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MacRumors
Mar 21, 2013, 12:37 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/21/a-look-at-american-airlines-ipad-electronic-flight-bag/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/03/american.jpgAOL travel website Gadling takes a look (http://www.gadling.com/2013/03/20/cockpit-chronicles-the-ipad-flight-bag-is-finally-here-video/) at the American Airlines iPad Electronic Flight Bag that received initial FAA approval (http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/13/american-airlines-receives-faa-approval-for-ipads-in-cockpit/) more than a year ago.

The airline's pilots can replace 40 pounds of company manuals and maps with a pair of iPads (one for each pilot), along with a long-life battery (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00449I41K) to keep the iPads powered for 24 hours.

Because both pilots are carrying iPads with backup batteries, the FAA feels this is as redundant as paper manuals.
So far American has approval for the 777, 737, MD-80 and is just awaiting approval for the 757/767 fleet. Hopefully, this will be just in time for my return to that airplane, as once you use this setup, you won't want to go back to the paper.

To get that approval, American had to have the iPad tested in a hypobaric chamber to simulate how the device would handle during a rapid decompression. They also had to arrange for mount testing with the FAA, which is ironic since our manuals weigh far more than the iPad and aren't secured in place. Many takeoffs have resulted in a book or two sliding off the side table and onto the floor.yWzIPVgh1Xg

Article Link: A Look at American Airlines' iPad Electronic Flight Bag (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/21/a-look-at-american-airlines-ipad-electronic-flight-bag/)



b3thomso
Mar 21, 2013, 12:43 PM
I am a private jet pilot and we have been approved and have been using the iPad alone for about a year now. This is old news.

SvenSvenson
Mar 21, 2013, 12:50 PM
I am a private jet pilot and we have been approved and have been using the iPad alone for about a year now. This is old news.

This isn't news, old or otherwise. It's an article about the impact of something that was news.

nylonsteel
Mar 21, 2013, 12:56 PM
re: original article
cool usage
cool video

Moyank24
Mar 21, 2013, 01:01 PM
I am a private jet pilot and we have been approved and have been using the iPad alone for about a year now. This is old news.

I am not a private jet pilot, so it's cool to see something I've read about in action.

notabadname
Mar 21, 2013, 01:06 PM
I am a private jet pilot and we have been approved and have been using the iPad alone for about a year now. This is old news.

As a private pilot, you apparently don't know much about the Airline industry and what an effort it has taken to get approval for this in Part 121 Carrier Operations. There is a reason this is reported as a "first". I am a pilot for Delta Air Lines, and we are in the process of getting the same approval. It has been "in test" with the FAA for over 18 months. Getting a process like this approved, across a fleet of 700 aircraft, of various types and configurations, and trained to a pilot group of 12,000 pilots is very significant.

needfx
Mar 21, 2013, 01:26 PM
pilot's facial expression at the end says it all

Gav2k
Mar 21, 2013, 01:26 PM
To get that approval, American had to have the iPad tested in a hypobaric chamber to simulate how the device would handle during a rapid decompression. They also had to arrange for mount testing with the FAA, which is ironic since our manuals weigh far more than the iPad and aren't secured in place. Many takeoffs have resulted in a book or two sliding off the side table and onto the floor.

Hmm a book does not smash if it falls. Silly silly person!

92jlee
Mar 21, 2013, 01:35 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

Squilly
Mar 21, 2013, 01:47 PM
I thought you didn't get reception that high? :confused:
Unless the plane has WiFi...

needfx
Mar 21, 2013, 01:55 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

well, they are more environmentally friendly paper-wise & fuel wise, I have stumbled upon their annual weight/fuel ratio in the past.

real trouble is when a power issue drops in for a visit

a better solution would be if these were implemented on all planes through a centralised database accessed on a per flight demand. can't be that difficult, but yet we saw an article not a week ago that ipads are cheaper, lighter & easier to implement and deploy for on-board entertainment, why shouldn't it be for flight plans too?

GregAndonian
Mar 21, 2013, 02:05 PM
This seems really cool and all, but it seems strange to me that they always tell passengers to turn off their electronic devices during takeoff and landing, but now it's ok to use iPads in the cockpit?? :confused:

techpr
Mar 21, 2013, 02:12 PM
This seems really cool and all, but it seems strange to me that they always tell passengers to turn off their electronic devices during takeoff and landing, but now it's ok to use iPads in the cockpit?? :confused:

Ironic for the same device.

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Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

40 pounds ls a lot in Aviation terms. the iPad is here to stay for long time, don't worry.

viggen61
Mar 21, 2013, 02:14 PM
I thought you didn't get reception that high? :confused:
Unless the plane has WiFi...

