CHRISTmas, do you celebrate and why???

[crdean1]

Some people in recent threads said that they have started to see ads for Christmas already....which made me think of this question.

1. Do you celebrate Christmas?

2. Are you a Christian?

If you do celebrate Christmas and are not a Christian, then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (the birth of the savior)?

Thought this might be a good topic.

Alright everyone, let it fly.

[iGary]

Some people in recent threads said that they have started to see ads for Christmas already....which made me think of this question.

1. Do you celebrate Christmas?

2. Are you a Christian?

If you do celebrate Christmas and are not a Christian, then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (the birth of the savior)?

Thought this might be a good topic.

Alright everyone, let it fly.

Because it has become as much a secular holiday as a religious one.

[mpw]

Here we go again.
1. No
2. No
I don't do Christmas for me although I'm practically forced into it by society. Luckily it's got very little to do with anything religious for most people so I'm only being forced to drink more, eat more, watch TV more and work less so it ain't all bad.

[edesignuk]

I couldn't give a crap about the "meaning" of christmas, but I "celebrate" it because:

A) It's a few days public holiday ;)
B) Present giving/reveiving time :D
C) Booze and food :p

[jsw]

I celebrate Christmas but am an atheist.

Why do I celebrate it?

I don't celebrate the "birth of Christ", which almost undoubtedly was not on December 25th. That day was chosen to fit into the already-existing Roman festival for Sol Invictus, which was nearly coincident with the very popular Saturnalia celebrations, which were in turn "appropriated" from even earlier pagan festivals at that time of year.

I celebrate Xmas because I enjoy the holiday spirit, because I was raised Catholic and so am drawn to it because of childhood experiences, and because I love doing the Santa thing with my kids.

Really, I think I celebrate that holiday season, not so much the day. Mid-to-late December has been a time for celebrations for millennia and for many different religions and groups.

[Ashapalan]

Yes
Yes

I dont believe it was the day that christ was born. But its still important as it gives one day in the year to mark the birth of christ.

[840quadra]

Yes,

It is an important holiday for us, just like Thanksgiving. Not because of the commercial aspect, though we do give presents.

It is more of a chance for all of us to get together for a few nights (large family) and enjoy good food, conversation, and stories. I live in the Northern US, so with winter it is nice to be inside with family!

I am going "big" this year on presents for my mom, but it isn't what you think. She has been wanting to listen to some of her older records for years, but hasn't been able to. I am buying her a new iPod nano, and I am working on digitizing her records (behind her back) to give to her loaded on her new iPod.

She loves Apple computers, and good music so I feel she is worth it ;)

[skunk]

I celebrate in the period around the winter solstice because it's the end of an old year and the beginning of a new. Just like people have for millennia. Of course, if I was in Australia, I'd be doing it in June. ;)

[crdean1]

Yes, it was not when Christ was born, so research shows...While I am a Christian, please don't think I don't want people to celebrate Christmas unless they believe like me.

While I wish all would come to know Christ as savior, he has definitely changed my life (so why wouldn't I want people to experience that), I love the fact that Christmas can be a time to bring families together, like many of you have said, whether you are a Christian or not.

Like iGary said, it has become a secular holiday as well...and people take time off of work, and have parties, etc.

I was just wondering if any of you that aren't Christians think about spiritual things (which we all do at some point, I believe) during Christmas.

[dcv]

yes and yes (though not by choice). it's a tradition really and we always celebrate it as a family.

[dubbz]

I'm not christian, but I celebrate it because of it's become a tradition. My parents are christian, and maybe I used to be once, too.

I never cared for the reasons behind christmas. When I was younger it was all about the presents. Now, I just see it as a nice time for the whole family to be together.

[Lyle]

yes and yes (though not by choice).You're a Christian, but not by choice? :confused:

Anyways. Yes, I celebrate Christmas and yes, I'm a Christian.

I am going "big" this year on presents for my mom, but it isn't what you think. She has been wanting to listen to some of her older records for years, but hasn't been able to. I am buying her a new iPod nano, and I am working on digitizing her records (behind her back) to give to her loaded on her new iPod.Very cool idea. I did something similar for my wife a few years ago, digitized some audio tapes of live music performances (i.e. tapes that she couldn't just go out and buy on CD anywhere). I think your Mom will really appreciate the effort you've put into her gift.

[jelloshotsrule]

yes, and yes

while my family is very religious (i'm the black sheep in that regard), we've always embraced the giving aspect of the holiday as well. but not before we've sang happy birthday to jesus! hah.

but seriously, it's a great time to be with family, eat good food, and for those that believe, celebrate an important occasion (not the specific day)...


jsw- just out of curiousity for a parent who isn't religious... i assume you don't mention the religious aspect of the holiday at all to your kids? which leads to the general parenting question of how do you deal with it when your kids ask about their friends who are talking about jesus's birthday, etc.? just curious.

word

[Blue Velvet]

I couldn't give a crap about the "meaning" of christmas, but I "celebrate" it because:

A) It's a few days public holiday ;)
B) Present giving/reveiving time :D
C) Booze and food :p



Exactly.

Another thing is that it's just a few days past the solstice which is far more worth celebrating than some crummy old religious festival. ;)

[jsw]

jsw- just out of curiousity for a parent who isn't religious... i assume you don't mention the religious aspect of the holiday at all to your kids? which leads to the general parenting question of how do you deal with it when your kids ask about their friends who are talking about jesus's birthday, etc.? just curious.
Well, I'm not religious, but my wife is, I used to be (a long time ago), and I don't have any issue with the kids being raised with an understanding of and participation in a religion. So... my nearly-5-year-old goes to church with her, and my infant will go at some point as well, and, occasionally, I go too just too be a part of the family. While I don't buy the organized religion "thing", I do think there's value in spirituality. I also think there's value in my kids seeing that their parents have different views on the subject, and it's OK for them to form their own beliefs as well. While I'm an atheist (or close to it), I have no problem with them being religious if they so choose. My problem is never with people being religious so much as it is with (a) people trying to shove their religion down your throat; and (b) people who ignore reason or reality and blindly choose actions or policies based solely upon religion. I'll teach my kids to think, but how they use that skill will be up to them.

