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OSMac
Oct 27, 2012, 12:56 PM
Be interested in hearing from any Surface RT / iPad owners.

How is the screen compared to the iPad, OS, etc...



DoctorYuyi
Oct 27, 2012, 01:13 PM
The Surface has no apps. .

Yr Blues
Oct 27, 2012, 01:16 PM
I reckon no one will be using it as a tablet. It's a wonky laptop that can't be used on your lap.

It's so long that in portrait mode you can really feel the weight and awkwardness.

Apple got it right with 4:3

Without mobile options, you can't really use it for business/enterprise. Even the iPad mini has LTE options.

clukas
Oct 27, 2012, 01:45 PM
The Surface has no apps.

Thats something that will come over time, but it does seem like developer are in no hurry. If this product was really "hot" then apps such as fb, spotify would already be on there. This could be an indication that developers are not as exited about it.

HazyCloud
Oct 27, 2012, 02:08 PM
Read this from the creator of Instapaper. It's one of the best articles I've read about the Surface.

http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe

GoSh4rks
Oct 27, 2012, 02:23 PM
Read this from the creator of Instapaper. It's one of the best articles I've read about the Surface.

http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe

This is one of the most apple-biased articles that I've read. He complains about EVERYTHING and basically the entire article is bashing Microsoft.

HazyCloud
Oct 27, 2012, 02:32 PM
This is one of the most apple-biased articles that I've read. He complains about EVERYTHING and basically the entire article is bashing Microsoft.

I never said it wasn't biased. :)

Here's a couple reviews from Techcrunch and Gizmodo.

Techcrunch (http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-rt-review/)

Gizmodo (http://gizmodo.com/5953866/microsoft-surface-rt-review-this-is-technological-heartbreak)

pcunite
Oct 27, 2012, 03:04 PM
Read this from the creator of Instapaper. It's one of the best articles I've read about the Surface.

http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe

The iPad was thought to not ever make it.

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 03:20 PM
If you want a real review, go to www.anandtech.com

The RT is great. No apps? Hmm mine seemed to come with a few that seem rather useful... Little no-names like Word, Excel, Powerpoint... Between those, IE/Mail/Calendar/Contacts, and Lync RT I can do everything I used to do on my iPad and about 10x more.

Wish the resolution was higher (Pro will have 1920x1080) but elements still look very good. Type/touch covers are impressive. RDP/citrix work great.

With the unrestricted USB port this could easily be a full time computing device for a student and many other scenarios as well.

waa1futs
Oct 27, 2012, 03:47 PM
If you want a real review, go to www.anandtech.com

Exactly. Anandtech and http://www.heelsandtech.com/ are the only two review sites worth anything. Both are amazing review sites that are scientific and unbiased. I highly recommend both :)

golf1410
Oct 27, 2012, 03:55 PM
I have a feeling that Microsoft surface will be successful.

zbarvian
Oct 27, 2012, 04:11 PM
This is one of the most apple-biased articles that I've read. He complains about EVERYTHING and basically the entire article is bashing Microsoft.

Doesn't make his points any less valuable. The description of the store and employees sounds pretty embarrassing.

GoSh4rks
Oct 27, 2012, 04:15 PM
Doesn't make his points any less valuable. The description of the store and employees sounds pretty embarrassing.

And you don't think that there was creative license used in that description? You can't take things written with obvious favoritism at face value.

zbarvian
Oct 27, 2012, 04:22 PM
And you don't think that there was creative license used in that description? You can't take things written with obvious favoritism at face value.

You can't attack an argument by attacking the author. He might be biased, but if you can't speak to his points, then you can't speak at all.

Cyloncat
Oct 27, 2012, 04:28 PM
It's a stormy Saturday afternoon and I have time to do this, so settle back for a long one...

I'm on my second iPad (do we call it "3G" now?), and I have a Samsung Series 7 Windows Slate (last year's model). The Samsung was Microsoft's reference platform when they were building Windows 8, so if any pre-RT tablet runs Win8 well, this one should, and does. So I have long experience with both platforms, as tablets.

First, I need to distinguish between Windows RT and Windows 8, because this will be a confusion factor for a long time to come. At a hardware level, "Windows RT" refers to ARM-based tablets, and "Windows 8" refers to Intel-based tablets. At an OS level, they're the same operating system, except where differentiated between consumer and enterprise versions. At an application level, the new programming interface is "WinRT" regardless of platform. WinRT applications ("Windows Store Apps", formerly known as Metro style), run on both ARM and Intel platforms. The operating system also supports a "classic" desktop mode; on Intel hardware, this will run anything that runs on Windows 7. On ARM hardware, the desktop runs only MS Office and IE 10; MS plans to keep this locked down. Clear enough? Probably not....

Oh yes, IE 10 runs in both modes, as desktop and as "Metro style". They look and feel like completely different browsers, and follow the appropriate rules and guidelines for each environment.

Because Windows tablets are being made by numerous vendors in both ARM and Intel configurations, comparisons to the iPad are not simple. The high-end Windows tablet hardware will beat the socks of the iPad (and will be priced accordingly); the low-end tablets will be inferior to the iPad. You can only compare specific models. However, you can expect most or all Windows tablets to support keyboard, mouse, Bluetooth, USB, HD cards, HDMI out, and through docks, Ethernet and external monitors.

So on to comparisons:

Operating system: Both iOS and Windows 8 have discoverability issues, but the learning curves are roughly equivalent. Windows 8 is very smooth and fluid, and the start page scrolls continuously, unlike iOS with multiple "pages". While the live tiles have been called an "ADD interface" (as in attention deficit disorder), they do present a lot of information about things you might want to know, without opening any apps. What's on my calendar? Who's emailed me, and what about? What's topping the news? What's the temperature outside? Organizing the tiles is also pretty flexible. Settings and search are easily accessible without leaving the start page, simply by swiping in from the right edge. You can switch applications by swiping in from the left edge. Application functions are accessible by swiping in from the top or bottom edge. Application search, share, and settings use the same "swipe from right" and tools that the OS provides. (Microsoft enforces this when allowing apps into the app store.) Overall, Windows 8 wins over iOS here; it's fast, fluid, highly consistent, and stays out of your way. The live tiles are a big step forward. The "snap" feature that allows two "Metro style" apps to display at once is also a big win.

Another OS consideration is that Windows 8 exposes the file system, while iOS pointedly does not. Document sharing between apps and between individuals is a lot easier on Windows.

Cloud usage: I'll rate them equal. iOS and OSX share settings through iCloud. Windows 8 does the same across devices and PCs. iCloud stores files. So does SkyDrive, but it's available for Windows, OSX, and iOS, which is nice.

Apps: On launch day, Microsoft had over 5000 apps in the Windows Store, not bad for a new platform. The store rules are similar to Apple's app store, with a fairly strict approval process. While you won't find all your favorite apps there yet, I expect the app store to grow quickly. The APIs and programming tools are an evolution on Microsoft's already excellent tooling, and there are many millions of developers who can make that transition quickly. Many already have. So (for Windows RT, at least) iOS wins for now, but this will evolve.

For Intel-based tablets, though, the situation is much different. My Samsung tablet runs Photoshop CS6 under Windows 8. It runs Visual Studio for software development. It can run web and database servers (real-world production stuff, like SQL Server and IIS). My iPad doesn't do any of these things.

Business use: Windows has a big advantage here, simply by being Windows. Existing business apps will run on Intel-based tablets. Windows 8 supports all the system management and security tools that enterprises demand. While business will generally not move quickly (they never do), I expect Windows 8 to work for BYOD scenarios much more easily than iOS or Android.

Consumer use: Here's there the iPad wins. The retina displays are outstanding, and the 4:3 form factor is easier to hold. While high-end Windows tablets will have 1080 HD displays, those won't be in the iPad's price range, at least for a while. For media consumption, I'll stay with my iPad; I read books (Kindle app), surf the web, watch videos. Windows does all these things, and also does them well, and I could be happy with just my Windows tablet. But my Samsung tablet is a bit heavier, doesn't have the same battery life, and the Kindle app isn't quite as smooth in paging (but it's getting better). I do like the wide aspect ratio for video, though, and hopefully the power management will improve with maturity both in hardware and software.

Content creation: I'll leave this one wide open. It all depends on what you want to create, and what tools you need, both hardware and software. Laptops and desktops are going to rule in this area for a while longer, both for Windows and Mac.

Marketing: Here's the rub. While Intel-based Windows 8 tablets are clearly oriented to business and professional users, I really don't know where the ARM-based Windows RT is going. By contrast, Apple's marketing is pretty clear, with the only drawback being that the crossover between iOS and OSX isn't so easy.

So there it is, one person's opinion.

GoSh4rks
Oct 27, 2012, 04:39 PM
You can't attack an argument by attacking the author. He might be biased, but if you can't speak to his points, then you can't speak at all.

The guy called the store "creepy." That's creative license right there.

His entire introduction paragraph to the store is full of useless information that sets the mood against Microsoft.

I don't know anything about the author; this is first article of his that I've read. It is obvious that he has an axe to grind and I still stand by my statement that you shouldn't take anything the article says at face value.

charlieegan3
Oct 27, 2012, 04:42 PM
I have a feeling that Microsoft surface will be successful.

I hope the surface will be successful. I have a feeling it may not be.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 04:49 PM
I hope the surface will be successful. I have a feeling it may not be.

Well, the fact that they sold out of 32gb models via pre order, and had people lining up to snap up what was left of the 64gb models, says that people want this tablet.

charlieegan3
Oct 27, 2012, 04:52 PM
Well, the fact that they sold out of 32gb models via pre order, and had people lining up to snap up what was left of the 64gb models, says that people want this tablet.

But that's just all about the number they made to sell. We have no idea how many they had, so no idea how many sold out means.

urkel
Oct 27, 2012, 04:59 PM
It's so hypocritical that with Apple Maps then "It's new so you're all idiots for thinking Maps should be complete from day one" but with Microsoft Surface it's "There's no apps so the surface is a failure".

I prefer iOS so I picked up two iPad Minis instead. but the Surface still is incredibly appealing due to Office and some interesting hardware. Id buy one for the next family member who wants a new computer.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 05:10 PM
But that's just all about the number they made to sell. We have no idea how many they had, so no idea how many sold out means.

They probably made a decent amount I would assume, even half a million ( and I bet they made more ) is a good achomplishment for Microsoft.

its an uphill battle for sure, the iPad is a freaking awesome product.

But, the Surface, already is looking to be an awesome product to.

I bet these people lining up were wanting to buy an iPad, but the iPad just couldn't do what they needed it to.

----------

It's so hypocritical that with Apple Maps then "It's new so you're all idiots for thinking Maps should be complete from day one" but with Microsoft Surface it's "There's no apps so the surface is a failure".

I prefer iOS so I picked up two iPad Minis instead. but the Surface still is incredibly appealing due to Office and some interesting hardware. Id buy one for the next family member who wants a new computer.

Well, the iPad launched with next to no apps ( no, ****** blow up iPhone apps do not count ), and it was CLEARLY a failure....100 million sold....failure....:rolleyes:

Cyloncat
Oct 27, 2012, 05:14 PM
Another Surface review:

http://www.zdnet.com/hands-on-with-microsofts-surface-rt-can-it-hit-the-sweet-spot-7000006258/

DeathChill
Oct 27, 2012, 06:09 PM
Here's a review with videos showing various issues:
http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/


The mail app one is crazy! I can't believe it presents you with an empty screen with no prompts.

However, it seems the hardware is just outstanding and the software just needs a bit more work.

Vegastouch
Oct 27, 2012, 06:35 PM
Doesn't make his points any less valuable. The description of the store and employees sounds pretty embarrassing.

Please....so him saying there were more salesreps than customers looking? Well im sure glad i had that info :rolleyes:

Dont know what time that was when he was there or what but today there sure were many people looking at the new W8 devices...old and young. Should i take that as the new devices must be great?

Well i did try them out for myself and imo, the W8 devices will sell like hotcakes. You can put it back in desktop mode as well if you dont like the tiles.

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 06:59 PM
You can put it back in desktop mode as well if you dont like the tiles.

How do you do that? I remember when I tried a preview version of Win8, it kept dumping me back at the tiles whenever I wanted to launch a new app.

Here's a review with videos showing various issues:
http://ozar.me/2012/10/why-im-returning-my-microsoft-surface-rt/

I was just reading this article and noticed, toward the end of the article:
"Verdict: Wait for the Surface Pro
The Surface Pro comes out in a few months. The hardware design is very similar, but heavier, thicker, and with a “real” processor that requires a fan."

I had forgotten about the fan in Surface Pro! How well do you think that will work for a tablet you hold in your hand? Fans are fine on a laptop, but on a tablet? So how serious is Microsoft about making the Surface Pro work as a tablet?

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 08:29 PM
Doesn't make his points any less valuable. The description of the store and employees sounds pretty embarrassing.

Eh. The entire thing reads like a guy who wants to hate what he's about to see, and doesn't disappoint himself.

dolbinau
Oct 27, 2012, 08:31 PM
I tried Surface with Type Cover (I found touch cover a lot less useful).

I was able to type 100+ WPM in word, while multi-tasking with a journal article open on the same screen, in a device basically as thin and light as an iPad. This is absolutely unachievable on an iPad (you can't multi-task, adding a keyboard on an iPad sacrifices a lot of weight/size and battery, there is no office).

Now, it's difficult to see why Surface has much advantage over say a MBA because there are still some compromises (I suppose it is much cheaper, which probably does make all the difference). But purely iPad vs Surface, you can do things on a Surface in terms of productivity you just can't do on an iPad. So I think it does have at least one advantage.

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 08:49 PM
If you want a real review, go to www.anandtech.com

The RT is great. No apps? Hmm mine seemed to come with a few that seem rather useful... Little no-names like Word, Excel, Powerpoint... Between those, IE/Mail/Calendar/Contacts, and Lync RT I can do everything I used to do on my iPad and about 10x more.

Wish the resolution was higher (Pro will have 1920x1080) but elements still look very good. Type/touch covers are impressive. RDP/citrix work great.

With the unrestricted USB port this could easily be a full time computing device for a student and many other scenarios as well.
USB port maybe unrestricted, but drives more than likely would not be there at all. From the all the initial postings I have seen is the Surface RT can't even hook up to a printer to print, which makes it even more useless than a regular PC.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 08:52 PM
USB port maybe unrestricted, but drives more than likely would not be there at all. From the all the initial postings I have seen is the Surface RT can't even hook up to a printer to print, which makes it even more useless than a regular PC.

But it's a PC running a SUPER INNOVATIVE ARM CHIP! You should love it!

From what I've read, if you've got at least a halfway modern printer (released in the last 5 years or so), it fires right up as soon as you plug it into the USB port. RT has roughly the same accessory support as Windows does, so it shouldn't be an issue provided you're not using some weird off brand.

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 08:53 PM
Now, it's difficult to see why Surface has much advantage over say a MBA because there are still some compromises (I suppose it is much cheaper, which probably does make all the difference).
I am pretty sure battery life is another advantage of the Surface, which is closer to 10 hours vs the 6-7 on the 11in Air. But the biggest advantage is it's superior ARM architecture, thought it is bogged down by it's OS.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 08:54 PM
But the biggest advantage is it's superior ARM architecture

Ha! Called it!

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 08:55 PM
But it's a PC running a SUPER INNOVATIVE ARM CHIP! You should love it!

From what I've read, if you've got at least a halfway modern printer (released in the last 5 years or so), it fires right up as soon as you plug it into the USB port. RT has roughly the same accessory support as Windows does, so it shouldn't be an issue provided you're not using some weird off brand.

I do like that it is running ARM, but the fact that it is still a PC is a big no for me as a Mac purist.

----------

Ha! Called it!
Is it because you read my previous post, or my sig?

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 09:01 PM
I do like that it is running ARM, but the fact that it is still a PC is a big no for me as a Mac purist.

Why be a "purist". I use Macs and PCs all the time, and haven't gotten any STDs yet or anything. Haven't even been struck by a bolt of lightning for daring to make the choice.

A computer is a computer to me. Apple makes great computers, but at the end of the day I'm still doing about the same thing on them as I would on a PC. Being a purist seems like you're doing nothing but limiting your options by being overly loyal to a brand name.

"As a Nike zealot, I refuse to buy any of that Adidas crap. I feel their products...reduce me as a person".

Is it because you read my previous post, or my sig?

Previous posts. There's nothing superior about ARM chips besides battery life. And it's only superior there in the same way a Vespa scooter is superior to a Bugatti Veyron.

SeanR1
Oct 27, 2012, 09:26 PM
I tried Surface with Type Cover (I found touch cover a lot less useful).

I was able to type 100+ WPM in word, while multi-tasking with a journal article open on the same screen, in a device basically as thin and light as an iPad. This is absolutely unachievable on an iPad (you can't multi-task, adding a keyboard on an iPad sacrifices a lot of weight/size and battery, there is no office).

Now, it's difficult to see why Surface has much advantage over say a MBA because there are still some compromises (I suppose it is much cheaper, which probably does make all the difference). But purely iPad vs Surface, you can do things on a Surface in terms of productivity you just can't do on an iPad. So I think it does have at least one advantage.

Why would you want to use Word when you could use..........Pages!!! ;)

Technarchy
Oct 27, 2012, 10:34 PM
I played with RT for a good 20 minutes and I found it to be a mostly satisfying experience.

However Windows 8 in general is not what I call intuitive. It has way too many Easter eggs for its own good.

Overall, I think Microsoft has made some daring but good moves.

sleek881
Oct 27, 2012, 10:47 PM
The Mail app is very plain, doesn't have many options. Certainly doesn't compare with iOS Mail app. You can't even add a POP mail account.

Renzatic
Oct 27, 2012, 11:01 PM
You can't even add a POP mail account.

Yeah, you can. Just go to add accounts/other accounts.

GoSh4rks
Oct 28, 2012, 12:36 AM
The Mail app is very plain, doesn't have many options. Certainly doesn't compare with iOS Mail app. You can't even add a POP mail account.

Nobody in their right mind should be using POP over IMAP.

jry
Oct 28, 2012, 12:52 AM
I'm an iPad 2 and Surface owner - arrived Friday. I got the 64 GB with black touch cover.

Over all I'm very pleased with my purchase. I've been using Windows 8 on a regular basis every since it went RTM in August, so the interface is rather familiar to me. For me, the touch gestures and navigation of the Surface are much better than iOS.

Hooking up our wireless Epson printer was seamless. The Surface automatically detected it on the network and installed drivers. I found the touch cover keyboard to be very responsive and easy to adapt to.

I'm not a big app consumer, so right now the only one missing for me for the Surface is HBO Go. Granted the email app is lacking in features, but I'm certain that will improve.

The desktop mode is pretty awesome. There is full network navigation and I'm able to access files on other workstations by supplying AD credentials. The Surface RT can't join a domain, but you can still authenticate through one.