All the flight data and manuals would be loaded onto the iPads as either custom apps or PDFs, all but eliminating the need for any connection. Get updates when on the ground, just like with the paper ones...

http://cdn.macrumors.com/vb/images/smilies/blackapple.gifhttp://cdn.macrumors.com/vb/images/smilies/blackapple.gif

KdParker
Mar 21, 2013, 02:28 PM
The iPads are a good idea, but wouldn't it be prudent to keep at least one hard copy of the manual onboard?

chainprayer
Mar 21, 2013, 02:35 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

Because when a new iPad line comes out all others before it are unusable....

It's not like it will be used to play the latest gaming apps (well, hopefully)

fedup flyer
Mar 21, 2013, 02:45 PM
The iPads are a good idea, but wouldn't it be prudent to keep at least one hard copy of the manual onboard?

There has to be.
We have built in EFBs where I work and one full set of paper manuals are required by the Feds.
It is nice not to have to tote around all of manuals plus not having to do revisions is a HUGE bonus.

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I am a pilot for Delta Air Lines, and we are in the process of getting the same approval. .

Any clue as to what software they are using?
Is it the Jepp or something proprietary?
I am still not sold on the Jepp "Pro" app as I had had to many problems with it.

notabadname
Mar 21, 2013, 02:46 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

Yes, it is a fantastic idea. The books get revised and updated every two weeks. If an iPad were updated every two years, it would still be a massive improvement and savings. Not to mention much more effective to use in the cockpit than a paper manual. Additionally, the books weigh about 80 lbs total. So the iPads pay for themselves in fuel savings. They aren't being used to play games, they are displaying PDF files. They don't have to upgraded with the same regularity as devices running more aggressive software. But they would save money, even if replaced annually.

iPhysicist
Mar 21, 2013, 02:59 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

Most recent tools in chip production (not Crunchips) run Win XP on Pentium IIIs. So put that in perspective. Don't think you can play angry birds with these iPads or do other things than access the flight books, maps...
It is cool! And there are two for redundancy.

pezj
Mar 21, 2013, 03:03 PM
What will this do to Dunder Mifflin's stock price?

shurcooL
Mar 21, 2013, 03:12 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.
You're right, after a new generation iPad is released, the older ones will suddenly no longer be able to display PDFs. :rolleyes:

devilbond
Mar 21, 2013, 03:25 PM
Unfortunately the stewards/stewardesses will ask them to kindly switch their iPads off during take-off and landing.

hodaka
Mar 21, 2013, 03:28 PM
You're right, after a new generation iPad is released, the older ones will suddenly no longer be able to display PDFs. :rolleyes:

Fail.
My 12 YO daughter has a first-gen iPad that does everything she wants it to. Games, Netflix, even PDFs and EPUBs. And we are currently on the fourth gen of the iPad - pretty good lifespan for this type of device, really. No, you can't load the latest iOS on it, but it still functions fine for a connected-happy pre-teen.

shurcooL
Mar 21, 2013, 03:36 PM
Fail.
My 12 YO daughter has a first-gen iPad that does everything she wants it to. Games, Netflix, even PDFs and EPUBs. And we are currently on the fourth gen of the iPad - pretty good lifespan for this type of device, really. No, you can't load the latest iOS on it, but it still functions fine for a connected-happy pre-teen.
I think you missed the part where I was sarcastic and wanted to demonstrate the same thing you pointed out.

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Unfortunately the stewards/stewardesses will ask them to kindly switch their iPads off during take-off and landing.
Funny, but I don't think they need them during take off and landing anyway. It's during flights if something has to be looked up. They prepare for take off and landing and then do things off the top of their head + intstruments, there's no time to look at a book when you have to be looking through the window/at the instruments. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

Gasu E.
Mar 21, 2013, 03:57 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

True, if they end up crash-landing on an uncharted island that's shielded from detection by a mysterious force field, they will be stuck with obsolete technology, and possibly even run out of power. Under other circumstances, the technology will get upgraded, routinely, as needed.

b3thomso
Mar 21, 2013, 04:19 PM
As a private pilot, you apparently don't know much about the Airline industry and what an effort it has taken to get approval for this in Part 121 Carrier Operations. There is a reason this is reported as a "first". I am a pilot for Delta Air Lines, and we are in the process of getting the same approval. It has been "in test" with the FAA for over 18 months. Getting a process like this approved, across a fleet of 700 aircraft, of various types and configurations, and trained to a pilot group of 12,000 pilots is very significant.

