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MacRumors
Feb 19, 2013, 09:39 AM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/19/microsoft-surface-pro-hacked-to-run-os-x-maybe/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/02/surface_pro_stylus.jpg
Pureinfotech links (http://pureinfotech.com/2013/02/18/surface-pro-running-mountain-lion-osx-video/) (via Neowin (http://www.neowin.net/news/sacrilegious-surface-pro-running-os-x)) to a YouTube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icPMg_qkSRs) claiming to show a 'Hackintosh' Surface Pro running OS X Mountain Lion. The new Surface Pro tablet, which runs full Windows 8, launched earlier this month (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/05/first-reviews-of-microsoft-surface-pro-good-display-full-windows-8-compromised-experience/) starting at $899.

icPMg_qkSRs
Comments on the YouTube video are largely skeptical, suggesting that it's simply a remote desktop connection to a Mac. However, there's no technical reason why a Surface Pro shouldn't be able to run a hacked version of OS X, and Neowin notes that Wi-Fi reportedly is not working on the machine. One of the main challenges with Hackintosh installations tends to be with drivers for functions like Wi-Fi, so its absence may lend some support to the legitimacy of the claim.

Article Link: Microsoft Surface Pro Hacked to Run OS X...Maybe (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/02/19/microsoft-surface-pro-hacked-to-run-os-x-maybe/)



milo
Feb 19, 2013, 09:42 AM
Cool that someone pulled it off but I don't really see the practical appeal when you compare it with say a Macbook Air, in terms of price, battery life, etc.

chainprayer
Feb 19, 2013, 09:44 AM
Safari seems... sluggish

gumblecosby
Feb 19, 2013, 09:44 AM
If a computer is x86 and fairly modern it has a good chance of running OS X. This shouldn't be a surprise. Methods for running OS X have become simpler as time goes on. EFI emulation , DSDT's and decrypters such as fakesmc.kext make it less painful now compared to the Tiger days.

aarond12
Feb 19, 2013, 09:44 AM
Wow! Finally a reason to buy a Microsoft Surface! :D

Nightarchaon
Feb 19, 2013, 09:48 AM
I hope this is real, i can have the Hardware i want with the OS i want.

Apple, take a note, THIS is what the iPad Air could have been.

----------

Cool that someone pulled it off but I don't really see the practical appeal when you compare it with say a Macbook Air, in terms of price, battery life, etc.

If a macbook air had a touchscreen, and detachable keyboard/cover you'd be right.

Tankmaze
Feb 19, 2013, 09:49 AM
it does run a bit lag imo. could be using remote connection, but really whats the point in using this as OS X machine if it doesn't run smooth. and no wifi driver.

Nozuka
Feb 19, 2013, 09:51 AM
Does OSX even support a touchscreen? How did he make that work?

pacalis
Feb 19, 2013, 09:53 AM
MS Office on iPad is news. Not Apple guy bricks surface... :rolleyes:

Nunyabinez
Feb 19, 2013, 09:55 AM
No real advantage here because OSX is not a touch aware OS. I have a Hackintosh that I use at home and it works great, but I have had to do some kludgy things to make it work. Like a Creative USB external sound card, and I just finally found a good wi-fi card for it.

If and when Apple moves to touch as part of OSX, the surface might be interesting, but as it is now, who would want a Surface with OSX? A MBA would be a much better choice.

spyguy10709
Feb 19, 2013, 09:58 AM
There is, however a technical reason why it can't be done at the moment.

It has a secured bootloader that hasn't been cracked. ONLY Windows 8 is permitted to boot. There hasn't been a crack yet to the bootloader, so this is physically impossible!

Faker than fake.
(MAYBE it's OS X server running in a VM? totally possible. VMWare allows OSX server [not regular OS X] to be installed in a VM.)

Nunyabinez
Feb 19, 2013, 10:01 AM
I posted before watching the video and I call complete BS. Since he is touching the screen there has to be some intermediary software turning the touch into something that OSX understands. You could not just install OSX on a device with touch and have anything happen unless you had drivers (Kext files) for that device to turn it into the equivalent of mouse events. This is almost certainly a remote desktop pretending to be a hackintosh.

decimortis
Feb 19, 2013, 10:04 AM
The Apple logo on the bezel looks all blocky and stuff.

gpat
Feb 19, 2013, 10:05 AM
We all knew this would happen.

Rampage Dev
Feb 19, 2013, 10:22 AM
There is, however a technical reason why it can't be done at the moment.

It has a secured bootloader that hasn't been cracked. ONLY Windows 8 is permitted to boot. There hasn't been a crack yet to the bootloader, so this is physically impossible!

Faker than fake.
(MAYBE it's OS X server running in a VM? totally possible. VMWare allows OSX server [not regular OS X] to be installed in a VM.)

Its called Clover... know what you are talking about before posting. Thank you.

blueroom
Feb 19, 2013, 10:23 AM
I'd rather have a MacBook Air than a Frankenputer that sort of runs OSX.

Rampage Dev
Feb 19, 2013, 10:24 AM
I posted before watching the video and I call complete BS. Since he is touching the screen there has to be some intermediary software turning the touch into something that OSX understands. You could not just install OSX on a device with touch and have anything happen unless you had drivers (Kext files) for that device to turn it into the equivalent of mouse events. This is almost certainly a remote desktop pretending to be a hackintosh.

Apple does have a generic touch driver in Mac OS X. If this is legit then I would assume that that would be the driver in use.

aristotle
Feb 19, 2013, 10:32 AM
I hope this is real, i can have the Hardware i want with the OS i want.

Apple, take a note, THIS is what the iPad Air could have been.

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If a macbook air had a touchscreen, and detachable keyboard/cover you'd be right.
Are you out of your ever loving mind? That hardware has abysmal battery life and you cannot even use it with the keyboards in your "lap". It is a portable desktop as it requires a desktop in order to operate with a keyboard.
:rolleyes:

reden
Feb 19, 2013, 10:34 AM
I hope this is real, i can have the Hardware i want with the OS i want.

Apple, take a note, THIS is what the iPad Air could have been.

----------



If a macbook air had a touchscreen, and detachable keyboard/cover you'd be right.

I'm sure Apple is taking notes right now thanks to your comment, lol.

notjustjay
Feb 19, 2013, 10:37 AM
OS X is not a touch aware OS, no, but it is gesture aware, and if you look at features like Mission Control and Launchpad, you can't help but wonder if the next step will be to integrate touch.

