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View Full Version : Christmas in the W-House violates separation of Church/State


peter2002
Dec 5, 2002, 04:06 PM
All the Christmas decor in the White House is a clear violation of the separation of Church and State. It does nothing more than glorify, beautify, and promote Christianity.

Most cities do the same Christmas PR with lighting of the tree and lights in New York City and other cities in hopes of suckering X-mas shoppers to spend your savings on your bratty kids' toys that will break, choke on, or get bored with 1 week later. In January, you will be stuck with a maxed-out credit card that you will be fighting your spouse over.

They are even doing such Christmas festivals at public colleges. Such festivals are a rip-off of Chanukah.

People would be outraged if the government spent this kind of money to celebrate Ramadan, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, Budism, etc.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002-12-05-christmas-tree_x.htm

Peter :D

alex_ant
Dec 5, 2002, 04:29 PM
I'm an atheist and I celebrate Christmas. I don't know when it began, but sometime in the past, the culture of Christmas kind of became divided into two parts, and one part became able to stand on its own without needing the help of the other part: There's the explicitly religious part, and the having a tree / giving gifts / putting up colored lights / baking cookies etc. part, which no longer seems to necessarily go hand-in-hand with the religious part. So it's not Christianity or Jesus I'm celebrating - it's a general spirit of good will and peace and giving and all that ****e. I don't have any problem with Bush celebrating this in the White House, as long as he keeps his bloody crosses and whatnot either in Texas or in his own private areas of the White House.

jelloshotsrule
Dec 5, 2002, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant
it's a general spirit of good will and peace and giving and all that ****e.

stop stealing "****e" from me. jerkass


i agree with alex, though i'm christian, so i celebrate the religious side of things.

that's foremost to me.

word.

alex_ant
Dec 5, 2002, 04:57 PM
What? You stole it from me, dickwad!

AssassinOfGates
Dec 5, 2002, 05:05 PM
"In god we trust"

The "government" has always disobeyed the laaw of seperation. Take a look at Bush. He always closes with "...and God bless America". The gov does a lot of stuff they're not supposed to, get used to it.

Yes, i am atheist.

springscansing
Dec 5, 2002, 05:05 PM
Whatever... it's alright. It's not like its mandatory to celebrate it. You can put decorations on your house, why can't Bush? :-)

- Springs

daytona63
Dec 5, 2002, 05:21 PM
Amendment I of the U.S. Constitution
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Ummm, the government is not breaking its own laws, considering that from the 1st Continental Congress a prayer was said before putting Congress into session, considering that George Washington took his Presidential Oath on a Bible, considering that "In God We Trust" is on our coinage, etc. etc. etc. Congress has never made a law establishing a religion, nor has it prevented one from being exercised (beyond ritual human sacrifice and other such things, of course). This argument is raised every year, and each time it's as lame as before.
Quite frankly, the idea of preventing George Bush, or city, state and federal organizations from displaying such decorations goes against the amendment.

zarathustra
Dec 5, 2002, 05:23 PM
The White House, while the property of the US people, is still the home of the president. His beliefs are christian, so he celebrates christmas. It IS his house for the four years. If we had a Jewish or Muslim president, I am sure there would be a different celebration/decoration.

The separation of church and state I don't think applies in this situation, since it's a gray area.

wdlove
Dec 5, 2002, 05:25 PM
The White House is called the peoples house. The president is a resident in that house, government housing. The outside of the White House is decorated simply with ribbon, wreaths, & garland. Its the inside that is decorated by the current resident, done since its completition. The decoration is usually done under the direction of the First Lady a private citizen. Its the same as someone in the military living in base housing, their allowed to decorate with personal taste.

medea
Dec 5, 2002, 05:26 PM
Well if we had a Jewish president would it be alright to celebrate Chanukah on a wide Whitehouse scale instead of Christmas? I think the white house should decorate and celebrate all of the holidays in order to be fair, but I'm not sure if they do that because I've never been.

daytona63
Dec 5, 2002, 05:38 PM
Yeah, if the President were Jewish, I'm sure he'd probably do things a little more from his own tradition. However, I bet you that because the majority of the country is Christian, he'd probably do a little of both, at least the ribbons and bows thing. That's one thing people always forget, that most people are Christian and that to hinder their expression hurts the MOST amount of people. Should I go to Paris on the 4th of July and get pissed that there isn't a parade and fireworks? Yeah, maybe that's extreme, but you know what I mean.

wdlove
Dec 5, 2002, 05:49 PM
The White House is very elegantly decorated, religion is not the focus!


http://www.whitehouse.gov/holiday/

http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=1859981

medea
Dec 5, 2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by daytona63
Yeah, if the President were Jewish, I'm sure he'd probably do things a little more from his own tradition. However, I bet you that because the majority of the country is Christian, he'd probably do a little of both, at least the ribbons and bows thing. That's one thing people always forget, that most people are Christian and that to hinder their expression hurts the MOST amount of people. Should I go to Paris on the 4th of July and get pissed that there isn't a parade and fireworks? Yeah, maybe that's extreme, but you know what I mean.