Ohhh cmon. Dont tell me that this is some significant thing. Do the feds really need to give 121 carriers all this grief with approval? The iPad has been tested a thousand times for rapid decompression. It passes with flying colors. 18 months is insane! We told the feds we wanted approval. We used the iPads for 6 months and noted very few problems we had. We got our Op Spec shortly after and dumped all of our paper books. The rest of you dont really know what that is, but the feds finally getting around to approving iPads for airlines boggles my mind. They should be in every cockpit.

JDawg76
Mar 21, 2013, 04:38 PM
At a quick glance, the logo looks like a pair of 3D glasses :)

hodaka
Mar 21, 2013, 04:57 PM
I think you missed the part where I was sarcastic and wanted to demonstrate the same thing you pointed out.[COLOR="#808080"]


You are correct. I missed that. Carry on with common sense, good fellow. :D

scott4long
Mar 21, 2013, 05:00 PM
I think you missed the part where I was sarcastic and wanted to demonstrate the same thing you pointed out.

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Funny, but I don't think they need them during take off and landing anyway. It's during flights if something has to be looked up. They prepare for take off and landing and then do things off the top of their head + intstruments, there's no time to look at a book when you have to be looking through the window/at the instruments. I could be wrong, but that's my understanding.

Yes, you are wrong. Approach plates are vital when preparing to land, and are constantly referenced, usually by the Pilot Not Flying. Nothing is done off the top of ones head.

I bought an iPad and a chart subscription a few years ago for private flying, around the time that AA and others started considering it for their cockpits. Up until that time, I thought I'd never have a use for an iPad. Once I got it, I couldn't believe how much easier it made my life in the cockpit. I wish my company had made the switch before I stopped flying professionally.

----------

Ohhh cmon. Dont tell me that this is some significant thing. Do the feds really need to give 121 carriers all this grief with approval? The iPad has been tested a thousand times for rapid decompression. It passes with flying colors. 18 months is insane! We told the feds we wanted approval. We used the iPads for 6 months and noted very few problems we had. We got our Op Spec shortly after and dumped all of our paper books. The rest of you dont really know what that is, but the feds finally getting around to approving iPads for airlines boggles my mind. They should be in every cockpit.

I'm glad that life is easier in the 91F and 135 worlds.

thasan
Mar 21, 2013, 05:05 PM
Fail.
My 12 YO daughter has a first-gen iPad that does everything she wants it to. Games, Netflix, even PDFs and EPUBs. And we are currently on the fourth gen of the iPad - pretty good lifespan for this type of device, really. No, you can't load the latest iOS on it, but it still functions fine for a connected-happy pre-teen.

he was just being sarcastic :D

IJ Reilly
Mar 21, 2013, 05:05 PM
Ohhh cmon. Dont tell me that this is some significant thing. Do the feds really need to give 121 carriers all this grief with approval? The iPad has been tested a thousand times for rapid decompression. It passes with flying colors. 18 months is insane! We told the feds we wanted approval. We used the iPads for 6 months and noted very few problems we had. We got our Op Spec shortly after and dumped all of our paper books. The rest of you dont really know what that is, but the feds finally getting around to approving iPads for airlines boggles my mind. They should be in every cockpit.

I believe Apple still only certifies the iPad to 10,000 feet of pressure altitude, so this could be a part of the reason why it took so long. It might not have been about explosive decompression so much as just plain old decompression. As far as I can tell, American and Alaska are the only large Part 121 operators who have even tried to get the iPad approved for all phases of flight.

ohbrilliance
Mar 21, 2013, 05:11 PM
At a quick glance, the logo looks like a pair of 3D glasses :)

Horrible logo. It looks like wind coming from the left is blowing the curl over, the opposite direction to what it should be.

notabadname
Mar 21, 2013, 05:27 PM
Ohhh cmon. Dont tell me that this is some significant thing. Do the feds really need to give 121 carriers all this grief with approval? The iPad has been tested a thousand times for rapid decompression. It passes with flying colors. 18 months is insane! We told the feds we wanted approval. We used the iPads for 6 months and noted very few problems we had. We got our Op Spec shortly after and dumped all of our paper books. The rest of you dont really know what that is, but the feds finally getting around to approving iPads for airlines boggles my mind. They should be in every cockpit.

