 27, 2012, 11:56 AM
I think you are remembering wrong. First of all, the iPad was first released in 2010, not 08.

whoops, you got me there. I meant 2010.

but still, the ipad app variety (made for ipad apps) didn't really develop for close to a year. I really expect the same thing to happen for windows 8 app store. Zero to hero can't possibly happen in a few months, let alone a year.

Vetvito
Oct 27, 2012, 02:18 PM
Did you even read these articles? Can you understand them? You clearly cannot, and you clearly have no idea how business works. Just because a good bit of Microsofts business is Enterprise, does not mean they can['t also be a consumer company.

Now, Apple is a 100% consumer company, they have zero pro offerings, and zero enterprise offerings right? Good, we agree on that.



Right, thats why the Mac is a failure compared to the Windows PC, in business and at home.



Do you have any idea what your talking about? You clearly don't, which is why you ignored my post where I ripped every part of your argument apart, you refuse to face the truth.



The Windows 7 Phones did NOT sell out on launch, so your full of lies right there, and people were lining up to get a Surface. Clearly you drink to much Apple Kool Aid. Yep, those peoples are LINING UP to get one, clearly they all must be large business's.



Why are Mac Mini sales so poor? Because its a pile of crap with an integrated graphics card from 3 years ago.

Pretty much, nothing personal, but.

1: You know nothing about microsoft
2: you know nothing about the market
3: you know nothing about business
4: you know nothing about the consumer market
5: you know nothing about the enterprise market
6: you don't even understand basic business princeables


So if Microsoft is such a consumer failure despite 70 million xbox 360s sold ( at a profit mind you ), and we can say about half of those Windows/Office users use at home, so about 700 million licenses sold right there to people at home, those billions of dollars in consumer market profit mean Microsoft is a failure.

----------



No, billions do.



Well, when it comes to big Box Reatilers, places like Wal Mart will have a handful of Laptops and Desktops for sale, but your right in the sense they refuse to sell Macs, because Macs don't sell.

Right now, the biggest Big Box PC seller in the US is best buy, and every best buy has a Mac section staffed by an Apple Employer, and the PCs still outsell the Macs by a ratio of 11 to 1. Clearly, consumers don't like something about Macs. Maybe the fact that with the expection of the iMac, they're overpriced crap? ( As I type this on my 2011 iMac ).

And online, tons of choice. Consumers have a ton of choices....yet they keep picking Windows and Windows OEMs....over and over and over.

Hey I make a living off these articles and tech moves. Wanna see my bank statements or brokerage account?

I know nothing, that's funny. When you clearly can't name a single consumer successs Microsoft has had besides the Xbox.

When it comes to PCs you don't have a choice of a new Dell Linux, new Samsung Linux, new whoever with whatever OS besides windows. When you go to the store you have Windows, Windows, Windows, and maybe a Mac. That's not exactly a choice, can we agree on that?

PhoneI
Oct 27, 2012, 02:21 PM
The Surface does not compete with the iPad, nor does it really compete with notebooks.

Oh really????? The only reason Windows 8 UI exists us because of Windows 8. Every review you read compares it to the iPad.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 04:22 PM
when i first got my iPad in 08, the app store was.....almost non existent.

I had to live with the blurry iphone apps for close to a year. Things only really started to pick up once i got my iPad 2. Then the app store really went nuts in my opinion.

We have given apple time before, lets give MS the same year to pick up. Besides, only we the consumers benefit from strong competition to apple:)

----------



I think most people rather buy from the Apple Store direct.


Maybe but i dont see why. The prices are the same and you can take it home right then and there from a store like BB. Speaking of Best Buy, i went there today. They had the Apple section with the new 13.3" retina display laptops. I mentioned those before in here sometime back that they were $1599 with those displays and i got replies that they didnt make a retina display 13.3" ....but i had read they were going to to and saw the prices. Obviously the others didnt know it.

Well, today they were priced at $1699. $500 more to have a retina display. Thats why most people dont buy Apple products. They are just priced way too high. No way id pay that just to have the retina display. Ill stick to the one i do have.

As for Windows 8, they had them there on all their computers. I think Windows 8 is going to sell like hotcakes. Many people were checking them out and even an old couple were looking to get one and the Lady said she liked change so she wasnt fazed. Another old guy was rambling on how he had been using Windows 8 for 1.5 yeers already testing out the Beta's. He knew alot about them and was helpful. Point being, even the older people that i saw werent scared by it and in fact the guy i was talking to said it was easy once you start using it for a short time.
You have the choice to use it with the live tiles OR you can switch it back to desktop mode like they have always been. That there will make many who need time to adjust or dont like it to use it the way they know how while strill having the newest tiles system.

I know i was impressed even though it will take me time to adjust when i get one.

----------

Indeed!

Last time I was in a Wal Mart, about a month ago, they had laptops ranging from 250-800 dollars.

Their most expensive PC was a Dell XPS something for 950. No macs at all, but they do sell iPads and iPhones.

They don't do high end at most big box retailers, thats mostly a best buy thing.

Tho I had to Admit, I BOUGHT a Compaq laptop at that Wal Mart for 260 bucks for a Celeron B800, 4gb DDR3 ram, 500gb HDD, Windows 7.

260 bucks?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Wtf? Sure it feels cheap, but it has a 7 hour battery life, and it performs perfectly for a basic user. You'd be hard pressed to tell someone who only does basic stuff to buy a MBA over the 260 dollar Compaq imo.

I bought it for a camping computer, for the sole fact that I won't care if it gets damaged out in the woods ( I tether it to my phone and charge it with my Ridgeline lol ) :cool:

Fry's has them as well. Those are the two stores i go to here where i live.

cnev3
Oct 27, 2012, 06:18 PM
Zune was always an mp3 player .

That's a poor excuse for it's failure. If the Zune was only meant to be an MP3 player, they wouldnt have put in a cutting edge Nvidia Tegra chip in it, with an HD amoled screen. It was developed to be a direct competitor of the iPod Touch.

----------

I think the basic apps are enough for a majority of people.

I disagree. If the Surface is to compete with the crowded tablet market, "basic apps" isn't enough.

I think in a few months time the app store will grow exponentially.

That's what everyone thought when they bought their Zune HD, and anxiously awaited apps to take advantage of it's high end graphics. Unfortunately, they never came. Not even with all the capital Microsoft had to make it happen.

