US soldiers need to leave S. Korea ASAP!

You have the same gripe Pat Buchanan had concerning the stationing of US troops in Korea and Japan. Remember why the US is in Korea and Japan to begin with. The US is not there to protect the Koreans and Japanese per se as much as they were there to contain the Soviets during the Cold War. In exchange for some protection under the US military umbrella, Korea and Japan effectively surrendered a degree of their sovereignty to the US. In case you didn't know, Japan is already underwriting the US presence in their country, and I would be surprised if the Koreans aren't already doing the same thing.

The US is not out in Korea out of the goodness of its heart. The US obtained some military and geopolitical flexibility in exchange for providing some nominal protection for the Koreans.

Right now, the Koreans are rightly upset: similiar incidents have occurred many times before where a US soldier injures or kills a Korean and goes unpunished. How would we feel if a Korean soldier ran over an American in Chicago and is tried and found innocent by a Korean court? I'd doubt Americans would feel very happy about that too.

In any case, incidents like this unnecessarily damages America's prestige. We should train these soldiers to act more responsibly in other countries and not be so arrogant when they commit a crime.

We should just start taking over all the little weak nations until the UN tries to stop us, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

Boycotts seldom work. Even over in South Korea same thing, it won't work but for a few people. Everyone else will consume as usual.
As well you call for a boycott of Daewoo here in the US. Well GM bought most if not all of the Daewoo car manufacturing parts. So by boycotting them, you hurt GM. So is Daewoo Korean or American? Or what?

While the South Koreans may whine about what happened I don't know what happened. Maybe it was an accident. Maybe the soldiers went of course and were the ones at fault. Who knows. Neither do most of the protesters. The US Military just does not go roving where ever and whenever it pleases. They know all to well the high cost of an incident like this and make sure to know what they are doing.
Back to the South Koreans whining, they do that now. Well they just need look across the border to see how the North Koreans are ramping up their nuclear program again. As well they are selling missile technology to anyone willing to pay. The North does not care and is more than happy to run across the border to kick the living spit out of the South. The US presence is what prevents that. North Koreans will start to whip up the fervor even more and as a result the South will have to look to the US for help. Heck US bases in South Korea will become ghost towns when/if the Iraq war starts up.

In the end, for the little guy it does not matter a whole lot and there is not a whole lot he can do. The little guy in the us gave up the chance to do something about it when he stopped voting long while back.

Originally posted by macktheknife [/i]

Right now, the Koreans are rightly upset: similiar incidents have occurred many times before where a US soldier injures or kills a Korean and goes unpunished. How would we feel if a Korean soldier ran over an American in Chicago and is tried and found innocent by a Korean court? I'd doubt Americans would feel very happy about that too.

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It is a bit of a double standard since when it happened in the Washington, DC in 97 the Russian Diplomat got sentenced. But the diplomat was drunk and the brouhaha that followed concerning his diplomatic immunity was fierce. Anyone remember this?

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/30/georgia.diplomat

D

Originally posted by dukestreet


It is a bit of a double standard since when it happened in the Washington, DC in 97 the Russian Diplomat got sentenced. But the diplomat was drunk and the brouhaha that followed concerning his diplomatic immunity was fierce. Anyone remember this?

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/30/georgia.diplomat

D

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Actually, I do remember the incident. If we ask citizens of other countries to abide by our law when they're on our soil, is it too much to ask the same of US servicemen who are stationed abroad?

The difference: the Georgian diplomat was drunk, we have no info on the details of the South Korea case. If indeed the soldiers were at fault so that they would receive manslaughter charges in the U.S. then I would say the Army abused the SOFA and the calls for a better agreement are well founded. But jumping to conclusions before you know what even happened is stupid.

Now does anybody know the specifics of the incident.

Originally posted by MisterBlack
We should just start taking over all the little weak nations until the UN tries to stop us, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

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hahahaha

good one.

We should just start taking over all the little weak nations until the UN tries to stop us, and then accuse them of being terrorists.

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Facetious, but true. Iraq is a weak victim of the true world terrorists, the United States of America. All those reports of Saddam's brutalities? Propaganda concocted by an administration bent on wiping out all of the dark-skinned peoples of the world and taking control of their oil fields. The US, under right-wing leadership, can do nothing right. We need someone honorable, like Clinton, again. I don't know why others can't see this.

The U.S. soldiers did screw up

1. They were on a road that by U.S. regulations was too narrow to drive that armored vehicle. Legally they weren't supposed to be there.

