PDA

View Full Version : [tablets] Surface Bloat




poloponies
Nov 5, 2012, 09:01 PM
Not passing jusdgment but WTF? 16GB of the 32GB memory in the Surface is alredy occupied out of the box?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2013549/available-storage-on-microsoft-surface-rt-less-than-advertised.html



urkel
Nov 5, 2012, 09:13 PM
Just curious, but how much space does an iPad 16GB have left after you install The iWork App suite?

IMO, have office built in is probably a huge reason someone would choose surface RT over another OS so the bloat is probably tolerable. I was going to get my mom a surface because she uses a few office apps but ill wait until gen 2.

gmanist1000
Nov 5, 2012, 09:14 PM
Not passing jusdgment but WTF? 16GB of the 32GB memory in the Surface is alredy occupied out of the box?

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2013549/available-storage-on-microsoft-surface-rt-less-than-advertised.html

That's definitely misleading for consumers.

Southernboyj
Nov 5, 2012, 09:32 PM
Very misleading, but not false advertisement.

haruhiko
Nov 5, 2012, 09:34 PM
16GB iOS devices should have about 14GB for users.

Frankied22
Nov 5, 2012, 09:35 PM
Good ole Microsoft.

DingleButt
Nov 5, 2012, 10:06 PM
Just curious, but how much space does an iPad 16GB have left after you install The iWork App suite?

IMO, have office built in is probably a huge reason someone would choose surface RT over another OS so the bloat is probably tolerable. I was going to get my mom a surface because she uses a few office apps but ill wait until gen 2.

How much space does the ipad have left after you add support for 420 million peripherals, iWork, OS X desktop, OneNote, and offline recovery? In addition how expensive is it to buy a microSD card and throw it in the iPad to expand the memory? And then make it so that iWork doesnt screw up Docs and such people send you to collaborate on.

I do hope they shave the space down, but really its justified in some ways.

spinedoc77
Nov 6, 2012, 06:08 AM
Yeah this was a terrible move by MS IMO. My 64gb Winpro tablet had like 24gb eaten up by the windows install out of the box. It really shouldn't be advertised as 64gb. Well at least we get a microSD slot.

Dontazemebro
Nov 6, 2012, 06:26 AM
Are people missing out on the fact that it has a removable storage option plus ability to hook up to an external hard drive?

not a problem if you ask me ..... unless you're trying to download over 16 gigs worth of apps :D

jmgregory1
Nov 6, 2012, 07:07 AM
For those that talk about connectivity to 420 million usb devices - how many do YOU really want or need? I mean really? There are probably 100+ million mice in that figure - do you really need or want a mouse for a tablet? Same thing for usb keyboards. And usb speakers. Let's just go through the list of pointless things that need to be connected via usb to a tablet that's trying to be more than a tablet.

MS has got you MSheeple thinking wrong, again, about the path forward, simply because they were late to the game with a tablet platform. They're using the red herrings of usb device connectivity and desktop app compatibility to sell you on the fact that they don't know what they're doing - and you're of course believing them (sound familiar?).

And for those trying to make MS look "normal" for their poor system bloat, my iPhone with 16gb's has 5.5gb's of space used for apps, including the iWork apps and everything else I have from 3rd party apps, plus photos and some music (I'm iTunes matching most of it) and I have 8gb's of free space still, making the total used by the system AND the 73 apps I've got loaded taking up 8gb's of space.

poloponies
Nov 6, 2012, 08:10 AM
Are people missing out on the fact that it has a removable storage option plus ability to hook up to an external hard drive?

not a problem if you ask me ..... unless you're trying to download over 16 gigs worth of apps :D

I wasn't singling it out as a problem, just surprised at the fairly massive size of a "mobile" OS.

The Face
Nov 6, 2012, 08:51 AM
Microsoft are terrible for this sort of thing, it's just like the 20gb Xbox 360 HDD which only had 11gb or usable storage.

ChazUK
Nov 6, 2012, 09:26 AM
They should have thrown out all the desktop stuff to slim it down and done a Metro/Arm optimised version of Office if they really wanted that as a selling point.