I bet the Xbox will flop because of the lack of exclusive games. :rolleyes:

The Xbox 360 is more reassurance how vital software is. The Xbox has done well because of it's great exclusives, and Xbox Live, despite the long history of it's hardware failure and RROD's. The fact that it's been $100 cheaper than the PS3 didn't hurt either. But the Xbox 360 didn't need a sleeker design or more powerful processing power than the PS3 to secure their place in the home console market. It had what mattered the most, great games.

Rodster
Oct 27, 2012, 06:23 PM
That's a poor excuse for it's failure. If the Zune was only meant to be an MP3 player, they wouldnt have put in a cutting edge Nvidia Tegra chip in it, with an HD amoled screen. It was developed to be a direct competitor of the iPod Touch.

I gotta agree and I own a Zune HD, love the sound and HD Radio. It was designed to be more than just an MP3 player.

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 07:10 PM
Well, today they were priced at $1699. $500 more to have a retina display. Thats why most people dont buy Apple products. They are just priced way too high. No way id pay that just to have the retina display. Ill stick to the one i do have.

It's not just for the Retina display. For that $500 you also get double the RAM and a SSD. No, they aren't cheap, but they are about the best laptops you can buy today.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 07:18 PM
It's not just for the Retina display. For that $500 you also get double the RAM and a SSD. No, they aren't cheap, but they are about the best laptops you can buy today.

Oh yeah, your right. You get 256 MB's of RAM instead of 128 ...lol, some with PC's with the same equivelent price have 4GB.

Not arguing there arent good devices. Are they the best? I dont know if i would say that but they are good. Just overpriced like everything else Apple. They use intel chips like most everyone else.

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 07:34 PM
They use intel chips like most everyone else.

And of course the CPU is the sum total of the machine. :rolleyes:

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 07:45 PM
Oh yeah, your right. You get 256 MB's of RAM instead of 128 ...lol, some with PC's with the same equivelent price have 4GB.

I think you have this confused with the RAM on devices like the iPad mini and iPod touch.

According to Apple (http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-retina/), the 13 inch Retina MacBook Pro has "8GB of 1600MHz DDR3L onboard memory."

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 07:50 PM
And of course the CPU is the sum total of the machine. :rolleyes:

Just saying it doesnt have anything else special inside that the others have except for a Apple OS.
We all know Apples more money than everyone else and always have been which is why they dont sell near as many computers. We also know Apple charges way more to buy memory than anyone else and for their accessaries.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 08:02 PM
I think you have this confused with the RAM on devices like the iPad mini and iPod touch.

According to Apple (http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs-retina/), the 13 inch Retina MacBook Pro has "8GB of 1600MHz DDR3L onboard memory."

Nope, i do have it wrong though.

For $1699 you get the 13.3" MacPro with: Best Buy link (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Laptop-Computers/MacBooks/pcmcat247400050001.c?id=pcmcat247400050001)

8GB memory w/ a retina display and 128 GB flash storage

for $1999 you get the same but with 256 GB of flash storage.

The $1199 model has no retina but has a 500 GB harddrive with 4GB of memory.

so for $500 more you get far less space using a flash memory(128GB) as opposed to a harddrive(500GB) but you get 4GB more memory and a retina display.
Or for $1999, you can get 256GB of flash memory.

I guess it all depends on how much you like that screen compared to your space(372 GB less) and the extra 4GB of memory for that $500.

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 08:08 PM
Just saying it doesnt have anything else special inside that the others have except for a Apple OS.
We all know Apples more money than everyone else and always have been which is why they dont sell near as many computers. We also know Apple charges way more to buy memory than anyone else and for their accessaries.

A MacBook most certainly has a whole lot that is special other than the OS. Nobody else builds a laptop in which every detail has been sweated the way a MacBook has. That's what makes them premium. I'm the buyer for our company's IT assets, and we mostly buy very expensive Thinkpads, which are generally considered second to Apple in the PC market, yet they don't even come close.

Apple now sells more laptops than anyone else, in case you haven't noticed.

Their memory prices aren't out of line with other OEM's either.

----------



I guess it all depends on how much you like that screen compared to your space(372 GB less) and the extra 4GB of memory for that $500.

SSD's are a performance upgrade; (way more important than the CPU for the vast majority of users). hopefully buyers understand that going in to their purchase.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 08:21 PM
A MacBook most certainly has a whole lot that is special other than the OS. Nobody else builds a laptop in which every detail has been sweated the way a MacBook has. That's what makes them premium. I'm the buyer for our company's IT assets, and we mostly buy very expensive Thinkpads, which are generally considered second to Apple in the PC market, yet they don't even come close.

Apple now sells more laptops than anyone else, in case you haven't noticed.

Their memory prices aren't out of line with other OEM's either.

I have a MacPro and it is nice. I like it but it is overpriced and i can get a PC laptop just as nice for less. And no they dont sell the most laptops.

The new Levono Yoga Ultrapad (https://deals.bestbuy.com/computers+amp+tablets/product/6634279/lenovo++yoga+ideapad+ultrabook+133quot+touchscreen+laptop++4gb+memory++silver)with Windows 8 is amazing.
Touchscreen, folds over to use as a tablet with the touchscreen or flip it back over the use the keyboard and use as a laptop...IPS LED HD display. It is thin and light but not MacAir thin and light. That is $999 with a 13.3" display.
But it only has a 128GB solidstate drive(ill assume flash memory)

Still cheaper than the basic $1199 for the 13.3" MacPro. The Retina display MacPro with these specs plus 4GB more memory is $1699.

As for Apple selling the most laptops....til i see it, i dont believe it and ive never seen it mentioned ANYWHERE.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 08:32 PM
The new Levono Yoga Ultrapad (https://deals.bestbuy.com/computers+amp+tablets/product/6634279/lenovo++yoga+ideapad+ultrabook+133quot+touchscreen+laptop++4gb+memory++silver)with Windows 8 is amazing.
Touchscreen, folds over to use as a tablet with the touchscreen or flip it back over the use the keyboard and use as a laptop...IPS LED HD display. It is thin and light but not MacAir thin and light. That is $999 with a 13.3" display.

The $999 model has an Intel Core i3 chip. The model with the i5 chip is $1199, same as the starting price of the non-retina MacBook Pro.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=1A4B81C8AC677A5FB11849005C1752B5
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 08:43 PM
The $999 model has an Intel Core i3 chip. The model with the i5 chip is $1199, same as the starting price of the non-retina MacBook Pro.
http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=1A4B81C8AC677A5FB11849005C1752B5
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/

Click on the Best Buy link above in my last post(Levono Yoga Ultrapad). That Levono has a i5 chip in it for $999. And in anycase...the Levono has the specs of the retina display for $1699 asside from 4GB less memory and i can get 4 GB of memory for a lot less than $500. The Levono is expandible to 8GB.

