eBay Fraud Caught

[MacRumors]

Dec 1st, keltorsori posted about an unfortunate incident in which he was victim to a $3000 fraud. He posted his plea here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=15077) and to other messagesboards.

With some help from the Mac internet community, it looks like the person has been caught. You can read the entire story here. (http://www.remodern.com/caught.html)

[Backtothemac]

Sweet! It reminds me of the guy who caught a thief by using Timbuktu to find his sister's iMac.

Way to go man!

[unfaded]

This story has finally made me register here on MacRumors, despite having been a lurker for years (at least it's felt like years).

All I can say is the coolest part of the story is the guy who took 23 pictures of the fraudster's house for the man. That blew me away.

I LOVE YOU GUYS!!! *group hug for mac users everywhere*

[DreaminDirector]

I know we all love our macs, and this just goes to show that we are the craziest, yet most passionate people about this little company we call Apple.

Congradulations keltorsori!

[OSeXy!]

"I know in my heart that Mr. Christmas is really a PC guy.... I was not going to give up. That night I dreamed of Mr. Christmas and a baseball bat, some duct tape, and roofing nails."

LOL Brilliant story. Hope you recover some of what you lost!

[Hemingray]

That is absolutely awesome. It just goes to show how if you keep at something, you will almost always get results! That must have been so tiring, but SO worth it. :D

I can't wait to see this guy's mug shot.

Apple users unite! :p

[Skandranon]

Because it's a fantastic one. I've been beaming all day since reading about it. I was so stoked to hear that someone went so far as to send him maps of the neighborhood, did recon on the house and its vehicles... man, it feels so damn GOOD to be a Mac user!

Bravo, gang. Everyone gets a healthy pat on the back for this one.

:D

[Skandranon]

Originally posted by Hemingray
I can't wait to see this guy's mug shot.


TRUE. That guy is done in this country. Mac Public Enemy #1. He better stay in the slammer until he undergoes a complete change of appearance, (I'm sure the fellow inmates will take care of that) because he'll have a nation of Mac users looking to key his car and T.P. his front lawn.

"You ***** with me, you ***** with the best."
:cool:

[ThorPrime]

This has to be the bigest group effort from an online community I've ever heard of. Catching a career conman for stealing powermacs from people you don't know in real life.

mac me proud to be a part of the mac community

[dethl]

Noone steals our Macs....and lives!

[PretendPCuser]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Skandranon
[B]

because he'll have a nation of Mac users looking to key his car and T.P. his front lawn.

That would be used TP, right? :rolleyes:

[medea]

Hey way to go man, you should be very proud of yourself and Im sure that you will get your mac back, or else you have every right to sue him, you didnt give up and you found him so why quit now? sue that mofo.

[thedude]

See! This is what separates mac users from the rest of the world. It isn't about a computer, it isn't about an OS, it's about a culture. That is something that Wintel folks will never understand.

If I had a PeeCee ripped off, my buddies would just say, "just go to Fry's and build another one for $50".

I have always been and always will be a mac user. This story just reminds me of why I started using macs in the first place.
Mr. Christmas should have avoided stealing macs, cuz

"mi mac es tu mac."

I'm going to forward this story to all my friends. Maybe we can get marketshare to 6%!!!:D

[vniow]

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612 http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?postid=170612

[Mr. Anderson]

Ha! This is fantastic, congrats all around for everyone involved in getting the guy.

Whohoo!!!

Where's the pic?

D :D

[ShaolinMiddleFinger]

Congratulations! I honestly thought you'd never get this far. I'm very glad I was wrong. This shows to me that there are some really great people on these boards.

Apple lives forever as long as we are a community that helps their own.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Billy_ca]

Wow. What an incredible story. Makes my day.

[Megaquad]

oohh congratulations!
This story touched me so much I started to cry ;)
*wipes out tears*

[8thDegreeSavage]

WOW that story made my day man.....though a baseballbat and four kids from Southern Ontario would have been just as effective. And possibly a little more sweet.

Glad to hear others who have been wronged are getting theres too.....



The thief must have been making BANK! damn.

[springscansing]

Awesome! wahoo!

I felt so bad when I first heard about it that I almost bought you a new Ti!

Almost... hehe.

[edenwaith]

So when does the movie of this story come out? Being an eternal college/university student myself, I understand the pressures of school, but then top it all off with some extra BS in life to truly make life complicated. Cheers to everyone who caught videopro55!

On an odd note, I checked out videopro55's eBay feedback, and there is a ranking of 0. No positives, no negative, nothing. It seems like someone would have placed some commentary and such.

[e-coli]

NICE!!!!!

This man is destined to be a forensic scientist. :D

[Megaquad]

Originally posted by springscansing
Awesome! wahoo!

I felt so bad when I first heard about it that I almost bought you a new Ti!

Almost... hehe.
Hey you can buy me a new Ti!:D

[etoiles]

You should send that story to Apple, better than their current switch ads: once you get a mac, you'll never let go...:D
(they should replace your mac if it doesn't come back)

great story !

[cr2sh]

Reminds me of the saying : "If he pulls a knife, you pull a gun - if he puts one of yours in the hospital, you put one of his in the morgue; that's the Chicago way." Mac-users, god we're hardcore. :) This is almost as good of news as I'M DONE WITH FINALS!!! AHHH!!!!

edit:
the site is getting bad hits, if someone can cut and paste the story into this thread it'd be great! or host it on a mirror...

[TheInevitable]

I wish I had been familiar with these boards when I got ripped off on eBay. I payed $800 for a G4 tower and never saw it. The dude kept giving me excuses and promises every week for 3 months, then disapeared. His eBay ID was ibuyselltrade. If anyone knows anything about this, I would appreciate some feedback. Thanks guys.

[electric]

[You should send that story to Apple, better than their current switch ads: once you get a mac, you'll never let go...]

Yeah, was it not Apple that refused to give Mac World Press Passes to the publishers of Rumor sites?

We are Apple we just enable the Apple corporation to make hardware and software for us. No?

[Macmaniac]

I'm glad they caught the mofo. I am yet again proud to be in the brotherhood of mac. We stand up for each other! Take that PC frauds!!

hmm maybe a film would a great idea, this gives me an idea.....

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D

[TheInevitable]

Betcha that Eric could get his money back multiplied by selling his story to some movie company.

[solvs]

Congrats man. It's good to see that there still can be justice in this world. The Mac community's like family sometimes (or at least really good friends). I love to see people coming together to help the little guy.

*Sniff* I love you guys. :)

(Maybe I should have fought harder for that $30 I lost on that video card that never came.)

[edenwaith]

Originally posted by electric

Yeah, was it not Apple that refused to give Mac World Press Passes to the publishers of Rumor sites?


Well, it could be worse. Microsoft is forcing the site windowsxp.nu to close down. Supposedly this is to prevent confusion of this site with the official WinXP site. <SARCASM> I don't know about you guys, but I tend to always get somedomain.com and somedomain.nu confused ALL the time. Even today I tried to go to www.apple.nu to find out that it doesn't even exist!</SARCASM>

Seriously, does anyone really get confused with other sites. Granted that windowsxp.com forwards to the 'official' XP web site, but still, pretty much anything and everything out there, even non-commercial organizations, tend to go after the somename.com. Back to my main point. Microsoft probably shouldn't try and burn those few-Pro-Microsoft sites (I have yet to meet anyone who gushes over M$ the way that a Mac or Linux user enjoys their OS of choice), since they probably need the friends. Ah, heck, who needs friends when you got a world full of enemies?

[synergy]

Originally posted by cr2sh

edit:
the site is getting bad hits, if someone can cut and paste the story into this thread it'd be great! or host it on a mirror...


The site has been slashdotted.
Slashdot.org put the link up and hence no one can get to it when everyone is trying to get to it.
I wanted to see the site too. Hopefully tomorrow it should be better.

[big]

I'm amazed, this should be headlined in the paper....

[nickmcghie]

Originally posted by cr2sh
the site is getting bad hits, if someone can cut and paste the story into this thread it'd be great! or host it on a mirror...

Here You Go:

Mac Addicts to the Rescue

or

How I Caught a Counterfeiter with a Little Help from my Friends

a true story by Jason Eric Smith

Check out the Forum (http://www.remodern.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3#3)

in the interest of getting this out, no fancy layout, just hand coding. maybe i'll spruce it up later.
the names of the innocent have been changed, the names of the guilty though...

I am a college student (my second time around). Specifically, I'm studying to become a high school history teacher. I am a student with a lifelong habit though, Macintosh. I got my first Mac in 1986, a used Mac Plus with 1 megabyte of RAM a massive 40 megabyte external hardrive. Since then, I've always had to keep up, first it was the SE, then the IIsi, the Powerbook 140, and from there on, more Macs than you can shake a stick at (I missed the Mac TV). I usually keep my Mac for about 6 months, and then resell it and move up. I almost always buy used, so don't get any ideas about me being rich.

Since I went back to being a student again, I've been selling Macs more regularly, picking up good deals on used Macs locally and then reselling on eBay. I've been doing this for about two years now, its relatively easy, takes about an extra hour of my day, and usually pays the rent. In November when the new Powerbooks came out I decided I was going to buy one for myself, to keep, an early Christmas present that would come in handy for taking notes in class and finishing up a presentation I needed to do on the New Orleans school system. The day they were announced I ordered a nice new Powerbook G4 867 and found it on my doorstep only a few days later.

It was a beautiful machine, if you've never played with one in person, you won't believe it. I played with it for a couple of days, took it to school to take notes and do research on. The more I used it, the more I loved it. But, it was just too much to be carrying around, $2300 in my backpack had a tendency to make me a little nervous. I decided maybe I should turn it around and pick up an iBook. My girlfriend and I decided we would use the extra money to donate to some charities for Christmas. So on November 19th, up on eBay it went, along with an Airport Basestation and a bunch of other knickknacks. I set a buy-it-now price on a whim for $2950.

The next morning I checked my auction, a couple of bids placed, and so the buy-it-now option was gone. Checking my email I got a couple of questions about the computer and much to my surprise, an offer to buy it for $2900 from Steve Matthews, a dad with a lucky son in college who was going to be getting a Powerbook for his birthday. Steve wanted to pay for it COD, no problem, its actually how I usually sell things. I called him on the phone number he gave me to ask a couple of questions and make sure everything was on the up and up.

He reiterated that he was buying it as a last minute present for his son and since it was already setup as a package, he thought it was a good deal. Not to mention the Chicago Apple stores were still out of stock. I got home from school, packed up my Powerbook and accessories, and off they went Fedex overnight to Chicago, never to be seen again.

At 10:21AM on November 21st, a man going by the name of Paul Smith signed for my two packages and gave the driver an official cashier's check from LaSalle Bank for $3052.78 in return. The check made it back to my doorstep the next morning. I went to the bank, deposited the check and withdrew enough to go ahead and pay my rent and pick up a couple of household items. I sent an email to Steve to make sure he got everything ok and to check that nothing had been damaged in shipping. No reply. As the old saying goes, no news is good news, right?

My girlfriend and I went away for Thanksgiving, and when we got back on Friday, I had a message from my bank. The branch manager had called to let me know she had a returned item for $3052.78 and that my account was now in the negative. Seriously in the negative. No problem I thought, I'll just call Steve and see what's up.

So I dialed the number I had. In the back of my mind I expected a "this number has been disconnected message". Instead I got an answer, the voice sounded identical to Steve, so I asked if Steve was there.

"Oh, Steve, yeah, that's my cousin, he's out of town for Thanksgiving you know. He'll be back Tuesday"

"Can I leave a message for him?"

So I left my information and asked that he give me a call. That little voice in the back of my mind let out a sigh and an uh-oh. The voices were the same right? Was I being scammed? Well, if I was, I certainly wasn't going to let the weekend go by without doing a little investigating.

I started off with the information I had. His AOL email address, his phone number, and the address I shipped the computer to. The AOL address didn't yield anything. Doing a reverse lookup on the address (thanks to Whitepaes.com (http://www.whitepages.com)) I got three names and phone numbers, none of which matched anything I had. The phone number didn't give me anything. I finally found a way to lookup the exchange on the number to see if it was a cell phone or a landline (Fone Finder (http://www.primeris.com/fonefind/)). It came back as Nextel and I wanted to scream.

There really isn't anything you can do with a cell phone number. There are no directory services. The cell phone companies won't give out any information. And that's that. I called Nextel and pleaded with them. The customer service rep I spoke with seemed more confused than anything. He kept asking me what my Nextel phone number was and why I suspected someone was fraudulently billing to my account. I calmly explained at least three times that I was not a Nextel customer, that I was just trying to get an address for another customer I suspect has defrauded me, etc, etc. I finally gave up on Chris from Nextel, I've had customer service reps who don't even speak English who were more helpful.

