Poll:Is Apple being too harsh on the 'Leak'?

[MacRumors]

Vote: Poll:Is Apple being too harsh on the 'Leak'? (http://www.macpolls.com/?poll_id=91&ref=forums.macrumors.com)

[dricci]

I like reading rumors as much as the next guy, but Apple does have a responsibility as a corporation to keep their secrets, well, secret, especially when they are always at risk of being ripped off by PC makers.

[Hemingray]

I agree. A breach is a breach. I love seeing stuff beforehand as much as any other Mac addict, but what they did *is* technically illegal and if they are careless/unfortunate enough to be caught, then they deserve the consequences.

[usersince86]

Like everyone else, I wanted to see the new designs.

In a way, we contribute to things being leaked... supply and demand sort of thing.

Still, illegal is illegal. I hope we don't cross that line, but the "gray area" is probably defined by Apple a little more clearly -- i.e. it's more black and white.

[AmbitiousLemon]

wow you guys are harsh.

the guy broke is NDA so that means he deserves to have to book thrown at him?

i have to disagree. Sure apple has a right to protect its trade secrets, but putting a man in jail for a contract violation is ridiculous. criminal charges are way over-board. The thought that someone is sitting in jail because he uploaded a poorly drawn schematic to a online discussion board a few days before it was formally announced is just wrong.

we can all sit here and say that the guy should have covered his ass better, but regardless this poor fellow is being crucified as an example to future leaks. this is not justice, it is simply a threat.

print newspapers, and magazines seem to be exempt from this sort of thing. they are allowed to protect their sources. and even when a violation is on the part of the newspaper or magazine, apple has ignored it. when the imac was leaked, did apple put the magazine publisher in jail?

apple is attacking a community that it knows is too weak to defend itself. and is making an example of this fellow simply because they feel they need to intimidate the mac rumor community. ban us from conventions. put us in jail. what is next?

[BenderBot1138]

A judge or jury will decide that...

:cool:

[uhlawboi80]

well i would agree that he deserves to get in trouble, he did violate his contract. BUT past that i agree with ambitious lemon. I am not clear what, other than trade secret violations, apple is accusing him of.

Just a quick glance at my intelectual property notes confirms my initial reaction that there is no recourse for trade secret violations that should get you tossed in jail. Really apple should only be able to recieve any losses they would have incurred as a result of the trade secret violation...which we can all agree is null. Jail is just ridiculous. though god only knows what those crazy people in california have in the way of their own IP laws!

[LethalWolfe]

The guy knew what could happen if he violated his NDA.

Lemon, yer example of the media/press is flawed. Many times journalists have been forced to give a source (or put in jail for contempt of court or obstructing justice). The law recognizes the need for journalistic sources to feel "safe" when talking to the media, but there is nothing in the law that legal protects a journalist and his/her source. Also, a media publication/outlet, or a private citizen for that matter, can't be sued/taken to court for the information it relaeses unless the info is false. There is this thing called Freedom of Speech. The contractor who Apple is going after signed a contract saying he wouldn't spill the beans (he waived his freedom to disclose specific info to the public and/or non-related parties) and he spilled the beans anyway.

Is this guy being made an example of? Possibly, but who's fault is it?


Lethal

[uhlawboi80]

Well lethal wolfe, the point isnt that hes being made an example of. Apple wants to scare its other contractors into copliance, fine. Gettin him tossed in jail? i dont think thats really right or allowed under most laws.

Oh, and actually alot of the time now the law will protect journalist's sources as well as protecting the priest/confesioner, psychoanalyst/patient, and even student/teacher relationships all as confedential. just a side note

and on that note, im off to take another law final!

[jkojima]

The man willfully signed a contract, and as a condition of that contract, was obliged to keep confidential any and all proprietary information he was privy to. By uploading those schematics, he broke that contract, and thus Apple is within full right to prosecute him to the furthest extent that the law will allow. Contract law can be enforced by the criminal courts, and that is why the man is in jail right now. Regardless of Apple's stance, his was a criminal offense, and it is the state, not the company, that is holding him.