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 08:49 PM
Yeah I guess my memory of the MacBook sales must have been in a particular segment or something.

Anyhow, I take issue with the idea that you can get a pc just as nice for less, because you can't. Yes, you can get one with the same specs, but it's nowhere near the whole package. Lenovo's screens are crap; their power adapters are still the same bulky junk bricks that everyone has been using for 20 years. The chassis is nice inside, but the plastic is thin and creaky outside. The trackpads are ok, but nothing close to the MacBooks.

It's fine that many people don't care about these details, but the competition is not 'just as good' when you take in the whole thing; not even close.

SpyderBite
Oct 27, 2012, 08:56 PM
All the Surface needs is MS Office and people who are Windows friendly will fall over each other for one. Without the Office suite, it will probably last as long as the Microsoft Cordless Answering System and Microsoft Gaming Joystick.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 09:07 PM
Yeah I guess my memory of the MacBook sales must have been in a particular segment or something.

Anyhow, I take issue with the idea that you can get a pc just as nice for less, because you can't. Yes, you can get one with the same specs, but it's nowhere near the whole package. Lenovo's screens are crap; their power adapters are still the same bulky junk bricks that everyone has been using for 20 years. The chassis is nice inside, but the plastic is thin and creaky outside. The trackpads are ok, but nothing close to the MacBooks.

It's fine that many people don't care about these details, but the competition is not 'just as good' when you take in the whole thing; not even close.

You better look again because they are not. The chargers are smaller (Not that i care how big a charger is). and they use the same 128 GB SSD performance you said was a good thing in the MacPro. The screen is amazing too. The IPS LED HD screens are better than the Retina displays in the iPhones.

Seems you need to do some research since your out of touch and your buying your company's IT assets....lol :p Im kidding...i know these are brand new computers and showed up only yesterday in stores but im telling you that new Levono is sick....and it is LESS than the basic 13.3" MacPro.

Ill borrow this LINK (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=1A4B81C8AC677A5FB11849005C1752B5&AID=10499647&PID=4169666&SID=ku36w9j6tu5i&CJURL=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.lenovo.com%2FSEUILibrary%2Fcontroller%2Fe%2Fweb%2FLenovoPortal%2Fen_US%2Fcat alog.workflow%3Acategory.details%3Fcurrent-catalog-id%3D12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087%26current-category-id%3D1A4B81C8AC677A5FB11849005C1752B5#.UIyStqDleSp) from the guy above for you to see the specs. The one in the middle is the one at Best Buy for $999

----------

All the Surface needs is MS Office and people who are Windows friendly will fall over each other for one. Without the Office suite, it will probably last as long as the Microsoft Cordless Answering System and Microsoft Gaming Joystick.

It has Office

Rodster
Oct 27, 2012, 09:13 PM
It has Office

Is that just for the Surface Pro?

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 09:17 PM
The RT comes standard with what's basically Office Home and Student.

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 09:23 PM
You better look again because they are not. The chargers are smaller (Not that i care how big a charger is). and they use the same 128 GB SSD performance you said was a good thing in the MacPro. The screen is amazing too. The IPS LED HD screens are better than the Retina displays in the iPhones.

Seems you need to do some research since your out of touch and your buying your company's IT assets....lol :p Im kidding...i know these are brand new computers and showed up only yesterday in stores but im telling you that new Levono is sick....and it is LESS than the basic 13.3" MacPro.


Yeah, those aren't exactly business class machines. Hopefully they will finally listen to us Thinkpad enthusiasts and bring back the ips screens they discontinued during their race to the bottom. Slimming down the power brick doesn't do much for me if they retain the same basic poor design that has no thought put into it.

I'll reserve my final judgement until I see one in person, but I'm not holding my breath.

michaeljohn
Oct 27, 2012, 09:59 PM
I dont get the Surface at all. Why would someone pay $600 for a 10 inch tablet and cheap keyboard when you can buy a bigger, more powerful laptop for half the price? Its only worked with the iPad because the cheapest Mac powered laptop you can get is $1k, so $500 for an ipad seems like a great deal. Dont think the Surface will do too well. The Ultrabook convertible looks much more appealing.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 10:04 PM
I dont get the Surface at all. Why would someone pay $600 for a 10 inch tablet and cheap keyboard when you can buy a bigger, more powerful laptop for half the price?

Portability? Also, at $120, that keyboard ain't cheap.

zhenya
Oct 27, 2012, 10:06 PM
I dont get the Surface at all. Why would someone pay $600 for a 10 inch tablet and cheap keyboard when you can buy a bigger, more powerful laptop for half the price? Its only worked with the iPad because the cheapest Mac powered laptop you can get is $1k, so $500 for an ipad seems like a great deal. Dont think the Surface will do too well. The Ultrabook convertible looks much more appealing.

That was exactly the argument against the iPad in the first place. The Surface is looking to fill the same niche as the iPad while being ever so slightly more like a traditional laptop.

Tons of pc users who could have bought a $500 laptop also bought an iPad...

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 10:07 PM
I dont get the Surface at all. Why would someone pay $600 for a 10 inch tablet and cheap keyboard when you can buy a bigger, more powerful laptop for half the price? Its only worked with the iPad because the cheapest Mac powered laptop you can get is $1k, so $500 for an ipad seems like a great deal. Dont think the Surface will do too well. The Ultrabook convertible looks much more appealing.

Agree but the Surface IS more like a laptop. It isnt limited like a Tablet but the Surface Pro will be a better device than the RT. As far as a tablet is concerned, ...i dont have one but i am interested in a Nexus 7 and even the new iPad mini but think id rather have the Nexus 7. One big advantage for me is i dont have to use iTunes with the Nexus 7. Im not fond of iTunes at all.

So many devices to choose from.

cnev3
Oct 27, 2012, 10:57 PM
Thats why most people dont buy Apple products. They are just priced way too high.

I don't want to derail this thread with an Apple debate, but I have to say, the new macbook airs are actually competitively priced. Last time I checked, there was no ultrabook that had better hardware for a lower price than the air.

----------

I can't help but think the Surface will be a victim of a Catch 22. It needs a big selection of great software to succeed. But it won't get a big selection of great software until it does succeed.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 11:02 PM
I can't help but think the Surface will be a victim of a Catch 22. It needs a big selection of great software to succeed. But it won't get a big selection of great software until it does succeed.