I was at a dead end. I'd just sent my $2300 laptop, my Airport basestation, and a load of stuff to somebody I didn't know and all I had to show for it was a bill from Fedex for overnight shipping and a returned cashier's check. It's hard to sleep comfortably knowing some asshole has your Mac and is doing god knows what with it.

Sunday the first of December, I sprang into action full force. I called for help. I knew I wasn't going to get anywhere with this on my own, so I figured I might be able to get some help from some bulletin boards. I posted my tale of woe and call for assistance on every Mac bulletin board I could think of. I hoped that somebody who worked for Nextel, some fellow Mac addict like myself, might be willing to bend the rules a little. I wanted this guy's address and I wanted it bad. I was already pricing flights to Chicago and putting my professors on notice that I might have to miss a little class. I may have made an error in trusting this person, but I'm not someone you want to have that happen to. I will get you. I will hunt you down, and I will bring a baseball bat with me.

I got more replies than I could keep up with. Everyone wanted to know what they could do to help or at least offer support. Well, everyone except one guy who just wanted to let me know how incredibly stupid he thought I was and that he would never have accepted a counterfeit anything. I think a 102:1 great person to asshole ratio is pretty good. Several people living in Chicago offered their assistance, be it in gathering information or even forming a tough guy squad if necessary.

The most important reply I got was a pointer to an online PI service that does reverse lookups on cell phones. I was already beyond broke, but I figured $85.00 more wouldn't kill me. Twelve hours and $85.00 later, I had a name, an address, and a landline phone number for this guy. The name and his AOL email were eerily close, actually with a last name like Christmas, it would be pretty weird if it didn't match up. I couldn't believe it. A Chicago resident named Melvin Christmas had just ruined my Christmas. I was expecting William Faulkner to come popping out of the pantry at any moment and laugh at me.

I was now ready to call the police. I called the Chicago police department and filed a report. I gave the operator all of my information, including the real name and address I had managed to get. "A detective will contact you within one to two weeks, thank you." One to two weeks?!? I had this guy, I'd done all the work already, all you had to do was go pick him up. I'd even gone ahead and called Fedex and spoken to the Chicago station manager and was assured that the driver would cooperate in identifying the guy if necessary. All they had to do was pick him up. In one to two weeks he could be gone. And all the while my precious Powerbook is sitting god knows where being used by somebody completely undeserving of a Mac. I know in my heart that Mr. Christmas is really a PC guy.

I was furious. Chicago PD weren't going to do anything about this. If they were anything like the New Orleans PD, one to two weeks was likely to turn in to never. I figured I'd call Mr. Christmas myself. Let him know I was going to give him a chance to fix this, and I thought, maybe at least scare him. Let him know he was dealing with someone who would track him down no matter what, even if I had to make a deal with the Prince of Darkness to do it. Mr. Christmas said he didn't even know what email was. Obviously a PC user.

to be continued...

[nickmcghie]

...continued

I kept checking the message boards. Maybe someone would have a better idea. I called the local FBI field office. Agent Jones was very understanding, but let me know that even though this crossed state lines, the field office didn't take anything involving less than $5000. "Try the Chicago PD".

I kept everyone on the Mac boards updated as best I could. On Tuesday I got a useful reply, try the Secret Service, counterfeiting is their jurisdiction. I made my way to the under-renovation Federal Building here in New Orleans. After walking many a dark, scary hallway, found myself at the door of Agent Keith Lopola. Keith came out and heard my case. I had brought copies of all the emails between myself and Steve Matthews/Paul Smith/Mr. Christmas, a copy of the check, and the call journal I had started keeping. Agent Lopola told me the same thing the FBI did, "It falls under our jurisdiction, but we can't take the case." He wanted to let me know that he really felt for me. Thanks. I left the office determined to call and bother him and the Chicago PD everyday for the rest of my life or at least until Mr. Christmas was behind bars.

Finals were fast approaching. It's not very easy to concentrate on school when all you can think about all day is the fact that all of your student loans for the next semester are going to cover this counterfeit check. That and some grubby criminal has your Powerbook. It's enough to drive someone to the drink.

Tuesday night I got an email from someone who had seen my story (http://www.powerpage.org/story.lasso?newsID=10245) posted on O'Grady's Powerpage (http://www.powerpage.org), a Powerbook enthusiast site. George Dunbar had seen the story and thought it sounded eerily similar to his. I called him, we compared notes, and turns out it was the same guy. George forwarded me all of his emails. Everything was the same, word for word, it was like Mr. Christmas just copied and pasted and magically made money. George was in it worse than I was though and had completely given up. He was out $6000 and two computers. He also let me know that there were more victims. He'd talked to at least three other people who had been taken by the same guy, all of whom had just given up. I was not going to give up. That night I dreamed of Mr. Christmas and a baseball bat, some duct tape, and roofing nails.

Wednesday morning I decided I was going to Chicago. I set up another eBay auction under my girlfriend's account, this time for same computer, different city. Three hours later, lo and behold I received an email from eBay user videopro55 (the same one) asking me if I'd like to sell the computer right now for $2500. Oh yes, I'd love to sell the computer, I'll even be there when it gets delivered to make sure it gets "setup properly".

He emailed me a new address and phone number, the phone number again traced back to the same address for Mr. Christmas. I called the Secret Service and the Chicago PD, pleading, all they had to do was be there when Fedex dropped off the package. It was a guaranteed hit, he'd have another counterfeit cashier's check, all you'd have to do is arrest him. Like shooting fish in a barrel. "Sorry, Detective McDonaugh will be out until next Wednesday, can I take a message?" Fine, if the cops won't do it, I decided I'd just Priceline a ticket and be waiting next door when it got dropped off. So I'd know what kind of neighborhood I was looking at, I asked for help again in the Mac boards. Two Chicago residents replied, and the next morning, courtesy of Tim, I had 23 pictures (http://www.remodern.com/chipictures.html) of the house, the cars in the driveway (with license plate numbers) and the neighborhood. I'd like to see a Dell user do something like that at 4:30 in the morning for a complete stranger a thousand miles away. I started planning my trip. I decided I'd leave on Saturday, have the package delivered on Monday, and make it back just in time to screw up on all my finals.

On Friday in preparation for flying up I mapped the new address from the one for Mr. Christmas to see how close it was. As I looked at the map, it hit me. The new address wasn't in Chicago. It was in a suburb, Markham. I googled for the Markham police and 5 minutes later was talking to a very enthusiastic Sargeant Knapp. I had hit the jackpot, the new drop was outside of Chicago jurisdiction and therefore outside of their inattentiveness as well. Sargeant Knapp informed me he loved this kind of thing, even had a UPS and Fedex uniform ready. He'd call Fedex and they would set it up for Tuesday. I was certain I was dreaming. After talking to two detectives in Chicago, an FBI field agent, an agent in the New Orleans field office of the Secret Service, an agent with the L.A. Secret Service and having a conference call with a large group of agents from the Chicago Secret Service, I finally was getting somewhere. And I didn't even have to stand on someone's doorstep with a baseball bat to do it.

I spent the entire weekend on pins and needles. What if Mr. Christmas figured something out between now and Tuesday? All would be lost. I wouldn't even get the chance to confront him on my own. On Monday I spoke with Sgt. Knapp to make sure everything was ready to go. I had sent him a package with all of my documentation (he didn't have email), and I tried to explain what all the email stuff meant as best I could. He had worked everything out with Fedex and they were set for the delivery on Tuesday.

I called my brother in Nashville and had him send the package. I had set everything up to be coming from there so that Mr. Christmas wouldn't get suspicious. I could barely sleep Monday night. All I could think about was something going wrong and my only chance at getting this guy being missed. I wanted to update everyone on the Mac boards, but I had to keep it quiet until I knew something was going to happen.

Tuesday afternoon Sgt. Knapp called. They had tried the delivery but no one was home. I just wanted to scream. The board users kept posting how the suspense was driving them nuts. Well, it was going to give me an aneurism. A million possibilities went through my head. Maybe he had somebody working at Fedex who tipped him off, maybe I worded something in one of my email a little off. Sgt. Knapp called me back to let me know they would try the delivery again tomorrow. He also wanted to let me know that they had intercepted another package that was being sent to the same address. Looks like he'd already struck again, thankfully the lady from New York will get her computer back. He also told me that he was definitely going to keep pursuing this, and that oddly enough, the address I'd given him was also related to another fraud case, but this one much bigger (hundreds of thousands) involving a certain Chicago franchise I won't mention. So maybe I had led them to something bigger than just some asshole counterfeiting cashier's checks.

Today I had finals all day. I'm a 4.0 honors student. I've had a 4.0 all semester. I'm not sure if I'll keep that after today. I just couldn't sleep last night. All I could think about was Mr. Christmas and the delivery. I couldn't study either. So I winged it, I'll get my grades tomorrow. I called Sgt. Knapp at 2:45. He told me he was on his way back to the house. They'd already made the delivery and arrested the guy. He had more than $10,000 in counterfeit cashier's checks waiting for deliveries.

*I* got him.

I'm right now waiting on Sgt. Knapp to fax me a copy of his mug shot for posterity. Then I'm going to go celebrate. Sgt. Knapp said the guy was cooperating and he was going to try to recover my laptop. I'm hopeful, but I don't expect it. I might not ever get my computer back, but at least there is one less asshole on the street. When will criminals learn? You just shouldn't mess with Mac people.

For everyone on all the boards who offered their help and encouragement, I thank you. This would have been a lot harder without you. If you're ever in New Orleans, look me up and I'll buy you a beer. I've still got to figure out how I'm paying to college next semester, but I'll keep some beer money set aside for ya'll.

Oh yeah, and if there are any lawyers in the Chicago area who can file a civil suit against this guy for damages (yeah I know I'm not going to collect) please contact me, misterye a t yahoo d o t com

[crazycrazypete]

Last summer, the exact same thing happened to me, only they got a 22 inch Cinema Display I couldn't use. My story is almost identical. I just assumed I was screwed, although I wanted to do what this guy did, except I didn't expect people to help so well. I wish I had been involved. Now if only I could get my $2300 back...

[Glossybear]

Did this guys only try to scam people selling Mac hardware??

If so then he is even more deserving of the aforementioned roofing nails...

[XGumption]

Originally posted by big
I'm amazed, this should be headlined in the paper....

Hola mundo. Funny you mention it...

The Chicago Tribune called me tonight for comments...i suppose there will be a story on this soon - keep your eyes peeled.

Been reading MacRumors since day one, but never wanted to raise my voice in the forums till now. I'm so proud of everybody (snif snif...tear). I'm just a little part of this Mac community that helped Eric out. I took the pics around Chi-town. Crazy? You bet! I like to do my part for a good cause. Your Mac is my Mac! Hey, it helps when there is Dunkin Donuts open at 4:30 a.m. with hot chocolate :D :D I was previously thinking of a career in design... but maybe i should look into spy detective work ;-) Hey man, mean people suck and everybody gets what the deserve! All i think we have left is to find someone with a lawyer connection in the Chicago area. Anyone have some ideas?

Ya for the Mac community! Though, it's not the computers that bind us... i think good people are just drawn to good things! :D

[Stike]

I truly think, Eric should be awarded for that activity in some way - he surely has taken enough bad things happening to him right before christmas (how could someone like that have that name...).

I vote for a special status that Eric aka keltorsori should be awarded on macrumors. Something like "Fraud Hunter" I suggest. ;)
What do you guys think?
Arn, are you listening?

(edit: Xgumption, that quote simply hits the spot! Thank you, man! :) )

[SlowX]

WHAT A STORY!!!

And thanks for the "mirror," nickmcghie!
:)

--x

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by TheInevitable
I wish I had been familiar with these boards when I got ripped off on eBay. I payed $800 for a G4 tower and never saw it. The dude kept giving me excuses and promises every week for 3 months, then disapeared. His eBay ID was ibuyselltrade. If anyone knows anything about this, I would appreciate some feedback. Thanks guys.

Check your PMs

[buffsldr]

I am sorry, but this story just rocks. I smell a movie of the week, or at least an ABC After School Special (do they still have those?).

[nickmcghie]

Originally posted by SlowX
WHAT A STORY!!!

And thanks for the "mirror," nickmcghie!
:)

--x

no problem.. anything for my fellow mac bros ;)

[moby1]

I saw the first post on this story and started reading the threads.
I felt really bad but I really didn't think anything would come of it.

This is really a great story - best Holiday story this year!

[allengraph]

Wonderful!!!

[MikeH]

I love stories like that, it's put a big smile on face for the rest of the day :)

[BenderBot1138]

I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade... but this has very terrible parallels to the incident in Los Angeles where we watched one man throw a brick into another man's head while the whole thing was broadcast live from an overhead helecopter. It is pure and simple unlawful mob vigilantism.