As I said, it is significant for the major air carriers. In the "big-scheme" of things, I don't find the delay that big of a deal. I prefer that the FAA and US Carriers are very cautious in their implementation of new technologies. If some kind of mishap occurred due to poor chart implementation or inaccuracies in the updating process with electronic "flight-kits", everyone would be questioning why the FAA rushed.

numlock
Mar 21, 2013, 05:34 PM
As a private pilot, you apparently don't know much about the Airline industry and what an effort it has taken to get approval for this in Part 121 Carrier Operations. There is a reason this is reported as a "first". I am a pilot for Delta Air Lines, and we are in the process of getting the same approval. It has been "in test" with the FAA for over 18 months. Getting a process like this approved, across a fleet of 700 aircraft, of various types and configurations, and trained to a pilot group of 12,000 pilots is very significant.

i was once lucky enough to fly from europe to new york in the cockpit on a cargo plane and during the flight the pilots were updating their huge binders during the flight.

so if a pilot carries around 30-40 pounds how much regeneration/updating in pounds does it go through in a year?

scott4long
Mar 21, 2013, 05:46 PM
i was once lucky enough to fly from europe to new york in the cockpit on a cargo plane and during the flight the pilots were updating their huge binders during the flight.

so if a pilot carries around 30-40 pounds how much regeneration/updating in pounds does it go through in a year?

The problem really isn't the wasted paper and the weight, it's the overhead of managing the paper and the risk of human mistakes being made during by-hand updating. Some companies make their pilots update their binders, some companies hire outside firms to do the work for them. Neither is that great of a solution, whereas the iPad (or any EFB) is a great step in the right direction of centralizing the task and significantly reducing the risks.

numlock
Mar 21, 2013, 06:18 PM
The problem really isn't the wasted paper and the weight, it's the overhead of managing the paper and the risk of human mistakes being made during by-hand updating. Some companies make their pilots update their binders, some companies hire outside firms to do the work for them. Neither is that great of a solution, whereas the iPad (or any EFB) is a great step in the right direction of centralizing the task and significantly reducing the risks.

thats good to know. although im firmly against wasting paper and really anything else my question had nothing to do with that point of view. its just curiosity since when you see articles about this subject then the weight is always mentioned so having witnessed pilots going through their binders i know they update it just not how much and how regularly.

scott4long
Mar 21, 2013, 06:47 PM
thats good to know. although im firmly against wasting paper and really anything else my question had nothing to do with that point of view. its just curiosity since when you see articles about this subject then the weight is always mentioned so having witnessed pilots going through their binders i know they update it just not how much and how regularly.

Yeah, the weight is a common talking point since it's so easy to convey and understand. But even then, it's sometimes a little more complicated. Maybe it means that the airplane is 80lbs lighter leaving the date, but maybe it means that the company can load 80lbs more cargo and baggage into the hold without going over the max weight specification. Either way, it's a win. However, the real purpose is to increase safety and reduce the risk of mistakes in the cockpit, and that's where the iPads/EFB's are such an important step.

As for the frequency of updates for charts, they're usually sent out on 28 and/or 56 day cycles. A typical update might only be a couple dozen pages on very thin/light paper and thus only weigh a few ounces, or it might be a hundred or more pages. Company binders get updated at irregular intervals and again range from a few pages to whole sections. If I had to estimate how much waste I generated in a year of updating charts and company binders, it would probably be somewhere in the range of 10lbs.

szw-mapple fan
Mar 21, 2013, 07:10 PM
Isn't it dangerous if you only rely on an iPad? What if it froze all of a sudden in a vital procedure?:(

SILen(e
Mar 21, 2013, 07:17 PM
Isn't it dangerous if you only rely on an iPad? What if it froze all of a sudden in a vital procedure?:(

Then they'd still have the second iPad that's in the cockpit.

And for the very vital procedures, they still have the paper manual.

notabadname
Mar 21, 2013, 09:11 PM
Isn't it dangerous if you only rely on an iPad? What if it froze all of a sudden in a vital procedure?:(

Our approach procedures are in a Nav database that is displayed on horizontal situation displays (planform moving maps) as part of the flight instruments and tracked by the aircraft autopilot or manually by the pilot. So we typically could land at any suitable airport without reference to the paper or iPads. However, we do reference the approach plates (maps) and navigational charts to backup and confirm the accuracy of the on-board database. So either one is really a backup to the other. Even if both iPads failed, it would not actually prevent us from safely landing. But day-to-day operations are all about backups and redundancy.

unplugme71
Mar 22, 2013, 06:20 AM
The iPads are a good idea, but wouldn't it be prudent to keep at least one hard copy of the manual onboard?

I'd sure hope so. But then again, I wouldn't want a pilot to navigate me if he needs to reference from a book.

scott4long
Mar 22, 2013, 09:15 AM
I'd sure hope so. But then again, I wouldn't want a pilot to navigate me if he needs to reference from a book.

Bwahahahah! I guess you don't fly, eh?

taylorharris50
Mar 22, 2013, 10:17 AM
Millions are saved in fuel costs by this change.

How much would be saved if the airlines allowed passengers removed in flight entertainment and those horrible airline magazines?

Most passengers would prefer to use their tablets during all phases of flights instead of the sub-par airline options. Fix this and you fix a lot more than the flight bags.

