Apple used some of my ideas and bits of design in iTunes 5; What to do? [Archive]

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:00 PM

Hello -

Apple's recently released iTunes 5 takes a few design cues and and idea or two from my music player skiTunes. Apple did this without my permission; What should I do?

Here's what has seem to be taken from my player's design and ideas:

• General window layout: Top bar, middle playlist, and bottom button bar
• Volume control separate from play controls
• Unified-toolbarish top bar (my player uses a unified toolbar)
• Folders in playlist system
• More squared LCD display

That's all I've spotted for the moment. If anyone notices more, please post it here. I've included a couple screenshots comparing the two.

What do you guys think I should do? Just forget about it and go on, try to get reimbursement for the ideas, get them to hire me or what?

kalisphoenix

Sep 7, 2005, 07:04 PM

Considering that most people have been ranting about how ugly iTunes 5 is, I don't think I'd be stepping forward like this... :p

vniow

Sep 7, 2005, 07:04 PM

So Apple makes iTunes, you make an app that looks like iTunes and now Apple makes an iTunes which looks vaguely like the app you made?
Why are you complaining?

ham_man

Sep 7, 2005, 07:10 PM

Considering that most people have been ranting about how ugly iTunes 5 is, I don't think I'd be stepping forward like this... :p
If they used the System Prefs theme, like he did, iTunes would be perfect. As for you well, I don't think that you have much of a case, seeing as your player is quite similar to the original iTunes...

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:11 PM

So Apple makes iTunes, you make an app that looks like iTunes and now Apple makes an iTunes which looks vaguely like the app you made?
Why are you complaining?

I'm not. I just took the iTunes interface and changed it to what I thought it should have been as well as added some of my own things, and it seems Apple has taken it back from me. I just think if they want my design ideas they should ask me or hire me if they want that part of design I added/changed.

jestershinra

Sep 7, 2005, 07:24 PM

OP- I think you're SOL...

Unless you have the money to fight them in court, you might just cut your losses.

Nuc

Sep 7, 2005, 07:29 PM

Yea.. don't see anything that looks to similar... So roll around you'll be alright.

Nuc

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:29 PM

OP- I think you're SOL...

Unless you have the money to fight them in court, you might just cut your losses.

What's SOL? I'm not familiar with that term.

jiv3turkey748

Sep 7, 2005, 07:30 PM

I'm not. I just took the iTunes interface and changed it to what I thought it should have been as well as added some of my own things, and it seems Apple has taken it back from me. I just think if they want my design ideas they should ask me or hire me if they want that part of design I added/changed.

you should have asked them before taking their design and interface ideas

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:35 PM

you should have asked them before taking their design and interface ideas

If I did that, the guaranteed answer would be no. Apple wouldn't listen to the people's requests featurewise, and I wanted an improved iTunes - it's the only logical thing I could think of doing.

And come up with a 100% new design that's better than iTunes? Fat chance, iTunes is the best in organizational design - there's no way I could come up with a new, better design (trust me, I tried).

Jopling

Sep 7, 2005, 07:36 PM

They probably have never heard of skiTunes.

CanadaRAM

Sep 7, 2005, 07:38 PM

What's SOL? I'm not familiar with that term.
$#!t Out of Luck, my friend.

Unless of course you filed a patent sometime in the '90s detailing "A unique way of organizing columns and rows of audio-visual files for playback on a general computing device" but Microsoft or Creative may havce beaten you to that...

Mitthrawnuruodo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:39 PM

Are you for real?

Let me get this: You copied iTunes, and now you accuse Apple of copying you?

You need to increase your medication... :rolleyes:

geese

Sep 7, 2005, 07:40 PM

Its going to be really difficult proving your case. Whilst Itunes 5 does have a SIMILAR layout to your app, its not a carbon copy of it as there are some differences.

To be honest, I doubt Apple would rip someones design off like that. It'd have to go through lots of user-testing and changes would be made in response to the interface, differentiating it further from yours.

There isnt alot you can do really. Write to Apple perhaps and ask them to explain why IT 5 is similar to your layout. You might get a decent response.

Your best bet is to consider your interface design skills as good as Apples! think of the bragging rights!

maya

Sep 7, 2005, 07:41 PM

If I did that, the guaranteed answer would be no. Apple wouldn't listen to the people's requests featurewise, and I wanted an improved iTunes - it's the only logical thing I could think of doing.

And come up with a 100% new design that's better than iTunes? Fat chance, iTunes is the best in organizational design - there's no way I could come up with a new, better design (trust me, I tried).