It seems odd having such a bulky OS installed on these type of devices given the slim sizes of iOS and Android on tablets.

spinedoc77
Nov 6, 2012, 09:47 AM
For those that talk about connectivity to 420 million usb devices - how many do YOU really want or need? I mean really? There are probably 100+ million mice in that figure - do you really need or want a mouse for a tablet? Same thing for usb keyboards. And usb speakers. Let's just go through the list of pointless things that need to be connected via usb to a tablet that's trying to be more than a tablet.

MS has got you MSheeple thinking wrong, again, about the path forward, simply because they were late to the game with a tablet platform. They're using the red herrings of usb device connectivity and desktop app compatibility to sell you on the fact that they don't know what they're doing - and you're of course believing them (sound familiar?).

And for those trying to make MS look "normal" for their poor system bloat, my iPhone with 16gb's has 5.5gb's of space used for apps, including the iWork apps and everything else I have from 3rd party apps, plus photos and some music (I'm iTunes matching most of it) and I have 8gb's of free space still, making the total used by the system AND the 73 apps I've got loaded taking up 8gb's of space.

Meh, it's all about choice. Choice is nice to have. Sure I'm not going to use 450 million devices, but even if I use 5 devices it is significant to me. Do I really need a mouse and keyboard on my tablet? Yes at times I do. Just right now I made the choice to connect to my keyboard and mouse on my tablet to reply to you, all I had to do was place my tablet down near them and start typing. I could have chosen to hunt and peck on the screen keyboard, or I could have chose to pull out my stylus and handwrite my response to be text recognized. Choice is nice to have.

Every time I hear someone use "isheep" or your new term "mssheep" I know they are a fanboy on one side or the other. Most users in the real world are pretty eclectic and utilize whatever serves their needs best. I have a variety of Apple, Microsoft, Android, etc etc products and I use all of them.

IMO we went backwards with the introduction and adoption of the ipad, once again that's my opinion. Windows 8 Pro tablets are not meant to take us to the future, but rather to the present where we should never have had to have a 3rd operating system/device in our lives.

Like I said, it's all about choice. I can choose to make my win8 tablet a "dumb tablet" and run it like I would my ipad, that choice is there. Or I can choose to run it like my laptop or desktop, that choice is also there, and everything in between. Now that I have been shown that choice I will never go back, but once again that's just me.

ChazUK
Nov 6, 2012, 01:38 PM
Just took delivery of my 32gb Nexus 7. Out of the box, it came with the attached.

With regards to the SD and external storage on the Surface, can applications be installed to SD or external storage at all? I quickly found 16gb on my old Nexus 7 a limiting factor which is why I upgraded (even with Android's perceived lack of tablet apps and games). I also stream Google Music and use Plex on video streaming too so it isn't as if my tablet was full of media.

Jibbajabba
Nov 6, 2012, 01:41 PM
Good ole Microsoft.

^^ that

cynics
Nov 6, 2012, 02:04 PM
Can you delete stuff to gain the space back or is it built into the OS? I don't see a problem with just removing things you'll never use or keeping them if it comes in handy.

I currently have a 64gb sd card filled in my Xoom with movies. And 10 gb used on the internal memory with assorted files, game roms, etc. still have 20 gb left. So I could still easily use the surface.

Renzatic
Nov 6, 2012, 02:15 PM
Interesting and relevant Ars Technica article on the Surface's disk space (http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/11/surface-disk-space-a-bit-better-and-a-bit-worse-than-microsoft-says/?comments=1#comments-bar).

On one hand, it's commendable that MS is trying to turn even basic ARM tablets into fully functional computers. On the other, they really need to trim some fat if they want to stay competitive.

Right now the setup is Office, along with the OS itself, plus the pagefile is around 8GB. The recovery partition is around 4GB, plus around 300MB for the UEFI, and...yeah, it's complicated. The end result of only 16GB of a 32GB drive being usable is a little on the inexcusable side. MS needs to do some more work on this front.

jmgregory1
Nov 6, 2012, 03:43 PM
Meh, it's all about choice. Choice is nice to have. Sure I'm not going to use 450 million devices, but even if I use 5 devices it is significant to me. Do I really need a mouse and keyboard on my tablet? Yes at times I do. Just right now I made the choice to connect to my keyboard and mouse on my tablet to reply to you, all I had to do was place my tablet down near them and start typing. I could have chosen to hunt and peck on the screen keyboard, or I could have chose to pull out my stylus and handwrite my response to be text recognized. Choice is nice to have.

