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RSL
Dec 13, 2012, 03:54 AM
Is it time for OS X to fork out into Pro and Consumer versions?

I think so. Since Apple won't give up dumbing down OS X to satisfy new iOS converts, shouldn't it offer an alternative for long time Mac users who value stable and productive working environment that OS X was up until Lion? I don't want to have to tweak OS X to make it work for me (not being an IT guy I probably can't!). And by Pro I don't mean for IT professionals, I mean a twitter-free/gatekeeper-free/crapware-free simple productivity OS. Basically SL with security updates, new drivers, etc. I'm too attached to Mac (+25 years) to move to another platform.

I don't care how much it costs, just give me the best.



charlieegan3
Dec 13, 2012, 04:00 AM
While I understand your desire this isn't going to happen, and certainly not in the form of pro and consumer versions (too like windows).

I've learnt just to ignore everything - the only thing I really hate is the Mac App Store, it's just so bad I hate that so much. I'm fine with everything else as it can just be turned off/ignored.

RSL
Dec 13, 2012, 04:03 AM
While I understand your desire this isn't going to happen, and certainly not in the form of pro and consumer versions (too like windows).

Yeah, I agree, but I can still dream...

charlieegan3
Dec 13, 2012, 04:24 AM
Yeah, I agree, but I can still dream...

I have a dream...

negativzero
Dec 13, 2012, 04:42 AM
It is not necessary to have a "pro" version. If you are already a pro user, you would know that there is already terminal to pimp out your OS as much as you like.

vmachiel
Dec 13, 2012, 04:49 AM
Yeah, terminal is awesome, they better keep that in there forever

RSL
Dec 13, 2012, 05:55 AM
It is not necessary to have a "pro" version. If you are already a pro user, you would know that there is already terminal to pimp out your OS as much as you like.

Read the post. Pro stands for productivity not IT expert.

charlieegan3
Dec 13, 2012, 05:59 AM
Read the post. Pro stands for productivity not IT expert.

While you did say that in your OP most, myself included, would associate pro with professional.

I like the idea, but they couldn't call it that because of the ties with windows (xp professional, office professional...)

That said i'm using a macbook pro...

MisterMe
Dec 13, 2012, 07:33 AM
Is it time for OS X to fork out into Pro and Consumer versions?

...Out of the box, OSX Mountain Lion is Certified UNIX 03. UNIX is the most professional of professional operating systems. On virtually any Mac, you have the option of running virtually any professional OS X application. You have several options to bring the world of traditional Unix and Linux applications to your Mac. MacPorts, Fink, or the Terminal can be used to install virtually any Unix/Linux application. Install XFree86 along with your favorite windows manager and the world of Unix/Linux runs right along side your tradition OS X applications, professional or amateur.

Small White Car
Dec 13, 2012, 08:49 AM
I mean a twitter-free/gatekeeper-free/crapware-free simple productivity OS.

Don't sign in to Twitter. Turn off Gatekeeper. Erase any apps you don't want.

In order for this thread to make any sense you're going to have to list something you want that you can't get in Mountain Lion. So far you haven't done that.


I don't want to have to tweak OS X to make it work for me

Then I'm really confused about what you want because a 'pro' version would surely require more tweaking. Aperture definitely has a lot more settings than iPhoto does. Surely a 'more pro' OS would be similar.

Partron22
Dec 13, 2012, 11:47 AM
I'm too attached to Mac (+25 years) to move to another platform.Traded in my Apple III for a Macintosh, and Ubuntu is looking better with each OS release since Snow Leopard. Naturally, multi- monitor support sucks on Ubuntu too. OS's in general seem to be going thru an excessively cell phriendly phase. Perhaps that'll change in a decade.

RSL
Dec 14, 2012, 12:14 AM
Then I'm really confused about what you want because a 'pro' version would surely require more tweaking. Aperture definitely has a lot more settings than iPhoto does. Surely a 'more pro' OS would be similar.

