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celebi23
Oct 17, 2005, 12:02 PM
I started a petition for Apple to restore full Firewire support in the next iPod video revision. People may think that this won't work BUT, there was a petition for Digital Booklets in iTunes and now almost every album has one. I'm somewhat lucky as my iBook G4 was the first one to have USB 2.0 yet, many of my friends who have macs have the model before mine and only have USB 1.1

http://www.petitiononline.com/ab1987/

Some stats about Firewire being faster and more reliable than USB 2.0:

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/usb20vsfirewire/

http://www.usb-ware.com/firewire-vs-usb.htm

Some other sites I posted this at:

[url]http://www.spymac.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=198167[/
url]

http://forums.ilounge.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123014&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Already have 42 signatures



moot
Oct 17, 2005, 12:13 PM
I hope you succeed and don't let all the doubters put you off.

Although your analogy isn't very good as there is a huge difference between a software change and a hardware one that was based on design and monetary concerns.

Anyway, good luck

BurtonCCC
Oct 17, 2005, 12:14 PM
I don't care. But I wish you all the best of luck. Go get 'em.

Daniel

camomac
Oct 17, 2005, 12:29 PM
just signed it, i mean what can it hurt.
if everybody signs this it will only give people more choices,
and that can't be such a bad thing.

i say go for it!

Koodauw
Oct 17, 2005, 12:52 PM
An online petition huh? (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=websense)

Lacero
Oct 17, 2005, 12:55 PM
Firewire component costs, let's say a dollar. If Apple is going to be selling 25 million iPods next year, that's $25,000,000 in their pockets. And 95% of iPod sales will go to PC users who do not care for FW.

My prediction: This firewire petition is pointless.

MacDawg
Oct 17, 2005, 12:57 PM
Firewire component costs, let's say a dollar. If Apple is going to be selling 25 million iPods next year, that's $25,000,000 in their pockets. And 95% of iPod sales will go to PC users who do not care for FW.

My prediction: This firewire petition is pointless.

Backward compatibility with hardware and software always ends at some point.

Woof, Woof Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif

eva01
Oct 17, 2005, 12:59 PM
when do petitions ever work online?

solvs
Oct 17, 2005, 01:00 PM
I've heard the new PortalPlayer Apple uses does not support FW natively. They'd have to add a separate chip. It's sad and all for those with older Macs, but that's technology for you. You can still buy one of the older models and a fw cable, or just be stuck with slow d/l's.

Josh396
Oct 17, 2005, 01:02 PM
when do petitions ever work online?
Never.

devman
Oct 17, 2005, 01:08 PM
Firewire component costs, let's say a dollar. If Apple is going to be selling 25 million iPods next year, that's $25,000,000 in their pockets. And 95% of iPod sales will go to PC users who do not care for FW.

My prediction: This firewire petition is pointless.

Well said. I agree entirely. And the cost is more than the cost of the FW controller. There's the extra hits on design, testing, docs, support, etc.

Loge
Oct 17, 2005, 02:10 PM
As has been pointed out in other threads, "good enough" usually beats "superior". At least there is the the decent recording capability in the new iPods, once appropriate accessories appear.

ipacmm
Oct 17, 2005, 02:30 PM
Never.

I agree, I really don't see Apple going back to firewire because a lot of people don't use it if they have a Windows computer and Apple is always trying to cut back on what comes with the iPod and accessories.

wPod
Oct 17, 2005, 02:32 PM
nice idea. . . i signed . . . but you have to think, 90 some od percent of iPod sales are to PC users. so of the 10 percent of mac users that are left i think us non-USB2 people are a very small portion of that. whic i hate b/c i am not NOT buying a video iPod (though i wanted to when they were announced, until i discovered the firewire not working) so hopefull, maybe this will work and apple will listen to .1% of the customers, or we will all have to wait for our next computer upgrades to get USB 2 and the video iPod.


heh. .. i think we all need to go buy a new iPod video. . . then simultaneously all call in and complain that our iPods don't work with firewire, and it takes about 10 hours to load with USB 1 . . . then maybe they will send us new iPods that work. . . just like the iPod nano and the screen!!! heh!

fklehman
Oct 17, 2005, 03:02 PM
Backward compatibility with hardware and software always ends at some point.