Actually they hold a 4th of July celebration in Paris at the US Embassy, and you could just wait until the 14th of July for the celebration of Bastille Day, which I'm would put any 4th of July party youve ever seen to shame.:D

Mal
Dec 5, 2002, 06:00 PM
I don't know why people insist on trying to condemn things based on the idea of the seperation of church and state. Nowhere in the Constitution is that phrase OR idea used. The only thing that comes close is the 1st Amendment (mentioned before by daytona63), and that protects the free exercise of religion ANYWHERE!!! That includes the US Senate, House of Representatives, the White House, Federal and State Courts, Public Schools, anywhere. The government cannot prohibit you from exercising your religion for any reason other than if it directly harms another person, like the example of human sacrifices. That was the whole basis on which this country was founded. There is no ground for saying the President can't celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday just because he is a public official.

JW

taeclee99
Dec 5, 2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by peter2002
All the Christmas decor in the White House is a clear violation of the separation of Church and State. It does nothing more than glorify, beautify, and promote Christianity, a religion with a track record not much better than Islam, up to August 14, 1945.

Most cities do the same Christmas PR with lighting of the tree and lights in New York City and other cities in hopes of suckering X-mas shoppers to spend your savings on your bratty kids' toys that will break, choke on, or get bored with 1 week later. In January, you will be stuck with a maxed-out credit card that you will be fighting your spouse over.

They are even doing such Christmas festivals at public colleges. Such festivals are a rip-off of Chanukah.

People would be outraged if the government spent this kind of money to celebrate Ramadan, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, Budism, etc. But the gov. will bend over backwards for a religion white conservative folks have embraced that think God will forgive them for their sins as long as they give 10% and luv Jesus. Dream on...

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2002-12-05-christmas-tree_x.htm

It is truly amazing to see people never learn. They always repeat the stupid mistakes of the previous generations.

Peter

Peter

No Offense but I think you need a simple lesson is history. Our Founding Fathers were Christian. The pilgrims came here from England to escape religious tyranny of the Anglican Church. They wanted to worship free from governmental persecution. The Founding Fathers recognized the inportance of religious liberty.

Fact. America was founded on Judeo-Christian priciples

Fact. The First Ammendment which prohibits the establishment of an official religion does not prohibit the practice of relogion.

Fact. The Founders refer to the Creator in many documents including the Declaration of Independence.

Fact: The Declarartion begins by saying that "all men arfe created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unailable rights."

Fact. The Founders themselves celebrated religious holidays such as Christmas and Easter openly in public.

Fact: The inscriptions on the Linclon and Jefferson Memorials refer to God.


Fact: The very room that the Supreme Court meets in has the Ten Commandents on the wall.

The Separation of Church and State was not meant to remove religion out of government. It was designed to keep government out of religion.

cfountain72
Dec 5, 2002, 06:14 PM
I'm admittedly perplexed by the post. Perhaps you just throw something out there to get attention. OK, I'll bite.

As others have already noted, there is no Law of Separation of Church and State. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Congress has made no law that says the President HAS to have a Chrsitmas tree, anymore than they say you HAVE to have one. If they said he/she couldn't, THAT would constitute the prohibition of free exercise.

You are correct about the commercialization of Christmas, but the source of this surely is not found in any church that I'm aware of. Instead, the genesis of this phenomenon can be found in man's inherent state of prideful sin.

The comment about "bending over backwards for white conservative folks" is really un-informed. Christianity is not a "white" religion, as the millions of Black, Latino, Chinese, Arab, etc., Christians will happily attest to.

Finally, as a Catholic, I do agree that professing love of Jesus and the giving of a tithe are not pre-requisites to forgiveness of sins. Actually, it requires a good deal more: a sincere repentence for one's transgressions.

If you care to start some serious research and learn about one facet of Christianity, please visit www.catholic.com.

Sincerely,

crf

jelloshotsrule
Dec 5, 2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by alex_ant
What? You stole it from me, dickwad!

i ****ing hate you. except for when we're in the public eye. gotta put on a good face for the campaign..... no dissent in this camp folks!

daytona63
Dec 5, 2002, 06:56 PM
Actually they hold a 4th of July celebration in Paris at the US Embassy, and you could just wait until the 14th of July for the celebration of Bastille Day, which I'm would put any 4th of July party youve ever seen to shame.

medea, you know what I meant: a French 4th of July celebration, but anyways... I know you're just messing around though. I've heard that Bastille Day is amazing, although the thought of celebrating the French Revolution and all the slop that followed isn't appealing. Thanks for the info though, I do love Paris! I've only been once though, alas.