I was really impressed with Surface when I had a look at it a while back. But, I think there are still issues. It is clearly not meant to be a touch-screen only interface; if you were to buy a Surface tablet without either the Touch Cover or the Type Cover, you're going to have a very hard time. To me, for regular apps, touching the screen can be a great, tactile, natural input method, but it must augment the keyboard/mouse/trackpad, not replace it. You're not going to get far using Photoshop or Excel using only the touch screen.

balamw
Feb 19, 2013, 10:46 AM
It has a secured bootloader that hasn't been cracked. ONLY Windows 8 is permitted to boot. There hasn't been a crack yet to the bootloader, so this is physically impossible!

Not so for the Surface Pro:

http://www.zdnet.com/why-did-microsoft-deliver-surface-rt-before-pro-and-other-pesky-questions-answered-7000010935/

"Like other Windows 8 machines, you can access BIOS settings and turn off secure boot, enabling you to load other OSes."

B

blueroom
Feb 19, 2013, 10:48 AM
Is it using a BIOS or EFI?

Rampage Dev
Feb 19, 2013, 10:50 AM
Is it using a BIOS or EFI?

Neither, UEFI BIOS.

Casiotone
Feb 19, 2013, 11:35 AM
Comments on the YouTube video are largely skeptical...

I'm really surprised that this is the case. ;)

Menneisyys2
Feb 19, 2013, 11:44 AM
If they do manage to make ML run flawlessly on the SP, I purchase one immediately.

Macrolido
Feb 19, 2013, 11:46 AM
Im sorry for that surface, ML will drain all its battery.

MartiNZ
Feb 19, 2013, 11:49 AM
Can it do Snow Leopard? Then we'd really be talking :D.

Cool that with the scarce supply the hacker types have managed to get Pros; gonna be quite a wait here I'd say. I'd be all about waiting for Haswell except one can't be sure Surface will get a rev b :(.

BvizioN
Feb 19, 2013, 11:53 AM
I hope this is real, i can have the Hardware i want with the OS i want.

Apple, take a note, THIS is what the iPad Air could have been.

----------



If a macbook air had a touchscreen, and detachable keyboard/cover you'd be right.

Touchscreen for an OS that is not designed for a touchscreen! Seriously i don't know what is it with people!!

Renzatic
Feb 19, 2013, 11:56 AM
I posted before watching the video and I call complete BS. Since he is touching the screen there has to be some intermediary software turning the touch into something that OSX understands.

Yeah. Wacom Drivers. OSX supports stylus and touch inputs through it same as Windows.

dukebound85
Feb 19, 2013, 11:58 AM
Does OSX even support a touchscreen? How did he make that work?

I don't think it depends on the os, but the hardware and resulting drivers.

Here's another take that has been around for a while
http://gizmodo.com/363137/axiotron-modbook-review-verdict-a-touchscreen-macbook-done-right

baryon
Feb 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
The Wacom pen system, with hovering, is pretty awesome! If Macs got that feature, that would kind of give everyone a Wacom Cintiq! :D

Nunyabinez
Feb 19, 2013, 12:10 PM
As was mentioned before (though challenged with out actual refutation) the surface has a locked down firmware to prevent just such abominations.

"The Microsoft Surface is a fairly attractive bit of tablet hardware, and as a result people have shown interest in running Linux on it. The immediate problem is that (like many ARM devices) it has a locked-down firmware that will only run signed binaries - unlike many other ARM devices, this is implemented using an existing standard (UEFI Secure Boot). Microsoft provide a signing service for UEFI binaries, so it's tempting to think that getting around this restriction would be as simple as taking an existing Linux bootloader, signing it and then booting. Unfortunately Microsoft's signing service signs binaries using a different key (the "Microsoft Windows UEFI Driver Publisher" key) to the one used to sign Windows, and the Surface doesn't carry that key. Booting Linux on these devices would involve finding a flaw in the firmware and using that to run arbitrary code."

Hence I renew my cry of "BS".

source: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/21189.html

Renzatic
Feb 19, 2013, 12:15 PM
Hence I renew my cry of "BS".

source: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/21189.html

The article's talking about the RT. The Pro doesn't have a locked bootloader (http://www.phonearena.com/news/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-can-run-Linux_id39712).

So this means that, yes, it could be easily hackintoshed.

dsteinert
Feb 19, 2013, 12:18 PM
I posted before watching the video and I call complete BS. Since he is touching the screen there has to be some intermediary software turning the touch into something that OSX understands. You could not just install OSX on a device with touch and have anything happen unless you had drivers (Kext files) for that device to turn it into the equivalent of mouse events. This is almost certainly a remote desktop pretending to be a hackintosh.


Who says he's not using a touch driver? Lilliput, eGalax and touchkit all have working touch input drivers for Mac OS X.

hvfsl
Feb 19, 2013, 12:21 PM
As was mentioned before (though challenged with out actual refutation) the surface has a locked down firmware to prevent just such abominations.

"The Microsoft Surface is a fairly attractive bit of tablet hardware, and as a result people have shown interest in running Linux on it. The immediate problem is that (like many ARM devices) it has a locked-down firmware that will only run signed binaries - unlike many other ARM devices, this is implemented using an existing standard (UEFI Secure Boot). Microsoft provide a signing service for UEFI binaries, so it's tempting to think that getting around this restriction would be as simple as taking an existing Linux bootloader, signing it and then booting. Unfortunately Microsoft's signing service signs binaries using a different key (the "Microsoft Windows UEFI Driver Publisher" key) to the one used to sign Windows, and the Surface doesn't carry that key. Booting Linux on these devices would involve finding a flaw in the firmware and using that to run arbitrary code."

Hence I renew my cry of "BS".

source: http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/21189.html
That quote is talking about the ARM based surface. We are talking about the intel based surface pro here, which isn't too different from a MacBook Air (CPU/chipset wise).

So this should all be possible and you can buy mac based tablets at the moment (look up modbook). But of course that doesn't mean this is real.

Renzatic
Feb 19, 2013, 12:22 PM
Who says he's not using a touch driver? Lilliput, eGalax and touchkit all have working touch input drivers for Mac OS X.

It's basically the same way the Axiotron gets stylus/touch support into OSX. Both of them use a Wacom digitizer, so all you have to do is install some drivers, and you're good to go.