Windows RT is also multiuser allowing you to setup separate accounts with their own document libraries and settings.

cnev3
Oct 28, 2012, 01:12 AM
There is a good 30-90 day "honeymoon" period that comes with high end electronics purchases. Of course anyone who bought a Surface will be in love with it, and may even profess to continue to feel that way forever.

Time is the true test. Time with the device, time to see how adequately the library grows, and the updates come, issues resolved, etc...

I had a lot of friends who bought the PS Vita when it first came out, they loved it, and raved about it a lot for the first few weeks. All of them ended up selling theirs.

jry
Oct 28, 2012, 01:19 AM
Yeah, you can. Just go to add accounts/other accounts.

Nope. I just tried it. It shows POP3 as one of the options, but then says its not supported when you select it . Maybe support will added later. IMAP is better anyway and any decent mail server supports it.

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 08:59 AM
I'm more curious about the atom Pro devices, although I believe the Surface Pro will be ivy bridge. The surface RT is MS trying to out Apple Apple, and I don't think that will work and is a bad move. The surface Pro is what is going to be huge, but we will have to wait and see if MS does something with the battery life and cooling without making it too thick, that's why personally I have more faith in the Atom cpu ones.

ReallyBigFeet
Oct 28, 2012, 11:04 AM
I have a feeling that Microsoft surface will be successful.

I have a feeling that Microsoft has lost any hope of ever having a coherent product strategy again. They've totally lost their way and I see no signs of them recovering any sense of "This is who we are, That is our customer and HERE is how we exceed their expectations."

Sad really. They used to be so influential.

Why would you want to use Word when you could use..........Pages!!! ;)

I know you are being sarcastic, but dear god, when will Apple figure out how to let users do things like formatting in a manner that makes sense? Pages is the most unintuitive mess of underwhelming features I've seen since....hmmm....Paperclip for the Commodore 64 maybe?

pesos
Oct 28, 2012, 11:22 AM
USB port maybe unrestricted, but drives more than likely would not be there at all. From the all the initial postings I have seen is the Surface RT can't even hook up to a printer to print, which makes it even more useless than a regular PC.

Actually my drives show up immediately, just like x86 Windows. And the thing automatically found my Brother wireless printer.

People really don't get the whole arm/x86 thing. This is a full blown OS, it just can't run the legacy x86 apps. Kind of like when Apple switched to Intel.

----------

There is a good 30-90 day "honeymoon" period that comes with high end electronics purchases. Of course anyone who bought a Surface will be in love with it, and may even profess to continue to feel that way forever.

Time is the true test. Time with the device, time to see how adequately the library grows, and the updates come, issues resolved, etc...

I had a lot of friends who bought the PS Vita when it first came out, they loved it, and raved about it a lot for the first few weeks. All of them ended up selling theirs.

I buy and sell these devices regularly. We have to stay abreast of the options for our clients... So I don't tend to get very attached. What I do notice is when I actually continue to use things. The iPads I've owned have generally sat around except for meetings and demos - my girlfriend got way more use out of it than I did, browsing recipes and crafts etc. But I've already found myself going to the surface instead of my MBP to do work and other tasks while watching our Giants crush the Tigers...

----------

The Mail app is very plain, doesn't have many options. Certainly doesn't compare with iOS Mail app. You can't even add a POP mail account.

Where do you people come up with this stuff? Is it just throwing spaghetti against the wall?

WindWaker
Oct 28, 2012, 12:35 PM
Actually my drives show up immediately, just like x86 Windows. And the thing automatically found my Brother wireless printer.

People really don't get the whole arm/x86 thing. This is a full blown OS, it just can't run the legacy x86 apps. Kind of like when Apple switched to Intel.

----------



I buy and sell these devices regularly. We have to stay abreast of the options for our clients... So I don't tend to get very attached. What I do notice is when I actually continue to use things. The iPads I've owned have generally sat around except for meetings and demos - my girlfriend got way more use out of it than I did, browsing recipes and crafts etc. But I've already found myself going to the surface instead of my MBP to do work and other tasks while watching our Giants crush the Tigers...

----------



Where do you people come up with this stuff? Is it just throwing spaghetti against the wall?


Pesos, how do you find integration between your iphone, surface, and Mac?

pesos
Oct 28, 2012, 12:54 PM
Pesos, how do you find integration between your iphone, surface, and Mac?

Well, like I mentioned earlier I am a fan of Apple hardware but do not care at all for OS X, so my MBP is basically running win8 full time an has been for months. So file sharing between it and the surface is quite easy. Skydrive works very well for most things but I also have direct file sharing set up; mostly for testing purposes currently.

As for the iPhone we all know its pros and cons and limitations (stuck to iTunes). I still find it a much more compelling device than the mess that is android. Apple generally has done a good job with their activesync implementation which is the most critical aspect of a phone for me (the latest i5/ios6 push bug notwithstanding).

I will definitely be giving Winphone8 options a good hard look over the next year.

Smileyboy
Oct 28, 2012, 01:49 PM
It looks interesting... However, I'm watching my Steelers play the Redskins and I just saw a Surface commercial.... My wife and I are left wondering, does the device help you dance better or randomly creat flash mobs? I have when companies do that.. It explains nothing.

Black Magic
Oct 28, 2012, 02:00 PM
Eh. The entire thing reads like a guy who wants to hate what he's about to see, and doesn't disappoint himself.

He made valid points. Microsoft doesn't innovate, they copy. Looking at the pics he took of the Microsoft store was down right embarrassing. Not only are they copying features like magnetic power plugs, but they are copying store design and employee dress codes.

Why buy a wanna be clone when you can go buy the original innovation/trend setter?

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 02:28 PM
He made valid points. Microsoft doesn't innovate, they copy. Looking at the pics he took of the Microsoft store was down right embarrassing. Not only are they copying features like magnetic power plugs, but they are copying store design and employee dress codes.

Why buy a wanna be clone when you can go buy the original innovation/trend setter?

I'd rather buy the best device, not follow the fashion trend either way. Who cares who copies, they ALL do. This is the most hilarious argument/point I've ever heard anyone come up with.

Black Magic
Oct 28, 2012, 03:28 PM
I'd rather buy the best device, not follow the fashion trend either way. Who cares who copies, they ALL do. This is the most hilarious argument/point I've ever heard anyone come up with.

Do you know how ridiculous you sound? the iPad is the best tablet device out. Surely you don't believe that the Surface is a better product? If so, the depths of your stupidity are staggering.

ReanimationN
Oct 28, 2012, 03:39 PM
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? the iPad is the best tablet device out. Surely you don't believe that the Surface is a better product? If so, the depths of your stupidity are staggering.

For what? Not for using MS Office with a decent keyboard. Even if Windows 8 tablets had no apps other than MS Office and a browser, I'd still rather get a Windows tablet over an iPad. I do a lot of writing (for work and for my Masters), and for that reason the Surface is immediately a far better tablet device for me. As it would be for a lot of students. I can use all the iOS apps on my phone, I'd much rather have something I could get things done with, rather than use the same apps as my phone on a bigger screen.

GoSh4rks
Oct 28, 2012, 05:06 PM
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? the iPad is the best tablet device out. Surely you don't believe that the Surface is a better product? If so, the depths of your stupidity are staggering.

So you're saying that if you think that the Surface is a better product that the iPad, you are stupid and being ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Pot, meet kettle.

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 05:16 PM
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? the iPad is the best tablet device out. Surely you don't believe that the Surface is a better product? If so, the depths of your stupidity are staggering.

Nope, I didn't say Surface was a better product. I was just commenting on how ridiculous YOU sounded saying you should buy an ipad just because it was supposedly some kind of "original" tablet everyone else copied from.

j_maddison
Oct 28, 2012, 07:16 PM
Will Excel on the Surface RT run a file that has been created using VB? I have a pricing tool I use in work, and the whether this runs or not on RT would be a deal breaker for me.

Mind you I can't get the file to run on a Mac either, which means I still have to lug around my crappy Dell brick just to run one programme. It would be great to have an alternative, so I'm hoping RT will be the answer to my problems.

Thanks

Night Spring
Oct 28, 2012, 08:09 PM
Mind you I can't get the file to run on a Mac either, which means I still have to lug around my crappy Dell brick just to run one programme. It would be great to have an alternative, so I'm hoping RT will be the answer to my problems.

Can't tell you whether that will run on RT, but have you tried running Windows in a VM, such as Parallels or Fusion, or considered using bootcamp to run Windows on your Mac? That should allow you to get rid of your Dell.

j_maddison
Oct 28, 2012, 08:14 PM
Can't tell you whether that will run on RT, but have you tried running Windows in a VM, such as Parallels or Fusion, or considered using bootcamp to run Windows on your Mac? That should allow you to get rid of your Dell.

I've used Bootcamp with XP pro and Windows 7
I've also run VM Ware fusion 3 (XP & W7) and 4 (W7)

No luck with any of the combos. A friend of mine recently purchased a 15" Retina MBP, he used bootcamp and win 7 as well as Parallels with Win 7, again no luck

I'm pretty sure it's something that the Mac does with the file, because it opens on my work laptop, and it also opens on my friends home and office computer.

But thanks for the advice, appreciate it.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 10:05 AM
Nope, I didn't say Surface was a better product. I was just commenting on how ridiculous YOU sounded saying you should buy an ipad just because it was supposedly some kind of "original" tablet everyone else copied from.

Again, the iPad is the BEST tablet out right now, why would you buy a half-ass clone?

j_maddison
Oct 29, 2012, 10:13 AM
Again, the iPad is the BEST tablet out right now, why would you buy a half-ass clone?

It's not a half ass one, it's a first gen. I agree the iPad is most definitely the best tablet out there, which is why I have one and why I plan to upgrade from my iPad 2 to the Mini. But I can see where the Surface would benefit me in work in a way the iPad wouldn't.

The Surface has a long way to go mind, but I think everyone knows that and take it for what it is. It's a very good concept though, but I think MS are just messing up by crippling the RT in some ways, while confusing people to think the Pro is a tablet device, when it's a Laptop/ tablet hybrid.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 10:16 AM
Again, the iPad is the BEST tablet out right now, why would you buy a half-ass clone?

It's obvious you haven't worked with the Surface. It can do a lot more than the iPad can, and doesn't have Apple's artificial limitations imposed on it. I've owned three, and find the Surface to be very liberating. Now if your needs fall within Apple's tightly walled garden and you don't care about the fact that you can't use USB devices or copy things to and from your device without using iTunes, then the iPad is a fantastic option too.

craftytony
Oct 29, 2012, 10:27 AM
Read this from the creator of Instapaper. It's one of the best articles I've read about the Surface.

http://www.marco.org/2012/10/26/an-alternate-universe

Great Article....the author really nailed it!

TheHateMachine
Oct 29, 2012, 10:28 AM
Will Excel on the Surface RT run a file that has been created using VB? I have a pricing tool I use in work, and the whether this runs or not on RT would be a deal breaker for me.

Mind you I can't get the file to run on a Mac either, which means I still have to lug around my crappy Dell brick just to run one programme. It would be great to have an alternative, so I'm hoping RT will be the answer to my problems.

Thanks

The version of Excel on Win RT will not run VB afaik.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 10:37 AM
Great Article....the author really nailed it!

Wow, what a ridiculous article! Basically everything he said is untrue, but the price comparison he does is probably the most absurd. He keeps comparing the Surface's price to the iPad mini instead of the iPad. Wonder why...

TheHateMachine
Oct 29, 2012, 10:39 AM
I went to the store on Friday. I am dead set on buying a Surface Pro to replace my work laptop. I wanted to try out the Surface RT and after about 5 minutes of toying with it i went and bought it. Its a pretty nifty device. Works flawlessly with my other Win 7 PCs and sharing files and resources is a breeze.

I found the App store lacking but I honestly expected this. I noticed that a lot of the normal apps I use on my S3 and my iPad were missing like Pandora and Facebook. It didn't matter since I just used the website instead. Hell even Xbox music is a pretty good Pandora alternative. Apps that were available worked very well. There might be some issue with some developers though. I ran into apps that were graphics heavy that ran great then there were apps that for the most part ran well but had areas where FPS dropped. Not sure if it is the hardware or a bad port from the developers.

The screen is good, not iPad 3 good. Reading websites in portrait mode was kind of painful on certain websites. Other than that it looks purdy.

As for the feel of the device. It feels as light or lighter than my iPad. I brought it to work today and everyone either says its lighter or as light. In fact we have a guy we poached from an Apple Store and he even said it felt lighter. Even though the Surface is slightly thinner than the iPad 3 it doesn't feel as thin because of the angled edges. Overall it feels very well built, feels good in your hands and the touch cover is amazing. I was expecting a soft rubbery keyboard but instead i got this flat almost touch screen like keyboard with an amazing track pad.

The UI is really smooth, come to expect that considering how smooth Win Phone 7 was and my impressions of Windows 8 Preview. My only nags were flash heavy sites and a few bundled apps (Xbox Music, Email) that had a little bit of sluggishness. Mostly when they are loading.

Overall I am very impressed with the Surface RT. I'm really in the market for the Surface Pro and was debating if I was going to sell off the Surface RT when it launched. After using it over the weekend I think I will hold on to it.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 10:40 AM
It's obvious you haven't worked with the Surface. It can do a lot more than the iPad can, and doesn't have Apple's artificial limitations imposed on it. I've owned three, and find the Surface to be very liberating. Now if your needs fall within Apple's tightly walled garden and you don't care about the fact that you can't use USB devices or copy things to and from your device without using iTunes, then the iPad is a fantastic option too.

No, I haven't used a Surface as I don't have a need. I have used Windows 8 which is basically the same OS on the Surface (if you will) and it sucks. The only major selling point is Microsoft Office. That's coming to the IOS next year but again not something I really need as I have moved on from Office.

My buddy has one though and it's heavy. Not something I would want to hold for long periods to play around with. Not many apps. No VPN capabilities. Unless you have a need for Office and use it all the time, I would not buy this first gen product.

Keep in mind how Microsoft recently abandoned the first gen Windows Phone 7. I feel sorry for all the poor souls that bought that product.

j_maddison
Oct 29, 2012, 10:43 AM
The version of Excel on Win RT will not run VB afaik.

Thanks for letting me know, appreciate it

That's a shame. I'm not sure why MS have positioned RT as a work device in comparison to the iToy and then crippled it with Home Office. That's a shame really, and kind of contradicts their little jibe at the iPad

craftytony
Oct 29, 2012, 10:50 AM
Wow, what a ridiculous article! Basically everything he said is untrue, but the price comparison he does is probably the most absurd. He keeps comparing the Surface's price to the iPad mini instead of the iPad. Wonder why...

This was my favorite part of the article:

"The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with the glass front and the glowing logo and blue shirts and white lanyards and these table layouts and the modern tablet and its magnetic power cable. In that world, this is a groundbreaking new tablet that you can finally use at work and leave your big creaky plastic Dell laptop behind when you go to the conference room to have a conference call on the starfish phone with all of the wires and dysfunctional communication."

We've had Windows 8 here at work on a Lenovo all-in-one touchscreen now for months...none of us can stand using it. So now it just sits...

"lipstick on a pig" is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of windows 8

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 10:50 AM
It's not a half ass one, it's a first gen. I agree the iPad is most definitely the best tablet out there, which is why I have one and why I plan to upgrade from my iPad 2 to the Mini. But I can see where the Surface would benefit me in work in a way the iPad wouldn't.

The Surface has a long way to go mind, but I think everyone knows that and take it for what it is. It's a very good concept though, but I think MS are just messing up by crippling the RT in some ways, while confusing people to think the Pro is a tablet device, when it's a Laptop/ tablet hybrid.

Meh, he's just a teen Troll looking to be negative in an otherwise very interesting discussion, best to move on.

I think the "best" tablet is what is good for that particular consumer, too often we get into which tablet is "best" when that just breeds fanboyism instead of just a nice discussion where people weight pros and cons.

For me the "best" tablet is a windows Pro tablet, it suits my needs both personally and in business. For me iOS is too compromising, I give up too much from having a real OS. I've settled with it for 3 years and it gave me some great functionality, but I knew eventually someone would come with a more serious tablet. If you mainly like media consumption currently it's still king of the hill, you just won't get much serious work done with it, and there is nothing wrong with that if that's what your needs dictate.

jrswizzle
Oct 29, 2012, 10:53 AM
I tried Surface with Type Cover (I found touch cover a lot less useful).

I was able to type 100+ WPM in word, while multi-tasking with a journal article open on the same screen, in a device basically as thin and light as an iPad. This is absolutely unachievable on an iPad (you can't multi-task, adding a keyboard on an iPad sacrifices a lot of weight/size and battery, there is no office).

Now, it's difficult to see why Surface has much advantage over say a MBA because there are still some compromises (I suppose it is much cheaper, which probably does make all the difference). But purely iPad vs Surface, you can do things on a Surface in terms of productivity you just can't do on an iPad. So I think it does have at least one advantage.

First of all - there is "office", just not MS Office (yet). I've found Pages to be a more than adequate word processor.

And I feel I personally can type about as fast on the iPad's touch screen as I can on a tactile keyboard - I think its a matter of preference and whether or not you get used to it (I tried other keyboards for the iPad and wasn't impressed - some similar to the covers Surface has - just ended up getting used to typing on the iPad).

I'll give you the multitasking part - When typing a paper, story, article, whatever and referencing something else it would be extremely convenient to have both the document AND the article open at the same time. I think this is something Apple could use AirPlay to open up. Instead of having the option only to mirror, why not be able to choose which screen to open which apps up in (when connected to a TV/monitor via AirPlay). A software tweak that may undoubtedly be more difficult than I realize, nevertheless the opportunity is there.

For me, the Surface is just too large and the screen res too low. I applaud MS for coming up with something entirely different than anything out on the market (*cough* Android *cough*) but from what my friends and family tell me (the ones not quite as tech savvy) - Win8 is too different and its uncomfortable.

The lines are being blurred between tablet and laptop - which has happened before (back when "tablets" were essentially laptops without keyboards). I think it remains to be seen where the industry goes from here.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 11:01 AM
This was my favorite part of the article:

"The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with the glass front and the glowing logo and blue shirts and white lanyards and these table layouts and the modern tablet and its magnetic power cable. In that world, this is a groundbreaking new tablet that you can finally use at work and leave your big creaky plastic Dell laptop behind when you go to the conference room to have a conference call on the starfish phone with all of the wires and dysfunctional communication."

We've had Windows 8 here at work on a Lenovo all-in-one touchscreen now for months...none of us can stand using it. So now it just sits...