You are not trying hard enough apparently. ;) :)

I can come up with multiple designs in no time flat. :)

maya

Sep 7, 2005, 07:43 PM

Considering that most people have been ranting about how ugly iTunes 5 is, I don't think I'd be stepping forward like this... :p

Here here, Agreed. ;) :P :)

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:44 PM

Are you for real?

Let me get this: You copied iTunes, and now you accuse Apple of copying you?

You need to increase your medication... :rolleyes:

No, all I'm saying is that I'd like to have credit for my additions/changes to the iTunes interface. Is that really too much to ask?

As for those comparing me to creative and others, please don't. All I want is credit for my ideas/work; Not even money. Just simple 'ol credit.

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 07:46 PM

You are not trying hard enough apparently. ;) :)

I can come up with multiple designs in no time flat. :)

Heh, well maybe, but if the designs are anything like Winamp's you can just keep the ideas. From a good interface designer's perspective Winamp is an interface nightmare. Also - I limit my designs to what can done with native widgets/windows - none of this custom interface crap like Apple uses with iTunes.

fistful

Sep 7, 2005, 08:03 PM

I think about the only thing you'll receive in contacting them to complain is cease and desist order if you even get a response at all.

LethalWolfe

Sep 7, 2005, 08:07 PM

No, all I'm saying is that I'd like to have credit for my additions/changes to the iTunes interface. Is that really too much to ask?

How do you know they used your ideas? Is it not possible that Apple employees thought of these things themselves? It's not like you came up w/anything brilliantly unique or earth shattering. I mean, seriously, there are only so many ways you can tweak the existing iTunes UI so isn't it common sense to think that different people can come up w/the same ideas given the limitations they have to work within?

Lethal

Plymouthbreezer

Sep 7, 2005, 08:13 PM

No, all I'm saying is that I'd like to have credit for my additions/changes to the iTunes interface. Is that really too much to ask?

Too much to ask? Yes.

This is because Apple didn't "steel" your interface. You're making it sound like YOU designed iTunes, which clearly you didn't.

raggedjimmi

Sep 7, 2005, 08:13 PM

maya

Sep 7, 2005, 08:18 PM

Cone now people, this member is just seeking acknowledgment for his similar design. I never even knew till this thread that an app called "skitunes" existed.

In short, NO. Apple did not steal your idea(s) in regards to the UI and the forders. These are features that users have been requesting for ages. Where else you you expect Apple to place the folders. Sure the iTunes UI team is going for a new look, regardless if some people like or dislike it. Just odd to many that there is no consistency among the Apple UI apps. :P

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 08:20 PM

Too much to ask? Yes.

This is because Apple didn't "steel" your interface. You're making it sound like YOU designed iTunes, which clearly you didn't.

Read again. Not the entire interface, but just the parts I added and changed is all I want credit for. Apple designed the original interface and most certainly deserve credit for that.

maya

Sep 7, 2005, 08:20 PM

Heh, well maybe, but if the designs are anything like Winamp's you can just keep the ideas. From a good interface designer's perspective Winamp is an interface nightmare. Also - I limit my designs to what can done with native widgets/windows - none of this custom interface crap like Apple uses with iTunes.

def not WinAmp, far better. :)

iTunes UI team can do way better, it seems they are running low on UI designs or saving them up for whatever new OS version/update is around the corner. You can only do so much with a 2D canvas. Effects are nice, however it comes down to the same resolution in the end. :)

gekko513

Sep 7, 2005, 08:23 PM

this is not too dissimilar from what happened to me. i make freeware games, with the intention that people will pay NOTHING at all to play them. only some brazillian thought it wise to add my game to one of those multi-Game discs you see on cheap markets. didn't even ask my permission.

chances are you wont get far if you try pressing charges. I did. couldn't do anything in the end.
THIS has happened to me to. I also made a freeware game, and at some point someone made a support request where he claimed that he bought the game and excpected it to work in some manner that it didn't work. I didn't find out where he bought it, but I was able to help him with his problem.

For the original poster. I don't think throwing the standard Interface Builder (by Apple) widgets together into a Mail (by Apple) like version of the iTunes (by Apple) interface makes the idea original enough to claim that Apple stole your idea.

jsalzer

Sep 7, 2005, 08:23 PM

No, all I'm saying is that I'd like to have credit for my additions/changes to the iTunes interface. Is that really too much to ask?

Probably. There are only so many ways to arrange this stuff. Rewind pretty much has to be to the left of Play with fast forward to the right. Volume control will either be round or linear and won't be found between the Rewind button and the Play button, which leaves it to the left, right, top, or bottom of the play controls.