Airline magazines also contribute to disease transmission. Sick passengers sneeze in their hands while reading the magazines, put them back in the seat pocket, and the next passenger gets exposed.

b3thomso
Mar 22, 2013, 10:22 AM
Isn't it dangerous if you only rely on an iPad? What if it froze all of a sudden in a vital procedure?:(

When the FAA approved the use of iPads in the cockpit, the topic of the iPad freezing or a navigational app (like Jeppessen or ForeFlight) crashing did come up. There were some things talked about like if the app crashed, it needed to be able to reopen in like 5 seconds or something. And if the iPad itself froze and you needed to do a soft reboot, it needed to come back online online within 5 minutes. Don't quote me on those times or the exact recommendation, but thats what I gathered from talking to our specific FAA guy when we were getting approved. Its really been a non-issue. You have two iPads in the cockpit. They are very reliable. The chances of having both crash at the exact same time are extremely slim. The only real issue we had was on hot days during the summer and leaving your iPad near the window with the sun beating on it. It will shut off for getting too hot.

galrito
Mar 22, 2013, 11:10 AM
I'd sure hope so. But then again, I wouldn't want a pilot to navigate me if he needs to reference from a book.

That's right. I don't want to fly with a pilot who follows checklists too. They make me scared.
I only like pilots who memorize those hundreds of procedures of an airliner.

BvizioN
Mar 22, 2013, 02:30 PM
Airline magazines also contribute to disease transmission. Sick passengers sneeze in their hands while reading the magazines, put them back in the seat pocket, and the next passenger gets exposed.

There is a short amount of time for bacteria's/viruses to survive after they have left the human body.

unplugme71
Mar 22, 2013, 02:48 PM
Bwahahahah! I guess you don't fly, eh?

Pre-flight is fine, but if the plane is going down, they better know wtf they are doing.

scott4long
Mar 22, 2013, 07:08 PM
Pre-flight is fine, but if the plane is going down, they better know wtf they are doing.

Yes, having immediate response items memorized for emergency situations is standard procedure for pilot training, and is something that's retested on a periodic basis. What's also standard procedure is to have a written checklist that can be run after the initial response. This checklist will ensure that the PF and the PNF didn't forget anything due to distractions, and will expand upon the procedure to cover lower priority action items and procedures that should be performed once the immediate danger is under control. Checklists aren't a crutch for pilots with poor memories, they're a tool that help prevent mistakes and enhance the knowledge and training that pilots retain.

Here's an example: When Sullenberger and Skiles successfully ditched their USAir A320 into the Hudson, they (specifically Skiles) were running checklists the whole way down. They made an outstanding demonstration of how emergencies should be handled, and I'd be honored and privileged if I ever had the change to fly with them, either as a passenger or a pilot.

charlituna
Mar 23, 2013, 08:50 PM
I am a private jet pilot and we have been approved and have been using the iPad alone for about a year now. This is old news.

It might be old news for private jets but for commercial airlines it is not old at all. Especially having approval to put all the manuals on an iPad.

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Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

iPads can be updated to new code for a year or two. And then replaced by iPads that will go another year or two. All the while the code for the app(s) will be constantly tweaked as needed.

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I thought you didn't get reception that high? :confused:
Unless the plane has WiFi...

They don't need reception, its all locally stored

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Then they'd still have the second iPad that's in the cockpit.

And for the very vital procedures, they still have the paper manual.

And after that I would hope the pilots have the skill to handle things. After all in a real emergency it's unlikely they could look anything up book or otherwise.

cruggles
Mar 24, 2013, 08:57 AM
As far as I can tell, American and Alaska are the only large Part 121 operators who have even tried to get the iPad approved for all phases of flight.

In the USA maybe.

Qantas (Australia) has approval and now use iPads on most of their airliners (all phases of flight). Jepessen App for charts, and an in-house app for manuals, flight plans, weather, notams, forms etc. It is an amazing change for the better.

The iPads have been EMI tested and are approved for use during takeoff and landing (by pilots only) in non-transmitting mode.

jknight8907
Mar 24, 2013, 01:21 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

Paper approach plates have a 28-day life. After that they are expired and must be updated. That's a lot of paper. Buying a new iPad every few years is still a massive saving over paper. We use iPads in our aircraft, and have for a couple of years now. The cost savings over paper charts, the weight savings, and the ease of updating is amazing. Also the added safety features are unreal.

RobertMartens
Mar 24, 2013, 08:56 PM
.


Originally Posted by taylorharris50
Airline magazines also contribute to disease transmission. Sick passengers sneeze in their hands while reading the magazines, put them back in the seat pocket, and the next passenger gets exposed.


