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View Full Version : [phones] iOS & Blackberry dropping - Windows phone booming!




freddiecable
Apr 8, 2013, 12:47 AM
The latest "news":

http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/01/android-up-13-ios-down-7-blackberry-down-81-and-windows-phone-up-a-massive-52/

Quite clear that corporate/business users are trying Windows phone.

I still strongly believe that Apple needs to differentiate their mobile phone offer much better! You simply can not fight off the tidal wave of competitors with one or two phones.



MacRumorUser
Apr 8, 2013, 02:27 AM
The latest "news":

http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/01/android-up-13-ios-down-7-blackberry-down-81-and-windows-phone-up-a-massive-52/

Quite clear that corporate/business users are trying Windows phone.

I still strongly believe that Apple needs to differentiate their mobile phone offer much better! You simply can not fight off the tidal wave of competitors with one or two phones.

Oh yes iOS with 43% needs to really really sit down and think to itself I'm doing something seriously wrong because windows mobile is just sky-rocketing on 4.3%

Seriously - iOS is just dead. Its quite clear that if you have the biggest selling smartphone in the USA and the second highest OS inside the US despite being beaten by Android which is more than a dozen manufacturers, then you must be failing and now must pay heed to these clever 'self-analysts' that perpetuate the myth of your great demise on forums.

That tidal wave you predict is a veritable sunami (in a goldfish bowl)......

TheHateMachine
Apr 8, 2013, 11:23 AM
Oh yes iOS with 43% needs to really really sit down and think to itself I'm doing something seriously wrong because windows mobile is just sky-rocketing on 4.3%

Seriously - iOS is just dead. Its quite clear that if you have the biggest selling smartphone in the USA and the second highest OS inside the US despite being beaten by Android which is more than a dozen manufacturers, then you must be failing and now must pay heed to these clever 'self-analysts' that perpetuate the myth of your great demise on forums.

That tidal wave you predict is a veritable sunami (in a goldfish bowl)......

It is Kantar Worldpanel too! One of the biggest Apple loyalists when it came to reporting market share. Everyone would bring forth data and Kantar would always be the only ones offering up highly contradictory data in favor of Apple. I guess they must have rid themselves of their stake in Apple shares because they aren't trying to paint rosy pictures about Cupertino anymore.

Liquorpuki
Apr 8, 2013, 11:51 AM
The BB Z10 wasn't even out in Feb 13. Kinda dumb to include BB and act like it means something when their flagship phone didn't even hit the market yet.

Between Feb 12 and Feb 13, WP8 launched, which is the main reason WP went up 50%. Nothing to do with corporate penetration.

iPhones are the most differentiated phones on the market - nobody confuses them with other phones. Their problem isn't differentiation - it's that the OS has gotten stale. If they don't fix this by iOS 7, the brand will take a hit.

0dev
Apr 8, 2013, 12:32 PM
The BB Z10 wasn't even out in Feb 13. Kinda dumb to include BB and act like it means something when their flagship phone didn't even hit the market yet.

Between Feb 12 and Feb 13, WP8 launched, which is the main reason WP went up 50%. Nothing to do with corporate penetration.

iPhones are the most differentiated phones on the market - nobody confuses them with other phones. Their problem isn't differentiation - it's that the OS has gotten stale. If they don't fix this by iOS 7, the brand will take a hit.

This is basically it in a nutshell.

And while sales of older generation BlackBerries fell, they sold a million Z10's in just a couple of months. Gotta give them credit there.

Peterg2
Apr 8, 2013, 12:39 PM
This is basically it in a nutshell.

And while sales of older generation BlackBerries fell, they sold a million Z10's in just a couple of months. Gotta give them credit there.