If I wanted to do terminal tweaking then I would go for linux. That's precisely the reason why I use a Mac. I'm not a photographer so I don't know what you're talking about.

People act like the terminal is the soul of Mac. Long time Mac users know better than that. No terminal in System 6 AFAIK

The point of Mac is that it's intuitive and it just works. No tweaking required. No command line unix. In Lion/ML a lot of tweaking is required to get rid of nuisances/things that don't work. That's not the Mac way. In the old days one had DOS or whatever for tweakers. People who wanted to get things done (not IT) got it done on a Mac.

Remember the Mac philosophy: the crossroad between science and liberal arts.

Just get rid of the bloatware and give me a lean OS X. Give me exposé and spaces that works, not that mission control crap, it's killing productivity. Stop notifying me about ********. Stop integrating stuff like facebook into Mac. Mac is bigger than that. I love iOS for that kind of stuff, but not on the Mac. Give me mail that works. Let me put the apps I want on my computer. Finally give me a rock solid OS, friendly like the Mac I know.

Eithanius
Dec 14, 2012, 12:22 AM
If I wanted to do terminal tweaking then I would go for linux. That's precisely the reason why I use a Mac. I'm not a photographer so I don't know what you're talking about.

People act like the terminal is the soul of Mac. Long time Mac users know better than that. No terminal in System 6 AFAIK

The point of Mac is that it's intuitive and it just works. No tweaking required. No command line unix. In Lion/ML a lot of tweaking is required to get rid of nuisances/things that don't work. That's not the Mac way. In the old days one had DOS or whatever for tweakers. People who wanted to get things done (not IT) got it done on a Mac.

Remember the Mac philosophy: the crossroad between science and liberal arts.

Just get rid of the bloatware and give me a lean OS X. Give me exposé and spaces that works, not that mission control crap, it's killing productivity. Stop notifying me about ********. Stop integrating stuff like facebook into Mac. Mac is bigger than that. I love iOS for that kind of stuff, but not on the Mac. Give me mail that works. Let me put the apps I want on my computer. Finally give me a rock solid OS, friendly like the Mac I know.

You know, once in a while we need to bombard these statements such as yours at tcook@apple.com.... Or whatever big shots with a @apple.com addresses we could find... :D:D

Comeagain?
Dec 14, 2012, 12:38 AM
If I wanted to do terminal tweaking then I would go for linux. That's precisely the reason why I use a Mac. I'm not a photographer so I don't know what you're talking about.
Aperture and iPhoto. Photo management tools, one comes with a Mac, one costs $80. One has basic options, one has tons of options. Guess which requires tweaking... Aperture (Pro).


People act like the terminal is the soul of Mac. Long time Mac users know better than that. No terminal in System 6 AFAIK

I'd say it's not the soul of the Mac, but it's certainly the heart of the "power" users who work to make OS X work they way they do.


The point of Mac is that it's intuitive and it just works. No tweaking required. No command line unix. In Lion/ML a lot of tweaking is required to get rid of nuisances/things that don't work. That's not the Mac way. In the old days one had DOS or whatever for tweakers. People who wanted to get things done (not IT) got it done on a Mac.

IT ≠ Pro

And it does work. I use 10.8 with almost no tweaking all day productively. It can "just work". Although that way does change sometimes.


Just get rid of the bloatware and give me a lean OS X. Give me exposé and spaces that works, not that mission control crap, it's killing productivity. Stop notifying me about ********. Stop integrating stuff like facebook into Mac. Mac is bigger than that. I love iOS for that kind of stuff, but not on the Mac. Give me mail that works. Let me put the apps I want on my computer. Finally give me a rock solid OS, friendly like the Mac I know.

You are more then welcome to use Snow Leopard. I also do this regularly. It sounds like a lame answer at first, but it is still valid.