Woof, Woof Dawg http://homepage.mac.com/k.j.vinson/pawprint.gif


Yeah except here backward compatibility should render USB 2.0 obsolete, not the other way around. I don't care which actually came first, there's no doubt Firewire 400 is the better standard. I've never seen USB 2.0 top out at 480, no way. It never even tops 400. Firewire 400 kicks its ass. I only wish you could get Firewire 400/800 flash drives, that would rock. We're getting with hosed with USB 2.0 because its part of the Intel/standards convergence, which is a good enough argument, but let's just be clear about what we're losing--we're losing the better of the two standards. Firewire 400 may be "older," but it at least lived up to its potential and continues to do so. USB 2.0 never did, and it doesn't look as if it will anytime soon.

madmaxmedia
Oct 17, 2005, 03:30 PM
Yeah except here backward compatibility should render USB 2.0 obsolete, not the other way around. I don't care which actually came first, there's no doubt Firewire 400 is the better standard. I've never seen USB 2.0 top out at 480, no way. It never even tops 400. Firewire 400 kicks its ass. I only wish you could get Firewire 400/800 flash drives, that would rock. We're getting with hosed with USB 2.0 because its part of the Intel/standards convergence, which is a good enough argument, but let's just be clear about what we're losing--we're losing the better of the two standards. Firewire 400 may be "older," but it at least lived up to its potential and continues to do so. USB 2.0 never did, and it doesn't look as if it will anytime soon.

Do you see signficant differences in transferring to an iPod between USB and Firewire? Whatever differences in the 2 formats, may not be relevant for iPods if other aspects are rate-limiting.

I have never timed it, but it has always seemed about the same to me. but that's just my perceptual impression (they're both really fast), in reality it could be 30-50% difference and I might not know.

I really wish Apple had continued Firewire support, just for older Macs with USB 1. If it was $1 to keep it, I am sure they would have done it as there is a negative effect as well due to some dissatisfied customers. However, someone pointed out that the new PortalPlayer chips may not support Firewire. That seems like the most likely scenario to me.

zap2
Oct 17, 2005, 03:37 PM
I spend like 299 399 200 somewere in that range on iPod i think apple can put FW on it for me( they put it on there computers) this is one of the main reason i fear giving my 4g iPod up ,with putting TV and Music Vidoes on it we need FW even more



They can raise the price by a dollar!!
Next time in at my Apple store im talking about this!

Sun Baked
Oct 17, 2005, 03:47 PM
when do petitions ever work online?Sort of sucks that the Keira Knightley breast implant petition failed. :(

As some companies have stated, they take these on-line petitions so seriously -- they may count them as a single complaint/letter.

fklehman
Oct 17, 2005, 04:11 PM
Do you see signficant differences in transferring to an iPod between USB and Firewire? Whatever differences in the 2 formats, may not be relevant for iPods if other aspects are rate-limiting.

I have never timed it, but it has always seemed about the same to me. but that's just my perceptual impression (they're both really fast), in reality it could be 30-50% difference and I might not know.

I really wish Apple had continued Firewire support, just for older Macs with USB 1. If it was $1 to keep it, I am sure they would have done it as there is a negative effect as well due to some dissatisfied customers. However, someone pointed out that the new PortalPlayer chips may not support Firewire. That seems like the most likely scenario to me.

Not just in iPod transfers, everywhere. I have an external HDD with Firewire 400 and USB 2.0 interfaces, and the Firewire always kicks the USB2's ass. (using it w/ a July 2005 iBook, for ref). I don't have any other components using either the Firewire or USB bus when I'm doing it either, just a bluetooth mouse running off the internal module and a USB printer (usually not even turned on). So it's not like the USB2 bus is saturated or anything. The standard just blows compared to Firewire, is the simple explanation. I understand Apple's motivations; I can appreciate that costs, miniaturization and convergence dictate that USB2 emerge triumphant; but the fact that it has to happen sucks big time. Feels like Apple v. Microsoft, VHS v. Beta all over again. Good enough wins over superior. Sucks.