Angry Birds Space showed up in the marketplace yesterday. IT'S ON! :mad:

throAU
Oct 27, 2012, 11:09 PM
I love how microsoft have put out a laptop that can't actually be used on your lap, with that crappy kickstand and foldy keyboard thing.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 11:21 PM
I know! Micro$uck can never do anything right! Lets find more things to scoff at and roll our eyes about!

Mackan
Oct 27, 2012, 11:35 PM
Software/Content is vital. You can have a tablet thats the thinnest, fastest, has the most storage space, most incredibly display, but if it doesn't have an equally good selection of quality software, it's doomed.

The Zune HD was a sleek device with a handful of great features the iPod Touch didn't have, but it flopped due to a lack of apps. I thought Microsoft would have learned their lesson, but they seem to be taking the same "Build it, and they will come", approach.

My main concern is that developers arent attracted to release their software on a platform that's not popular. At least compared to the millions of Android and iOS users who buy their apps.

Maybe i'm wrong, and the device will succeed. Hopefully I am. Competition is good, and we need a fresh device to keep everyone else on their toes.

But I just don't see the sense in buying a tablet that severely lacks software. I'll bump this thread in 1 year to see how right/wrong I was.

Apps and ecosystem is important. But what about the software fundamentals here...

How many here like Microsofts tile based 'modern UI', where squares and single color themes are what meet your eyes? I personally don't feel attracted by it. So it stops for me already there. Not due to a lack of apps.

I think Microsoft is on the wrong path. They will steadily decline from now on.

thejadedmonkey
Oct 27, 2012, 11:42 PM
I bet you're the same person who said the iPad would flop due to a lack of app support.

cnev3
Oct 28, 2012, 12:29 AM
I bet you're the same person who said the iPad would flop due to a lack of app support.

That would be a very odd prediction considering there was already a large app store present before the iPad was released.

The Zune HD's selection topped out at a whopping 41 games.

Here is a post I made on ifans.com in 2009, 4 days after the Zune HD was released:

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd475/cptncheesecake/ScreenShot2012-10-27at103642PM.png

Let's see if I can go 2 for 2 on my predictions.

Renzatic
Oct 28, 2012, 12:49 AM
There are 987 games currently in the Marketplace. Though it could stand to use a little more popular support, the Surface has already surpassed the Zune by and far.

Eidorian
Oct 28, 2012, 12:56 AM
I was surprised to see news about people standing in line for the Surface. I should have checked out the pop-up store in town. Maybe next week.

skaertus
Oct 28, 2012, 01:35 AM
I've seen the Surface today. I was quite skeptical about the Surface and all this tablet/convertible ultrabook thing. I have to say that I changed my mind after actually using the Surface. I am impressed. Microsoft did a great job here. I have no idea if the Surface will succeed or not, and reviews are not so great, as Microsoft is no media darling as Apple. But the tablet, despite having its flaws, is a joy to use, and feels much more a complete computer experience than the iPad. The Surface Pro is definitely going to be a killer device in my opinion.

mentaluproar
Oct 28, 2012, 01:58 AM
Business's have a choice between Windows, OSX, and Linux, they choose windows, because its the best at what its meant to do. If OSX was so good, why doesn't enterprise rely on Apple?


WRONG! Business chooses windows because there is an abundance of Microsoft-certified IT guys out there. A business will pick the most abundant, and therefore cheapest support resource.

As much as I want the surface to succeed (especially RT) I feel that it's a pseudo-laptop. It is not a tablet.

Wait for the honeymoon period to end.

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 02:59 AM
WRONG! Business chooses windows because there is an abundance of Microsoft-certified IT guys out there. A business will pick the most abundant, and therefore cheapest support resource.

As much as I want the surface to succeed (especially RT) I feel that it's a pseudo-laptop. It is not a tablet.

Wait for the honeymoon period to end.

So why isn't there an abundance of Apple-certified IT guys?

mentaluproar
Oct 28, 2012, 03:10 AM
Apple doesn't care much to push for it in colleges. Not many students care either because there wouldn't be confidence that certification could be used after graduation.

Look at industrial processes. Unix was primarily used to run the machines, but companies switched to windows because support was cheaper, as it wasn't quite as specialized. Unix was a more appropriate system in that scenario, but money decided what they went with. Ironically, industrial systems are having many problems they didn't have before, primarily security, not because windows CAN'T be locked down, but because many of the cheap IT guys these companies hire are glorified script kiddies.

That being said, there are plenty of business applications where OSX would be wasted, like cash registers. IBM won that battle, but with the iPad, we are seeing more competition because there is less to maintain overall, so operating costs go down.

Renzatic
Oct 28, 2012, 03:19 AM
Probably becuase all Apple IT guys only work as geniuses at Apple Stores. They don't wanna work in some bland cubicle for some faceless corporation. Someone might think they're being conformists or something.

k995
Oct 28, 2012, 08:34 AM
That's a poor excuse for it's failure. If the Zune was only meant to be an MP3 player, they wouldnt have put in a cutting edge Nvidia Tegra chip in it, with an HD amoled screen. It was developed to be a direct competitor of the iPod Touch.

Bs it was never meant for that, surface is .



I disagree. If the Surface is to compete with the crowded tablet market, "basic apps" isn't enough.




300 million users by next year, apps wil follow .

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 08:35 AM
Apple doesn't care much to push for it in colleges. Not many students care either because there wouldn't be confidence that certification could be used after graduation.

Look at industrial processes. Unix was primarily used to run the machines, but companies switched to windows because support was cheaper, as it wasn't quite as specialized. Unix was a more appropriate system in that scenario, but money decided what they went with. Ironically, industrial systems are having many problems they didn't have before, primarily security, not because windows CAN'T be locked down, but because many of the cheap IT guys these companies hire are glorified script kiddies.

That being said, there are plenty of business applications where OSX would be wasted, like cash registers. IBM won that battle, but with the iPad, we are seeing more competition because there is less to maintain overall, so operating costs go down.

Is it a chicken and egg situation? Was there a lot of MS IT guys when Windows was new? Or did the proliferation of Windows cause a lot of people to get there Microsoft credentials? Seems like it most probably the latter.

VulchR
Oct 28, 2012, 08:40 AM
I like Apple products and was considering getting an iPad. However, the Surface seems interesting to me. I'm going to wait to see how well it gets on before spending any money, but in general there are advantages to having a MS product - access to MS Office being one of them.

