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pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 01:25 PM
So 24 hours with the Surface RT has made a couple of things clear... This device is certainly not for everyone, but for some people it will be fantastic. It is a joy to work on - and that's something I couldn't say about the 3 iPads I've owned. The reality is that the iPads seem like toys now - great for consumption but that's it. The Touch and Type covers (both with integrated trackpads) are a gamechanger, making even the RT an extremely competent work machine. Word/Excel work great, the activesync mail client is very intuitive once you start to get the hang of general Windows 8 gestures. Being able to use RDP with a keyboard and trackpad makes this machine pretty much fully functional for me. Also being able to actually plug in usb peripherals of all shapes and sizes, including storage, is great. It immediately makes the iPad's artificial limitations and reliance on iTunes seem even more ridiculous than they did before.

But obviously being on ARM means app limitations. I loaded up Skype, Lync, Netflix, and Citrix. That's about it. So lots of work for MS to do there... However...

The PRO is what is really going to shake things up. A similar form factor to the RT with a 1080p screen and x86 compatibility, together with the touch/type covers (and a new iMac for my desk) means a replacement for my MBP retina. Last year when I travelled abroad for 2 months I picked up a MBA, which was a good solid travel machine. The Surface makes it seem clunky and heavy.

Don't think I am an Apple hater. I love Apple hardware. I am an OS X hater, lol. But I am very glad Microsoft is doing good things here - because it's long overdue that somebody start pushing Apple... Google has failed to do so and Apple's innovation has stalled somewhat because of it. Looking forward to what the next year or two will bring from both MS and Apple...



zbarvian
Oct 27, 2012, 01:39 PM
I like Microsoft's vision of future computing more than Apple's and Google's. However, Windows 8 and Surface are such first-generation products, and I don't think it'll be until 2.0 at least that they start gaining some traction. They're truly just not fully done. I really want a Surface 2.0 to be my next computer.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 01:41 PM
Apple loves to talk about the post PC era, which doesn't exist btw, you'll still need a stand alone non mobile device at home to do heavy lifting and mass amounts of media, weather it be the next xbox, or a desktop/laptop PC sitting on a desk. You need that device.

The Surface is the true " Post PC " device, it acts as a laptop, and a tablet.

Where as the iPad is simply an overblown phone with limited Apps.

----------

I like Microsoft's vision of future computing more than Apple's and Google's. However, Windows 8 and Surface are such first-generation products, and I don't think it'll be until 2.0 at least that they start gaining some traction. They're truly just not fully done. I really want a Surface 2.0 to be my next computer.

This, exactly.

Microsoft is spot on with the future of consumer computing, and light enterprise computing, I think the Surface/Win 8 tablets are gonna do big things.

Mine JUST CAME an hour ago, I won't post to much about it till I used it for a few days.

But yes, Apps are a little lacking, but the basics are covered. And Its Microsoft, the largest software company in the world, they'll get right on it. Don't doubt that for a second.

But so far, the Build quailty of this device is insane, I'd put it easily at just as good as any Apple product, maybe even a little better.

Alot of engineering and care went into this product.

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 01:52 PM
Exactly right about the build quality...

Softwarewise, the Pro will obviously benefit from running full blown Windows 8... That instantly makes the app question moot and makes it a MacBook Air (and other ultrabook) killer...

nuckinfutz
Oct 27, 2012, 01:58 PM
It sounds a lot like the love for the Surface is coming from those people that essentially want the rehash of a laptop.

I think the general consumer has moved on from the mythology that computers would suddenly turn them into MS Office mavens eagerly churning out spreadsheets and nicely formatted word documents.

Microsoft is going to have to appeal to the masses and not just the corporate drone that wants a lighter MS Office cruncher to carry around.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 02:02 PM
Exactly right about the build quality...

Softwarewise, the Pro will obviously benefit from running full blown Windows 8... That instantly makes the app question moot and makes it a MacBook Air (and other ultrabook) killer...

Well the Macbook Air doesn't exactly sell in huge numbers compared to PC Ultrabooks, so it doesn't need killed.

And yes, the Pro will be an amazing Hybrid, I can't think of a better Tablet/Laptop Combo.

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 02:05 PM
It sounds a lot like the love for the Surface is coming from those people that essentially want the rehash of a laptop.

I think the general consumer has moved on from the mythology that computers would suddenly turn them into MS Office mavens eagerly churning out spreadsheets and nicely formatted word documents.

Microsoft is going to have to appeal to the masses and not just the corporate drone that wants a lighter MS Office cruncher to carry around.

I get what you're saying but I think you're being a little shortsighted here. To me this is about dealing with the dreaded STD (schlepping three devices). If you can have a fully functional tablet, that with a flip of the cover becomes a fully functional laptop, where is the downside? As long as MS can deliver decent battery life on the Pro, it's a winner and Windows 8's strategy really starts to make sense... And iOS all of a sudden feels incredibly limited.

Even on the consumer side, if we're going to talk about myths, how about the myth that you can have an iPad as your only computer... Impossible. Surface Pro? Complete computer replacement in a tablet form factor. Compare the price of a Surface Pro (admittedly higher than that of an iPad, and rightly so given the functionality) to the price of an iPad+11"MBA and I think it's compelling for consumers, students, and more...

nuckinfutz
Oct 27, 2012, 02:07 PM
I get what you're saying but I think you're being a little shortsighted here. To me this is about dealing with the dreaded STD (schlepping three devices). If you can have a fully functional tablet, that with a flip of the cover becomes a fully functional laptop, where is the downside? As long as MS can deliver decent battery life on the Pro, it's a winner and Windows 8's strategy really starts to make sense... And iOS all of a sudden feels incredibly limited.

Even on the consumer side, if we're going to talk about myths, how about the myth that you can have an iPad as your only computer... Impossible. Surface Pro? Complete computer replacement in a tablet form factor. Compare the price of a Surface Pro (admittedly higher than that of an iPad, and rightly so given the functionality) to the price of an iPad+11"MBA and I think it's compelling for consumers, students, and more...

I really shouldn't be so hasty to downplay the Surface. Perhaps I'll head to a store and check it out. I'm thinking about building a mini ATX rig based on Win8 and I think a Surface tablet would be more palatable for me than an Android tablet in the long run.

We'll see. Though I must admit ..having Microsoft be a non-factor is odd. It's time for them to get back in the game in a big way. Next couple of years will be fun.

dmelgar
Oct 27, 2012, 02:08 PM
It sounds a lot like the love for the Surface is coming from those people that essentially want the rehash of a laptop.

I think the general consumer has moved on from the mythology that computers would suddenly turn them into MS Office mavens eagerly churning out spreadsheets and nicely formatted word documents.

Microsoft is going to have to appeal to the masses and not just the corporate drone that wants a lighter MS Office cruncher to carry around.

The surface is a lousy expensive laptop wannabe. But its better than I expected.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 02:08 PM
It sounds a lot like the love for the Surface is coming from those people that essentially want the rehash of a laptop.

The Surface is for people who want both, its nojt so much a rehash of a laptop, and its not so much a tablet, its an entire new catogory of computing device, and clearly people like it, otherwise they would not have sold out of the 32gb model, and they wouldn't be lining up at Microsoft Stores/Retailers to get one.

I think the general consumer has moved on from the mythology that computers would suddenly turn them into MS Office mavens eagerly churning out spreadsheets and nicely formatted word documents.

The general consumer doesn't really move on from anything, the general consumer buys whatever is shiny and advertised alot.

Again, people lined up to buy up the last of the 64GB models after the 32GB sold out, so clearly, some consumers want this.

It doesn't have to sell in iPad numbers to be a success.

Microsoft is going to have to appeal to the masses and not just the corporate drone that wants a lighter MS Office cruncher to carry around.


The surface is MUCH MUCH MUCH more than an office tablet, its built to be able to be used in the enterprise world, with perfect network/system integration. Its built to be productive and easy to use.

