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kevink2
Nov 4, 2012, 01:19 PM
After seeing some of the commercials, and reading reviews, I have no plans to do so.

Commercials are pushing that they have a keyboard, so you can prop it up on a table and have a keyboard. If THAT is important enough for you, then why not buy an Air? Slim, better keyboard, and more apps than the RT version. As for portability, at least the iPad offers an LTE version, without having to either hotspot through your phone or buying a hotspot with the Surface.



profets
Nov 4, 2012, 01:23 PM
I'm not buying one myself, but it's nice to see MS put some effort and time behind the design and using something other than plastic for the body (seems like an extremely strong magnesium build).

nfl46
Nov 4, 2012, 01:29 PM
No, I have no interest in it.

children
Nov 4, 2012, 01:31 PM
Not this one, but the surface 2 maybe? It really looks like a fantastic product


After seeing some of the commercials, and reading reviews, I have no plans to do so.

Commercials are pushing that they have a keyboard, so you can prop it up on a table and have a keyboard. If THAT is important enough for you, then why not buy an Air? Slim, better keyboard, and more apps than the RT version. As for portability, at least the iPad offers an LTE version, without having to either hotspot through your phone or buying a hotspot with the Surface.

The air is not a tablet
iPad doesn't have office (yet)

Is it really that hard to see the strength in windows rt? It delivers where the ipad does not, it's a successful mix on notebook and tablet

Give credit where credit is due

IbisDoc
Nov 4, 2012, 01:42 PM
Bought one just because it seemed like the thing to do, but I haven't used it much. Already have an iPad 3, and an iPad 4 on order, and find that the Surface screen pales in comparison to a Retina. The touch keyboard is worthless, doesn't work half the time. Maybe the type keyboard is better. I do like the built in stand, and I also like the user interface (the "tiles" are better than the iOS UI). I imagine that the app selection will increase over time.

pasadena
Nov 4, 2012, 01:46 PM
No. I just switched from Windows to OSX for my laptop use, partly because I don't want to have anything to do with Windows 8. So I'm obviously not going back to it for a tablet.

Also, for the same reason I never got the iPad -too big for my use, I don't want a 10" tablet.

But most of all, after reading the reviews, it boils down to the fact that the surface is a great tablet (kudos to MS for that, especially their first try), but the OS and ecosystem are not nearly as ready. Windows RT, like the full 8 version, really seems half-baked and in dire need of another few months of dev. Added to that the fact that the Windows product cycle is probably too long for a tablet OS.

So a really good high-end tablet, with a as-usual unfinished OS that I really really don't like and a UI that I really really really don't like at all.

Now, I'd like to see what the Surface pro brings for professional use.

Hence, iPad mini.

Noisemaker
Nov 4, 2012, 01:50 PM
Is it really that hard to see the strength in windows rt? It delivers where the ipad does not, it's a successful mix on notebook and tablet

Give credit where credit is due

I disagree.

Even things like the Nexus are better at being a tablet than the Surface.

The Surface is basically a notebook with the ability to pretend to be a tablet. The whole draw of the damn thing is the attachable keyboard.

There's no credit to give - it's just Microsoft sticking to a safety net by essentially making a notebook with a touchscreen, as they knew a straight tablet would be slaughtered in sales by the iPad and Android tablets.

thelead
Nov 4, 2012, 01:52 PM
Bought one just because it seemed like the thing to do, but I haven't used it much. Already have an iPad 3, and an iPad 4 on order, and find that the Surface screen pales in comparison to a Retina. The touch keyboard is worthless, doesn't work half the time. Maybe the type keyboard is better. I do like the built in stand, and I also like the user interface (the "tiles" are better than the iOS UI). I imagine that the app selection will increase over time.

The type keyboard is amazing and doesn't add much bulk. I hope they do put out a Surface 2. I'm not ready to jump in with the tegra 3 in the Surface 1. I definitely will keep an eye on the Surface Pro too.

pasadena
Nov 4, 2012, 02:00 PM
There's no credit to give - it's just Microsoft sticking to a safety net by essentially making a notebook with a touchscreen, as they knew a straight tablet would be slaughtered in sales by the iPad and Android tablets.

No, that's Microsoft being smart and addressing a market that others have it to address and in which they already have a huge user base ready to switch.

There's no "notebook with a touchscreen" because the technology isn't quite there yet AND because most tablet makers aren't interested in addressing it as much as they're interested in the "consumer market" e.g. people who don't really need a full-fledged computer. MS is pretty smart in leaving it to them, where they are waring against each other, and addressing the ones still waiting.

Now, the OS just have to follow suit with the hardware :p

OSMac
Nov 4, 2012, 02:01 PM
I've been using the Asus Vivo RT, same cpu and OS as the Surface, in a lighter thinner package and adds GPS , NFC too. They are throwing in the keyboard dock for a while too.

I like the OS for a tablet, it's very smooth, the many swipe actions make using it enjoyable. Browser is nice and fluid , decent mail , maps app, and google maps and youtube full screen looks great in the browser too.

Not sure how it will compare to the soon to come full windows 8 Atom and i5 tablets but its not bad as is, falls short of the iPad's resolution and app selection, but pretty decent for a first gen product depending on your expectations.

Buy with a return policy just in case, but if you like touch gadgets I think most will keep them.

TheGenerous
Nov 4, 2012, 02:10 PM
Hopefully someone will do an analogy of a hackintosh with the surface.
To me that'll be interesting

GroundLoop
Nov 4, 2012, 03:14 PM
I am seriously considering a Surface Pro, but I will have to try it out and see what the pricing is like. I think that MS has been making a lot of good decisions recently, and I am going to show my support with my wallet. I have already upgraded to Windows 8 and will likely get a Samsung ATIV Odyssey. My Windows 8 experience on the desktop has bee very pleasant, especially with the Logitech T650 trackpad.

Yes, it is not for everyone, but I think the unified approach could be a winner.

GL

DingleButt
Nov 4, 2012, 03:24 PM
I am seriously considering a Surface Pro, but I will have to try it out and see what the pricing is like. I think that MS has been making a lot of good decisions recently, and I am going to show my support with my wallet. I have already upgraded to Windows 8 and will likely get a Samsung ATIV Odyssey. My Windows 8 experience on the desktop has bee very pleasant, especially with the Logitech T650 trackpad.