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 08:46 AM
Gettin in kind of late on this discussion, but I'm a HUGE windows mobile fan from back in the day. I'd be that guy walking around with a Palm V with a modem hacking it to make phone calls, then very soon after a PocketPC with a sprint CF 1xrt card also hacking that to make phone calls. I wanted a smartphone before anyone even envisioned a smartphone, especially one with windows on it.

I don't think you can necessarily gauge the entire Windows future just on their one piece of hardware. I believe Windows 8 Pro Atom tablets are going to be a huge hit, there are a LOT more people out there who settled for iOS as not being a real OS, but at least they had a portable computer which gave them some light PC functions, terrible input, and good media consumption, these people are waiting for the day they can truly replace their laptops. That's how I've felt these past couple of years with my ipad, and it truly feels as if I'm coming out of a dream in actually having Windows (or any real OS, it could have been OSx) on an ipad like device.

With that said I see some major roadblocks for MS. Windows RT is a huge liability, it will confuse consumers and at times anger them when they buy it but realize when they get home that it isn't full windows. They really should have named it Windows 8 mobile to not confuse consumers, and it should have been priced about $100 lower. I understand the reason RT exists, it's the direct competition for a consumption device, and it also helps to stimulate app creation which will spillover into the Windows phone. I just think they botched their strategy with it.

I think MS has a HUGE in with the atom processor powered Windows 8 Pro, and they ARE positioned correctly. They are about the same price as an ipad, ie: 64gb versus 64gb, but if MS really puts some money into marketing people will begin to realize it's a real OS for the same amount of money. I think the ivy bridge CPUs will have some success in the enthusiast and business crowd, but it's not ready yet in terms of battery life, cooling, etc. The Atom ones are where they will take off, especially next year when we get a quad core Atom cpu.

zhenya
Oct 28, 2012, 10:21 AM
Good post Spinedoc.

I think it really remains to be seen how well Windows tablets are accepted. Does the market at large really want business tablets or are they content with laptops? I really thought about the Surface instead of a new iPad, but the lack of apps and the looming question of how long before that store develops kept me away. Atom tablets are promising; the Thinkpad Tablet 2 has impressive specs for the price, but again there are questions. What is it really like to use? Will the Atom processors be up to the task of running full Windows, or will consumers used to i5 processors and 8 gigs of ram be frustrated? Will all the software people are used to using on Windows transfer to tablets or will everything have to be redesigned to work in both desktop and modern interfaces? Will users put up with that duality?

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 10:48 AM
Good post Spinedoc.

I think it really remains to be seen how well Windows tablets are accepted. Does the market at large really want business tablets or are they content with laptops? I really thought about the Surface instead of a new iPad, but the lack of apps and the looming question of how long before that store develops kept me away. Atom tablets are promising; the Thinkpad Tablet 2 has impressive specs for the price, but again there are questions. What is it really like to use? Will the Atom processors be up to the task of running full Windows, or will consumers used to i5 processors and 8 gigs of ram be frustrated? Will all the software people are used to using on Windows transfer to tablets or will everything have to be redesigned to work in both desktop and modern interfaces? Will users put up with that duality?

All good questions which also remain unanswered for myself. I already know I'm not going to touch RT, it just doesn't make sense to me when I already have an ipad to move laterally in terms of OS capability. It does have office though, which will probably sway many.

Originally my plan was to get an ivy bridge tablet, but the more I thought about it and recalled the old laptop days when it would last me 3-4 hours and I'd have to carry a power brick it made me realize how used to truly all day battery life the ipad has made me. I think this is why we haven't seen a huge revolution with the current sandy bridge tablets out there by samsung and HP to name a couple. The appeal of all day battery life, thin package, no fans blowing, etc are enough where people will tolerate having to have another device to get real work done, aka a laptop. But the Atom CPU is where I am resting my hope on, a true full Windows 8 with all day battery life, no fan, and thin form factor. That's the HUGE question mark in my head, how will the current cloverfield Atom CPU perform? IMO MS future rests on how the Atom CPU performs, RT will be niche, and ivy bridge tablets will be niche.

My plan has changed. I plan on buying an Atom CPU Windows 8 Pro tablet right now as I'm incredibly impatient. Come January I'll see how the Ivy bridge WinPro surface performs and maybe buy that or another ivy bridge and give the Atom to my wife, or if Atom performs well I'll just keep it and save some money. Either way I don't see myself losing, even if the Atom CPU is only good for ipad like performance I still see it as a huge huge improvement for my own personal needs over the ipad and iOS.

Technarchy
Oct 28, 2012, 11:08 AM
Good post Spinedoc.

I think it really remains to be seen how well Windows tablets are accepted. Does the market at large really want business tablets or are they content with laptops?



Do people want a bloated Windows OS for a tablet is a better question. How long till those OS Windows/MSFT-isms start appearing?

RT could be much lighter in my opinion. By lighter I mean as lean as Windows Phone, and less like Windows desktop.

zhenya
Oct 28, 2012, 07:49 PM
Had to run an errand at Staples today so I got a short amount of time with a few of the tablets they had there. Unfortunately the only real Windows 8 tablet was a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T (yes, that's really its name - although it took some doing to figure out what it was). This is an 11.6" tablet with an Atom processor, 64gig ssd and 2gb ram, offered at $599 there without the companion keyboard (I did not even know a keyboard was an option till looking it up when I got home).

First, this is one big tablet. Build quality is average, not bad, nothing special. This is really a landscape only device, not only are the proportions ridiculous in portrait, but the font scaling, at least in Internet Explorer was so bad as to be nearly unusable at smaller font sizes. This really reinforces my dislike of 16:9 displays on anything but a television.

My few minutes of using it went ok at first, things were smooth and quick, and you have to give Microsoft credit for doing things differently than everyone else; it really is the only other tablet OS that feels professional.

Unfortunately after a few minutes of browsing the web, the device locked up entirely and would not respond to any input - even pressing the physical Home button did nothing. I had to hard shut down the tablet, which proceeded to take at least 3-4 minutes, at which time I was given an error message, at which point it needed to restart again, and then proceeded to install updates. After a few more minutes of waiting, I finally walked away.

I administer a small Windows network part time at my job, so I understand this stuff; what this experience really made clear to me is how much I value the way that iOS devices are ALWAYS ready to go. That's what makes them so valuable as a device to have floating around the house or in your bag to quickly pick up and use. I ultimately gave up on Windows as my media center PC for the same reasons - I'd just want to watch a movie and too many times it was pestering me to do something.

