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View Full Version : Firewire-USB, who invented?


macdon401
Oct 12, 2005, 07:32 PM
Hi, question I got from a friend...did Apple invent Firewire technology and USB port tech as well, think I heard they did somewhere but not sure?
Thanks
R

homerjward
Oct 12, 2005, 07:36 PM
iirc intel invented usb.

Counterfit
Oct 12, 2005, 07:50 PM
USB = Intel
FireWire = Apple (with Sony joining in later)

homerjward
Oct 12, 2005, 07:52 PM
USB = Intel
FireWire = Apple (with Sony joining in later)
did sony invent the 4-pin thing? if so...ugh...they suck...
edit: speaking of sony and 4-pin firewire, is there anything for the ps2 that uses firewire? i tried using a firewire hard drive to save pics in gt4 but it didnt work and i tried about every other firewire device i have...nothing.

zap2
Oct 12, 2005, 07:52 PM
why does not all computers use fireWire , it all round better i have yet to find something that FireFire coudl not do if given teh chance!

grapes911
Oct 12, 2005, 08:04 PM
speaking of sony and 4-pin firewire, is there anything for the ps2 that uses firewire? i tried using a firewire hard drive to save pics in gt4 but it didnt work and i tried about every other firewire device i have...nothing.
Sony put iLink on the PS2 to allow gamers to network Playstations together (sort of like gameboy used to do). You need two games, two controllers, two PS2s, two TV, etc. Each gamer gets their own screen. Good idea until they released the network adapter. I'm pretty sure the PStwo doesn't come with the iLink port.

Sayer
Oct 12, 2005, 08:41 PM
Actually Intel purchased the USB technology originally created by a single guy while working at some peripheral company whose name escapes me at the moment (Imation maybe).

FireWire was 100% Apple, who wanted to collect something like $0.25 per port for patent royalties.

As a side note Apple has now completely eliminated FireWire support from the iPods in favor of USB 2.0. This was claimed to be a "Windows" friendly move since a lot of PeeCees lack FireWire (and buying a $30 card to add FireWire is such a hardship for people who spend $400 for their entire PeeCee).

Oh well.

grapes911
Oct 12, 2005, 09:00 PM
FireWire was 100% Apple, who wanted to collect something like $0.25 per port for patent royalties.
Totally, totally incorrect.

Apple, Sony, Canon, ST Microelectronics, Matsushita, National Semiconductor, RF Microdevices, ST Microelectronics, and others I can't think of right now all directly had a hand in creating Firewire. They all share the patents for it. The 25 cents per system to use firewire even gets distributed between them all via the 1394 Licensing Authority. Even more companies were indirectly involved. Even an Intel protocol was used in the design. Apple just thinks they invented Firewire.

Mechcozmo
Oct 12, 2005, 09:49 PM
why does not all computers use fireWire , it all round better i have yet to find something that FireFire coudl not do if given teh chance!

Keyboards? Mice? Internal bus?

FireWire is much better for large files, USB is much better for small data transfers.

Also, the internal BlueTooth module connects through USB. Easier to implement than over FireWire.

They compliment each other. I think it is good mix... pretty easy to use and operate, anywhoo.

Counterfit
Oct 14, 2005, 03:07 PM
did sony invent the 4-pin thing? if so...ugh...they suck...

4 pin FireWire ports (a.k.a. i.Link) have their uses. They're great on digital video cameras, which require more power than the bus can provide (I think), or anything else that generally runs on separate power supplies.

MisterMe
Oct 14, 2005, 07:09 PM
Totally, totally incorrect.

Apple, Sony, Canon, ST Microelectronics, Matsushita, National Semiconductor, RF Microdevices, ST Microelectronics, and others I can't think of right now all directly had a hand in creating Firewire. They all share the patents for it. The 25 cents per system to use firewire even gets distributed between them all via the 1394 Licensing Authority. Even more companies were indirectly involved. Even an Intel protocol was used in the design. Apple just thinks they invented Firewire.Totally incorrect? Before spouting off, you would do well to read some history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire).

skubish
Oct 14, 2005, 08:10 PM
Totally incorrect? Before spouting off, you would do well to read some history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire).
So it looks like Apple invented the name Firewire but the IEEE had already established the standard which Apple modified.

Personally I prefer Firewire simply because it is easy to see which have to plug it in compared to USB.