Its also built to cater to the consumer, remember, the iPad launched with a bunch of blown up phone Apps and almost no Apps for iPads only, and it was still a success.

The Microsoft App store will grow very very quickly.

As I've been saying, the Surface isn't a full blown Laptop, tho the pro almost is, and its not a tablet per say, it can act as both. Unlike an iPad for example,. it can actually replace your laptop.

I think this new vison that Microsoft has for personal computing is a very good one. For the consumer.]

Don't get me wrong, the iPad is a great device. But its just a blown up iPhone, and yes, you can get cases for it that have kickstands, and spend more money on keyboards, and get a ton of 3rd party Apps to do what a surface will be able to do, but it'll be way more expensive, not integrate with Windows as well as a surface will ( business's do care about that ).

The iPad is something I see as a general consumer device, that only really does enterainment, Movies, eBooks, ****** games, broswing,. Stuff like that.

While the Surface/Pro/Win 8 tablets/Win RT tablets will be the creation devices.

dmelgar
Oct 27, 2012, 02:16 PM
The PRO is what is really going to shake things up. A similar form factor to the RT with a 1080p screen and x86 compatibility, together with the touch/type covers (and a new iMac for my desk) means a replacement for my MBP retina. Last year when I travelled abroad for 2 months I picked up a MBA, which was a good solid travel machine. The Surface makes it seem clunky and heavy.

Pro is likely going to be twice the price, the same price or more than a 11" MBA. Will probably weight as much or more, be as thick or thicker than a MBA. Ends up as a lousy laptop with bad keyboard, lousy trackpad for the same price. This isn't new. There have been touch windows pcs available for a long time.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 02:19 PM
The surface is a lousy expensive laptop wannabe. But its better than I expected.

Have you used the Surface? Mine just came.

The Windows RT OS is pretty buttery, not iOS buttery smooth, but very very very good. MUCH better than I expected.

The Build Quality is easily equal to Apples, in some aspects I'd say its better than Apples, Microsoft did a super great job on this.

The Type cover is EASILY the best mobile keyboard on the market, hands down. After only an hour of using it.

The screen isn't Retina, but still looks damn good.

App store for Windows RT is small, but so was the iPads store when it first came out, don't worry. The Microsoft App store will soon explode with tons of Apps.

I love my RT with its Yellow type cover already, super awesome. Whenever I don't need my 7000 dollars ( not to brag, but to give you an idea of its specs, I make simulations at big blue for a living, I need power on the go ) laptop, I'll be taking this with me, I can almost type as fast on the type cover as I can on a full sized laptop keyboard.

I'll be getting a pro as well, apps won't be a problem there, at all.

And I thought I would really hate Windows 8, but I have it installed on 2 of my PCs, installing on my bootcamp drive on my iMac atm, and I've been using it on mah new surface.

And Windows 8 is damn good. WAY better than what I expected.

----------

Pro is likely going to be twice the price, the same price or more than a 11" MBA. Will probably weight as much or more, be as thick or thicker than a MBA. Ends up as a lousy laptop with bad keyboard, lousy trackpad for the same price. This isn't new. There have been touch windows pcs available for a long time.

Have you ever touched a surface RT? Its anything but crappy.

The pro will be even better.

And no, it will be much thinner than an MBA, and have a keyboard thats just as good, and that can be detached.

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 02:28 PM
Pro is likely going to be twice the price, the same price or more than a 11" MBA. Will probably weight as much or more, be as thick or thicker than a MBA. Ends up as a lousy laptop with bad keyboard, lousy trackpad for the same price. This isn't new. There have been touch windows pcs available for a long time.

Price is unknown, but yes $999 is likely. The rest of your comments are quite misinformed; I guess you didn't bother to actually check the specs:

Surface weight: 2 lbs
MBA 11" weight: 2.38 lbs

Surface thickness: .53"
MBA 11" thickness: .68"

Surface resolution: 1920x1080
MBA 11" resolution: 1366x768

Surface power: Ivy Bridge/HD4000
MBA 11" power: Ivy Bridge/HD4000

Surface storage: 64GB or 128GB, still unknown
MBA 11" storage: 64GB

Surface ram: 2 GB
MBA 11" ram: 4 GB

I find the type cover to be incredibly usable - both the keyboard and the trackpad. Every bit as usable as the keyboard on the air. The touch cover really surprised me - it is also surprisingly usable.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 02:33 PM
I'm looking to sell my MBA in the new year for a Surface Pro. I've considered a modbook pro, but the surface pro at $1k would still be less than half the cost of the modbook pro.

I think it's going to be great for sketchbook pro, illustrator & corel painter 12 with the included Stylus with the surface pro.

Would I prefer a proper tablet to run Mac OS instead.. yes.. But that's not going to happen just yet anyway. So the surface pro looks to me like the best combination of decently designed hardware aesthetics and software.

dmelgar
Oct 27, 2012, 02:52 PM
Price is unknown, but yes $999 is likely. The rest of your comments are quite misinformed; I guess you didn't bother to actually check the specs:

Surface weight: 2 lbs
MBA 11" weight: 2.38 lbs

Surface thickness: .53"
MBA 11" thickness: .68"

Surface resolution: 1920x1080
MBA 11" resolution: 1366x768

Surface power: Ivy Bridge/HD4000
MBA 11" power: Ivy Bridge/HD4000

Surface storage: 64GB or 128GB, still unknown
MBA 11" storage: 64GB

Surface ram: 2 GB
MBA 11" ram: 4 GB

I find the type cover to be incredibly usable - both the keyboard and the trackpad. Every bit as usable as the keyboard on the air. The touch cover really surprised me - it is also surprisingly usable.
Doesn't sound very different from what I said.
Does the thickness you list include the type cover? Need to count it in.

The type cover seems ok as a keyboard, still awful small trackpad vs the MBA.

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 02:57 PM
Doesn't sound very different from what I said.
Does the thickness you list include the type cover? Need to count it in.

The type cover seems ok as a keyboard, still awful small trackpad vs the MBA.

Good call - .12" for touch cover makes it .65" Surface vs .68" MBA. However, just try and remove the keyboard from your MBA to use it as a tablet :D

Yes the trackpad is smaller, however I had no issue navigating with it whatsoever - plus I actually found that I only used it for a few specific things, and was using touch for probably 85% of what I was doing. Touching the MBA screen gets you nothing but smudges ;)

You've got to admit you were completely off wrt the weight, with the Surface not being heavier but actually coming in nearly half a pound lighter. Also, the Pro's 1920x1080 resolutions is great - my biggest gripe about the MBA is the 1366x768 resolution (also my biggest gripe about the RT).

dmelgar
Oct 27, 2012, 03:05 PM
Have you used the Surface? Mine just came.

The Windows RT OS is pretty buttery, not iOS buttery smooth, but very very very good. MUCH better than I expected.

The Build Quality is easily equal to Apples, in some aspects I'd say its better than Apples, Microsoft did a super great job on this.

The Type cover is EASILY the best mobile keyboard on the market, hands down. After only an hour of using it.

The screen isn't Retina, but still looks damn good.

App store for Windows RT is small, but so was the iPads store when it first came out, don't worry. The Microsoft App store will soon explode with tons of Apps.

I love my RT with its Yellow type cover already, super awesome. Whenever I don't need my 7000 dollars ( not to brag, but to give you an idea of its specs, I make simulations at big blue for a living, I need power on the go ) laptop, I'll be taking this with me, I can almost type as fast on the type cover as I can on a full sized laptop keyboard.

I'll be getting a pro as well, apps won't be a problem there, at all.

And I thought I would really hate Windows 8, but I have it installed on 2 of my PCs, installing on my bootcamp drive on my iMac atm, and I've been using it on mah new surface.

And Windows 8 is damn good. WAY better than what I expected.