People continue confusing *shipped* vs "sold". When Thorsten Heins was quizzed on what quantity was actually *sold* he opined somewhere between 2/3 to 3/4 of them. Still decent.

samab
Apr 8, 2013, 01:01 PM
It is Kantar Worldpanel too! One of the biggest Apple loyalists when it came to reporting market share. Everyone would bring forth data and Kantar would always be the only ones offering up highly contradictory data in favor of Apple. I guess they must have rid themselves of their stake in Apple shares because they aren't trying to paint rosy pictures about Cupertino anymore.

Yup, read the fine print and all you get is Kantar Worldpanel's numbers came from their "surveys" and not based on any actual sales numbers.

.macbookpro.
Apr 8, 2013, 04:40 PM
iPhones are the most differentiated phones on the market - nobody confuses them with other phones. Their problem isn't differentiation - it's that the OS has gotten stale. If they don't fix this by iOS 7, the brand will take a hit.

I've never heard anyone say "is that an samsung?" or "is that an iPhone?" when they see my HTC 8x. Windows Phones are the most unique and different. Nobody can confuse a windows phone for something else.

0dev
Apr 8, 2013, 04:50 PM
I've never heard anyone say "is that an samsung?" or "is that an iPhone?" when they see my HTC 8x. Windows Phones are the most unique and different. Nobody can confuse a windows phone for something else.

Probably because no one cares about Windows Phone :p

In all seriousness, Windows Phones all look the same. HTC is just copying Nokia's multicoloured designs now. Which, yes, do stand out a little, but putting some different colours on a phone isn't exactly unique.

.macbookpro.
Apr 9, 2013, 06:19 AM
Probably because no one cares about Windows Phone :p

In all seriousness, Windows Phones all look the same. HTC is just copying Nokia's multicoloured designs now. Which, yes, do stand out a little, but putting some different colours on a phone isn't exactly unique.

Do you mean the hardware or the software? I'm talking about the software, which is very different and unique. The hardware between manufacturers of windows Phones is also unique. Nokia's are heavier, thicker, bigger and shinier than HTCs, which are much taller, thinner, lighter, have a matt finish. Samsungs are just obvious, boring, look like android devices.

0dev
Apr 9, 2013, 06:48 AM
Do you mean the hardware or the software? I'm talking about the software, which is very different and unique. The hardware between manufacturers of windows Phones is also unique. Nokia's are heavier, thicker, bigger and shinier than HTCs, which are much taller, thinner, lighter, have a matt finish. Samsungs are just obvious, boring, look like android devices.

I was referring to the hardware. The software is unique yes. I quite like the software actually, and Nokia's hardware too, I just don't think the hardware is unique.

Irishman
Apr 9, 2013, 06:58 AM
The BB Z10 wasn't even out in Feb 13. Kinda dumb to include BB and act like it means something when their flagship phone didn't even hit the market yet.

Between Feb 12 and Feb 13, WP8 launched, which is the main reason WP went up 50%. Nothing to do with corporate penetration.

iPhones are the most differentiated phones on the market - nobody confuses them with other phones. Their problem isn't differentiation - it's that the OS has gotten stale. If they don't fix this by iOS 7, the brand will take a hit.

The Z10 won't help BB's bottom line that much. People have passed on it, and are waiting on the Q10.

----------

The latest "news":

http://venturebeat.com/2013/04/01/android-up-13-ios-down-7-blackberry-down-81-and-windows-phone-up-a-massive-52/

Quite clear that corporate/business users are trying Windows phone.

I still strongly believe that Apple needs to differentiate their mobile phone offer much better! You simply can not fight off the tidal wave of competitors with one or two phones.

I'm trying to figure out why the headline doesn't match the news here.

Windows Phone 8 is now available to try out. There are a tiny number of people who are trying it out. Could it be that Venture Beat is trying to attract more readers/fish with a little click bait?

----------

This is basically it in a nutshell.

And while sales of older generation BlackBerries fell, they sold a million Z10's in just a couple of months. Gotta give them credit there.

They sold 1 million Zed 10s but lost 3 million customers in the last quarter (the second straight quarterly drop).