Yes, it is not for everyone, but I think the unified approach could be a winner.

GL

How has that been working out for you (T650)? Surface feel, gestures, accuracy, etc

Rodster
Nov 4, 2012, 03:26 PM
I'm seriously considering a Surface Pro, just waiting for the release and reviews. :)

SDub90
Nov 4, 2012, 03:29 PM
I'm really interested in the surface, but I'd probably go with one of those hybrid tablet/notebooks instead. Those seem more practical for what I would need.

GroundLoop
Nov 4, 2012, 03:31 PM
How has that been working out for you (T650)? Surface feel, gestures, accuracy, etc

I like it a lot. I do like the feel of the Magic Trackpad better, but the T650 certainly gets the job done for me. I do think that a trackpad is a necessity for desktop Windows 8 users and the T650 is the best on that I have see so far. Would be awesome if someone can build a driver for the Magic Trackpad to work with Windows 8.

GL

children
Nov 4, 2012, 04:01 PM
I disagree.

Even things like the Nexus are better at being a tablet than the Surface.

The Surface is basically a notebook with the ability to pretend to be a tablet. The whole draw of the damn thing is the attachable keyboard.

There's no credit to give - it's just Microsoft sticking to a safety net by essentially making a notebook with a touchscreen, as they knew a straight tablet would be slaughtered in sales by the iPad and Android tablets.

The rt is a OS designed and optimised for tablet / touch use - much like iOS. As a tablet, it is no less convenient than the ipad. You obviously have no idea about the surface, as it would be more accurately described as an effective tablet with some of the core strengths of a PC.

Cod3rror
Nov 4, 2012, 04:42 PM
Surface is a half assed tablet and a half assed laptop.

Also Windows 8... that Metro, side scrolling, square icons created in MSPaint... I'm just dumbfounded at how such talentless people managed to get positions so high up in the company.

Renzatic
Nov 4, 2012, 05:13 PM
...it would be more accurately described as an effective tablet with some of the core strengths of a PC.

Whoa. Someone gets it. :O

Noisemaker
Nov 4, 2012, 05:29 PM
The rt is a OS designed and optimised for tablet / touch use - much like iOS. As a tablet, it is no less convenient than the ipad. You obviously have no idea about the surface, as it would be more accurately described as an effective tablet with some of the core strengths of a PC.

How can you know how much I know about the Surface? I've looked into it, as I was interested to see how Microsoft would enter the tablet market.

In my opinion the Surface isn't enough of a tablet to effectively go up against real tablets. When the thing is packaged with a keyboard and is built so that you prop it up as a screen instead of hold it and use it like a tablet, you can only question when it stops being a tablet and turns into a gimmicky notebook.

*Batman*
Nov 4, 2012, 05:32 PM
I have no interest in buying one, but a friend of mine might be. He's a Ford technician and wants to be able to access some special Ford sites. His iPad cannot display them, presumably because of Flash, however he bought the Galaxy Nexus 7 and that wouldn't work either. Apparently they geared the site to work with Microsoft stuff only.

The only disadvantage of the Surface is it has no cellular option and I'm not sure if he has WiFi in the shop or not.

children
Nov 4, 2012, 05:33 PM
How can you know how much I know about the Surface? I've looked into it, as I was interested to see how Microsoft would enter the tablet market.

In my opinion the Surface isn't enough of a tablet to effectively go up against real tablets. When the thing is packaged with a keyboard and is built so that you prop it up as a screen instead of hold it and use it like a tablet, you can only question when it stops being a tablet and turns into a gimmicky notebook.

sigh... im going to move one with my life

laserfox
Nov 4, 2012, 05:35 PM
How can you know how much I know about the Surface? I've looked into it, as I was interested to see how Microsoft would enter the tablet market.

In my opinion the Surface isn't enough of a tablet to effectively go up against real tablets. When the thing is packaged with a keyboard and is built so that you prop it up as a screen instead of hold it and use it like a tablet, you can only question when it stops being a tablet and turns into a gimmicky notebook.

Hi I own a Surface RT and I use it in tablet mode 80% of the time. The touch cover is just like the iPad pad smart cover you can fold it back and just use the tablet. Also you don't have to use the Kickstand. Please make some sensible arguments in the future.

Noisemaker
Nov 4, 2012, 05:43 PM
Hi I own a Surface RT and I use it in tablet mode 80% of the time. The touch cover is just like the iPad pad smart cover you can fold it back and just use the tablet. Also you don't have to use the Kickstand. Please make some sensible arguments in the future.

I'm not saying it can't be used as a tablet. I'm saying that it's being advertised to be used like a notebook. Go watch the Microsoft commercial for it - they only show it with the keyboard, and in fact, make the "click" sounds of opening the kickstand and attaching the keyboard cover as a major part of their advertising.

Jinzen
Nov 4, 2012, 05:49 PM
I disagree.

Even things like the Nexus are better at being a tablet than the Surface.

The Surface is basically a notebook with the ability to pretend to be a tablet. The whole draw of the damn thing is the attachable keyboard.

There's no credit to give - it's just Microsoft sticking to a safety net by essentially making a notebook with a touchscreen, as they knew a straight tablet would be slaughtered in sales by the iPad and Android tablets.

Basically this.

I'm typing this on a Surface - it is not a tablet. It has touch screen functions as much so as a laptop with Windows 8 has touch screen on it. As a tablet, it is awful. Ergonomically awful, horrible pixel density, strange touch behaviors, impossible to use onscreen keyboard - complete lack of apps.

Using it to take notes and type posts on Macrumors? Good use for it.

It's a $500 netbook with good battery life, good viewing angles. Or more like $600 + tax.

Being returned when I have the time.

Renzatic
Nov 4, 2012, 06:22 PM
In my opinion the Surface isn't enough of a tablet to effectively go up against real tablets. When the thing is packaged with a keyboard and is built so that you prop it up as a screen instead of hold it and use it like a tablet, you can only question when it stops being a tablet and turns into a gimmicky notebook.

I've said this before, but does having a bluetooth keyboard and the smartcover prop up your ipad make it any less of a tablet? Just because you have the option, doesn't mean it directly relies on it for basic functionality. It's there for when you want to do some indepth typing, or prop up the tablet.