"lipstick on a pig" is the first thing that comes to mind when I think of windows 8

Interesting. We've moved 4 or so folks over at one of our clients and everyone else is clamoring to get it - everyone seems to love it.

jrswizzle
Oct 29, 2012, 11:04 AM
It's obvious you haven't worked with the Surface. It can do a lot more than the iPad can, and doesn't have Apple's artificial limitations imposed on it. I've owned three, and find the Surface to be very liberating. Now if your needs fall within Apple's tightly walled garden and you don't care about the fact that you can't use USB devices or copy things to and from your device without using iTunes, then the iPad is a fantastic option too.

Be careful with the "It can do a lot more than the iPad can" line. That has been said about Android for forever and I couldn't find anything my N7 could do that my iPad couldn't.

It might be able to do things in a more recognizable way (especially if you're a PC) but the iPad (with 600,000 apps - almost half of which are specifically written for the iPad) can do a lot of things people either don't realize or ignore because it requires a different program.

Kinda like saying "The iPad can't run MS Word" and taking that to me it doesn't do word processing/document creation. Well no, it can't run MS Word but it can run Pages, which in my experience is just as effective.

I understand, many people have certain programs they use and legitimately cannot switch from - but that doesn't mean the iPad doesn't have the capacity to do that task. There are also many tasks that are a preference to the user - and would therefore be a main reason to choose one platform over the other. But claiming the iPad is inferior based on your desire to mess around in the file system (when the way Apple runs file management behind the scenes is preferable to many people) shouldn't be an overall indictment on the iPad - simply that you prefer to be able to open the file system.

For which case you should buy a Surface ;)

----------

Interesting. We've moved 4 or so folks over at one of our clients and everyone else is clamoring to get it - everyone seems to love it.

Overall - the consensus from a lot of articles I read and from my buddies who work at BBY (based on their interactions with customers) is that Win8 isn't a huge success - rather too different from the standard windows and people are cautious of it.

I think on a large-scale Win8 will see a pretty slow adoption rate - but that's just my opinion based on my own research and readings.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 11:08 AM
Be careful with the "It can do a lot more than the iPad can" line. That has been said about Android for forever and I couldn't find anything my N7 could do that my iPad couldn't.

It might be able to do things in a more recognizable way (especially if you're a PC) but the iPad (with 600,000 apps - almost half of which are specifically written for the iPad) can do a lot of things people either don't realize or ignore because it requires a different program.

Kinda like saying "The iPad can't run MS Word" and taking that to me it doesn't do word processing/document creation. Well no, it can't run MS Word but it can run Pages, which in my experience is just as effective.

I understand, many people have certain programs they use and legitimately cannot switch from - but that doesn't mean the iPad doesn't have the capacity to do that task. There are also many tasks that are a preference to the user - and would therefore be a main reason to choose one platform over the other. But claiming the iPad is inferior based on your desire to mess around in the file system (when the way Apple runs file management behind the scenes is preferable to many people) shouldn't be an overall indictment on the iPad - simply that you prefer to be able to open the file system.

For which case you should buy a Surface ;)

----------



Overall - the consensus from a lot of articles I read and from my buddies who work at BBY (based on their interactions with customers) is that Win8 isn't a huge success - rather too different from the standard windows and people are cautious of it.

I think on a large-scale Win8 will see a pretty slow adoption rate - but that's just my opinion based on my own research and readings.

I have had every generation iPad, and trust me, there is a ton you can do on the Surface RT that you can't on the iPad. And I'm not just talking about apps, I'm talking about the entire approach, the hardware limitations, artificial software and access limitations, etc.

I think it's hilarious that people are passing judgment on Windows 8 72 hours after its release. Yes it's different. So was going to Intel chips and the fanbois cried foul over that one for a while too, but I rather think it was the right choice. Having had Windows 8 on my MBP for months I still didn't really get it until sitting down with the Surface - now it's starting to make sense. MS isn't as stupid as they seem sometimes.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 11:33 AM
I have had every generation iPad, and trust me, there is a ton you can do on the Surface RT that you can't on the iPad. And I'm not just talking about apps, I'm talking about the entire approach, the hardware limitations, artificial software and access limitations, etc.

I think it's hilarious that people are passing judgment on Windows 8 72 hours after its release. Yes it's different. So was going to Intel chips and the fanbois cried foul over that one for a while too, but I rather think it was the right choice. Having had Windows 8 on my MBP for months I still didn't really get it until sitting down with the Surface - now it's starting to make sense. MS isn't as stupid as they seem sometimes.

Those of us in the Tech industry have had Windows 8 RTM for weeks. It was released on MSDN and Technet quite a while back.

Also, if you need something to grow on you over a few days, then its probably not that good in the first place and you are settling. Many people do this to justify the money spent due to hype or what have you.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 11:42 AM
Those of us in the Tech industry have had Windows 8 RTM for weeks. It was released on MSDN and Technet quite a while back.

Also, if you need something to grow on you over a few days, then its probably not that good in the first place and you are settling. Many people do this to justify the money spent due to hype or what have you.

Yes, thanks for clearing that up - as I mentioned I've been running 8 and server 2012 for months. Who said anything about needing days for something to grow on you? The Surface was usable within minutes. I was talking about strategy, not the user experience.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 11:47 AM
Also, if you need something to grow on you over a few days, then its probably not that good in the first place and you are settling. Many people do this to justify the money spent due to hype or what have you.

Or it's different, and you come to appreciate it the more you use it. Either/or.

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 11:49 AM
Another incredible plus that I've been playing with all day is stylus input. I'm not what kind of input the Surface RT has (surface Pro will have a digitizer), but on my Samsung Ativ it has the S pen and a separate input digitizer for the pen. I've been editing and creating real documents with Word 2013 and it is freaking amazing. For reports I will normally sit and type, but for seminars I can see this thing being incredible for taking notes.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:37 PM
Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:40 PM
Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?

You need to be more specific as there are different answers IMO, since this thead is about the surface RT I'll assume you meant that. I'd say the only advantage is Office, otherwise I have to say you are right, why would anyone bother with RT, personally I think it was a huge mistake for RT to even exist out of the phone. Personally (note that means me) I think Office and stylus input are pretty huge advantages, but that's in my personal and business life.

But Surface Pro, and the full Windows 8 Pro devices are a different story. I'd be here forever describing what I can do on them that the ipad cannot do. But why make it a versus discussion? The ipad suits your needs so you are going to buy it and use it. I just never understood the vehemence some people put into telling others their choice is superior.

zhenya
Oct 29, 2012, 12:42 PM
Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?

Microsoft's tablet vision is a lot closer to a laptop than Apple's. There are not yet the volume of apps available that make RT a compelling choice, but it will get there. Right now some of the big advantages are things like nearly complete Office compatibility and real multi-tasking, which is still a royal pain on iOS. It should be a lot easier to do complex tasks on RT.

There are compelling things with the Surface, the big problem is that as these devices are refined, and especially as we move to the cloud, we become tethered to one particular ecosystem that makes it difficult to leave, no matter what the advantages of other platforms.

RenoG
Oct 29, 2012, 12:43 PM
The surface says to me, I'm not really a tablet, and don't call me a laptop.
This thing leaves me scratching my head because all I see is redundancy.

Why would I buy this over a Mac air or ultrabook?
Why would I buy this over an Ipad 3/4 or Android tablet?

I understand microsoft theory behind the surface and that is to provide the best of both worlds (tablet and laptop/ ultrabook) into one which is awesome in its self, but if I can't use it in practical ways like I can my ipad (on the plane, toilet, couch, laying on my back, on my lap) without it being cumbersome due to awkward size, with its "way better with touch keys", and not being as powerful as my laptop, then why spend my hard earned money on this thing and add more electronic clutter in my home.....

I am not a gadget whore. Microsoft I personally require better, something much much better. Go back and Design this thing in such a way that gives me a real option to truly replace my current tablet and or laptop with, then we can talk.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:44 PM
You need to be more specific as there are different answers IMO, since this thead is about the surface RT I'll assume you meant that. I'd say the only advantage is Office, otherwise I have to say you are right, why would anyone bother with RT, personally I think it was a huge mistake for RT to even exist out of the phone. Personally (note that means me) I think Office and stylus input are pretty huge advantages, but that's in my personal and business life.

But Surface Pro, and the full Windows 8 Pro devices are a different story. I'd be here forever describing what I can do on them that the ipad cannot do. But why make it a versus discussion? The ipad suits your needs so you are going to buy it and use it. I just never understood the vehemence some people put into telling others their choice is superior.

It's all subjective right? In the end choice is good.

j_maddison
Oct 29, 2012, 12:47 PM
Why exactly would someone choose the surface over the iPad? With IOS have capabilities that help in the real world. Examples - I can control the monitoring system in my home. Full control and monitoring. I can adjust my thermostat. Works with my car flawlessly. That's just a few. Is there anything worthwhile that the Surface can do that the iPad can't?

Someone mentioned that Apple is a wall gardened, yet they forget the fact that Microsoft copied that same Wall Garden. You guys are aware of the app approval process that Microsoft has right?

Everyone is going to be different, but for me it would be Office and form factor combined. It would work for me in a work environment far better than the iPad could. Sadly Office isn't where I'd need it to be, so it's a non starter.

As an all around device, I'd definitely chose the iPad. I don't consume a lot of content on the iPad, so I do find it bizarre when people say it's only a content consumption device.

The other thing that I've just thought about, and would possibly be a dominant reason for me to chose the Surface RT, would be the IT department. Sadly whether I like it or not, IT departments are mostly made up of people who dislike apple for illogical emotive reasons based on conjecture and the misguided belief that you can't like Microsoft and Apple at the same time. Therefore for you must hate Apple and just tell everyone that Apple stuff doesn't work, or can't connect to the network, or best still - causes a security problem. So from a sheer give me an easy life perspective, the Surface has benefits

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:52 PM
It's all subjective right? In the end choice is good.

Wait, you are sounding reasonable here. Nooooo :eek:

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:54 PM
Microsoft's tablet vision is a lot closer to a laptop than Apple's. There are not yet the volume of apps available that make RT a compelling choice, but it will get there. Right now some of the big advantages are things like nearly complete Office compatibility and real multi-tasking, which is still a royal pain on iOS. It should be a lot easier to do complex tasks on RT.

There are compelling things with the Surface, the big problem is that as these devices are refined, and especially as we move to the cloud, we become tethered to one particular ecosystem that makes it difficult to leave, no matter what the advantages of other platforms.

So really the only reason to buy the Surface at this point is for Microsoft Office. Also, from the app standpoint, you are buying a product now hoping that in the future things will get better. That's a lot of money spent on hope.

So again, just to clarify, people are spending $499-$599 to have Microsoft Office on a tablet. Anything else that you all find value in the surface?

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:57 PM
So really the only reason to buy the Surface at this point is for Microsoft Office. Also, from the app standpoint, you are buying a product now hoping that in the future things will get better. That's a lot of money spent on hope.

So again, just to clarify, people are spending $499-$599 to have Microsoft Office on a tablet. Anything else that you all find value in the surface?

Yes pretty much, Office. That's a pretty huge plus though in the corporate world. Plus everyone makes so much of the huge app store, but I'd be willing to bet there are a heck of a lot of users who only have a few apps installed, and/or that these apps if not already available on windows will eventually be available. Out of maybe a hundred apps I have purchased over the years theres not really anything I'm missing on Windows, either they have it, or I never really used it. There is so much redundancy and useless apps out there it's hard to put a number on truly useful, universal apps or apps which are must haves. Of course on WinPro the app argument gets soundly demolished.

zhenya
Oct 29, 2012, 12:59 PM
So really the only reason to buy the Surface at this point is for Microsoft Office. Also, from the app standpoint, you are buying a product now hoping that in the future things will get better. That's a lot of money spent on hope.

So again, just to clarify, people are spending $499-$599 to have Microsoft Office on a tablet. Anything else that you all find value in the surface?

You skipped over my other points in order to make yours. RT has a different multi-tasking method than iOS, including the ability to view apps side by side. That's, paired with a real keyboard will make doing complex tasks far easier.

I own a ton of Apple devices, and have an iPad 4 on the way, but there are definitely times that I get really frustrated at how difficult it is to do relatively simple things. I put up with that because 95% of the time I spend on the iPad I don't need to do that stuff, and the reliability and simplicity makes that a worthwhile tradeoff. I can certainly see the appeal of an alternative though.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 01:05 PM
Yes pretty much, Office. That's a pretty huge plus though in the corporate world. Plus everyone makes so much of the huge app store, but I'd be willing to bet there are a heck of a lot of users who only have a few apps installed, and/or that these apps if not already available on windows will eventually be available. Out of maybe a hundred apps I have purchased over the years theres not really anything I'm missing on Windows, either they have it, or I never really used it. There is so much redundancy and useless apps out there it's hard to put a number on truly useful, universal apps or apps which are must haves. Of course on WinPro the app argument gets soundly demolished.

WinPro kinda levels the playing field app wise but in a different nature. A good example of that would be the UPS app in IOS. Easy and intuitive. On WinPro8, I'd probably just have to bring up the website which is cool too but not the same.

Microsoft Office is huge in the corporate world. No point even disputing that. However, Microsoft already stated that Office would be released on other platforms in the near future. If thats the case, is there any need for Surface RT?

Surface Pro is a different animal. I'll leave that alone until its released.

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 01:08 PM
WinPro kinda levels the playing field app wise but in a different nature. A good example of that would be the UPS app in IOS. Easy and intuitive. On WinPro8, I'd probably just have to bring up the website which is cool too but not the same.

Microsoft Office is huge in the corporate world. No point even disputing that. However, Microsoft already stated that Office would be released on other platforms in the near future. If thats the case, is there any need for Surface RT?

Surface Pro is a different animal. I'll leave that alone until its released.

I can't argue much with you on RT, personally I just think it was a huge mistake and will end up hurting Microsoft. Some will buy them, but they will be a totally niche product. I don't get Microsoft sometimes, how much more obvious could it be?

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 01:09 PM
You skipped over my other points in order to make yours. RT has a different multi-tasking method than iOS, including the ability to view apps side by side. That's, paired with a real keyboard will make doing complex tasks far easier.

I own a ton of Apple devices, and have an iPad 4 on the way, but there are definitely times that I get really frustrated at how difficult it is to do relatively simple things. I put up with that because 95% of the time I spend on the iPad I don't need to do that stuff, and the reliability and simplicity makes that a worthwhile tradeoff. I can certainly see the appeal of an alternative though.

I left out the Multitasking because your comment on it surprised me. It's so easy to switch back and forth between application on IOS. What exactly is the issue here you are seeing? Surface can display multiple apps side by side? I have to check that out because I didn't think that was possible on Windows 8.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 01:10 PM
WinPro kinda levels the playing field app wise but in a different nature. A good example of that would be the UPS app in IOS. Easy and intuitive. On WinPro8, I'd probably just have to bring up the website which is cool too but not the same.

They have a universal package tracker app setting in the marketplace right now.

Microsoft Office is huge in the corporate world. No point even disputing that. However, Microsoft already stated that Office would be released on other platforms in the near future. If thats the case, is there any need for Surface RT?

If MS released Office for the iPad right now? Assuming it runs decently enough and offers up enough functionality there, then no, there aren't that many reasons to choose an RT. But I doubt they're going to give away their trump card so early in the game. By near future, they might mean 6-7 years from now, once MS has established itself in the mobile game, and can afford to risk earning some extra income by offering their products on the competitors platforms.

zhenya
Oct 29, 2012, 01:14 PM
I left out the Multitasking because your comment on it surprised me. It's so easy to switch back and forth between application on IOS. What exactly is the issue here you are seeing? Surface can display multiple apps side by side? I have to check that out because I didn't think that was possible on Windows 8.

Multi-tasking is great in iOS as concerns battery life. As concerns productivity, it sucks. Sometimes you really just need to see two things next to one another. Even on the iPad with gestures enabled, it's not the same thing to have to constantly leave your main window in order to attend to a chat, or to have to keep switching back and forth from a reference document. Not to mention the fact that the automatic memory management means that the data in the app you leave is always at risk of being wiped out, or that the app effectively has to re-start each time you leave and come back to it. I'm hopeful it will be much, much better with the power inside the iPad 4, but it's the general model that needs modernizing.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 01:15 PM
The other thing that I've just thought about, and would possibly be a dominant reason for me to chose the Surface RT, would be the IT department. Sadly whether I like it or not, IT departments are mostly made up of people who dislike apple for illogical emotive reasons based on conjecture and the misguided belief that you can't like Microsoft and Apple at the same time. Therefore for you must hate Apple and just tell everyone that Apple stuff doesn't work, or can't connect to the network, or best still - causes a security problem. So from a sheer give me an easy life perspective, the Surface has benefits

As someone who owns an IT services and support company, I don't think is necessarily true. I will say, however, that in my experience the vast majority of IT people are either technically inept, socially inept, or both - which can make the above certainly seem true in many cases.

That being said, there certainly are legitimate reasons why IT departments would choose not to deploy OS X in the enterprise - it's an absolute nightmare to try and support. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they know their market and their legacy support is impressive, especially given the amount of 3rd party integration they have to deal with. Apple doesn't have to do that, and their legacy support is, well, pretty much nonexistent. Not only that, but they change things around constantly without documenting the changes (google is also notorious for this). Ever tried to get and keep OS X connected to a DFS share? Nightmare. They finally fixed it in 10.6.8 only to kill the performance. So you can use it, but you have to wait 2 minutes every time you click on something lol. It goes on and on.

iOS is a different story, however. The iPhone and iPad are actually our recommended activesync devices and have been ever since iOS4. Being a religious zealot about tech is ridiculous, as are many of the fanbois we've seen in these Surface threads spouting the silliest criticisms - all of which applied to Apple a few years ago with rev1 of the iPad. Choice is good. Competition is good.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 01:18 PM
They have a universal package tracker app setting in the marketplace right now.



If MS released Office for the iPad right now? Assuming it runs decently enough and offers up enough functionality there, then no, there aren't that many reasons to choose an RT. But I doubt they're going to give away their trump card so early in the game. By near future, they might mean 6-7 years from now, once MS has established itself in the mobile game, and can afford to risk earning some extra income by offering their products on the competitors platforms.

I think I read somewhere that sometime next year the suite will be released for IOS. Possibly Q1 or Q2.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/microsofts-czech-unit-reportedly-confirms-office-for-ios-coming-in-march-2013/

Take that link with a grain of salt. although the image looks legit.....

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 01:23 PM
I think I read somewhere that sometime next year the suite will be released for IOS. Possibly Q1 or Q2.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/microsofts-czech-unit-reportedly-confirms-office-for-ios-coming-in-march-2013/

Take that link with a grain of salt. although the image looks legit.....

Yes it's been ready for some time. MS has been sitting on it in anticipation of their tablet releases. They will release it eventually because Office is their cash cow and it will make them a ton on iOS - but they need to try and establish their own ecosystem a little bit first.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 01:39 PM
I think I read somewhere that sometime next year the suite will be released for IOS. Possibly Q1 or Q2.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/10/microsofts-czech-unit-reportedly-confirms-office-for-ios-coming-in-march-2013/

Take that link with a grain of salt. although the image looks legit.....