Lastly, I can also really see now that Microsoft is going to have to do something to address the confusion that is bound to happen here. The only way that I knew this thing was running a regular version of Windows is because I saw the specs and knew that RT doesn't run on Atom processors. To poke around as a relative novice to Windows 8, how the heck are you supposed to tell? The OEM's aren't doing them any favors either; this device was marked entirely as a 'Samsung Ativ'. That's it. Go online and it turns out Samsung makes all kinds of devices under the Ativ name. Talk about confusion.

I really want this to work out for Microsoft; unfortunately this was not the greatest first experience.

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 09:14 PM
Had to run an errand at Staples today so I got a short amount of time with a few of the tablets they had there. Unfortunately the only real Windows 8 tablet was a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T (yes, that's really its name - although it took some doing to figure out what it was). This is an 11.6" tablet with an Atom processor, 64gig ssd and 2gb ram, offered at $599 there without the companion keyboard (I did not even know a keyboard was an option till looking it up when I got home).

First, this is one big tablet. Build quality is average, not bad, nothing special. This is really a landscape only device, not only are the proportions ridiculous in portrait, but the font scaling, at least in Internet Explorer was so bad as to be nearly unusable at smaller font sizes. This really reinforces my dislike of 16:9 displays on anything but a television.

My few minutes of using it went ok at first, things were smooth and quick, and you have to give Microsoft credit for doing things differently than everyone else; it really is the only other tablet OS that feels professional.

Unfortunately after a few minutes of browsing the web, the device locked up entirely and would not respond to any input - even pressing the physical Home button did nothing. I had to hard shut down the tablet, which proceeded to take at least 3-4 minutes, at which time I was given an error message, at which point it needed to restart again, and then proceeded to install updates. After a few more minutes of waiting, I finally walked away.

I administer a small Windows network part time at my job, so I understand this stuff; what this experience really made clear to me is how much I value the way that iOS devices are ALWAYS ready to go. That's what makes them so valuable as a device to have floating around the house or in your bag to quickly pick up and use. I ultimately gave up on Windows as my media center PC for the same reasons - I'd just want to watch a movie and too many times it was pestering me to do something.

Lastly, I can also really see now that Microsoft is going to have to do something to address the confusion that is bound to happen here. The only way that I knew this thing was running a regular version of Windows is because I saw the specs and knew that RT doesn't run on Atom processors. To poke around as a relative novice to Windows 8, how the heck are you supposed to tell? The OEM's aren't doing them any favors either; this device was marked entirely as a 'Samsung Ativ'. That's it. Go online and it turns out Samsung makes all kinds of devices under the Ativ name. Talk about confusion.

I really want this to work out for Microsoft; unfortunately this was not the greatest first experience.

Meh, my ipad has locked up on me, or at times becomes so sluggish that I have to reboot it. I can't say it's often, just occasionally, but it happens.

I have the Samsung series 5, scored it at Staples today and have been playing with it all day. It's very decent, but it does have Windows shine thru at times, as much as I'm a HUGE microsoft cheerleader/fanboy it's a shame that I have to agree the OS on a tablet still needs some bugs and weird design decisions ironed out. With that said I'm still selling my ipad, although I'm not sure yet if I'm keeping the Series 5 or moving up to an ivy bridge unit later on.

Vetvito
Oct 28, 2012, 09:16 PM
Had to run an errand at Staples today so I got a short amount of time with a few of the tablets they had there. Unfortunately the only real Windows 8 tablet was a Samsung Ativ Smart PC 500T (yes, that's really its name - although it took some doing to figure out what it was). This is an 11.6" tablet with an Atom processor, 64gig ssd and 2gb ram, offered at $599 there without the companion keyboard (I did not even know a keyboard was an option till looking it up when I got home).

First, this is one big tablet. Build quality is average, not bad, nothing special. This is really a landscape only device, not only are the proportions ridiculous in portrait, but the font scaling, at least in Internet Explorer was so bad as to be nearly unusable at smaller font sizes. This really reinforces my dislike of 16:9 displays on anything but a television.

My few minutes of using it went ok at first, things were smooth and quick, and you have to give Microsoft credit for doing things differently than everyone else; it really is the only other tablet OS that feels professional.

Unfortunately after a few minutes of browsing the web, the device locked up entirely and would not respond to any input - even pressing the physical Home button did nothing. I had to hard shut down the tablet, which proceeded to take at least 3-4 minutes, at which time I was given an error message, at which point it needed to restart again, and then proceeded to install updates. After a few more minutes of waiting, I finally walked away.

I administer a small Windows network part time at my job, so I understand this stuff; what this experience really made clear to me is how much I value the way that iOS devices are ALWAYS ready to go. That's what makes them so valuable as a device to have floating around the house or in your bag to quickly pick up and use. I ultimately gave up on Windows as my media center PC for the same reasons - I'd just want to watch a movie and too many times it was pestering me to do something.

Lastly, I can also really see now that Microsoft is going to have to do something to address the confusion that is bound to happen here. The only way that I knew this thing was running a regular version of Windows is because I saw the specs and knew that RT doesn't run on Atom processors. To poke around as a relative novice to Windows 8, how the heck are you supposed to tell? The OEM's aren't doing them any favors either; this device was marked entirely as a 'Samsung Ativ'. That's it. Go online and it turns out Samsung makes all kinds of devices under the Ativ name. Talk about confusion.

I really want this to work out for Microsoft; unfortunately this was not the greatest first experience.


Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

zhenya
Oct 28, 2012, 09:30 PM
Meh, my ipad has locked up on me, or at times becomes so sluggish that I have to reboot it. I can't say it's often, just occasionally, but it happens.


The reboot itself wasn't so much the problem (although having to do that on iOS is very unusual); it was the 10 minutes I spent standing around waiting for it to restart. That's not something I want to deal with on a home tablet now that I'm used to one that never does that.

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Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

Here you go. http://www.staples.com/Samsung-Series-5-Slate-Tablet-PC/product_990648 (You can go ahead and add 'Series 5' to the device name I gave above...)

sleek881
Oct 28, 2012, 09:49 PM
I don't like how the core apps like the browser, mail etc are very plain and minimalist with very few options and zero customization.

Vetvito
Oct 28, 2012, 10:00 PM
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[/COLOR]

Here you go. http://www.staples.com/Samsung-Series-5-Slate-Tablet-PC/product_990648 (You can go ahead and add 'Series 5' to the device name I gave above...)