Or, you could:
• Change the settings to use the old Exposé which is still available.
• Turn off Notifications.
• Don't sign in to Facebook/Twitter
• Setting Mail to "Use Classic Layout"
• Disable Gatekeeper. Turn it off, and it won't bother you ever again.

Although at this point there aren't many benefits to using Lion or Mountain Lion over Snow Leopard.

RSL
Dec 14, 2012, 01:02 AM
You are more then welcome to use Snow Leopard.

Guess what? :D

throttlemeister
Dec 16, 2012, 02:35 PM
Why's everybody so hung up on SL? When I bought my first apple, it came preinstalled with Leopard (10.5.6).

When SL came along, this place was filled with complaints on how crap it was and people going back to Leopard.

When Lion came along, this place was filled with complaints on how crap it was and people going back to SL.

When ML came along, this place was filled with complaints on how crap it was and people going back to Lion.

I mean, it's history repeating itself with every major release.

SL leopard wasn't the cat's meow. If I look back at my benchmark results over all releases on the same laptop, Leopard was the fastest of the bunch. As far as stability, none of the cats so far have given me any real problems.

But despite all this, each new release from Apple is still better, more polished and more refined than the previous versions imo.

skaertus
Dec 16, 2012, 02:53 PM
Is it time for OS X to fork out into Pro and Consumer versions?

I think so. Since Apple won't give up dumbing down OS X to satisfy new iOS converts, shouldn't it offer an alternative for long time Mac users who value stable and productive working environment that OS X was up until Lion? I don't want to have to tweak OS X to make it work for me (not being an IT guy I probably can't!). And by Pro I don't mean for IT professionals, I mean a twitter-free/gatekeeper-free/crapware-free simple productivity OS. Basically SL with security updates, new drivers, etc. I'm too attached to Mac (+25 years) to move to another platform.

I don't care how much it costs, just give me the best.

I understand you. OS X is being dumbed down with each release. Apple seems to be bringing all the crap from iOS to OS X. It's a world of Twitter and Facebook, where what matters most is posting your tweaked photos with your friends alongside a small and incomprehensible sentence so the whole world can stare at your private life.

Things like productivity seems to be too boring for this world, and Apple's iWork doesn't get a significant update in years (but Twitter and Facebook integration, oh, these are there!).

Me too, I would like OS X to become better as a real OS for real computers, and not to incorporate stupid things from a mobile, dumbed-down, OS. I want more speed, freedom, compatibility, ergonomics, and features. Not Gatekeeper or Facebook integration or Mac App Store.

But it's not happening only to Apple. Look at what Windows has become. It's just sad.

Everything is overly simplified, and features are becoming bloatedness and shall be eliminated.

We bought our iPhones, made them popular, and now we're trapped in its world of mobile hype, stupidness and dumbness. All of our computers are turning into big iPhones. Look at how simple, elegant and svelte it is. Suddenly, less is more.

There's no way out, my friend.

throttlemeister
Dec 16, 2012, 04:24 PM
Nobody is stopping anyone from running something like FreeBSD or Linux on your computer. Both are fast, real OS's for real computers that you can install as lean or as bloated as you want. You have the choice.

However, in the end, the OS doesn't matter, does it? The OS only boots the computer and starts an environment that allows you not to work with the OS, but with real software.

It doesn't matter what they put in the OS or how they dumb it down because all it does is let you work with other software.

Which is why most people work with Windows or OSX, and not *BSD or Linux. Not because the latter two are so hard and difficult, but because the former two let you run the software people want to run.

So, who cares. If they put stuff in you don't like or need, disable it or ignore it. In the end, the only thing you need is a window that lets you start the software you need to use.

vea1083
Dec 21, 2012, 07:10 PM
Steve Jobs touted a single OS release strategy when he introduced Mac OS X Cheetah in 2001 and has been the standard on every OS X release. As a result I think there will be a single version of OS X in the foreseeable future.

koban4max
Dec 21, 2012, 07:23 PM
typical whiners..