There is a short amount of time for bacteria's/viruses to survive after they have left the human body.



She knows that but is probably a germ freak.

coolspot18
Mar 24, 2013, 11:03 PM
These companies are going to love Apple when they change the form factor or connector on future iPads ad hoc. All the money that went into these holders, connectors, etc. will go out the window.


I just hope Apple pays attention to the Enterprise market, whether it is the iPhone or iMac for that matter.

ramuman
Mar 25, 2013, 03:01 AM
These companies are going to love Apple when they change the form factor or connector on future iPads ad hoc. All the money that went into these holders, connectors, etc. will go out the window.


I just hope Apple pays attention to the Enterprise market, whether it is the iPhone or iMac for that matter.

Yeah, because Apple has a reputation for changing the connector every decade. I'd worry too.

Also, every form factor change instantly makes all previous iDevices obsolete. Heck, with the recent home button leaks, my iPhone 5 doesn't even work anymore.

00sjsl
Mar 25, 2013, 03:57 AM
Then they'd still have the second iPad that's in the cockpit.

And for the very vital procedures, they still have the paper manual.

You could easily imagine a software update intruducing a bug where the pdf viewer locks at some particular point in a pdf.

bcburrows
Mar 25, 2013, 05:11 AM
There is a short amount of time for bacteria's/viruses to survive after they have left the human body.

I am afraid that whilst I am not remotely concerned about using books manuals etc that other people have touched....something we do all day everyday.... The statement that bacteria/viruses can only live for a shirt time out of the body is complete tosh on the whole, have you by any chance recently re-watched 'Outbreak'?

Whilst a small number of bacteria/viruses are poor survivors in certain environments, generally they are exceptionally hardy. There was even a report by NASA that some streptococci survived in the vacuum of space during the Apollo missions after an accidental contamination by ground crew......

SILen(e
Mar 25, 2013, 07:23 AM
You could easily imagine a software update intruducing a bug where the pdf viewer locks at some particular point in a pdf.

I doubt that those iPads will ever see a "iOS 6.2 has been released, would you like to download and install it?" update.

As they are not used to surf the web, there are not many reasons to update the software of the OS or the apps used to display the maps and manuals.

It's just like computers still running Windows 95 at some companies, because they are used to run software that would be too expensive to port to newer OS'.

Luis Ortega
Mar 25, 2013, 07:38 AM
40 pounds ls a lot in Aviation terms. the iPad is here to stay for long time, don't worry.

Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.

d4zza
Mar 25, 2013, 08:32 AM
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.

Seriously??

I've seen some silly comments on this thread from people who are clearly not commercial pilots but this one tops the lot!

Is that how planes work? They just fall out of the sky when something malfunctions? An iPad stops working and all of a sudden the laws of physics change so that a plane "falls out of the sky"??

Please tell me you're not being serious!?!

galrito
Mar 25, 2013, 09:02 AM
Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.

Yes, just like a plane will crash automatically if coffee spills on an approach chart.
Nothing, in aviation, is left to chance.

PracticalMac
Mar 25, 2013, 11:14 AM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

Paper chats and books are obsolete every 2 months, requiring new 50 Lb of paper PER PILOT and one per airplane. 90% of that paper is not even touched by crew who fly the same route.

I thought you didn't get reception that high? :confused:
Unless the plane has WiFi...

All data is loaded and checked on the ground.

I got reception at 9,ooo ft once (ATT 3G).
Today aircraft are being upgraded to have internet access via satellite.

This seems really cool and all, but it seems strange to me that they always tell passengers to turn off their electronic devices during takeoff and landing, but now it's ok to use iPads in the cockpit?? :confused:

FAA changed it policy, it is now OK to use electronic devices (except cell phones) in all phases of flight except takeoff/landing, IIRC.

Ironic for the same device.


See previous comment.

The iPads are a good idea, but wouldn't it be prudent to keep at least one hard copy of the manual onboard?

For now, but likely that will be replaced with another iPad.
The paper gets outdated quickly. In fact daily NOTAM's need to be printed and referred to with that paper.

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Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.

So, please tell my how airplanes flew without iPad's?

Considering the number of accidents becuase the pilots had the wrong information in hand, the iPad can increase safety.

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Yeah, until a plane falls out of the sky because the ipads didn't work.

You could easily imagine a software update intruducing a bug where the pdf viewer locks at some particular point in a pdf.

Checked on ground after each update for correct operation.

snberk103
Mar 25, 2013, 11:24 AM
Strictly as a passenger, I have enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you to the very knowledgeable pilots (and others with experience) who have contributed their thoughts. While I was already convinced that in theory at least an iPad could be superior to the paper manuals, now I can't wait for iPads to become standard everywhere, and paper manuals relinquished to the recycling bins.