I don't condone the behavior of the poster who requested this help from person's who are not legally entitled to investigate or handle such complaints. There is no excuse for asking people who are not legally entitled Law Enforcement Officials to become involved with a complaint.

This person could be mentally ill for all anyone knows, or a rapist seeking to have pictures of some girls house. He veiled his appeal for help in a plea for assistance, but he may in fact have been a stalker for all anyone knew.

There is no evidence to corroborate this poster's story, other than he managed to get at least 23 pictures of someone's house. I would remind all those who applaud this behavior that there is absolutely no evidence other than the poster's word, that the person he was railing against actually stole anything from him. This may have been simply a clever individuals attempt to harrass someone for a perceived wrong.

Using clever words, the poster said "sic em", and some overzealous people responded. His clever words appealed to many using words like "I'm poor" and "victimized". But we have no evidence of either... particularly the victim part.

Vigilantism is wrong. Let the Lawful authorities handle this type of problem, or the next "23 pictures" someone takes of your house, cars, and property may be of yours.

To the poster who requested this help... I think you are the worst type of person and I wouldn't help you walk across the street without genuine proof from the police that you actually needed it.

:cool:

[zac4mac]

Times up, get out of the Gene Pool now.

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade... but this has very terrible parallels to the incident in Los Angeles where we watched one man throw a brick into another man's head while the whole thing was broadcast live from an overhead helecopter. It is pure and simple unlawful mob vigilantism.

I don't condone the behavior of the poster who requested this help from person's who are not legally entitled to investigate or handle such complaints. There is no excuse for asking people who are not legally entitled Law Enforcement Officials to become involved with a complaint.

This person could be mentally ill for all anyone knows, or a rapist seeking to have pictures of some girls house. He veiled his appeal for help in a plea for assistance, but he may in fact have been a stalker for all anyone knew.

There is no evidence to corroborate this poster's story, other than he managed to get at least 23 pictures of someone's house. I would remind all those who applaud this behavior that there is absolutely no evidence other than the poster's word, that the person he was railing against actually stole anything from him. This may have been simply a clever individuals attempt to harrass someone for a perceived wrong.

Using clever words, the poster said "sic em", and some overzealous people responded. His clever words appealed to many using words like "I'm poor" and "victimized". But we have no evidence of either... particularly the victim part.

Vigilantism is wrong. Let the Lawful authorities handle this type of problem, or the next "23 pictures" someone takes of your house, cars, and property may be of yours.

To the poster who requested this help... I think you are the worst type of person and I wouldn't help you walk across the street without genuine proof from the police that you actually needed it.

:cool:

Here are the differences:
The defrauded party tried (unsuccessfully) to pursue every Law Enforcement avenue. They systematically let him down

The secondary parties did nothing illegal (that's been mentioned). If you ask me to photograph an address, and I don't tresspass, I've done nothing illegal.

The defrauded party has used the free exchange of information to reduce the legwork required by Law Enforcement.

The defrauded party never lost his rationale, although he thought about it (you would have too).

The evidence has come from MANY defrauded parties, not one. It is not his word against his. It's their collective word, against his.

Remind me not to help you next time you need it....

[crossed-over]

Bravo! This was an amazing story! Best story I've read in a long time. That's including professional, and nationwide newspapers. No joke. Faith in the good-at-heart... faith in the Mac community.

:)

[nickmcghie]

hey BenderBot1138, you have got to be joking right?

[ajakeski]

Why in the name of all that is holy would a person ship a $3000 piece of equipment to a stranger C.O.D.? If this isn't asking for trouble what is?

Ebay is full of scammers!

[TheInevitable]

Well, there is one less scammer on eBay now, thanks to our friend and his $3000 COD.

[Codemonkey]

BenderBot1138, those are some big words there. If someone came up to you, in apparent and obvious pain, saying they _think_ their appendix exploded... would you tell them to get lost, or ask them to get a bill of health from their GP?

I sincerely hope you're just a grumpy troll with nothing better to do around the holidays, and you really don't mean what you said.

And, for the record, I WILL help you cross the street.

<shrugs> Merry Christmas.

[Chisholm]

Originally posted by Codemonkey
BenderBot1138, those are some big words there. If someone came up to you, in apparent and obvious pain, saying they _think_ their appendix exploded... would you tell them to get lost, or ask them to get a bill of health from their GP?

I sincerely hope you're just a grumpy troll with nothing better to do around the holidays, and you really don't mean what you said.

And, for the record, I WILL help you cross the street.

<shrugs> Merry Christmas.

That is TOO beautifull!! But maybe someones bended benderbot the wrong way. Oh well, kinda' gets me like A Christmas Story when the kid get's his bb gun and all. But oh, that leg lamp, where can I get one of those?

[Codemonkey]

Originally posted by Chisholm


That is TOO beautifull!! But maybe someones bended benderbot the wrong way. Oh well, kinda' gets me like A Christmas Story when the kid get's his bb gun and all. But oh, that leg lamp, where can I get one of those?

Oh, man, A Christmas Story is a classic!

"You'll shoot your eye out!"

Anyway. Peace.

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
Vigilantism is wrong. Let the Lawful authorities handle this type of problem, or the next "23 pictures" someone takes of your house, cars, and property may be of yours.

You make some great points bender and maybe we should all be gald that this wasn't the stalker scenario that you vividly painted. Is it illegal in Chicao to go out and take photos of someone's car or house? Was all the information that people obtained for him considered public knowledge? At what point did anyone do anything illegal for him? People standing up for themselves - that is what this country was built on. (well, that and tobacco)

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Nipsy

Here are the differences:
The defrauded party tried (unsuccessfully) to pursue every Law Enforcement avenue. They systematically let him down

The secondary parties did nothing illegal (that's been mentioned). If you ask me to photograph an address, and I don't tresspass, I've done nothing illegal.

The defrauded party has used the free exchange of information to reduce the legwork required by Law Enforcement.

The defrauded party never lost his rationale, although he thought about it (you would have too).

The evidence has come from MANY defrauded parties, not one. It is not his word against his. It's their collective word, against his.

Remind me not to help you next time you need it....

I think you raise normal concerns for most people and good points Nipsy... and again... my objection is that we have no one's word for this other than the person who requested vigilanties to come out of the wood work.

I'd like to address a few of your genuine concerns.

First, you mentioned photographing an address is not illegal in this context. It in fact is, and falls broadly under a very well recognized branch of law that deals with Watching And Besetting. A general example which proves this branch of law in fact exists includes Anti-Stalking laws, designed to keep either a stalker or their agents from invading someone's privacy without lawful authority (a court's order).

Second, we have no evidence the person pursued every legal avenue. For all we know this person is a fugitive from justice who cannot go to the law with legitimate concerns because law enforcement officers would arrest them for some other crime, or perhaps they have a restraining order not to approach the person they are requesting help in dealing with. In the case where the person has a restraining order, a person who takes 23 pictures of their victims property would be guilty of Aiding And Abetting a criminal in the commision of a crime.

The Supreme Court makes it clear that their are limitations on the free exchange of information. When such information exchange violates another persons legal privacy and freedom, it is illegal. An example that proves this branch of law in fact exists includes the laws that make illegal the release of information pertaining to minors and rape victims.

This is a slippery slope to be sure, and we do NOT have anything other than the word of an individual. Even a group of individuals over electronic mediums does not constitute lawful authority to investigate and invade the privacy of a citizen of the United States. That person is entitled to feel safe in the fact that private citizens will not take the law into their own hands... that only legally state authorized persons will engage in such activities.

Shame for those who would condone such behavior... because I am positive they would be the first would cry out foul when one or several overzealous individuals showed up in their neighborhood and took 23 pictures of their home and family based on the word of a stranger.

If that doesn't convince you, then you should consider that in President Bush's neighborhood, it is legal to carry an unconceiled sidearm, and you are entitled to defend your property and personal privacy with lethal force.

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

Bender, lets face it, the legal system, and Police are undermaned. The Chicago PD looked at this as something from NOLA, and did not have time, when they have plenty of crime to look at in the Chicagoland area. This is not about the failure of the Police, although it is disturbing, it is about how people should take matters into their own hands when they have to.

The young man did what he had to do to protect himself. The theft was no different than someone breaking into his house and stealing his TV. He pursured the individual through legal means and developed a case that he provided to law enforcement, and they acted on it.

His actions have already saved at least one other person from the same nightmare that he is in right now.

Personally, I think he should be commended, and is an asset to the US citizenry.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138

I personally would like to see the people who took the 23 pictures of some person's house put in jail.


Why? What law did they violate? How did they do wrong to the criminal that stole from this kid? Explain this to me please!

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Bender, lets face it, the legal system, and Police are undermaned.

This may be true, but that isn't a licence to take the law into our private hands. It might at best represent a need to lobby for more resources for state authorized law enforcement.

Good Points... Nipsy really makes me think as well... but still I obey lawful state authorities, and do not take the law into my own hands.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Why? What law did they violate? How did they do wrong to the criminal that stole from this kid? Explain this to me please!

Excellent point.... I actually edited my original post significantly when I noticed the point you correctly addressed.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Why? What law did they violate? How did they do wrong to the criminal that stole from this kid? Explain this to me please!

We also don't know that this individual did this... You used the word criminal, but that implies this individual has had a trail and been convicted of this crime.

I don't see that. We cannot try and convict people in public courts of opinion... we must submit ourselves to our lawfully elected and selected authorities.

I would point out that if this person was a state labeled criminal and not merely a person informally accused by a private citizen, the police would eventually get this person... but all evidence I see points the fact the state authorized authorities either did not find merit in the complaint, or were in fact acting on it according to the Laws of our land.

We cannot and must not abondon the rule of law.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by nickmcghie
hey BenderBot1138, you have got to be joking right?

How would you feel if someone was stalking your daughter, and perhaps appealed to a bunch of overzealous nuts to put pressure on your daughter by making up a foolish story about someone stealing their computer... asking for someone to Watch and Beset your private residence?

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

Bender,
He did not make a trip to chicago and beat the guy senseless. He did not violate any law, he did not have any help from a person that did. He investigated. That is it. He did the right thing. Criminals have to learn that victims will not lay down and take things without backlash.

You have to understand that he did nothing wrong, nor break any law.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by cr2sh


...that is what this country was built on. (well, that and tobacco)

Good point about the tobacco... Any law enforcement official will tell you there is a very broad branch of the law that forbids acts associated with Watching And Besetting by persons not lawfully authorized to do so, whether directly or by engaging some third party to do it.

A person's right to privacy and assurance that only lawfully authorized officials will take legal action against his or her person is not in the public domain, and moreover, is protected by very powerful law enforcement principles and officials.

It is of primary importance for everyone to realize that all legal complaints and prosecutions are the legal property of the state, and not individuals.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Bender,
He did not make a trip to chicago and beat the guy senseless. He did not violate any law, he did not have any help from a person that did. He investigated. That is it. He did the right thing. Criminals have to learn that victims will not lay down and take things without backlash.

You have to understand that he did nothing wrong, nor break any law.

Ultimately what I am saying is that since I have not heard the case... I cannot determine this individuals guilt. How can I say this person is either innocent or guilty... or for that matter, how can anyone here say this person is guilty without the sayso of the lawful authorities...

No... when vigilantism raises it's ugly head, or worse convinces lawful authorities to turn a blind eye to such actions, we can end up with a Witch Hunt in Salem or may Hollywood to root out Communists. Even maybe we'll all just decide to hate Jews like Hitler did... No... let there be no mistake that this overzealous pride in finding out some information is little more than vigilantism.

We are all treating a person we have never met as a criminal - using words like criminal and we have absolutely no evidence (this complainers word isn't evidence) that anyone has committed any crime here on the interenet. It is entirely possible this complainer never ever owned a computer ever.

No, No, No... the only movie of the week subject here relates to the unbelievable witch hunt that is possible and the actual lengths to which some people are willing to go to make themselve feel good or justify unlawfully invading others lawfully protected privacy... this is about just how fragile our freedom and democracy really is rather than some triumph of vigilantistic behavior in the face of the thinnest of accusations.

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

Bender,
The man handed the cop a fradulent cashiers check, and then was arrested. Yes, that is pretty good evidence. Also, he confesed. What else do you need?

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Bender,
The man handed the cop a fradulent cashiers check, and then was arrested. Yes, that is pretty good evidence. Also, he confesed. What else do you need?

Am I to take anyone's word that a police officer was actually involved in this? I have no evidence other than posts on the internet.

If in fact - and I have no evidence of this - a police officer actually was involved, I can only say "This time maybe an actual crime was present"... but what about next time though? What about when it's some stalker after your daughter... or maybe some child molester who want her pictures?