----------



Have you ever touched a surface RT? Its anything but crappy.

The pro will be even better.

And no, it will be much thinner than an MBA, and have a keyboard thats just as good, and that can be detached.

Yes I have tried Surface.

$7000 Windows laptop? Is that even possible? Certainly not comparable to the Surface's specs. You can easily get a cheap junky laptop for less than the price of a Surface w keyboard. Here's an expensive one (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4960969&Sku=S170-155422&cm_re=Homepage-_-Spot%2001a-_-CatId_17_S170-155422) for $599 as a random example.

No way you can say the type keyboard is anywhere near as good as the MBA keyboard and trackpad. Especially trackpad. Look at the trackpad size. Detachable. Yes. That is true.

My complaint is that its a lousy laptop and tablet.
Lousy laptop because the keyboard options aren't as good as a laptop. Trackpad way too small. But you're still forced to use the keyboard and trackpad with Office because Microsoft couldnt figure out how to make it anywhere near touch capable. Its not easy and Microsoft didn't even try. The ribbon interface is a travesty. Tons of tiny controls taking up vertical space in a 16:9 aspect ratio small display thats very short on vertical space to start with. But complaining about Office is another topic.

If you essentially need a table and a keyboard to use it. Might as well use a laptop that does it better.

If you want a tablet, you don't want to lug around a keyboard and you want/need the apps to be touch enabled. Its a travesty that Windows RT has the metro & window modes. It was stupid enough that Windows 8 has both, but RT has no real need for the windows mode since Microsoft won't allow any 3rd party apps to use that mode. Its only there because they couldnt rewrite Office in time.

Overall, I will admit the Surface was better than I expected. I'm not wild about the idea of the Metro gestures, but once you learn them that provide some power.

But Windows is Windows. When I played with it I was right away greeted with required updates and even anti-virus scan updates. Ah yes. The good old days of spending most of my time maintaining my machine instead of using it. Driver updates, OS updates, antivirus constant scans. The good old days.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 03:19 PM
Yes I have tried Surface.

$7000 Windows laptop? Is that even possible?

Good, spend some time with it.

And yes, I have SLI 680M's, a Overclocked 3rd Gen i7 at 4.3ghz, triple SSD's, and 32gb of ram, attached to an 18 inch screen.

I build simulations for pretty much anything people need ( I work for Big Ole Blue ), and when I'm on the go, I need all that power to get things done when I'm out and about.

No way you can say the type keyboard is anywhere near as good as the MBA keyboard and trackpad. Especially trackpad. Look at the trackpad size. Detachable. Yes. That is true.

No, its not as good as a keyboard, but its DAMN CLOSE, I cant type at full speed on it for sure, but I can get pretty close, and its MUCH better than any iPad keyboard I've ever seen, even the high end logitech ones. So either the 3rd party vendors, or Apple is gonna have to step that up.

My complaint is that its a lousy laptop and tablet.
Lousy laptop because the keyboard options aren't as good as a laptop. Trackpad way too small. But you're still forced to use the keyboard and trackpad with Office because Microsoft couldnt figure out how to make it anywhere near touch capable. Its not easy and Microsoft didn't even try. The ribbon interface is a travesty. Tons of tiny controls taking up vertical space in a 16:9 aspect ratio small display thats very short on vertical space to start with. But complaining about Office is another topic.

I could go on for pages, BUT, let me make it simple. Your looking at the surface wrong, just wrong. its like thinking the iPad is a laptop replacement, it just isn't and the surface isnt' so much a laptop replacement, but an amazing suppelment imo. The best yet,

If you essentially need a table and a keyboard to use it. Might as well use a laptop that does it better.

But, when I'm done with work, if I'm out in the feild, and I don't feel like having a laptop to lug around my hotel room, I just un click my keyboard, lay on the couch, or bed, turn the TV on, and use it as a tablet, I have the best of both worlds. I can't do that with my Laptop, or an MBA, and I can't do it with an iPad, because the work I was doing, wouldn't have gotten done in the first place.

If you want a tablet, you don't want to lug around a keyboard and you want/need the apps to be touch enabled. Its a travesty that Windows RT has the metro & window modes. It was stupid enough that Windows 8 has both, but RT has no real need for the windows mode since Microsoft won't allow any 3rd party apps to use that mode. Its only there because they couldnt rewrite Office in time.

I think you don't realize. The keyboard is attached magneticly, it has a virtual **** keyboard just like the iPad, if you dont want to " lug around the keyboard " which weighs next to nothing, don't take it with you. leave it at home, it offers choice.


And Windows RT looks like its pretty good if I'm honest, its a step above iOS, which can't even multiask, my GF has an iPad 3. Don't get me wrong, that screen is awesome, and its built so so so so so good, ( so is the surface ), but the fact is, I can be typing an email.......then I get a text....read the text....go back to the email App....and all my text is gone...huh?

Overall, I will admit the Surface was better than I expected. I'm not wild about the idea of the Metro gestures, but once you learn them that provide some power.

There are only 4, and I'm starting to get into it, they've made some awesome innvoations with the surface, and I already love mine, sure the Apps aren't there, yet, but they will be. Remeber, Microsoft is the king of software.

But Windows is Windows. When I played with it I was right away greeted with required updates and even anti-virus scan updates. Ah yes. The good old days of spending most of my time maintaining my machine instead of using it. Driver updates, OS updates, antivirus constant scans. The good old days.

Windows RT is immune to virus and malware at the moment, and its secuirty is very good.

Now, maybe thats how your computing life turned out, but I've NEVER had a Virus on my 98/ME/XP/2000/Vista/7 machines, ever not one. Not ever, and they install updates when I'm asleep at 4am.

And OSX does driver updates, OS updates, and it has anti virus built in. And my Macs over the past 10 years have spend a decent amount of time in the Apple store being repaired ( I hate you iMac G5, Power Mac G5, 2011 imac, pismo, your all unreliable ****. But I love you anyway )

And if constant scans are going on, you must have a terrible 3rd party dumpster Aplication taking care of it, like Norton.

I think the Surface is an awesome product, I would its build quailty above Apples for the the time being, lits pretty fast, feels good, finger tracking is awesome, the gestures are good, battery life so far as been good.

People lined up for these products

Scrub175
Oct 27, 2012, 03:19 PM
Very good unbiased reports here. It's really interesting to see real market innovation from MS as it will really drive all tech companies. I'm almost fully invested in apple now but am interested in what Microsoft could transform into finally. I never understood why my Xbox could not just connect with my desktop or laptop because they all are powered by Microsoft. This new ecosystem is very interesting. I love my Xbox and functionality provided from that device. It would take a great deal for me to abandon an iPhone and iPad though. More so the iPhone.

My question is about the MS App Store... Will they support developers and embrace that community as a key to success? I feel apple really sees that as the path to hardware success, but imposes strict standards. I like seeing stats from apple about how much has been paid to developers. Google appears to be the opposite, not really publishing what has been paid out to the dev community. Is there a better place to evolve the development community that would ensure success of the MS App Store and will MS be brave/smart enough to embrace it? Will Microsoft protect the hardware brands to keep as few standards as possible to prevent App Store dilution like google?

There is a right course that is pretty much laid out, will MS realize this and use the tremendous resources they have to gamble on and reap the rewards? I think MS is prepared to do this with the proof being the release of windows 8, as it's a major departure of what's safe and often criticized so far. Pretty brave first step.

All this MS change has given me pause on purchasing any more apple devices until I learn more about the MS ecosystem. I am looking to purchase an iMac and will be pretty much complete with the Apple transition.

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 03:52 PM
I like Microsoft's vision of future computing more than Apple's and Google's. However, Windows 8 and Surface are such first-generation products, and I don't think it'll be until 4.0 at least that they start gaining some traction. They're truly just not fully done. I really want a Surface 2.0 to be my next computer.