[jelloshotsrule]

awesome. sounds exactly like the approach my girlfriend and i would take with our kids (she's not religious, and i have many issues with the catholic church and organized religion in general)... but we both see value in raising the kids with an open mind to religion/spirituality, and then letting them decide for themselves when the time comes....

not to drive things off topic too much.... but did you have a church wedding?

[jsw]

not to drive things off topic too much.... but did you have a church wedding?
Of course! ;)

I think that, if either of the people getting married or many of the guests (esp. the parents/immediate family) would prefer a church wedding, then, unless you have strong and sincere objections to it, it'll make some people important to you happy and shouldn't bother anyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, that whole atheism thing allows me to pretty much say whatever they expect me to in religious ceremonies without worrying about it. The important thing is the marriage. Where the wedding takes place isn't a big deal. The religious context of a church wedding isn't a big deal. The essence of what you say and agree to - which is, in essence, the same in religious and secular weddings - is far more important than the exact wording.

[mpw]

...I think that, if either of the people getting married... ...would prefer a church wedding, then, unless you have strong and sincere objections to it, it'll make some people important to you happy and shouldn't bother anyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, that whole atheism thing allows me to pretty much say whatever they expect me to in religious ceremonies without worrying about it...
Same here. I know that religion, as 99% of people I’m in contact with who claim to have a religion persuasion practice it, is crap but my wife (for reasons best known to her at the time and admitted by her later to be little to do with religion, yay I got a switcher) wanted a Church do.

I was up-front with the minister, Church of England, about my beliefs and they sat down and chatted to me for a while. They then decided that my basic beliefs weren’t out of line with what they understood their God to want even if I was coming from it from a different view-point and were happy to preside.

Interestingly they did say I’d need to go for an ‘interview’ with their boss (the Dean, not their God) to get the final OK and when I turned up he didn’t hesitate in OK’ing it, didn’t ask any pertinent or probing questions just said that we’d have to pay an extra £120! Suddenly I felt I understood Christianity a little more!!

[jelloshotsrule]

mpw- you're married? first lacero and then you... frightening......


jsw and mpw- yeah, i agree in general. my problem is just that my girlfriend has said she wants to get married outside (ideally on a beach) and can't see herself getting married in a church. that said, she knows it's important to me (at least to have some spiritual/church side). being catholic, there's the whole pre marriage counseling thing... and she knows about that. i think the main thing they want to know is if you have kids, whether they will be raised catholic, which i've already covered. i need to find out if you can have a catholic ceremony outside a church building. hmmmmm

[ChrisBrightwell]

If you do celebrate Christmas and are not a Christian, then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (the birth of the savior)? Because it was a celebration of life before the Christians commandeered it. For me, it's an opportunity to do nothing more than spend time with friends and family, reflect upon the year passed, and appreciate what I've got.

Christmas as "Jesus' Birthday" is a hack, anyway.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Jesus%27_birth_and_death#Date_of_Birth

[mpw]

mpw- you're married? first lacero and then you... frightening...

hmmm not sure how to take that?

You know what wives hate?

Being introduced as “My current wife.” or when people ask “Hey mpw, is this your daughter?” and I reply “Yes. This is my daughter with my first wife.” while she (my first, current and only wife, so far) is standing there.

[jsw]

... i need to find out if you can have a catholic ceremony outside a church building. hmmmmm
Maybe if you offer to pay an extra £120. ;)

I hope it all works out in a way you both like. FWIW, even though it's hard to appreciate while in the midst of planning a wedding (esp., often, for the woman), the wedding - no matter where it takes place or what the details happen to be - only lasts an hour or so at the most. You'll be so stressed (and/or distracted by) about a million things that you'll barely remember it. It's the marriage part that matters. Well, that and an open bar at the reception.

[jelloshotsrule]

Maybe if you offer to pay an extra £120. ;)

Well, that and an open bar at the reception.

first - i have to pay in pounds??? damn! hah

second - so i take that to mean that my hope to have an alcohol free wedding is a BAD idea? :)

yeah, i know it'll all work out. i'm just constantly seeking various possibilities and seeing what other people have done.

mpw- no offense ;) was just making a joke about the general content of many of your posts.... thanks for the tips on wives. gold

[jsw]

second - so i take that to mean that my hope to have an alcohol free wedding is a BAD idea? :)
No, not at all! Alcohol free weddings are a great idea. You should always wait until the reception before letting people get drunk. ;)

[jelloshotsrule]

hahaha. punkass

[Don't panic]

hmmm not sure how to take that?

You know what wives hate?

Being introduced as “My current wife.” or when people ask “Hey mpw, is this your daughter?” and I reply “Yes. This is my daughter with my first wife.” while she (my first, current and only wife, so far) is standing there.

talk about self-fulfilling prophecies. If i ever were to introduce my wife as "my first wife" I am pretty sure I would be shortly be looking for a second one :D

[jsw]

talk about self-fulfilling prophecies. If i ever were to introduce my wife as "my first wife" I am pretty sure I would be shortly be looking for a second one :D
Not me... I'd be crawling around on the floor trying to figure out where my glasses ended up after I got slapped. ;)

[mactastic]

We always have a big Solstice party at our house, then generally go see the families on Xmas to celebrate with them.
If you do celebrate Christmas and are not a Christian, then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (the birth of the savior)?
If you go to a friends Bar/Bat Mitzvah and are not Jewish then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (Judaism)?

Because you can celebrate things with family/friends that are important to them even if you don't necessarily agree with or subscribe to their beliefs?
Can't you? :confused:

[zimv20]

crdean1, what do you do on halloween?

[takao]

yeah we celebrate and for the why: tradition .. catholic and everything ... it's still the big family meet up time of the year (with our uncles etc.) and days of being together

luckily our house always has been "santa claus" free and our family always sticked to the "Christkind" (and we still celebrate christmas in the evening of the 24th)

[yellow]

What is historically my least favorite task on Christmas night? Getting dragged to church. Bleh.