Yeah, it's using the old Office logo, but it does look pretty convincing.

It's possible what we're seeing is a sort of Office Lite style app for the iPad that could be used for viewing various documents rather than the entire suite itself. Something that's more supplementary than fully functional.

Doing anything more would be dense. As. Hell on MS' part. They've done some boneheaded stuff in the past, but I just can't believe they'd dump tons of time and cash into producing a great alternative to the iPad, then taking it out back and putting it down like 'ole Yeller not even 6 months later by releasing the biggest (current) draw to the platform elsewhere. It'd be...just...duummmmbbb.

j_maddison
Oct 29, 2012, 01:54 PM
As someone who owns an IT services and support company, I don't think is necessarily true. I will say, however, that in my experience the vast majority of IT people are either technically inept, socially inept, or both - which can make the above certainly seem true in many cases.

That being said, there certainly are legitimate reasons why IT departments would choose not to deploy OS X in the enterprise - it's an absolute nightmare to try and support. Say what you will about Microsoft, but they know their market and their legacy support is impressive, especially given the amount of 3rd party integration they have to deal with. Apple doesn't have to do that, and their legacy support is, well, pretty much nonexistent. Not only that, but they change things around constantly without documenting the changes (google is also notorious for this). Ever tried to get and keep OS X connected to a DFS share? Nightmare. They finally fixed it in 10.6.8 only to kill the performance. So you can use it, but you have to wait 2 minutes every time you click on something lol. It goes on and on.

iOS is a different story, however. The iPhone and iPad are actually our recommended activesync devices and have been ever since iOS4. Being a religious zealot about tech is ridiculous, as are many of the fanbois we've seen in these Surface threads spouting the silliest criticisms - all of which applied to Apple a few years ago with rev1 of the iPad. Choice is good. Competition is good.

I appreciate your points, and my job is to sell communications solutions into IT mangers. So I recognise what you are saying, and I do get it.

My bug has always been when you do come across people who legitimately just say a Mac won't do something with no knowledge of the OS.

I use my laptop, unsupported, and as most apps these days are web based it works fine. I VPN in using a Junos client, and use Mail, calendar, and address book as my Outlook alternatives. I genuinely wish Outlook on the Mac was better, but in it's current guise I prefer the native apps from Apple. And for the single programme I use that there is no mac alternative, I use VM Ware and windows 7.

The only issue I've come across is a VB problem in excel, as I'm unsupported though I just have to live with the fact it doesn't work, which does kinda suck.

But very valid points that you bring up.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 01:57 PM
I appreciate your points, and my job is to sell communications solutions into IT mangers. So I recognise what you are saying, and I do get it.

My bug has always been when you do come across people who legitimately just say a Mac won't do something with no knowledge of the OS.

I use my laptop, unsupported, and as most apps these days are web based it works fine. I VPN in using a Junos client, and use Mail, calendar, and address book as my Outlook alternatives. I genuinely wish Outlook on the Mac was better, but in it's current guise I prefer the native apps from Apple. And for the single programme I use that there is no mac alternative, I use VM Ware and windows 7.

The only issue I've come across is a VB problem in excel, as I'm unsupported though I just have to live with the fact it doesn't work, which does kinda suck.

But very valid points that you bring up.

Yes, I also wish Outlook 2011 was better - I have a feeling what's coming next will bring pretty close parity. It's also nice having a full blown Lync client for Mac now too.

jrswizzle
Oct 29, 2012, 02:02 PM
I have had every generation iPad, and trust me, there is a ton you can do on the Surface RT that you can't on the iPad. And I'm not just talking about apps, I'm talking about the entire approach, the hardware limitations, artificial software and access limitations, etc.

I think it's hilarious that people are passing judgment on Windows 8 72 hours after its release. Yes it's different. So was going to Intel chips and the fanbois cried foul over that one for a while too, but I rather think it was the right choice. Having had Windows 8 on my MBP for months I still didn't really get it until sitting down with the Surface - now it's starting to make sense. MS isn't as stupid as they seem sometimes.

Remind me of all these great things I can't do with my iPad? Be specific please....

Just so you know I'm expecting a lot of technical stuff a vast majority of the industry wouldn't even know about - I'm not saying Win8 RT/Surface RT doesn't have its place, just saying I don't think its as vastly marketable and won't be as widely popular as iOS/iPad because there really isn't anything you can't do on the iPad.

Again - feel free to be specific. As I never ran across these mythical uses for my N7 I'd be interested to hear this from the Win8 side.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 02:09 PM
Remind me of all these great things I can't do with my iPad? Be specific please....

Office? Being able to type up a document or read a webpage while having your email and twitter pinned to the side while you read a webpage or type a document so you don't have to switch between fullscreen apps to get your updates?

Listen, I don't think the Surface is an absolute iPad killer. Maybe one day, but right now it's more potential than actuality. What's already there is great, though it still has a long road ahead of it before it can match the iDevices on app selection, ecosystem, and all that excellent stuff.

So why buy one? There are enough compelling reasons to consider one over the iPad depending on what you intend on using it for. But the full package isn't quite there yet. It's still very much an office worker/early adopters platform.

jrswizzle
Oct 29, 2012, 02:19 PM
Office? Being able to type up a document or read a webpage while having your email and twitter pinned to the side while you read a webpage or type a document so you don't have to switch between fullscreen apps to get your updates?

Listen, I don't think the Surface is an absolute iPad killer. Maybe one day, but right now it's more potential than actuality. What's already there is great, though it still has a long road ahead of it before it can match the iDevices on app selection, ecosystem, and all that excellent stuff.

So why buy one? There are enough compelling reasons to consider one over the iPad depending on what you intend on using it for. But the full package isn't quite there yet. It's still very much an office worker/early adopters platform.

Sure - agree with most all of the post. I've already posted the multi-tasking is a very convenient feature. But Apple has it's own office suite just as powerful/useful as MS Office imo.

Plus if I get a twitter update I could have it push to notification center (which I don't) and view it from there without leaving the app. Same with email (which I do have push turned on). And while typing a document and researching would be useful at the same time, I don't really see how a four-finger swipe to the next app (say twitter) or a switch really hurts as you cant read twitter AND look at a webpage at the same time - unless each eye moves independently....

I dunno - my use case is relatively basic, albeit constant in that I ALWAYS have my iPad with me. I've never wished I could watch a video with my twitter feed up because a) it takes away screen space from an already small screen - generally speaking and b) if I'm watching a movie/video, I'm watching a movie/video. Don't really look to distract myself with twitter - and it I wanna check twitter, I won't do it while watching a video. Unless of course I'm vegging out in front of the TV and have my iPad in hand.

Black Magic
Oct 29, 2012, 03:16 PM
Sure - agree with most all of the post. I've already posted the multi-tasking is a very convenient feature. But Apple has it's own office suite just as powerful/useful as MS Office imo.

Plus if I get a twitter update I could have it push to notification center (which I don't) and view it from there without leaving the app. Same with email (which I do have push turned on). And while typing a document and researching would be useful at the same time, I don't really see how a four-finger swipe to the next app (say twitter) or a switch really hurts as you cant read twitter AND look at a webpage at the same time - unless each eye moves independently....

I dunno - my use case is relatively basic, albeit constant in that I ALWAYS have my iPad with me. I've never wished I could watch a video with my twitter feed up because a) it takes away screen space from an already small screen - generally speaking and b) if I'm watching a movie/video, I'm watching a movie/video. Don't really look to distract myself with twitter - and it I wanna check twitter, I won't do it while watching a video. Unless of course I'm vegging out in front of the TV and have my iPad in hand.

Damn, you making me want to run out an buy an iPad. :)

jrswizzle
Oct 29, 2012, 04:06 PM
Damn, you making me want to run out an buy an iPad. :)

/sarcasm?

lol I couldn't tell....all I know is the iPad works fantastically for my use case (and so far most consumers' use cases as well). I have very much enjoyed my iPad experience and I've really noticed it this week as I sold my 3 last week to upgrade to the 4 (long story short, planned on switching up my mobile device lineup and was looking at going to a WiFi only iPad - regardless of the announcement - to use at home for most things and on the road for movie watching while my iPad mini will be LTE compatible for on-the-go, everyday use.)

I don't own a laptop and everything I would do on it (or on my iMac for that matter) I can do on my iPad - except play SC2....but that's probably for the best.

madmaxmedia
Oct 29, 2012, 05:24 PM
Could they not have made the cheaper Surface with the new Intel Atom instead of ARM? (it's in the new Motorola RAZR i, runs at 2GHz, and seems to benchmark reasonably well compared to the ARM versions of the RAZR.)

Such a tablet would have similar price and form factor as the RT Surface, but actually have desktop application compatibility. Okay maybe not a lot of heavy lifting, but it would have compatibility.

Maybe the Intel CPU is not as good, but at least there's a point to using it here, unlike in a Motorola Android phone.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 05:27 PM
I'd say it's because the decent Atom chips didn't come out until well into the Surfaces development.

madmaxmedia
Oct 29, 2012, 05:29 PM
Yeah, possibly the timeline didn't match up. But that would have been a big plus for the Surface- if you're going to have a full Windows 8 OS with desktop, may as well get a CPU that is x86 compatible to go with it.

I found a mention of this-

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review/10

Apparently Atom-based Surface tablets are coming out. I'm not getting a Surface anyway, but it would have been more intriguing to me if it was x86 compatible. But hey, I use a MBP anyway- ;)

iTurnip
Oct 29, 2012, 10:22 PM
I wanted an iPad but I couldn't justify the price tag as it didn't replace the need for a laptop for work purposes when I traveled. It would have been just an expensive toy. The surface allows me to leave my laptop at home as I can access Word and PowerPoint, crucial as a scientist at conferences. So far it has been brilliant. It's intuitive, I can use my portable hard drive via the usb port and the key board is ingenious and very effective. I can type almost as fast as I can on a normal keyboard. I use it as a tablet for playing games and messing around on the net in front of the tv, and as a laptop for editing documents and taking notes at meetings. Only had it 3 days and I love it. Would definitely recommend it if you want to use a tablet for both work and play. The surface would have made my life very easy as a student

j_maddison
Oct 30, 2012, 02:36 AM
I wanted an iPad but I couldn't justify the price tag as it didn't replace the need for a laptop for work purposes when I traveled. It would have been just an expensive toy. The surface allows me to leave my laptop at home as I can access Word and PowerPoint, crucial as a scientist at conferences. So far it has been brilliant. It's intuitive, I can use my portable hard drive via the usb port and the key board is ingenious and very effective. I can type almost as fast as I can on a normal keyboard. I use it as a tablet for playing games and messing around on the net in front of the tv, and as a laptop for editing documents and taking notes at meetings. Only had it 3 days and I love it. Would definitely recommend it if you want to use a tablet for both work and play. The surface would have made my life very easy as a student

While I appreciate you've mentioned a number of reasons over and above what mi about to mention, as why a Surface is a better choice for our over an iPad, there was something you mentioned that I've seen brought up in other reviews as an advantage the Surface has over the iPad. That advantage is the touch cover and type cover.

What I don't understand with the comparison is that the touch and type covers are covers, and the iPad has had these from its inception. While I appreciate Microsoft taking the design to a new level, it doesn't introduce anything new that couldn't be done on the iPad. So I wonder if people simply didn't know you could get similar keyboard covers for the iPad?

I've used my iPad many a time to write notes, write a lengthy word processed document etc on. It's terrible for attempting to input into a spreadsheet with any level of speed or fluidity mind. But as a device to use as a word processor (Ms Word replacement) it's absolutely fine, with options over and above pages. I've also used the iPad to create and deliver presentations from scratch.

spinedoc77
Oct 30, 2012, 07:39 AM
While I appreciate you've mentioned a number of reasons over and above what mi about to mention, as why a Surface is a better choice for our over an iPad, there was something you mentioned that I've seen brought up in other reviews as an advantage the Surface has over the iPad. That advantage is the touch cover and type cover.

What I don't understand with the comparison is that the touch and type covers are covers, and the iPad has had these from its inception. While I appreciate Microsoft taking the design to a new level, it doesn't introduce anything new that couldn't be done on the iPad. So I wonder if people simply didn't know you could get similar keyboard covers for the iPad?

I've used my iPad many a time to write notes, write a lengthy word processed document etc on. It's terrible for attempting to input into a spreadsheet with any level of speed or fluidity mind. But as a device to use as a word processor (Ms Word replacement) it's absolutely fine, with options over and above pages. I've also used the iPad to create and deliver presentations from scratch.

But if you take that line of reasoning then you could say you don't understand the comparison between pre-ipad tablets and the ipad, they are both tablets. The point I'm trying to make is that MS didn't invent the tablet keyboard, but they refined it to be very thin yet very functional. To this day I don't know of a similar keyboard for the ipad, they seem quite bulky to me.

j_maddison
Oct 30, 2012, 07:47 AM
But if you take that line of reasoning then you could say you don't understand the comparison between pre-ipad tablets and the ipad, they are both tablets. The point I'm trying to make is that MS didn't invent the tablet keyboard, but they refined it to be very thin yet very functional. To this day I don't know of a similar keyboard for the ipad, they seem quite bulky to me.

That's a fair point. The keyboard is a thing of beauty, something you'd expect from Apple usually. I get what you're saying

The third party ones will add bulk and weight.

For touch typists a keyboard is invaluable too. It will be interesting when MS overcome some of the limitations of the touch cover.

iTurnip
Oct 30, 2012, 10:39 AM
I've used my iPad many a time to write notes, write a lengthy word processed document etc on. It's terrible for attempting to input into a spreadsheet with any level of speed or fluidity mind. But as a device to use as a word processor (Ms Word replacement) it's absolutely fine, with options over and above pages. I've also used the iPad to create and deliver presentations from scratch.

Sure you could do these things on the ipad but in reality it would be a hassle and office is seamlessly integrated into the surface in intuitive and easy to use fashion. Isn’t that why we buy apple products because of their ease of use? I use office on my mac (as do my colleagues) and I want to continue using this platform on my tablet for an easy transition between devices. This is what apple does well, take technology that already exists and integrates it into their products in a way that makes them easier to use and nobody would complain about that. Sure you have been able to take panoramic photos on an android device for a long time now, but it wasn't as easy to use as it is on the iphone5. This is essentially what the surface has achieved with its keyboard and office suite.

j_maddison
Oct 30, 2012, 12:13 PM
Sure you could do these things on the ipad but in reality it would be a hassle and office is seamlessly integrated into the surface in intuitive and easy to use fashion. Isn’t that why we buy apple products because of their ease of use? I use office on my mac (as do my colleagues) and I want to continue using this platform on my tablet for an easy transition between devices. This is what apple does well, take technology that already exists and integrates it into their products in a way that makes them easier to use and nobody would complain about that. Sure you have been able to take panoramic photos on an android device for a long time now, but it wasn't as easy to use as it is on the iphone5. This is essentially what the surface has achieved with its keyboard and office suite.

It depends what you're doing with office. If as in my example you're doing some light word processing, it doesn't matter what you're using. If you're using basic formulas on a spreadsheet, again it doesn't matter what you're using. Just save it as a word or excel file and it's seamless anyway.

It depends if you're talking about interoperability between features that are only present in that particular app, or if you're talking about logo matching? If it's the former, valid point, but more often than not when it comes to word processing in the work place, I find it's the latter

Pretty much every Word processor and spreadsheet app will open an MS office file and save to it.

Black Magic
Oct 30, 2012, 01:08 PM
So my buddy brought his Surface RT to lunch with us and I got to try it out. It's not bad and it actually seems quite usable for the most part. Things that turned me off:

1. He bought the 32GB version. Windows 8 RT OS takes up almost have of the 32GB.

2. Portrait mode sucks on that device. You see very little content and will be scrolling forever.

3. VPN capability = none.

4. Wall Garden Microsoft style. You are stuck using Internet Explorer and their mail app.

5. Not too many apps.

What I did like:

Windows 8 RT seems to shine on a touch device.

1. Multitasking was cool.
2. Nice bright colorful screen.
3. Not that heavy. Seemed very portable.
4. USB ports.

I could see my self being some what productive on this device. Would I buy one? No. I think its a nice first start by Microsoft.

----------

/sarcasm?

lol I couldn't tell....all I know is the iPad works fantastically for my use case (and so far most consumers' use cases as well). I have very much enjoyed my iPad experience and I've really noticed it this week as I sold my 3 last week to upgrade to the 4 (long story short, planned on switching up my mobile device lineup and was looking at going to a WiFi only iPad - regardless of the announcement - to use at home for most things and on the road for movie watching while my iPad mini will be LTE compatible for on-the-go, everyday use.)

I don't own a laptop and everything I would do on it (or on my iMac for that matter) I can do on my iPad - except play SC2....but that's probably for the best.

No sarcasm. I thought you presented strong arguments for the iPad. :)

jrswizzle
Oct 30, 2012, 01:14 PM
No sarcasm. I thought you presented strong arguments for the iPad. :)

Well thank you :cool:

I do try to present logical arguments based on my personal experiences and research (of which I do a lot). I've never been upset with an Apple purchase - used to complain about my dell laptops all the time. Was the best decision I ever made (and subsequently got my entire family to make) to switch to a Mac, which in turn led to iPhones and iPads. Wonderful experiences both with the devices and with customer service (the few times I've needed them).

IMO - you buy the ecosystem, and there isn't a better one out there than Apple.

iTurnip
Oct 30, 2012, 01:43 PM
So my buddy brought his Surface RT to lunch with us and I got to try it out. It's not bad and it actually seems quite usable for the most part. Things that turned me off:

1. He bought the 32GB version. Windows 8 RT OS takes up almost have of the 32GB.

2. Portrait mode sucks on that device. You see very little content and will be scrolling forever.

3. VPN capability = none.

4. Wall Garden Microsoft style. You are stuck using Internet Explorer and their mail app.

5. Not too many apps.



----------

[/COLOR]



Sorry but as a surface owner I disagree with your negtive points.

1. Storage is not an issue as you can use USB storage or insert a 64gb Micro SD card.

2. I see your point but am willing to sacrifice this for movies in the correct aspect ratio

3. I Live in the USA and use a VPN on the surface to access British content. I had no difficulty in using the VPN so I don't know why your friend is struggling.

4. I agree and don't like to be pigeon holed on any device whether it be Apple or microsoft.

5. With microsoft offering 80% of profit to App developers it's only a matter of time before developers take advantage of the huge windows 8 market.

zhenya
Oct 30, 2012, 02:10 PM
2. I see your point but am willing to sacrifice this for movies in the correct aspect ratio


See, I just don't understand this. Why should movie playback (which takes up only a small fraction of time people spend on their tablets or computers) take precedent over EVERYTHING else that is done? Tablets and monitors are much more useful for reading and work even at 16:10 than at 16:9. I'll take a couple of black bars during a movie (that is displayed at the same size as if the screen were physically cropped) to gain extra working pixels the rest of the time.