Corrected. If you remember MS has been doing tablets for nearly 13 years now, though not tablet hardware. They horrible at it back in 2000 and are still horrible at it now. Only difference now is they got a fancy new coat on their devices.

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 03:57 PM
Always funny to see the fanbois put Microsoft down. RIM said the same thing about activesync for years... Then Microsoft quietly and unceremoniously put them in their place... Luckily for Apple they're a lot smarter than most of their customers...

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 03:58 PM
Well the Macbook Air doesn't exactly sell in huge numbers compared to PC Ultrabooks, so it doesn't need killed.

And yes, the Pro will be an amazing Hybrid, I can't think of a better Tablet/Laptop Combo.

I can, an iPad running a quad core A15+ arm cpu, and OSX Mountain Lion(or what 10.9 would be called).

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 04:00 PM
I can, an iPad running a quad core A15+ arm cpu, and OSX Mountain Lion(or what 10.9 would be called).

And knowing, Apple, you'll pay 2,000 dollars for that, and it still won't be able to multi task :P

pesos
Oct 27, 2012, 04:01 PM
And knowing, Apple, you'll pay 2,000 dollars for that, and it still won't be able to multi task :P

Or plug in peripherals without at least a $29.99 adapter :D

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 04:11 PM
I'm looking to sell my MBA in the new year for a Surface Pro. I've considered a modbook pro, but the surface pro at $1k would still be less than half the cost of the modbook pro.

I think it's going to be great for sketchbook pro, illustrator & corel painter 12 with the included Stylus with the surface pro.
Problem is we don't know what technology the Surface pen is and how the quality really is. It could be as good as wacom is, or it could be a sold work in progress like N-Trig. The Modbook on the other hand is using the tried and true wacom digitizer, but is bogged down by its high price, and Intel cpu.

dmelgar
Oct 27, 2012, 04:16 PM
Good, spend some time with it.
I said I did.


I could go on for pages, BUT, let me make it simple. Your looking at the surface wrong, just wrong. its like thinking the iPad is a laptop replacement, it just isn't and the surface isnt' so much a laptop replacement, but an amazing suppelment imo. The best yet, couch, or bed, turn the TV on, and use it as a tablet, I have the best of both worlds. I can't do that with my Laptop, or an MBA, and I can't do it with an iPad, because the work I was doing, wouldn't have gotten done in the first place.

The point is its a compromised as a laptop and tablet. Maybe it works in your case. I thought you were using your giant laptop in the field? If you don't need a laptop just use an iPad which is a better tablet, or a laptop if you need a laptop.
i can believe that folks will find scenarios where having a mediocre laptop and tablet is preferable to having to carry around two devices.


I think you don't realize. The keyboard is attached magneticly, it has a virtual **** keyboard just like the iPad, if you dont want to " lug around the keyboard " which weighs next to nothing, don't take it with you. leave it at home, it offers choice.

Of course I realize. How can anyone see it and not realize its detachable. Its practically the only thing Microsoft talked about during the kickoff and in their ads. They almost never mention touch but they love their keyboard. Can't forget that magical click it makes. Worth the price right there.

But without the keyboard, the Windows (non-metro) mode is practically unusable because all the touch areas are so tiny.


And Windows RT looks like its pretty good if I'm honest, its a step above iOS, which can't even multiask, my GF has an iPad 3. Don't get me wrong, that screen is awesome, and its built so so so so so good, ( so is the surface ), but the fact is, I can be typing an email.......then I get a text....read the text....go back to the email App....and all my text is gone...huh?

Apparently not very educated yourself if you don't understand that iOS does multitask. The particular scenario you mention may be an issue, but don't misrepresent the entire operating system.

Remeber, Microsoft is the king of software.

Microsoft is the king of 20 year old Windows software that they forced on consumers by strong arming PC vendors. They got into trouble as a monopoly for it


Now, maybe thats how your computing life turned out, but I've NEVER had a Virus on my 98/ME/XP/2000/Vista/7 machines, ever not one. Not ever, and they install updates when I'm asleep at 4am.

I worked for IBM for many years and had to constantly deal with systems being taken over to apply security patches. Security guidelines there force everyone run to a very stringent antivirus. Both at work and at home I have run into viruses. Windows inherent insecurity from Active-X made it hard to deal with. I'm sure they've improved security in Vista/7.

And OSX does driver updates, OS updates, and it has anti virus built in. And my Macs over the past 10 years have spend a decent amount of time in the Apple store being repaired ( I hate you iMac G5, Power Mac G5, 2011 imac, pismo, your all unreliable ****. But I love you anyway )

Please. Not sounding very credible. Comparing Apple's "antivirus" which is a tiny program that does practically nothing to a Symantec antivirus scan is not even close.

MacRumorUser
Oct 27, 2012, 04:18 PM
Problem is we don't know what technology the Surface pen is and how the quality really is. It could be as good as wacom is, or it could be a sold work in progress like N-Trig. The Modbook on the other hand is using the tried and true wacom digitizer, but is bogged down by its high price, and Intel cpu.

Yes this is true. Will certainly wait and see what it reviews like and hands on with the surface pen.

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 04:22 PM
And knowing, Apple, you'll pay 2,000 dollars for that, and it still won't be able to multi task :P
And yet they will sell tons have people lining up for days.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 04:24 PM
And yet they will sell tons have people lining up for days.

Yep.

At this point, for the iBoys, Apple could produce cow turds in a box, call it innovation, and sell 50 million of em.

northernbaldy
Oct 27, 2012, 04:24 PM
I'm looking forward to having a play with one
However, I'm still a little sceptical, I've never been a fan of windows

coldmack
Oct 27, 2012, 04:34 PM
Yes this is true. Will certainly wait and see what it reviews like and hands on with the surface pen.

I really hope the pen turns out good and popular so we can finally get native support from Apple, because taking notes on a capacitive pen is just not as elegant a digitzer solution.

G51989
Oct 27, 2012, 04:43 PM
I said I did.

How much time? I just bought a surface RT, I honestly thought I would hate it, cave and go buy an iPad for my tablet needs, but I'm starting love and love it more and more.

The point is its a compromised as a laptop and tablet. .

It doesn't make any compromises.

I thought you were using your giant laptop in the field?

I do, but when the work day is over, and I'm in some random city, and the work is done, I don't feel like lugging around a 13 pound laptop, so the surface, has the same WIndows like Feel that I know and love. And its tiny, so I can use it for my personal use.

Hell, I already bought yet another EU power adapter kit, and one for asia to, so my laptop and surface will work no matter where I go.

you don't need a laptop just use an iPad which is a better tablet,

That is an opinion,. I've used iPads before, and as I said my GF has an iPad 3, and its a nice machine. But for me, the surface works better as a light laptop, and as a tablet, it has alreadyd been proving to work very well.

When the iPad comes with a badass keyboard/kickstand/OS that can multi task, I'll be interested.

i can believe that folks will find scenarios where having a mediocre laptop and tablet is preferable to having to carry around two devices.

The surface RT IS a medicore laptop when you want it to be, and its ALSO a tablet when you want it to be, thats the idea.

Of course I realize. How can anyone see it and not realize its detachable. Its practically the only thing Microsoft talked about during the kickoff and in their ads. They almost never mention touch but they love their keyboard. Can't forget that magical click it makes. Worth the price right there.

Good.

Yes, its a GOOD feature, its a very very very well done feature. The kickstand as well, super well done. Keyboard and kickstands are done better than any iPad case you can get.

But without the keyboard, the Windows (non-metro) mode is practically unusable because all the touch areas are so tiny.

No ****.

Thats why we have Metro, thats the entire idea behind the new windows, you can have your classic desktop when your mouse and type cover are plugged in, and get real work done.

OR, when you want to relax and consume content, snap off the keyboard, unplug the mouse ( or not if your using the trackpad which is VERY good btw ). Lay down on your bed or couch, and consume away.