[pseudobrit]

crdean1, what do you do on halloween?

I contemplate All Souls' Day.

[takao]

crdean1, what do you do on halloween?

well i don't celebrate that either ;) and i will still refuse to go to halloween parties.. in the last 5-7 they are becoming more and more popular over here simply because through US TV shows/series/movies

some even started to do this stupid trick&treat thing over here .. just minus the costumes ... my mother even called the police after some kids thrown eggs on the white wall of our house ... she was ****** pissed about that
(and yes the police even sent a car)

i wonder how long it will take untill some people are celebrating thanksgiving :rolleyes:

edit: and All Soul's Day is hardly a big day for parties ;)
i mean going to the graves of family relatives in the afternoon and in the evening switch to party ? hardly mourning the dead isn't it ?

[zelmo]

Well, I'm not religious, but my wife is, I used to be (a long time ago), and I don't have any issue with the kids being raised with an understanding of and participation in a religion. So... my nearly-5-year-old goes to church with her, and my infant will go at some point as well, and, occasionally, I go too just too be a part of the family. While I don't buy the organized religion "thing", I do think there's value in spirituality. I also think there's value in my kids seeing that their parents have different views on the subject, and it's OK for them to form their own beliefs as well. While I'm an atheist (or close to it), I have no problem with them being religious if they so choose. My problem is never with people being religious so much as it is with (a) people trying to shove their religion down your throat; and (b) people who ignore reason or reality and blindly choose actions or policies based solely upon religion. I'll teach my kids to think, but how they use that skill will be up to them.

Beautifully said, jsw, and pretty spot on for where my wife and I are. She is a Christian, and getting more and more involved with church these days. I am, as she calls me, an "unbeliever" (No, my real name is not Thomas Covenant ;) ). She is starting to homeschool our son, and he goes to preschool groups at church on Sundays during her services. I have no problem with him being exposed to Christian beliefs, but I will not suggest to him that I share them. He will learn how to make up his own mind.

As for Christmas, yes we celebrate, and did so even before my wife was saved. It is a time to get together with familiy and friends, getting in touch with why we spend the other 364 days of the year doing all this crazy rat race stuff. Good food, good company, good seeing the kiddies all excited about Santa...good times, and makes more good memories.

[tristan]

My family has a great tradition. Every year, instead of exchanging presents, each of us picks a favorite charity or two, and the rest of the family donates to it on their behalf. Each charity ends up with a few hundred dollars. (Each person gives about $40 per charity, 6 charities.)

But to answer the question:

1. YES, we celebrate Christmas.
2. NO, we are not Christian, we are secular humanists and pagans.

We celebrate it because it's a holiday, a nice opportunity to get together with family, and a chance to do something for the less fortunate. Anyway, it's originally a pagan holiday, as was previously mentioned. Winter solstice and all that.

[crdean1]

We always have a big Solstice party at our house, then generally go see the families on Xmas to celebrate with them.

If you go to a friends Bar/Bat Mitzvah and are not Jewish then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (Judaism)?

Because you can celebrate things with family/friends that are important to them even if you don't necessarily agree with or subscribe to their beliefs?
Can't you? :confused:

Yes. I would think it good to support the person involved, absolutely.

[crdean1]

crdean1, what do you do on halloween?

Pass out candy to the kids that come to my door usually.

[pseudobrit]

Pass out candy to the kids that come to my door usually.

A pagan tradition. It used to involve human sacrifice.

[crdean1]

I do sacrifice the occasional human. I already have a particular in-law picked out for next month. :D

Edit: Smiley face, just to be sure...

[mpw]

A pagan tradition. It used to involve human sacrifice.
Jelly babies with their tiny jelly hearts removed.

[LethalWolfe]

I'm disappointed. There isn't nearly enough irrational arguing in this thread.


Lethal

[zimv20]

Jelly babies with their tiny jelly hearts removed.
:-)

[dcv]

You're a Christian, but not by choice? :confused:

as in... my parents made the choice for me! was brought up as a Catholic though i don't practise it myself

[ham_man]

I celebrate Christmas because I am a Christian and in recognition of the birth of Jesus Christ...

Christmas is not a birthday party for Christ or just a "get together for family" for the hell of it. It is a day of joy for the birth of the Savior that should be taken seriously...

[latergator116]

I don't celebrate Christamas, but I do enjoy the period building up to Christamas and the whole "holiday spirit" feeling.

[Blue Velvet]

Christmas is not ... just a "get together for family" for the hell of it.

Well, it is exactly just that. For millions of people around the world who couldn't care less about Christ.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

[skunk]

Christmas is not a birthday party for Christ or just a "get together for family" for the hell of it. It is a day of joy for the birth of the Savior that should be taken seriously...To each his own.

[zelmo]

I'm disappointed. There isn't nearly enough irrational arguing in this thread.


Lethal

Frankly, I think you look slimmer in the pink pumps. They make your calves look quite muscular.

Well, I got you halfway... ;)

[greatdevourer]

as in... my parents made the choice for me! was brought up as a Catholic though i don't practise it myself You aren't Christian... :rolleyes:

The real question should be "do you celebrate Easter?", as that's the real niggler. It has no connection to anything else. It follows the real date (Sunday after the end of Passover). And it's the most important date in the Christian calender. So, do you celebrate Easter and are you a Christian?

[mpw]

Well, it is exactly just that. For millions of people around the world who couldn't care less about Christ.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
Agree, but not sorry about it.