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/blackberry-sells-1m-z10s-loses-3m-subscribers/2013-03-28

Their balance sheet ain't looking that encouraging.

Is the Z10 worth it??

0dev
Apr 9, 2013, 07:14 AM
They sold 1 million Zed 10s but lost 3 million customers in the last quarter (the second straight quarterly drop).

http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/blackberry-sells-1m-z10s-loses-3m-subscribers/2013-03-28

Their balance sheet ain't looking that encouraging.

Is the Z10 worth it??

That's because sales of old BlackBerries are dropping, which is to be expected.

Why don't you think their balance sheet is encouraging? They made a decent profit and sales will only improve when the Q10 drops.

Irishman
Apr 9, 2013, 07:26 AM
That's because sales of old BlackBerries are dropping, which is to be expected.

Why don't you think their balance sheet is encouraging? They made a decent profit and sales will only improve when the Q10 drops.

I can't imagine the Z10 will reach 2 million units, ESPECIALLY once the Q10 comes out. BB hasn't just lost sales of their other phones, that article linked to BB users who aren't BB users anymore - at all. They find nothing compelling in BB's stable of phones to keep them there for 2 more years.

So they're going elsewhere.

Two consecutive quarters of user loss just as you're bringing out your new OS and flagship phone? That SHOULD be enough to avoid losing 3 times as many users as you're selling of the Z10.

But it's not. That's the scary spot BB is in now.

samab
Apr 9, 2013, 01:36 PM
I can't imagine the Z10 will reach 2 million units, ESPECIALLY once the Q10 comes out.

Even the Playbook has sold more than 2.3 million units now.

Irishman
Apr 9, 2013, 05:46 PM
Even the Playbook has sold more than 2.3 million units now.

Most of those did not happen within the past 2 quarters.

samab
Apr 9, 2013, 06:18 PM
Most of those did not happen within the past 2 quarters.

They sold a million Playbooks in the last year (500K in the last 2 quarters).

Your claims are wildly exaggerated.

Irishman
Apr 9, 2013, 06:25 PM
They sold a million Playbooks in the last year (500K in the last 2 quarters).

Your claims are wildly exaggerated.

My "wildly exaggerated claims" are that the Playbook sales have little in common with Z10 sales because one is a tablet and one is a smartphone running BB10.

What is your point in introducing the Playbook as though is communicates something important to the discussion about the Z10??

0dev
Apr 9, 2013, 07:14 PM
I can't imagine the Z10 will reach 2 million units, ESPECIALLY once the Q10 comes out. BB hasn't just lost sales of their other phones, that article linked to BB users who aren't BB users anymore - at all. They find nothing compelling in BB's stable of phones to keep them there for 2 more years.

What are you basing these claims on? They have already sold a million Z10's in the past two months and around 50% of Z10 buyers are new BlackBerry customers. They've managed to do this without even releasing a BB10 device with a physical keyboard, which is basically their signature feature.

Two consecutive quarters of user loss just as you're bringing out your new OS and flagship phone? That SHOULD be enough to avoid losing 3 times as many users as you're selling of the Z10.

But it's not. That's the scary spot BB is in now.

Again, the users are defecting from older generation BlackBerries.

Let me use pictures since you don't seem to understand the difference.

People are buying less of these:

http://i.imgur.com/hy3i2vj.jpg

But, instead, they're buying more of these:

http://i.imgur.com/AJNyAB3.jpg

samab
Apr 9, 2013, 08:22 PM
My "wildly exaggerated claims" are that the Playbook sales have little in common with Z10 sales because one is a tablet and one is a smartphone running BB10.

What is your point in introducing the Playbook as though is communicates something important to the discussion about the Z10??

Even the most criticized product, a product that was penned to be a major failure --- managed to sell more than 2 million units. That's my point.

H.e.l.l. they managed to sell the first million units without a native email client.