Furthermore, 16:9 isn't even the correct aspect ratio for movies; it's the TV standard. How many people watch tv on their tablets?

iTurnip
Oct 30, 2012, 02:35 PM
How many people watch tv on their tablets?

I'm not being antagonistic here and I agree with you to some extent, but I watch most of my TV on a laptop or now my surface. I might be a special case though, as this is the only way I can watch my favourite shows from over the pond using my VPN (which I confirmed I could do before buying it). I'm sure the design of the keyboard and flip stand were important in determining the screen size and shape. Personally for me it's not a problem but if you are used to the ipad it might seem slightly odd.

Night Spring
Oct 30, 2012, 04:42 PM
1. Storage is not an issue as you can use USB storage or insert a 64gb Micro SD card.

I suppose that's true enough, but even with the capability of adding more storage, the OS taking up 16 GB seems excessive for a mobile OS.

On the issue of aspect ratio, I agree with zhenya. Watching movies and TV shows is not the main thing I do with my tablet, a majority of my time on the iPad is spent on reading text, either ebooks or the web. Obviously, that is not the preference for *everyone* -- some people will consider watching videos to be the more important activity they do with a tablet.

The question for device manufacturers, of course, is which group is larger, because by targeting the larger group, their device would sell better. Apple went for the text-centric group, most Android tablets for the video-centric one, and Surface is an interesting case, because if I'm understanding Microsoft's intentions properly, the length of the Surface was determined because that was the minimum length they needed to fit in a functional keyboard. Okay, so far so good, but then they picked a width such that it creates a narrow aspect ratio -- but why? If they had made the screen wider, then in turn they would have had room for a larger trackpad on the keyboard cover, which is something people have been saying is too small, not to mention that the Surface is supposed to be a productivity device, and if so, shouldn't you favor a text-centric aspect ratio?

I did drop by a Microsoft popup store on Sunday, and played with the Surface for a few minutes. The Touch Cover was pretty much a no-go, but I could type decently on the Type Cover, and if that had been around in the early days of my iPad usage, I might have been envious of it. But the thing is, in the two and half years I've been using my iPad, I've gotten used to using it without a physical keyboard, and by now, that's my preferred mode of using a tablet. Like right now, I'm sitting on my sofa and typing this with the iPad on my lap, switching between typing with all my fingers or typing with my thumbs as the mood strikes me. In order to use the Surface's keyboard cover, I'd have to find a place to prop it up -- I doubt I could type on the keyboard cover on my lap.

A Surface with a keyboard cover might be a good choice for someone looking for a super light lnotebook, and I'll be giving the Surface Pro a good look when it comes out. But IMO, it isn't a better tablet than the iPad and Android tablets already out there.

Renzatic
Oct 30, 2012, 04:49 PM
The reason MS chose a 16:9 aspect ratio is because of the multitasking aspect of the OS. Docking an app to the side of the would be too cramped on a 4:3 screen.

...though it'd be fine on a 16:10, which is what they should've gone with. While it's not terrible for the getting-work-done appeal MS is going for with the RT, 16:9 is a little too skinny.

aaronvan
Oct 30, 2012, 04:50 PM
I hope the surface will be successful. I have a feeling it may not be.

I hope it is as well. Apple needs good competition to keep innovating.

TheHateMachine
Oct 30, 2012, 05:29 PM
See, I just don't understand this. Why should movie playback (which takes up only a small fraction of time people spend on their tablets or computers) take precedent over EVERYTHING else that is done? Tablets and monitors are much more useful for reading and work even at 16:10 than at 16:9. I'll take a couple of black bars during a movie (that is displayed at the same size as if the screen were physically cropped) to gain extra working pixels the rest of the time.

Furthermore, 16:9 isn't even the correct aspect ratio for movies; it's the TV standard. How many people watch tv on their tablets?

It is kind of silly to say that only a small fraction of time is spent watching stuff. You do not know how people use their devices. Maybe that is how you use it but other people use things differently. Not trying to be rude but that is just a silly comment.

I suppose that's true enough, but even with the capability of adding more storage, the OS taking up 16 GB seems excessive for a mobile OS.

When I right click and select properties on my Windows folder on my Surface it is only 6.80 GB.

Renzatic
Oct 30, 2012, 05:50 PM
When I right click and select properties on my Windows folder on my Surface it is only 6.80 GB.

Counting it and Office, it's around 12GB.

TheHateMachine
Oct 30, 2012, 06:01 PM
Counting it and Office, it's around 12GB.

Are you sure?

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review/6

http://cdn.overclock.net/8/83/83d646d0_Microsoft_Surface_RT_Storage_Space.png

**Thanks for editing that for me maflynn, wasn't sure on how to thumbnail it!**

zhenya
Oct 30, 2012, 06:33 PM
It is kind of silly to say that only a small fraction of time is spent watching stuff. You do not know how people use their devices. Maybe that is how you use it but other people use things differently. Not trying to be rude but that is just a silly comment.


You have to take that assumption on a macro level rather than as an individual. I don't know what the actual studies would say, if there have been studies done, but from the way I see people interact with them, I would say that people as a whole don't spend the majority of the time watching video content. There will always be the exception, but the exceptions don't matter so much; you are designing for the bulk in the middle.

My feeling is that widescreen became a fad like 'HD' and most companies just move to the flow of whatever is the easiest. People will buy 'HD' panels and the glass manufacturers give discounts for buying the most common sizes, so we ended up with a flurry of narrow panels. It's taken a while, but consumers are beginning to wake up to the reality that these aren't optimized for consumption.

Renzatic
Oct 30, 2012, 06:42 PM
Are you sure?

Well hell. Not now. Where did the 12GB install size rumor come from then?

It's taken a while, but consumers are beginning to wake up to the reality that these aren't optimized for consumption.

I still say 16:10 is the happy medium. It's not so wide you feel stupid holding it up in portrait mode, but wide enough to fit in enough interface bling for heavier applications without obscuring what you're working on.

zhenya
Oct 30, 2012, 07:12 PM
I still say 16:10 is the happy medium. It's not so wide you feel stupid holding it up in portrait mode, but wide enough to fit in enough interface bling for heavier applications without obscuring what you're working on.

4:3 still gives you the most pixels in a given resolution range.

It's been years since you could buy quality panels in that format though (unless you are Apple) so I buy 16:10 whenever possible.

coldmack
Oct 30, 2012, 09:22 PM
4:3 still gives you the most pixels in a given resolution range.

It's been years since you could buy quality panels in that format though (unless you are Apple) so I buy 16:10 whenever possible.
Except, most pro and business users prefer 16:10 for their tablet, which is why HP Elitebook business tablet still 16:10. Most of the reason going to 16:9 is because it cost less to make/use, and consumers like it better for watching video.

j_maddison
Oct 30, 2012, 09:27 PM
I hope it is as well. Apple needs good competition to keep innovating.

Absolutely.

From everything I'm reading, I think MS has a fantastic UI concept for a tablet but they're falling down because they're reluctant to accept that the tablet market is a third market that sits in between. They're looking for it to replace the laptop/ desktop market. Where for some people they're always going to need both.

Maybe one day the RT Pro concept will be the way to go, but the battery life and the lack of push, means we're not there yet. As a result they've crippled RT by trying to keep an artificial divide between consumer/ student and worker, where at present fr my self at least, I need two devices. I could probably get away with one if RT offered more powerful features in the applications. The CPU and graphics capabilities are far less relevant to my work, than battery life and form factor are.

Exciting times ahead though I think, and probably some frustrating time too while the market works out what it's trying to achieve and the tech catches up.

Black Magic
Oct 31, 2012, 01:40 AM
Well hell. Not now. Where did the 12GB install size rumor come from then?


My friend did state and show that he only had 19GB free on his 32GB device. He didn't have much if anything really installed. I was kinda shocked.

----------

Sorry but as a surface owner I disagree with your negtive points.

1. Storage is not an issue as you can use USB storage or insert a 64gb Micro SD card.

2. I see your point but am willing to sacrifice this for movies in the correct aspect ratio

3. I Live in the USA and use a VPN on the surface to access British content. I had no difficulty in using the VPN so I don't know why your friend is struggling.

4. I agree and don't like to be pigeon holed on any device whether it be Apple or microsoft.

5. With microsoft offering 80% of profit to App developers it's only a matter of time before developers take advantage of the huge windows 8 market.


Point #1 should still be an issue because you have the inconvenience of buying a third party device to fill the need. Plus you have to add to the overall cost of the device.

On point #3, he couldn't get it going but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't put much effort into getting VPN going.

On point #5, you purchased the device with HOPE that app support will come. The Windows Phone 7 consumers are still hoping too. :)

It is a cool device overall and I would probably buy that over an Android tablet. Maybe.

Jibbajabba
Oct 31, 2012, 01:56 AM
If you want a real review, go to www.anandtech.com

The RT is great. No apps? Hmm mine seemed to come with a few that seem rather useful... Little no-names like Word, Excel, Powerpoint... Between those, IE/Mail/Calendar/Contacts, and Lync RT I can do everything I used to do on my iPad and about 10x more.

Wish the resolution was higher (Pro will have 1920x1080) but elements still look very good. Type/touch covers are impressive. RDP/citrix work great.

With the unrestricted USB port this could easily be a full time computing device for a student and many other scenarios as well.

Apart from the fact the RT does not let you install your own apps - you rely on the App Store for apps to be released.

charlieegan3
Oct 31, 2012, 03:42 AM
I hope it is as well. Apple needs good competition to keep innovating.

Apple needs good competition to start innovating again.

zhenya
Oct 31, 2012, 07:35 AM
Except, most pro and business users prefer 16:10 for their tablet, which is why HP Elitebook business tablet still 16:10. Most of the reason going to 16:9 is because it cost less to make/use, and consumers like it better for watching video.

Huh? The iPad is the first tablet to see wide adoption into the corporate market, and it's 4:3.

Consumers by and large just buy whatever is cheapest and don't put too much thought into the fact that they are getting less screen with 16:9 panels.

MacRumorUser
Oct 31, 2012, 09:38 AM
Not the greatest review for the device to be honest, but one that is at least fair and unbiased (or at least seemingly so).

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-surface-rt-review


Surface RT: the Digital Foundry verdict


To challenge Apple's supremacy in the tablet marketplace, Microsoft had to come up with something really special - either a product that comprehensively outperforms the current market leader, or else offer exclusive, must-have functionality. On the latter point, Surface should have been a slum-dunk - a brand new OS, the ability to access pretty much all of your USB hardware with zero hassle, plus of course Windows and Office installed by default. Exclusive features that could have been genuine game-changers. In combination with Tegra 3's gaming power, the overall package could have been a winner.

The sobering reality is that Surface is a disappointment on almost every level. Game performance is wildly off-pace compared to the competition, the Windows desktop has barely any actual functionality aside from accessing Office, and, in terms of Word at least, the product should never have shipped in this state. It's described as a pre-release version that will be updated for free once it is ready, but for such an important element of the package to feature such a grim user experience at launch is unforgivable.

So is the Surface RT a nuclear disaster of a product with no redeeming features whatsoever? Not quite - clearly, there is some potential here. The Metro UI works really nicely, offering up a classy, visually rich alternative to iOS and Android with the context-sensitive icons and the "swipe from the sides" access for additional functions just two little elements that work really well. But a £400 tablet cannot be recommended on the basis of a collection of neat features, a nice UI and a decent browser. We wanted Surface to be the product that would render our laptop obsolete, while offering competitive gaming performance to the iPad. On both counts, Surface fails badly: Windows is hobbled, Office doesn't entirely work properly in its current form, and it seems as if games are crying out for more horsepower.

Surface RT's many failings may make the upcoming Pro model with the Core i5 processor and full-fat Windows 8 an even more desirable proposition, but in the all-important £400 price range Apple has absolutely nothing to worry about from this lacklustre challenger.

Jinzen
Oct 31, 2012, 09:50 AM
Have one, its going back.

Sucks: flash doesn't work in most good sites. Defeats the point of a laptop replacement.

RT is just bad in many ways. Really substandard browsing experience and even default apps are a poor experience.

No apps. Kindle is unusable.

Auto brightness is unusable.

Sluggish performance in everything except System UI.

The Verge's own Surface review won't load on the device without it hanging halfway.

It's a compromise in every way that makes me rather use another laptop or tablet in any given scenario than use the Surface.

spinedoc77
Oct 31, 2012, 10:51 AM
but they're falling down because they're reluctant to accept that the tablet market is a third market that sits in between. They're looking for it to replace the laptop/ desktop market. Where for some people they're always going to need both.



I think the opposite, it's this strategy that will give them some strong market share IMO. The tablet market should NOT be a third market, it is because Apple created it with a new watered down OS. Windows Pro devices will take away the need to have a third market. When you say people need both, what's "both"? A tablet and a PC right. I don't see why there is so much reluctance to accept a device that gives you BOTH of these, why some people are so dead set on having 2 devices.

The best analogy IMO is laptops. Did we see this same argument when laptops were invented? Did we assume we needed a watered down OS to run laptops? Did the evolution of laptops eventually lead us to an iOS like OS on laptops? No it didn't, laptops started with and evolved to have full OS on them. Granted laptops were very expensive and less consumer oriented and more business oriented when they came out, but they filtered very quickly to the average consumer. iOS IMO was a necessity when the hardware just didn't keep up with the software, or at lease I'm assuming that 3 years ago Apple could not have made a proper OSx tablet and still make a profit, but that's just pure assumption. Whatever hardware constraints forced us into this "third tablet market" now do not exist and we can have our cake and eat it too.

Lindenhurst
Oct 31, 2012, 10:54 AM
Apple needs good competition to start innovating again.

This...

zhenya
Oct 31, 2012, 11:11 AM
I think the opposite, it's this strategy that will give them some strong market share IMO. The tablet market should NOT be a third market, it is because Apple created it with a new watered down OS. Windows Pro devices will take away the need to have a third market. When you say people need both, what's "both"? A tablet and a PC right. I don't see why there is so much reluctance to accept a device that gives you BOTH of these, why some people are so dead set on having 2 devices.

The best analogy IMO is laptops. Did we see this same argument when laptops were invented? Did we assume we needed a watered down OS to run laptops? Did the evolution of laptops eventually lead us to an iOS like OS on laptops? No it didn't, laptops started with and evolved to have full OS on them. Granted laptops were very expensive and less consumer oriented and more business oriented when they came out, but they filtered very quickly to the average consumer. iOS IMO was a necessity when the hardware just didn't keep up with the software, or at lease I'm assuming that 3 years ago Apple could not have made a proper OSx tablet and still make a profit, but that's just pure assumption. Whatever hardware constraints forced us into this "third tablet market" now do not exist and we can have our cake and eat it too.

I know we disagree on this issue to some degree, so this is more for conversation's sake than anything.

Anyhow, I think that to some extent people do want one device, but they want no compromises in either hardware or software. This is the first year that the hardware is starting to get close to that reality; if my laptop screen can contain the entire computer and only dock to the keyboard as necessary, that's a new paradigm that people might be willing to accept.

The problem is, hardware is only 1/2 of the equation. As I've said here before, until the software is as simple and reliable as it is on iOS and Android, people will still want tablet 'appliances' that are always on, always ready.

The other thing is I'm not sure merging the form factor is really the way to go. I'm ok with a laptop and a tablet right now because a 10" laptop is too small for work, and a 14" laptop is too big for portability. I think tablets will eventually settle in at that 7-10" range for use on the go and around the house and people will still keep larger laptops and desktops to do work on. There is a huge difference between a 10.6" tablet and a 7" one, just like there is a huge difference between working on a 10.6" screen and a 14" one.

As an aside, what kind of standby life are you getting out of that Samsung? ie. when you put it to sleep (or whatever 'instant-on mode it has) overnight, how much battery do you lose. This is where Windows has been very poor in the past as storing the system state in RAM takes 1-2watts which means ~1-2 days of standby time max.

spinedoc77
Oct 31, 2012, 11:41 AM
I know we disagree on this issue to some degree, so this is more for conversation's sake than anything.

Anyhow, I think that to some extent people do want one device, but they want no compromises in either hardware or software. This is the first year that the hardware is starting to get close to that reality; if my laptop screen can contain the entire computer and only dock to the keyboard as necessary, that's a new paradigm that people might be willing to accept.

The problem is, hardware is only 1/2 of the equation. As I've said here before, until the software is as simple and reliable as it is on iOS and Android, people will still want tablet 'appliances' that are always on, always ready.

The other thing is I'm not sure merging the form factor is really the way to go. I'm ok with a laptop and a tablet right now because a 10" laptop is too small for work, and a 14" laptop is too big for portability. I think tablets will eventually settle in at that 7-10" range for use on the go and around the house and people will still keep larger laptops and desktops to do work on. There is a huge difference between a 10.6" tablet and a 7" one, just like there is a huge difference between working on a 10.6" screen and a 14" one.

As an aside, what kind of standby life are you getting out of that Samsung? ie. when you put it to sleep (or whatever 'instant-on mode it has) overnight, how much battery do you lose. This is where Windows has been very poor in the past as storing the system state in RAM takes 1-2watts which means ~1-2 days of standby time max.

You bring up some great points. I can't say that Microsoft has achieved all of these goals currently, and my fear is that they are wasting their first impression. This is not in relation to RT, I don't shy away from saying RT is a mistake exactly because there strategy should be to unify tablets and laptops. As for my Samsung, in all honesty I am getting mixed feelings about it and Windows Pro on an Atom CPU. It's incredibly amazing to have windows on a tablet, I can't even describe it, it makes you realize just how lacking and completely underpowered iOS is. But at the same time the Atom CPU isn't exactly inspiring a huge amount of confidence in my daily use.

You have good points about the fact that some will still need a laptop and a tablet due to the screen sizes, but IMO there is no reason BOTH cannot have a full OS, ie: I don't see the reason for iOS to even exist anymore. Just because Tablets become ubiquitous does not mean laptops will become extinct, just as when laptops became commonplace it didn't mean desktops disappeared.

As far as battery life my Samsung has completely amazed me. I can literally leave it turned on with 75% brightness, even if I walk away I don't bother to turn it off most of the time. I can easily use it all day, and I mean a solid 12 hours, not continuously but very often, and it will still have 40% at the end of the day. Yesterday I installed a ton of stuff on it, Photoshop elements, CorelDraw, sketchpad, and I played with it for a long time, just downloading and installing these programs took a while and these are CPU/battery intensive activites (btw pressure sensitivity and a stylus in photoshop is freakin awesome) and even after this at 10pm I still have 25% battery left. As for standby I'm not sure, but I thought I read somewhere that the Atom CPUs got 3 weeks of standby. On any account if I hit the power switch I don't find any battery use at all when I come back to it.

zhenya
Oct 31, 2012, 11:56 AM
As for my Samsung, in all honesty I am getting mixed feelings about it and Windows Pro on an Atom CPU. It's incredibly amazing to have windows on a tablet, I can't even describe it, it makes you realize just how lacking and completely underpowered iOS is. But at the same time the Atom CPU isn't exactly inspiring a huge amount of confidence in my daily use.