[skunk]

You aren't Christian... :rolleyes:

The real question should be "do you celebrate Easter?", as that's the real niggler. It has no connection to anything else. It follows the real date (Sunday after the end of Passover). And it's the most important date in the Christian calender. So, do you celebrate Easter and are you a Christian?
According to Bede (died in 735 CE), writing in De Tempore Ratione ("On the Reckoning of Time"), Ch. xv, "The English months", the word is derived from Eostre, an Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring, to whom the month answering to our April, and called Eostur-monath, was dedicated;
"Eosturmonath has a name which is now translated "Paschal month", and which was once called after a goddess of theirs named Eostre, in whose honour feasts were celebrated in that month. Now they designate that Paschal season by her name, calling the joys of the new rite by the time-honoured name of the old observance."
What is secure in Bede's passage is that the lunar month around the month of April in the Julian calendar was called the Eostre-monath. And as the Christian tradition of Easter, which has also fallen in April, arrived in some Germanic-speaking regions, the people named the then-unnamed Christian day after the festival, that is, in English as Easter, and in German as Ostern. It is alleged that remnants of Eostre's characteristics can also be found in the Easter Bunny celebrations, based on Jakob Grimm's research into connections between the 'Ostern Hare' and the Germanic Ostara, which he believed to be another name for the same goddess.Not what Wikipedia says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre

[greatdevourer]

[/indent]Not what Wikipedia says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre I'm not sure which part of my thing you're rejecting, but it does follow Passover, and it took it's name because it was in that month by a coincidence. Beleive it or not, Jesus ressurection wasn't timed just so it could co-incide with the Roman April so that we could call it Easter... :rolleyes:

[Don't panic]

[/indent]Not what Wikipedia says.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eostre

you live, you learn.
how about them chocolate eggs?

[skunk]

I'm not sure which part of my thing you're rejecting, but it does follow Passover, and it took it's name because it was in that month by a coincidence. Beleive it or not, Jesus ressurection wasn't timed just so it could co-incide with the Roman April so that we could call it Easter... :rolleyes:The date's not commonly agreed even among Christians. Ask any Orthodox Christian.

[skunk]

you live, you learn.
how about them chocolate eggs?
Decorated eggs are much older than Easter, and both eggs and rabbits are age-old fertility symbols. The Passover Seder service uses a hard-cooked egg flavored with salt water as a symbol both of new life and the Temple service in Jerusalem. The Jewish tradition may have come from earlier Roman Spring feasts.
Easter egg origin stories abound — one has an emperor claiming that the Resurrection was as likely as eggs turning red (see Mary Magdalene); more prosaically the Easter egg tradition may have celebrated the end of the privations of Lent. In the West, eggs were seen as "meat", which would have been forbidden during Lent. Likewise, in Eastern Christianity, both meat and dairy were prohibited during the fast, and eggs were seen as "dairy" (a foodstuff that could be taken from an animal without shedding its blood). One would have been forced to hard boil the eggs that the chickens produced so as not to waste food, and for this reason the Spanish dish hornazo (traditionally eaten in and around Easter) contains hard-boiled eggs as a primary ingredient.
Easter eggs are a widely popular symbol of new life in Poland and other Slavic countries' folk traditions. A batik-like decorating process known as pisanka produces intricate, brilliantly-colored eggs. The celebrated Fabergé workshops created exquisite jewelled Easter eggs for the Russian Imperial Court.Courtesy of your favourite encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg

[Don't panic]

I'm not sure which part of my thing you're rejecting, but it does follow Passover, and it took it's name because it was in that month by a coincidence. Beleive it or not, Jesus ressurection wasn't timed just so it could co-incide with the Roman April so that we could call it Easter... :rolleyes:

apart from the fact that, to the majority of the people in the world, jesus' resurrection never happened, the point is that people of all cultures always felt the need to celebrate in certain times of the year.
And up and coming cultures typically embraced and exploited pre-existing festivities to drum up support for their thing, and this is especially true of early christianity, which embraced (and then modified) all sorts of pagan rituals.
The current rationale behind it in the western world is theoretically based on christianity, but most people would equally happily celebrating them in their older form, if that's what was given to them.

edit: that said, I do like the family gathering at the holydays, especially the christmas traditions. Of them, nothing beats decorating the tree and playing the santa charade with the kids.

[Don't panic]

[/indent]Courtesy of your favourite encyclopedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_egg

cool.
one I saw a huge pysanka in the middle of nowere in canada.
very weird.

[zimv20]

Christmas is not a birthday party for Christ or just a "get together for family" for the hell of it. It is a day of joy for the birth of the Savior that should be taken seriously...
and what do you do on halloween?

[homerjward]

yes
no
presents

[ham_man]

and what do you do on halloween?
Nothing. Why do you ask? I know that there is an All Saints Day on November 1st or 2nd, but I do not have any really close family members to pay respects too...

[skunk]

Nothing. Why do you ask? I know that there is an All Saints Day on November 1st or 2nd, but I do not have any really close family members to pay respects too...So you acknowledge that it's the Day of the Ancestors, latterly transmuted into the "Saints"?

[zimv20]

Nothing.
no trick or treaters? no decorations? when you were a kid, did you dress up and go get candy? do you have kids now who dress up?

[leekohler]

Some people in recent threads said that they have started to see ads for Christmas already....which made me think of this question.

1. Do you celebrate Christmas?

2. Are you a Christian?

If you do celebrate Christmas and are not a Christian, then why do you celebrate something you don't believe in (the birth of the savior)?

Thought this might be a good topic.

Alright everyone, let it fly.

1. No.
2. No.

However I do send gifts to my family. I don't see any reason to make it a divisive issue, they're all Christian.

[yg17]

1. No
2. No


As a former Jew, now atheist, and working in retail, Xmas is nothing but a huge inconvienence for me

[ham_man]

So you acknowledge that it's the Day of the Ancestors, latterly transmuted into the "Saints"?
Yes I do acknowledge it is a day to respect your ancestors. What is your point?

no trick or treaters? no decorations? when you were a kid, did you dress up and go get candy? do you have kids now who dress up?
No. No. No. No.

[aswitcher]

I celebrate Christmas because I am a Christian and in recognition of the birth of Jesus Christ...

Christmas is not a birthday party for Christ or just a "get together for family" for the hell of it. It is a day of joy for the birth of the Savior that should be taken seriously...