Pro or not pro...it doesn't matter...you guys will have to adapt to moving on. As much as I like SL as OS X...we have to move on.

Eithanius
Dec 21, 2012, 10:58 PM
typical whiners..

Pro or not pro...it doesn't matter...you guys will have to adapt to moving on. As much as I like SL as OS X...we have to move on.

OR hold-back till kingdom come... then move on by migrating... :D:D:rolleyes:

benwiggy
Dec 22, 2012, 02:33 AM
And by Pro I don't mean for IT professionals, I mean a twitter-free/gatekeeper-free/crapware-free simple productivity OS. Basically SL with security updates, new drivers, etc. I'm too attached to Mac (+25 years) to move to another platform.
I don't care how much it costs, just give me the best.
I still don't understand the problem. Mountain Lion does have security updates and newer drivers than Snow Leopard.
If you don't want to use Twitter, don't. I don't.
Crapware? None bundled on my 2012 Mac.
Gatekeeper? Quite a useful thing, IMO, but easy to switch off in Prefs.

What do you want to see in a "Pro(ductive)" edition? OS X is certified Unix, with all kinds of automation capabilities -- Automator, AppleScript, Shell Scripting; you can run Pro(fessional) software like Creative Suite, Logic, Final Cut, FileMaker, etc. It is these things that make you productive, not "making 10.8 like 10.6".

The "dumbing down" of Lion and Mountain Lion has been sorely exaggerated.

iThinkergoiMac
Dec 23, 2012, 12:28 AM
Just get rid of the bloatware and give me a lean OS X. Give me exposé and spaces that works, not that mission control crap, it's killing productivity. Stop notifying me about ********. Stop integrating stuff like facebook into Mac. Mac is bigger than that. I love iOS for that kind of stuff, but not on the Mac. Give me mail that works. Let me put the apps I want on my computer. Finally give me a rock solid OS, friendly like the Mac I know.

Bloatware? What bloatware? There isn't any in OS X...

As others have pointed out, you can easily turn off/on the things you want. ML IS rock solid, and lean. It's as fast as SL on my MBP.

I am always highly amused when people claim Apple is dumbing down OS X. Other than the change of spaces from a grid to a line, Apple hasn't really removed anything from OS X that was there before. I can still use Aperture, FCPX, and Photoshop just as well as I could before. I can still manage my files just as well as before. Upgrading hasn't hindered me in the slightest.

Partron22
Dec 23, 2012, 06:42 PM
It's as fast as SL on my MBP.Finder 10.8.1 is often slower at updating folder contents than was System 7.0.1 on my Mac SE 30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_SE/30)*.
Yes, this is unfair given Apple's recent de-emphasis of 'Finder' in favor of 'Launchpad' etc., but we are talking about a 16 MHz machine, vs a multi-GHz machine with multiple cores.
Don't even get me started on boot times.
ML contains plenty of room for fat-trimming and general improvements. Nothing of the sort is going to happen any time soon, but that's no reason to delude ourselves into thinking everything is just ducky in Lion-land.


----
*Good golly, $6,500 in 1989 dollars!? I wonder who I stole that from?

76ShovelHead
Dec 23, 2012, 06:53 PM
Is it time for OS X to fork out into Pro and Consumer versions?

I think so. Since Apple won't give up dumbing down OS X to satisfy new iOS converts, shouldn't it offer an alternative for long time Mac users who value stable and productive working environment that OS X was up until Lion? I don't want to have to tweak OS X to make it work for me (not being an IT guy I probably can't!). And by Pro I don't mean for IT professionals, I mean a twitter-free/gatekeeper-free/crapware-free simple productivity OS. Basically SL with security updates, new drivers, etc. I'm too attached to Mac (+25 years) to move to another platform.

I don't care how much it costs, just give me the best.