Good to hear about the battery life.

Can you expand on the above statement? I think that reviews updated over time are of far more value than only hearing back on the first day or two of ownership.

j_maddison
Oct 31, 2012, 12:08 PM
I think the opposite, it's this strategy that will give them some strong market share IMO. The tablet market should NOT be a third market, it is because Apple created it with a new watered down OS. Windows Pro devices will take away the need to have a third market. When you say people need both, what's "both"? A tablet and a PC right. I don't see why there is so much reluctance to accept a device that gives you BOTH of these, why some people are so dead set on having 2 devices.

The best analogy IMO is laptops. Did we see this same argument when laptops were invented? Did we assume we needed a watered down OS to run laptops? Did the evolution of laptops eventually lead us to an iOS like OS on laptops? No it didn't, laptops started with and evolved to have full OS on them. Granted laptops were very expensive and less consumer oriented and more business oriented when they came out, but they filtered very quickly to the average consumer. iOS IMO was a necessity when the hardware just didn't keep up with the software, or at lease I'm assuming that 3 years ago Apple could not have made a proper OSx tablet and still make a profit, but that's just pure assumption. Whatever hardware constraints forced us into this "third tablet market" now do not exist and we can have our cake and eat it too.

I respect your view, and our views to some extent will be coloured (UK spelling) on by what we use the devices for our selves.

I see where your coming from, especially regarding Surface pro, because I share your view there. Where I differ is I think there will always need to be a third market, and the reason being ergonomics.

A phone will be perfect in some scenarios, but the screen will be too small in others. Likewise a tablet that is large enough and convenient in some instances, will be inadequate and too small in others. And a hybrid would have too small a screen, or be too bulky if the screen was big enough to replace a laptop/ desktop.

So for that reason, there will always need to be three devices/ form factors, even if the third is just a screen to plug into. But again that will be under the assumption that where you are travelling to will have a screen that you can plug into, it might not, which would necessitate a larger form factor such as a laptop.

I know we disagree on this issue to some degree, so this is more for conversation's sake than anything.

Anyhow, I think that to some extent people do want one device, but they want no compromises in either hardware or software. This is the first year that the hardware is starting to get close to that reality; if my laptop screen can contain the entire computer and only dock to the keyboard as necessary, that's a new paradigm that people might be willing to accept.

The problem is, hardware is only 1/2 of the equation. As I've said here before, until the software is as simple and reliable as it is on iOS and Android, people will still want tablet 'appliances' that are always on, always ready.

The other thing is I'm not sure merging the form factor is really the way to go. I'm ok with a laptop and a tablet right now because a 10" laptop is too small for work, and a 14" laptop is too big for portability. I think tablets will eventually settle in at that 7-10" range for use on the go and around the house and people will still keep larger laptops and desktops to do work on. There is a huge difference between a 10.6" tablet and a 7" one, just like there is a huge difference between working on a 10.6" screen and a 14" one.


That pretty much sums up my thoughts almost exactly.

spinedoc77
Oct 31, 2012, 12:41 PM
I respect your view, and our views to some extent will be coloured (UK spelling) on by what we use the devices for our selves.

I see where your coming from, especially regarding Surface pro, because I share your view there. Where I differ is I think there will always need to be a third market, and the reason being ergonomics.

A phone will be perfect in some scenarios, but the screen will be too small in others. Likewise a tablet that is large enough and convenient in some instances, will be inadequate and too small in others. And a hybrid would have too small a screen, or be too bulky if the screen was big enough to replace a laptop/ desktop.

So for that reason, there will always need to be three devices/ form factors, even if the third is just a screen to plug into. But again that will be under the assumption that where you are travelling to will have a screen that you can plug into, it might not, which would necessitate a larger form factor such as a laptop.




That pretty much sums up my thoughts almost exactly.

No argument from me there, just as there can be a need for a desktop to the laptop owner, so too the laptop owner may also need a tablet. Where I differ though is I don't believe iOS is a necessary part of that equation at all. So we need to differentiate between a third hardware device category, which I agree with, and a third OS category which I don't agree that we need anymore.

If Windows 8 Pro was perfect, which it's not, but if it was what reason would iOS even have to exist? If Apple put out an OSx tablet tomorrow, what reason would iOS have to exist? iOS valiantly served its purpose, but IMO it's time to let the past go, to let the Palm OS go, to let the Windows Mobile OS go, to let iOS go.

For the record I think Apple is much smarter than you or I. It's obvious they have been introducing iOS like functions into OSx, they have been thinking for a long time now the need to merge the 2 OS'. Especially with this push by Microsoft I think Apple will one day soon release an OSx tablet, but only after they have perfected OSx for tablets. Apple won't make the same mistake that MS made in releasing an OS that straddles the line too much, but fails to please both computer users and tablet users. Apple's genius is they know how to squeeze all the cash out of consumers and even they are smart enough to see a paradigm shift from having a watered down OS because the hardware wasn't there and having technology finally catch up so you can have a full OS. iOS will stay with the iphone just like RT will stay with WP8, there may be a very low priced iOS ipad sold as an "ipod" or a media consumption device, but Apple IMO is most definitely, somewhere along the line thinking about an OSx tablet. The question is how will they keep from cannibalizing their laptop sales, maybe a higher priced "laptop" that is really an OSx tablet with a docking station as the new luxury item, although there is very little room to maneuver with Microsoft pricing. Ahh competition is good.

iTurnip
Oct 31, 2012, 12:55 PM
My friend did state and show that he only had 19GB free on his 32GB device. He didn't have much if anything really installed. I was kinda shocked.

----------




Point #1 should still be an issue because you have the inconvenience of buying a third party device to fill the need. Plus you have to add to the overall cost of the device.

On point #3, he couldn't get it going but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he hasn't put much effort into getting VPN going.

On point #5, you purchased the device with HOPE that app support will come. The Windows Phone 7 consumers are still hoping too. :)

It is a cool device overall and I would probably buy that over an Android tablet. Maybe.

Point #1 I could have chosen a 64gb surface but the cost of buying an additional 64gb SD card is half the cost of the 32gb upgrade. Thus the cost is actually less for a device with more memory. Plus having an infinite ability to upgrade storage far out weighs the inconvience of spending 1 minute on the internet to buy a memory card .

Point # 5 Every person who bought the first generation ipad and iphone took the same leap of faith and with microsoft offering 80% of profit for developers to make apps for the worlds largest computer market, apps are sure to follow. I am already seeing new apps being added every day.

Everybody who has used my surface has loved it, even the most self confessed apple fan boys.

spinedoc77
Oct 31, 2012, 12:56 PM
Good to hear about the battery life.

Can you expand on the above statement? I think that reviews updated over time are of far more value than only hearing back on the first day or two of ownership.

I'm 1000% sold on having Windows on a tablet, the experience is just incredible. Metro as a UI is ok, too many compromises and most of the time I will seek out a desktop program instead of its Metro equivalent. Internet explorer is a prime example, it's neutered in some weird design aspects in Metro, but in desktop mode it's the same old internet explorer, reliable and overall great.

Honestly I have little issue running in desktop, I set DPI to 125% and everything scales well. Things like running a full version of photoshop, office, etc etc just cannot be beat. If I want a "dumb" media consumption device I can have that, video, pictures, music, social media, etc etc I don't see an iota of difference between iOS and Windows 8.

The absolute only caveat I have is the Atom CPU. Most times it is great, but sometimes it does lag, or the entire device just sticks for a second or 2, but I can usually pinpoint it to something CPU intensive. This is a short term issue IMO as we are getting the Haswell quad core CPU's next year, and honestly the Atom performance is very nice the vast majority of the time, I'm just a power user and get concerned if I start to load up power programs, although as I mentioned PS elements ran perfectly and was a dream to use with a pressure sensitive stylus.

My other choice is the ivy bridge full CPU's. I'll have to wait and see how they perform, battery life, etc. This is what a lot of people are waiting for, in particular the Surface Pro. I'm seeing what Samsung, acer and asus are putting out as Pro solutions today and I'm not sure if I'm impressed, but I cannot judge until it's in my hands. If the battery life and performance is there with the ivy bridge CPUs then I'll be sold, well I'm already sold and the Atom is acceptable, just not perfect. But the alternative of living in a dark dreary world of "apps" is enough of a sorry alternative where I'll accept some hardware foibles.

iTurnip
Oct 31, 2012, 12:58 PM
Have one, its going back.

Sucks: flash doesn't work in most good sites. Defeats the point of a laptop replacement.

RT is just bad in many ways. Really substandard browsing experience and even default apps are a poor experience.

No apps. Kindle is unusable.

Auto brightness is unusable.

Sluggish performance in everything except System UI.

The Verge's own Surface review won't load on the device without it hanging halfway.

It's a compromise in every way that makes me rather use another laptop or tablet in any given scenario than use the Surface.

That's certainly not the experience I have had. Two people I work with are buying one as a result of loving mine.

Jinzen
Oct 31, 2012, 01:43 PM
That's certainly not the experience I have had. Two people I work with are buying one as a result of loving mine.

Of course it's your experience. Lack of apps, hanging websites, restricted flash etc. These are measurable and objective.

It's not like you used it for anything except IE or Word anyway. Nothing else is worth using on it.

j_maddison
Oct 31, 2012, 02:08 PM
No argument from me there, just as there can be a need for a desktop to the laptop owner, so too the laptop owner may also need a tablet. Where I differ though is I don't believe iOS is a necessary part of that equation at all. So we need to differentiate between a third hardware device category, which I agree with, and a third OS category which I don't agree that we need anymore.

If Windows 8 Pro was perfect, which it's not, but if it was what reason would iOS even have to exist? If Apple put out an OSx tablet tomorrow, what reason would iOS have to exist? iOS valiantly served its purpose, but IMO it's time to let the past go, to let the Palm OS go, to let the Windows Mobile OS go, to let iOS go.

For the record I think Apple is much smarter than you or I. It's obvious they have been introducing iOS like functions into OSx, they have been thinking for a long time now the need to merge the 2 OS'. Especially with this push by Microsoft I think Apple will one day soon release an OSx tablet, but only after they have perfected OSx for tablets. Apple won't make the same mistake that MS made in releasing an OS that straddles the line too much, but fails to please both computer users and tablet users. Apple's genius is they know how to squeeze all the cash out of consumers and even they are smart enough to see a paradigm shift from having a watered down OS because the hardware wasn't there and having technology finally catch up so you can have a full OS. iOS will stay with the iphone just like RT will stay with WP8, there may be a very low priced iOS ipad sold as an "ipod" or a media consumption device, but Apple IMO is most definitely, somewhere along the line thinking about an OSx tablet. The question is how will they keep from cannibalizing their laptop sales, maybe a higher priced "laptop" that is really an OSx tablet with a docking station as the new luxury item, although there is very little room to maneuver with Microsoft pricing. Ahh competition is good.

I see where your coming from on the OS thing. I agree with what your saying about Windows 8, I think it's the birth of an OS that pretty much transcends all form factors. The front end is the same, you just pick what type of device you want to use it on. With more cloud integration, facilitated by faster and always on connectivity, you could well end up with a scenario (excluding large data files), where you simply stop working on one device and pick up another. Like leaving the office and going on a site visit, and then returning to the office and transferring back to your desktop. Everything working seamlessly.

In that scenario, yes iOS would need to die a sudden death or Apple would be going down the pan fast. iOS profited because it was simple, anyone could use it and be up and running within minutes. I think for a lot of people it's far too simple now, and we'll all have our little pet hates about it. Multi tasking, or the lack of being an absolute ball ache for me. Websites not having to reload being another, but that's obviously not a UI issue.

I think we're heaving back to the times where the hardware needs to catch up to meet the needs of the software, I think that time had stagnated for a little while. This time around it's the other kind of power that's the issue.

What Samsung device were you talking about a few posts back? Samsung Ativ?? The battery life discussion pricked my interest.

coldmack
Oct 31, 2012, 03:06 PM
Huh? The iPad is the first tablet to see wide adoption into the corporate market, and it's 4:3.

Consumers by and large just buy whatever is cheapest and don't put too much thought into the fact that they are getting less screen with 16:9 panels.
Yeah except no. It was those HP, and Lenovo tablets with the OS that should never be used that gained some fair adoption. Back then they were 4:3, until they went to 16:10, which is now what the business, and enterprise market still prefer after years of acceptance. Hence why the the HP Elitebook tablet is still 16:10 and most other business tablets too were 16:10 for a long while, until they were sort of forced by MS to make it 16:9 to support their new garbage OS, and it's snap feature.

iTurnip
Oct 31, 2012, 03:47 PM
Of course it's your experience. Lack of apps, hanging websites, restricted flash etc. These are measurable and objective.

It's not like you used it for anything except IE or Word anyway. Nothing else is worth using on it.

Like you know what I use my surface for. I've tried most of it's functions. I'm sure it must be operator error on your part. I don't actually believe you bought one and are just here to blindly hate it as it's not an apple product.

Night Spring
Oct 31, 2012, 04:33 PM
For the record I think Apple is much smarter than you or I. It's obvious they have been introducing iOS like functions into OSx, they have been thinking for a long time now the need to merge the 2 OS'. Especially with this push by Microsoft I think Apple will one day soon release an OSx tablet, but only after they have perfected OSx for tablets. Apple won't make the same mistake that MS made in releasing an OS that straddles the line too much, but fails to please both computer users and tablet users. Apple's genius is they know how to squeeze all the cash out of consumers and even they are smart enough to see a paradigm shift from having a watered down OS because the hardware wasn't there and having technology finally catch up so you can have a full OS. iOS will stay with the iphone just like RT will stay with WP8, there may be a very low priced iOS ipad sold as an "ipod" or a media consumption device, but Apple IMO is most definitely, somewhere along the line thinking about an OSx tablet. The question is how will they keep from cannibalizing their laptop sales, maybe a higher priced "laptop" that is really an OSx tablet with a docking station as the new luxury item, although there is very little room to maneuver with Microsoft pricing. Ahh competition is good.

I do think Apple is going to merge iOS and OS X somewhere down the line, and they'll probably come out with something like a MacBook Air with a detachable keyboard where the screen is a tablet when the keyboard is not attached. And I don't think they'll worry about it cannibalizing their laptop sales -- the laptop will just die a natural death once the convertible tablet/laptop form matures.

But I think Apple was absolutely right in creating a touch-centric OS for the tablet first, then worrying about merging it back with the desktop OS later. Microsoft kept trying to develop and sell tablet computers for nearly two decades, and it never got widely adopted because they kept trying to clam a full desktop OS into a tablet. This was bad for two reasons -- one, hardware-wise, it required too much power, and made the tablets heavy, clumsy, and expensive. Two, software-wise, touch interaction was always an afterthought. Microsoft designed the software with the desktop in mind, and added touch features to a UI paradigm that was fundamentally designed for desktops.

Now, the hardware is finally at the point where a full desktop OS can be run on systems that are light and portable enough to be usable as tablets. But software-wise, Microsoft would never have created a tablet-centric UI like the Metro UI for Win8 without Apple kicking them in the backside with iOS.

So while the future should be a merging back of desktop and tablet OS, I think that the detour through a tablet-specific OS was a necessary intermediary step. Even now, I feel I would personally prefer the iPad + laptop combination to any of the Win 8 hybrid laptop/tablet solutions avaiable today. If the perfect convertible tablet/laptop was here, of course I would want that. But all the Win8 hybrids I've seen seem awkward in one way or other -- too big and heavy to be a comfortable tablet, or too small to be a usable laptop. And knowing Apple's track record, my money is on Apple to come out with the perfect hybrid first. Of course, if someone else should get there first, I wouldn't complain. ;)

pesos
Oct 31, 2012, 04:41 PM
I do think Apple is going to merge iOS and OS X somewhere down the line, and they'll probably come out with something like a MacBook Air with a detachable keyboard where the screen is a tablet when the keyboard is not attached. And I don't think they'll worry about it cannibalizing their laptop sales -- the laptop will just die a natural death once the convertible tablet/laptop form matures.

But I think Apple was absolutely right in creating a touch-centric OS for the tablet first, then worrying about merging it back with the desktop OS later. Microsoft kept trying to develop and sell tablet computers for nearly two decades, and it never got widely adopted because they kept trying to clam a full desktop OS into a tablet. This was bad for two reasons -- one, hardware-wise, it required too much power, and made the tablets heavy, clumsy, and expensive. Two, software-wise, touch interaction was always an afterthought. Microsoft designed the software with the desktop in mind, and added touch features to a UI paradigm that was fundamentally designed for desktops.

Now, the hardware is finally at the point where a full desktop OS can be run on systems that are light and portable enough to be usable as tablets. But software-wise, Microsoft would never have created a tablet-centric UI like the Metro UI for Win8 without Apple kicking them in the backside with iOS.

So while the future should be a merging back of desktop and tablet OS, I think that the detour through a tablet-specific OS was a necessary intermediary step. Even now, I feel I would personally prefer the iPad + laptop combination to any of the Win 8 hybrid laptop/tablet solutions avaiable today. If the perfect convertible tablet/laptop was here, of course I would want that. But all the Win8 hybrids I've seen seem awkward in one way or other -- too big and heavy to be a comfortable tablet, or too small to be a usable laptop. And knowing Apple's track record, my money is on Apple to come out with the perfect hybrid first. Of course, if someone else should get there first, I wouldn't complain. ;)

Hence my other thread "Apple should respect the Surface Pro"

It has the MBA guts in a 2 lb, thin tablet package and offers the touch/type covers. I'll probably be selling my retina MBP and going with a Surface Pro/iMac combo from there on out...

Renzatic
Oct 31, 2012, 04:51 PM
I'll probably be selling my retina MBP and going with a Surface Pro/iMac combo from there on out...

If you do, hit me up. Even with the Surface Pro coming out, I still wouldn't minding having an rMBP.

spinedoc77
Oct 31, 2012, 04:53 PM
I see where your coming from on the OS thing. I agree with what your saying about Windows 8, I think it's the birth of an OS that pretty much transcends all form factors. The front end is the same, you just pick what type of device you want to use it on. With more cloud integration, facilitated by faster and always on connectivity, you could well end up with a scenario (excluding large data files), where you simply stop working on one device and pick up another. Like leaving the office and going on a site visit, and then returning to the office and transferring back to your desktop. Everything working seamlessly.