TheMonarch
Oct 17, 2005, 04:14 PM
The sad part is that Apple used USB 1.1 until, what? Late 2003? Thats STUPID!. So a 2 year old computer gives your more pathetic speeds than a 5 year old windows computer? The least apple could do is give users the choice of using a superior port, since they decided to throw a hissy fit over USB 2.0



These aren't "Old" Macs we're talking about!

fklehman
Oct 17, 2005, 04:15 PM
OT but a P.S. to another post: is there still time to sign the Keira Knightley petition? She's at the top of my "10 freebies list" my wife and I keep with each other (if you ever have the chance to make it with that celeb you're allowed, etc.). Can't resist those fit british birds... :D

fklehman
Oct 17, 2005, 04:24 PM
Does USB2 even charge an iPod as quickly as Firewire400? I never got in the habit of doing anything iPod-related over USB2 on my iBook (my Pismo is only USB 1.1), but my reflex/gut call would be that it probably doesn't charge as fast. I never studied the power transmission profiles or anything though. I seem to remember the instructions to my iPod 60GB photo (purchased in Jan. 2005) saying that you can actually lose USB power to the iPod during large file transfers/synching and run the battery down if you're not paying attention. Is tht something that got fixed somehow, or is the fully powered bus still another point in Firewire 400's favor?

Cfg5
Oct 17, 2005, 04:33 PM
I signed it...I guess my future iPod will sync via USB 1.1. How well does it charge through 1.1 vs. 2.0/firewire?

TheMonarch
Oct 17, 2005, 04:35 PM
I signed it...I guess my future iPod will sync via USB 1.1. How well does it charge through 1.1 vs. 2.0/firewire?


Firewire is much, much faster at charging.

Cfg5
Oct 17, 2005, 04:49 PM
That's what I thought. :(

camomac
Oct 17, 2005, 05:37 PM
i really hope apple isn't doing this because of 95% of ipod sales are going to peecee users. (% based on what i have heard on this board, not my own figure) because without the 5% mac users there would be no ipod.

get real apple- support your own loyal customer base first.

camomac
Oct 17, 2005, 05:45 PM
Firewire component costs, let's say a dollar. If Apple is going to be selling 25 million iPods next year, that's $25,000,000 in their pockets. And 95% of iPod sales will go to PC users who do not care for FW.

My prediction: This firewire petition is pointless.

it can't cost all that much more to implement. correct me if i am wrong, but look at all the revenue they will lose because people will not want to upgrade to 5g ipods because it doesn't have firewire.

my prediction: if nobody voices their opinions about this issue, then it will definately never get noticed.
sign the petition, if you even care about how the 5% will get treated in the future.

Tequila Grandma
Oct 17, 2005, 06:17 PM
Never.
Not quite true. I seem to remember that huge online petition to have Wonka released in widescreen after Warner's initial p+s DVD release working pretty well.

zap2
Oct 17, 2005, 06:21 PM
so what does a iMac G4 1.25ghz 17'' screen have( my bro has one)

USB 2 or USB 1.1??

Betateam
Oct 17, 2005, 08:19 PM
An online petition huh? (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=websense)

Maddoxx RULES!
Great post.

quayzar
Oct 20, 2005, 11:58 PM
I have been a Mac user for some time and because of that I have a g4 that only has USB 1.0. The fact that these new Video iPods don't have firewire support frankly screws my plans on buying one. I can't afford to buy a new computer just for that thing but I would have bought the video iPod even if I had to buy the firewire cable. But more than just that I often use my current 2nd Gen 20gb model as a boot disk for Linux (though I am using that less and less with Tiger's Magic installed on my machine.) Anyway without firewire support my dreams of owning a video iPod are deader than the Norton.

Before I leave I would just like to commend everyone who has signed the petition with me. USB 2.0 must end now. Oh and while we are at it lets getting them to add firewire 800 support too I can't use it but it would be wicked fast. (Pipe dream I know but hey come on!!!)

watcher2001
Oct 21, 2005, 12:41 AM
Firewire is much, much faster at charging.

Someone else posted that you can still charge via firewire if you had the cable.. Is this not true? Oh BTW I signed your petition. Not really cause I need it, just to be helpful.

TheMonarch
Oct 21, 2005, 12:53 AM
Someone else posted that you can still charge via firewire if you had the cable.. Is this not true? Oh BTW I signed your petition. Not really cause I need it, just to be helpful.


Yeah, I knew you could still charge with firewire. But using USB actually DRAINS the iPod's battery during transfers. So anytime you want to sync, the iPod is running off it's own juice... Imagine if you had to sync a couple of CDs you just bought... Imagine syncing a few CDs that you just bought with USB 1.1! Thats probably what bothers me the most.

celebi23
Oct 22, 2005, 05:51 PM
138 Total Signatures so far

NicP
Oct 22, 2005, 10:15 PM
it can't cost all that much more to implement. correct me if i am wrong, but look at all the revenue they will lose because people will not want to upgrade to 5g ipods because it doesn't have firewire.

my prediction: if nobody voices their opinions about this issue, then it will definately never get noticed.
sign the petition, if you even care about how the 5% will get treated in the future.

