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View Full Version : Another one bites the dust....reverting from ML to SL




RedRaven571
Jan 9, 2013, 01:33 PM
Just thought I'd share. After a month with ML, I reinstalled SL today, using a time machine back up. The only things I really liked about ML were Notifications and iMessage but, for me, they didn't counterbalance the slow boot and shut down times of ML, and I really didn't see any other major positive differences in the OS that would make me stay with it. I can't even use AirMirroring because my MBP is too old, so I need to use AirParrot with either OS.

I REALLY wanted to like it and stay with it; maybe will try again around 10.8.5 or so.



Krazy Bill
Jan 9, 2013, 08:46 PM
The only things I really liked about ML were Notifications and iMessage

iCloud?

but, for me, they didn't counterbalance the slow boot and shut down times of ML,

Hoping these get fixed in the next update. In the meantime I haven't found the need to reboot except maybe once a week or so. (Even then I don't know why I do it).

I REALLY wanted to like it and stay with it; maybe will try again around 10.8.5 or so.

It sucks. I've managed to ignore most of the frilly crap in ML. So much now I don't even notice if I try hard.

njean777
Jan 10, 2013, 01:41 AM
Do you have an SSD? I have never noticed slow boot times in my MBP.

torana355
Jan 10, 2013, 01:55 AM
My iMac boots up in 12 secs with ML.....

sidewinder
Jan 10, 2013, 02:48 AM
I never understood the fascination with boot times and shutdowns times in regards to Mac OS X. It's Unix system for crying out loud. If you restart the system enough to care about this you are doing something wrong....

S-

benwiggy
Jan 10, 2013, 05:38 AM
Before ditching an OS, I would certainly want to make sure that any problems I was having were actually directly caused by the new OS, rather than merely "something happening on my computer right now."

I haven't noticed any slowness in startup -- perhaps shutdown is slower than previously, but if I've pressed the shutdown button, I'm already moving out of the room.

You should never argue over taste, of course, and some people just "like" Snow Leopard. Personally, my experience is that most of the OS has the same features and functions, although there are some very nice additions and fixes, as well as some interesting new features and under-the-bonnet improvements.

Things like the ability to merge folders when copying in the Finder, for instance. AirDrop is also very useful for transferring files between Macs without having to have Sharing on all the time.

I like Resume -- I turn my Mac off every night, and when I start it up in the morning, it's exactly as it was. Apple is moving towards an OS where you don't need to know or care whether an app is actually loaded into memory before you start using it -- this is the only real "iOS-ification" of OS X.

I also like the new Documents method. I've been using Macs for twenty years, and yes you do have to change your habits a bit, but once you get used to it, it's a real boon. Finally free from the tyranny of having to hit save every time I do something! Versions is also very useful.

To say nothing of iCloud, which makes syncing Calendar, contacts, reminders, Notes, Photos and even documents across two Macs and an iPhone effortless. And you get another email address.

Even LaunchPad, which I thought initially was just a gimmick from iOS, is pretty handy for launching apps when you've got two large monitors and the Dock is miles away. Just make the gesture, and click on the App.

This is just a fraction, and much of this was introduced in Lion, whose benefits you also get if you're jumping from SL. (And with ML, you get the refinements on Lion's features.)
If anyone really wants to know about ML, then John Syracuse's detailed review on ArsTechnica is essential reading:
http://arstechnica.com/apple/2012/07/os-x-10-8/

Xenomorph
Jan 10, 2013, 08:58 AM
I never understood the fascination with boot times and shutdowns times in regards to Mac OS X. It's Unix system for crying out loud. If you restart the system enough to care about this you are doing something wrong....

S-

What the hell does being Unix have to do with anything?

And because shutdowns don't matter to you, they shouldn't matter to anyone else?

I use my MacBook Pro for work. That means I'm powering on and off my system at least once a day. Why would I leave it on all the time? It drains the battery, even when sleeping.

At the end of the day, I shut down my system. With OS X 10.8, it sits at the spinning animation on shutdown for a VERY long time. It didn't do that in 10.7 or 10.6. It's annoying.
I try to ignore it. I click shutdown and just pack up my MacBook Pro. I'm sure it's still "shutting down" as I leave my office.

b0fh666
Jan 10, 2013, 09:21 AM
interesting.