Irishman
Apr 9, 2013, 08:32 PM
What are you basing these claims on? They have already sold a million Z10's in the past two months and around 50% of Z10 buyers are new BlackBerry customers. They've managed to do this without even releasing a BB10 device with a physical keyboard, which is basically their signature feature.



Again, the users are defecting from older generation BlackBerries.

Let me use pictures since you don't seem to understand the difference.

People are buying less of these:

Image (http://i.imgur.com/hy3i2vj.jpg)

But, instead, they're buying more of these:

Image (http://i.imgur.com/AJNyAB3.jpg)

Incorrect. The article I linked to above clarifies the reality that BB sold 1 million Z10s, BUT, and here's the oh-so-important part - they LOST 3 million subscribers. This cannot be spun into a victory for BB, those 3 million people did NOT throw their old Bolds away and resubscribe with the Z10!

0dev
Apr 9, 2013, 08:45 PM
Incorrect. The article I linked to above clarifies the reality that BB sold 1 million Z10s, BUT, and here's the oh-so-important part - they LOST 3 million subscribers. This cannot be spun into a victory for BB, those 3 million people did NOT throw their old Bolds away and resubscribe with the Z10!

Subscribers means people using the BIS network. You do realise that the Z10 does not require people to use the BIS network, yes?

Plus, in terms of the company performance as a whole, they just made a $98m profit in the last quarter. Considering they've done that despite making a massive loss just a year earlier, I'd say they're already recovering very well and as long as developers put out BB10 apps I have full confidence BlackBerries will be around for some time yet.

And like I said, over 50% of Z10 customers are new to BlackBerry. They're bringing in new customers with BB10 already.

Tinmania
Apr 9, 2013, 08:47 PM
Again, the users are defecting from older generation BlackBerries.

Yes and a disturbing number--for Blackberry--are not choosing Blackberry at all for their next device.

I think even BB knows the race they are in is for 3rd place.



Michael

0dev
Apr 9, 2013, 08:54 PM
Yes and a disturbing number--for Blackberry--are not choosing Blackberry at all for their next device.

I think even BB knows the race they are in is for 3rd place.



Michael

No one's claiming they're about to overtake Apple and Samsung, that absolutely won't happen anytime soon, but they still have a place in the market.

The smartphone market, however, is very fickle. It used to be owned by BlackBerries, then it was Apple, now it's Samsung, and eventually it'll be someone else. Mainly this is because all these companies fall into the trap of sticking to what they know and not innovating until they're forced to due to increasing competition (iOS is the same as it was in 2007, BlackBerries were same as they were in 2004 until recently, the S4 is functionally the same as the S3).

No one stays at the top for long in this game anyway. Staying at the top forever doesn't matter - what matters is still serving your customers and making money, both of which BlackBerry is currently doing.

Tinmania
Apr 9, 2013, 09:04 PM
No one's claiming they're about to overtake Apple and Samsung, that absolutely won't happen anytime soon, but they still have a place in the market.

The smartphone market, however, is very fickle. It used to be owned by BlackBerries, then it was Apple, now it's Samsung, and eventually it'll be someone else. Mainly this is because all these companies fall into the trap of sticking to what they know and not innovating until they're forced to due to increasing competition (iOS is the same as it was in 2007, BlackBerries were same as they were in 2004 until recently, the S4 is functionally the same as the S3).

No one stays at the top for long in this game anyway. Staying at the top forever doesn't matter - what matters is still serving your customers and making money, both of which BlackBerry is currently doing.

The problem for BB is they didn't build an empire of the willing. Apple and Samsung did. The backbone of BB's success was that it was sold to enterprise, and given to users with little choice. The consumer chosen market of BB didn't hold up to competition. Apple at least is still holding their own--certainly they are profit-wise.

As for 3rd place I would say that has a lot riding on how much MS is willing to throw into it.