----------

I'm typing this on a Surface - it is not a tablet. It has touch screen functions as much so as a laptop with Windows 8 has touch screen on it. As a tablet, it is awful. Ergonomically awful, horrible pixel density, strange touch behaviors, impossible to use onscreen keyboard - complete lack of apps.

If you take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet, then it's a tablet. Everything else is exaggeration.

Like what's so much worse about the onscreen keyboard than the one on the iPad?

Awful horrible pixel density? It's about 155 PPI, give or take. Not as high as the iPad, no. But awful? Hardly. We've been getting by on 72-100 PPI for years and years now. Retina displays might make them look pale by comparison, but they're suddenly no longer usable.

Strange touch behaviors? Like using three fingers and swiping upwards to access the app tray is so much easier than swiping from the edge of the screen to flip through apps like cards. There's nothing inherently more difficult to use on the Surface touchwise than the iPad.

Ergonomics? ....maybe. I'm not totally sold on a widescreen tablet myself. I don't think it's terrible, but I'm wondering if it's as comfortable to hold as an iPad.

App selection? It's got a healthy number of them, though nowhere near the selection you get on the App Store yet. This is true.

Really, it sounds less like you've had a bad experience, and more like you just don't want to like the thing.

ReanimationN
Nov 4, 2012, 07:14 PM
After seeing some of the commercials, and reading reviews, I have no plans to do so.

Commercials are pushing that they have a keyboard, so you can prop it up on a table and have a keyboard. If THAT is important enough for you, then why not buy an Air? Slim, better keyboard, and more apps than the RT version. As for portability, at least the iPad offers an LTE version, without having to either hotspot through your phone or buying a hotspot with the Surface.

Yes, I'll more than likely get a Surface Pro early next year. Why not buy an Air? The Surface Pro will have a higher resolution screen, a touch screen, the Windows software back catalogue, the often superior Windows versions of software (e.g. StarCraft 2 performs far better on Windows than it does on OS X) and will have the full compliment of touch screen apps from the Windows Store. To be fair, the Windows software advantage can be eliminated by installing Windows on a MacBook Air, but it can't turn the Air into a touch screen device. ;)

spinedoc77
Nov 4, 2012, 08:06 PM
Hell yes! Currently on a Samsung windows 8 Pro tablet and can't believe how incredible it is. This tablet will go to my wife when the surface pro gets released.

Sensamic
Nov 4, 2012, 08:21 PM
I was, but it has gotten many bad reviews, no apps and apps take much more time to open than on iPad or Android.

Besides, buying the product now is like betting. We don't know if in one year it will turn out to be a success or something like the zune.

That's why now I'm looking at the iPad 4 or nexus 7 or 10.

cnev3
Nov 4, 2012, 08:23 PM
There has to be a good selection of quality apps/software before I will consider a purchase.

Software is just as important as hardware, if not more. You need both.

Until them, i'm fine with using my desktop for productivity, and my iPod Touch for apps and mobile tasks.

OceanView
Nov 4, 2012, 09:26 PM
I checked one out today at the MS store and I was impressed with it.
It's really a decent tablet for people considering an iPad.
The great thing about it is that it comes with Office and can be used to easily made/edit office docs without the need to go to a full PC/MAC.

For those that are arguing that it's better to get an Mac Air, the surface is not a laptop replacement. These are the same arguments people used when the iPad first came out. The surface is a tablet that also has some additional features like Office usability. I know people are gonna say that the iPad can also edit some office docs, but that is no way a real comparison.
Surface is much better in that department. I believe the next version will have a better screen along with more features too.

In any case it is a good product for many.

Duckit
Nov 4, 2012, 10:00 PM
I checked one out today at the MS store and I was impressed with it.
It's really a decent tablet for people considering an iPad.
The great thing about it is that it comes with Office and can be used to easily made/edit office docs without the need to go to a full PC/MAC.

For those that are arguing that it's better to get an Mac Air, the surface is not a laptop replacement. These are the same arguments people used when the iPad first came out. The surface is a tablet that also has some additional features like Office usability. I know people are gonna say that the iPad can also edit some office docs, but that is no way a real comparison.
Surface is much better in that department. I believe the next version will have a better screen along with more features too.

In any case it is a good product for many.
How is the performance? A lot of reviewers are saying it's slow.

kevink2
Nov 5, 2012, 11:24 AM
My previous laptop (before my current MBP) was a TabletPC edition. I found that, with PC software, tablet mode wasn't that useful for me. Mainly for reading magazines on the computer.

For tablet mode, the surface will be MUCH better than that laptop. Weight and battery life.

I guess it depends on how well the metro software works. The thing I worry about is that too many people will take advantage of a keyboard, and not be touch friendly enough.

TheHateMachine
Nov 5, 2012, 12:51 PM
Bought one and I like it a lot. Essentially shelved my iPad and go for the Surface all the time now. Going to pick up the Surface Pro when it drops and give the Surface RT to my GF.

OceanView
Nov 5, 2012, 04:29 PM
How is the performance? A lot of reviewers are saying it's slow.

I didn't notice any slowness. One thing to take note is that the display units have been used by many new people that have openend every application.
I didn't know how to turn them off so I'm sure that it could have effected the performance.

silversin
Nov 8, 2012, 03:58 AM
Waiting for the pro version. Hurry up Microsoft!

ucfgrad93
Nov 8, 2012, 08:15 AM
While I wouldn't mind playing around with one for a bit, I don't have any plans to buy one.

OSMac
Nov 8, 2012, 08:28 AM
I'm trying a Samsung SmartPC 500T tablet with the new Clovertrail processor.
That device has just amazing battery life, probably longer than the Surface,
and you get to run windows programs too, not just RT.

Downside compared to the iPad or Surface RT is the size.
Not sure way Samsung chose 11.6" 16:9 just too big to enjoy using in tablet mode for long periods.

Docked with the keyboard and using the full Win 8 desktop is fine.
Rather have the 500T traditional keyboard than the Surface touch too.

Wish they had made the 500T 4:3 with a 2048x1536 display ,
it would be an iPad killer then, for those who want to run windows anyhow.