I have been using laptops 'for work' (linux,windows,mac) for the past 12 years and never had this habit of shutting down... just close the lid and let ACPI do its thing.

Luis2004
Jan 10, 2013, 10:42 AM
I wonder why this is happening to you. Maybe try booting from an SSD?

I didn't stick with the 5400rpm hard drive for long, but with the SSD I have about 6 or 7 seconds of boot up time, and probably a bit less for shut down.

And I agree on the wisdom of shutting down. Keeping it running is harder on the hardware over the long haul, there are many studies proving this. Whether it's a UNIX based system or not is completely irrelevant.

dukebound85
Jan 10, 2013, 10:46 AM
What the hell does being Unix have to do with anything?

And because shutdowns don't matter to you, they shouldn't matter to anyone else?

I use my MacBook Pro for work. That means I'm powering on and off my system at least once a day. Why would I leave it on all the time? It drains the battery, even when sleeping.

At the end of the day, I shut down my system. With OS X 10.8, it sits at the spinning animation on shutdown for a VERY long time. It didn't do that in 10.7 or 10.6. It's annoying.
I try to ignore it. I click shutdown and just pack up my MacBook Pro. I'm sure it's still "shutting down" as I leave my office.

curious, but why not sleep it? don't you have it plugged in when working?

i never shut down my mbp or my work mbp

unobtainium
Jan 10, 2013, 03:01 PM
I never shut down my MBP either. I can't think of any reason to. It just seems like it would be much more hassle to go through all the trouble of reinstalling Snow Leopard than it would be to just sleep your computer when you're not at work, and plug it in if battery is an issue. And what about iCloud integration, iMessage, etc? You are missing out on a lot of stuff just so that you can shut your computer down faster.

RedRaven571
Jan 10, 2013, 04:08 PM
I don't think it's a hardware issue since my mbp (late 2008, C2D 2.4, 8GB RAM, 640GB 7200RPM HDD) shuts down in perhaps 5 seconds with SL and boots in something like 1/2 the time as it does with ML. In ML, it also takes an extra few seconds to wake from sleep, and also inexplicably occasionally hangs on the log in screen for an extra 10-15 seconds before I can enter my password.

There are several threads on this forum, and lots of posts, that mention this exact same problem, from folks with newer hardware than mine.

I don't always shut it down, I mostly just sleep it. I don't know why it bugs me so much, I think it's because, when i switched from Windows, I was SO impressed with how quickly macs booted up and shut down, compared to windows computers, that now I'm spoiled.

And, as I mentioned, from my perspective, ML isn't really bringing any big WOW factor to the table that I have to have. All my apps work with SL and there's nothing I want to do that I can't using SL (although I do miss iMessage) :o.

SlCKB0Y
Jan 11, 2013, 11:24 PM
Why would I leave it on all the time? It drains the battery, even when sleeping.


Sleep uses very small amounts of power.

kage207
Jan 12, 2013, 01:08 AM
Sleep uses very small amounts of power.
If you have a SSD Mac that comes with it.

Though to the OP, I understand your frustration with the slow shut down times, I don't understand your boot time. My MBA is about 10seconds or so. If you have an HDD I could see it around 20seconds or so. Though that's not a problem at all. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to keep this in perspective. Remember the load times of older machines? Ooooo!!! Or booting XP or Vista? :D

I'm just glad I don't have to work in that environment.

RedRaven571
Jan 12, 2013, 07:53 AM
If you have a SSD Mac that comes with it.

Though to the OP, I understand your frustration with the slow shut down times, I don't understand your boot time. My MBA is about 10seconds or so. If you have an HDD I could see it around 20seconds or so. Though that's not a problem at all. I'm sorry, I'm just trying to keep this in perspective. Remember the load times of older machines? Ooooo!!! Or booting XP or Vista? :D

I'm just glad I don't have to work in that environment.

Yeah, my start up with ML is strange, about 25 rotations of the wheel on the screen with the Apple logo, then the cursor arrow appears in the upper left corner and the screen pauses for about another 10 seconds, then the log in screen appears. Once I put in my password, then my desktop appears and I am ready for business.

With SL, I get about 17 rotations of the wheel on the Apple screen then it goes almost immediately to log in. So, overall, about 1/2 the time as with ML.

Shutdown with SL is almost immediate, maybe a 5 second delay occasionally. With ML, it's a mixed bag of almost immediate, the blue-gray screen for a few seconds, or watching the spinning wheel for 15-25 seconds.