That's a great deal for a full PC, why even consider RT?

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 06:13 AM
Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

Yep, $599 for windows pro

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Hold up, $599 for a Pro device?

Come on, lets be factual here, 10 minute reboot? I'll admit I had to reboot mine 3 or 4 times yesterday, but reboots are EASILY under 30 seconds.

Abazigal
Oct 29, 2012, 06:21 AM
I don't understand why Microsoft and every other person out there is making such a huge deal out of their folding keyboard / smart cover. I mean, doesn't the ipad already have a similar 'feature' in the form of the logitech ultrathin bluetooth keyboard? :confused:

http://www.logitech.com/tablet-accessories/keyboard-cases/ultrathin-keyboard-cover

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 06:24 AM
That thing is a pain in the ass to use. Sure, it's similar in concept, but it adds quite a bit of bulk and weight to the iPad. Kinda defeats the purpose of having a lightweight tablet in the first place.

The nicest thing about the keyboard cover isn't that it's an entirely new concept, rather it's lightweight, thin, easily removed, and doesn't get in the way.

zhenya
Oct 29, 2012, 07:32 AM
Come on, lets be factual here, 10 minute reboot? I'll admit I had to reboot mine 3 or 4 times yesterday, but reboots are EASILY under 30 seconds.

My experience was completely factual; I did not imply that every reboot would take 10 minutes; but that was the reality of my first experience with this platform. Again, I understand WHY it happens; I just don't want to deal with such things on what is effectively my 3rd computer. Nor do I want to deal with 3-4 reboots a day on this category of device, even if they only take 30 seconds.

I don't understand why Microsoft and every other person out there is making such a huge deal out of their folding keyboard / smart cover. I mean, doesn't the ipad already have a similar 'feature' in the form of the logitech ultrathin bluetooth keyboard? :confused:

http://www.logitech.com/tablet-accessories/keyboard-cases/ultrathin-keyboard-cover

Similar but not quite the same. The Microsoft keyboard is far thinner and can be folded back flat against the back of the device. It also draws power directly from the tablet and uses a direct connection for communication rather than bluetooth.

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 09:16 AM
My experience was completely factual; I did not imply that every reboot would take 10 minutes; but that was the reality of my first experience with this platform. Again, I understand WHY it happens; I just don't want to deal with such things on what is effectively my 3rd computer. Nor do I want to deal with 3-4 reboots a day on this category of device, even if they only take 30 seconds.



Similar but not quite the same. The Microsoft keyboard is far thinner and can be folded back flat against the back of the device. It also draws power directly from the tablet and uses a direct connection for communication rather than bluetooth.

I understand where you are coming from, but I still find "ten minutes" almost impossible to believe. I've had windows devices, computers, laptops, tablets, windows mobile, pocket PC, smartphones, etc for 15+ years now and I can honestly say I've never had a device take "ten minutes" to reboot. Now if you are saying it had to update thru windows update, sure that happens but I've never had that be more than a couple of minutes, but it's possible there was something very very wrong with your hardware or the hard drive.

You do have an excellent point that I cannot refute, but can only back up with hard personal experience with the Samsung Ativ. Windows at this time likes to freeze and make you do a hard reboot at times, in one day of heavy use I've rebooted 3 or 4 times, a quick 20 seconds or so each time but still it's there. I don't know if it's because of the Atom CPU or what, but certainly my Desktop and laptop at home never freeze up like that in years of using them.

Right now I see the windows 8 tablets, at least the Pro ones, as markedly superior to the ipads of the world, but I see Microsoft totally ruining that with a convoluted and buggy representation, for all the simple mindedness of Apple products I'll say one thing for them, they strive for perfection and not having things like this happen. The only thing IMO Apple dropped the ball on was the CPU/GPU they paired with the Retina display, the slowness and inadequacy of that combo really reminded me of a Microsoft like move, and it's obvious that's why 7 months later they released the ipad 4.

skaertus
Oct 30, 2012, 11:58 AM
Do people want a bloated Windows OS for a tablet is a better question. How long till those OS Windows/MSFT-isms start appearing?

RT could be much lighter in my opinion. By lighter I mean as lean as Windows Phone, and less like Windows desktop.

Well, I feel the opposite. I felt that Windows RT was a much better experience than iOS. iOS works well, but it is oversimplified and limited. No real multi-tasking, for instance. One thing that I liked in Windows RT is the possibility of running two apps side-by-side on the same screen, especially in desktop mode. Now I am excited to see how Windows 8 running on Surface Pro will be.

Vetvito
Oct 31, 2012, 07:04 PM
^ it will be real windows. No comparison between a iPad and real windows can be fair.

sleek881
Nov 12, 2012, 09:07 PM
Only problem with the Surface Pro is that it will be super expensive and out of reach for most consumers.

Joesmith13245
Nov 12, 2012, 09:44 PM
I give up, some people don't understand the difference between Consumer products with open competition and the world of MS business and enterprise products. Who said those products flop? Or are you commenting without comprehending like the others are?

This is true. However, MS will leverage their business products to gain in the consumer area with the introduction of Windows 8 pro & Surface Pro. With these products users who are looking for a device that can be used as a fully productive laptop AND a tablet will get both in one device. Only time will tell if MS's bet will pay off.

Surface Pro may be pricey, unless you plan to use it as a laptop AND tablet.

spinedoc77
Nov 13, 2012, 05:08 AM
Only problem with the Surface Pro is that it will be super expensive and out of reach for most consumers.

That's only true because it has the ivy bridge CPU in it, the Atom powered Pro units will be priced about the same as an ipad. I still am confused why Microsoft isn't releasing an Atom version of the Surface, I think people who are concerned about the thickness and battery life of the ivy bridge units would snap up the Atom units real quick. I have a sneaking suspicion that MS will in fact release 2 versions of the Pro, one Atom and one Ivy bridge, but that's not based on any fact.

Plus what's super expensive? The ivy bridge is supposed to be ultrabook priced, the windows ivy bridge units from samsung and asus are about 1000-1200, about par for an ultrabook. Rumor has it that the Surface Pro will be $890, although once again not based on any fact.

pesos
Nov 13, 2012, 08:38 AM
Only problem with the Surface Pro is that it will be super expensive and out of reach for most consumers.

Umm it's gonna have the same guts as a MBA and likely cost less...

SlCKB0Y
Nov 13, 2012, 09:30 AM
.