Nunyabinez
Feb 19, 2013, 12:25 PM
The article's talking about the RT. The Pro doesn't have a locked bootloader (http://www.phonearena.com/news/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-can-run-Linux_id39712).

So this means that, yes, it could be easily hackintoshed.

I stand corrected. But I sill want to see it from a cold boot before I believe it and with an explanation of how they are enabling touch. Otherwise, it is more likely a VM or remote desktop.

dsteinert
Feb 19, 2013, 12:30 PM
Also take note that the owner posted a update in the comments.

"Donald Annis 3 days ago
No wifi driver, you'll notice the usb ethernet dongle network, pen input and sound working"

Why would he be connected to a ethernet dongle if he is running a remote connection to fake this?

Nunyabinez
Feb 19, 2013, 12:32 PM
That quote is talking about the ARM based surface. We are talking about the intel based surface pro here, which isn't too different from a MacBook Air (CPU/chipset wise).

So this should all be possible and you can buy mac based tablets at the moment (look up modbook). But of course that doesn't mean this is real.

True, but from what I understand, the modbook, replaces the screen with a touch screen that they have OSX drivers for. I find it hard to believe that existing drivers for a Surface screen are compatible with OSX. Or that one can simply substitute a third party driver and it works both with the Surface and OSX. I could be wrong, maybe MS used wacom drivers, but it all seems a little suspect. If I had done this, I would make a video showing it boot from nothing and explaining how I got it to work.

dsteinert
Feb 19, 2013, 12:32 PM
I stand corrected. But I sill want to see it from a cold boot before I believe it and with an explanation of how they are enabling touch. Otherwise, it is more likely a VM or remote desktop.

Getting touch to work is easy. Head on over to mp3car.com Many mac users including me are using a Mac with a lilliput LCD touch screen for a carputer.

Renzatic
Feb 19, 2013, 12:38 PM
I stand corrected. But I sill want to see it from a cold boot before I believe it and with an explanation of how they are enabling touch. Otherwise, it is more likely a VM or remote desktop.

The reason I don't think it's faked is because it wouldn't (or shouldn't) be all that hard to do. Despite it's size and form factor, the Surface Pro is a fairly standard ultrabook.

From the Macbook Air all the way down to the cheapest Acer, they're all using about the same hardware. There's some mixing and matching with certain components, but the CPU, GPU, and a good portion of the motherboards are all standard. Considering every ultrabook out right now has been hackintoshed, it wouldn't be too big of a leap to assume they could do the same with the Pro in short order.

rmwebs
Feb 19, 2013, 12:50 PM
I stand corrected. But I sill want to see it from a cold boot before I believe it and with an explanation of how they are enabling touch. Otherwise, it is more likely a VM or remote desktop.

Enabling touch isnt a hard thing to do. It's hardware based, thus a tap on the screen is considered by the OS to just be a mouse/pointing device. People have been running OS X on cheapo Netbooks with $15 touchscreen mods for a good few years now.

Menneisyys2
Feb 19, 2013, 01:22 PM
Cool that someone pulled it off but I don't really see the practical appeal when you compare it with say a Macbook Air, in terms of price, battery life, etc.

1, much higher screen resolution

2, definitely higher-quality screen tech (IPS vs standard LCD - some comparative pics between the iPad4's IPS screen and that of the Pro are at http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-vs-Apple-iPad-4_id3249 - as one can see, the Pro's screen quality is excellent.)

3, full, no-compromise Windows, as opposed to Apple's dumbing down Boot Camp by, among other things, not allowing NOT to use gfx acceleration to allow for better battery life / cooler operation. (This isn't that big a problem with Airs, which lack a dual-standard setup. Much bigger a problem on MBP's.)

4, touch screen AND Wacom pen support - much more to be used for (e.g., making notes in a PDF file with an, as opposed to capacitive pens, decent pen).

milo
Feb 19, 2013, 01:25 PM
If a macbook air had a touchscreen, and detachable keyboard/cover you'd be right.

If those were things that had actual benefit that outweighed the limitations of the device, you'd be right. And speaking of weight, once you add that keyboard/cover, it even weighs more than the Air.

tdtran1025
Feb 19, 2013, 02:05 PM
Ah, gumblecosby is a Hackintosher. WiFi is a small obstacle.

Aidan5806
Feb 19, 2013, 02:35 PM
And the Modbook Pro just lost all of its value, and the surface pro just gained its first reason to be purchased.

J-Mac618
Feb 19, 2013, 02:35 PM
I posted before watching the video and I call complete BS. Since he is touching the screen there has to be some intermediary software turning the touch into something that OSX understands. You could not just install OSX on a device with touch and have anything happen unless you had drivers (Kext files) for that device to turn it into the equivalent of mouse events. This is almost certainly a remote desktop pretending to be a hackintosh.


/agreed

ConCat
Feb 19, 2013, 02:46 PM
Neither, UEFI BIOS.

UEFI is not BIOS. It is UEFI. BIOS is what Windows PCs had prior to UEFI.

Gemütlichkeit
Feb 19, 2013, 03:03 PM
I hope this is real, i can have the Hardware i want with the OS i want.

Apple, take a note, THIS is what the iPad Air could have been.

Nightarchaon, take note. This tablet is a joke and the reviews are there to prove it.

joedemax
Feb 19, 2013, 03:25 PM
To be honest, this is probably totally legit. The Surface Pro is just a X86 machine with the same Intel chipset as the MacBook Air, So why wouldn't it work? It doesn't even take a "hacked" version of OS X, all you'd need is a USB drive with Chameleon on it and another with OS X, and you could simply boot into the installer. How he got the touch screen working is another question, but by no means is it impossible.

cosmicjoke
Feb 19, 2013, 03:26 PM
I'd rather have a MacBook Air than a Frankenputer that sort of runs OSX.

i'd rather have both... because i can :p

phillipduran
Feb 19, 2013, 03:40 PM
It's like a Surface that works! :D

----------

Its called Clover... know what you are talking about before posting. Thank you.

Having a bad day? :confused:

ChristianJapan
Feb 19, 2013, 03:41 PM
How he got the touch screen working is another question, but by no means is it impossible.