I hate to rain on your parade but i think this petition is useless. There are well over 5000 people who have signed a petition wanting gapless playback which should be a relativley trivial software solution to implement (especially if the use the bookmarks they already offer in podcasts).

I dont think that a few hundred people are going to make apple re-implement firewire which would take hardware major hardware changes and increase the cost to manufacture.

Sol
Oct 22, 2005, 10:46 PM
I dont think that a few hundred people are going to make apple re-implement firewire which would take hardware major hardware changes and increase the cost to manufacture.

With that attitude would anyone bother to vote on elections? It may be a hundred people now but that number is getting bigger all the time. The people who signed the petition now represent a lot more users who want this feature back in the iPod.

Lacero
Oct 22, 2005, 10:47 PM
138 Total Signatures so far
138 vs 6,500,000 and counting...

good luck to the petitioners.

matticus008
Oct 22, 2005, 11:01 PM
Before I leave I would just like to commend everyone who has signed the petition with me. USB 2.0 must end now. Oh and while we are at it lets getting them to add firewire 800 support too I can't use it but it would be wicked fast. (Pipe dream I know but hey come on!!!)
USB 2.0 must end now? So you want the tiniest flash drives to be double or triple their current size? You want to kiss mice and keyboards goodbye? You think printers and scanners and digital cameras are overrated? Maybe you don't like syncing with cell phones and PDAs. These are all things that would NEVER adopt Firewire.

And adding Firewire 800 wouldn't make the iPod any faster than it is with FW400. The iPods hard drive isn't fast enough to feed that data.

it can't cost all that much more to implement. correct me if i am wrong, but look at all the revenue they will lose because people will not want to upgrade to 5g ipods because it doesn't have firewire.
Hmmm....what revenue are they losing to those people? Almost nothing. A fraction of 1% of the market is on your side, buddy. Meanwhile, 90%+ would not buy if it was Firewire-only.


my prediction: if nobody voices their opinions about this issue, then it will definately never get noticed.
sign the petition, if you even care about how the 5% will get treated in the future.
It's not 5%. It's at most 1%. And nothing in the world makes 100% of people happy. Engineers, designers, and consumers HAVE voiced their opinion on the matter. And that, my friend, is WHY Firewire is gone.

Like Lacero said. It's 100-odd against millions and counting.

Sun Baked
Oct 22, 2005, 11:12 PM
If Apple wants to grow to the next level, they have to cater to Windows users and offer them some of the great Apple products.

The Windows market can make Apple a lot more money than Mac users can.

Innovation means leaving the past behind, in this case it means buying a newer computer with USB2.

In the case of the dual core PowerMac -- it means buying all new PCI Express cards.

For the thousands that get pissed at Apple because they cannot use the latest widget -- there are a lot more Windows user willing to take their place an buy the latest USB2 widget.

---

Basically, sometimes progress will cost you money and obsolete equipment on you desk newer than your underwear.

Whyren
Oct 22, 2005, 11:44 PM
Wouldn't it be more effective if everyone who complains about these things on Apple Discussions or signs an online petition would take take the time to send in their complaint/desire to Apple's feedback (http://www.apple.com/feedback)?

(ideally using language more subtle and helpful than "USB is teh sukcs! Firewier or die!")

NicP
Oct 23, 2005, 12:36 AM
With that attitude would anyone bother to vote on elections? It may be a hundred people now but that number is getting bigger all the time. The people who signed the petition now represent a lot more users who want this feature back in the iPod.

so do the people who want gapless, and the gapless problem has been around ever since the introduction of the ipod and they still havent done anything about it.

I have no idea how this relates to elections, when you vote your 1 vote gets counted. When you sign a petition theres a good possibility that whoever the petition is aimed at will ignore it alltogether, they arent sitting there in their office going when the petition gets 5000 signitures we will add the feature.

If you want to let apple know you want a feature tell them! online petitions are pretty useless, theres no guarantee they will take it seriously or even see it for that matter!

edit: living in australia you should know that voting is compulsory anyway ;)

celebi23
Oct 24, 2005, 02:32 PM
379 Total Signatures so far. Please fill out the iPod feedback form in conjunction with signing the petition. http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html

jpgodlew
Oct 24, 2005, 02:45 PM
I am all for firewire support being included again, but one must think about how that affects the design of the iPod and how thin apple is able to make it.

Other than that...firewire all the way.