Look at the most serious problem with this whole stinky mess... an individual may have been foolish enough to send a computer to someone without actual payment in his hand. Everything on eBay warns against this stupid behavior. I repeat stupid behaviour.

Then, to compound his stupidity, he appealed to the stupidity of others to act with the EXACT SAME KIND OF STUPIDITY that first got him into the problem he claims exists.

Only a fool would act foolishly to help a fool out of his foolish predicaments.

:cool:

[solvs]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138

Ultimately what I am saying is that since I have not heard the case...

Have you read this story at all? The kid had proof that he was ripped off. He brought it to the police, they couldn't (didn't) help, he came to us with the info. No one violated any laws, stalking or otherwise. If he was just some guy saying "hey, someone stole from me, let's get him" it would be a different story. This is what private investigators are there for.

I know you were just trying to be the voice of reason, but he should be commended for NOT going all vigilante on that thief.

He did all of this openly and legally.

[Backtothemac]

“I don’t know much about computers, but I have a passion for this kind of work,” Knapp said. “And Eric had made it so easy. He’d really worked to put together this nice little package that couldn’t be ignored. ”

Knapp arranged to accompany the Federal Express driver making the delivery. He said he arrested Christmas after the suspect accepted the package; a search of the house turned up another $10,000 in counterfeit cashier’s checks. Federal Express also managed to intercept another computer sent to the house by an unsuspecting woman in New York, Knapp said."

that is from the Chicago Tribune today.

As for the other subject, you are talking about two totally different things.

Some stalker / pediphile that is after my daughter, planing a crime, and a victim defending themselves are two totally different things!

The stalker / pediphile would more than likely come up missing.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by solvs


Have you read this story at all? The kid had proof that he was ripped off. He brought it to the police, they couldn't (didn't) help, he came to us with the info. No one violated any laws, stalking or otherwise. If he was just some guy saying "hey, someone stole from me, let's get him" it would be a different story. This is what private investigators are there for.

I know you were just trying to be the voice of reason, but he should be commended for NOT going all vigilante on that thief.

He did all of this openly and legally.

What proof do you have that this guy actually had proof? It's heresay... just a RUMOR.

To respond to the vigilanty-by-degree defence... there aren't degrees... If we sacrifice our freedoms for the small transgressions, then what will be do when larger and larger trangressions present themselves, chewed, swallowed, and digested?

Again I repeat... this is a very slippery slope.

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


What proof do you have that this guy actually had proof? It's heresay... just a RUMOR.

:cool:

Are you this dense? He had a delivery with the guys signature, the guy sent him a fraudulent check. He attempted to hide his real identiy. Joined ebay under a bogus name. Did the same thing to other people.

the guy tried to buy another laptop from the kid. He then took delivery of it and handed the police another fraudulent document. Had $10,000 more of bad cashiers checks, and confessed. Jesus, is that not proof!

Man, you would make a great attorney for the ACLU.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Are you this dense? He had a delivery with the guys signature, the guy sent him a fraudulent check. He attempted to hide his real identiy. Joined ebay under a bogus name. Did the same thing to other people.

the guy tried to buy another laptop from the kid. He then took delivery of it and handed the police another fraudulent document. Had $10,000 more of bad cashiers checks, and confessed. Jesus, is that not proof!

Man, you would make a great attorney for the ACLU.

Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each worker may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!

1984 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/1984.html)

[solvs]

Originally posted by Backtothemac

Are you this dense? He had a delivery with the guys signature, the guy sent him a fraudulent check. He attempted to hide his real identiy. Joined ebay under a bogus name. Did the same thing to other people.

the guy tried to buy another laptop from the kid. He then took delivery of it and handed the police another fraudulent document. Had $10,000 more of bad cashiers checks, and confessed. Jesus, is that not proof!


Thank you. That's what I meant. Proof. I don't see where you get the "losing our freedoms" part Bender. And the "what if he's a pedophile?" thing is really stretching.

He had proof. Gathered more. Took it to the police.

How many pedophiles and stalkers go to the police?

I suggest you re-read the original posts:

"Please help! Fraud victim
I recently was the victim of a fairly large fraud ($3000 for me is a lot of money). A man in Chicago bought a brand-new Powerbook 867 with a ton of extras from me Fedex COD (certified funds). Everything seemed OK, I've done this several times before with no problems. I even talked to the guy on the phone before I sent it out (I have his number). Turns out the cashier's check I got back was forged, phony, fraudulent. No such bank even. So now I'm out not only my computer, but also the $3000 and now my finances are in complete disaster area since I had already spent a good deal of the money on christmas shopping.

My question, and plea for help:
I figure this guy had the package sent to a drop, doing a reverse lookup on the address yields three phone numbers. Doing a reverse on the phone number he gave me, it turns out is a Nextel cell-phone, so I can't get a valid address without paying a private investigator. I've already filed police reports in Chicago, IL and New Orleans, LA (where I live). What I need help in is getting this guy's real address from his cell-phone. If there are any PI's out there or anyone with Nextel who can help, please let me know. Chicago PD isn't really going to do anything about this and I've got a trip coming up to Chicago, I thought I might at least try to track the guy down, at least have him arrested.

If you have any assistance or can help me in any way, please let me know. I'm a student and this much money is going to put me under."

There are a lot of bad people out there who could've taken advantage of our kindness, but how many would have gone to so much trouble? And had proof? And risked getting caught? It's not like he went straight from accusations to taking pictures of some guys house. There was a lot of work in-between.

You made your point. We get it. But dude, justice was done. We helped a fraud victim. Through legal channels. Nobody was hurt. Feel good for the kid. Feel good that a criminal was caught. Let it go.

(I know, nobody was hurt - this time. But it could have been much worse)

[cr2sh]

Bender makes a great argument and he's sticking to his guns - even though he's getting mad flamed. I appreciate what you're saying and the watching and besetting is very interesting. Maybe we did get too excited and maybe some of us went too far - next time I know I'll look at the situation a little closer, with your points in mind.

Let's look on the bright side though. Despite our bad judgment a suspect was arrested. Also, if nothing else this case proves that Mac users are a dedicated, passionate, close-knit group - who do seem to care about total strangers. Lastly, (and most importantly) we're getting the 970 in less than a year.... that's the trump that makes all other bad news go away. :cool:

[Geetar]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


Today, we celebrate the first glorious anniversary of the Information Purification Directives. We have created, for the first time in all history, a garden of pure ideology. Where each worker may bloom secure from the pests of contradictory and confusing truths. Our Unification of Thoughts is more powerful a weapon than any fleet or army on earth. We are one people, with one will, one resolve, one cause. Our enemies shall talk themselves to death and we will bury them with their own confusion. We shall prevail!

1984 (http://www.uriah.com/apple-qt/1984.html)


Congrats on having read 1984. No prizes, however, for having failed to see that it is YOU YOURSELF occupying the questionable position posited in a great work of fiction. Your advocacy of "innocent until the authorities pronounce you guilty" leaves the citizenry entirely disenfranchized from certain knowledge of truth, truth having become a malleable concept dispensed from on-high........:rolleyes:

We have to be capable of individually determining truth to function......if you can't see this, well sorry but tough. And no-one here is advocating vigilanteism as far as I can tell.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by Geetar



Congrats on having read 1984. No prizes, however, for having failed to see that it is YOU YOURSELF occupying the questionable position posited in a great work of fiction. Your advocacy of "innocent until the authorities pronounce you guilty" leaves the citizenry entirely disenfranchized from certain knowledge of truth, truth having become a malleable concept dispensed from on-high........:rolleyes:

We have to be capable of individually determining truth to function......if you can't see this, well sorry but tough. And no-one here is advocating vigilanteism as far as I can tell.

Ture Dat! Way to preach the truth!

[BenderBot1138]

If I said to you: "Your Rights are your Right" would you need them?

As you've probably noticed by now, the contrary opinion to the one I project is that individuals have the right to take the law into their own hands. I have suggested that only the state bears that right - and for good reason.

I must admit... quite a quandry... we stand drunk with our power... mad with our own self-importance... if 1984 was meant to oppose a system in which it was possible to get each and every citizen watching their neighbor, can we say or read into it that the message it offers somehow supports the position that freedom is defined as our right to abrogate others right to that very freedom. Or does that palely defeat some aspect of our character.

Some would say this example merely demonstrates how weakly a human mind can resist the temptation to behave with a poorly controlled animal impulse.

It is worth noting that while the cochroach steals a crumb, and sneaks into the light when all is quiet, nothing will take away the fact that it has no right to do so.


:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Geetar

And no-one here is advocating vigilanteism as far as I can tell.

... not "officially" at least until you typed that no-one was advocating it... now it's official.

:cool:

[Geetar]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
we stand drunk with our power... mad with our own self-importance...


But the State IS us........where the Sam Hill do you think a consensual legal and penal code comes from? Are you advocating some form of enlightened totalitarianism or have you just forgotten whence the legal impulse originates?

This thread now belongs elsewhere.

[solvs]

Remember this the next time someone rips you off or does something illegal towards you, but the authorities are too busy with "real crimes" to help you. Or if you come here to ask a question and no one wants to answer you because it's not their place. Let's hope this doesn't happen.

If an elderly person is getting mugged on the street, should you do nothing? Call the police? What if they never come? Maybe it's a child being beaten, or a woman being raped, or one of a hundred senarios? Where do you draw the line?

When you can help.

There is a fine line between justice and vengeance. And this was not vengeance. Nor stalking an innocent person. The victim was a college student asking for help in a public forum. He got it. Yay for us, especially because no one got hurt. Isn't it the responsibility of the free society to govern itself? Protect and help each other and all that.

Just be happy for the guy, and let it go.

I do have one question to ask... how would you feel if you were that ripped off kid, and no one would help you?

[solvs]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138

As you've probably noticed by now, the contrary opinion to the one I project is that individuals have the right to take the law into their own hands. I have suggested that only the state bears that right - and for good reason.

we stand drunk with our power...


No one took the law into there own hands. Everyone stayed within the system. The State asked for evidence, it was given to them, they took care of the rest. We are happy that justice was served and a criminal caught. I would be more worried of the State being drunk with it's own power. Perhaps you should re-read "1984", because you seem to be arguing for it. Not against it.

And perhaps you should read the full story of this case, because you seem to be unaware of many of the facts.

It is worth noting that while the cochroach steals a crumb, and sneaks into the light when all is quiet, nothing will take away the fact that it has no right to do so.[/QUOTE]

Do you realize you just contradicted yourself again? The cochroach (the thief) has been captured. He could have been squashed, but as I mentioned this wasn't about vengeance. The kid was wronged, he/we made it right. WHAT"S THE PROBLEM? You should be happy for him.

I suggest you read the whole story. We get your opinion, and yes we agree that vigilantism is wrong. You can't always trust these "please help me" stories. It could have been a scam, a stalker, a rapist. It wasn't. You're forgetting the records, the filed police reports, and the fact that some people actually KNOW THE VICTIM.

The bad guy was a bad guy, and he was caught. Legally.

(Don't you just love these heated debates? Well, as long as you're not the Devil's Advocate)

[macmax]

Hey BenderBot1138:

Come on.
I am truly happy that someone got a robber.
If it happens to you, wouldn't you want some help?

As for Eric , well done , big hugs from the caribbean, i hope you never get stolen again, but if you do, i hope it is down hear so i can come with some friends, get the asshole and do whatever i want with him.
Yea , you read right , whatever, even stucking a boot in his arse or.....
hugs from me and i think the whole mac comunity is proud of you.
merry christmas!!!:D

[davebo]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Are you this dense? He had a delivery with the guys signature, the guy sent him a fraudulent check. He attempted to hide his real identiy. Joined ebay under a bogus name. Did the same thing to other people.

the guy tried to buy another laptop from the kid. He then took delivery of it and handed the police another fraudulent document. Had $10,000 more of bad cashiers checks, and confessed. Jesus, is that not proof!


You've missed Benderbot's point.

He, like you and I, read the account on the internet. The account mentioned these details.

His point, was, that ALL HE KNOWS is that a message was posted to a website which claimed all these things. ANYONE can post ANYTHING to a website. It doesn't necessarily make it true.

Show him the physical shipping receipt. Show him the physical document from the bank that the cashier's check was fradulent. Provide tape recordings of the calls to the poilce. Provide a contact number for the police department, or a reference number for his case. Things that can be confirmed in the real world - THAT constitutes proof.

You're willing to take on faith that the author of the message is telling the truth, which I think is a perfectly admirable character trait. Benderbot simply isn't willing to be so credulous - which makes me think he's been burned before, or is an exceptionally cautious individual. Also admirable, IMHO.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got a date with Brittany Spears tonight, and I don't want to keep her waiting any longer than I already have. :D

[Backtothemac]

Well, I can tell you this. Proof is that the Chicago Tribune ran the story. My company is donating an iBook to him for his courage in the way that he handled himself, and the request that people donate to charaties instead of him.