Could be that the system firmware has mouse simulator build in ? At least for single-finger gestures ? Would be nice to see if multi-touch works.
I also would like to see such a device native from :apple: and I'm sure they have some in their labs

Giuly
Feb 19, 2013, 03:47 PM
If a computer is x86 and fairly modern it has a good chance of running OS X. This shouldn't be a surprise. Methods for running OS X have become simpler as time goes on. EFI emulation , DSDT's and decrypters such as fakesmc.kext make it less painful now compared to the Tiger days.

dd if=some.iso of=/dev/diskX and logging in as deadmoo was really a burden. You needed an empty hard drive, 20 minutes of time and a Linux CD.

Really complex, lots of ins and outs.

Menneisyys2
Feb 19, 2013, 04:22 PM
And the Modbook Pro just lost all of its value, and the surface pro just gained its first reason to be purchased.

Exactly. The best of the two worlds - if the OS X compatibility is 100%, that is.

I WAS the one
Feb 19, 2013, 04:24 PM
Fake

gumblecosby
Feb 19, 2013, 05:20 PM
dd if=some.iso of=/dev/diskX and logging in as deadmoo was really a burden. You needed an empty hard drive, 20 minutes of time and a Linux CD.

Really complex, lots of ins and outs.

..and a paper clip in your VGA port to get your internal display working whilst keeping your laptop portable. Very straightforward. Things are better now.

Yamcha
Feb 19, 2013, 05:43 PM
Appears legit, the hardware is certainly supported by Mac OSX.

Fatalbert
Feb 19, 2013, 06:30 PM
With LaunchPad and other iOS stuff in Mac OS X, this wouldn't be that bad. This might be a reason to purchase one..... but not nearly enough to make me consider buying it. Hopefully MS will improve the feature.

Rampage Dev
Feb 19, 2013, 06:36 PM
I will have to find a retailer near me and take my live version of OS X on my external and boot into it and see what happens.

nick_elt
Feb 19, 2013, 07:02 PM
I always thought having osx on an ipad would be amazing but after using at work win8 laptop, going home to my ipad and macbook air is a dream andi can see every single reason why apple doesnt mix the two. You can keep osx in ur surface. I wont go anywhere near one. Thanks.

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Fake

Any substance to back it up or is that the extent of your contribution?

----------

It's like a Surface that works! :D[COLOR="#808080"]

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Having a bad day? :confused:

If you call a tablet with no wifi "working"

Macrolido
Feb 19, 2013, 09:04 PM
I´m sorry for that poor Surface, ML will drain all it´s battery...

WestonHarvey1
Feb 19, 2013, 11:04 PM
Finally we can see how lousy a touch screen OS X is!

gatearray
Feb 19, 2013, 11:40 PM
Im sorry for that surface, ML will drain all its battery.

I´m sorry for that poor Surface, ML will drain all it´s battery...


Posting it twice didn't make it any funnier.

Nightarchaon
Feb 20, 2013, 01:42 AM
Are you out of your ever loving mind? That hardware has abysmal battery life and you cannot even use it with the keyboards in your "lap". It is a portable desktop as it requires a desktop in order to operate with a keyboard.
:rolleyes:

its exactly what i want, the battery life is on par with the Air, and i want to use it as a desktop with keyboard, when not at a desk, i want to use it as a tablet..

Perfect device for me, better than carrying two devices, i could use it in tablet mode on the train to read books, watch movies etc, then, drop on desk, plug in USB mouse, and its ready to go as my PC.

----------

If those were things that had actual benefit that outweighed the limitations of the device, you'd be right. And speaking of weight, once you add that keyboard/cover, it even weighs more than the Air.

but still less than carrying the larger screen Air and an iPad which is what i do at the moment.

----------

Nightarchaon, take note. This tablet is a joke and the reviews are there to prove it.

hey, i also liked Betamax, Minidisc and HD-DvD :D

Giuly
Feb 20, 2013, 01:45 AM
..and a paper clip in your VGA port to get your internal display working whilst keeping your laptop portable. Very straightforward. Things are better now.
The real problem with the early images of Tiger was that they were so slow that you could calculate the pixels of the spinning beachball faster in your head than they were appearing on the screen.

JoEw
Feb 20, 2013, 01:56 AM
its exactly what i want, the battery life is on par with the Air, and i want to use it as a desktop with keyboard, when not at a desk, i want to use it as a tablet..

Perfect device for me, better than carrying two devices, i could use it in tablet mode on the train to read books, watch movies etc, then, drop on desk, plug in USB mouse, and its ready to go as my PC.

----------



but still less than carrying the larger screen Air and an iPad which is what i do at the moment.

----------



hey, i also liked Betamax, Minidisc and HD-DvD :D

Frankly the 2 experiences are 2 separate devices. Put them together you get well.. a Surface. It is half assed PC and half assed tablet experience in 1 device. According to reviews at least.

AppleScruff1
Feb 20, 2013, 02:28 AM
I will have to find a retailer near me and take my live version of OS X on my external and boot into it and see what happens.

Let us know how you make out.

SteveW928
Feb 20, 2013, 02:41 AM
Have you folks used tablets... like say an iPad?

This is is the kind of thing I also thought I wanted... before the iPad came along. I was hoping for a OSX tablet too. That, however, WOULD have been an absolute FAIL, had Apple gone that direction. That's why, short of corporate-lemming-types, the Surface Pro will be a fail as well.

Surface Pro is a transition device, at best, if Microsoft really understands where things are headed. Running OSX on it, would be a step backwards from where Apple folks already are. It's designed to bring Windows desktop & laptop users kicking and screaming into the future, as best Microsoft can currently realize it.

The regular Surface is Microsoft's future, along with desktop Windows... IF they understand the future and don't mess up.

aristotle
Feb 20, 2013, 02:41 AM
its exactly what i want, the battery life is on par with the Air, and i want to use it as a desktop with keyboard, when not at a desk, i want to use it as a tablet..

Perfect device for me, better than carrying two devices, i could use it in tablet mode on the train to read books, watch movies etc, then, drop on desk, plug in USB mouse, and its ready to go as my PC.

You must be using some sort of "new" math because less than 4 hours (probably around 3.5 hours running windows 8 and considerably less running a hacked OS X without proper drivers) is a lot less than 5 hours quoted for the 11" macbook air or 7 hours for the 13" macbook air.
:rolleyes:

hey, i also liked Betamax, Minidisc and HD-DvD :D
That explains a lot. :p

aristotle
Feb 20, 2013, 03:00 AM
1, much higher screen resolution

2, definitely higher-quality screen tech (IPS vs standard LCD - some comparative pics between the iPad4's IPS screen and that of the Pro are at http://www.phonearena.com/reviews/Microsoft-Surface-Pro-vs-Apple-iPad-4_id3249 - as one can see, the Pro's screen quality is excellent.)