I realize none of the times are an eternity, and, to your point, still superior to Windows systems; I just don't understand why it happens with ML and not SL.

tigres
Jan 12, 2013, 08:31 AM
I am in agreement with OP.
if icould run SL on my 2012 MBA I would.

Not supporting iCloud from 10.6 when it worked fine w/MM was utter BS from apple.

SL is light years ahead of 10.7 and 10.8 on reliability.
I miss it, but still run it on an older iMac at my office.

kage207
Jan 12, 2013, 11:57 AM
SL is light years ahead of 10.7 and 10.8 on reliability.
I miss it, but still run it on an older iMac at my office.
I'd also have to disagree with you there. SL did not really incorporate many features into the OS and was basically doing under the hood changes to Leopard. I don't think you can compare the two (or three if you include Lion).

I would agree with you about Lion though. Worst system Apple has ever made/released.

Krazy Bill
Jan 12, 2013, 11:58 AM
Sleep uses very small amounts of power."small amounts" is relative. When you have to drive 300 miles between usage, that extra "small amount" makes all the difference.

The lengthy shutdown time in ML is "broke". Workarounds like sleep should not even be part of this discussion.

To anyone that disagrees I say, "duh".

JohnDoe98
Jan 12, 2013, 01:35 PM
I realize none of the times are an eternity, and, to your point, still superior to Windows systems; I just don't understand why it happens with ML and not SL.

Just a hypothesis, but perhaps because ML has to resume all the apps and settings upon the next boot, and SL doesn't do that so it can just shutdown each app? Do you people notice any difference in shutdown times when you deselect the reopen apps option on the shutdown menu and in the general system preferences, i.e. disable the resume feature?

cmChimera
Jan 12, 2013, 01:45 PM
And because shutdowns don't matter to you, they shouldn't matter to anyone else? Frankly, yes.

I use my MacBook Pro for work. That means I'm powering on and off my system at least once a day. Why would I leave it on all the time? It drains the battery, even when sleeping. I use my Macbook Pro for work as well, I really don't see how that makes a difference. Yes, sleep drains a minimal amount of battery. But if you were to sleep it overnight, I doubt it would completely drain the battery. Oh and did your Mac not come with a magsafe charger?


At the end of the day, I shut down my system. With OS X 10.8, it sits at the spinning animation on shutdown for a VERY long time. It didn't do that in 10.7 or 10.6. It's annoying.
I try to ignore it. I click shutdown and just pack up my MacBook Pro. I'm sure it's still "shutting down" as I leave my office. Close the lid so it goes to sleep, and leave.

iBookG4user
Jan 12, 2013, 01:54 PM
I would agree with you about Lion though. Worst system Apple has ever made/released.

While I did not like Lion, it was far from the worst. The early versions of Mac OS X were nothing to be proud of.

RedRaven571
Jan 12, 2013, 02:05 PM
Just a hypothesis, but perhaps because ML has to resume all the apps and settings upon the next boot, and SL doesn't do that so it can just shutdown each app? Do you people notice any difference in shutdown times when you deselect the reopen apps option on the shutdown menu and in the general system preferences, i.e. disable the resume feature?

Actually, I tried deselecting reopen apps, I even made a little app with Automator to shut down all open apps before I tried shutting down the computer, none of it made any difference.

JohnDoe98
Jan 12, 2013, 04:44 PM
Actually, I tried deselecting reopen apps, I even made a little app with Automator to shut down all open apps before I tried shutting down the computer, none of it made any difference.

Weird. Well there goes that hypothesis :)

RedRaven571
Apr 25, 2013, 10:19 PM
Well friends, here I am again. I installed 10.8.3 hoping for a better experience and have persevered or about a month or so but I'm probably going back to SL tomorrow.

Maybe it's just me, or my machine, but ML runs hotter, boots and shuts own slower, and I even think it may run a bit slower than SL.

I love the way my MBP runs on SL, but I keep getting lured back by the ML candy.

As I said before, I want to like it, what with iMessage, iCloud, etc. but I just don't think those counter balance the downside.

Maybe I'll try 10.9 when it comes out (if my machine is supported).

Isamilis
Apr 26, 2013, 05:25 AM
How much RAM do you have? Usually the system will be much smoother if you do fresh-install rather than upgrade. If you have 'only' 4 GB, then better stay in SL, unless your system will be slowing down later due to insufficient memory & paging it out to the disk (although it's fresh-install system).