He seems like a class act, and by the way, there is an officer Knapp at the Police Department that he talked about.

True story. Believe it or not.

[davebo]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
Proof is that the Chicago Tribune ran the story.

Which can be found here (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-0212140102dec14,1,3277429.story)
(free registration required, blah blah blah).

I didn't doubt his story. I just thought Benderbot raised an interesting point (namely, how willing we are to believe what we read from an unknown source) which wasn't being properly appreciated.

Of course, it's possible that the Trib's reporters are being hoodwinked, too . . .
:p

[Geetar]

Originally posted by davebo


You've missed Benderbot's point.




No, he doesn't HAVE a point. We've been over this already. He (bless his little cotton socks) has read a bit, thought about it and come to a set of entirely unwarranted conclusions.

Either that or he's rather unconvincingly playing Devil's Advocate. In which case, God help him.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Geetar

No, he doesn't HAVE a point. We've been over this already. He (bless his little cotton socks) has read a bit, thought about it and come to a set of entirely unwarranted conclusions.

Either that or he's rather unconvincingly playing Devil's Advocate. In which case, God help him.
You bring up some interesting points Geetar... but Stop for a moment... and imagine something like this is possible...

Help!!! I'm an innocent victim!!! My waif child, who is tragically disabled since birth, was defrauded by Geetar, a poster on a website... Can someone please help me track down Geetar, and take as many pictures of him as humanly possible? My poor waif child has been crying for days since Geetar convinced him to sell his only means of connection to the internet for a fraudulent rubber check... We are so poor, we have to eat last year's work boots boiled in lawnmower clipping broth. We love Apple Computers, and all Apple users (especially those who post on internet sites). My cries to the Authorities have been unaddressed, mostly because they are unable to help my poor waif child, who has been disabled since birth, with such a small fraud... Staff Sgt. Knapster cannot help... my tiny undernourished waif child loves Apple, and all people who use Apple Computers. Please help my waif child to rejoin the Apple Community."

;) See what I mean ;) prove that I'm not just saying all this...

Disclaimer Geetar NEVER defrauded or would even think of defrauding anyone... Geetar is very honorable, and a very intelligent and enlightened person. The above is pure fiction.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by solvs


It is worth noting that while the cochroach steals a crumb, and sneaks into the light when all is quiet, nothing will take away the fact that it has no right to do so.

Do you realize you just contradicted yourself again? The cochroach (the thief) has been captured. He could have been squashed, but as I mentioned this wasn't about vengeance. The kid was wronged, he/we made it right. WHAT"S THE PROBLEM? You should be happy for him....


Interesting that you found that meaning of the two possible meanings available in the context of this situation... Do you agree with the other possible meaning as well?

:cool:

[XGumption]

Originally posted by davebo
You've missed Benderbot's point.

Yes, we've all missed Benderbot's point. The point is we all have approached this in retrospect as a "means-to-an-end" story. Hey, a bad guy was caught, so it doesn't matter what had to happen to crack the case. Right? Maybe - Maybe not.

Benderbot is questioning the fact that we all blindly followed what we read based on one person’s story of one incident. Here is my response-

I did not know Eric, but I saw something in him that I see in myself. A genuine person. I did do research before I decided to help, and that’s why I didn’t chime in to help until the very last days when he already had almost all of the pieces together. Seeing as how Eric has been pretty involved in the Mac community over the years, I did searches for his posts on the Internet over the last few years. I read his words; I got a feel for him. I saw that he was in fact a real person, with a few email addresses, and documented history that preceded him as an honest kind of guy. I then contacted other people who posted notes on the message boards that had said, “hey this happened to me too”. I made sure they were involved and told similar stories. Only then did I decide to believe this could possibly be true and offered to help.

Next, I echo Benderbot's statement that Vigilantism is wrong. As defined, vigilantism is taking of law enforcement into one's own hands. However, nothing that anyone did to help was a means to enforce a law. All the information gathered for free on the Internet, the information gathered from reverse-lookup services, and the information gathered in Markham via photographs was nothing more than an exchange of information. All the information exchanged WAS legally available. In terms of Watching And Besetting laws, my photographs were all of public view from public property on one occasion without persistence. Personally, I would not mind someone photographing my neighborhood. But that’s just because my pacifist ways lend me to have a belief in the general good will and intentions of individuals.

But anyways…getting back off your point…

As a means-to-an-end kind of guy, I am damn proud of what everyone did to help Eric. And I’ll be there to help the next person.

Benderbot, you should be proud to see that although the motives were not grounded in fact, the thoughts of the collective (involving baseball bats and the such) and the actions of the few more involved (peaceful research) were radically different. Eric found a way to have a legally entitled Law Enforcement Official actual enforce the law. This was the point of contact in which the rights of the accused person became violated and this was when a law officer was properly involved.

Oh yah, and I would gladly help you walk across the street without genuine proof from the police that you actually needed it. I think it’s sad that you have such low hope for humanity and such distanced distrust in the genuine nature of people. I fear society is tearing itself apart in an endless circle of isolation and fear with attitudes like that. It seems you believe in a world where perfect justice may be attained by a righteous legal system of justice, laws, and enforcement. This however isn't how it is out here. Please look at the issues we face today around the world. There are many ugly situations and usually more gray solutions than black and white outcomes. Everything cannot be controlled.

Put yourself in Eric’s shoes. After three failed attempts to get assistance from different law enforcement agencies from multiple states, living a thousand miles away, and being in the red for $3000…. What would you YOURSELF do if you KNEW that there was someone scamming ebay sellers at a rate of almost once per week for thousands of dollars each?

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by macmax
Hey BenderBot1138:

...As for Eric... i hope you never get stolen again, but if you do, i hope it is down hear so i can come with some friends, get the asshole and do whatever i want with him. Yea , you read right , whatever, even stucking a boot in his arse or.....
hugs from me and i think the whole mac comunity is proud of you.
merry christmas!!!:D



. .wow.


:eek:

[Geetar]

Benderbot,

Trust me I DO understand the point you're trying to get across. The only problem here is you've effectively divorced the common weal from the legal process. In the UK, we call that throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

Since the issue of surveillance is the only legally-contentious point at issue in this case we're beating to death (and believe me, it's only mildly contentious, at that) let's look at that.

On the one hand, we can have a nation of self-appointed "nosy neighbours" a-la-homeland security. Or we can have a "neighbourhood watch" as in the usually hands-off UK.

On the other hand, we can have Statist surveillance of our every waking moment. Or we can have every neighbour pathologically bent on reporting every real or imagined transgression a-la-Soviet era Russia etc.

We're going to have to put up with one of the above, like it or not. We're going to get something in the middle most likely. If the ordinary person feels removed from the process, we've entered the world not of Orwell (your basic fallacy) but of Kafka in "The Trial". I'd rather keep the people I live amongst in the loop, as it were.

Believe me, we're entering an era of increased intrusion into the private domain.....9/11 has ensured that, although I believe it was inevitable, given the technology at the State's (and everyone else's) disposal. We're going to have to live lives that can stand that level if inspection, like it or not.

I can. Can you?


Again, can we move this to Community or something?

[nickmcghie]

Originally posted by Geetar
Benderbot,

Trust me I DO understand the point you're trying to get across. The only problem here is you've effectively divorced the common weal from the legal process. In the UK, we call that throwing the baby out with the bath-water.Right on brother! I think we all get Benderbot's point.. the problem is that he's just going way overboard and making too big of a deal about the whole thing! Pessimistic, disgruntled, harsh, peevish, and unneighborly people like him have few friends and many enemies. Personally, I hope he never posts again because my world would be a happier place if I never have to hear the words that come out of his mouth.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by nickmcghie
Right on brother! I think we all get Benderbot's point...

I'm glad you agree with the points I project ... remember, someone is protecting your right to feel secure from that special someone who is using clever words to impassion overzealous webnuts to invade your privacy and security.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Geetar
Benderbot,

Trust me I DO understand the point you're trying to get across. The only problem here is you've effectively divorced the common weal from the legal process. In the UK, we call that throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

...

On the other hand, we can have Statist surveillance of our every waking moment. ...

We're going to have to put up with one of the above, like it or not. We're going to get something in the middle most likely. If the ordinary person feels removed from the process, we've entered the world not of Orwell (your basic fallacy) but of Kafka in "The Trial". I'd rather keep the people I live amongst in the loop, as it were.

Believe me, we're entering an era of increased intrusion into the private domain.....9/11 has ensured that, although I believe it was inevitable, given the technology at the State's (and everyone else's) disposal. We're going to have to live lives that can stand that level if inspection, like it or not.

I can. Can you?

Again, can we move this to Community or something?

Well, I have to say that I don't mind any level of Statist surveillance that the State feels is necessary... just so long as it is the State that does it. If I don't like who the State is... I'll vote for someone else next time.

The American System is no where near as civilized as the UK's political system, so it's important to acknowledge your "baby with the bathwater" statement, especially when Kafka is the baby.

I'm sure that Kafka and Orwell would be the first to point out to you that they would have gotten little writing done worrying about overzealous nutjobs lurking around their property based on the programmed complaint of an unproven internet posting.

I'll have to say that I think many things are out of hand, but in a Nation that is armed to the teeth, I do not condone anyone requesting another individual to approach a the private residence of another person on heresay.

Heresay, does not validate taking the law into a private citizens hands. I would not accept the Heresay of anyone in a legal matter. Simply because someone makes a statement, using an anonymous internet Handle, I don't accept heresay. A posting from Wompa1 at MoviePoopShoot.com doesn't rank in my mind as truth or a fact. I don't accept heresay even from Newpapers. I do accept the word of police officers, lawyers, judges and other such officials because the state has thoroughly background checked and authorized their actions as trustworthy and acceptable to be above the level of heresay.

It is clear, however, that many here believe heresay is a valid reason to attend a private residence and Watch and Beset it. To clarify, you don't need to make a long term event of it... it is more than enough legally if you take one picture without legal authority. You would need something akin to a search warrant to do something like take 23 photos, which is not some passing fancy to be sure, and was acted upon well before any "alledged" police involvement occurred. I still have nothing more than internet posts to verify the validity of this complaint, the involvement of any law official, or the actual guilt of this person.

What if this guy is innocent?

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

As a concluding ideal, I think that everyone here makes good and important points. We should never feel fear or be afraid to conduct open dialogs and express our opinions. Our democracy hinges on such exchanges of which these posts are examples of the very best parts of our freedoms. We can not only feel safe from unwarranted intrusions on our privacy, but also feel sure enough when the circumstance warrants it, to act to aid and assist our fellow citizens and our lawful authorities within reasonable limits.

So long as we are enlightened enough to act reasonably, and not with impassioned thoughtless impulses, then both of the positions represented in this thread are good and valid. And so long as we continue to debate and hold a reasonable perspective and answer the call to action when clearly it is warranted and legally justified, then we can and should help our fellow citizens... that includes both the wronged victim, and the wrongly accused.

Excellent points all... I'm honored to have had reasonable, intelligent, and sensible people to hear from on such an important topic.

:cool:

[SPG]

Bender, You choose the argument of the contrarian, yet you do not follow it elsewhere. You can argue anything, but it doesn't make you right. It is very obvious that your theoretical doesn't apply here.
If we assume everything to be a ruse meant to take advantage of us, our very society would cease to function. Not everyone is out to screw you. Some of them are, and with luck you will be able to differentiate the two. Do you have to check every bill and coin to see that they aren't counterfeit? Do you ever take anyone's word, or do you need absolute proof before you will believe them?
We are a society of free individuals who should not be scared to help ourselves when appropriate. The government and the law are extensions of our common will and not absolute authorities over our every action. Use your personal judgement before you act.
I was the victim of a massive theft ($14,000 details on the other thread) and I was able to recover what was mine because of people who got involved to help where the authorities were unable to. Nothing illegal was done, but the police cannot contact every possible outlet for stolen goods for every crime, so friends of mine and even people I didn't know felt for me and helped. When one of the items that was stolen was spotted, the police were called in, thanked us for our help and took over.
There is a woman who tells me just about every night a story of how she was mugged or lost her wallet, or she needs bus fare back home, or her car is out of gas, you get the point. I don't give her money because I know she is lying to get money. My girlfriend patiently listens to the story and then gives her some change knowing that the stories are lies because she feels sorry for the woman.

Judge for yourself. Live your life. Trust if you think they deserve it, don't trust if you don't think they do. But please, after the fact there is little room for your insistence on this point. Your just coming across as a party pooper, and nobody likes a party pooper.

[solvs]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138

Interesting that you found that meaning of the two possible meanings available in the context of this situation... Do you agree with the other possible meaning as well?