Losses each year from leaked secrets run into the billions of dollars in North America. Because Apple, more so than any other PC manufacturer, relies heavily on proprietary technologies and patents to derive its competitive advantage, even a so-called minor infraction can have serious consqeuences for the company.

I have been frequenting Mac Rumors and other similar sites for a couple of months now. I find it ironic that, in many industries, corporate competitive intelligence is a multi-million dollar endevour, wheras in the PC arena it's the consumers themselves who actively persue the cause. What I sometimes object to, however, is the seemingly common belief that users have a right to proprietary information, as though Apple owes it to them. Speculation from external sources is one thing - that's why sites like this one exist, to provide a forum to entertain such thought. But when this man used the site to leak real, confidential information to further his own goals, he crossed the line. I personally believe his actions have sullied the reputation of this and other rumors sites and I don't think we should be defending him. If we condone this type of behaviour, in the long run everybody loses. Apple loses revenue and market share, sites like this will inevitably come under greater scrutiny from the company and maybe even get shut down... it's an ugly picture. So, I say speculation = good, healthy, ethical. Stealing secrets = bad, unethical, illegal.

[lazyrighteye]

Blah, blah, blah...
I say make him use a PC for 5 to life.

Seriously, with all the shyt going on out there (Priests molesting young boys, polliticians insighting war for their personal gains, the continued rash of "reality" shows, etc.), this all seems a tad silly, don't you think?

Some crappy, harmless pics came out a couple days before the "big" announcement. Did the leak of those pics bear ANY effect on Apple's sales/potential sales, or any aspect of Apple's business in general? I don't think so. If anything, it helped contribute to the buzz, the hype... free advertising. And Apple knows that, and likes it.

Apple legal is just being a bunch of a-hole bullies.
A small fine, some community service in a Gateway store parking lot, passing out Apple Store flyers, and let's call it good.

[jkojima]

Not to saturate this forum with my thoughts, but on the subject of journalists protecting sources, etc.: sometimes a leak is not always a leak.

What I mean is, the iMac (used in an earlier post as an example) was purposefully leaked. Savvy marketers can use the press to get free publicity. Before Apple spent a dime on advertising it already had people talking about the brand. Clever!

[mcrain]

Originally posted by uhlawboi80
well i would agree that he deserves to get in trouble, he did violate his contract. BUT past that i agree with ambitious lemon. I am not clear what, other than trade secret violations, apple is accusing him of.

Just a quick glance at my intelectual property notes confirms my initial reaction that there is no recourse for trade secret violations that should get you tossed in jail. Really apple should only be able to recieve any losses they would have incurred as a result of the trade secret violation...which we can all agree is null. Jail is just ridiculous. though god only knows what those crazy people in california have in the way of their own IP laws!

Uh oh, a fellow member (or soon to be) of the law profession! Hot damn!

(edit) I should add something on topic. While there may not be recourse for trade secret violations in a criminal context, there are criminal laws that can be applied to situations where a trade secret is misappropriated. If I were a prosecuting attorney, I would have no problems saying with a straight face that a crime occurred. Whether that merits prosecution or not is a matter of discretion, and thus opinion.

[LethalWolfe]

Originally posted by uhlawboi80
Well lethal wolfe, the point isnt that hes being made an example of. Apple wants to scare its other contractors into copliance, fine. Gettin him tossed in jail? i dont think thats really right or allowed under most laws.

Oh, and actually alot of the time now the law will protect journalist's sources as well as protecting the priest/confesioner, psychoanalyst/patient, and even student/teacher relationships all as confedential. just a side note

and on that note, im off to take another law final!

What's "right" and what's legal aren't always the same thing.

And, like I said, the law walks very carefully when it comes to journalists and their sources, but it is a defacto standard not a legal one. What is said between, for example, a Dr. and the patient is protected. What is said between a journalist and their source is not. I've never heard of a Doc, or Priest, husband, or wife being jailed for contempt because they didn't break confidence, but there are plent of journalists that have been jailed for contempt because they didn't name a source or hand over information gathered (notes from an interview for example).