1. In what universe is 1920 X 1080 a higher resolution than 2048 X 1536? In what world is PPI: 207.82 higher than PPI: 264?

2. I looked at the pictures and the iPad screen had more vivid colours. Are you trying to tell us that LCD is better than IPS panels found in the iPad, the Thunderbolt display, the new iMacs and the retina macbook pros?

How much is Microsoft paying to lie about specs?

3, full, no-compromise Windows, as opposed to Apple's dumbing down Boot Camp by, among other things, not allowing NOT to use gfx acceleration to allow for better battery life / cooler operation. (This isn't that big a problem with Airs, which lack a dual-standard setup. Much bigger a problem on MBP's.)

Ok, this proves that you have never used boot camp or you are deliberately trying to mislead people on here.

I have used boot camp to dual boot into windows on my iMac and before that on an early 2006 Macbook pro before I gave it to a relative.

Bootcamp is simply a source of drivers for windows and a partition magic type of partitioning tool for dividing your hard drive to include a windows partition. It is not virtualization or emulation. When you install windows onto that partition, it is not dumbed down. If something is not working, it is because of a lack of drivers. Don't expect windows 8 to work right away but Windows 7 should install just fine and run ok IF you install the drivers Apple provided in the boot camp wizard. You should have saved those drivers to a DVD or USB stick to use after you had installed windows 7.

Liar, liar pants on fire.
:rolleyes:

SteveW928
Feb 20, 2013, 03:11 AM
You must be using some sort of "new" math because less than 4 hours (probably around 3.5 hours running windows 8 and considerably less running a hacked OS X without proper drivers) is a lot less than 5 hours quoted for the 11" macbook air or 7 hours for the 13" macbook air.

The funny thing about that is that if I had to name my top two reasons for switching from my OSX laptop to iPad, they would be 1) Battery life, and 2) Instant on into a OS designed for mobility. The Surface pro, running OSX or Win8 is neither (or at least not any better than the Surface in that regard).


In what universe is 1920 X 1080 a higher resolution than 2048 X 1536? In what world is PPI: 207.82 higher than PPI: 264?


And, what was really funny was the talk about gfx acceleration. Aside from being challenged by mathematics and physics, I think this person doesn't have a very good grasp on computer hardware either. Hopefully he/she reads this before running out to buy Maya for their new Surface Pro. ;)

Giuly
Feb 20, 2013, 03:16 AM
Instant on into a OS designed for mobility

When you flip the screen up on MacBook that is factory-equipped with an SSD - what happens? I might have missed that BIOS screen and copying of the complete RAM from the SSD (which should be completed by the time you've completely flipped open the screen anyways)

It's not like the the Surface Pro does magic, it's just a Windows netbook with a digitizer, a detachable keyboard, an older-gen SSD (which, if you ask me, should've been made user-replaceable if they use mSATA anyways. But to Microsoft a kickstand that resembles a car door seems more valuable than the development of a 'push-in'n'pop-out' or caddy system for mSATA) and EFI.

They should've just developed something akin to OS X fat binaries, released in as ARM only, and tell you that 'If it won't be updated to support ARM, it is so old that the x86 compatibility layer will run it just fine'.

SteveW928
Feb 20, 2013, 03:33 AM
When you flip the screen up on MacBook that is factory-equipped with an SSD - what happens? I might have missed that BIOS screen and copying of the complete RAM from the SSD (which should be completed by the time you've completely flipped open the screen anyways)

Yes, they are quite fast now. I'll grant that. My wife has a Macbook Air. However, designed for mobile (at least tablet/phone-like mobile), it is not. Adding a touch-screen or pen interface won't solve that. For mobile, you need a completely 'other' OS and apps designed for it.

Again, the Surface Pro is a transition device to drag the geeks along to the Surface (the real future for M$, if they have one). I'm not saying the desktop will go away. It won't. But, it's best left to an other OS, designed for it.

Where Microsoft seems to be messing up, might be too tight of integration between them. Apple seems to be taking a better stance... so far anyway (if they don't too horribly butcher OSX, trying to make it iOS-like). Shared data is required, when possible. Shared general concepts are great too. But, UI-wise, much care must be taken, as they are two completely different environments.

Menneisyys2
Feb 20, 2013, 03:42 AM
And, what was really funny was the talk about gfx acceleration. Aside from being challenged by mathematics and physics, I think this person doesn't have a very good grasp on computer hardware either. Hopefully he/she reads this before running out to buy Maya for their new Surface Pro. ;)

If I were you, I'd do the homework before ridiculing and attacking others. For example, the question of obligatory use (it in no way can be disabled) of discrete gfx acceleration under Boot Camp, which can NOT be disabled, to the "delight" of everyone wanting as good battery life and silent operation as possible.

Some threads you should read (instead of just ridiculing others who know a lot more about OS X than you):

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=585949

http://www.doitscared.com/1466/setup-mac-os-x-10-8-mountain-lion-windows-7-boot-camp-and-shared-exfat-partition/

an excerpt from the latter article to give you some numbers (bold emphasizing by me):

"I recently got a mid 2012 Macbook Pro 15in laptop. It came with Mac OS X 10.7 Lion which I promptly upgraded to Mac OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. I then installed Windows 7 Boot Camp on it. I thought I had the perfect setup.

To my dismay, I found that while the Macbook lasted 6 hours or more while running Mac OS X, the Windows 7 lasted at best 3 hours. The reason for the short battery and heat (the laptop got very hot under Windows) was that under Windows, the discrete graphics card was active all the time! The Boot Camp 4.0 drivers for Windows did not support switching graphics between the integrated and discrete video cards, but instead used discrete all the time."

Finally, as far as (let me cite you) "being challenged by mathematics and physics, I think this person doesn't have a very good grasp on computer hardware either" is concerned, see my answers below, particularly on the Air's screen resolution, which is, unfortunately, still much-much lower than that of SP, let alone the iPad 3 / 4.



----------

1. In what universe is 1920 X 1080 a higher resolution than 2048 X 1536? In what world is PPI: 207.82 higher than PPI: 264?

So, does the Air have a 2048 X 1536 screen? REALLY? I compared the Surface Pro's screen to that of the MB Air as we've talking about them all the time.