In that scenario, yes iOS would need to die a sudden death or Apple would be going down the pan fast. iOS profited because it was simple, anyone could use it and be up and running within minutes. I think for a lot of people it's far too simple now, and we'll all have our little pet hates about it. Multi tasking, or the lack of being an absolute ball ache for me. Websites not having to reload being another, but that's obviously not a UI issue.

I think we're heaving back to the times where the hardware needs to catch up to meet the needs of the software, I think that time had stagnated for a little while. This time around it's the other kind of power that's the issue.

What Samsung device were you talking about a few posts back? Samsung Ativ?? The battery life discussion pricked my interest.

Yes I have the Samsung ativ smart PC, it's got full windows on it.

For the record I just left the mall and was able to check out the surface RT in person. Very nice, physical form factor is ok but it feels thick (even though it isn't) kind of like how the iphone 4\4s feel thick because of the squared off design. The keyboard was great, the flat one worked very well but the type cover was SICK. I still wouldn't touch it as all the criticism I throw at iOS as being unnecessary I also believes applies to RT.

----------

Of course it's your experience. Lack of apps, hanging websites, restricted flash etc. These are measurable and objective.

It's not like you used it for anything except IE or Word anyway. Nothing else is worth using on it.

Are you really using restricted flash and hanging web sites as your argument in favor of the iPad?!?! That's funny.

Night Spring
Oct 31, 2012, 05:03 PM
Hence my other thread "Apple should respect the Surface Pro"

It has the MBA guts in a 2 lb, thin tablet package and offers the touch/type covers. I'll probably be selling my retina MBP and going with a Surface Pro/iMac combo from there on out...

I dunno. The Surface Pro screen is the same size as Surface RT, correct? If so, for me the screen would be a bit small to be workable as a laptop. And personally, I'd hate to trade the gorgeous screen of a retina MacBook for any other screen. I assume for you, portability is a bigger concern?

Of course, I'm really interested to see how well the Surface Pro works as a laptop replacement, but I tend to lean toward skeptical. There are all sorts of little details that add up to a overall "not quite there" impression. I suppose we'll see when it arrives.

zhenya
Oct 31, 2012, 06:56 PM
Yeah except no. It was those HP, and Lenovo tablets with the OS that should never be used that gained some fair adoption. Back then they were 4:3, until they went to 16:10, which is now what the business, and enterprise market still prefer after years of acceptance. Hence why the the HP Elitebook tablet is still 16:10 and most other business tablets too were 16:10 for a long while, until they were sort of forced by MS to make it 16:9 to support their new garbage OS, and it's snap feature.

You're missing the point. 'Business' tablet or not, NO other tablet until the iPad ever had significant penetration into the corporate market. The iPad has sold more units by orders of magnitude than every other tablet made before it combined. Given that, it's ridiculous to say that market prefers 16:10 when the iPad is 4:3. They prefer what works best, not a particular format.

coldmack
Oct 31, 2012, 08:04 PM
You're missing the point. 'Business' tablet or not, NO other tablet until the iPad ever had significant penetration into the corporate market. The iPad has sold more units by orders of magnitude than every other tablet made before it combined. Given that, it's ridiculous to say that market prefers 16:10 when the iPad is 4:3. They prefer what works best, not a particular format.

You do realize that most people(including the corporate world) don't even know the aspect ratio of the iPad, laptop, or even their TV. Many will say their TV is widescreen, while their iPad has a non-wide screen retina display. So, that doesn't necessarily mean it works best, but what Apple thinks is best. The business and enterprise market are still choosing 16:10 or else companies like HP would be making 16:9 business tablets like Lenovo, after doing focus groups(my friend was in one really shameful).

zhenya
Oct 31, 2012, 08:31 PM
You do realize that most people(including the corporate world) don't even know the aspect ratio of the iPad, laptop, or even their TV. Many will say their TV is widescreen, while their iPad has a non-wide screen retina display. So, that doesn't necessarily mean it works best, but what Apple thinks is best. The business and enterprise market are still choosing 16:10 or else companies like HP would be making 16:9 business tablets like Lenovo, after doing focus groups(my friend was in one really shameful).

Yes, hence my statement above -

They prefer what works best, not a particular format.

In other words they don't care about the screen aspect ratio, but what device works best.

Jinzen
Oct 31, 2012, 09:17 PM
Yes I have the Samsung ativ smart PC, it's got full windows on it.

For the record I just left the mall and was able to check out the surface RT in person. Very nice, physical form factor is ok but it feels thick (even though it isn't) kind of like how the iphone 4\4s feel thick because of the squared off design. The keyboard was great, the flat one worked very well but the type cover was SICK. I still wouldn't touch it as all the criticism I throw at iOS as being unnecessary I also believes applies to RT.

----------



Are you really using restricted flash and hanging web sites as your argument in favor of the iPad?!?! That's funny.

Yes, because if you can't do what the iPad can't do, you just have a much much worse imitation of an iPad with no Apps?

Is this somehow dfficult to grasp to you?

DingleButt
Oct 31, 2012, 10:08 PM
Yes, because if you can't do what the iPad can't do, you just have a much much worse imitation of an iPad with no Apps?

Is this somehow dfficult to grasp to you?

It cant do SOME of what the iPad cant do but it CAN do several things that the iPad cant (So you make the claim its not better). Thats why you are being stupid with your arguments. Just someone watching from the outside's opinion.

spinedoc77
Nov 1, 2012, 05:03 AM
Yes, because if you can't do what the iPad can't do, you just have a much much worse imitation of an iPad with no Apps?

Is this somehow dfficult to grasp to you?

I can't speak for the RT, but I have a Windows Pro tablet and I have been browsing flash sites this whole week with no issues, I'm still in shock over actually being able to see flash on a tablet. It works perfectly, and is the way the internet is meant to be viewed. I'm also not getting any hung up web pages at all, certainly not the case with the POS rendering of graphic heavy web pages on my ipad 3 where I sit there for several seconds while it loads up graphics, then each time I scroll down it takes several seconds to load those graphics up again.

Auto brightness does suck, I'll grant you that, I turned it off. But it never worked in my ipad either, it's turned off there as well.

Kindle app? It works perfectly for me.

As for apps I won't argue on the RT side, but I think the Windows marketplace will fill up pretty quickly. The big name apps will come, but otherwise Apples app marketplace is incredibly blown up. Most of the apps are so niche, or repeated that it's obvious the number is overblown and hyped. There was even a recent study which showed that 400,000 apps have never even been downloaded !!! Still, the apple store does have more apps, but give it some time and we will see. Of course when we switch over to Windows Pro the app argument gets completely demolished when you have access to "real" programs. Personally the more I use my windows tablet the more I begin to hate "apps", watered down dumbified versions of programs, I find myself turning to the desktop version of programs more often even if there is a metro equivalent.

Night Spring
Nov 1, 2012, 05:17 AM
I can't speak for the RT, but I have a Windows Pro tablet

>snip<

I find myself turning to the desktop version of programs more often even if there is a metro equivalent.

Does your tablet have a keyboard/trackpad, or are you using the desktop programs by touch only? If you do use touch, how is that working out?

spinedoc77
Nov 1, 2012, 08:40 AM
Does your tablet have a keyboard/trackpad, or are you using the desktop programs by touch only? If you do use touch, how is that working out?

I use both. Sometimes I'm at my breakfast bar and I it connected to a Logitech mouse and the apple Bluetooth keyboard. Usually though I'm on the sofa or in bed and use the touch. Desktop using touch works well, but only for a couple of reasons. First I set the DPI to 125%, that helps a ton. 2nd in very cursor heavy programs I will use the built in stylus, for example in photoshop this works extremely well.

Of course the Metro programs are easier to use and I was just generalizing. But it seems there are 2 classes of metro programs, the ones which the developer painstakingly gives them all the functionality of the desktop version but gears them towards a touch interface, this is like Microsoft with their Office programs which are very nice in Metro. The other type is the program which "dumbifies" everything for the sake of being touch oriented, sacrificing many features of the desktop program.

Black Magic
Nov 1, 2012, 10:05 AM
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49551054

Looking at the video embedded in the article, Steve Ballmer taps the News app on the Surface and it took an embarrassing long time for the information to come up. In fact, he started swiping to get out of the app and his swipes didn't register before finally the info displayed. Anyone with a Surface experiencing the same?

TheHateMachine
Nov 1, 2012, 01:27 PM
http://www.cnbc.com/id/49551054

Looking at the video embedded in the article, Steve Ballmer taps the News app on the Surface and it took an embarrassing long time for the information to come up. In fact, he started swiping to get out of the app and his swipes didn't register before finally the info displayed. Anyone with a Surface experiencing the same?

When the device is on a fresh boot all the metro apps take a little longer than usual to load on the first time. I've never had the swipe menus not appear during a load though.

Jinzen
Nov 1, 2012, 04:28 PM
It cant do SOME of what the iPad cant do but it CAN do several things that the iPad cant (So you make the claim its not better). Thats why you are being stupid with your arguments. Just someone watching from the outside's opinion.

Ok, let's put it this way.

It does EVERYTHING tablet related worse than the iPad.

It does EVERYTHING PC related worse than a laptop.

It's a full compromise and provides no actual significant benefits. It cant replace a computer and its awful as a tablet.

As a typer or netbook, it's overpriced. And doesn't even run Windows apps in a pinch.

So yea, no, RT is awful.

pesos
Nov 1, 2012, 04:30 PM
Ok, let's put it this way.

It does EVERYTHING tablet related worse than the iPad.

It does EVERYTHING PC related worse than a laptop.

It's a full compromise and provides no actual significant benefits. It cant replace a computer and its awful as a tablet.

As a typer or netbook, it's overpriced. And doesn't even run Windows apps in a pinch.

So yea, no, RT is awful.

None of your assertions are true.

spinedoc77
Nov 1, 2012, 05:26 PM
Ok, let's put it this way.

It does EVERYTHING tablet related worse than the iPad.

It does EVERYTHING PC related worse than a laptop.

It's a full compromise and provides no actual significant benefits. It cant replace a computer and its awful as a tablet.

As a typer or netbook, it's overpriced. And doesn't even run Windows apps in a pinch.

So yea, no, RT is awful.

I'm a huge Microsoft fan, I sold my MacBook air and bought a Windows 8 Pro tablet and plan on selling both my ipads. But even I have to admit that RT is a mistake and IMO it will flop hard and has the chance to bring Windows Pro down with it.

I don't agree that the ipad does much better than RT, at least its core functions of web browsing and media consumption, but the only thing RT has going for it is Office. Additionally the ipad is the same compromise from a laptop as RT, more so when you consider Office so I don't see that as a valid point.

But you are right RT cannot replace a computer, but neither can the ipad. RT isn't awful as a tablet, it just doesn't have anything that will pull anyone away from Android or iOS. I'll say it again, RT was a huge mistake on MS part. If they came out strong with Windows 8 Pro tablets priced right and if they just integrated the tablet and desktop UI's a little bit more they would have swept the market. But what will probably happen is the RT will fade into Zune-land and windows 8 pro tablets will have moderate success probably eating into Android more than iOS.

smellysox8
Nov 1, 2012, 05:29 PM
Here is a pretty thorough review:

TTOiVvHCIyI

Pay attention at 7:15

Jinzen
Nov 1, 2012, 05:33 PM
I'm a huge Microsoft fan, I sold my MacBook air and bought a Windows 8 Pro tablet and plan on selling both my ipads. But even I have to admit that RT is a mistake and IMO it will flop hard and has the chance to bring Windows Pro down with it.

I don't agree that the ipad does much better than RT, at least its core functions of web browsing and media consumption, but the only thing RT has going for it is Office. Additionally the ipad is the same compromise from a laptop as RT, more so when you consider Office so I don't see that as a valid point.

But you are right RT cannot replace a computer, but neither can the ipad. RT isn't awful as a tablet, it just doesn't have anything that will pull anyone away from Android or iOS. I'll say it again, RT was a huge mistake on MS part. If they came out strong with Windows 8 Pro tablets priced right and if they just integrated the tablet and desktop UI's a little bit more they would have swept the market. But what will probably happen is the RT will fade into Zune-land and windows 8 pro tablets will have moderate success probably eating into Android more than iOS.

You're saying RT is a gigantic fail and that the iPad, possibly the most incredibly successful device in the last decade, isn't better?

Nope, lack of Office aside - the iPad has any and every app that makes up for a feature or of Office on Surface. It can't replicate a mouse cursor or a file system desktop, but otherwise, we'll see office come to iPad shortly anyway.

On the hardware front, it's quite a disgrace. Best in class SoC (A6x) and display, camera, and battery life... Vs Surface that struggles to do anything and falls behind in all those categories.

pesos
Nov 1, 2012, 05:39 PM
I'm a huge Microsoft fan, I sold my MacBook air and bought a Windows 8 Pro tablet and plan on selling both my ipads. But even I have to admit that RT is a mistake and IMO it will flop hard and has the chance to bring Windows Pro down with it.

I don't agree that the ipad does much better than RT, at least its core functions of web browsing and media consumption, but the only thing RT has going for it is Office. Additionally the ipad is the same compromise from a laptop as RT, more so when you consider Office so I don't see that as a valid point.

But you are right RT cannot replace a computer, but neither can the ipad. RT isn't awful as a tablet, it just doesn't have anything that will pull anyone away from Android or iOS. I'll say it again, RT was a huge mistake on MS part. If they came out strong with Windows 8 Pro tablets priced right and if they just integrated the tablet and desktop UI's a little bit more they would have swept the market. But what will probably happen is the RT will fade into Zune-land and windows 8 pro tablets will have moderate success probably eating into Android more than iOS.

The RT could absolutely be a sole computing device for the right person. Office suite/email/calendar/web browsing/media/movies/printing/full file system/usb port. I would have killed for one as my sole computing device in college.

----------

And you are a flat out liar or just willfully ignorant. No surprise either way as you are trying to refute such patently prima facie facts of x86 incompatibility, complete dearth of apps, performance issues, etc.

Hmm, I don't see x86 compatibility on the iPad either, maybe I'm not looking hard enough. Send me a link, bro, I must be missing it!

Complete dearth of apps? There are plenty of apps, and a ton more coming. The OS is officially a week old lol. Did you pan the iPhone the week after it was released for not having enough apps? Hilarious.

The performance issues discussed in a couple of idiotic reviews stem from people not having run updates. Points deducted from M$ for not having the final version of Office on the shipped devices as opposed to pushing it out via an update. Other than that, the thing performs beautifully. Unlike you, I can speak from experience having put it through its paces.

If you want to have a real conversation about the pros and cons of both devices, as many others here do and are, let's go for it. But to make comments as ridiculous as "it does EVERYTHING tablet related worse than an ipad" and "EVERYTHING pc related worse than a laptop" simply shows that you have no interest in doing so.

smellysox8
Nov 1, 2012, 05:43 PM
Ok, let's put it this way.

It does EVERYTHING tablet related worse than the iPad.

It does EVERYTHING PC related worse than a laptop.

It's a full compromise and provides no actual significant benefits. It cant replace a computer and its awful as a tablet.

As a typer or netbook, it's overpriced. And doesn't even run Windows apps in a pinch.

So yea, no, RT is awful.
This is coming from a guy who has never touched a Surface RT. :rolleyes:

spinedoc77
Nov 1, 2012, 05:49 PM
You're saying RT is a gigantic fail and that the iPad, possibly the most incredibly successful device in the last decade, isn't better?

Nope, lack of Office aside - the iPad has any and every app that makes up for a feature or of Office on Surface. It can't replicate a mouse cursor or a file system desktop, but otherwise, we'll see office come to iPad shortly anyway.

On the hardware front, it's quite a disgrace. Best in class SoC (A6x) and display, camera, and battery life... Vs Surface that struggles to do anything and falls behind in all those categories.

That's exactly what I'm saying. Pages doesn't even come close to the functionality of the entire Office package, and having mouse and keyboard support streamline working with Office type programs immensely. The whole app ecosystem is overblown, a huge amount of apps don't even sell, there are a ridiculous amount of repeat apps, even with that there are a lot more apps than on RT so I won't say that's not a valid point, just overblown especially since RT is young just as iOS was at one time.

Hardware I don't know, I have only used RT for half an hour or so at the MS booth. It ran all the Office apps smoothly with no issues, it browsed websites with no issue, but I'll let other users with more RT hardware experience chime in there. I do know that my ipad3 really really sucks at web browsing, give it a graphic heavy webpage and it stutters and loads slowly initially AND every time I scroll down, it's outright awful.

But at the end of the day I agree with you, but for different reasons. RT is terrible and will fail, I just hope it fails quickly and without fanfare so Pro can step up.

----------

The RT could absolutely be a sole computing device for the right person. Office suite/email/calendar/web browsing/media/movies/printing/full file system/usb port. I would have killed for one as my sole computing device in college.[COLOR="#808080"]
.

I don't disagree with you, if the ipad never existed and more importantly if Windows 8 Pro tablets never existed then it would have been a killer package. Unfortunately the ipad is much more popular and RT won't be compelling to pull people away from it, and even if it was Windows 8 Pro is priced virtually the same so I'm having a hard time seeing Microsofts strategy. Even OEM's like Asus are shying away from making RT tablets.

dmelgar
Nov 1, 2012, 05:50 PM
Nope, lack of Office aside - the iPad has any and every app that makes up for a feature or of Office on Surface. It can't replicate a mouse cursor or a file system desktop, but otherwise, we'll see office come to iPad shortly anyway.


iPad has Numbers, Pages and Keynote. They're not as powerful as Office, but they are designed for a touch screen and don't require a keyboard.

Renzatic
Nov 1, 2012, 05:58 PM
And you are a flat out liar or just willfully ignorant. No surprise either way as you are trying to refute such patently prima facie facts of x86 incompatibility, complete dearth of apps, performance issues, etc.

What performance issues? Apps do take a bit to load when you first fire them up, but they also do on the iPad. I've seen Facebook app take upwards of 15 seconds to load on my 3.

Oh, and Safari freezing for 3-4 seconds while it loads heavy webpages.

...and apps crashing. I can't use Pages without it kicking me to the springboard at least twice per session.

The iPad must be terrible, too. EVERYTHING SUCKS! I HATE IT ALL! :mad:

Dearth of apps? Yeah, things are a bit slim pickings over in the Marketplace at the moment, but it's not terrible. I'd put it roughly on par with the iPhone when it first gained access to app store 4 years ago.

One thing I can agree with is the RT doesn't offer any super compelling reason to choose it over the iPad at the moment. It's neat, but I don't see myself wanting to ditch my iPad for one, neat keyboard or not.

That said, it's not a bad device. Far from it. It's fantastic for a first rev, sports some great ideas that could make it more comfortable to use than an ipad for heavier work, and has the promise of offering even better things over the horizon.

iPad has Numbers, Pages and Keynote. They're not as powerful as Office, but they are designed for a touch screen and don't require a keyboard.

Let me give you an example of what it's like to use Pages without a keyboard.

a...n...d....t...h...e...n...I...s...a...i...d...t...o...M...a...b...l...e...