2. They were on a road known to be frequented by pedistrians.

3. They were ordered to act as if under fire, thus making them more hurried.

4. They were operating with little sleep.

One of the soldiers in that convoy wrote a letter explaining what happened and he felt the true person responsible for the accident is really the CO, who ordered the men to drive up that road, even though he was informed of all the problems involved. The U.S. seems that it wants to cover this up as much as possible, which is why the Koreans are so pissed.

Originally posted by Kethoticus
Propaganda concocted by an administration bent on wiping out all of the dark-skinned peoples of the world and taking control of their oil fields. The US, under right-wing leadership, can do nothing right. We need someone honorable, like Clinton, again.

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gag, ack! Honorable, like Clinton? Using big words to validate the point of your own personal vue and frustration doesn't work here. If you're bent on propagating this drivel, try and back it up with a fact or two, otherwise its just a bunch of idle speculation and conspiracy theorizing.

D

Originally posted by Kethoticus


Facetious, but true. Iraq is a weak victim of the true world terrorists, the United States of America. All those reports of Saddam's brutalities? Propaganda concocted by an administration bent on wiping out all of the dark-skinned peoples of the world and taking control of their oil fields. The US, under right-wing leadership, can do nothing right. We need someone honorable, like Clinton, again. I don't know why others can't see this.

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You know, either your tougne is so far in your cheak that it is ripping, or you are just a bit on the special side.

Man, how can you call his leadership honorable? He was a lot of things, and did the man do some good things? Sure, but was he honorable? That is a very, very bold statement. So, I suppose that the Iraq generals that have defected hear are all liars? I suppose the video of the gassed Kurds are lies? I suppose 9/11 never happened right.

Sheesh. Get a grip man.

Sheesh. Get a grip man.

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Ha! It's called "SAR-CAS-M".

Originally posted by Kethoticus


Ha! It's called "SAR-CAS-M".

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I hope your cheek will heal soon

I hope your cheek will heal soon

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Never bothered me pal, never bothered me. I'm just tired of hearing people criticize my country's foreign policies with ridiculous arguments, making it seem as if the people we're fighting are somehow the innocent victims of imperial and racist feverisms.

I DO agree that some of what the president's doing is questionable and even wrong, like NOT militarizing our Mexican border and his short-sighted environmental policies. But that our enemies are from Arab and Asian states has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with the fact that our enemies are from Arab and Asian states! Not hard to figure out, really. I mean, was anti-Aryan racism our *true* motive in WWII?? C'mon.

Now whether or not this has anything to do with oil, I don't know. I understand the conspiracy theorists and have to admit that they do raise some question marks in my head. I can only hope that they're wrong. But the idea that the US is "picking on the smaller countries and later using the excuse it's because they're terrorist states" is, in my opinion (based on what few facts any of us can truly get a hold of), idiotic. I'd love to see some hard facts to back this kind of thing up.

Oh I'm not saying the US is angelic. By no means are we. We're arrogant and sometimes too aloof to the rest of the world. That does need to change. But EVERYTHING we do is not wrong or does not have some devious ulterior motive. There is such a thing as BALANCE in one's views, and there is also such a thing as the right to defend oneself.

Well, Keith, join me and Ovi in the political discussions. We need all the help we can get with the liberalmacrumors types around here

kethoticus - you need to add the apporpriate smilies to convey sarcasm sometimes - there are too many on here who really do believe some of what you posted. But thanks for clearing it up.

D

having live on yongsan for 2 years... this is quite an interesting bit of news.

i remember having a dream one night that my dad was off fighting in a battle in the woods near our house. i was like 7 at the time, but i remember waking up not knowing if it was real or not. scary

i can't really say whether the people of south korea appreciates the troops really or not... but i do know that as an american there, i wasn't looked at with an evil eye (off the base i mean), but rather, felt pretty well respected.

which certainly could have been because they saw americans as rich and thus they could buy a lot of their goods. but it seemed to go beyond that.

whereas i can imagine the hostility towards american troops in places like kosovo, and some of africa and of course the middle east.

i don't know. i want to talk to my dad about it once i get home for the break. he'd have a first hand experience.

Originally posted by Kethoticus


But that our enemies are from Arab and Asian states has nothing to do with racism. It has to do with the fact that our enemies are from Arab and Asian states! Not hard to figure out, really. I mean, was anti-Aryan racism our *true* motive in WWII?? C'mon.