:) Similiar outlook, although I think celebrating family and ones love for each other is also an important part of Christmas as well.

[w_parietti22]

No. No. No. No.

how depressing!!!

yes and yes. I love xmas!

[zimv20]

No. No. No. No.
that's extraordinary. did your parents not allow you to celebrate halloween in any way?

[dornoforpyros]

yes but only for my parents, if it were up to me I'd go to work that day (i'm not kidding), I really hate christmas, it's cliche' to say this but modern christmas (atleast in North America) is nothing more than an exersice in consumerism.
I'm an athiest so the religios meaning is non-exsistant to me.

[solvs]

Christmas is not a birthday party for Christ or just a "get together for family" for the hell of it. It is a day of joy for the birth of the Savior that should be taken seriously...
Um... I think you're missing the point of Christmas. It was supposed to be a way to sort of compromise with pagans and those of other faiths to celebrate the life of a man the followers of Christ thought was great. It's supposed to be a celebration. And inclusive. The way you're making it seem is exclusionary, which pretty much completely missing the point.

Though I do think it has become somewhat more commercial every year... but then again, don't they say that every year?

[stubeeef]

Can't wait to go around wishing everyone a Merry Christmas!

I am a Christian.
I celebrate Christmas.
I celebrate the birth of the son of God, Jesus Christ. :)

[skunk]

Can't wait to go around wishing everyone a Merry Christmas!So at year's end, when most people, of most religions and none, are having some sort of celebration, you look forward to rejoicing in the arrogation and appropriation of the season to your own particular religion, even though we all know the date has nothing whatever to do with anybody's birthday? Tsk, tsk!

[yellow]

I am a Patriots fan.
I celebrate when the Patriots win.
I will celebrate this weekend when Carolina looses to the Pats.. again.

[jelloshotsrule]

as in... my parents made the choice for me! was brought up as a Catholic though i don't practise it myself

then i wouldn't consider you christian/catholic.

which isn't bad, just wouldn't call you as such.

though i wouldn't call those self proclaimed christians "christians" when their lives do not reflect the general love and compassions that christ taught... not very "christ like" really

[mactastic]

Funny that Jesus was born right around the Winter Solstice and died right around the Spring equinox... Hell of a coincidence. :p

[skunk]

Funny that Jesus was born right around the Winter Solstice and died right around the Spring equinox... Hell of a coincidence. :pHow lucky was that?

[greatdevourer]

The date's not commonly agreed even among Christians. Ask any Orthodox Christian. Erm... it follows Passover. That's why it moves around. The people who you really want to be annoying over this are Jews, seeing as Easter is the Sunday after their festival

[skunk]

Erm... it follows Passover. That's why it moves around. The people who you really want to be annoying over this are Jews, seeing as Easter is the Sunday after their festivalFYI:
http://www.smart.net/~mmontes/ec-cal.html
Easter Calculations

History

Prior to AD325, churches in different regions celebrated Easter on different dates, not always on Sundays. The Council of Nicea (AD 325) clarified this a bit by stating that Easter would be celebrated on Sundays. Still a number of methods were used until a method defined by Dionyisius Exiguus was adopted in about AD 532. This was not widely accepted until it was described and defended by the Venerable Bede in his De temporum ratione (AD 725). [Thanks to Jim Morrison (70451.2106@compuserve.com) for the previous four sentences.]
Aloisius Lilius (d. 1576) devised the system that would become the basis of the Gregorian Calendar, as well as the tables that would be used to determine the date of Easter. Christoph Clavius modified the tables slightly, and was one of the prime defenders of the Gregorian calendar. The tables used to determine the date of Easter (in the West) since AD 1583 are these modified tables of Clavius. All algorithms for calculating the date of Easter since then are based on these tables.

Easter is the Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon. The Paschal Full Moon may occur from March 21 through April 18, inclusive. Thus the date of Easter is from March 22 through April 25, inclusive. The date of the Paschal full moon is determined from tables, and it may differ from the date of the the actual full moon by up to two days. This definition, along with tables, etc. may be found in "The Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Ephemeris and American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac". This definition that uses tables instead of actual observations of the full moon is useful and necessary since the the full moon may occur on different (local, not UT) dates depending where you are in the world. If the date of Easter was based on local observations, then it would be possible for different parts of the world to celebrate Easter on different dates in the same year.

To further confuse the issue, many countries did not start using the Gregorian calendar in October 1582, so Easter in those countries was celebrated at times different than is listed here UNTIL they began using the Gregorian calendar. And some countries that switched to the Gregorian calendar used a different definition of Easter for some time (parts of Germany and Sweden used tables based on the observations of Tycho Brahe to determine Easter for many years after the Gregorian calendar was adopted in those locations). A reasonably comprehensive list of when nations started to use the Gregorian Calendar may be found in reference (1) and in the Calendar FAQ.

An interesting upshot of the algorithm is that the cycle of Easter dates (in the Gregorian Calendar) repeats every 5,700,000 years - and no sooner! (See the Calendar FAQ for why the period has this particular length.) Using the algorithms, I have calculated the distribution of the Gregorian Easter dates over various periods of time. You may view the frequency of the date of Easter over one complete 5,700,000 year cycle, or over the first complete 400 year Gregorian Calendar cycle, or over a more contemporary timespan of 1875 to 2124.Not quite that simple, eh?

[ham_man]

The date's not commonly agreed even among Christians. Ask any Orthodox Christian.
Other than the fact that all the Gospels agree on the fact that it occured during Passover... :rolleyes:

Um... I think you're missing the point of Christmas. It was supposed to be a way to sort of compromise with pagans and those of other faiths to celebrate the life of a man the followers of Christ thought was great. It's supposed to be a celebration. And inclusive. The way you're making it seem is exclusionary, which pretty much completely missing the point.
I am not saying it is should not be inclusive to everyone. I just hate to see it be devalued as little more than a time for presents, and take offense at it.

that's extraordinary. did your parents not allow you to celebrate halloween in any way?
I live in The Boonies. Do the math.