Black Magic
Nov 8, 2012, 09:24 AM
I have no interest in buying one, but a friend of mine might be. He's a Ford technician and wants to be able to access some special Ford sites. His iPad cannot display them, presumably because of Flash, however he bought the Galaxy Nexus 7 and that wouldn't work either. Apparently they geared the site to work with Microsoft stuff only.

The only disadvantage of the Surface is it has no cellular option and I'm not sure if he has WiFi in the shop or not.

I've heard the Surface is touch and go with flash as well. It's not fully compatible and websites have to be on Microsoft's approved list or something like that.

spinedoc77
Nov 8, 2012, 09:41 AM
I've heard the Surface is touch and go with flash as well. It's not fully compatible and websites have to be on Microsoft's approved list or something like that.

For the RT that may be true AND from what I read it only applies to the metro version of IE10. From what I understand the desktop IE10 shouldn't have any issues with flash, but I don't known that first hand. What I do know first hand is that on the Pro models Flash works perfectly, at least in the desktop browser. The metro browser is completely useless IMO.

jmgregory1
Nov 9, 2012, 03:18 PM
I've said this before, but does having a bluetooth keyboard and the smartcover prop up your ipad make it any less of a tablet? Just because you have the option, doesn't mean it directly relies on it for basic functionality. It's there for when you want to do some indepth typing, or prop up the tablet.

----------



If you take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet, then it's a tablet. Everything else is exaggeration.

Like what's so much worse about the onscreen keyboard than the one on the iPad?

Awful horrible pixel density? It's about 155 PPI, give or take. Not as high as the iPad, no. But awful? Hardly. We've been getting by on 72-100 PPI for years and years now. Retina displays might make them look pale by comparison, but they're suddenly no longer usable.

Strange touch behaviors? Like using three fingers and swiping upwards to access the app tray is so much easier than swiping from the edge of the screen to flip through apps like cards. There's nothing inherently more difficult to use on the Surface touchwise than the iPad.

Ergonomics? ....maybe. I'm not totally sold on a widescreen tablet myself. I don't think it's terrible, but I'm wondering if it's as comfortable to hold as an iPad.

App selection? It's got a healthy number of them, though nowhere near the selection you get on the App Store yet. This is true.

Really, it sounds less like you've had a bad experience, and more like you just don't want to like the thing.

I'm with Noisemaker. Everything MS is doing is promoting Surface as a netbook/laptop. The idea of running full MS programs, which of course are not made to be touch screen compatible/effective, is only for use as a laptop. That's the selling feature so many (Spinedoc, I'm pointing at you) use, then add "of course you can take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet too" kind of as an afterthought. An afterthought is exactly what it is.

I'm ok with that, but then just be honest about it. It's a thin and light small screened laptop that also happens to be a touchscreen tablet (minus the apps built around using it this way). The iPad wasn't designed to be a small screen-only form factor laptop. Apps have been designed to use it in the way that it was intended (holding it and using your fingers to swipe, point and type). Just watch the commercial for the Surface - it's all about using the kickstand and keyboard. It's a fricking small screened laptop. Woohoo!

spinedoc77
Nov 9, 2012, 03:29 PM
I'm with Noisemaker. Everything MS is doing is promoting Surface as a netbook/laptop. The idea of running full MS programs, which of course are not made to be touch screen compatible/effective, is only for use as a laptop. That's the selling feature so many (Spinedoc, I'm pointing at you) use, then add "of course you can take the keyboard off and use it as a tablet too" kind of as an afterthought. An afterthought is exactly what it is.

I'm ok with that, but then just be honest about it. It's a thin and light small screened laptop that also happens to be a touchscreen tablet (minus the apps built around using it this way). The iPad wasn't designed to be a small screen-only form factor laptop. Apps have been designed to use it in the way that it was intended (holding it and using your fingers to swipe, point and type). Just watch the commercial for the Surface - it's all about using the kickstand and keyboard. It's a fricking small screened laptop. Woohoo!

Why is it an afterthought? You are not proving your point very well with all due respect. There are no programs which are meant to be only used on a laptop IMO. I've already stated how easy it is to use Photoshop in desktop mode while on the tablet for example, using the S-pen on my Samsung device. I don't think you get more "desktopish" than Photoshop. How about Office, once again I can easily be MUCH more productive in tablet mode. Now if I want to go laptop mode, which is silly to even call it that, what you refer to is simply connecting to a keyboard, I can simply connect a bluetooth keyboard and voila, a laptop.

The one thing you are correct about is that the ipad was NOT designed to be used in the same way. The ipad is a tablet and ONLY a tablet, you can shoehorn it into a laptop but it will still remain heavily shoehorned. The difference on the win PRO devices is they are not being shoehorned, they ARE truly full windows devices. I am very confused why this obvious point isn't clicking with you. You keep clinging to the small screen/touch interface thing, but once again the beauty is connecting a large screen right to it, connecting a keyboard, mouse etc. when you need that functionality, and when you need to travel you can unplug it all and simply put your ENTIRE computer under your arm and travel with it, that's what is amazing about this paradigm shift Microsoft has introduced.

Carouser
Nov 9, 2012, 03:39 PM
The one thing you are correct about is that the ipad was NOT designed to be used in the same way. The ipad is a tablet and ONLY a tablet, you can shoehorn it into a laptop but it will still remain heavily shoehorned. The difference on the win PRO devices is they are not being shoehorned, they ARE truly full windows devices. I am very confused why this obvious point isn't clicking with you. You keep clinging to the small screen/touch interface thing, but once again the beauty is connecting a large screen right to it, connecting a keyboard, mouse etc. when you need that functionality, and when you need to travel you can unplug it all and simply put your ENTIRE computer under your arm and travel with it, that's what is amazing about this paradigm shift Microsoft has introduced.

People with laptops unplug everything and put their entire computer under their arm and travel with it.

iPads are full computers by any definition which isn't self-serving and selective.

There's no paradigm shift here at all.

spinedoc77
Nov 9, 2012, 03:46 PM
People with laptops unplug everything and put their entire computer under their arm and travel with it.

iPads are full computers by any definition which isn't self-serving and selective.

There's no paradigm shift here at all.