Groovsonic
Dec 5, 2002, 07:54 PM
Well, If this ins't flamebait, I don't know what is!

NOWHERE in the constitution does it say "separation of church and state".

I am a Christian, But If our president were Jewish, I would totally respect his right to celebrate jewish holidays, just as I am sure that such a president would respect the fact that most americans are christians, and so respect christian hloidays.

(rant on)

Jeez...If they made a law saying you HAD to celebrat christmas, or you HAD to practice christianity, then that would be illegal. I can never figure out if activist atheists are just backslidden christians who are bitter and defensive, or if they are just hateful. I cannot figure out atheism anyways... Did this really happen by chance? Did we happen to magically appear? If so then, what caused it? There had to be a first cause. Where did the matter or energy or whatever you say started everything come from? It had to come from something, but it COULDN'T have if there was nothing to cause it. I especially cannot figure out activist atheists...You are activists about nothing...Does that make any sense???

(rant off)


Anyways, I think you were trying to flamebait, so never mind...

alex_ant
Dec 5, 2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i ****ing hate you. except for when we're in the public eye. gotta put on a good face for the campaign..... no dissent in this camp folks!
Crotchal piss in two thousand six... teen!

bousozoku
Dec 5, 2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by skywalker
I don't know why people insist on trying to condemn things based on the idea of the seperation of church and state. Nowhere in the Constitution is that phrase OR idea used. The only thing that comes close is the 1st Amendment (mentioned before by daytona63), and that protects the free exercise of religion ANYWHERE!!! That includes the US Senate, House of Representatives, the White House, Federal and State Courts, Public Schools, anywhere. The government cannot prohibit you from exercising your religion for any reason other than if it directly harms another person, like the example of human sacrifices. That was the whole basis on which this country was founded. There is no ground for saying the President can't celebrate Christmas as a religious holiday just because he is a public official.

JW

The president is violating others' freedom of religion by pushing his in speeches. My freedom of religion guarantees that I don't have to listen to it, if that's what I want. It also protects those who want to practise a religion. It goes both ways.

Groovsonic
Dec 5, 2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by bousozoku


The president is violating others' freedom of religion by pushing his in speeches. My freedom of religion guarantees that I don't have to listen to it, if that's what I want. It also protects those who want to practise a religion. It goes both ways.


WHAT??? If the president wants to read from the Bible or talk about his Christian faith (or sing showtunes or practice playing the cello or make pancakes, or dye his hair purple and insist that people call him Lady Tamarind for all I care), who are you to say he shouldn't. Just because he is the president doesn't mean he gave up his first amendment right. You don't HAVE to listen to his speeches. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you must, so NO ONE, including the president is violating you rights.

Lighten up and get over it.

taeclee99
Dec 5, 2002, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Groovsonic



WHAT??? If the president wants to read from the Bible or talk about his Christian faith (or sing showtunes or practice playing the cello or make pancakes, or dye his hair purple and insist that people call him Lady Tamarind for all I care), who are you to say he shouldn't. Just because he is the president doesn't mean he gave up his first amendment right. You don't HAVE to listen to his speeches. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying you must, so NO ONE, including the president is violating you rights.

Lighten up and get over it.

I couldn't have said it any better myself.

BenderBot1138
Dec 6, 2002, 06:24 AM
The X in Xmas has a special meaning for George W. Bush, a member of the Skull and bones. The crossbones is a symbol of the secret organization that President Bush and his Father put well before Christianity.

George W. Bush isn't a Christian, he's a Skull. He puts his affiliation with the Secret Skull And Bones Organization (http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/robbins.htm) ahead of the Christian faith he claims to hold. In truth, President George W. Bush's Christian Faith is a nothing more than a clever populist move designed to attract a majority of american voters who hold such values. In a Muslim Country he would say he's a Muslim, which makes his attacks on foreign faith's even more unpalitable.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/images/george.jpg

George if your reading this... renounce your Skull membership and consider a real faith of somekind. Quit plotting to kill people...

:cool:

Sun Baked
Dec 6, 2002, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by alex_ant
What? You stole it from me, dickwad!

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i ****ing hate you. except for when we're in the public eye. gotta put on a good face for the campaign..... no dissent in this camp folks!
Looks like alex_ant and jelloshotsrule are already celebrating their beer swilling Redneck Christmas.