Unified topbar? Their topbar was already unified. They just squished it all up into a more horizontal format - to increase the amount of room for the windows - which naturally meant moving your lowermost widget (the volume) up. Page layout 101 - no need to copy anyone else involved.

Bottom button bar? That was already there, too. I don't get it.

Even Calculus arose in two different places at the same time. What would lead an otherwise normal person to believe Apple designers really printed out a copy of his design, put it up on the wall, and said, "let's do this"? When all that really happened was that they had a 50-50 decision to put the volume up to the left or to the right of the controls and chose the right, which is by far the most natural option.

maya

Sep 7, 2005, 08:29 PM

This issue is a no brainer. Its all the excitement of watching the "spinning beach-ball of death." :rolleyes: ;) :p :D

pdpfilms

Sep 7, 2005, 08:30 PM

Don't fight apple, man. It's for your own good.

PlaceofDis

Sep 7, 2005, 08:31 PM

get over it, stuff like this happens.

mad jew

Sep 7, 2005, 08:31 PM

Sorry, not a single leg to stand on. Even if they did copy you, it'd be a struggle getting any compensation from such an experienced group of lawyers. :(

Don't panic

Sep 7, 2005, 08:31 PM

Hello -

Apple's recently released iTunes 5 takes a few design cues and and idea or two from my music player skiTunes. Apple did this without my permission; What should I do?

...

What do you guys think I should do? Just forget about it and go on, try to get reimbursement for the ideas, get them to hire me or what?

iindigo, i don't want to be rude, i really don't think apple 'stole' any of your ideas AT ALL. They are likely unaware of it and if they were or cared, YOU might be in trouble for patent infringements.
you took iTunes and blatantly copied it with some very minor and not particularly original tweakss, which might or might not be considered improvements.
apple then updates itunes and some of the changes vaguely resemble some of yours and you claim THEY copied YOU? again I don't want to be offensive in the least, but you got some ego at work there.

your idea of making an open-source itunes is commendable, but in this case it is you that ripped-off iTunes, not vice-versa.

Here's what has seem to be taken from my player's design and ideas:
• General window layout: Top bar, middle playlist, and bottom button bar??? its the same in itunes 4
• Volume control separate from play controls
they moved about a quarter of an inch from immediately before to immediately next, probably to slim the bar. yours is on the other side
• Unified-toolbarish top bar (my player uses a unified toolbar)??? i don't know what that means. the top bar in iTunes 4 and 5 are almost identical a part from a couple of minor cosmetic changes
• Folders in playlist system
people have been clamoring for this forever, and the folder/subfolder idea is not exactly new
• More squared LCD display come on, now you are getting silly

edit: however, you idea to generate some traffic to your site probably wasn't silly at all. you might even get someone to download your program ;)

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 08:33 PM

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a stupid over-excited really geeky teenage Apple fanboy. I just wanted iTunes to be like what I intend skiTunes to be like really badly, and I was also hoping at some point Apple would ask to borrow some concepts from it or heck even buy it and use it for a Cocoa iTunes (there's no reason iTunes should be Carbon, really - but meh).

I thought it was kinda unusual that it resembled my software in some ways though... I guess that's what I got excited about.

dornoforpyros

Sep 7, 2005, 08:36 PM

yeah dude, apple never saw your iTunes UI. Your design, although clean and very nice certanly isn't ground breaking or that original. You took some elements of aqua and played with them. You design something to look good in OS X and of course it's likely to look like some one elses.

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 08:36 PM

edit: however, you idea to generate some traffic to your site probably wasn't silly at all. youo might even get someone to download your program ;)

It's more popular than you might think, there's been well over 6,000 downloads of it, and it has a thread for itself in many forums. I tried starting one here but people let it sink.

Sun Baked

Sep 7, 2005, 08:42 PM

Read again. Not the entire interface, but just the parts I added and changed is all I want credit for. Apple designed the original interface and most certainly deserve credit for that.Look at the list of IPs that downloaded your program, see if an Apple IP comes up.

Otherwise you are smoking something.

Remember, if you think it's a logical extension to iTunes -- Apple may also think that way.

Doesn't mean they stole anything unless you can prove Apple was downloading your interface after they released iTunes x.x

Since you have admitted publically that you stole Apple's interface as the basis for you "improved" widget (bad idea BTW) -- going after Apple will land you in a deeper cesspit.

Plus Apple has a lot of paperwork for their entire design process to back up any claims they have (and a lot of witnesses that attended those design meeting) -- especially concerning the progress and evolution of the program and/or interface.

Doubtful that you have any at all.