Give me a 9mm thick laptop with a touchscreen and 14 hour battery life, yeah I thought so. If it wasn't a paradigm shift then the ipad would not be as incredibly popular as it is, doh?

iPads are computers, so is my the stereo in my car, what's your point? Shoehorning an ipad into the role of a desktop computer may work for some, but not for others. You can't shoehorn Windows into Windows, it is a full OS no matter what in regards to the Pro units. There is a huge difference for my needs, for others needs the difference may be of varying importance filtering all the way down to someone who only wants to consume media and nothing else. But IMO if you can consume media AND have a full OS with the same form factor, battery life and price then why would you sell yourself short?

Carouser
Nov 9, 2012, 03:57 PM
Give me a 9mm thick laptop with a touchscreen and 14 hour battery life, yeah I thought so. If it wasn't a paradigm shift then the ipad would not be as incredibly popular as it is, doh?

It almost sounds like you are arguing that the iPad is popular in spite of itself, that it has sold millions despite all all its deficiencies, and that there's a significant demand to turn it into a laptop where you can remove the keyboard. I don't think Microsoft has introduced any sort of 'paradigm shift' and you still haven't convinced me of it. It's clearly a reactionary response to the iPad (which is what really transformed the market).

spinedoc77
Nov 9, 2012, 04:04 PM
It almost sounds like you are arguing that the iPad is popular in spite of itself, that it has sold millions despite all all its deficiencies, and that there's a significant demand to turn it into a laptop where you can remove the keyboard. I don't think Microsoft has introduced any sort of 'paradigm shift' and you still haven't convinced me of it. It's clearly a reactionary response to the iPad (which is what really transformed the market).

Yes I do think in many ways the iPad is popular in spite of itself, in other ways it is pure genius and incredibly revolutionary. iOS is a product of not having the technology to put OSx into a tablet, IMO it all goes back to this. The paradigm shift happened when the ipad exploded, similar to the paradigm shift of desktop to laptop. If you can't see the paradigm shift towards tablets then I'd be rude to call you blind, but obviously Tablets are selling in incredible numbers. What Microsoft is doing, admittedly with piss poor execution, is reuniting computer users with their OS. Instead of a "post PC" era the ipad introduced us to the "yet another device and different OS I have to lug around" era, but it had to be that way due to technology. Now that technology has caught up and we can truly have a real OS on a tablet I think people will appreciate and like that. It doesn't mean the ipad won't be wildly popular anymore, it's still a fashion statement and is great at media consumption, but I think more and more consumers will look at their computer at home and wonder why they can't just take that with them instead of iOS.

As for convincing, meh it's overrated I could care less. I rather enjoy the interesting conversation more than anything else. In the end no one can predict the future, It's just a very interesting time to live in. Who knows who will be the next Apple and come up with something else and everything we all thought will once again be turned onto its head.

jmgregory1
Nov 10, 2012, 04:50 AM
Why is it an afterthought? You are not proving your point very well with all due respect. There are no programs which are meant to be only used on a laptop IMO. I've already stated how easy it is to use Photoshop in desktop mode while on the tablet for example, using the S-pen on my Samsung device. I don't think you get more "desktopish" than Photoshop. How about Office, once again I can easily be MUCH more productive in tablet mode. Now if I want to go laptop mode, which is silly to even call it that, what you refer to is simply connecting to a keyboard, I can simply connect a bluetooth keyboard and voila, a laptop.

The one thing you are correct about is that the ipad was NOT designed to be used in the same way. The ipad is a tablet and ONLY a tablet, you can shoehorn it into a laptop but it will still remain heavily shoehorned. The difference on the win PRO devices is they are not being shoehorned, they ARE truly full windows devices. I am very confused why this obvious point isn't clicking with you. You keep clinging to the small screen/touch interface thing, but once again the beauty is connecting a large screen right to it, connecting a keyboard, mouse etc. when you need that functionality, and when you need to travel you can unplug it all and simply put your ENTIRE computer under your arm and travel with it, that's what is amazing about this paradigm shift Microsoft has introduced.

The paradigm shift happened already with the introduction of the iPad. What MS is trying to do is go backwards, not forwards. They want to you and everyone else to keep using their desktop OS because that's what they know. They've clearly convinced you that is the way forward. And my point, if I haven't been clear, is that a desktop/laptop program is not designed around a touchscreen device, but MS wants you to use them this way, because what they really created was simply a laptop with detachable screen.

And if you think consumers have been enamored with their crappy home pc's to the point where they want to take them with them everywhere, you must be living in another universe, because that's not what I'm hearing or seeing from people. I hear things like "I just want to be able to have my emails, pictures, music, documents, calendars, etc accessible on whatever device I use". That doesn't mean people want the OS to be the same or even that they give a hoot about the OS at all. I'll make a generalization here, but most people, I believe, just want things to work. That's what Apple has been providing and MS is struggling to get to that point. That's been the basic difference between Mac and PC over the years.

spinedoc77
Nov 10, 2012, 06:18 AM
The paradigm shift happened already with the introduction of the iPad. What MS is trying to do is go backwards, not forwards. They want to you and everyone else to keep using their desktop OS because that's what they know. They've clearly convinced you that is the way forward. And my point, if I haven't been clear, is that a desktop/laptop program is not designed around a touchscreen device, but MS wants you to use them this way, because what they really created was simply a laptop with detachable screen.

And if you think consumers have been enamored with their crappy home pc's to the point where they want to take them with them everywhere, you must be living in another universe, because that's not what I'm hearing or seeing from people. I hear things like "I just want to be able to have my emails, pictures, music, documents, calendars, etc accessible on whatever device I use". That doesn't mean people want the OS to be the same or even that they give a hoot about the OS at all. I'll make a generalization here, but most people, I believe, just want things to work. That's what Apple has been providing and MS is struggling to get to that point. That's been the basic difference between Mac and PC over the years.

Certainly the paradigm shift happened with the ipad, I think I said that about 10 times. Apple deserves credit for single handedly causing that paradigm shift.

Programs can be designed for both touchscreen and traditional mouse keyboard use. There are a lot of laptops and even desktops which are coming out now that have touchscreens and the possibilities are infinite. The problem is that Microsoft is doing a piss poor job of integrating touch with traditional computing, the idea is sound but the execution is horrible. You keep trying to split up tablets and laptops, but the point is that you can have them BOTH. I understand the software is still very young at this point, but when iOS first came out no one ever imagined what it would be capable of a couple of years later. There is a divide between touchscreen programs with big buttons and sliders, and desktop programs, but worrying about this is a serious lack of foresight. Certainly software developers will strive to unify the experience in meaningful ways. Windows 8 is trying to do that, even Apple is trying to do that in incorporating iOS elements into OSx, you don't think they see the writing on the wall? It will take time as people catch on, but the UI will evolve into something which allows both touch and traditional computing to make sense at the same time. You sound like someone in the 90s saying "Laptops will never catch on".