Well friends, here I am again. I installed 10.8.3 hoping for a better experience and have persevered or about a month or so but I'm probably going back to SL tomorrow.

Maybe it's just me, or my machine, but ML runs hotter, boots and shuts own slower, and I even think it may run a bit slower than SL.

I love the way my MBP runs on SL, but I keep getting lured back by the ML candy.

As I said before, I want to like it, what with iMessage, iCloud, etc. but I just don't think those counter balance the downside.

Maybe I'll try 10.9 when it comes out (if my machine is supported).

RedRaven571
Apr 26, 2013, 07:49 AM
How much RAM do you have? Usually the system will be much smoother if you do fresh-install rather than upgrade. If you have 'only' 4 GB, then better stay in SL, unless your system will be slowing down later due to insufficient memory & paging it out to the disk (although it's fresh-install system).

Thanks Isamilis, I have 8gb ram and did a fresh install (erased and formatted the disk prior to installing ML).

Also, in ML, Safari is a huge memory hog.

Mr. Retrofire
Apr 26, 2013, 08:28 AM
While I did not like Lion, it was far from the worst. The early versions of Mac OS X were nothing to be proud of.
10.1.5 and 10.3.x were very fast and stable.

Isamilis
Apr 26, 2013, 06:05 PM
I have no issue using ML in MBA 2012 (i5/8GB). But, I have bad experience using ML in mid 2010 iMac (i3/4GB) and revert back to SL. I also don't like how ML took memory a lot in my iMac for their internal process and left only 1GB for user process. So, in my case, maybe the SSD and memory are the key factors.
In ML, safari took 115mb when light browsing (only 6 tabs open) and around 300mb when opening video and flash etc; booting 5-7 seconds and 3 seconds shutdown.

Thanks Isamilis, I have 8gb ram and did a fresh install (erased and formatted the disk prior to installing ML).

Also, in ML, Safari is a huge memory hog.

sidewinder
Apr 28, 2013, 04:21 AM
Usually the system will be much smoother if you do fresh-install rather than upgrade.

False.....

oneMadRssn
Apr 29, 2013, 01:07 PM
I actually like ML. I can see why people who bootcamp Windows complain about the reboot times, but besides that use case I don't see why this is a bother.

One question: Does anyone know a way to get back the bigger "traffic signal" buttons from SL? I'm referring to the red/yellow/green buttons in the top left corner of most windows. The smaller circles still bug me for some reason.

Michael Goff
Apr 29, 2013, 01:15 PM
With 10.8.4, shutdown and startup are pretty zippy for me.

>_>

Then again, it was never actually slow because of my SSD. It was just... suboptimal.

RedRaven571
Apr 30, 2013, 06:39 AM
I actually like ML. I can see why people who bootcamp Windows complain about the reboot times, but besides that use case I don't see why this is a bother.

One question: Does anyone know a way to get back the bigger "traffic signal" buttons from SL? I'm referring to the red/yellow/green buttons in the top left corner of most windows. The smaller circles still bug me for some reason.

Interesting, I haven't heard this before, the presence of a windows bootcamp slows ML boot time, even if OSX is selected as the startup disk?

jameslmoser
Apr 30, 2013, 10:21 AM
Interesting, I haven't heard this before, the presence of a windows bootcamp slows ML boot time, even if OSX is selected as the startup disk?

I don't think thats what they were saying. I think they were just saying the need to reboot to Windows is one reason why the boot times would be more noticeable.

oneMadRssn
Apr 30, 2013, 10:44 AM
Interesting, I haven't heard this before, the presence of a windows bootcamp slows ML boot time, even if OSX is selected as the startup disk?

No, the presence of bootcamp does not slow anything.

What I'm saying is, people who use bootcamp for certain apps (like Solidworks for example) often reboot from one OS into the other. Therefore, all the time waiting during reboot is frustrating to them.

RedRaven571
May 1, 2013, 08:46 AM
No, the presence of bootcamp does not slow anything.

What I'm saying is, people who use bootcamp for certain apps (like Solidworks for example) often reboot from one OS into the other. Therefore, all the time waiting during reboot is frustrating to them.

Gotcha. I didn't think just the presence of a bootcamp partition would slow boot time.