Yes, but I'd never take a picture of a cochroach. Even if he was stealing bread. :D

I got your point. I understand your position (even agree with part of it). But I think you just went about this in the wrong way.

First: You were a little mean. That was uncalled for. You know, some people actually know the kid who got scammed. And those of us who knew the story, and saw the proof (there was proof), knew he wasn't just some guy playing upon our sympathies or anger over being scammed ourselves. It turned out, someone else was scammed by the same guy.

Second: You don't have to take any of our words for it. The proof is out there. Look it up. That was my other big problem, you admitted to not knowing much about the case. You should have read more before posting, or made your opinion less directed towards us being ashamed of ourselves. Then again, if you hadn't admitted that, I would have just assumed you were wrong. ;)

Third: The scammer was guilty. The proof was obtained legally. If he was just some guy (or girl) being stalked, things wouldn't have gone as far as they did (with the picture taking and all). The people who took the pictures and helped to find the guy had more proof than just some guy saying something on a website.

So be happy for him, let it go, and we can all kiss and make up (uh... minus the kissing part), and go home.

[Sun Baked]

For $3000 there are a lot of people that would have had the guy beaten bloody with an aluminum stick, instead of trying to put him in jail.

[Nipsy]

First and foremost, I am a huge privacy advocate, and live in fear of what the government is doing to erode our Citizens' Constitutional & Civil Rights in the name of Homeland Security.

Secondly, I do believe that there is a difference between Watching & Besetting, and shooting a RAM Card full of photos of a property and its surroundings. It seems to have been a one time effort, so stalking is out. Privacy applies to a home's interior, and gardens, but not to its exteriors (terraserver anyone?). Your license plate is public property, etc.

Most importantly, I think it is important to illustrate (via this case), that OPEN information, exchanged PUBLICLY, can yeild results which will ASSIST Law Enforcement in making arrests which otherwise would not have been made.

Notice that the press often aceive similar results by publicizing a problem, photographically and in text? Without Watching and Besetting, without stalking, etc.

He didn't use the information in a clandestine way, secreting it away for purposes of control (1984). He didn't use it for blackmail. He made it OPEN, and that openess of information helped create results.

This is not some guy collating information on when you pee in the morning so he can use it to profile you. This is not some guy scanning every e-mail for the word Allah. This is not some guy doing his stalking, as I think was proven adequately by the (verifiable) names he included in his documentation. This was not a child pornographer (they don't often invlove the police with their computers). This was a taxpayer getting the shaft.

This was a guy who's $3000 problem was less important than lesser, more public crimes & and greater, more threatening crimes. This was a guy who got no justice from the justice system, so he handed them all the clues on a silver freakin platter.

This is a guy who was smart enough to get some results...not by being a vigiliante, but by creating enough clamor, by providing enough evidence, by doing enough research, that Law Enforcement would have been publicly shamed by not completing the arrest.

[Kristava]

I have also been frauded by ebay while bidding on an Apple Powerbook G4. The person's ebay account name is hannahca and goes by the name Rene Duclos.

The following is what I got from ebay.......
Item name: Apple Titanium PowerBook
> Item #: 1773669954
> Buy It Now price: $1,700.00

Becuase ebay voided the auction AFTER I won it, I went ahead with the payment and lost the money. A acomplicatino with Western Union (his method of payment) has made the payment twice.

I implore anyone who can help me find this culprit.

By the way, I bought the powerbook from Apple, and I will never trust ebay again. I ask all who are bidding from ebay to cancel their bids. The seller happened to be from Germany, and I have contacted German law enforecement but have yet to hear from them. Inccident happne about 1 1/2 months ago.


On a seperate incident...............

I also recieved a fraud notice from an email masqurading to be an ebay employee, saying that I have been chosen by ebay on their "lucky draw" and has been entitled to a powerbook for only $1600. I forwarded the email to ebay, and again, it was a fruad.

At the same time, I do not trust the security of Western Union and I regret to do business with them. They are not relieable of checking the person who will collect your money, have no consumer fraud protection, and is not capable of tracing people who collected money from you. The company, in my opinion, waste people's time filling up forms that they could not use or verify.

[maluscanis]

I'm glad i read this forum because about a month ago this same individual (a.k.a. steve matthews jobs) ripped us out of 2000 for a new dual 867 powermac. The thing that irritated me the most about the fraud was that he asked us to airmail the package to him since he needed it immediately for his kid going off to college - this cost us an extra 150 dollars... it just goes to show you that this guy has absolutely no conscience. Anyway, we hope that everyone who was scammed by this guy (there are about 10 of us so far) will step forward so we can put him behind bars for a long time. Oh by the way, it doesn't seem likely that any of us will get our money back.

[zuffen]

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20021215/D7NUBIP01.html

[crassusad44]

This kind of stories makes me proud to be a part of the Mac community!!! It's one of the best stories I've read in a long time (since the Timbuktu iMac-tracing case).

:) :) :)

To benderbot:mad: :
You make such a big case out of the fact that the Mac community should not have trused Eric, since he might be a stalker, or, in other words, a criminal. And people in the community should not take pictures of a persons house, because he might not be a conman afterall... WHERE'S YOUR LOGIC????? Do you mean we can't trust people posting on the internet, but have to assume they have bad intentions when they ask for help?

[Backtothemac]

Well, there is a happy ending to the story. We donated to him a new iBook today, and he should have it in the next few days. See, Mac users do stick together.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by SPG
Bender, You choose the argument of the contrarian, yet you do not follow it elsewhere. You can argue anything, but it doesn't make you right. It is very obvious that your theoretical doesn't apply here.
If we assume everything to be a ruse meant to take advantage of us, our very society would cease to function. Not everyone is out to screw you. Some of them are, and with luck you will be able to differentiate the two. Do you have to check every bill and coin to see that they aren't counterfeit? Do you ever take anyone's word, or do you need absolute proof before you will believe them?
We are a society of free individuals who should not be scared to help ourselves when appropriate. The government and the law are extensions of our common will and not absolute authorities over our every action. Use your personal judgement before you act.
I was the victim of a massive theft ($14,000 details on the other thread) and I was able to recover what was mine because of people who got involved to help where the authorities were unable to. Nothing illegal was done, but the police cannot contact every possible outlet for stolen goods for every crime, so friends of mine and even people I didn't know felt for me and helped. When one of the items that was stolen was spotted, the police were called in, thanked us for our help and took over.
There is a woman who tells me just about every night a story of how she was mugged or lost her wallet, or she needs bus fare back home, or her car is out of gas, you get the point. I don't give her money because I know she is lying to get money. My girlfriend patiently listens to the story and then gives her some change knowing that the stories are lies because she feels sorry for the woman.

Judge for yourself. Live your life. Trust if you think they deserve it, don't trust if you don't think they do. But please, after the fact there is little room for your insistence on this point. Your just coming across as a party pooper, and nobody likes a party pooper.

Good Point.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by crassusad44
This kind of stories makes me proud to be a part of the Mac community!!! It's one of the best stories I've read in a long time (since the Timbuktu iMac-tracing case).

:) :) :)

To benderbot:mad: :
You make such a big case out of the fact that the Mac community should not have trused Eric, since he might be a stalker, or, in other words, a criminal. And people in the community should not take pictures of a persons house, because he might not be a conman afterall... WHERE'S YOUR LOGIC????? Do you mean we can't trust people posting on the internet, but have to assume they have bad intentions when they ask for help?

Excellent Point.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by maluscanis
I'm glad i read this forum because about a month ago this same individual (a.k.a. steve matthews jobs) ripped us out of 2000 for a new dual 867 powermac. The thing that irritated me the most about the fraud was that he asked us to airmail the package to him since he needed it immediately for his kid going off to college - this cost us an extra 150 dollars... it just goes to show you that this guy has absolutely no conscience. Anyway, we hope that everyone who was scammed by this guy (there are about 10 of us so far) will step forward so we can put him behind bars for a long time. Oh by the way, it doesn't seem likely that any of us will get our money back.

Yea... an he ripped me too... ya dat's da ticket... I had a million dollars, and dis guy took it too...

We are SO over the line with Libel.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Nipsy
First and foremost, I am a huge privacy advocate, and live in fear of what the government is doing to erode our Citizens' Constitutional & Civil Rights in the name of Homeland Security.

Secondly, I do believe that there is a difference between Watching & Besetting, and shooting a RAM Card full of photos of a property and its surroundings. It seems to have been a one time effort, so stalking is out. Privacy applies to a home's interior, and gardens, but not to its exteriors (terraserver anyone?). Your license plate is public property, etc.

Most importantly, I think it is important to illustrate (via this case), that OPEN information, exchanged PUBLICLY, can yeild results which will ASSIST Law Enforcement in making arrests which otherwise would not have been made.

Notice that the press often aceive similar results by publicizing a problem, photographically and in text? Without Watching and Besetting, without stalking, etc.

He didn't use the information in a clandestine way, secreting it away for purposes of control (1984). He didn't use it for blackmail. He made it OPEN, and that openess of information helped create results.

This is not some guy collating information on when you pee in the morning so he can use it to profile you. This is not some guy scanning every e-mail for the word Allah. This is not some guy doing his stalking, as I think was proven adequately by the (verifiable) names he included in his documentation. This was not a child pornographer (they don't often invlove the police with their computers). This was a taxpayer getting the shaft.

This was a guy who's $3000 problem was less important than lesser, more public crimes & and greater, more threatening crimes. This was a guy who got no justice from the justice system, so he handed them all the clues on a silver freakin platter.

This is a guy who was smart enough to get some results...not by being a vigiliante, but by creating enough clamor, by providing enough evidence, by doing enough research, that Law Enforcement would have been publicly shamed by not completing the arrest.

That's the best summary I've read yet. But wouldn't you feel more peaceful taking pictures of the ducks and turtles at the park?

Worse yet... what about this scenario... "Hi my names BillyBub ... ma nayber he ah-givs me dis itchee feelun... ya now da feelun... so ahs ahgonna set up ma web camra and flim him all da time from now on... I jus get itchee lookin at him... ahs a nose its ok cause dat intern net says its so... an all da idees I get frum dere Ise act on dem, even dow I do not nows wedder deys legal or not really."

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Kristava
I have also been frauded by ebay while bidding on an Apple Powerbook G4. The person's ebay account name is hannahca and goes by the name Rene Duclos.



Correction ... you have ALLEGEDLY been defrauded. You know that itsy bitsy thing ... innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. ... although I would submit your honor that the post on MacRumors mentioning my clients name is prima facia evidence of criminal libel... etc etc

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by solvs


...Third: The scammer was guilty.

Good point... but there is that itsy bitsy little thing... the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty... you know ... in a court of law.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

I can't deny it... my opinion is being swayed....

:mad:

[Sun Baked]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


Yea... an he ripped me too... ya dat's da ticket... I had a million dollars, and dis guy took it too...

We are SO over the line with Libel.

:cool:
He would have to be making a knowingly false statement (like you did ;) ) to have a good chance of losing a libel case.

If he believes this is thief enough to file a complaint against him and to have the man arrested - and the police happened to pick up a few more forged checks in the guys hands - the chances of a libel case getting past the jurisdiction dispute are remote.

Plus what is the guy going to do, argue that these threads ruined his criminal enterprise?

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Sun Baked

He would have to be making a knowingly false statement (like you did) to have a good chance of losing a libel case.

If he believes this is thief enough to file a complaint against him and to have the man arrested - and the police happened to pick up a few more forged checks in the guys hands - the chances of a libel case getting past the jurisdiction dispute are remote.

Plus what is the guy going to do, argue that these threads ruined his criminal enterprise?

Unless it's not a criminal enterprise... maybe the poor guy is innocent... I have yet to hear a judge say, and ultimately, that is all that counts. If a judge says innocent, then all ^ this ^ can be evidence of damage to the person (reputation).

:cool:
__________
By the way count blah is very good... did you make that?

[Nipsy]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


Correction ... you have ALLEGEDLY been defrauded. You know that itsy bitsy thing ... innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. ... although I would submit your honor that the post on MacRumors mentioning my clients name is prima facia evidence of criminal libel... etc etc

But wouldn't you feel more peaceful taking pictures of the ducks and turtles at the park?
:cool:

Nope, you've been defrauded from the getgo. Whether or not a fraud conviction occurs is the result of the Justice system...if I take your million bucks, but am not convicted, you've still been defrauded. At that point, I am allegedly the perpetrator of the fraud.

If the justice systems pays you no mind, and you solve the problem for them, and the make they make the arrest and prosecution and conviction, then well bingo!

I'd certainly feel peaceful shooting photos of ducks in a pond, until someone stole my camera. In the world you are talking about, the robber could run away, and non of the other people in the park would try to stop him...