Michael

0dev
Apr 9, 2013, 09:15 PM
The problem for BB is they didn't build an empire of the willing. Apple and Samsung did. The backbone of BB's success was that it was sold to enterprise, and given to users with little choice. The consumer chosen market of BB didn't hold up to competition. Apple at least is still holding their own--certainly they are profit-wise.

As for 3rd place I would say that has a lot riding on how much MS is willing to throw into it.



Michael

I'd disagree with that. Yes BB aimed at enterprise first, but customers had other smartphones to choose from - Nokia had Symbian S60 and Microsoft had Windows Mobile which HTC and Samsung used at the time. But most of them chose BlackBerries because the brand was popular, the devices were seen as a status symbol, and people liked the convenience of the amount of connectivity BBs offered.

Irishman
Apr 11, 2013, 03:40 PM
Subscribers means people using the BIS network. You do realise that the Z10 does not require people to use the BIS network, yes?

Plus, in terms of the company performance as a whole, they just made a $98m profit in the last quarter. Considering they've done that despite making a massive loss just a year earlier, I'd say they're already recovering very well and as long as developers put out BB10 apps I have full confidence BlackBerries will be around for some time yet.

And like I said, over 50% of Z10 customers are new to BlackBerry. They're bringing in new customers with BB10 already.

Further, according to this Wall Street Journal article, returns of the Z10 outnumber sales.

http://blogs.wsj.com/canadarealtime/2013/04/11/digits-analyst-says-blackberry-z10-returns-outnumber-sales/?mod=yahoo_hs

Not looking good for BB!

samab
Apr 11, 2013, 06:28 PM
Further, according to this Wall Street Journal article, returns of the Z10 outnumber sales.

http://blogs.wsj.com/canadarealtime/2013/04/11/digits-analyst-says-blackberry-z10-returns-outnumber-sales/?mod=yahoo_hs

Not looking good for BB!

An idiotic rumor that Blackberry categorically denied.

A lot of numbers that bloggers are throwing are crap because they all start with flawed browser analytics which nobody ever identifies Playbook/Z10 browser as a Blackberry.

http://stevesstats.blogspot.ca/2013/02/blackberry-z10-identification.html

Statcounter is the only one that is correctly identifying the Z10

http://crackberry.com/message-rim-fix-way-google-analytics-reports-blackberry-browser-data-new-devices-youre-helping-compe

And this is a problem that went all the way back to the original Playbook launch.

http://forums.crackberry.com/general-blackberry-discussion-f2/bb10-browser-shows-safari-analytics-791528/

Which Google Analytics still haven't fixed 2 years later.

The only analytics firm that is correctly identifying the Z10 as a Blackberry is showing that at least in the UK, the bloggers are talking crap. Statcounter is showing a slow and steady market share gain in the UK --- and more importantly not a random sampling error.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-GB-weekly-201305-201314

Irishman
Apr 11, 2013, 06:37 PM
An idiotic rumor that Blackberry categorically denied.

A lot of numbers that bloggers are throwing are crap because they all start with flawed browser analytics which nobody ever identifies Playbook/Z10 browser as a Blackberry.

http://stevesstats.blogspot.ca/2013/02/blackberry-z10-identification.html

Statcounter is the only one that is correctly identifying the Z10

http://crackberry.com/message-rim-fix-way-google-analytics-reports-blackberry-browser-data-new-devices-youre-helping-compe

And this is a problem that went all the way back to the original Playbook launch.

http://forums.crackberry.com/general-blackberry-discussion-f2/bb10-browser-shows-safari-analytics-791528/

Which Google Analytics still haven't fixed 2 years later.

The only analytics firm that is correctly identifying the Z10 as a Blackberry is showing that at least in the UK, the bloggers are talking crap. Statcounter is showing a slow and steady market share gain in the UK --- and more importantly not a random sampling error.

http://gs.statcounter.com/#mobile_os-GB-weekly-201305-201314

Wow! This really hits you close. Jeez, man, you're gonna have a stroke.