Plus, the whole concept seemed a bit ludicrous to me, even when I was like 7.

[stubeeef]

So at year's end, when most people, of most religions and none, are having some sort of celebration, you look forward to rejoicing in the arrogation and appropriation of the season to your own particular religion, even though we all know the date has nothing whatever to do with anybody's birthday? Tsk, tsk!

Presidents day isn't on their birthdays, yet we honor them. Martin Luther Kings birthday is celebrated on different days, but you want to give me a hard time about my willingness to celebrate on a specific day?
Actually I should celebrate EVERYDAY!
I don't condone celebration of satan, vodoo, or evil religious holidays, but I am not telling others they can not. If they want to walk by me on a public street, and want to nicely say "happy Vodoo Day", I have no ill will for them or that.
If you don't want to hear "Merry Christmas" during Christmas season, wear some ear muffs.
I am allowed to express myself as are those that are pagan, witches, and the like.
But you are wrong when you say it is not about anybody's birthday. It is about Jesus Christ's birthday. It may not be on the actual day, but that is incindental, as are many holidays. It is more important to celebrate his birth, than worry over which of 365 days it was.
There are bigger issues in the world than Christmas, Hanukkah, Muslim, or other holidays. Especially if they are in Celebration of what is supposed to be good.

[zimv20]

I live in The Boonies. Do the math.

Plus, the whole concept seemed a bit ludicrous to me, even when I was like 7.
so you grew up cut off from civilization and were fed a steady diet of christian conservatism? yes, i now understand the math.

[skunk]

Actually I should celebrate EVERYDAY!Indeed you should.
I don't condone celebration of satan, vodoo, or evil religious holidays, but I am not telling others they can not. If they want to walk by me on a public street, and want to nicely say "happy Vodoo Day", I have no ill will for them or that.
If you don't want to hear "Merry Christmas" during Christmas season, wear some ear muffs.
I am allowed to express myself as are those that are pagan, witches, and the like.Hey, hang on a minute! Where did all this voodoo, paganism, wicca and satanism come from? That's not the only alternative.
But you are wrong when you say it is not about anybody's birthday. It is about Jesus Christ's birthday. It may not be on the actual day, but that is incindental, as are many holidays. It is more important to celebrate his birth, than worry over which of 365 days it was.You are of course entirely free to celebrate on whatever date takes your fancy. It was only that I thought I detected a slightly triumphalist tone in your earlier assertion which appeared to arrogate what is a universal seasonal celebration of the solar cycle to one particular faith group. It's a bit like the early Christians building their churches on the sacred sites of earlier belief-systems.

[ham_man]

so you grew up cut off from civilization and were fed a steady diet of christian conservatism? yes, i now understand the math.
I interact with civilization...;)

And what is wrong with Christian Conservatism and practicing my faith to the best of my abilities...?

[skunk]

And what is wrong with Christian Conservatism?Ooooh! Where do I start?

[ham_man]

Ooooh! Where do I start?
Damn. Thought I could get away with editing my post to better express myself. You guys are fast...:p

[pseudobrit]

Ooooh! Where do I start?

The name?

[Blue Velvet]

And what is wrong with Christian Conservatism?

Perhaps because it is an extremely localised, limited and ignorant view of the world and the diversity of all humanity that seems to ignore many of the supposed precepts that its based upon.

[pseudobrit]

Indeed you should.
Hey, hang on a minute! Where did all this voodoo, paganism, wicca and satanism come from? That's not the only alternative.

Of course it is.
You've got either the civilised Christians or the heathen dirt-worshippers.

[highres]

For me, my family and friends, Christmas is about getting together, sharing some good food and holiday cheer, relaxing with family and sharing with others. It is always fun to see my niece and nephew and family open their gifts on Christmas Day.

Christmas to me does not mean celebrating some long dead Jewish guy's birthdate and history which has been rewritten and misinterpreted a million times since then, and in whose name millions of people have been oppressed, enslaved and killed.

[skunk]

Perhaps because it is an extremely localised, limited and ignorant view of the world and the diversity of all humanity that seems to ignore many of the supposed precepts that its based upon.As ham_man has just professed himself to be one, this might be a teeny bit harsh without qualification....

[Blue Velvet]

As ham_man has just professed himself to be one, this might be a teeny bit harsh without qualification....

I did say perhaps... ;)

[skunk]

I did say perhaps... ;)Oh, that's all right, then.
:p

[ham_man]

Perhaps because it is an extremely localised, limited and ignorant view of the world and the diversity of all humanity that seems to ignore many of the supposed precepts that its based upon.
Conservative in itself means being core to the laws and teachings of a certain thing. Conservative Christianity is just one of the things that can fall under this. I don't take a real liberal interpretation of the Word of Christ. And your call that Christian conservatism is a limited and ignorant view of the world is just flat wrong. Being a Christian is not conforming to the world around you. It is conforming to the Word of God.

[pseudobrit]

Conservative in itself means being core to the laws and teachings of a certain thing. Conservative Christianity is just one of the things that can fall under this.

It would indeed, if it were:

a) conservative
b) Christian

I don't take a real liberal interpretation of the Word of Christ. And your call that Christian conservatism is a limited and ignorant view of the world is just flat wrong. Being a Christian is not conforming to the world around you. It is conforming to the Word of God.

Want a more literal view of the Gospel? Jesus was a pinko wuss-ass liberal. Get your head around that idea and tell me "Conservative Christianity" isn't conforming to the world around it.

[zimv20]

Jesus was a pinko wuss-ass liberal
and probably dark enough to be considered black in this country.

[pseudobrit]

and probably dark enough to be considered black in this country.

Or at least get himself on the no-fly list.

[skunk]

I don't take a real liberal interpretation of the Word of Christ.
...
Being a Christian is not conforming to the world around you. It is conforming to the Word of God.An eye for an eye, or turning the other cheek?

[Blue Velvet]

And your call that Christian conservatism is a limited and ignorant view of the world is just flat wrong.