Are you first year law?

[cr2sh]

Will this thread just please die.... it is definately guilty of sucking. :D (i know)

<off topic>
Finals are done, but today beig my first weekday off, all I can say is 'damn, i am bored.'

[Sun Baked]

If you get a fake check and the guy keeps changing his name, chances are the guy isn't running a legit business.

Chances are - if it was a criminal enterprise, that the guy may make a deal to nail someone higher up the food chain.

Even if the guy is found innocent, gets off on a technicality, or makes deal - there is always the civil case and getting everybody who was scammed to file a complaint with the IRS.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Nipsy


Nope, you've been defrauded from the getgo. Whether or not a fraud conviction occurs is the result of the Justice system...if I take your million bucks, but am not convicted, you've still been defrauded. At that point, I am allegedly the perpetrator of the fraud.

If the justice systems pays you no mind, and you solve the problem for them, and the make they make the arrest and prosecution and conviction, then well bingo!

I'd certainly feel peaceful shooting photos of ducks in a pond, until someone stole my camera. In the world you are talking about, the robber could run away, and non of the other people in the park would try to stop him...


You hammered the nail on the head perfectly... here's the relevant section: "... and they make the arrest and prosecution and conviction..." Key words missing from the assumptions made by everyone... "conviction. And that doesn't mean in the court of public opinion... it means in a court of law.

All I see so far is an alleged arrest. I don't even have proof that a real arrest has occured, just the heresay words of some web postings.

Let me make another point... for all the overzealous hoopla that everyone is engaging in, there are very bad organized criminals out there. If in fact this guy is part of some weird computer theft ring... am I the only one aware that they could probably have other computer resources and abilities? And being criminals... what's to stop them from doing far worse than stealing... for example... puting a hole the size of a silver dollar between the eyes of some overzealous webnut taking pictures of their theft ring and barrying the body in the dessert or feeding it to the pigs.

Wow... let the law do their job.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by cr2sh
Will this thread just please die.... it is definately guilty of sucking. :D (i know)

<off topic>
Finals are done, but today beig my first weekday off, all I can say is 'damn, i am bored.'

Point taken... my apologies.

:cool:

[mcrain]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
You hammered the nail on the head perfectly... here's the relevant section: "... and they make the arrest and prosecution and conviction..." Key words missing from the assumptions made by everyone... "conviction. And that doesn't mean in the court of public opinion... it means in a court of law.

All I see so far is an alleged arrest. I don't even have proof that a real arrest has occured, just the heresay words of some web postings.

Let me make another point... for all the overzealous hoopla that everyone is engaging in, there are very bad organized criminals out there. If in fact this guy is part of some weird computer theft ring... am I the only one aware that they could probably have other computer resources and abilities? And being criminals... what's to stop them from doing far worse than stealing... for example... puting a hole the size of a silver dollar between the eyes of some overzealous webnut taking pictures of their theft ring and barrying the body in the dessert or feeding it to the pigs.

Wow... let the law do their job.

:cool:

After all your blabbering about innocent until proven guilty and allegedly that, and allegedly this, and how this whole story shouldn't be glorified, etc... you end it all by saying let the law do their job.

The whole point behind this story, and why people helped, was that the law wasn't doing its job. There are many, many times when I have turned clients away because it just wasn't financially worth doing, or worth the effort.

Here, the cops didn't listen. The FBI didn't listen. The SS didn't listen. Worse, they said they weren't going to do anything. So, an individual, within the confines of the law, investigated an individual and set up a trap. He then obtained the assistance of law enforcement, and they did their job.

Had he not done what he did, the law wouldn't have done its job.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Sun Baked
If you get a fake check and the guy keeps changing his name, chances are the guy isn't running a legit business.

Chances are - if it was a criminal enterprise, that the guy may make a deal to nail someone higher up the food chain.

Even if the guy is found innocent, gets off on a technicality, or makes deal - there is always the civil case and getting everybody who was scammed to file a complaint with the IRS.

Excellent point... are "Chances" admissible in courts of law? ;)

Maybe the guy can't settle on a name he likes, and maybe his bank is horribly innept... I just don't know, but I bet a judge'll be able to. Until then, I don't want to bad mouth anyone... and truth be known, I don't even want to bad mouth someone who actually does what this guy is accused of doing.

I've never even been pulled over for a speeding ticket, so I'm the last authority to say anything about this, but we treat people who have scrapes with the law way too poorly. Heck, 90 percent of the people we have in jails (primarily for drugs) wouldn't even be arrested in Europe or Canada I believe (I'm not entirely sure about Canada's drug laws).

How about this defence if the guy is actually doing something questionable... "your honor... the Switch ads made me do it... I watched Ellen Fliess and Will Ferrell and fell in love with macs... I just had to have one... but I'm too poor... What's that you say your honor... ads don't affect anyone... but your honor they do... what's that your honor... yes I do honestly believe that... could you repeat that please your honor... I couldn't make out what you were saying with that Camel hanging out of your mouth..."

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

See this thread. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=15793

I am sure you will love that Bender.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by mcrain


The whole point behind this story, and why people helped, was that the law wasn't doing its job. There are many, many times when I have turned clients away because it just wasn't financially worth doing, or worth the effort.

Here, the cops didn't listen. The FBI didn't listen. The SS didn't listen. Worse, they said they weren't going to do anything. So, an individual, within the confines of the law, investigated an individual and set up a trap. He then obtained the assistance of law enforcement, and they did their job.

Had he not done what he did, the law wouldn't have done its job.

Wasn't financially worth doing?

You say "an individual, within the confines of the law" but you make a rather large assumption in that don't you think? What's your evidence that this was within the confines of the law sir, other than heresay?

As for me and my house... we believe in Law Enforment Officials and I emphatically debunk the premise that legal officials turn down any criminal complaint based on the monetary stakes involved, that's a very grim view of how the law works.

:cool:

[mcrain]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
Excellent point... are "Chances" admissible in courts of law? ;)


The facts that lead to the "chance" conclusion are admissable to the extent they are relevant and not overly inflammatory. Once the facts are established, the attorney representing the state or private party can ask the jury or judge to draw conclusions based on those facts. The conclusions the attorney can ask the jury/judge to make are the "chances."

So, although you can't admit into evidence that there is a chance that the guy is running a criminal enterprise, you can enter evidence regarding his finances, name changes, other dealings, living beyond his means, etc... and then argue to the jury/judge that there is a strong chance that he's running a criminal enterprise despite the defendant's refusal to admit it.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138

As for me and my house... we believe in Law Enforment Officials and I emphatically debunk the premise that legal officials turn down any criminal complaint based on the monetary stakes involved, that's a very grim view of how the law works.

:cool:

Um, you live in a very clouded view of the US justice system, if you believe otherwise.

Ask mcrain, he can, as an attorney explain that to you.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


Wasn't financially worth doing?

You say "an individual, within the confines of the law" but you make a rather large assumption in that don't you think? What's your evidence that this was within the confines of the law sir, other than heresay?

As for me and my house... we believe in Law Enforment Officials and I emphatically debunk the premise that legal officials turn down any criminal complaint based on the monetary stakes involved, that's a very grim view of how the law works.

:cool:

Clearly I am relying to some extent on hearsay, however, the hearsay I am relying upon is newsources which are in turn taking advantage of a liability exception for reporting the activities of law enforcement.

So, if we can assume that the papers aren't making this stuff up, they, in order to avoid legal sanctions, have to accurately report the activities of the law enforcement officials. As such, we can put a pretty good amount of factual weight on the story regarding the arrest of the suspect. BUT, we can also see that the individual who set the trap hasn't been arrested.

Furthermore, from what he has posted on his website, and what has been reported, I haven't seen anything that he has done that would warrant arrest. Maybe he did something illegal, but I don't see any evidence along those lines.

Sorry, you can debunk whatever you want to in your house, but I've practiced law now for a while, come from a family with several lawyers including former state's attorneys, and one of my best friends is a current state's attorney. I also know several public defenders and criminal defense lawyers. From that base of knowledge, I can say very confidently that not only do civil attorneys turn clients away based on various reasons including money, but so do state's attorneys. It's called prosecutorial discretion.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
See this thread. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?threadid=15793

I am sure you will love that Bender.

yeah... I've got these tickets for this ship, it's supposed to be unsinkable... would you like them?

Can't you and your company wait till the judge rules? What's gonna happen when General Cybernetics looks like a chump for buying a computer for a real fraud artist? If the accused is found innoncent... then you'll look the chump, and so will GC.

:cool:

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by mcrain


Clearly I am relying to some extent on hearsay, however, the hearsay I am relying upon is newsources which are in turn taking advantage of a liability exception for reporting the activities of law enforcement.

So, if we can assume that the papers aren't making this stuff up, they, in order to avoid legal sanctions, have to accurately report the activities of the law enforcement officials. As such, we can put a pretty good amount of factual weight on the story regarding the arrest of the suspect. BUT, we can also see that the individual who set the trap hasn't been arrested.

Furthermore, from what he has posted on his website, and what has been reported, I haven't seen anything that he has done that would warrant arrest. Maybe he did something illegal, but I don't see any evidence along those lines.

Sorry, you can debunk whatever you want to in your house, but I've practiced law now for a while, come from a family with several lawyers including former state's attorneys, and one of my best friends is a current state's attorney. I also know several public defenders and criminal defense lawyers. From that base of knowledge, I can say very confidently that not only do civil attorneys turn clients away based on various reasons including money, but so do state's attorneys. It's called prosecutorial discretion.

Ahhh ... when it mcrains it mcpours... good points ... score one for mcrain *ting*

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


yeah... I've got these tickets for this ship, it's supposed to be unsinkable... would you like them?

Can't you and your company wait till the judge rules? What's gonna happen when General Cybernetics looks like a chump for buying a computer for a real fraud artist? If the accused is found innoncent... then you'll look the chump, and so will GC.

:cool:

Because I have personally talked to the officer that arrested the guy. The young man did not do anything wrong, and is short what he needs. We have it, and are providing it to him because it is the right thing to do. He is legit Bender. Call the Markham police department and speak to office Knapp if you must. Or call Christine at the Chicago Tribune. Seriously man, some things are obvious. If you walk up to some one and see them kill someone, do you need to wait for a trial to judge that persons guilt!

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Um, you live in a very clouded view of the US justice system, if you believe otherwise.

Ask mcrain, he can, as an attorney explain that to you.

Are you kidding me... mcrain isn't a lawyer... I got a burger from him at rotten ronnies the other day.

:cool:

[mcrain]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Because I have personally talked to the officer that arrested the guy. The young man did not do anything wrong, and is short what he needs. We have it, and are providing it to him because it is the right thing to do. He is legit Bender. Call the Markham police department and speak to office Knapp if you must. Or call Christine at the Chicago Tribune. Seriously man, some things are obvious. If you walk up to some one and see them kill someone, do you need to wait for a trial to judge that persons guilt!

Actually, if you see someone commit a crime, they may still be found innocent, or the prosecutor may choose not to prosecute. That doesn't change the fact that there was a victim (unless it is a victimless crime) and that the victim suffered some injury to person or property.

Should a doctor wait to help someone in the emergency room because he doesn't know if the person who injured them will be found guilty? What if the doctor realizes that the insurance will only pay if the perp. is found guilty? Should the dr. wait?

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


Because I have personally talked to the officer that arrested the guy. The young man did not do anything wrong, and is short what he needs. We have it, and are providing it to him because it is the right thing to do. He is legit Bender. Call the Markham police department and speak to office Knapp if you must. Or call Christine at the Chicago Tribune. Seriously man, some things are obvious. If you walk up to some one and see them kill someone, do you need to wait for a trial to judge that persons guilt!

Look at OJ. You'd think a glove was evidence enough... but wait a minute... there is that little thing called a court of law... mcrain can tell you as an attorney that judge wopner doesn't always rule in the people's favor in peoples court.

Generally I think people should accept proof in the proper place for proof to be presented. Since I trust your word BTTM ... I've got to admit I'm more than a little swayed. mcrain and Nipsy made some devastating points and solvs also brings an interesting look to the table.

It's hard not to be swayed by public opinion. I would like to ultimately see justice done, whether that means convicting a thief, or exposing a person who is wrongly on a vendetta against an innocent man. The impact on the innocent party's life here must be impressive. I'd say if the innocent party is the accused... we've all got some crow to eat, most of all me for being swayed by public opinion.

:cool:

[mcrain]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
Are you kidding me... mcrain isn't a lawyer... I got a burger from him at rotten ronnies the other day.

:cool:

Oh, you're on a roll! Man, I can't compete with this sort of intellectual discussion. You're just too good for me, not to mention the rest of these people.