Every time I hear someone use "isheep" or your new term "mssheep" I know they are a fanboy on one side or the other. Most users in the real world are pretty eclectic and utilize whatever serves their needs best. I have a variety of Apple, Microsoft, Android, etc etc products and I use all of them.

IMO we went backwards with the introduction and adoption of the ipad, once again that's my opinion. Windows 8 Pro tablets are not meant to take us to the future, but rather to the present where we should never have had to have a 3rd operating system/device in our lives.

Like I said, it's all about choice. I can choose to make my win8 tablet a "dumb tablet" and run it like I would my ipad, that choice is there. Or I can choose to run it like my laptop or desktop, that choice is also there, and everything in between. Now that I have been shown that choice I will never go back, but once again that's just me.

You see it as choice, I see it as MS's stagnated thinking. It's something they've gotten very good at as they have lived off of what they built for a business over the past 20 years.

If you're not using the tablet as a tablet, then what you're really talking about is a thin and light laptop. That's what I've gathered from your previous posts. If the touch based OS isn't something you're using, then why get a tablet in the first place? MS is trying to live with one foot in the past and one in the present as they're not willing (or don't know how) to push forward.

For all those people who consider the iPad a toy, that it doesn't do business things, you're clearly not using any of the thousands, tens of thousands, of apps dedicated to business. Most of the iOS apps are not just small screened versions of desktop apps. They use the very basis for a tablet as part of the app.

Please explain to me what you do on the surface as a desktop based program? And then ask yourself why they (MS) have not made the app based around the very different functional aspects of the surface?

Sure, they've given you a choice of yet another netbook to do things the same way they've always done them, which is exactly how MS wants it.

And you like my MSheeple comment? Remember, I used MS based systems for decades. I hear people talk about blindly following Apple and it should be pointed out that there are more blind followers of MS than there are Apple, for now. Heck, a whole category of business has been built around blindly following (and fixing) MS products.

I may be different, but I'm tired of using crash prone software on crap hardware. There are a lot more better choices out there for doing the same sorts of things MS built their business on. And it goes beyond Apple.

Remember, I'm not using an iPad myself - I see no real purpose for me, right now. I'm typing this on my 13" mba, a superb thin and light laptop that gives me about 7 hours of normal usage and lets me open, edit and send any Office document, spreadsheet or presentation without ever opening a the horrid, crash-prone Office Mac apps. And I can do so on a usable 13" screen, fantastic keyboard and awesome touchpad (another thing that MS has not been able to duplicate or figure out). And I love being able to text people (who have an iPhone) from my mba using messages, given the speed benefit of using a real keyboard brings.

I remember the days of handwriting recognition - I used to use a Compaq iPaq back in the day and all I can say is I'm a much faster typer than I am a hand-writer.

spinedoc77
Nov 6, 2012, 05:27 PM
You see it as choice, I see it as MS's stagnated thinking. It's something they've gotten very good at as they have lived off of what they built for a business over the past 20 years.

If you're not using the tablet as a tablet, then what you're really talking about is a thin and light laptop. That's what I've gathered from your previous posts. If the touch based OS isn't something you're using, then why get a tablet in the first place? MS is trying to live with one foot in the past and one in the present as they're not willing (or don't know how) to push forward.

For all those people who consider the iPad a toy, that it doesn't do business things, you're clearly not using any of the thousands, tens of thousands, of apps dedicated to business. Most of the iOS apps are not just small screened versions of desktop apps. They use the very basis for a tablet as part of the app.

Please explain to me what you do on the surface as a desktop based program? And then ask yourself why they (MS) have not made the app based around the very different functional aspects of the surface?

Sure, they've given you a choice of yet another netbook to do things the same way they've always done them, which is exactly how MS wants it.

And you like my MSheeple comment? Remember, I used MS based systems for decades. I hear people talk about blindly following Apple and it should be pointed out that there are more blind followers of MS than there are Apple, for now. Heck, a whole category of business has been built around blindly following (and fixing) MS products.