One of the big surprises from reading this thread was how often the paper manuals were being opened up to have pages removed and added. I am sure that the occasional human error in adding those pages has itself caused numerous potential problems when a pilot has turned to a page and not found the reference needed. And yet, somehow that plane has "not fallen out of the sky."

Cheers

unplugme71
Mar 25, 2013, 03:12 PM
Yes, having immediate response items memorized for emergency situations is standard procedure for pilot training, and is something that's retested on a periodic basis. What's also standard procedure is to have a written checklist that can be run after the initial response. This checklist will ensure that the PF and the PNF didn't forget anything due to distractions, and will expand upon the procedure to cover lower priority action items and procedures that should be performed once the immediate danger is under control. Checklists aren't a crutch for pilots with poor memories, they're a tool that help prevent mistakes and enhance the knowledge and training that pilots retain.

Here's an example: When Sullenberger and Skiles successfully ditched their USAir A320 into the Hudson, they (specifically Skiles) were running checklists the whole way down. They made an outstanding demonstration of how emergencies should be handled, and I'd be honored and privileged if I ever had the change to fly with them, either as a passenger or a pilot.

I highly doubt a checklist is going to help when the plane is going nose down and there are no controls working.

scott4long
Mar 25, 2013, 03:17 PM
I highly doubt a checklist is going to help when the plane is going nose down and there are no controls working.

That's not how airplanes work =-)

d4zza
Mar 25, 2013, 04:21 PM
That's not how airplanes work =-)

Exactly!

Again, referring to my post a few posts back, I'm amazed at how many people who have no idea about even the basics of flight somehow feel compelled to make stupid comments. Unless you're a commercial pilot, please try not to criticise the use of iPads on a large passenger plane, you're just making an idiot out of yourself.

scott4long
Mar 25, 2013, 04:47 PM
Exactly!

Again, referring to my post a few posts back, I'm amazed at how many people who have no idea about even the basics of flight somehow feel compelled to make stupid comments. Unless you're a commercial pilot, please try not to criticise the use of iPads on a large passenger plane, you're just making an idiot out of yourself.

I would have loved to replace my flight case with an iPad while I was still doing 121 flying. The case was just another thing to lug around and trip over all day; good riddance. I had friends at Skywest that started the switch 18 months ago, and they were overjoyed.

For 91 flying, I've already downsized my flight kit to be just just my iPad mini, procedure checklists, my headset, a flashlight, and a few sets of extra batteries. It makes the cockpit so much less crowded. Also, no need to unfold and refold charts, thumb through approach books, blindly dig through the case for that one chart set that you need but just can't find, etc. I'd say that safety, especially solo flying safety, improves dramatically with an iPad. 121 safety also improves because there's much less of a chance of human error in replacing pages. In fact, I'd say that error in managing the paper is much more likely than failure of the device, let alone 2 devices. And in the worst case, you can always declare an emergency and get ATC to help talk you down. Even then, I have the same apps and charts loaded onto my iphone as a backup.

cjmillsnun
Mar 25, 2013, 06:22 PM
Replacing books with consumer devices that will be obsolete in a few years. Fantastic idea.

As with most production things.

Who cares if they're obsolete. They should last for years, after which they can be recycled and replaced with a later model.

In all fairness, as they are corporate issue, they won't connect much to the net, so won't need iOS updates, so they can continue as they are for as long as the battery holds. Bear in mind they're already using an external battery solution to power the device, it gives an almost unlimited lifespan. Especially as they'll have mounts and be secure, or be in the pilot's flight bag.

They aren't going to get dog eared or need replacing every few months as they can be updated by the company by being swapped out with one that has updated software, whereas paper charts and books do need replacing regularly.

Once the iPad has been returned and swapped, it can be updated and given to another pilot. To me that's damn good resource management.

BvizioN
Mar 26, 2013, 01:15 AM
I am afraid that whilst I am not remotely concerned about using books manuals etc that other people have touched....something we do all day everyday.... The statement that bacteria/viruses can only live for a shirt time out of the body is complete tosh on the whole, have you by any chance recently re-watched 'Outbreak'?

Whilst a small number of bacteria/viruses are poor survivors in certain environments, generally they are exceptionally hardy. There was even a report by NASA that some streptococci survived in the vacuum of space during the Apollo missions after an accidental contamination by ground crew......