I've already used it for that, and for what is is, a hybrid? it the best out atm.

Apparently not very educated yourself if you don't understand that iOS does multitask. The particular scenario you mention may be an issue, but don't misrepresent the entire operating system.

It is IMPOSSIBLE on iOS to have more than one program on the screen at the same time, hence, no multi tasking.

Microsoft is the king of 20 year old Windows software that they forced on consumers by strong arming PC vendors. They got into trouble as a monopoly for it

That hasn't gone on for over a decade, and if Macs are so much better, why does the Windows PC still exist? Windows is a good OS. And that " strong arming " ended well over a decade ago.

I worked for IBM for many years and had to constantly deal with systems being taken over to apply security patches. Security guidelines there force everyone run to a very stringent antivirus. Both at work and at home I have run into viruses. Windows inherent insecurity from Active-X made it hard to deal with. I'm sure they've improved security in Vista/7.

I still work for Intercourse Blue Man, and we don't have alot of issues with anything XP and up, yes, Active X is a nesscary evil, but they cleaned up their act in that aspect, we currently don't run anything outside of the Microsoft anti virus system, at least in my department ( I work in simulations for a few departments, I've seen deep gene in person, sex :D )

Please. Not sounding very credible. Comparing Apple's "antivirus" which is a tiny program that does practically nothing to a Symantec antivirus scan is not even close.

Sure it is, and you know it is, it works in very much the same way Windows Antivirus does, it just doesn't have as much to do because of, theres not alot of macs in existence.

Virus's really aren't an issue in Windows anymore, at least for my deparmtne, ( we use a combination of Windows 7 Pro, and our in house UNIX OS )

Night Spring
Oct 27, 2012, 06:27 PM
And Windows RT looks like its pretty good if I'm honest, its a step above iOS, which can't even multiask, my GF has an iPad 3. Don't get me wrong, that screen is awesome, and its built so so so so so good, ( so is the surface ), but the fact is, I can be typing an email.......then I get a text....read the text....go back to the email App....and all my text is gone...huh?

Huh? That doesn't sound right. I know when I write email on my iPad, I've switched away from email to other apps and come back to find my half-finished email still there. Granted, there were a few odd times when the email disappeared for some reason or other, and I haven't quite figured out exactly what causes it -- but the point is, it doesn't happen often enough that I need to spend time investigating the cause.

Yes, iOS's implementation of multitasking leaves a lot to be desired, but please don't spread the misinformation that it doesn't multitask at all.

It is IMPOSSIBLE on iOS to have more than one program on the screen at the same time, hence, no multi tasking.

Wait, that's a different issue from what you orignally complained about. And no, I don't agree with that definition of multitasking. If I'm reading a book on my iPad while Pandora is playing music in the background, what would you say that is if you aren't going to call it "multitasking"?

Compile 'em all
Oct 28, 2012, 07:08 AM
"Apple should respect the surface pro'


Sure thing, buddy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwhv8U614Vo&feature=youtu.be

spinedoc77
Oct 28, 2012, 08:56 AM
Yep.

At this point, for the iBoys, Apple could produce cow turds in a box, call it innovation, and sell 50 million of em.

They already do, they called it the ipad mini. :p

Technarchy
Oct 28, 2012, 10:36 AM
I like RT.

I don't like RT enough to replace my iPad with a Surface.

I still prefer the light, speediness, and intuitiveness of iOS.

pesos
Oct 28, 2012, 10:47 AM
"Apple should respect the surface pro'


Sure thing, buddy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwhv8U614Vo&feature=youtu.be

I could make a stupid video making the iPad look bad on purpose too. This guy is either a fanboi or a moron. The first thing I did was pull up skydrive, open a doc, edit it and save it to the desktop; then email it back out. Worked perfectly and took no time at all.

michaeljohn
Oct 29, 2012, 04:02 AM
So 24 hours with the Surface RT has made a couple of things clear... This device is certainly not for everyone, but for some people it will be fantastic. It is a joy to work on - and that's something I couldn't say about the 3 iPads I've owned. The reality is that the iPads seem like toys now - great for consumption but that's it. The Touch and Type covers (both with integrated trackpads) are a gamechanger, making even the RT an extremely competent work machine.

Since you bought one, maybe you could explain this to me. Why did you pay $600+ for a tablet with a keyboard when you can get a more powerful laptop with a larger display for half the price? Seems to me every tablet is a toy. A true working professional is always going to go for a laptop over a tablet.

opinioncircle
Oct 29, 2012, 09:41 AM
The way the marketplace looks is pretty good. Pretty excited on my end to see the pro, I hope this could be a replacement for my 3 year old uMBP.

I have no particular ins on the Apple eco system, and am glad to have made such a choice. Keeping options open is the name of the game IMO.

The way the Surface looks is really really good, and only the Air can compete with it (in my eyes).

I do hope the Surface does well, as everybody else. It'll keep the inovation going forward, or will break us all :D:p

ReallyBigFeet
Oct 29, 2012, 09:51 AM
So 24 hours with the Surface RT has made a couple of things clear... This device is certainly not for everyone, but for some people it will be fantastic.


If the Surface isn't for "everyone" then by definition, its a niche product for a niche market. Since Apple's product strategy is devices that define the tablet segment, appealing to the broadest market demographics, why on earth would they be interested in a niche product for a niche market?

Microsoft aimed there (if they aimed at all) because they realize they can't compete for the broader market. Its owned by Apple.


Even on the consumer side, if we're going to talk about myths, how about the myth that you can have an iPad as your only computer... Impossible. Surface Pro? Complete computer replacement in a tablet form factor. Compare the price of a Surface Pro (admittedly higher than that of an iPad, and rightly so given the functionality) to the price of an iPad+11"MBA and I think it's compelling for consumers, students, and more...

Now who is spouting myths? As a niche device, this won't be a replacement computer for everyone.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 10:07 AM
Since you bought one, maybe you could explain this to me. Why did you pay $600+ for a tablet with a keyboard when you can get a more powerful laptop with a larger display for half the price? Seems to me every tablet is a toy. A true working professional is always going to go for a laptop over a tablet.

Umm... Is this a serious question? By your logic, why would anyone buy a MBA? And your statement that a "true working pro" is always going to go for a laptop is shortsighted. Kind of like those that 10-15 years ago said that a "true working pro" is always going to go for a desktop over a laptop...

----------

If the Surface isn't for "everyone" then by definition, its a niche product for a niche market. Since Apple's product strategy is devices that define the tablet segment, appealing to the broadest market demographics, why on earth would they be interested in a niche product for a niche market?

Microsoft aimed there (if they aimed at all) because they realize they can't compete for the broader market. Its owned by Apple.

Now who is spouting myths? As a niche device, this won't be a replacement computer for everyone.

Umm, the iPad isn't for everyone either. Your comments aren't really making sense. I was specifically talking about RT vs. Win8. And as I mentioned, this could be a replacement computer for certain people, not for everyone. Unlike an ipad, the Surface RT is completely capable of serving as the one computing device that someone owns - student scenarios in particular come to mind -- and my original statement was that the SURFACE PRO could be a replacement; which it could for anyone as it has the exact same guts as a MacBook Air. Maybe you are confusing the RT and Pro. As for competing for the broader market, it's hilarious to count MS out at this point. You could have said the same thing about Apple - why even stay in the computing business if you're only going to get 2-3% of the market? Well things have certainly changed haven't they? Same with smartphones - that arena was "owned" by RIM just 4-5 years ago - and look at it now...

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 10:55 AM
The way the marketplace looks is pretty good. Pretty excited on my end to see the pro, I hope this could be a replacement for my 3 year old uMBP.

I have no particular ins on the Apple eco system, and am glad to have made such a choice. Keeping options open is the name of the game IMO.

The way the Surface looks is really really good, and only the Air can compete with it (in my eyes).