Anonymous Freak
Oct 14, 2005, 09:02 PM
Long:
FireWire (the name) was created by Apple to describe a hardware interface that they designed most of, based on the control protocol defined by the IEEE. Apple and many other companies own patents on what is currently called 'FireWire'.

USB was originated by Intel, with input from many other companies, including Microsoft. It was, however, POPULARLIZED by Apple with the original iMac. (USB ports had been included on PCs for a couple years before that, but USB peripherals were few and far between until Apple forced Mac users to switch over.)

iEdd
Oct 14, 2005, 11:08 PM
4 pin FireWire ports (a.k.a. i.Link)

IEEE 1394 -Technical term
Firewire -Apple's name. Available in 6 or 4 pin.
i-Link -Sony's name. Available in 6 or 4 pin.
i-Link isn't just the 4 pin port on the video cameras.. That name is just used a lot because a lot are sony.

xsedrinam
Oct 14, 2005, 11:12 PM
And all this time, I thought it was Al Gore.

sjpetry
Oct 14, 2005, 11:42 PM
And all this time, I thought it was Al Gore.
Well there's a little bit o' Gore in all of us. So you're right.

grapes911
Oct 15, 2005, 12:15 AM
Totally incorrect? Before spouting off, you would do well to read some history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FireWire).Before you post links, you should read them.


FireWire was developed primarily by Apple Computer in the 1990s Why would anyone say primary if they invented 100% of it? Wouldn't you just say "FireWire was developed by Apple Computer in the 1990s"?


Simultaneously, Sony and the other backers of the technology noted to Apple that they all had patents too and were entitled to per-port royalties. Why would other companies hold patents for a technology that Apple invented by themselves?


According to Michael Johas Teener, original chair and editor of the IEEE 1394 standards document, and technical lead for Apple's FireWire team from 1990 until 1996:According to Michael Johas Teener's website:
There are many people and organizations that worked together to "invent" Firewire. link (http://www.teener.com/FireWire/index.html). The site lists many of the companies I listed above.

Maybe you are the one "spouting off". And take your own advice "you would do well to read some."

Counterfit
Oct 15, 2005, 12:16 AM
IEEE 1394 -Technical term
Firewire -Apple's name. Available in 6 or 4 pin.
i-Link -Sony's name. Available in 6 or 4 pin.
i-Link isn't just the 4 pin port on the video cameras.. That name is just used a lot because a lot are sony.
From Wikipedia*:
Sony's implementation of the system is known as i.Link, and uses only the four signal pins, discarding the two pins that provide power to the device in favor of a separate power connector on Sony's i.Link products.



*: I know I know, Wikipedia is not the end-all be-all resource, but it beats nothing.

LethalWolfe
Oct 15, 2005, 12:30 AM
From Wikipedia*:
Sony's implementation of the system is known as i.Link, and uses only the four signal pins, discarding the two pins that provide power to the device in favor of a separate power connector on Sony's i.Link products.
*: I know I know, Wikipedia is not the end-all be-all resource, but it beats nothing.

And in this case it's incorrect. :)

Sony's more expensive DV/DVCAM decks and cameras featuring i.Link use 6-pin, not 4-pin, jacks.


Lethal

EricNau
Oct 15, 2005, 12:38 AM
Originally Posted by LethalWolfe
And in this case it's incorrect.

Sony's more expensive DV/DVCAM decks and cameras featuring i.Link use 6-pin, not 4-pin, jacks.


Lethal
Apple has never made a 4 pin firewire, it came from Sony. Apple supports 6 pin (Firewire 400) and 9 pin (Firewire 800)

EricNau
Oct 15, 2005, 12:43 AM
And in case anyone is curious...
Intel created USB 2.0 because of Apple's Firewire, since Apple wanted to charge a very small fee for the use of each plug. You may see that USB is rated at faster speeds than firewire 400, however many tests have proved that this is not the case...Firewire is faster.

By the way, apple did make firewire...
Originally posted by Apple
...Apple's FireWire technology... http://developer.apple.com/devicedrivers/firewire/index.html

Xeem
Oct 15, 2005, 01:15 AM
And in this case it's incorrect. :)

Sony's more expensive DV/DVCAM decks and cameras featuring i.Link use 6-pin, not 4-pin, jacks.


Lethal

Yeah, but I'm probably not the only one that hears i.Link and assumes it'll be four pins.