SlCKB0Y
Nov 13, 2012, 10:01 AM
Over 1.25 billion office users? Flop?


What absolute rubbish. It's not remotely close to this number.


XBOX is a major player and,sold very well....flop?


Xbox has never been very profitable for MS. It was a money pit for years and years plus what profits they have made have been eaten into by the high number of defective units.

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So, sold out of pre orders, and people were lining up to get their Surface, how is that any indication of a flop?


This is completely meaningless without knowing the actual numbers.

I actually agree with some of the stuff you're pointing out but then you go and discredit yourself by reacting to that fool with hyperbole.

jmgregory1
Nov 13, 2012, 11:39 AM
Umm it's gonna have the same guts as a MBA and likely cost less...

What happens if/when it comes to market at the same price or higher than an 11" mba, not including the cost for the add-on keyboard? Do we then get to start saying MS products are all overpriced toys?

But I already can hear it, it's an enterprise solution, therefore it should cost more because it's better...right. Or that it's both a laptop and a tablet, although there aren't any real apps (because tablet apps are all toy/game apps anyway, right?) to use it in "tablet mode".

I'm guessing the departure of Sinofsky is going to signal a significant change to the Surface and even Windows 8, but I could be wrong.

spinedoc77
Nov 13, 2012, 12:09 PM
What happens if/when it comes to market at the same price or higher than an 11" mba, not including the cost for the add-on keyboard? Do we then get to start saying MS products are all overpriced toys?

But I already can hear it, it's an enterprise solution, therefore it should cost more because it's better...right. Or that it's both a laptop and a tablet, although there aren't any real apps (because tablet apps are all toy/game apps anyway, right?) to use it in "tablet mode".

I'm guessing the departure of Sinofsky is going to signal a significant change to the Surface and even Windows 8, but I could be wrong.

It won't be more expensive. Current ivy bridge pro units are 1000-1200 with dock, and rumor has it the surface pro will be $870, although that's just leaked pricing and not a fact. Cheapest macbook air 11" is $999 for 1.7ghz dual core i5, 64GB, HD4000 graphics, allowing $100 for the surface keyboard cover you are now at the same price. There are plenty of "apps", years and years worth of software that makes the iOS app store look like a cumberland farm on the corner.

Sinofsky leaving could be a good thing. The RT fragmentation and not having Windows 8 be seamless between touch and desktop modes are failures IMO. Maybe things are getting shaken up there.

jmgregory1
Nov 13, 2012, 12:31 PM
It won't be more expensive. Current ivy bridge pro units are 1000-1200 with dock, and rumor has it the surface pro will be $870, although that's just leaked pricing and not a fact. Cheapest macbook air 11" is $999 for 1.7ghz dual core i5, 64GB, HD4000 graphics, allowing $100 for the surface keyboard cover you are now at the same price. There are plenty of "apps", years and years worth of software that makes the iOS app store look like a cumberland farm on the corner.

Sinofsky leaving could be a good thing. The RT fragmentation and not having Windows 8 be seamless between touch and desktop modes are failures IMO. Maybe things are getting shaken up there.

I agree - my point is just that for so many years, a certain group of people considered Macs to be overpriced toys and now that they've come into their own and are generally both higher quality and priced competitively, the same crap they got isn't being shoveled on to the legacy manufacturers, whether it's HP, MS or Dell. Apple has shown people that you get what you pay for. Want to pay $300 for a laptop, you're going to get exactly what you paid for.

And yes, there are tons of legacy desktop programs written for Windows, but I'm certain that they're not all going to work with Surface or even Windows 8 on other platforms. And frankly it shouldn't work that way. Companies producing programs should be working towards the future, not building programs that work on any and every system, even if it's 20 years old. That build it for the lowest common denominator thwarts innovation and change.

spinedoc77
Nov 13, 2012, 12:50 PM
I agree - my point is just that for so many years, a certain group of people considered Macs to be overpriced toys and now that they've come into their own and are generally both higher quality and priced competitively, the same crap they got isn't being shoveled on to the legacy manufacturers, whether it's HP, MS or Dell. Apple has shown people that you get what you pay for. Want to pay $300 for a laptop, you're going to get exactly what you paid for.

And yes, there are tons of legacy desktop programs written for Windows, but I'm certain that they're not all going to work with Surface or even Windows 8 on other platforms. And frankly it shouldn't work that way. Companies producing programs should be working towards the future, not building programs that work on any and every system, even if it's 20 years old. That build it for the lowest common denominator thwarts innovation and change.

Yeah I agree with your points. Apple makes incredible hardware and deserves the credit for pushing other hardware makers into making their products better.

You are also right that companies should be working on new software paradigms that work with hardware today. My only point is that all the legacy software works, and works much better than you think on a touchscreen, but it's still desktop software being shoehorned into a touchscreen. But give it some time, it's still VERY very young and at least MS is trying to unify. They have a lot of clout and hopefully will push software makers to fall in line. MS have already done incredible work with Office for example, Office 13 works extremely well if you use it as a laptop, tablet, stylus, or a combination, it really shows how much work and thought MS put into this paradigm.

jmgregory1
Nov 13, 2012, 01:05 PM
Yeah I agree with your points. Apple makes incredible hardware and deserves the credit for pushing other hardware makers into making their products better.

You are also right that companies should be working on new software paradigms that work with hardware today. My only point is that all the legacy software works, and works much better than you think on a touchscreen, but it's still desktop software being shoehorned into a touchscreen. But give it some time, it's still VERY very young and at least MS is trying to unify. They have a lot of clout and hopefully will push software makers to fall in line. MS have already done incredible work with Office for example, Office 13 works extremely well if you use it as a laptop, tablet, stylus, or a combination, it really shows how much work and thought MS put into this paradigm.

Yep, agree completely. I do find it strange how some software companies seemingly sat on their hands as time and technology marched on. This is even more apparent, as I'm sure you're aware, in the medical device field, where some companies are using software to drive their devices that seems on par with the power and sophistication of a Texas Instruments calculator.

MS only bought themselves time by allowing support of legacy systems and operating systems and they obviously didn't use the time very wisely to bring their own systems up to speed. I suppose that's a common problem once you grow to the size they are.

And I should talk, the machine my company uses to produce our product uses "computers" that are nothing more than glorified switches driven by a rudimentary system. 5 years ago we were told it would cost upwards of $500k to upgrade and have it driven by a real computer system. Today, we'll spend around $50k, which includes both hardware and programming for an even more sophisticated system.