I do hope the Surface does well, as everybody else. It'll keep the inovation going forward, or will break us all :D:p

I was pleasantly surprised at the Windows store as well. I kept hearing "ghost town" and such, but there are actually a ton of apps on there. I never really purchased that many apps on my ipad over 3 years, maybe 50-75 apps and really only used maybe a dozen of them. I see a ridiculous amount of redundancy in the ipad store, fart app number 45,672, etc.

I've got most of the apps I need from the app store so far, but the great thing is that I can just download the desktop version if there is no app and have full functionality without the compromise of an "app".

noteple
Oct 29, 2012, 11:01 AM
The Surface is for those who want a Surface.

Just another name in a long line of "I want a Playbook, HP touchpad, Galaxy tab", etc.......

The keyboard is not great more like pounding on a plastic mat.
Sure it's usable but if you want a typist keyboard you have to lug one along or choose a different platform.

Yes the screen is not retina quality but gosh darn if it ain't just great.
Swell

Build quality, did you expect it to come Pre broken?

And it's got those start of the art USB 2.0 connectors.

And look at those high resolution cameras, 720 is HD right. Well it's just a good as 1080 honest.

Surface doesn't have a tenth of the apps that were available for the first iPad much less all the iPhone apps that ran on the first iPad.
But you just wait, it's going to get better.

And I'm telling you it sold out on launch day. All the cheapest version we're snapped up like hot cakes.
While the 64gb model just sat there for days. But don't you worry none because those who missed out on the 32's got themselves a memory upgrade and a higher price too. The best of both worlds.

The Surface commercial with ding dongs jumping up and down and snapping covers on and off and they want to be taken seriously. What are you selling? Seriously?

And don't be hiding around the skirts of the Surface Pro.
You won't be seeing one of those until after the New Year and it will be another in a long, long line laptop tablet hybrids.

Maybe this is it. Pen for Windows has needed an upgrade since NCR tried to sell it in the 90's.
After almost 20 years I'm not so sure.

OP all kidding aside you sound like the spokes person for Microsoft.
Maybe you should copy your "please respect me" thread to all the other Android forums also.

robanga
Oct 29, 2012, 11:05 AM
I applaud MS for doing something outside the box whatever the outcome. The confusion between RT and Pro is an issue though.

I can see long time Windows fans embracing surface and some businesses. The masses? maybe not.

MacRumorUser
Oct 29, 2012, 11:18 AM
Slashgear have the best video walkthrough of Surface RT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW1h5D-Cm4Y



Certainly has me looking forward to Surface pro.

ReallyBigFeet
Oct 29, 2012, 11:45 AM
Umm, the iPad isn't for everyone either. Your comments aren't really making sense. I was specifically talking about RT vs. Win8. And as I mentioned, this could be a replacement computer for certain people, not for everyone. Unlike an ipad, the Surface RT is completely capable of serving as the one computing device that someone owns - student scenarios in particular come to mind -- and my original statement was that the SURFACE PRO could be a replacement; which it could for anyone as it has the exact same guts as a MacBook Air. Maybe you are confusing the RT and Pro. As for competing for the broader market, it's hilarious to count MS out at this point. You could have said the same thing about Apple - why even stay in the computing business if you're only going to get 2-3% of the market? Well things have certainly changed haven't they? Same with smartphones - that arena was "owned" by RIM just 4-5 years ago - and look at it now...

Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

And the market isn't going to differentiate Win RT from Win Pro when it comes to the Surface. They will look at it and say "Tablet" and that's about as far as it gets. Microsoft has no idea who they are building the Surface for, not in the least. They are a 'build to specs' company and that story, while it resonates with a minority of the potential users out there, is a niche story.

Great product strategies are all about stories. I highly recommend this current article for a really good perspective on this. (http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/28/tech-storytelling/)

Microsoft has no story. Other than a confusing one.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 11:51 AM
Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.


Ah, so it's all about current market share, I see. A market that Apple has had all to itself up until quite recently. Once again, by your logic the iPhone was pointless because RIM had things locked up 5 years ago. Guess we'll just wait and see.

ReallyBigFeet
Oct 29, 2012, 11:56 AM
Guess we'll just wait and see.

I think you'll not have to wait that long to see the error of Microsoft's ways.

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:01 PM
Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

And the market isn't going to differentiate Win RT from Win Pro when it comes to the Surface. They will look at it and say "Tablet" and that's about as far as it gets. Microsoft has no idea who they are building the Surface for, not in the least. They are a 'build to specs' company and that story, while it resonates with a minority of the potential users out there, is a niche story.

Great product strategies are all about stories. I highly recommend this current article for a really good perspective on this. (http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/28/tech-storytelling/)

Microsoft has no story. Other than a confusing one.

Microsoft strategy is sound, it's just that their execution is terrible. Just like the desktop to laptop revolution years ago we are now in a laptop to tablet revolution. Having a familiar OS like Windows will propel users into the tablet world much sooner, if we had iOS on laptops what would the world be like today.

With that said MS has put up some serious obstacles in its own way, it's a shame because they have a real chance of failing because of these issues which are obvious to everyone else except Microsoft. RT/Pro fragmentation and consumer confusion, very bad and will give a lot of consumers a bad taste. RT should have never seen the light of day, I'm using WinPro on an Atom processor and I'm seeing all day battery life with no compromises, but still have a full Win8 OS setup. MS should have released ONLY windows 8 pro, leaving RT on their phones only.

The other bad gamble was on the OS. I'm a huge MS fanboy, but even I have to admit they are way too fragmented and directionless with Windows 8. They managed to both ostracize the business side, and confuse the consumer side at the same time. What they are doing with Win8 is awesome in idea, but execution is not there and it's going to hurt them.

I still think there will be quite a lot of consumers who go for the Atom full Windows units. There is only so much time before people realize they don't have a real OS in the ipad, it will work for many people and the ipad will continue to sell a ton, but there will also be many consumers who need something more and hopefully MS will wake up and figure out what they are doing wrong.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:14 PM
Your story is a niche story, Spinedoc. Cuz consumers, you know, Apple, Magic, one solution to all problems. Microsoft will fail because liptstick on a pig. They just don't get it. :blank thousand yard stare:

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:33 PM
Your story is a niche story, Spinedoc. Cuz consumers, you know, Apple, Magic, one solution to all problems. Microsoft will fail because liptstick on a pig. They just don't get it. :blank thousand yard stare:

What does that mean? I have no idea what you are trying to say, you sound like a caveman lol, me Apple, me win...

Microsoft won't fail because this isn't a football game. Let's discuss the pros and cons of each ecosystem and strategy instead of grunting ... Apple ugh win.
:p

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:36 PM
That's kinda what I was going for. I was making fun of Big Feet Dude for repeating the same tired phrases most people throw out when they go on an anti-MS tirade. :P

ReallyBigFeet
Oct 29, 2012, 12:41 PM
Microsoft strategy is sound, it's just that their execution is terrible. Just like the desktop to laptop revolution years ago we are now in a laptop to tablet revolution. Having a familiar OS like Windows will propel users into the tablet world much sooner, if we had iOS on laptops what would the world be like today.

With that said MS has put up some serious obstacles in its own way, it's a shame because they have a real chance of failing because of these issues which are obvious to everyone else except Microsoft. RT/Pro fragmentation and consumer confusion, very bad and will give a lot of consumers a bad taste. RT should have never seen the light of day, I'm using WinPro on an Atom processor and I'm seeing all day battery life with no compromises, but still have a full Win8 OS setup. MS should have released ONLY windows 8 pro, leaving RT on their phones only.

The other bad gamble was on the OS. I'm a huge MS fanboy, but even I have to admit they are way too fragmented and directionless with Windows 8. They managed to both ostracize the business side, and confuse the consumer side at the same time. What they are doing with Win8 is awesome in idea, but execution is not there and it's going to hurt them.