As for wanting a simple, or better termed "dumb" tablet, I don't understand that argument. A windows tablet will easily fill that "dumb tablet" role for the SAME price, size and battery life, but you also get a full OS if that's what you want. I can set up my Windows tablet to just watch videos, pictures, music, etc and do it just as easily as the ipad, along with cloud capabilities. Basically there is nothing the ipad can do that a windows tablet cannot do just as easily, but the reverse does not hold true. At this point it's mainly a fashion show, it's much more trendy and cool to have an Apple product than to have a MS product, this is evidenced by sales of something as lackluster as the ipad mini for example.

As for PC versus Mac and things "just working", that's such a fantasy I won't even go into it that much. I'm assuming you meant PC versus iOS though, but even then I don't get it. In my experience with a windows 8 tablet everything "just worked" just as much as it did with my ipad which choked on web pages, didn't run flash, etc etc. This is a fantasy that is perpetuated by fanboys which is just not true.

What MS is doing IS the way forward. The ipad will forever remain something which introduced another OS and another device to carry around, instead of consolidating existing devices it created another one. What I hear, if you want to give weight to anecdotal evidence, is why can't I take notes on this thing? Why can't I edit my Office documents on this thing in a productive way? Why can't I draw on this thing? Why can't I run photoshop on this thing? Why can't I run Windows software on this thing? But someone with a Win8 tablet will never say Why can't I look at pictures, why can't I watch movies, why can't I listen to music, because they can. So if your argument is that the ipad is more functional then I challenge you to tell me what the ipad can do that a windows tablet can't do.

Now with that said the caveat here is that MS is really really borking their chances with an unfinished OS and a fragmented market with RT. The strategy is sound, but they may end up failing because of their execution. At the end of the day a windows tablet may not be for you, you may prefer the "dumb" tablet execution of purely media consumption, but as you've already admitted you don't even own an ipad so you can't even anecdotally make a case either way, especially if you haven't even tried a windows tablet.

cynics
Nov 10, 2012, 06:42 AM
The worst thing about the iPad is iOS! Its SOOO limiting you need to own a PC/Mac as part of its own function....not so much after iOS 5. This is one of the main reasons I went with an Android tablet. I have access to a file system and can download anything. Only thing I've ever connected it to my computer for is rooting reasons initially....

Generally I just dock it connected to my TV then use a blue tooth keyboard/mouse from the couch...

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/10/y2yty4u6.jpg

I like the full OS direction MS is going....

jmgregory1
Nov 10, 2012, 02:17 PM
I disagree - the idea of creating apps that are both touchscreen and traditional keyboard and mouse is not something that makes any sense. You type on a flat horizontal plane and it is not natural or even physically easy to shift from typing to screen touches.

You can argue otherwise, but until you can show me how your fingers are able to grow and shrink as they move from horizontal to vertical touch, I won't believe it.

And as far as iOS and your former iPad choking on websites and not running flash, those are not incidents related to problems with iOS or the iPad. They're crappy coding by lazy developers and designers.

The idea that the iPad is a dumb tablet, is your opinion based upon what? That you couldn't run what apps or programs? Please be specific? If you mean it can't run full windows programs, you're again missing the point of what the iPad was designed to do. It's not, nor does it need to be, a full on keyboard driven computer. Apps are supposed to be created to fully use the touch interface and MS is simply trying to buy time with their two OS surface, for developers to re-write MS apps to be touch driven.

12dylan34
Nov 10, 2012, 02:22 PM
I considered it, but looked at how thick and clunky the Windows 8 Pro version hardware looked and decided I won't fork over money for something that looks like that. It's definitely more capable than the iPad, but I won't have it.

spinedoc77
Nov 10, 2012, 03:16 PM
I disagree - the idea of creating apps that are both touchscreen and traditional keyboard and mouse is not something that makes any sense. You type on a flat horizontal plane and it is not natural or even physically easy to shift from typing to screen touches.

You can argue otherwise, but until you can show me how your fingers are able to grow and shrink as they move from horizontal to vertical touch, I won't believe it.

And as far as iOS and your former iPad choking on websites and not running flash, those are not incidents related to problems with iOS or the iPad. They're crappy coding by lazy developers and designers.

The idea that the iPad is a dumb tablet, is your opinion based upon what? That you couldn't run what apps or programs? Please be specific? If you mean it can't run full windows programs, you're again missing the point of what the iPad was designed to do. It's not, nor does it need to be, a full on keyboard driven computer. Apps are supposed to be created to fully use the touch interface and MS is simply trying to buy time with their two OS surface, for developers to re-write MS apps to be touch driven.

Microsoft office works wonderfully as a hybrid using both touch and keyboard/mouse. I'd have my tablet set up like a laptop about a foot away, with my keyboard and mouse connected. I'd use a combination of swipes, zooming in/out, selecting stuff, etc with touch, and be able to type and do fine manipulation with the mouse. I understand you don't want to budge from your work paradigm, but I found it an awesome pleasure to work on reports and a project involving lots of image manipulation and text input using this paradigm. I used both powerpoint and Word this way and it was certainly an enlightening experience, I can't imagine how great this would be on a larger display like some of the all in one Windows 8 desktops with touch screens which are being released.

As far as iOS choking, that was the fault of iOS and the ipads hardware. This is the same old argument, chop off your nose to spite your face. The internet sucks at times, flash slows stuff down sometimes, web developers suck at times and make very inefficient web pages. The answer isn't to block your customers from viewing those websites. All those same sites that choked my ipad ran smooth as butter on my Win tablet, telling me that at least MS understands that you have to work with what you have instead of blocking the inefficient elements out there.