EricNau
Oct 15, 2005, 01:18 AM
Yeah, but I'm probably not the only one that hears i.Link and assumes it'll be four pins.
No, you're right to, a lot of Sony computers still come with a 4-pin i.Link

LethalWolfe
Oct 15, 2005, 04:05 AM
Apple has never made a 4 pin firewire, it came from Sony. Apple supports 6 pin (Firewire 400) and 9 pin (Firewire 800)

Did I say Apple does have 4 pin FW products? And I don't know what the fixation w/Sony and the 4 pin is. Both the 6 and the 4 pin are part of the IEEE-1394 spec and there are tons of non-Sony, non-i.Link devices that only use 4 pins.

By the way, apple did make firewire...
FireWire is basically Apple's version of IEEE-1394. Just as the iPod is Apple's version of an MP3 player. And following your logic that means that Apple invented the MP3 player. Apple has probably been the largest proponent of IEEE-1394-based technology, but giving them sole credit for said technology just isn't accurate. Macs embraced USB way before their PC counterparts, but we all know that Apple didn't invent USB.

Yeah, but I'm probably not the only one that hears i.Link and assumes it'll be four pins.
And now you know the truth. You no longer have to assume.

Lethal

Counterfit
Oct 15, 2005, 11:52 PM
Apple has never made a 4 pin firewire, it came from Sony. Apple supports 6 pin (Firewire 400) and 9 pin (Firewire 800)
Well, there is the adapter that they used to ship with iPods...

EricNau
Oct 16, 2005, 12:01 AM
Well, there is the adapter that they used to ship with iPods...
What adapter?

Counterfit
Oct 16, 2005, 12:16 AM
What adapter?
It's just a little 6-pin to 4-pin adapter they included for those not blessed with 6-pin ports ;)

EricNau
Oct 16, 2005, 12:21 AM
It's just a little 6-pin to 4-pin adapter they included for those not blessed with 6-pin ports ;)
At that time were the iPods compatable with PC's?

Counterfit
Oct 16, 2005, 12:24 AM
Yes, they've been compatible since the 2G (5, 10, 20GB)

EricNau
Oct 16, 2005, 12:31 AM
I'm not really sure what you were trying to tell me when you said
Originally Posted by Counterfit
Well, there is the adapter that they used to ship with iPods...
If you were trying to tell me that meant Apple made computers w/ 4-pin firewire, I don't think so (I guess I could be wrong though :eek: )
OR...
It you were trying to tell me they did support it...I guess they kinda did, in a limited way.

reberto
Oct 16, 2005, 12:58 AM
Well, there is the adapter that they used to ship with iPods...

But almost nobody used it.....

portent
Oct 16, 2005, 01:01 AM
From the 1394 Trade Association (http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/index.htm)The 1394 digital link standard was conceived in 1986 by technologists at Apple Computer, who chose the trademark 'FireWire', in reference to its speeds of operation. The first specification for this link was completed in 1987. It was adopted in 1995 as the IEEE 1394 standard. A number of IEEE 1394 products are now available including digital camcorders with the IEEE 1394 link, IEEE 1394 digital video editing equipment, digital VCRs, digital cameras, digital audio players, 1394 IC's and a wealth of other infrastructure products such as connectors, cables, test equipment, software toolkits, and emulation models.

The people who "concieved" of FireWire (Including Mike Teener, whose FAQ is linked above) were all employees of Apple Computer, Inc. in the '80s and '90s.

As the standard evolved, more companies were approached by Apple and became involved in the development of the technology. Eventually, FireWire was proposed as a standard, which was eventually accepted by IEEE.

Saying "Apple invented FireWire" is an oversimplification, but it is still more accurate than saying "Apple did not invent FireWire."

USB was "concieved" at Intel. As with FireWire, many other companies, including Microsoft, contributed to the final USB specifications, but Intel was the largest player. Same thing with PCI slots, for that matter.

Apple was not involved in the development of USB, and was actually fairly late in including it. However, the (original) iMac was significant in that it only had USB, with no "legacy" components. This essentially forced peripheral companies to sell USB devices (which had been very rare before the announcement of the iMac.

Counterfit
Oct 16, 2005, 04:30 PM
But almost nobody used it.....
I actually use mine! :eek:


Because I'm too lazy to walk into the next room to grab my 4-pin/6-pin cable for importing video :D