I still think there will be quite a lot of consumers who go for the Atom full Windows units. There is only so much time before people realize they don't have a real OS in the ipad, it will work for many people and the ipad will continue to sell a ton, but there will also be many consumers who need something more and hopefully MS will wake up and figure out what they are doing wrong.

I won't disagree with you on the part about their strategy being sound. But as you've already said (and I totally agree), their execution of this strategy is terrible. They have lost their way. Totally. And lost MOST consumers along the way as well.

Where Microsoft can succeed is where they often do already...in corporations. There is no viable substitute for Windows (pick your flavor) for extremely large scale enterprises. Fortune 100 if you will. And all those users will often pick up a personal computing device to match their work OS. However, with more and more corporate citizens being issued laptops (I can't remember the last time I saw a desktop on a persons actual desk at the office), this effectively cannibalized Microsoft's past strategy of "sneaking the OS home" via the corporate users. People just literally take their laptops home with them now. And at home, they have all their preferred widgets and gizmo's (increasingly Apple products). I work cross-platform all the time and don't even carry a laptop that much anymore....just grab the closest one to me. Dropbox ensures I'm always current for version control purposes. And I'm betting from looking at all those other users that do likewise that even taking the work-issued Windows PC is a dying habit.

This is exactly why corporations have been adopting scores of iOS and Android devices while forcing RIM into oblivion. Users all but DEMANDED it, often starting with the CEO. How many users do you think will push their Win RT or Win Pro tablets onto corporate IT? Well, hopefully not an issue as they should "just work" if they are Windows devices, right? Well certainly not true for RT as we both know. So that line is doomed to fail. But iPads? Sure, corporate IT now supports those!

The world has changed. Drastically. Microsoft, unfortunately, has not.

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:44 PM
That's kinda what I was going for. I was making fun of Big Feet Dude for repeating the same tired phrases most people throw out when they go on an anti-MS tirade. :P

Ahh Lol my bad then, you did a great job!!

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:48 PM
I won't disagree with you on the part about their strategy being sound. But as you've already said (and I totally agree), their execution of this strategy is terrible. They have lost their way. Totally. And lost MOST consumers along the way as well.

Yeah? And how have they lost their way exactly? Because they didn't offer up a simplified, exclusively consumer oriented tablet solution like Apple does? That worked for Apple, and worked well, but it's not the only path there is to follow if you want to create a compelling device.

Truthfully, your argument only works if you assume the buying public are braindead sheep who do nothing but impulse buy. While you can't deny there are some people like that, most everyone in the world does a goodly bit of hard thinking before plunking down over $500+ on something.

The world has changed. Drastically. Microsoft, unfortunately, has not.

And after all the griping we've seen about how MS has changed the basic formula, and thus ruined it forever, we've got you saying they haven't changed enough. I tell you, there just ain't pleasing some people.

spinedoc77
Oct 29, 2012, 12:49 PM
I won't disagree with you on the part about their strategy being sound. But as you've already said (and I totally agree), their execution of this strategy is terrible. They have lost their way. Totally. And lost MOST consumers along the way as well.

Where Microsoft can succeed is where they often do already...in corporations. There is no viable substitute for Windows (pick your flavor) for extremely large scale enterprises. Fortune 100 if you will. And all those users will often pick up a personal computing device to match their work OS. However, with more and more corporate citizens being issued laptops (I can't remember the last time I saw a desktop on a persons actual desk at the office), this effectively cannibalized Microsoft's past strategy of "sneaking the OS home" via the corporate users. People just literally take their laptops home with them now. And at home, they have all their preferred widgets and gizmo's (increasingly Apple products). I work cross-platform all the time and don't even carry a laptop that much anymore....just grab the closest one to me. Dropbox ensures I'm always current for version control purposes. And I'm betting from looking at all those other users that do likewise that even taking the work-issued Windows PC is a dying habit.

This is exactly why corporations have been adopting scores of iOS and Android devices while forcing RIM into oblivion. Users all but DEMANDED it, often starting with the CEO. How many users do you think will push their Win RT or Win Pro tablets onto corporate IT? Well, hopefully not an issue as they should "just work" if they are Windows devices, right? Well certainly not true for RT as we both know. So that line is doomed to fail. But iPads? Sure, corporate IT now supports those!

The world has changed. Drastically. Microsoft, unfortunately, has not.

I think a lot of users will push their Win Pro tablets onto corporate IT, a LOT of users. ipad and android tablets were pushed because there was no other alternative, windows tablets were thick, heavy, spat out hot air, had 3 hour battery life and just sucked incredibly, plus Windows 7 and previous also were terrible on a tablet interface. The world has turned, and now we have full windows devices the same size and battery life of the ipads/android tablets. That's why their idea is sound, but as we agree their execution is poor.

As for the whole the ipad "just works" junk, gah I'm so sick of hearing that. I'm sorry but between the multiple iphone 3g, 3gs, 4, 4s, ipad 1,2,3 I've owned they have ALL had their share of problems same as any other hardware device and software OS/programs. I get it, having a row of icons that a monkey can press is appealing to a lot of people, and Apple will always have an audience who will purchase their products. But I think counting Microsoft out as a competitor is a serious mistake, you can bet that Apple is not doing that.

Renzatic
Oct 29, 2012, 12:59 PM
But I think counting Microsoft out as a competitor is a serious mistake, you can bet that Apple is not doing that.

Between Clover Trail Atom processors being surprisingly decent, and Haswell coming sometime next year offering full ultrabook power with ARM like battery life (...or so they claim), Apple does have quite a bit to worry about. They could easily lose the high end tablet and ultrabook market to MS over the next couple of years if they don't offer a compelling alternative to the Surface.

michaeljohn
Oct 29, 2012, 11:21 PM
Umm... Is this a serious question? By your logic, why would anyone buy a MBA?

Ummm...is this a serious answer? The MBA is a full on laptop. The Surface is not. Its an underpowered tablet with a cheap plastic keyboard that costs double what an actual quality laptop costs. So yes, why did you feel the need to pay so much for what many feel is an inferior product, especially compared to a $650 laptop

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 11:32 PM
Ummm...is this a serious answer? The MBA is a full on laptop. The Surface is not. Its an underpowered tablet with a cheap plastic keyboard that costs double what an actual quality laptop costs. So yes, why did you feel the need to pay so much for what many feel is an inferior product, especially compared to a $650 laptop

It's clear you haven't worked with one. Not sure what makes you think it's underpowered, and the keyboard is actually an impressive piece of engineering.

Clearly you wouldn't buy an iPad either, seeing as how it also costs $599 and that doesn't include a keyboard (made of plastic or any other material).

And the point about the MBA was in direct response to your silly question saying that one could buy a laptop with larger screen and keyboard for the same money... Why would someone pay $999 for a MBA when they could pay a ton less for same said laptop?

michaeljohn
Oct 29, 2012, 11:38 PM
Why would someone pay $999 for a MBA when they could pay a ton less for same said laptop?

Would you mind telling me what laptop runs Mac OSX for a ton less than $999?

My point was, laptops running Windows are very inexpensive. So I was curious why someone would pay so much more for a tablet running the same OS but underpowered and with a smaller screen and inferior keyboard to a laptop priced much less.

pesos
Oct 29, 2012, 11:43 PM
Would you mind telling me what laptop runs Mac OSX for a ton less than $999?

My point was, laptops running Windows are very inexpensive. So I was curious why someone would pay so much more for a tablet running the same OS but underpowered and with a smaller screen and inferior keyboard to a laptop priced much less.