I may be different, but I'm tired of using crash prone software on crap hardware. There are a lot more better choices out there for doing the same sorts of things MS built their business on. And it goes beyond Apple.

Remember, I'm not using an iPad myself - I see no real purpose for me, right now. I'm typing this on my 13" mba, a superb thin and light laptop that gives me about 7 hours of normal usage and lets me open, edit and send any Office document, spreadsheet or presentation without ever opening a the horrid, crash-prone Office Mac apps. And I can do so on a usable 13" screen, fantastic keyboard and awesome touchpad (another thing that MS has not been able to duplicate or figure out). And I love being able to text people (who have an iPhone) from my mba using messages, given the speed benefit of using a real keyboard brings.

I remember the days of handwriting recognition - I used to use a Compaq iPaq back in the day and all I can say is I'm a much faster typer than I am a hand-writer.

It IS choice, the ipad is still sold in stores last time I checked, so are Android tablets, as are laptops, netbooks and desktops. For MY choice I decided to replace ALL of those and get a single device that does it all. That works for me, it may not work for others, but for my business and personal needs it works quite well. The lack of choices on iOS for me relegated the ipad to a media consumption device at best, a toy at worst for me. Yeah it's a toy for ME, I understand there are many who can use it for productivity. Pages instead of Office and all that, but there certainly isn't anything I can't do on my tablet that iOS can do, but the opposite isn't true.

Your 2nd paragraph leaves me very confused as well. Why can't I have a tablet AND a laptop and all in the same device? Why do I have to choose between the 2? Personally you got me wrong, I use both the touch portion of the OS and the desktop. But I'm not a total MS fanboy, I understand that MS is making some mistakes with Windows 8, mistakes that will cost it iOS users IMO, and may even cause it not to reach a critical market share.

Mssheep, of course there are more fanboys. Doh? There are a heck of a lot more windows users than osx and ios. I just think what there are really not a lot of are true pure "sheep", most with an intelligent brain choose what works for them instead of blindly declaring allegiance not to a monarch, but a business who's sole purpose is to make money off of you.

As for crashes and software issues I've rarely had a problem in 20 years of using Windows. Certainly no more or less than using OSx, which IMO is much less productive than Windows, but once again that's purely based on my work habits. My windows tablet also has about the SAME amount of issues that my ipads over the years have had. Even if my windows tablets had some issues I would GLADLY take it because of the choice and freedom it offers me. Little things, today I started taking patient intake notes on my windows tablet with handwriting recognition, simply amazing and something I would never attempt on my ipad, or on a laptop. Yeah I had a MacBook Air too which I just sold, you're on crack if you get 7 hours of battery, on half brightness and if I was truly working I'd be lucky to get 3 or 4. I get close to 14 on my tablet, DOUBLE that if I connect it to a battery powered keyboard dock.

But as I've stated I'm a very eclectic user. Today I went to work early, read USA today on my windows tablet while in my lap. Then I plugged it into my dock setup and wrote a couple of reports on my keyboard with a mouse, was able to sign the reports without printing them and faxed them right from the tablet to another office. Then I unplugged it, fired up my patient contact software which is on Windows and HIPAA compatible for patient privacy and legality and I took patient encounter notes with the handwriting recognition. For lunch I took handwritten notes at a luncheon and then did some research. When I got home I hooked up my dock again and typewrote a response here. Later on I will work on a chapter on core exercise I am helping a colleague to write, I can type, draw, annotate, use Photoshop, etc as I work. Later on I will lie in bed and peruse the internet while lying down. That's a lot of choice and freedom to do things for me.

Technarchy
Nov 6, 2012, 11:50 PM
I think people need to concede Windows 8 RT is not a mobile OS like iOS, so those expectations need to go out the window...pun intended.

Windows 8 RT is a desktop class OS crammed onto ARM with a few Windows 8 Pro components missing.

watchthisspace
Nov 7, 2012, 12:06 AM
I think people need to concede Windows 8 RT is not a mobile OS like iOS, so those expectations need to go out the window...pun intended.

Windows 8 RT is a desktop class OS crammed onto ARM with a few Windows 8 Pro components missing.