Lethal

[gbojim]

I don't think Apple is actually trying to scare their other contractors into not violating their NDA's. I have to sign an NDA with just about every customer I have and I simply do not disclose confidential information - same as the vast majority of contractors - Apple or otherwise.

I have a question though if anyone here has the legal expertise. Apple filed a civil complaint which I thought only allowed them to collect money due to damages, cost of the lawsuit, etc. Is that right?

And, is the possibility of jail time only due to charges filed by the DA for theft?

[strider42]

Originally posted by lazyrighteye
Some crappy, harmless pics came out a couple days before the "big" announcement. Did the leak of those pics bear ANY effect on Apple's sales/potential sales, or any aspect of Apple's business in general? I don't think so. If anything, it helped contribute to the buzz, the hype... free advertising. And Apple knows that, and likes it.


Its not up to us to decide when trade secrets are detrimental to apple or not. Its up to apple. Thats why contracts exist, so people can't justify and rationalize their way out of a situation they created. Does this guy deserve a harsh sentence? no he doesn't. But he deserves some definite punishment (and I doubt his punishment will end up being that severe). Apple has the right and should excercise that right to enforce NDA's. If they lose control of that, a lot of stuff that is important may get leaked. The fact is that this guy stole documents from apple. It doesn't matter whether it was close to the date of release or not. It doesn't matter that its not relaly hurting apple (though I can see arguments where it certainly does hurt apple). He stole from them, he stole something apple didn't want released and he released it anyway despite signing a contract saying he wouldn't. He definiltey deserves what he's getting now. I'm sure he'll come out of it without too harsh a punishment anyway.

[big]

capital punishment should only be used for first time offenders....

no seriously, apple is being too harsh, though I dont se this guy going to jail for any length of time, maybe just community service.... but lets not say he "did" the crime yet, innocent first right?

I think he's innocent even now, until I am proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that he IS infact guilty.

any ways, its not like stealing a laptop & forging bank notes etc etc....

[iJon]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
wow you guys are harsh.

the guy broke is NDA so that means he deserves to have to book thrown at him?

i have to disagree. Sure apple has a right to protect its trade secrets, but putting a man in jail for a contract violation is ridiculous. criminal charges are way over-board. The thought that someone is sitting in jail because he uploaded a poorly drawn schematic to a online discussion board a few days before it was formally announced is just wrong.

we can all sit here and say that the guy should have covered his ass better, but regardless this poor fellow is being crucified as an example to future leaks. this is not justice, it is simply a threat.

print newspapers, and magazines seem to be exempt from this sort of thing. they are allowed to protect their sources. and even when a violation is on the part of the newspaper or magazine, apple has ignored it. when the imac was leaked, did apple put the magazine publisher in jail?

apple is attacking a community that it knows is too weak to defend itself. and is making an example of this fellow simply because they feel they need to intimidate the mac rumor community. ban us from conventions. put us in jail. what is next?
You guys should know this by now. Steve does like to f*** around and does not a have a sense of humor about this. This guy knew exactly what he was doing when he posted it on the internet. Although just firing him may have been more appropiate then putting him in jail. I feel for this guy but he knew what he was getting into when he started to work for apple. Keeping secrets secret is what has made apple into the company they are today. oh well, he shouldnt have screwed around.

iJon

[big]

He's not guilty yet, unless tried, or he admitted it....

maybe for punishment, if it were true, then apple should make him show his "private" asets, to umm, the world...... he he he

that would be an "eye for an eye"

[Datazoid]

as well as protecting the priest/confesioner, psychoanalyst/patient
Actually, in many states it is the law that psychologists must disclose to authorities if they believe a person could be a physical threat to others or themselves. Confidentiality rights are waived when human lives are at stake.

Just FYI...

[Codemonkey]

OK, I've had to sign my share of NDA's and intellectual property agreements, and most of them have in one way or another said the same thing... so I don't have much sympathy for ppl that get cocky and think they can get away with gossiping about something cool they just worked on...