Just the sort of holiday spirits that can bring tears to your eyes, from the smell of the stale beer.

lordsinforge
Dec 6, 2002, 08:51 AM
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/images/george.jpg

So did you read that article before posting it's link?:

"Young George is as unlikely a Bonesperson as I've ever met."
"Young George has not attended a Yale reunion since he graduated. "

Doesn't sound like someone deep into the S&B societyto me.

jayscheuerle
Dec 6, 2002, 09:18 AM
While we're talking of Christmas, let us not forget just why we celebrate it on December 25th as opposed to Jesus's birthday (which was sometime in January I believe?). The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north. Hence the "Sun" of God. December 25th is the attributed birthdate of many godlike figures, which attempt to usurp supernatural reverency from the pagans, who were just paying head to a very natural occurance.

How all this became an economic jubilation centered around Santa Claus is beyond me, but the pressured giving (is it really giving then?) is hillarious!

Happy whatever holiday you want to celebrate! - j

alex_ant
Dec 6, 2002, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by Sun Baked

Looks like alex_ant and jelloshotsrule are already celebrating their beer swilling Redneck Christmas.

Just the sort of holiday spirits that can bring tears to your eyes, from the smell of the stale beer.
Eggnogg swilling pants pissers Christmas is more like it! And in this case it's not the holiday spirits that will bring tears to one's eyes, it's jelloshotsrule's body odor. Whoooo!

Mr. Anderson
Dec 6, 2002, 06:07 PM
So working at National Airport today and we were interupted for the rest of the afternoon because George Bush senior flew into town in a nice Gulfstream G5. I snapped the pic below (sorry for the quality, it wasn't my camera, but a really old Sony Mavica with the floppy disc! :( ) They ended up parking the plane in the hangar so our work was interupted till they leave.

D

Mr. Anderson
Dec 6, 2002, 06:17 PM
Damn pic didn't load - sorry.

D

wdlove
Dec 6, 2002, 07:03 PM
Sites to see the history & origins of Christmas.

http://www.cvc.org/christmas/

http://www.christmas-time.com/ct-history.htm

jayscheuerle
Dec 6, 2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by wdlove
Sites to see the history & origins of Christmas.

http://www.cvc.org/christmas/

http://www.christmas-time.com/ct-history.htm

Going to a Christian School for information about the origins of Christmas is like going to RJ Reynolds to learn about the dangers of Tobacco- not exactly an unbiased, agenda-free site...

BenderBot1138
Dec 7, 2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by lordsinforge
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/images/george.jpg

So did you read that article before posting it's link?:

"Young George is as unlikely a Bonesperson as I've ever met."
"Young George has not attended a Yale reunion since he graduated. "

Doesn't sound like someone deep into the S&B societyto me.

ALAS... unfortunately George W. Bush is a Skull, and followed to the letter the initiation rights of the skulls - in full. If you read the full article, you'll see that there are some bizarre intiation rituals involved in George Bush's membership as well.

But yea, that's why I posted it - it's balanced. You picked out just a few things out of that article, and if it makes you feel better to think Bush isn't a skull, then I guess that's ok too. But the quote you selected does little to disprove that there is this private (and unsanctioned) activity by President Bush that deeply affects his public office and behavior. For example, all Skulls, including George W. Bush, are expected to engage in a large War.

It's important to realize that someone needs to ask George Bush for details of his affilliation with the Skulls. Skull initiates, as part of becoming a skull, lay in coffins and masterbate while recounting their sexual exploits. This nets the initiates a financial reward and membership. Someone needs to ask President George W. Bush if he has ever masterbated in a coffin as part of some bizzarre ritual of initiation.

I'd like to know how many people think that a person who lays in a coffin and masterbates as part of some bizarre initiation into a secret organization, is less susceptable to impeachment than a person who gets a blowjob.

Such bizarre sexual behavior by President Bush (masterbating in a coffin as an initation into the skulls) seems like a far worse behavior than getting a blowjob... but you tell me... would you want someone who masterbates in a coffin with his finger on the button - let-a-lone even serving you a hamburger?

zarathustra
Dec 26, 2002, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by BenderBot1138

Such bizarre sexual behavior by President Bush (masterbating in a coffin as an initation into the skulls) seems like a far worse behavior than getting a blowjob... but you tell me... would you want someone who masterbates in a coffin with his finger on the button - let-a-lone even serving you a hamburger?

OK, I have to drag this old post out of the dump, because it's plain ridiculous! This is just speculation on your part, no concrete evidence, like a blue dress with protein spots. Even if it was true what you claim, cheating on a wife and lying under oath about it is better how???