Yes the ipad is a dumb tablet, and I say that fondly. It cannot run any full OS program, and part of that is the inefficiency of having only touch, which reinforces the argument for a hybrid model in which touch is only part of the equation. Once again though I don't understand what you are arguing, you can buy ALL of the features of the ipad on a windows 8 tablet for the same price, form factor and battery life and completely ignore docking/laptop mode, or the windows desktop. You can basically have an ipad if that's what you want. No one said the ipad needed to be a full on keyboard driven device, but there sure as heck are a lot of people who try to use it that way. Once again we come back to choice, options, being able to choose how you want to be productive. If all else is equal then I'll take the hardware and software which will give me that choice.

Your argument might have legs if Windows Pro hardware wasn't the same price, form factor and battery life as the ipad, but it is. There are definitely functions which consumers will want a touch only interface, there are definitely functions where consumers will want a stylus driven interface. There are definitely functions where consumers will want a keyboard/mouse interface. There are definitely functions where consumers will want a hybrid touch/keyboard/mouse interface. How many of those functions does the ipad give you the choice of?

----------

I considered it, but looked at how thick and clunky the Windows 8 Pro version hardware looked and decided I won't fork over money for something that looks like that. It's definitely more capable than the iPad, but I won't have it.

The windows Pro hardware with the Atom processor is the same thickness, form factor, and at least same battery life if not better than the ipad. The ivy bridge units are slightly thicker, but IMO that's a different crowd than the person who would be buying an ipad.

Marco123
Nov 10, 2012, 03:19 PM
I sold my ipad 3 last week so that I could purchase a surface.
I am really looking forward to buying one. The metro interface, touchpad and micro USB sealed the deal for me.
I am sick and tired of apples walled garden approach to things, I guess I've grown sick of ios.
I changed my iphone5 to a galaxyS3 this week and am really appreciating the change from apple and the way they do things.

Joesmith13245
Nov 11, 2012, 07:48 PM
Going to wait for the Surface Pro to come out. Will be able to kill two birds with one stone by using Surface Pro as a fully functional laptop and tablet.

jmgregory1
Nov 12, 2012, 12:47 PM
Microsoft office works wonderfully as a hybrid using both touch and keyboard/mouse. I'd have my tablet set up like a laptop about a foot away, with my keyboard and mouse connected. I'd use a combination of swipes, zooming in/out, selecting stuff, etc with touch, and be able to type and do fine manipulation with the mouse. I understand you don't want to budge from your work paradigm, but I found it an awesome pleasure to work on reports and a project involving lots of image manipulation and text input using this paradigm. I used both powerpoint and Word this way and it was certainly an enlightening experience, I can't imagine how great this would be on a larger display like some of the all in one Windows 8 desktops with touch screens which are being released.

As far as iOS choking, that was the fault of iOS and the ipads hardware. This is the same old argument, chop off your nose to spite your face. The internet sucks at times, flash slows stuff down sometimes, web developers suck at times and make very inefficient web pages. The answer isn't to block your customers from viewing those websites. All those same sites that choked my ipad ran smooth as butter on my Win tablet, telling me that at least MS understands that you have to work with what you have instead of blocking the inefficient elements out there.

Yes the ipad is a dumb tablet, and I say that fondly. It cannot run any full OS program, and part of that is the inefficiency of having only touch, which reinforces the argument for a hybrid model in which touch is only part of the equation. Once again though I don't understand what you are arguing, you can buy ALL of the features of the ipad on a windows 8 tablet for the same price, form factor and battery life and completely ignore docking/laptop mode, or the windows desktop. You can basically have an ipad if that's what you want. No one said the ipad needed to be a full on keyboard driven device, but there sure as heck are a lot of people who try to use it that way. Once again we come back to choice, options, being able to choose how you want to be productive. If all else is equal then I'll take the hardware and software which will give me that choice.

Your argument might have legs if Windows Pro hardware wasn't the same price, form factor and battery life as the ipad, but it is. There are definitely functions which consumers will want a touch only interface, there are definitely functions where consumers will want a stylus driven interface. There are definitely functions where consumers will want a keyboard/mouse interface. There are definitely functions where consumers will want a hybrid touch/keyboard/mouse interface. How many of those functions does the ipad give you the choice of?

----------



The windows Pro hardware with the Atom processor is the same thickness, form factor, and at least same battery life if not better than the ipad. The ivy bridge units are slightly thicker, but IMO that's a different crowd than the person who would be buying an ipad.

I am all about doing things differently, unlike you who wants to keep doing things the way you're used to (or so you've said). I don't believe that moving between keyboard and on-screen finger motions is normal or intuitive. There is a reason those AIO touchscreen desktops are not selling well - because it's a crap user interface. It might be different if the screen were at the same plane as your hands, maybe slightly angled up at the back and you manipulated and type directly on the screen, but that's not how it's set up and no one is suggesting such a system.

You say manipulating images in word is easier using your fingers on-screen - did you not do this on your (or your wife's) MacBook Air using the trackpad? I know Windows has significant issues with trackpad operation and that most windows users have issues moving over to Mac OS, in part because they can't get used to using their fingers to do the work of the mouse (even my wife, a Mac user at work still hasn't figured out finger gestures).

So I'll say this yet again, your usage patterns are saying you use the Windows tablet as a laptop.

My blaming poor code writing and the use of flash isn't a cop-out. It's true. I've disabled flash on my laptop because it sucks resources and kills battery life. I'm not one to accept aiming to satisfy the lowest common denominator, which is certainly the trap that MS has operated in and is now stuck in. Calling iOS or even Android or any mobile operating system anything less than a full computer operating system is foolish - at best. It's not what you know, not what you're comfortable with and certainly there are lots of companies who have not ported their desktop applications to mobile OS, but that doesn't mean you have to accept doing things the old way as the only way (you might accept that but others don't and haven't).

I'm not going to support the iPad other than to say all of the things you noted, keyboard, mouse, touchpad, stylus all can and do work with the iPad. These things are, in part, driven by the apps and app developers based upon providing exactly what they want the user to be able to do.

You note that you didn't like not having Office on the iPad, but you could have, if you so chose, to create Word, Excel and Powerpoint documents using Apple's own iWork apps or any of the other apps that allow cross platform document creation.