... but what's the difference between this guy, and say Time Canada leaking the new G4 iMac before it was launched? What were the consequences there?

Just wonderin'...

[iJon]

Originally posted by Codemonkey
OK, I've had to sign my share of NDA's and intellectual property agreements, and most of them have in one way or another said the same thing... so I don't have much sympathy for ppl that get cocky and think they can get away with gossiping about something cool they just worked on...

... but what's the difference between this guy, and say Time Canada leaking the new G4 iMac before it was launched? What were the consequences there?

Just wonderin'...
apple doesnt give a s*** about this guy, he pissed apple off and they are gonna screw him over for it. Apple isnt gonna jump on Time because the put his damn computer on the front cover of their issue. No one in their right mind, especially a small company like apple isnt gonna complaln. they would just be stepping on some feet and then nobody would like em.

iJon

[SilvorX]

what apple's doing is a lil too harsh, but then again theyre trying to protect private unreleased info

[AmbitiousLemon]

This is no different then a public caining. It is not about justice. It is about sending a message. This man is being used as a whipping boy for all the many leaks that have been and may be.

If this had been handled properly one of many things could have occured, but pursuing criminal charges, arresting a man, and placing a man in jail for a crime of this nature is going way overboard.

Apple has been seeing more and more leaks lately. Even time magazine. Apple was furious with Time, but I do not recall any criminal (or civil for that matter) charges being filed. Sure Apple picks its fights. You can not attack magazines. you can not attack newspapers. You can threaten and coerce websites owners. You can attack private citizens. So even if the 'damage' done by a poorly drawn schematic on a few obscure websites is less than that of widespread leaks in national newspapers and magazines you send the message where you can. If you can not directly attack the large leaks, you make examples of the small ones. Destroy their livelyhoods. Make them spend a night or two in jail. Give them a criminal record. Make sure when they fillout their next job application they have to fill in that bubble that asks whether you have ever been arrested before. Stand him up in front of the community and display him as an example of what could happen to future leaks.

Apple is essentially attacking the mac community by attacking this man. Coerce the fan sites. Arrest the fans. Ban the fans from conventions. All so that Apple can put on a good show several times a year. Apple fans want to make educated decions when purchasing. Apple fans want to get some idea of what the future might bring. Apple, in an attempt at some media fanfare twice a year, actively prevents its most dedicated users from knowing anything about the company's future. Apple has brought these leaks on themselves. If you won't give us a roadmap what are consumers supposed to do? Contrary to popular belief, Apple does not need this level of secrecy. The secrecy is simple part of the showmanship, and has nothing to do with protecting company secrets. A picture of the outside enclosure of a powermac does not provide other companies with crucial information on how to out compete Apple. A poorly drawn schematic drawn quickly in Paint an uploaded to a fan site does not provide companies with information on how to steal Apple technology.

During the filming of Lord of the Rings rumors were flying. Snapshots of the sets were uploaded to fan sites. The same is occuring with The Matrix. Luckily, movie producers realize that this is free publicity. It generates a ferver about the product. This seems to be lost on Apple.

Legally everything Apple did is justified. But come on now people. This is the United States, in case you haven't noticed this isn't the land of the free, this is the land of the rich, the privledged. The legal system is about money, and Apple has it. The question at hand is not whether Apple is legally justified, the question is whether they are too 'harsh' and to me that means is what they are doing 'right.'

[uhlawboi80]

datazoid:

first off, i said psychoanalysts had a privelidged relationship, not that there were never exceptions. Dr's and patients have one too, but you are allowed to tell a spouse if his or her husband or wife has AIDS.

and in reality, California is one of the very few states that would hold the psychoanalyst liable for not meeting his duty to PROTECT (there is no duty to warn). tasasoff v. Board of regents of UC. Most states dont require because it does in fact violates the states medical confidentiality laws. California's duty to protect (which is easily discharged) is common law also...its not a state law.

and as for if they are a threat to themselves...all you have to do is tell them you think they are a threat to themselves and duty is discharged.

its all basic tort law

**and yes, off topic of the thread, i just hate for people to run around mis informed