2. I looked at the pictures and the iPad screen had more vivid colours. Are you trying to tell us that LCD is better than IPS panels found in the iPad, the Thunderbolt display, the new iMacs and the retina macbook pros?

1, The SP has an IPS panel, unlike the Air (or any MBP).

2, Let met cite the article I've linked to:

"Now this is where it gets interesting, since the two have stunning looking displays over most of the crop. Still, the more we look at them, the biggest differentiator is the slightly more detailed and stronger brightness output of the iPad 4’s 9.7-inch 1536 x 2048 IPS-LCD based Retina Display, which produces the higher pixel density if 264 ppi. Honestly, from a far distance away, it’s nearly indistinguishable to meticulously notice its finer details, but nonetheless, it’s evident upon closer inspection. Taking a gander at the Surface Pro’s 10.6-inch 1080 x 1920 IPS LCD display, it’s still attractive on many fronts, but it doesn’t have enough to steer us away from the Retina Display of the iPad 4."

As you can see, not even the article does state the iPad has better colors. And it's pretty futile to compare a non-IPS screen (that of the Air) to an IPS screen (that of the iPad or the SP) - IPS is WAAAAY better in every respect. (Except for the somewhat decreased battery life.)

How much is Microsoft paying to lie about specs?

How much Apple is paying you for spreading lies?

Ok, this proves that you have never used boot camp or you are deliberately trying to mislead people on here.

I did in my late 2009 17" MBP and suffered a lot from the discrete gfx (overheating, ridiculous battery life etc.). Have tried and read everything to find out how I could switch to integrated gfx. Let me know if you do know how I can switch to using integrated gfx on my MBP - I'll pay you a beer at least.

Bootcamp is simply a source of drivers for windows and a partition magic type of partitioning tool for dividing your hard drive to include a windows partition. It is not virtualization or emulation. When you install windows onto that partition, it is not dumbed down. If something is not working, it is because of a lack of drivers. Don't expect windows 8 to work right away but Windows 7 should install just fine and run ok IF you install the drivers Apple provided in the boot camp wizard. You should have saved those drivers to a DVD or USB stick to use after you had installed windows 7.

1. You can't disable discrete graphics under Windows 7 either. (Or under any Windows version.)

2. Apple culd have come up with a way to let users use integrated graphics - after all, Macs are all Apple's products (no need to develop drivers for thousands of different hardware models.) They failed to do that (too).
Liar, liar pants on fire.
:rolleyes:

If I'm a liar, then, you're absolutely incompetent and know absolutely nothing about OS X, spreading lies and are on Apple's payroll.

SteveW928
Feb 20, 2013, 03:47 AM
If I were you, I'd do the homework before ridiculing others.

I think you need to respond to aristotle, not me. I was, rightly, agreeing on your problematic screen rez and quality comments. I was also noting that if battery life is your concern, you aren't going to want a Surface Pro either. AND, I was making a kind of fun comment you might not want to head out and buy a copy of Maya for it. ;) If you want gfx acceleration, a netbook or franken-tablet isn't going to be a promising product for you.

I have little knowledge of bootcamp on laptops, other than it seems to generally work. I'll agree with you that what you seem to be referring to would annoy me if I were doing that.

----------


So, does the Air have a 2048 X 1536 screen? REALLY? I compared the Surface Pro's screen to that of the MB Air as we've talking about them all the time.


Ahh! I thought we were talking about tablets. I bet aristotle did too, as that's the iPad Retina rez.

Renzatic
Feb 20, 2013, 03:49 AM
AND, I was making a kind of fun comment you might not want to head out and buy a copy of Maya for it. ;) If you want gfx acceleration, a netbook or franken-tablet isn't going to be a promising product for you.

FYI, 3D programs tend to tax the CPU far more than the GPU. It wouldn't be the best place in the world for it, but you could use Maya to make model consisting of a million polys or so on an MBA or Pro.

You'd lose out on some of the nicer GLSL realtime rendering effects in the preview window. But not even the Macbook Pro can display those, so it's not exactly a huge knock against it.

SteveW928
Feb 20, 2013, 03:57 AM
FYI, 3D programs tend to tax the CPU far more than the GPU. It wouldn't be the best place in the world for it, but you could use Maya to make model consisting of a million polys or so on an MBA or Pro.

You'd lose out on some of the nicer GLSL realtime rendering effects in the preview window, but hell, last time I checked, not even the Macbook Pro can display those.

True enough! Yea, that would just be the beginning of the problems in trying to do such a thing. But, I think more generally... most desktop users are going to end up being frustrated by it. Which is why, in my initial comment, I asked WHY anyone would want to run OSX (or Windows desktop for that matter) on such a device.

If it's a tablet... run a tablet OS... do tablet things.

I LOVE my iPad and would not go back to using a laptop at this point, for the kind of work I do. For others, that isn't going to work. But, for those others, I'd STRONGLY recommend they just stick with a laptop. A tablet is (and should be) a different animal. Trying to use a tablet to be a desktop will only bring pain.

Renzatic
Feb 20, 2013, 04:19 AM
True enough! Yea, that would just be the beginning of the problems in trying to do such a thing. But, I think more generally... most desktop users are going to end up being frustrated by it. Which is why, in my initial comment, I asked WHY anyone would want to run OSX (or Windows desktop for that matter) on such a device.

If it's a tablet... run a tablet OS... do tablet things.

Yeah. It running a desktop oriented OS is one of the things I kinda hold against it. As far as the hardware goes, it's a brilliant little machine. Thin, sleek, light (for what it is), nice screen. If it had a more touchscreen oriented UI and a couple three more hours of battery life, I'd run out and grab one right this second.

Thing is, it's got just as many strengths as it does weaknesses. It's a tablet form factor, but it's best used as an ultrabook. It might be a well designed device, but functionally it's in a weird middle place between laptop and tablet that isn't a good fit for it's advantages.

Or to put it bluntly, it's good, but it needs more.

I LOVE my iPad and would not go back to using a laptop at this point, for the kind of work I do. For others, that isn't going to work. But, for those others, I'd STRONGLY recommend they just stick with a laptop. A tablet is (and should be) a different animal. Trying to use a tablet to be a desktop will only bring pain.

I love my iPad too. So much so that I want it to be able to do more with it.

I don't don't want to use a desktop OS on it. They're not the best fit for a tablet. But that doesn't mean I don't ever expect it to be as capable as one.