Liquorpuki
Nov 12, 2012, 01:03 PM
Planning to buy a 128GB Pro with a Type Cover. Went to a MS store in Glendale yesterday and played around with the RT and the different covers. It's a well-designed tablet. Even my "I'm never going back to Windows" girlfriend was impressed. The type cover is great

I already know what I'd use it for - MS Office, Matlab, third party vendor software for work, Studio One, and Guild Wars 2. Movies and Photos will go on the MicroSD.

Only things I'm worried about is the battery life and how hot it might get with that i5 chip. The ASUS Transformer Book runs an i7 and gets about 5 hours and runs really hot to the touch. We'll see how good MS's engineering is

spinedoc77
Nov 12, 2012, 01:20 PM
I am all about doing things differently, unlike you who wants to keep doing things the way you're used to (or so you've said). I don't believe that moving between keyboard and on-screen finger motions is normal or intuitive. There is a reason those AIO touchscreen desktops are not selling well - because it's a crap user interface. It might be different if the screen were at the same plane as your hands, maybe slightly angled up at the back and you manipulated and type directly on the screen, but that's not how it's set up and no one is suggesting such a system.

You say manipulating images in word is easier using your fingers on-screen - did you not do this on your (or your wife's) MacBook Air using the trackpad? I know Windows has significant issues with trackpad operation and that most windows users have issues moving over to Mac OS, in part because they can't get used to using their fingers to do the work of the mouse (even my wife, a Mac user at work still hasn't figured out finger gestures).

So I'll say this yet again, your usage patterns are saying you use the Windows tablet as a laptop.

My blaming poor code writing and the use of flash isn't a cop-out. It's true. I've disabled flash on my laptop because it sucks resources and kills battery life. I'm not one to accept aiming to satisfy the lowest common denominator, which is certainly the trap that MS has operated in and is now stuck in. Calling iOS or even Android or any mobile operating system anything less than a full computer operating system is foolish - at best. It's not what you know, not what you're comfortable with and certainly there are lots of companies who have not ported their desktop applications to mobile OS, but that doesn't mean you have to accept doing things the old way as the only way (you might accept that but others don't and haven't).

I'm not going to support the iPad other than to say all of the things you noted, keyboard, mouse, touchpad, stylus all can and do work with the iPad. These things are, in part, driven by the apps and app developers based upon providing exactly what they want the user to be able to do.

You note that you didn't like not having Office on the iPad, but you could have, if you so chose, to create Word, Excel and Powerpoint documents using Apple's own iWork apps or any of the other apps that allow cross platform document creation.

At the end of the day our experiences differ. I don't use my tablet as a laptop in bed, or on the subway, etc, but I do use it as a laptop when, well when I need it as a laptop, I'm not sure what your point is on that. As for using touch and type, that's how I like to work, it increases my workflow and productivity and seems very natural to work this way. I believe we BOTH don't want to veer from our established usage patterns, and that's ok but we are just going to continue to disagree forever. My initial point was that there are consumers who will utilize this format, not you, but these consumers do exist, in what quantity I suppose we will find out going forward.

Manipulating stuff using the trackpad is unintuitive to me, there is a degree of separation between my fingers on the trackpad and just touching the screen. I'm not a big trackpad user anyway, much preferring a mouse, or more recently a touchscreen. I don't doubt you have a valid point, I'm 20+ years using a mouse and could not switch over to a trackpad, but then again I switched from a mouse to a touchscreen almost instantly. When you say my usage patterns say I use my tablet as a laptop, I don't understand the significance of that? It's a tablet when I need it to be a tablet, as I stated before it's nice to have that OPTION, that choice to pop it off and travel with it, use it on the subway, in bed, hanging upside down from the Eiffel tower, or however I want to use it.

As for Flash, that's an old argument I could care less about debating. You have Apples approach which is to just shut out any Flash usage a consumer may have, cutting off its own nose to spite its face. Sure I get the white knight altruistic (yeah right) pinings of Apple to rid the world of the evil Flash, but if it is going to take years to do I'd rather not be forced into that world by having a neutered device. Once again it's choice, a Flash on/off switch, etc. It's a cop out, give me the internet the way it is today, or don't give it to me at all. Once again let me relate to you that on my Windows tablet I have NO issues viewing Flash whatsoever, video, websites, etc, there is some cpu overhead, but it doesn't slow down my web experience. What slowed down my web experience on my ipad 3 was the crappy cpu/gpu they put in there which choked on graphic intensive webpages MUCH more than any Flash site I have ever visited.

iOS for me is not a full OS, it's watered down, you have to compromise a LOT by having only a touch interface and the programs show this compromise, of course that is my use, I need more than a media consumption device. Certainly I can ask the same question of you, why haven't you purchased an ipad? Why haven't you replaced your laptop or desktop with an ipad? Guess what, I have replaced my desktop and my laptop with a windows tablet, there is the difference, it's really quite simple.

I didn't know mouse, stylus or touchpad worked with the ipad. Mouse support you can hack in with a jailbreak, but that's not a valid solution for the average consumer. Stylus support is a complete and utter joke, basically you have a rubber finger shaped as a pen, no digitizer, no pressure sensitivity, no support for handwriting recognition, etc etc. Touchpad I have no idea, but I'm not sure why anyone would use a touchpad with a touchscreen. iWork stinks, but that is my personal opinion and I won't say it's not, but for me it's not very productive to use. The vast majority of programs on the ipad are simply compromises to their desktop versions, you can shoehorn functionality out of them, but it's still just shoehorning at the end of the day.

It looks like a lot of this, as I stated before, is just differences in our usage patterns, although as I stated before I have not seen that you have actually used the ipad to replace anything in your life, am I correct? Additionally the argument continues to crumble apart when windows tablets are the same form factor, price and battery life of the ipads. Would we be having this same argument if Apple released an OSx tablet? Would you be comparing the ipad to OSx and saying how much better the ipad was? Maybe you would, I don't know.

Interesting stuff for sure anyhow, thanks for the continued civil and good discussion.

*Batman*
Jan 30, 2013, 08:19 PM
I've heard the Surface is touch and go with flash as well. It's not fully compatible and websites have to be on Microsoft's approved list or something like that.

In this case, Ford Motor Co. apparently is still running Windows 98 for there service departments :eek:. At least that's what I heard from my non-computer tech Ford service technician.

iHailCarlo
Jan 30, 2013, 09:44 PM
Hell no! It's a ripoff, will probably either get a newer iPad or a MacBook Air.