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That's agood point. But you should also ask yourself why are these Arab/Asian states your/our "enemies"? Does maybe have something to do with your/our economical empirialistic foreign politics?
I'm not saying Saddam is a nice guy, nor am I saying that dangerous leaders should be allowed to develop mass destruction weapons. But I don't think beating the hell out "enemies" is the way to go.
Find out why there're your/our enemies in the first place...

Originally posted by whocares


That's agood point. But you should also ask yourself why are these Arab/Asian states your/our "enemies"? Does maybe have something to do with your/our economical empirialistic foreign politics?
I'm not saying Saddam is a nice guy, nor am I saying that dangerous leaders should be allowed to develop mass destruction weapons. But I don't think beating the hell out "enemies" is the way to go.
Find out why there're your/our enemies in the first place...

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You are right, we have not rewarded them will hundreds of billions of dollars from oil revenue, and made them some of the wealthiest nations in the world. We went and stole all that oil. They hate us because their leaders don't give back anything, to their people, and then blame us for their countries economic plight. That and religion is a huge cause of the hate.

There are very few states in the world who are sworn enemies of the United States. Most other countries may resent the US for its economic and military might, but I seriously doubt they "hate" us so viscerally. In the case of Korea, even with all those protests, the Koreans still know that life is better on the Southern side of the border, due in no small part to the United States. What the Koreans and other countries in the world who host US servicemen is asking is that they be held accountable.

Remember about a year or two ago when a US military airplane flew so low that it cut the cable for this ski lift in Italy and killed several Italians? The Italians living near the area had complained constantly how the US planes were flying recklessly by flying too low. When an incident finally occurred, the US servicemen were tried and found innocent by the US despite a ton of evidence that the servicemen were indeed flying recklessly. Italians were justifiably angry. (In fact, one of the servicemen on the plane was videotaping the incident immediately destroyed the video right when the plane landed.) I won't even go into the incidents that have happened in Okinawa.

In any case, the US military is severely testing the goodwill of the countries that host our servicemen. Again, incidents like this unnecessarily damage the United States' prestige.

BTW, I was also in China in 1999 when the US accidentally bombed the Chinese Embassy in Yugoslavia. The Chinese were very upset, but even they still harbored no hatred of Americans per se.

The Chinese were very upset, but even they still harbored no hatred of Americans per se.

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I dunno about that. On some Chinese chatboards, there was a LOT of anger, even hatred, of the US. One psycho was advocating that his country hit us with a few nukes.

In any case, the US military is severely testing the goodwill of the countries that host our servicemen. Again, incidents like this unnecessarily damage the United States' prestige.

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I fully agree. Our nation keeps preaching human rights and human freedom, and yet we deny our host countries these things when we overprotect our servicemen. Understandably upsetting to the S Koreans and Japanese. Frankly, I'm embarassed by the way our country tries to put its own citizens above the laws of others.

Find out why there're your/our enemies in the first place...

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I'm sure there are myriad reasons for this. Some are the result of lies and propaganda on the parts of their gov't, some, their religion, and others, no doubt, something we did to understandably piss them off. But to ram two jetliners into two of our skyscrapers? Unjustified. THAT is the result of fanaticism, unless there's some monstrosity committed by this gov't that no one but the extremists know about.

kethoticus - you need to add the apporpriate smilies to convey sarcasm sometimes...

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Words of wisdom. I'll try to remember that in the future.

- there are too many on here who really do believe some of what you posted.

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Scary, ain't it?

Originally posted by Kethoticus
I dunno about that. On some Chinese chatboards, there was a LOT of anger, even hatred, of the US. One psycho was advocating that his country hit us with a few nukes.

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I was there when the students at Beijing University (China's Harvard, so to speak) were angrily debating on the best course of action for China to take, and had much stronger (and preposterous) words than hitting the US with nukes. In the end however, many of the students would have still given their right arm to come study in the US. They clearly destested what the US did, but they didn't hate the US itself. As for all those chat rooms and bulletin boards, we Macrumors regulars can probably agree with my observations that we talk more loudly online than in real life.

Originally posted by macktheknife

I was there when the students at Beijing University (China's Harvard, so to speak) were angrily debating on the best course of action for China to take, and had much stronger (and preposterous) words than hitting the US with nukes.

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just curious.... what's stronger and bigger than hitting us with a bunch of nukes?

i figure you can't top bombing a large place out of existence.