I'm not happy either with Apple's recent changes to OS X. Steve is no longer here to tell people what's up, but don't worry, I'm confident that Mr. Cook will keep it rolling, and now that Jony Ive is in control of OS X hopefully we'll see things get back to normal.

Nielsenius
Dec 23, 2012, 08:06 PM
Why's everybody so hung up on SL? When I bought my first apple, it came preinstalled with Leopard (10.5.6).

When SL came along, this place was filled with complaints on how crap it was and people going back to Leopard.

When Lion came along, this place was filled with complaints on how crap it was and people going back to SL.

When ML came along, this place was filled with complaints on how crap it was and people going back to Lion.

I mean, it's history repeating itself with every major release.

SL leopard wasn't the cat's meow. If I look back at my benchmark results over all releases on the same laptop, Leopard was the fastest of the bunch. As far as stability, none of the cats so far have given me any real problems.

But despite all this, each new release from Apple is still better, more polished and more refined than the previous versions imo.
This person hit the nail right on the head. There's nothing in Mountain Lion that wasn't in Snow Leopard that makes it less productive. You could even argue that ML has more features that make it more productive. Some people like change, others hate it. Overall, I like Mountain Lion. That said, Launchpad is dumb.

MisterMe
Dec 23, 2012, 10:29 PM
Finder 10.8.1 is often slower at updating folder contents than was System 7.0.1 on my Mac SE 30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_SE/30)*.
Yes, this is unfair given Apple's recent de-emphasis of 'Finder' in favor of 'Launchpad' etc., but we are talking about a 16 MHz machine, vs a multi-GHz machine with multiple cores.
Don't even get me started on boot times.
ML contains plenty of room for fat-trimming and general improvements. Nothing of the sort is going to happen any time soon, but that's no reason to delude ourselves into thinking everything is just ducky in Lion-land.


----
*Good golly, $6,500 in 1989 dollars!? I wonder who I stole that from?As someone whose first Mac was an SE and who helped a colleague setup his SE/30, I can start with absolute confidence that the post quote above is complete nonsense.

throAU
Dec 23, 2012, 10:32 PM
Traded in my Apple III for a Macintosh, and Ubuntu is looking better with each OS release since Snow Leopard. Naturally, multi- monitor support sucks on Ubuntu too. OS's in general seem to be going thru an excessively cell phriendly phase. Perhaps that'll change in a decade.

As a linux user since 1995...

LOL.

Application support isn't there
The linux community is NIH hostile
Get ready to give up the apps you like every 18 months.

iThinkergoiMac
Dec 26, 2012, 12:22 AM
Finder 10.8.1 is often slower at updating folder contents than was System 7.0.1 on my Mac SE 30 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_SE/30).

Apples and oranges.

Yes, this is unfair given Apple's recent de-emphasis of 'Finder' in favor of 'Launchpad' etc., but we are talking about a 16 MHz machine, vs a multi-GHz machine with multiple cores.

It's not fair because they are fundamentally different OSs, not because Apple has de-emphasized Finder in favor of Launchpad (which it hasn't). New features for Finder in Mountain Lion: five. New features for Launchpad: one. Tell me which one got more attention.

Yes, modern Macs have astronomically more power than a Mac SE 30, but they also do astronomically more. Can OS X get faster? Of course, no one is saying that there isn't room for improvement.

Don't even get me started on boot times.

Why should you? There's very little reason to restart your Mac pretty much ever, apart from updates.

ML contains plenty of room for fat-trimming and general improvements.

This is true of pretty much any software that exists. It's ALWAYS true. So no one is denying that, but to claim that ML has bloatware (I know YOU didn't claim it) is completely inaccurate.

Nothing of the sort is going to happen any time soon, but that's no reason to delude ourselves into thinking everything is just ducky in Lion-land.

Nothing is ever perfect, but ML has been working quite well for me. My MBP is just as fast as it was with SL. And, TBH, it works faster than any Mac SE I've ever used in every aspect.