Hmm, in that case maybe you should try saying what you mean instead of specifically mentioning only the physical dimensions of the device as you did in your OP. That being said, even what you're saying now doesn't make sense. What Windows laptop with the same specs and dimensions of the MacBook Air costs significantly less than $999? For that matter, what Windows laptop comes anywhere close to .5" thickness and 1.5 lbs that I can get for the same price as an ipad/surface rt?

michaeljohn
Oct 29, 2012, 11:45 PM
Hmm, in that case maybe you should try saying what you mean instead of specifically mentioning only the physical dimensions of the device as you did in your OP. That being said, even what you're saying now doesn't make sense. What Windows laptop with the same specs and dimensions of the MacBook Air costs significantly less than $999? For that matter, what Windows laptop comes anywhere close to .5" thickness and 1.5 lbs that I can get for the same price as an ipad/surface rt?

ok,so you bought it because its thin and light? Thats fine. Just curious

coldmack
Oct 30, 2012, 12:01 AM
Would you mind telling me what laptop runs Mac OSX for a ton less than $999?

My point was, laptops running Windows are very inexpensive. So I was curious why someone would pay so much more for a tablet running the same OS but underpowered and with a smaller screen and inferior keyboard to a laptop priced much less.

A used Mac? Any other Intel machine with the same specs as either the Air and MBP and then hacked to illegally run OSX(after all the current Macbook line up is essentially a Wintel machine).

----------

Hmm, in that case maybe you should try saying what you mean instead of specifically mentioning only the physical dimensions of the device as you did in your OP. That being said, even what you're saying now doesn't make sense. What Windows laptop with the same specs and dimensions of the MacBook Air costs significantly less than $999? For that matter, what Windows laptop comes anywhere close to .5" thickness and 1.5 lbs that I can get for the same price as an ipad/surface rt?

One of the Atom based models(which cost about the same as the Surface RT), with the keyboard dock.

michaeljohn
Oct 30, 2012, 12:47 AM
It's clear you haven't worked with one. Not sure what makes you think it's underpowered

I missed this earlier. What makes me think its underpowered is...

1366x768 148ppi display
1.5ghz Tegra 3 quadcore processor
2gb RAM

Thats quite bad, by far the worst specs of any current high end tablet. Heck, even the Galaxy Note 2 features a 1280x720 267ppi display, 1.6ghz Exynos quadcore processor with 2gb of ram for $300 and thats more a phone than a tablet.

Renzatic
Oct 30, 2012, 05:36 AM
But specs don't matter!

coldmack
Oct 30, 2012, 04:22 PM
I missed this earlier. What makes me think its underpowered is...

1366x768 148ppi display
1.5ghz Tegra 3 quadcore processor
2gb RAM

Thats quite bad, by far the worst specs of any current high end tablet. Heck, even the Galaxy Note 2 features a 1280x720 267ppi display, 1.6ghz Exynos quadcore processor with 2gb of ram for $300 and thats more a phone than a tablet.
I am not here defending the Surface(never ever will), but some general comments. I don't see how screen related to the full performance of the device. If anything lower res screen requires less gpu and cpu usage, which sort of means better performance, no? Also, for all I know the Surface could have better contrast, color gamut and accuracy, and viewability in the sun(thankfully I would never ever know) vs the iPad so to some that's a better feature than a retina display(I would be in that camp).

opinioncircle
Nov 1, 2012, 10:02 AM
Current market share of the tablet marketplace says you are wrong and Apple's product strategy is right.

And the market isn't going to differentiate Win RT from Win Pro when it comes to the Surface. They will look at it and say "Tablet" and that's about as far as it gets. Microsoft has no idea who they are building the Surface for, not in the least. They are a 'build to specs' company and that story, while it resonates with a minority of the potential users out there, is a niche story.

Great product strategies are all about stories. I highly recommend this current article for a really good perspective on this. (http://techcrunch.com/2012/10/28/tech-storytelling/)

Microsoft has no story. Other than a confusing one.

Where Apple seems to have lost its swagger, MS seems in full blown mode. I'
M really surprised at how the Mini came out....Something is not going right in Cupertino....

Jbozzo2003
Nov 4, 2012, 03:03 PM
I have been using windows 8 since launch on every business computer. I compare it to an old Greek/Roman Statue. When you look from a far it is a beautiful piece of work but closeup up you see the cracks. Already had some blue screen of death and printers are going on and offline all the time. The Major apps I have installed are stable but I'm more worried down the line with smaller companies creating apps which the store might then end up like the android store a lot of buggy software and only some quality.

Once you use it for the first couple of days its cool & unique. When you deal with it everyday you realize why you switched to macs for computers and why the iPad is the iPad.

cnev3
Nov 4, 2012, 08:39 PM
There arent enough people who will truly use a tablet for productivity. Especially for corporate employees who use proprietary/speciality software that won't run on Windows RT or 8.

The surface is stuck in a very small niche. There just is not much room between a tablet geared towards apps/media, and a proper desktop/laptop PC that's best for productivity. The surface needs to sell millions in order for it to bring in the software and dev support necessary to keep it competitive. I don't see it selling anywhere near that.

Kudos to Microsoft for bringing something fresh to the crowded tablet market. But this is a product very few people need.

SlCKB0Y
Nov 4, 2012, 10:34 PM
Good call - .12" for touch cover makes it .65" Surface vs .68" MBA.

...


You've got to admit you were completely off wrt the weight, with the Surface not being heavier but actually coming in nearly half a pound lighter.

Firstly, based on your specs, it's closer to a third of a pound than half. Secondly, I'm guessing that weight doesn't include the keyboard... again...

thekev
Nov 4, 2012, 10:41 PM
Yes I have tried Surface.

$7000 Windows laptop? Is that even possible? Certainly not comparable to the Surface's specs. You can easily get a cheap junky laptop for less than the price of a Surface w keyboard. Here's an expensive one (http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=4960969&Sku=S170-155422&cm_re=Homepage-_-Spot%2001a-_-CatId_17_S170-155422) for $599 as a random example.



Some of the Dell/HP mobile workstations can hit that. It's a limited market, but it basically addresses those who really need a desktop or workstation out in the field somewhere.

SlCKB0Y
Nov 4, 2012, 10:43 PM
It is IMPOSSIBLE on iOS to have more than one program on the screen at the same time, hence, no multi tasking.

Wow....really?!?!
:rolleyes:

When dealing with computers this is NOT what multitasking refers to. Multitasking refers to having multiple applications running at the same time and the way in which the OS shares CPU resources to those applications.

spinedoc77
Nov 5, 2012, 02:48 PM
Wow....really?!?!
:rolleyes:

When dealing with computers this is NOT what multitasking refers to. Multitasking refers to having multiple applications running at the same time and the way in which the OS shares CPU resources to those applications.

Now that we have the textbook meaning we can all move along. :rolleyes:

I find more and more benefit to having multiple windows open on a daily basis. Kinda reminds me of 20 years ago when I first started using windows. Not having "windows" was always a step backwards.

Night Spring
Nov 5, 2012, 05:55 PM
Now that we have the textbook meaning we can all move along. :rolleyes:

I find more and more benefit to having multiple windows open on a daily basis. Kinda reminds me of 20 years ago when I first started using windows. Not having "windows" was always a step backwards.

While I do remember the dark windowless days of DOS, it is also true that on my MacBook Air, I find myself using most apps full-screen. I'd rather switch between full-screen apps than divide up the limited real screen estate into Windows. So personally, I don't wish for windowed apps on iOS -- even just imagining the already small iPad screen further divided up into Windows gives me shudders.

spinedoc77
Nov 5, 2012, 06:19 PM
While I do remember the dark windowless days of DOS, it is also true that on my MacBook Air, I find myself using most apps full-screen. I'd rather switch between full-screen apps than divide up the limited real screen estate into Windows. So personally, I don't wish for windowed apps on iOS -- even just imagining the already small iPad screen further divided up into Windows gives me shudders.

I like full screen programs as well, if I'm not multi tasking. But it's very nice to have stuff side by side as well. As always the argument is simply to have the choice to do either, seems as if that's the common theme against a lot of what ios does, or rather does not do.