Look! Am talking about the most common viruses of cold and flu! They survive outside human body just as long as you could survive in the top of Everest. Yes, there is bacteria's that can survive in the boiling water or in the harsh freezing temperatures of Antarctica. But these are different type of bacteria's and they don't usually choose to live in a human body. If you are really concerned about touching with your bare hand what other people touch, you may as well find away to live in a soap bubble! You are in close contact with people every day, regardless if you touch or not touch what they touch! The airplane magazine theory is silly IMO.

snberk103
Mar 26, 2013, 11:09 AM
Look! Am talking about the most common viruses of cold and flu! They survive outside human body just as long as you could survive in the top of Everest. .....

Up to 6 hours, or two 2 hour flights including turn-around time on the ground. Link (http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/germy-surfaces/)

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What will be interesting to see are the various modifications to the iPad installations will need to be devised as pilots get more familiar with them in difficult situations. I'd be particularly interested in what happens in bright sun glare when the surface may be hard to see.

I also wonder what version of iPad the airlines will be receiving. It seems to me - as a non-pilot - that the airlines won't need the newest models... that for this task an older model will work fine for years.... Apple gets to unload older models, airlines get to save some money.

cjmillsnun
Mar 26, 2013, 12:00 PM
I'd sure hope so. But then again, I wouldn't want a pilot to navigate me if he needs to reference from a book.

Every commercial pilot relies on charts, checklists and books, and pieces of paper (or iPads)... You cannot hope to remember every single airport approach, weight details, all procedures for the various aeroplanes that they fly, frequencies for nav beacons (VOR and NDB and ILS), NOTAMs, METAR data, etc. It's just way too much information.

Also with checklists and everything written down, the idea is to do things to the checklists every single time. It avoids bad habits and shortcuts. The pilots (and flight engineer in the few planes left flying that require one) monitor each other, based on checklists and procedures to make sure that everything is safe and are not afraid to call each other out if something isn't being done right.

It is exceedingly rare that a problem will cause a plane to suddenly fall out of the sky. Even with total engine failure depending on height the plane will glide for many miles. This means that pilots have ample time to consult the checklists and do things right.

Remember there are tens if not hundreds of lives on each passenger flight, plus those of people on the ground.

I'd much rather pilots had these pieces of paper, charts and books (or iPads). I want them to make sure they do the job right.

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I also wonder what version of iPad the airlines will be receiving. It seems to me - as a non-pilot - that the airlines won't need the newest models... that for this task an older model will work fine for years.... Apple gets to unload older models, airlines get to save some money.

It would make sense to use the iPad 2. A retina display wouldn't be required, they're a current model (but older and proven technology) and they'll be able to snap up refurbs for a year or so after Apple stops producing them new.

A matte screen protector should sort out the worst of the glare issues. As long as they're looked after then they should be good for 4-5 years of constant use. By which time, they'll have had plenty of time to certify the next device they intend to use.

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I believe Apple still only certifies the iPad to 10,000 feet of pressure altitude, so this could be a part of the reason why it took so long. It might not have been about explosive decompression so much as just plain old decompression. As far as I can tell, American and Alaska are the only large Part 121 operators who have even tried to get the iPad approved for all phases of flight.

Why would that be an issue. Pressurisation would keep the cabin/cockpit altitude below 10,000 feet anyway Any depressurisation would be noticed before it became an issue (unless it was explosive) and a descent would be made to counter the issue.

snberk103
Mar 26, 2013, 12:28 PM
....
Why would that be an issue. Pressurisation would keep the cabin/cockpit altitude below 10,000 feet anyway Any depressurisation would be noticed before it became an issue (unless it was explosive) and a descent would be made to counter the issue.

Thanks for your answers....

I suspect the certification was to ensure that the iPads still functioned at the lower altitude after an explosive decompression. You wouldn't want a sudden change in pressure inside an iPad causing a hardware malfunction just when you really need it. Obviously, they will work fine. I'm sure the FAA people did their best to devise a test that would break an iPad.

phillipduran
Mar 26, 2013, 01:36 PM
I wonder if they play Pocket Planes during downtime.

"Captain were ready to begin our decent."

"Hold on, I need to get a shipment of medical supplies to Las Vegas!"

:D

juanm
Mar 26, 2013, 09:14 PM
As a private pilot, you apparently don't know much about the Airline industry and what an effort it has taken to get approval for this in Part 121 Carrier Operations. There is a reason this is reported as a "first". I am a pilot for Delta Air Lines, and we are in the process of getting the same approval. It has been "in test" with the FAA for over 18 months. Getting a process like this approved, across a fleet of 700 aircraft, of various types and configurations, and trained to a pilot group of 12,000 pilots is very significant.

Yep. I know that for some devices NASA uses it's the same thing. By the time they are done approving some devices, they are already obsolete by consumer standards!! :D
Also, once they've gotten approvals, they keep using them for a loooooong time.