That's the thing about the Pro and the iPad. They're both equal halves of the one perfect tablet. The iPad has the interface and battery life, the Pro the power and flexibility (I think this is about the thousandth time I've said this around here). See, I wanna have my cake and eat it too. This is why I'm rooting for the Pro. It might not be perfect right now, but I like the direction it's heading. Same thing with the iPad. I don't think it's anywhere near perfect yet, but I like it for what it does well.

Winni
Feb 20, 2013, 04:22 AM
There is, however a technical reason why it can't be done at the moment.

It has a secured bootloader that hasn't been cracked. ONLY Windows 8 is permitted to boot. There hasn't been a crack yet to the bootloader, so this is physically impossible!

You don't need a "crack" to install a non-Windows system on a computer with UEFI. Several Linux distributions, e.g. 64-Bit Ubuntu 12.10, officially support the installation on UEFI systems with Secure Boot. So maybe these guys use a Linux boot loader to launch OS X. Or maybe they simply deactivated Secure Boot in the system's BIOS -- I don't know if that's an available option in the Surface Pro, but I have an Acer notebook here on my desk that actually has that feature.

Menneisyys2
Feb 20, 2013, 04:27 AM
I think you need to respond to aristotle, not me. I was, rightly, agreeing on your problematic screen rez and quality comments. I was also noting that if battery life is your concern, you aren't going to want a Surface Pro either.

Yup, X86-based tablets will never deliver as good battery life as a full-sized notebook. Nevertheless, the SP's battery life is still way better than that of my current x86 tablet (a venerable Wacom-based TC1100, which, because of the pen, I still love). And I'd only use it for tasks requiring running x86 stuff - for everything else, I have all (I teach iOS programming so I have all iDevices) iPad models ever released around (and use them all the time).

If you want gfx acceleration, a netbook or franken-tablet isn't going to be a promising product for you.

That (being forced to use discrete graphics) is what I want to avoid most of the time on my Mac. One of my (and a lot of other users') biggest problem with Apple is their not providing a way of booting into Boot Camp while not using discrete gfx card. The difference on my 17" 2009 MBP between the discrete and the integrated gfx is HUGE in both noise and battery drain. I need to rely on Parallels to do all my Windows-specific work, which introduces some 5-6% speed hit.


Ahh! I thought we were talking about tablets. I bet aristotle did too, as that's the iPad Retina rez.

No problem!

Nightarchaon
Feb 20, 2013, 04:34 AM
Frankly the 2 experiences are 2 separate devices. Put them together you get well.. a Surface. It is half assed PC and half assed tablet experience in 1 device. According to reviews at least.

Its as half assed as a Macbook Air, in terms of processing power, and as usable as an iPad or android tablet in tablet form.

The surface is a product somewhere between an iPad and a Macbook Air, and is perfectly suited for a market that wants both desktop apps when sat at a desk, and tablet apps when mobile, in a single device.

Blakjack
Feb 20, 2013, 08:47 AM
Apple, take a note, THIS is what the iPad Air could have been.

U Sick

spyguy10709
Feb 20, 2013, 09:01 AM
Its called Clover... know what you are talking about before posting. Thank you.

what's called Clover? You mean Clover Trail chips from Intel!? The chips that they didn't use?!?

Rampage Dev
Feb 20, 2013, 09:34 AM
what's called Clover? You mean Clover Trail chips from Intel!? The chips that they didn't use?!?

Clover is a bootloader for UEFI based systems to get around Microsofts Secure Boot Setting when enabled for Hacintosh. Does a lot more then just that but that is one of its leading features.

----------

Let us know how you make out.

I will. Local Best Buy said on the phone that they will get a display model next week... However the guy said that they were meant to get one this week. We will see.

JoEw
Feb 20, 2013, 12:14 PM
Its as half assed as a Macbook Air, in terms of processing power, and as usable as an iPad or android tablet in tablet form.

The surface is a product somewhere between an iPad and a Macbook Air, and is perfectly suited for a market that wants both desktop apps when sat at a desk, and tablet apps when mobile, in a single device.

Surface has a market for people who want a crappy tablet and crappy pc experience. But hey its in ONE device :eek: at least we agree there :)

Rogue.
Feb 20, 2013, 12:58 PM
Fake, just a remote desktop app!

Renzatic
Feb 20, 2013, 08:31 PM
Fake, just a remote desktop app!

FAKE! I didn't read the thread! OLOL!

Marx55
Feb 23, 2013, 03:14 AM
Apple should make a light (400 to 600 g) Mac, as small as possible and whih whatever form factor (clamshell, slider or tablet). Great for Keynote and PowerPoint presentations. The Mac in your pocket. Always.

retroneo
Feb 24, 2013, 06:46 PM
It seems there are no Mac drivers for the Marvell Avastar 350N in the Surface Pro - so it won't have any WiFi unless you plug an external WiFi dongle into the USB 3.0 port.

You might be able to use Bluetooth tethering to your iPhone instead however.

I WAS the one
Feb 27, 2013, 10:34 AM
Any substance to back it up or is that the extent of your contribution?

It is fake. VNC is written all over it

Renzatic
Feb 27, 2013, 08:39 PM
It is fake. VNC is written all over it

Why do you think it's fake? Because it's hard to do? Let me tell you, it's not. The Hackintosh scene can have a laptop rolling on OSX in a matter of hours.

There's nothing about the Surface that makes it any more difficult to hackintosh than other ultrabooks. It's far more likely to be a real thing than something faked through a virtual machine.

soundr
Feb 27, 2013, 08:57 PM
Safari seems... sluggish

yup

----------

It seems there are no Mac drivers for the Marvell Avastar 350N in the Surface Pro - so it won't have any WiFi unless you plug an external WiFi dongle into the USB 3.0 port.

You might be able to use Bluetooth tethering to your iPhone instead however.

good idea

----------

Apple should make a light (400 to 600 g) Mac, as small as possible and whih whatever form factor (clamshell, slider or tablet). Great for Keynote and PowerPoint presentations. The Mac in your pocket. Always.

meh

----------


That's the thing about the Pro and the iPad. They're both equal halves of the one perfect tablet. The iPad has the interface and battery life, the Pro the power and flexibility...

Good point

I WAS the one
Mar 5, 2013, 10:03 AM
Why do you think it's fake? Because it's hard to do?

Nope. Because is has been made with VNC!