"...Crap. I messed something up a couple paragraphs back. I'll just use my finger to place my cursor right...there...no...there...no...DAMNIT...no...you son of a...THERE! FINALLY"!

It's got a great touchscreen interface, but there's no way in HELL I'd use it without my keyboard.

spinedoc77
Nov 1, 2012, 06:55 PM
Interesting, Anandtech's RT review notes just how fast and smooth the Surface RT is. He does note the first time opening a program is slow, but after that subsequent openings are instant. I still don't like RT, but at least we can move on past the fabricated hardware deficiencies.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6385/microsoft-surface-review

faroZ06
Nov 1, 2012, 06:58 PM
The OS looks like a stinky mess, but I like how you can connect a mouse to it. Wired USB isn't the way to go with tablets, but a Bluetooth mouse would be good. Why not have the ability to use Bluetooth mice with devices that already have Bluetooth?

Renzatic
Nov 1, 2012, 07:06 PM
The OS looks like a stinky mess, but I like how you can connect a mouse to it. Wired USB isn't the way to go with tablets, but a Bluetooth mouse would be good. Why not have the ability to use Bluetooth mice with devices that already have Bluetooth?

You can. That video posted in the other RT thread shows a guy doing just that. First he plugs it up on USB, then fires it up on Bluetooth.

edit: Er. I mean this thread.

faroZ06
Nov 1, 2012, 07:09 PM
iPad has Numbers, Pages and Keynote. They're not as powerful as Office, but they are designed for a touch screen and don't require a keyboard.

I use iWork on my Mac. What I've experienced:

Pages isn't as powerful as Word, but it's more stable and always, ALWAYS works. Word, on the other hand, occasionally causes major frustration with its strange issues. The missing features aren't really needed, so that aspect is no deal-breaker. So it has replaced Word for me.

Keynote just kills and eats Powerpoint. It's better than it in every way. 101% satisfied.

Numbers is a bit easier to use and more stable than Excel, but it lacks some big, important features. It especially sucks with graphs. It's just really lame. I'm majorly disappointed in this joke of a spreadsheet app. I typically use Excel when I need to deal with spreadsheets. Considering how low my expectations are for Microsoft, this is a major fail on Apple's part.

All of these are in the Apple ecosystem, which is a little better for me since I'm a Mac/iPhone user. Too bad Snow Leopard doesn't @#$%ing work with iCloud!

----------

You can. That video posted in the other RT thread shows a guy doing just that. First he plugs it up on USB, then fires it up on Bluetooth.

edit: Er. I mean this thread.

That's good. What I'm complaining about is how iOS devices don't officially support Bluetooth mice; I didn't doubt that the Surface supports it. Hopefully, Apple will add it now that some competitors have it.

zhenya
Nov 2, 2012, 12:47 PM
Tried out an Asus RT tablet at Best Buy this morning. To go right in hand with my last Windows 8 tablet experience, this example would not open IE. I rebooted, and IE would now open but it was no longer connected to the wifi access point. The sales guy and I spent several minutes trying to get it connected again to no avail. He admitted that the Windows tablets were having a lot of issues like this.

If MS can't get this stuff sorted out quick, their tablet dreams are going to die a quick death. The iPad 2 and 3 on display next to this were absolutely trashed from heavy use, but their software was working flawlessly.

DingleButt
Nov 2, 2012, 12:50 PM
Tried out an Asus RT tablet at Best Buy this morning. To go right in hand with my last Windows 8 tablet experience, this example would not open IE. I rebooted, and IE would now open but it was no longer connected to the wifi access point. The sales guy and I spent several minutes trying to get it connected again to no avail. He admitted that the Windows tablets were having a lot of issues like this.

If MS can't get this stuff sorted out quick, their tablet dreams are going to die a quick death. The iPad 2 and 3 on display next to this were absolutely trashed from heavy use, but their software was working flawlessly.

Haha, think about why all the computers might have internet connectivity issues in that location over 2 OS's (RT and 8) at least. Sound like an access point issue? I believe the IE crashing. Ive seen that on my own Win8 computer.

A few of the computers at my BestBuy were trying to connect to the wrong WiFi point until I pointed them to the right point.

zhenya
Nov 2, 2012, 12:53 PM
Haha, think about why all the computers might have internet connectivity issues in that location over 2 OS's (RT and 8) at least. Sound like an access point issue? I believe the IE crashing. Ive seen that on my own Win8 computer.

A few of the computers at my BestBuy were trying to connect to the wrong WiFi point until I pointed them to the right point.

??

There were a dozen tablets on display there. I tried ~5-6 of them. The Microsoft one was the only one that had issues.

Excuses don't sell products.

DingleButt
Nov 2, 2012, 01:03 PM
??

There were a dozen tablets on display there. I tried ~5-6 of them. The Microsoft one was the only one that had issues.

Excuses don't sell products.

The comment was aimed at the expression about how all the Windows computers were having issues. You really think Windows 8/RT both have some huge bug disallowing WiFi or something?

zhenya
Nov 2, 2012, 01:07 PM
The comment was aimed at the expression about how all the Windows computers were having issues. You really think Windows 8/RT both have some huge bug disallowing WiFi or something?

My examples were at two different stores 5 days apart. There was only one Windows tablet at BB today, and it was the only one having trouble. The trouble I had with the other Samsung tablet has been covered here. The 'issues' the sales guy was referring to was not specifically in reference to the wifi, but to that and the fact that we had to reboot it. They are having more issues than the competition they are surrounded by.

spinedoc77
Nov 2, 2012, 03:19 PM
My examples were at two different stores 5 days apart. There was only one Windows tablet at BB today, and it was the only one having trouble. The trouble I had with the other Samsung tablet has been covered here. The 'issues' the sales guy was referring to was not specifically in reference to the wifi, but to that and the fact that we had to reboot it. They are having more issues than the competition they are surrounded by.

I'll still take windows on my iPad sized tablet ANY day of the week. Seriously, my ipads over the years have had their share of issues. My ipad3 loads web pages very slowly, makes me want to tear my hair out, it also only intermittently connects to wifi and drops wifi a lot after installing ios6 on it, sometimes it just exits out of a program randomly, and if I open more than 3 or 4 tabs on the internet it's a crapshoot whether it will close or stay open. The well known cure for the well known wifi problem is to forget the network and re-enter it, or is it to reboot, or is it to set HTTP Proxy to auto? There ain't no cure for the slow web page loading other than spending $829 and getting an ipad4.

I get what you are saying, Apple is the darling, people overlook there stuff and make excuses for them left and right. Microsoft doesn't have that same luxury, they will be held to a higher standard as any non Apple company is. I think Windows Pro runs pretty darn great, not perfect but so far I've had about the same degree of error as I've had with my ipad on a daily basis, little nitpickings that aren't a big deal. I think consumers will end up seeing how nice a real OS is. I already can't stand to use my ipad after having a Win Pro tablet, and I used to LOVE my ipad like there was no tomorrow. Sold my ipad3 today and am keeping the wifes ipad2 for the baby, lol since everyone on here tells me iOS is superior because even a baby can use it.

SeanR1
Nov 12, 2012, 08:05 AM
The Surface has no apps. .

Really? Not one single app? I hope they get 2300 fart apps soon so I can consider it.

cynics
Nov 12, 2012, 08:28 AM
I'll still take windows on my iPad sized tablet ANY day of the week. Seriously, my ipads over the years have had their share of issues. My ipad3 loads web pages very slowly, makes me want to tear my hair out, it also only intermittently connects to wifi and drops wifi a lot after installing ios6 on it, sometimes it just exits out of a program randomly, and if I open more than 3 or 4 tabs on the internet it's a crapshoot whether it will close or stay open. The well known cure for the well known wifi problem is to forget the network and re-enter it, or is it to reboot, or is it to set HTTP Proxy to auto? There ain't no cure for the slow web page loading other than spending $829 and getting an ipad4.

I get what you are saying, Apple is the darling, people overlook there stuff and make excuses for them left and right. Microsoft doesn't have that same luxury, they will be held to a higher standard as any non Apple company is. I think Windows Pro runs pretty darn great, not perfect but so far I've had about the same degree of error as I've had with my ipad on a daily basis, little nitpickings that aren't a big deal. I think consumers will end up seeing how nice a real OS is. I already can't stand to use my ipad after having a Win Pro tablet, and I used to LOVE my ipad like there was no tomorrow. Sold my ipad3 today and am keeping the wifes ipad2 for the baby, lol since everyone on here tells me iOS is superior because even a baby can use it.

I agree. Browsing the web with multiple tabs open is a questionable experience on my iPad 3. However my Xoom will do the same thing sometimes. I don't usually bring that up because I have had the same experience on both so it cancels each other out. It's strange because it does it with any browser I use too.

I haven't had the luxury of using an N7 or MS tab so hopefully it's better. I plan on getting an N10 (after I see more reviews) and this will be one of the first things I check.

jmgregory1
Nov 12, 2012, 09:45 AM
I'll still take windows on my iPad sized tablet ANY day of the week. Seriously, my ipads over the years have had their share of issues. My ipad3 loads web pages very slowly, makes me want to tear my hair out, it also only intermittently connects to wifi and drops wifi a lot after installing ios6 on it, sometimes it just exits out of a program randomly, and if I open more than 3 or 4 tabs on the internet it's a crapshoot whether it will close or stay open. The well known cure for the well known wifi problem is to forget the network and re-enter it, or is it to reboot, or is it to set HTTP Proxy to auto? There ain't no cure for the slow web page loading other than spending $829 and getting an ipad4.

I get what you are saying, Apple is the darling, people overlook there stuff and make excuses for them left and right. Microsoft doesn't have that same luxury, they will be held to a higher standard as any non Apple company is. I think Windows Pro runs pretty darn great, not perfect but so far I've had about the same degree of error as I've had with my ipad on a daily basis, little nitpickings that aren't a big deal. I think consumers will end up seeing how nice a real OS is. I already can't stand to use my ipad after having a Win Pro tablet, and I used to LOVE my ipad like there was no tomorrow. Sold my ipad3 today and am keeping the wifes ipad2 for the baby, lol since everyone on here tells me iOS is superior because even a baby can use it.

So which is it? First you say the iPad is so bad in loading web pages (with multiple tabs open) that you sold your iPad. Then you say the Windows tablet runs pretty darn great, not perfect but so far the same degree of error as the iPad, little nitpickings that aren't a big deal.

And what exactly, as I've asked before, is it that makes MS OS better to have on your tablet than a tablet OS?

I haven't asked, but do you work for Microsoft or a Microsoft affiliate?

spinedoc77
Nov 12, 2012, 09:58 AM
So which is it? First you say the iPad is so bad in loading web pages (with multiple tabs open) that you sold your iPad. Then you say the Windows tablet runs pretty darn great, not perfect but so far the same degree of error as the iPad, little nitpickings that aren't a big deal.

And what exactly, as I've asked before, is it that makes MS OS better to have on your tablet than a tablet OS?

I haven't asked, but do you work for Microsoft or a Microsoft affiliate?

If you want to be specific my Windows tablet can load pages faster, keep more tabs open without freezing or crashing, etc than my ipad 3 could.

As for MS OS, I think I've answered that about a million times. If you want to be specific Office until next spring, but who knows how watered down it will be for iOS/Android, Photoshop, my wife also has some print/graphics software she refuses to let go which is windows/Mac only, I also have a lot of windows only medical programs which I need to run, some of my authoring programs, I can go on. Just last week my wife finished her 90 day business action plan on my tablet using powerpoint and adobe PDF editor, she was amazed that she could work for hours as a laptop, then when she was tired she undocked it and sat in bed continuing her work on her presentation, something that she would never have achieved with her ipad, or even her 11" macbook air.

For me the true advantage is not having to put up with a tablet that has a different OS, different programs, different requirements than the ecosystem I've grown accustomed to and rely on for the past 20 years, that I think is extremely powerful and it will be surprising just how many consumers have stomached iOS, or have just waited in the wings for windows (or OSx) to truly come to a tablet, a real tablet with the form factor of the ipad, all day battery life, etc.

And no, I don't have any relationship with Microsoft at all except enjoying their products for the past 20+ years. I've also highly enjoyed Apple products and Google products as well. I want to make it clear again that there are consumers for all these companies, I don't think the ipad is going away any time soon and it will continue to be immensely popular, especially for the fashion conscious crowd who only wants simple media consumption and maybe hasn't made the connection or cares that the windows tablets can also function just as well as simple media consumption devices.

Renzatic
Nov 12, 2012, 10:52 AM
Eh, I disagree about RT's going away. It's MS' "average consumer" tablet. The cheap, but still potentially nice alternative to the higher priced, heavier tablets most of us here are gunning for. It's for people who don't need all the power the x86 platform provides. They just want something to write emails, check out Facebook, and do light productivity work on, much like the iPad.

You can argue this market isn't exactly Microsoft's forte, but it's still large enough and lucrative enough for them to risk an attempt at it.

SlCKB0Y
Nov 14, 2012, 09:04 AM
Be careful with the "It can do a lot more than the iPad can" line. That has been said about Android for forever and I couldn't find anything my N7 could do that my iPad couldn't.


Then you don't know how to use you Nexus 7 then.

jrswizzle
Nov 14, 2012, 09:19 AM
Then you don't know how to use you Nexus 7 then.

Lol I figured that and asked people to show me - couldn't come up with anything. Granted I'm not one for tinkering/rooting. Or jailbreaking for that matter.

SlCKB0Y
Nov 14, 2012, 07:21 PM
Lol I figured that and asked people to show me - couldn't come up with anything. Granted I'm not one for tinkering/rooting. Or jailbreaking for that matter.

I wasn't meaning that in an offensive way. I'm just suggesting you haven't fully explored all the stuff that Android can do, or that you haven't taken the time to critically analyse the differences.

And I also wasn't talking about stuff which needs the device to be rooted.

Perhaps for your usage pattern there is no functional difference but as someone who has used both iOS and Android extensively, there is a lot you can do on Android which you do not have access (by Apple) to do on iOS.

Rodster
Nov 16, 2012, 03:04 PM
I went today to a Best Buy store looking specifically for a Mini. I came across an ASUS 600T running Windows 8 RT and boy I came away impressed. I have read that RT seems to chug on MS Surface tablets.

On the 600T it was liquid smooth scrolling just like on the iPad. I loved the ability to jump between Metro (forgot what they are calling it now) and desktop mode. The live tiles looked sweet. Having MS Office on the tablet was an added bonus but i'm not paying $600 for the tablet. :p

NewAnger
Nov 23, 2012, 05:22 PM
My local news, channel 9 here in Denver just told people to hold off on buying the Surface. They said that if sales don't go as expected, there will be huge discounts in the spring.

Yes, they really did say to hold off.

damson34
Jan 31, 2013, 10:13 PM
Ok.... So I have been apple user since 2000 and have been apple loyal since then. The only Microsoft product I have used during that time was Office for mac and windows xp when I was in the Navy. I was admin so I had to use it all day and couldn't stand it so when we got a new person in and there weren't enough pc's for everyone I came up with the suggestion of letting me work on my MacBook pro and use a usb drive to switch and put it on the ships network. Couldn't do everything but it worked. So saying that, I have had an iPhone since they came out and have used it only, except for when I smashed it and had to use an old flip phone, yikes thT was nuts, until I replaced it. I have also had a 1st and 3rd gem iPad and loved them but I recently bought an Asus Vivo tab Rt and I have to say Win 8 on a tablet is really really good. Desktop, not so much. I don't even use my ipads anymore. On a tablet the start menu works a lot better. Iim not saying its better, but I do enjoy more and, with the do k keyboard it adds another 7hrs of battery life and makes it just like a laptop keyboard so I can use office et with is freaking awesome.

iHailCarlo
Jan 31, 2013, 10:35 PM
This thing is DOA, no apps, lack of significant storage, battling an established iOS and Android in the tablet market. MS should have re-thought this before releasing such a crappy product.

You want a tablet get an iPad, you want a great netbook get a MacBook Air. Dont waste your time and money on this joke.

OSMac
Feb 1, 2013, 06:16 AM
Asus has out now a new VivoTab Smart tablet.

It's the same size as the Rt version, same battery life, and fanless too,
but it runs full Windows 8 plus new metro apps on a Intel CloverTrail CPU, it's priced at $499 .

How can RT survive?

j_maddison
Feb 1, 2013, 10:08 AM
Asus has out now a new VivoTab Smart tablet.

It's the same size as the Rt version, but it runs full Windows 8 on a Intel CloverTrail CPU, it's priced at $499 .

How can RT survive?

I think that's an excellent point. RT is a tablet that has the advantage of Office...... but in reality it's just a normal word processor and a normal spreadsheet app and there's no Outlook.

Without apps, and without it being any good for the Business world, I'm failing to see the point of RT. Initially I was very excited, and almost ordered one for work, I'm very glad I didn't now.

The flip side with Surface pro is, there's no push functionality when it's in sleep mode (or what ever MS are calling sleep). Without that I'm just better off carrying an iPad and a MacBook Air around with me.

What I'd like to see is what Ubuntu are looking into at the moment, a mobile OS that turns into a full fledged Desktop OS when it's plugged into an external monitor. That for me at least, has some milage.

TheHateMachine
Feb 1, 2013, 11:02 AM
The flip side with Surface pro is, there's no push functionality when it's in sleep mode (or what ever MS are calling sleep). Without that I'm just better off carrying an iPad and a MacBook Air around with me.

I think Smart Connect gets around this. It regularly takes the device out of deep sleep to sync but it technically still stays in sleep mode. After it is done it goes right back into full sleep. The only requirement is of course an Intel proc, Intel network adapter and a SSD. Obviously the Pro has the proc and SSD down but I do not know who makes the wireless adapter for it.

OSMac
Feb 1, 2013, 11:56 AM
Tried the Asus Smart Intel based tablet...
Very nice , lightweight device.
Having the full windows 8 desktop was only limited by touch.

It might be better if there was an option for a pointer in desktop mode and the screen acted as a trackpad.

Having tried a couple Win 8 devices I'm finding I prefer a traditional laptop or tower with the familar Windows 7 desktop for when desktop programs are needed, otherwise the iPad is the one getting most use.

j_maddison
Feb 1, 2013, 12:07 PM
I think Smart Connect gets around this. It regularly takes the device out of deep sleep to sync but it technically still stays in sleep mode. After it is done it goes right back into full sleep. The only requirement is of course an Intel proc, Intel network adapter and a SSD. Obviously the Pro has the proc and SSD down but I do not know who makes the wireless adapter for it.

Appreciate the heads up and advice. That might prove useful, thank you.

TheHateMachine
Feb 1, 2013, 12:11 PM
Appreciate the heads up and advice. That might prove useful, thank you.

Apple uses it on their laptops, its a fairly nice feature. Intel has some game!