How so? It's a sect practised by a fraction of your population. Much of the rest of the world are utterly amazed at the lunacy that comes from the mouths of your supposed religious leaders as they pocket millions and preach hate towards others.

Millions of others around the world also profess to hear 'the word of god' although it may not be your god. What the hell makes you think you're special out there in the boonies, huh?

I judge people by what they say and what they do. Christian conservatism at its most vocal is one of the most distorted, blinded, dangerous and ignorant beliefs I know of...

Inflexible, cold, spiteful, unaccomodating... its followers try to force a redundant template over the behaviour of others and most importantly, it ignores almost every advance in psychology, philosophy and the science of the last few centuries.

Why am I so angry? I have seen good friends ruined by Christianity, ripped away from their close friends and sucked into love-bombing insular groups that drain the very vitality from a person and that channel their essential goodness and the trust they have in their impulses towards berating and arrogantly assuming that they, only they, are the true bearers of the word of God.

I fondly remember being told that they were entrusted to bring God to Japan -- yes, we'll go to Shinto shrines and tell people to repent and change their ways. What hubris, what ignorance...

If Christ were here, he'd cry. Listen to yourself -- you're becoming like the Taliban.

[skunk]

How so? It's a sect practised by a fraction of your population. Much of the rest of the world are utterly amazed at the lunacy that comes from the mouths of your supposed religious leaders as they pocket millions and preach hate towards others.And for some strange reason, Americans actually seem to listen to these fruit-loops...

[zimv20]

And for some strange reason, Americans actually seem to listen to these fruit-loops...
nice graph. link?

[skunk]

nice graph. link?Sorry.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/4225596.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/world_who_runs_your_world0/html/1.stm
This one's good, too: shows that Americans (and Africans) listen more to their religious fruit-loops than to their families.

[~loserman~]

And for some strange reason, Americans actually seem to listen to these fruit-loops...

The overall graph shows a trend that American's are more trusting of leaders whether religious or politicians than the rest of the world.

[skunk]

The overall graph shows a trend that American's are more trusting of leaders whether religious or politicians than the rest of the world.What I want to know is why?

[zimv20]

What I want to know is why?
'cuz we're so friggin' scared, that's why. we need john wayne and/or jesus to come save us!

[ham_man]

It would indeed, if it were:

a) conservative
b) Christian
Okay. Let's start from scratch.

Conservative - one who believes the basic or fundamental doctrines of the Bible

Christian - the name given (by others) to the followers of Jesus Christ

As far as I know, I believe in the basic doctrines of the Bible and am a follower of Jesus Christ. I try my best to follow His Word and use His Word to define how I live my life. I find it offensive when people degrade the aspects of my religion and what it stands for.

How so? It's a sect practised by a fraction of your population. Much of the rest of the world are utterly amazed at the lunacy that comes from the mouths of your supposed religious leaders as they pocket millions and preach hate towards others.

Millions of others around the world also profess to hear 'the word of god' although it may not be your god. What the hell makes you think you're special out there in the boonies, huh?

I judge people by what they say and what they do. Christian conservatism at its most vocal is one of the most distorted, blinded, dangerous and ignorant beliefs I know of...

Inflexible, cold, spiteful, unaccomodating... its followers try to force a redundant template over the behaviour of others and most importantly, it ignores almost every advance in psychology, philosophy and the science of the last few centuries.

Why am I so angry? I have seen good friends ruined by Christianity, ripped away from their close friends and sucked into love-bombing insular groups that drain the very vitality from a person and that channel their essential goodness and the trust they have in their impulses towards berating and arrogantly assuming that they, only they, are the true bearers of the word of God.

I fondly remember being told that they were entrusted to bring God to Japan -- yes, we'll go to Shinto shrines and tell people to repent and change their ways. What hubris, what ignorance...

If Christ were here, he'd cry. Listen to yourself -- you're becoming like the Taliban.
Preach hate? Since when do "we" preach hate? I cannot speak for any so called Christians but will admit that some of the things done in the name of God are horrible. I have never demeaned another religion under any circumstances. I believe what I believe, and that is what matters to me. "Distorted, blinded, dangerous, and ignorant beliefs"? Come to my Church and tell me that a group of people who welcome every regardless of age, race, gender, sexual orientation or any other factor is "Distorted, blinded, dangerous, and ignorant".

"it ignores almost every advance in psychology, philosophy and the science of the last few centuries." ********. There is a difference between changing the word of God and accepting advancements. We use microphones, gas stoves, cars, cameras, televisions, radios, electric organs, and a whole lot of other stuff.

Blue Velvet, I find hard to believe that the"Queen of Acceptance" would decry any group. I thought you believed that it was anyone's right to do whatever the hell they want? Or is it just with a group that you think is in the right...? I think that your view of Christianity is a far fetched one of the one that truly exists. All of the Christians I know are more accepting of people than most...

[skunk]

Okay. Let's start from scratch.

Conservative - one who believes the basic or fundamental doctrines of the BibleHuh? Where did that come from? Dictionary link, please.

As far as I know, I believe in the basic doctrines of the Bible and am a follower of Jesus Christ. I try my best to follow His Word and use His Word to define how I live my life.How could you possibly support a war-mongering President, then?
I find it offensive when people degrade the aspects of my religion and what it stands for.Isn't that meant to be part of the fun of being a Christian?

Preach hate? Since when do "we" preach hate? I cannot speak for any so called Christians but will admit that some of the things done in the name of God are horrible. I have never demeaned another religion under any circumstances. I believe what I believe, and that is what matters to me.Do you not believe that followers of other religions are going straight to hell?

Blue Velvet, I find hard to believe that the"Queen of Acceptance" would decry any group.Damn, I must have missed the Coronation.

[pseudobrit]

Okay. Let's start from scratch.

Conservative - one who believes the basic or fundamental doctrines of the Bible

Christian - the name given (by others) to the followers of Jesus Christ

And the movement classified as "conservative Christian" is radical and anti-Christian.

They spread hate, greed and violence and encourage anti-Christian behaviour in America through their liberal interpretation of the Bible.