Renzatic
Mar 5, 2013, 03:10 PM
Nope. Because is has been made with VNC!

You keep saying that, but how do you know?

MSUSpartan
Mar 5, 2013, 03:51 PM
The title should probably have been OS X hacked to run on Microsoft Surface Pro.

wbpluto
Mar 8, 2013, 12:50 PM
You don't need a "crack" to install a non-Windows system on a computer with UEFI. Several Linux distributions, e.g. 64-Bit Ubuntu 12.10, officially support the installation on UEFI systems with Secure Boot. So maybe these guys use a Linux boot loader to launch OS X. Or maybe they simply deactivated Secure Boot in the system's BIOS -- I don't know if that's an available option in the Surface Pro, but I have an Acer notebook here on my desk that actually has that feature.



I have a Surface Pro.
Yes, there is only 2 settings available in the BIOS screen of Surface Pro: SecureBoot and TPM.

iacovetti
Mar 23, 2013, 10:52 PM
Just finalized VM workstation 8 / Mac OSX 10.8.3 on my MS surface. Runs like a champ so far. But it full screens on surface into a fully usable Mac. So to all the negative responses that it can't be done. It has been done and will be done again...And yes the touchscreen functionality works, how? I don't know and I really don't care. So welcome to my world of touchscreen Mac OSX on a windows (surface pro) machine. Too bad all you Apple Fan boys don't have one, sure is nice =) LOL to all the naysayers, you were wrong....so so wrong indeed. Apple late to the game again, don't worry Samsung will eat you in the end....ROFLMAO!

spyguy10709
Mar 23, 2013, 11:01 PM
Just finalized VM workstation 8 / Mac OSX 10.8.3 on my MS surface. Runs like a champ so far. But it full screens on surface into a fully usable Mac. So to all the negative responses that it can't be done. It has been done and will be done again...And yes the touchscreen functionality works, how? I don't know and I really don't care. So welcome to my world of touchscreen Mac OSX on a windows (surface pro) machine. Too bad all you Apple Fan boys don't have one, sure is nice =) LOL to all the naysayers, you were wrong....so so wrong indeed. Apple late to the game again, don't worry Samsung will eat you in the end....ROFLMAO!

That's not "HACKED" that's VM. Exactly NOT like a full mac...

Oi...

cjmillsnun
Mar 24, 2013, 09:16 AM
1, The SP has an IPS panel, unlike the Air (or any MBP).



I'm only going to pick you up on this one point because I need to do some research into the other.

FAIL

cjmillsnun
Mar 24, 2013, 09:23 AM
It is fake. VNC is written all over it

I don't think it is.

I've made HackBooks by installing OS X on different laptops. It isn't difficult if you have some computer knowledge and access to the internet. There are many different forums available that will guide you through the process. It just requires some sort of boot loader to get Darwin (the base of the OS, based on BSD) to load. Then some modified kexts to get around the issue of it being non apple hardware and you're golden.

WiFi is the normal stumbling block and I can see in the video that a USB ethernet adaptor is being used.

It's a shame we don't see it boot, but I am 99% sure this is a genuine video.

Menneisyys2
Mar 24, 2013, 11:54 AM
I'm only going to pick you up on this one point because I need to do some research into the other.

FAIL

I only referred to non-Retina models, as are all(!) Airs. I've only compared the Surface to the Air in this thread. The Airs don't, I repeat, don't have an IPS screen.

(Unfortunately, for me, Retina MBP's are a no-go unless Apple releases a Retina version of the, sadly, discontinued 17" model with a 4k screen and an optical drive or place for installing a second hard drive. 15" models with one hard drive only can't fulfill my expectations.)

cjmillsnun
Mar 24, 2013, 12:32 PM
I only referred to non-Retina models, as are all(!) Airs. I've only compared the Surface to the Air in this thread. The Airs don't, I repeat, don't have an IPS screen.

(Unfortunately, for me, Retina MBP's are a no-go unless Apple releases a Retina version of the, sadly, discontinued 17" model with a 4k screen and an optical drive or place for installing a second hard drive. 15" models with one hard drive only can't fulfill my expectations.)

No you said ANY MBP. I boldfaced it to make the point. If you had said cMBP you would've been correct.

EDIT after doing some checking myself (setting up boot camp) you are correct on your other point.

EDIT2: you're going to be waiting for a very long time for that new 17".

I find the single SSD and lack of optical drive absolutely fine with my rMBP. Whilst it is being used outside of my home network I restrict myself to the project I am currently working on, and at home have everything available from NAS.

A 4k screen? Why? No other screen in the Apple range is anywhere near that. Nor do I believe there is any commonly available 4k screen at a reasonable price.

Menneisyys2
Mar 24, 2013, 01:22 PM
No you said ANY MBP. I boldfaced it to make the point. If you had said cMBP you would've been correct.

OK, you're right. (Nevertheless, the Surface has only been compared to the Air in this #, not to the significantly heavier rMBP's.)

EDIT after doing some checking myself (setting up boot camp) you are correct on your other point.

EDIT2: you're going to be waiting for a very long time for that new 17".

I find the single SSD and lack of optical drive absolutely fine with my rMBP. Whilst it is being used outside of my home network I restrict myself to the project I am currently working on, and at home have everything available from NAS.

I need to access my 1TB media files everywhere I take my 17" MBP to. Doing this would be very cumbersome with any external drive, let it be a portable 2.5" unit or a NAS. This is why I prefer dual-spin MB's.

A 4k screen? Why? No other screen in the Apple range is anywhere near that. Nor do I believe there is any commonly available 4k screen at a reasonable price.

1, 4K would be the Retina version of the Full HD 17" screens of the previous 17" MBP's. For development and video editing, I prefer using the internal screen (no need to have multiple hi-res, hi-quality monitors, quality external keyboards etc. everywhere I go - particularly not in my summer riverside cottage, where I have to mainly operate on battery power), where screen estate does count. I couldn't work on a smaller screen with as high efficiency as on a Full HD-equivalent one.

2, Yup, I know 4K screens are (still) pretty expensive. Nevertheless, they will surely go down in price. Too bad Apple dropped the 17" line...

tekboi
Mar 25, 2013, 11:30 PM
I'm skeptical of the touch & stylus capabilities w/ this thing. Plus, it's not like there are many apps for ML designed to support a stylus so...

FirasN
Apr 14, 2013, 02:55 AM
finally, I like windows surface its amazing