You're just smarter than me, I give up. :rolleyes:

[mcrain]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
Look at OJ. You'd think a glove was evidence enough... but wait a minute... there is that little thing called a court of law... mcrain can tell you as an attorney that judge wopner doesn't always rule in the people's favor in peoples court.

:cool:
True, OJ was found innocent in criminal court, then later guilty in civil court. Neither of which changes the fact that Nicole is DEAD! Here, the kid has lost his computer (which he can prove he did have, did mail, and doesn't have anymore). Sure, he could be committing a fraud on the rest of the world, but it's pretty elaborate and he's gotten the assistance of the media and the police. Unlikely.

[Backtothemac]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


Look at OJ. You'd think a glove was evidence enough... but wait a minute... there is that little thing called a court of law... mcrain can tell you as an attorney that judge wopner doesn't always rule in the people's favor in peoples court.

:cool:

OJ, was guilty as the day is long. everyone with half a brain got that part. Too bad that the jury did not. I don't care if the person if found guilty. Fact is it happened, as he told it on his website. So, we did what we felt was the best thing to do for someone, especially during this time of year.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac


OJ, was guilty as the day is long.

OJ was actually innocent. That's the State's Legal and Official Opinion. The Civil case was to determine if he was guilty not of killing her, but of being responsible for her death (which can mean by failing to take proper care of a tot for example).

I say OJ is criminally innocent because that is the fact. The State has ruled it to be so. To say otherwise is to deny the legal fact that he is criminally innocent of Killing anyone. Not Guilty. That is the legal truth.

I may believe he did it, but the truth is the State tells me he did not. The Civil case does not say he did it either, only that he was civilly responsible for her death, the Civil court would know better than to say he actually killed her, because the ruling was that he did not.

:cool:

[mcrain]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138
OJ was actually innocent. That's the State's Legal and Official Opinion. The Civil case was to determine if he was guilty not of killing her, but of being responsible for her death (which can mean by failing to take proper care of a tot for example).

I say OJ is criminally innocent because that is the fact. The State has ruled it to be so. To say otherwise is to deny the legal fact that he is criminally innocent of Killing anyone. Not Guilty. That is the legal truth.

I may believe he did it, but the truth is the State tells me he did not. The Civil case does not say he did it either, only that he was civilly responsible for her death, the Civil court would know better than to say he actually killed her, because the ruling was that he did not.

:cool:

Wrong. The civil case did say that he killed her. "Armchair Attorneys... :rolleyes: "

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by mcrain


Wrong. The civil case did say that he killed her. "Armchair Attorneys... :rolleyes: "

It's not possible for a civil case to make that determination... murder is a criminal code offence and can only be prosecuted under criminal statutes in a criminal court. Correct me if I'm wrong there?

Basic point being with OJ and Eric the Read... is that before we start breaking out the tar and feathers or calling our fellow townsfolk to bring their pitchforks to town, let's make sure Dr Jeckyl is in fact Mr. Hyde.

:cool:

[Backtothemac]

I understand your opinion, but just because the State says anything does it mean that it is true. Sure, The state says OJ is innocent. but I have the ability as a human being to develop a resonable opinion of guilt. And, he was guilty as crap, but the jury was convinced otherwise, sadly.

Oh, and you are wrong. He was found guilty of her death in a civil court. Difference is instead of paying with his life, he paid with his wallet.

[BenderBot1138]

Originally posted by Backtothemac
I understand your opinion, but just because the State says anything does it mean that it is true. Sure, The state says OJ is innocent. but I have the ability as a human being to develop a resonable opinion of guilt. And, he was guilty as crap, but the jury was convinced otherwise, sadly.

Oh, and you are wrong. He was found guilty of her death in a civil court. Difference is instead of paying with his life, he paid with his wallet.

I agree... I think everyone does have an opinion on it... and it can tend to run contrary to the State's official legal ruling.

This has been a very interesting and serious thread... here's a little Intermission/relief (http://soundamerica.com/sounds/sound_fx/F-R/laugh1.wav). And don't forget to smile... there's a world of good intentions contained within these wonderful pages.

:cool:

[iJon]

Hey guys, his story made cnn news. go the web and check it out.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/12/15/computer.crimestoppers.ap/

[medea]

Just to let you know, in the Nationwide section of various news articles in our Sunday paper here this was a featured article, I currently am lacking a scanner so I will retype the article:
Illinois- Relentless search nabs thief:
MARKHAM - A student's dogged pursuit of a bogus-check writer who cheated him out of a computer was credited with helping police make a forgery arrest.
Eric Smtih, a University of New Orleans student, initially had few clues to find the person who bought his Apple laptop on Ebay with a bogus check. He had an e-mail address, cell phone number and the Chicago address - actually a mail drop - where he shipped the laptop.
But by posting the scant details on message boards and chat rooms, Smith got responses from more than a hundred Macintosh users. They found the registration of the phone number and provided evidence that a Los Angeles resident had been similary cheated out of two computers.
Melvin Christmas, 38, was arrested Thursday and charged with two counts of forgery. His teleohone number is unlisted and he could not be reached for coment.

So to those doubters and nay-sayers, this man did a good deed and should not be called "the worst type" of person, I said it before and I'll repeat it again, way to go Eric and the whole mac community that aided him (which included me.)

[BenderBot1138]

Reeeeallly... Is there any word on who first suggested he should try to sell another computer to the guy... I think someone said it was in the second reply of a poster (dukestreet) here at MacRumors.

Truth or MacRumor... you be the judge.

PS: Why didn't CNN mention MacRumor? ;)

:cool:

[Geetar]

Originally posted by BenderBot1138


OJ was actually innocent. That's the State's Legal and Official Opinion. The Civil case was to determine if he was guilty not of killing her, but of being responsible for her death





Pure sophistry. I believe you have access to a dictionary. Use it.

[MacCoaster]

Originally posted by mcrain

True, OJ was found innocent in criminal court, then later guilty in civil court. Neither of which changes the fact that Nicole is DEAD! Here, the kid has lost his computer (which he can prove he did have, did mail, and doesn't have anymore). Sure, he could be committing a fraud on the rest of the world, but it's pretty elaborate and he's gotten the assistance of the media and the police. Unlikely.
Wait a minute. I thought double jeopardy prevented one from being tried twice for the same crime. Or does that apply to same type of justice (i.e. criminal justice, civil justice, etc.)?

[solvs]

You are right about one thing. He hasn't been proven guilty in a court of law. But, he won't be, because the bad guy confessed. That's where I got the guilty part from. Maybe he was beaten into a confession, and was the victim of a conspiricy - like OJ (yeah right). But the sentencing will begin, and he is, legaly, considered guilty.

I still see your point, as I remember saying how I wished Tonya Harding was innocent just to shut the media up. We all remember Richard Jewel, don't we? And that one "Simpsons" cartoon where Homer was accused of sexual harrassment. Public opinion isn't always right.

But as I saw on a rerun of "Third Rock From the Sun" (you can tell I've been watching to much TV), "it isn't reasonable doubt if you're just making stuff up".

Thank you, and good night. It's been fun.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by MacCoaster
Wait a minute. I thought double jeopardy prevented one from being tried twice for the same crime. Or does that apply to same type of justice (i.e. criminal justice, civil justice, etc.)?

The short answer is that in a criminal context, you can't be tried, found innocent, and then tried for the same crime again.

The movie of that name, by the way, was totally wrong.

There is a way where you can be tried in a criminal context, and then retried, but that involves a mistrial or a conviction followed by post-conviction relief.

In a civil context, if you run into a car with 4 people in it, you can be sued 4 times (or more) for the same incident. In addition, you can be sued in civil court by one person more than one time for the same incident (although, any attorney who allows his client to get into that situation is an idiot).

[zuffen]

No one said the legislative, criminal and civil law was governed by common sense.

The law and the process is a doubled edged sword. Anything that man has a process in will have flaws.

Emotional content can sway the enforcement of the law, interpretation of the law and final outcome of the law.

Look how Senator Lott has ruined his career, but segration was a fact in the 50's and did anyone ever consider that maybe society wasn't fully ready for desegregation at that time. History shows the struggles and lives lost, yes the gains were worth the sacrifice, but imagine if the goverment had waited another half decade or full decade, what would the outcome have been?

But I'm not Senator Lott and we will never know what he ment by his comments, as the press lynching and the public lynching has emotionally overshadowed the intent of his statement

Emotions govern our lives.

Most of this discussion is based on emotions and not fact. How the facts were presented and interpreted is what is important.

The facts as presented on this case,

a kid sold a computer on ebay, delivered as agreed and payment was not rendered. After private investigation it appears this is not an isolated incident with the buyer. the seller felt that crimes were commited and through the correct process tried to involve law enforcement (you can see where that got him). Eventually he found support and the authorities looked into his claim and found reason to move forward on a law enforcement action. The buyer was arrested. Does anyone think that the police would arrest someone on the word of one person?

The "kid" could have went straight to a civil process and involved civil law. His civil case(should he pursue) now has much more weight as it appears that actual crimes have been committed.

But more than likely he won't ever regain what he has lost, the only compensation is satisfaction of knowing that he has stopped a criminal from victimizing other Ebay sellers.

I'm stepping off the soapbox.

[keltorsori]

Jeez, I'm happy I've been busy with other things the last week or else I might have spent all this time replying in this forum. Bender, I get your point, but maybe you should expand your consider quoting other philosopher/thinkers as well as those you have already. Kafka and Orwell had great points, but the rest of the twentieth century did as well. One point that Orwell was making in 1984 which I think you are glossing over is that you can't give absolute power to the state. The Party. I did not take the law into my own hands, I aided law enforcement agencies too over worked/underfunded to pursue my case. I asked for and received help from the community. 1984 is a community of people without trust. The community here trusted me, offered me their assistance. Winston Smith lived in the kind of world you are advocating, where there is no trust, only the official word of The Party. I prefer to live in this world, where I can count on my community to come to my aid and assistance.

I agree with your general sentiment, that the government should be the ultimate arbiter in the pursuit of justice. But the sad fact is that, (whether you wish to believe it or not), law enforcement really does choose not to pursue cases like mine. The FBI has published guidelines for every field office regarding minimums for cases that they will and will not accept. Ditto for the Secret Service. I'm one of over a dozen (that I know of) victims over the last 1.5 years of Mr. Christmas, and the Chicago PD has complaints filed in all of them. Not a single of the cases has been pursued. Period.

The Chicago PD finally called me today. The detective suggested I setup a controlled delivery like the guy he read about in the Tribune over the weekend did (I kid you not). I almost fell out of my chair. He didn't even know that the person he was talking to was the person he had read about! My name was printed in the paper and at the top of my filed complaint. When I did tell him that we were one in the same, he asked me if my computer had been recovered and then wished me good luck. I tried to tell him that there were 12 other cases that I actually had Chicago case numbers for that he could also close or at least inform the detectives in charge that the perp had been caught. He declined. I have faith in the system, but I think that faith is placed in some future revision of the system, not this one.

While skepticism is always appreciated (somebody's got to look out for the rest of us sheep), I think you should avoid an argument of semantics and stick to the reality of situations. Sorry if my statement came off as offensive, I honestly mean no offense. As I said, I generally agree with what you had to say. I only believe that in general, there comes a point where you should concede that the other side might be right... :)

Eric Smith

[edited out a possibly malicious comment (not meant as such, but could be read as such)]

P.S. Thank you everyone (Bender included) for your support and help. This would not have been possible without at least the supportive comments I received from this trusting community. I, like the other victims, might have simply chalked this up to experience and not pursued it any further. You all deserve a hearty pat on the back and cold beverage of your choice.
Bender, if you're ever in New Orleans, look me up, I'm in the book, I'd love to buy you a beer or two (or coffee or whatever) and talk philosophy.

[Doctor Q]

From the newspaper column Only in L.A. by Steve Harvey in the Los Angeles Times, Tuesday December 17, 2002, page B4, headline The Real Bah-Humbug Spirit of Christmas -- It's Better to Take Than to Give:

Christmas Story II: A college student in Illinois was allegedly cheated out of a computer by a bogus-check writer in an eBay transaction.

The victim made some inquiries on the Internet and found that a Los Angeles resident also claimed to have been swindled. So the student set up his own sting operation, offering another computer through his girlfriend's eBay account.

The suspect answered the ad and was directed to an address where police were waiting. The suspect's name: Melvin Christmas.

[maureen obrien]

This story appeared in today's New York Times -- complete with a picture --

I am so glad I am a mac user.

[Doctor Q]

Originally posted by maureen obrien
This story appeared in today's New York Times -- complete with a picture --
Anyone with a (free) N.Y. Times account can read it here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/19/technology/circuits/19stin.html.

The picture accompanying the article is a photo of Jason Eric Smith:

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2002/12/17/technology/19STING.1.jpg