A true Christan cannot support the death penalty or war. A true Christian would advocate universal health care and welfare. Do you?

[pseudobrit]

If you want a truly conservative interpretation of the Bible, read the Catechism. There's 2000 years of perspective in there.

All this new-age stuff is liberal, whether you realise it or not, and has been invented out of thin air in the past few decades to further a political goal.

[ham_man]

And the movement classified as "conservative Christian" is radical and anti-Christian.

They spread hate, greed and violence and encourage anti-Christian behaviour in America through their liberal interpretation of the Bible.

A true Christan cannot support the death penalty or war. A true Christian would advocate universal health care and welfare. Do you?
Well then I guess I am not part of the "conservative Christian" movement as you define it...

A true Christan cannot support the death penalty or war. A true Christian would advocate universal health care and welfare. Do you?
I would advocate war if and only if it were to end the oppression of a society. I am not to big on the death penalty, though I do think it more humane to end someone's life then keeping them alive to rot away in a prison cell.

And I do believe in universal health care and welfare, just not executed by the government. Monopolies do not foster innovation.

[Blue Velvet]

Queen of Acceptance? Say what? :confused:

I'm gonna sit this out now... there are plenty of people on this board who would vehemently disagree with most of what I have to say about many things. Yet we can still get along and have some banter and a few laughs along the way as well.

Let's just leave it at that because I'm not as measured and as thoughtful as many of the regulars in the political forum and may end up impulsively saying something I may regret, OK?

[skunk]

Let's just leave it at that because I'm not as measured and as thoughtful as many of the regulars in the political forum and may end up impulsively saying something I may regret, OK?You're no fun.






:rolleyes:

[ham_man]

Queen of Acceptance? Say what? :confused:
Yea, I was just pissed at what you said and remember you as being really accepting of everybody except for Christians, or so it seems. No hard feelings...? :o

[Don't panic]

This one's good, too: shows that Americans (and Africans) listen more to their religious fruit-loops than to their families.
no it doesn't.
it shows that americans listen less to family and more to leaders than people elsewhere, but they still listen more to family than to religious leaders by over 2:1

edit: in case you where wondering, the missing 30% listens to 'voices' :D

[Blue Velvet]

No hard feelings...? :o

Of course not. :)

I just get cranky sometimes... well, often.

[zimv20]

may end up impulsively saying something I may regret, OK?
i, for one, was enjoying it.

[pseudobrit]

And I do believe in universal health care and welfare, just not executed by the government. Monopolies do not foster innovation.

And businesses do not foster altrusim.

[solvs]

I am not saying it is should not be inclusive to everyone. I just hate to see it be devalued as little more than a time for presents, and take offense at it.
Though I do think it has become somewhat more commercial every year...
I agree, but I still think you're missing the point of Christmas. Can't say I blame you I guess. Just the way you were taught. I would suggest you read more about it, it's quite enlightening, and I think Jesus would have been pleased with the idea. Just maybe not the execution. ;)

If Christ were here, he'd cry.
We're not all that bad. Some of us actually follow the teachings of Christ. Some just hide behind the Bible to justify their hatred, as some do with the Koran, or any religion for that matter. Except Taoism perhaps, but that's more of a philosophy than a religion. It is truly sad that some religions have to bash others and decry them as evil. All I would ask is that you do not stoop to their level Blue.

Edit: Not that I consider Hammy one of those we decry, but some of those he supports fall into that catagory.

[Xtremehkr]

I do, but not a celebration of Christs birthday.

It is one of those times of the year when I can get together with all of the people I value and share with. Due to the tendency for the economy to allow time off across the board, it is a good opportunity for one of those occasions. My favorite times of the year are when I can get together with all of the people I am close to and do stuff with. The religious implications come into play for some of those people, but mostly it is a time to get together and celebrate. That is what I value.

[ham_man]

I agree, but I still think you're missing the point of Christmas.
Which is...?

[solvs]

Which is...?
Presents.

[pseudobrit]

Presents.

Layaway.

[aswitcher]

Presents.

I saw them putting up Christmas trees and decorations in Myers today...3 months before Christmas. Looks like another desperate retail years end.

[mactastic]

Presents.
Is that you Eric Cartman?
:p

[xsedrinam]

Why has Apple steered away from "Xmas"? Too sacred, or scared? Don't mess with "Xmas" kinda thing?

[solvs]

Is that you Eric Cartman?
Well, my name is Erik. ;) And here I was worried no one would get that. For the record, I was kidding, just in case anyone wants to get offended.

It's actually about compromise and togetherness, and has less to do with celebrating Christianity and Christ than about bringing people into the fold. See, Christians wanted to get people to understand that Jesus was a good guy, and their religion had a lot to offer. If they went around being forceful and offended by everything, they wouldn't have gotten far. So they co-opted the holidays of other religions and customs, and created a day to celebrate Jesus' life that coincided with a day everyone was already celebrating. Well... they meant well. So you see, it has very little to do with Jesus himself, and more to do with showing other religions that you are good people by celebrating with family and friends and giving them things. So in a way, it is a party where you give people presents, but yeah, the meaning behind it is pretty cool. I'm probably not explaining this well, so I think I'll let Wiki do it for me:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Check out the links at the bottom. Some are better than others.

[mpw]

Why has Apple steered away from "Xmas"? Too sacred, or scared? Don't mess with "Xmas" kinda thing?
You don't really want to know, 'cause....you can't handle the truth!

[mactastic]

Well, my name is Erik. ;) And here I was worried no one would get that. For the record, I was kidding, just in case anyone wants to get offended.
Just don't break out in nasally versions of Christmas songs...
;)

[xsedrinam]

You don't really want to know, 'cause....you can't handle the truth!
Glad you noticed. :cool:
"O Come Let Us Ignore Him...."

[mpw]

Glad you noticed. :cool:
...
Took a while but it was bugging me, I knew I knew it but couldn't get it at first 'cause I thought it was Mel Gibson!?