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View Full Version : DEBATE: Apple -VS- The Church Of Satan


blackpeter
Jan 19, 2002, 04:05 PM
I just read this today. I'm interested in this debate. Why did Apple come down on the Church Of Satan?

Make sure to read in full. Especially the end of the statement.

http://www.churchofsatan.com/Pages/Apple.html

Is this religious bigotry?

blackpeter
Jan 19, 2002, 04:08 PM
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krossfyter
Jan 19, 2002, 04:22 PM
interesting...

actually its the church of satan that goes with the flow.

the basic premise of a human is sin. church of satan is founded on that premise...the the very core..no hidding it of course.
to be unconventional is to fight that premise and overcome with Love and grace...

but thats a whole other story.. a theological one...one in which im sure most of you all dont care to take apart in or hear. so forgive me for goin on.

now....to shift gears to the bussiness implications of this post...

krossfyter
Jan 19, 2002, 05:02 PM
uuhh.. anyone care to respond to this debate?


im very intrested in what you all have to say about this.

Beej
Jan 19, 2002, 05:21 PM
It seems to me that the last correspondence took place almost a year ago. What has happened since then? There are no Apple logos etc on the site, but the Made with Macintosh site is still up and running.

As far as I can see - although I'm not a legal brain, and the page is heavily persuasive - Apple is in the wrong.

If Apple is in fact in the right, it certainly seems discriminatory that they would choose to order the removal of their logos etc from the page of a religious minority without taking action against the Made with Macintosh site.

blackpeter
Jan 19, 2002, 05:24 PM
You too Krossfyter...

Not that I don't disagree with your opinions about the Church itself, but I don't believe that you gave your opinion about the legitimacy of this cease and desist from Apple (from a purely secular standpoint).

Weather or not one may agree with this or that religion, I can show you countless Christian/Jewish/etc websites displaying the "Made With Macintosh" logo. I would put some of them here, but it's easy enough to find them (Google).

So what's the point? If a website isn't hateful or violent, why would Apple stiff-arm them for proudly displaying their "Made With Macintosh" signs?

They might be a little odd or cultish (kind of like... oh, forget it*) but they are MacHeads none the less.

I'm not defending the Church of Satan or attacking Apple. Just asking questions.

kirknord
Jan 19, 2002, 06:01 PM
We live in an overly litigious society.
After reading the diatribe by the webmaster of the church of satan, I had to give the guy credit. He made some good points. However, all the talk of innovation and great design left me cold. I have looked over the site in the past, out of curiosity rather than serious theological interest. The site is alright. It is by no means a design masterpiece. I also really don't understand why they felt it so necessary to display their platform of choice to the point of parodying the "Think Different" campaign.
Basically, from a usability standpoint, it doesn't make sense. Made With A Mac badges or any other badges like that are pointless from a usability perspective. They really have no inherent benefit to the end user in his or her attempt to find content truly relative to the site he or she is currently perusing. I appreciate the webmaster's attempt to link the philosophy of the church to Apple's corporate culture, but it seemed like a truly forced argument.
I appreciate the fact that he did not simply cave and remove the graphics in question. He questioned the whole matter and put forth a well thought out and reasoned explanation of their usage and questioned the legal reasoning behind the cease and desist order. I admire that.
Still, I think the guy was making mountains out of molehills.

voicegy
Jan 19, 2002, 06:07 PM
Free Speech is Free Speech.

Controversy is Controversy.

Apple really didn't have a leg to stand on by asking the web site to stop displaying the Made With Macintosh stamp. Those things are freely available and many sites use them...big whoop.

We all must admit that founding father LaVey and his church aren't "mainstream" by any stretch of the imagination.

Apple is about being outside the mainstream. Being different. Thinking different.

They're not in the business of being thought of in any way, no matter how small, that could be "construed" as being "connected" with an organization that worships Satan.

That's the key word here: "construed"

All theological discussion aside, let's look at it from a business perspective.

I tend to believe that Apple did, indeed, recieve "complaints" - the religious right is a force to be reckoned with, and faster than e-mail, all the Bible Belters would spread the word fast among their flock the erroneous message that "Apple supports Satan...don't buy their products."

If you laugh at that, take a look at the "hell" (hahaha) that such companies as Procter and Gamble, Liz Claiborne, and even McDonald's went through.

This rumor started over 20 years ago:

"The president of Procter & Gamble announced on a popular talk show that he donates a portion of the company's profits to the Church of Satan."

Then, this one appeared:

"The President of Procter & gamble appeared on the Phil Donahue Show on March 1, 1994. He announced that due to the openness of our society, he was coming out of the closet about his association with the church of Satan."

And, once again for grins, in July 1999:

The dog and pony were trotted into the ring once again, this time with the claim amended to the admission having taken place on 1 March 1998 on the Sally Jesse Raphael Show.

As for Liz Claiborne and McDonalds?

In 1990, designer Liz Claiborne was dogged by the widely-believed rumor that during a recent appearance on Oprah she admitted 40% of the profits from her clothing company went to support the Church of Satan.

McDonalds:

In 1977 the rumor mill had it that Ray Kroc of McDonalds had made the startling admission that his company tithed the Church of Satan.

EVEN THOUGH there was NOTHING to this bit of gossip, it was believed. And acted upon. Not only did customers boycott the golden arches, kids even quit their McDonald's-sponsored Little League teams over this slander.


The above examples are not only difficult to stop once started, it costs each respective company MAJOR BUCKS in attempts to fight the allegations...not in court, but in full page ads and other media outlets.

Because there are a lot of idiots out there that believe all sorts of crap. And always will be.


So, all that being said, if I were at Apple Corporate, and learned of a few e-mails and phone calls suggesting that Apple was into "devil worshipping" and God knows what (hardy har har) I would do just what the legal department did. Because Legal *knows* what's at stake if any such rumor started about its company, and who wants to deal with THAT bullcrap?!

It was a business decision. Nothing more. Hell, for all I know there are some satanists that work for Apple, and we all know that Steve Jobs is from another planet anyway.

My 13 cents.
Scott