Edit: Sort of great that anything you say on these forums can be (and probably will be) used against you in any court of law. ;)

Abstract

Sep 7, 2005, 08:42 PM

If I did that, the guaranteed answer would be no. Apple wouldn't listen to the people's requests featurewise, and I wanted an improved iTunes - it's the only logical thing I could think of doing.
You wanted an improved iTunes, and then Apple changes iTunes and adds the features and changes you wanted, and now you complain that it's improved the way you wanted iTunes to be? Ever think that maybe Apple listened to some of the suggestions and requests given to them regarding playlist folders and such?

Ah man, I love this guy! Funny. Funnee!

And come up with a 100% new design that's better than iTunes? Fat chance, iTunes is the best in organizational design - there's no way I could come up with a new, better design (trust me, I tried).
Maybe that's what Apple thought when they saw YOUR program!

You copy them and you don't think it's wrong, and when they "copy" you, you complain about it and think it's wrong. Expected levels of honesty and morality shouldn't be based on the size and value of the people/companies in question. You and Apple should be held under the same laws and standards when it comes to copying other people's work.

Don't panic

Sep 7, 2005, 08:43 PM

It's more popular than you might think, there's been well over 6,000 downloads of it, and it has a thread for itself in many forums. I tried starting one here but people let it sink.

I know. I checked.
6782 and at least a couple since you started the thread.
and don't tell me you're not liking the added publicity ;)

jsalzer

Sep 7, 2005, 08:44 PM

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just a stupid over-excited really geeky teenage Apple fanboy. I just wanted iTunes to be like what I intend skiTunes to be like really badly

Hehe - badly worded excitement, eh? I'm sure everyone here understands the excitement of having Apple gods affirm your sense of GUI design. We're all a little overly protective of Apple (and tired of lawsuits in general), so the way you stated your excitement was bound to get some negative responses.

Stay with Steve, and he will lead you to the light. ;)

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 08:46 PM

GAH. Why can't Apple just release a Cocoa version of iTunes like they did with QT7's player, and I wouldn't have to program a better player. But nooooo they can't do that... makes too much sense.

skubish

Sep 7, 2005, 08:53 PM

I can't see any novelty in your designs that would justify credit.

Sayer

Sep 7, 2005, 09:08 PM

GAH. Why can't Apple just release a Cocoa version of iTunes like they did with QT7's player, and I wouldn't have to program a better player. But nooooo they can't do that... makes too much sense.

Does Cocoa currently run on Win2K and XP? Actually, QuickTime is fully cross-platform and that is a lot of what makes iTunes "work" on both the Mac and PC.

The rest is cross-platform C++ code, which is easier to port between Win and Mac platforms than using Cocoa and the ObjectiveC language which is only officially supported on Mac OS X.

Maybe you need to learn a bit more about programming and how things work out here in the real world before you get a woody thinking Apple copied your "design" for iTunes.

If anything Apple made iTunes look more like a Windows app than anything original to the Mac platform. There's a reason why so much of OS X 10.4 has dropped the silly gel blobs and pin stripes - they look terrible compared to what we have to replace them (fine gradients, recessed plastic-looking controls, smooth windows etc).

Think whatever you want to, you have that right. But don't whine about how your "idea" isn't compensated when #1 you didn't apply for any design patent, #2 you started with the existing iTunes UI and #3 you put your design in the public domain.

It's funny how everyone wants intellectual property protection for something *they* make (or even create, like say UIs for music players that are based of iTunes) and yet they demand all software to be free, open source and their music to have zero DRM/copy protection.

*shrug*

mad jew

Sep 7, 2005, 09:13 PM

So, how many people prefer the look of skiTunes then? I know I certainly do. :)

Nice work iindigo.

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 09:14 PM

Does Cocoa currently run on Win2K and XP? Actually, QuickTime is fully cross-platform and that is a lot of what makes iTunes "work" on both the Mac and PC.

The rest is cross-platform C++ code, which is easier to port between Win and Mac platforms than using Cocoa and the ObjectiveC language which is only officially supported on Mac OS X.

Maybe you need to learn a bit more about programming and how things work out here in the real world before you get a woody thinking Apple copied your "design" for iTunes.

If anything Apple made iTunes look more like a Windows app than anything original to the Mac platform. There's a reason why so much of OS X 10.4 has dropped the silly gel blobs and pin stripes - they look terrible compared to what we have to replace them (fine gradients, recessed plastic-looking controls, smooth windows etc).

Think whatever you want to, you have that right. But don't whine about how your "idea" isn't compensated when #1 you didn't apply for any design patent, #2 you started with the existing iTunes UI and #3 you put your design in the public domain.