It isn't 8 RT. It's just Windows RT. The only apps that have the traditional "Desktop" available for them are the pre-installed Windows Software.

RT is not a desktop class OS. It doesn't run Win32 apps and can't do many of the things a desktop class OS can.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33642_7-57454524-292/just-what-is-windows-rt-anyway-faq/

http://www.techradar.com/news/software/operating-systems/windows-8-vs-windows-rt-whats-the-difference-1086980

vistadude
Nov 7, 2012, 12:11 AM
This is a full functioned pc, not something limited like an ipad.

A macbook air has more than 25 GB of OS and bloat by apple
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1385552

I'd say microsoft did very well by having the OS, office, and other software fit within 16 gb.

ChazUK
Nov 7, 2012, 12:24 AM
This is a full functioned pc, not something limited like an ipad.

It doesn't seem to me that RT is being marketed as a full functioning Windows PC. Very limited desktop capability with no way to install your own OS on it in any way shape or form.

An ARM build of Linux could turn the surface into a full fledged PC option but we all know that is impossible as you can't install any third party operating system on there.

All metro apps are sandboxed and there is no way to install third party applications beyond the Windows store (yet). It's an extremely limited PC option if it is considered to be one.

Renzatic
Nov 7, 2012, 12:35 AM
An ARM build of Linux could turn the surface into a full fledged PC option but we all know that is impossible as you can't install any third party operating system on there.

I thought you were able to, provided the distro you use is signed and authorized for the UEFI?

thejadedmonkey
Nov 7, 2012, 12:54 AM
You're comparing Windows 8 to iOS, why not compare Windows 8 to OS X, or Ubuntu? Than add in all of OS X's pre-installed programs, such as Garage Band? You're confusing the software it's running due to the form factor. And 8gb Windows + Office install is fantastic. a 5gb recovery partition isn't bad at all (considering it's 8gb's of info) and then you're complaining about it?

My 128gb Air only had something like 94gb's free. You don't hear me complaining about the missing 34GB (which is about 2x as much as the surface uses).

ChazUK
Nov 7, 2012, 01:11 AM
I thought you were able to, provided the distro you use is signed and authorized for the UEFI?

I think that applies to the Surface Pro only. I don't think its possible on the Surface RT.

ReanimationN
Nov 7, 2012, 09:32 AM
If you're not using the tablet as a tablet, then what you're really talking about is a thin and light laptop. That's what I've gathered from your previous posts. If the touch based OS isn't something you're using, then why get a tablet in the first place? MS is trying to live with one foot in the past and one in the present as they're not willing (or don't know how) to push forward.What if you're using it as both?
Please explain to me what you do on the surface as a desktop based program? And then ask yourself why they (MS) have not made the app based around the very different functional aspects of the surface?I'd say the vast majority of desktop programs being used aren't made by Microsoft at all, so asking why Microsoft haven't made the app touch based and for the Metro/Modern UI is silly. That'd be like asking "Microsoft, why haven't you made ArcGIS touch based for the Surface??", that's not Microsoft's doing, ESRI makes ArcGIS. And same goes for every other desktop program- iTunes (Apple), StarCraft 2 (Blizzard), FL Studio (Image-Line) and so on.

And what would you do with desktop apps? Use the enormous, powerful back catalogue of Windows software to do whatever you want!
Sure, they've given you a choice of yet another netbook to do things the same way they've always done them, which is exactly how MS wants it.Netbooks never had touchscreens with a UI built for touch running on them. Plus mobile x86 processors have come a long way since the netbook's heyday.

Also, spinedoc, your tablet sounds amazing- you're making me jealous. ;) Can't wait for the Surface Pro.

TheHateMachine
Nov 7, 2012, 09:48 AM
Can you delete stuff to gain the space back or is it built into the OS? I don't see a problem with just removing things you'll never use or keeping them if it comes in handy.

I currently have a 64gb sd card filled in my Xoom with movies. And 10 gb used on the internal memory with assorted files, game roms, etc. still have 20 gb left. So I could still easily use the surface.

You can delete pretty much every built in app. I reduced mine down to only Email, Social(Facebook), Xbox Music, Office 2013 and the Windows Store.