It's funny how everyone wants intellectual property protection for something *they* make (or even create, like say UIs for music players that are based of iTunes) and yet they demand all software to be free, open source and their music to have zero DRM/copy protection.

*shrug*

I realize the portability problem, but that didn't bother them with the QT 7 player. In OS X it's Cocoa and on Windows it's C++.

At the very least, Apple could drop the "fake" buttons and GUI elements. There's no reason for them, as Carbon supports native elements, and the custom GUI elements make it a pain in the ass to theme.

As for the skiTunes part, I am sorry, I got excited. What do you expect? I'm 16 and this is the first time anything "big" has come even remotely close to my ideas. I couldn't contain myself.

iindigo

Sep 7, 2005, 09:15 PM

So, how many people prefer the look of skiTunes then? I know I certainly do. :)

Nice work iindigo.

Thank you mad jew. Hopefully if enough people join the project, it will become a viable iTunes replacement and beyond. :)

iBlue

Sep 7, 2005, 11:40 PM

iindigo, i don't want to be rude...

<snip text>

my thoughts exactly, well stated.

Plymouthbreezer

Sep 8, 2005, 07:56 PM

iindigo, I like your work too (I love your calculator skin - awesome!), but I think asking for credit is going too far. Also, you have no right using even what you have so far as a basis for your own project - as it's apple's work. Trying to individually change a MAJOR program from Apple single-handedly isn't gunna happen. And, if you think Apple would steal ideas from you, why on earth would they pay designers a pretty penny to do it for them (professionally none-the-less)?

Abstract

Sep 8, 2005, 08:18 PM

You don't have a single unique idea in there. It's all either part of the evolutionary process of iTunes(ie: lots of people asked for it for a long time now), or are small superficial changes.

quigleybc

Sep 8, 2005, 08:37 PM

Thank you mad jew. Hopefully if enough people join the project, it will become a viable iTunes replacement and beyond. :)

I agree with mad jew, nice work dude. I doubt that i will replace iTunes with your app, but I think it's cool that you made it.

Don't stress all the negative posts on here, I think people enjoy writing harsh stuff sometimes.

But, I would drop the idea of getting credit from apple, it's not gonna happen. But you got a thumbs up from me.

Nice one!

If anything, this should give you more confidence. Now, go and try and "think different" and who knows maybe next time you'll hit it big.

BTW, why did you name it skiTunes?

Baron58

Sep 8, 2005, 08:53 PM

a Cocoa iTunes (there's no reason iTunes should be Carbon, really - but meh)

The more you talk, the worse you look.

From http://neowiki.sixthcrusade.com/index.php/NeoOffice/J_and_Aqua :

Isn't Cocoa better than Java?

Aqua is aqua.

This question is most often asked by developers and power users. End users, on the other hand, tend to judge by the results. As one tester put it:

"If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then to the end user it's a duck, and end users have made it pretty clear they want a duck; whether the duck drinks hot chocolate or coffee is irrelevant."

From an Apple developer: http://lists.apple.com/archives/Carbon-dev/2005/May/msg01121.html

I think the important point to understand is that artificially dividing up the world of Mac OS X APIs into Carbon and Cocoa, and considering that these are mutually exclusive, is the wrong way to look at things. Mac OS X provides a huge variety of APIs at different levels for use by an application. Some have C interfaces, some have Objective-C interfaces. Someday we may even have C++ interfaces. A Mac OS X application is just that - a Mac OS X application, not really a Carbon application or a Cocoa application. A Mac OS X developer should be prepared to use any API from across the system that does the job, regardless of what framework it comes from. Our job at Apple is to make that possible, and to remove barriers that are in your way when trying to use CoreImage in a app that uses primarily HIView, or a Carbon event in a app that uses [NSApplication run], or using a POSIX API from an app that uses Swing, or whatever is blocking you from using the most appropriate API for the task.

MacAficionado

Sep 8, 2005, 10:04 PM

I would be happy that iTunes looks now, more like you wanted it. Really your app looks like a combo of Mail and Safari. Just keep developing your to be an alternative to Real, WMA, or to the crappy MPlayer. I think that's where the opportunity may lie.

Cheers!

yenko

Sep 8, 2005, 10:28 PM

savar

Sep 9, 2005, 01:58 AM

About 18 months ago I was telling a friend how they should take the iPod Mini, replace the HD with Flash, shrink it down a whole lot, add a color screen, and then produce it in only two colors.

Well now Apple has totally ripped me off, too!

Luckily I wrote down a few notes on a napkin that day at lunch and then had it signed by a notary public...prior art, baby! I expect Apple will have to settle to avoid sullying its name.

god bless the US PTO