Why take it personally? It's a business.

0dev
Apr 12, 2013, 04:13 AM
Wow! This really hits you close. Jeez, man, you're gonna have a stroke.

Why take it personally? It's a business.

Ironic coming from the guy who's pulling at straws to discredit BB. Every time I see you in the alternatives forum all I see is you saying "everything but the iPhone sucks!" You're either a fanboy, a troll, or both. Probably both.

Irishman
Apr 12, 2013, 06:10 AM
Ironic coming from the guy who's pulling at straws to discredit BB. Every time I see you in the alternatives forum all I see is you saying "everything but the iPhone sucks!" You're either a fanboy, a troll, or both. Probably both.

I think of myself as balanced. You clearly haven't read my posts except to argue, otherwise you'd know I'm not an iPhone fanboy(don't own one - I've made it clear in alternatives what phone I do own), nor a troll.

Please. Give me a break.

Hastings101
Apr 12, 2013, 11:10 AM
Oh yes iOS with 43% needs to really really sit down and think to itself I'm doing something seriously wrong because windows mobile is just sky-rocketing on 4.3%

Seriously - iOS is just dead. Its quite clear that if you have the biggest selling smartphone in the USA and the second highest OS inside the US despite being beaten by Android which is more than a dozen manufacturers, then you must be failing and now must pay heed to these clever 'self-analysts' that perpetuate the myth of your great demise on forums.

That tidal wave you predict is a veritable sunami (in a goldfish bowl)......

I'm sure the Blackberry people thought the same thing in the past :p. Not say that isn't true in this case, just that it's always wise to remember there's competition out there and sometimes it actually is better.

samab
Apr 12, 2013, 11:55 AM
I think of myself as balanced. You clearly haven't read my posts except to argue, otherwise you'd know I'm not an iPhone fanboy(don't own one - I've made it clear in alternatives what phone I do own), nor a troll.

Please. Give me a break.

I am a lot more balance than you. If you read the links that I posted, you will see that I specifically stated that this is all RIM's fault for not fixing this issue.

http://forums.crackberry.com/general-blackberry-discussion-f2/bb10-browser-shows-safari-analytics-791528/#post8259102

Even if RIM can't convince Google to change their analytics software --- at the very least, RIM should be talking to Wall Street analysts and internet bloggers to tell them that Google Analytics is wrong and they shouldn't judge Blackberry's market share based on these flawed data.

Irishman
Apr 12, 2013, 12:23 PM
I am a lot more balance than you. If you read the links that I posted, you will see that I specifically stated that this is all RIM's fault for not fixing this issue.

http://forums.crackberry.com/general-blackberry-discussion-f2/bb10-browser-shows-safari-analytics-791528/#post8259102

Even if RIM can't convince Google to change their analytics software --- at the very least, RIM should be talking to Wall Street analysts and internet bloggers to tell them that Google Analytics is wrong and they shouldn't judge Blackberry's market share based on these flawed data.

If you go back through my posts on this thread, you'll see that nowhere have I blamed BB for anything. I'm just sharing my opinions on whether certain moves were going to be beneficial for BB in the long term, AND I linked to an article that gave data that seemed to fortify my belief.

How is that me excoriating BB?

samab
Apr 12, 2013, 02:30 PM
If you go back through my posts on this thread, you'll see that nowhere have I blamed BB for anything. I'm just sharing my opinions on whether certain moves were going to be beneficial for BB in the long term, AND I linked to an article that gave data that seemed to fortify my belief.

How is that me excoriating BB?

You specifically stated that balance sheet not well --- which is completely untrue. RIM is debt free and cash flow positive.

Then you come out with your can't sell another million units statement --- RIM sold the first million Playbook without a native email client and sold another 500K in just the last 2 quarters (with vastly underpowered CPU).

Even if all hell breaks loose, RIM can still discount the Z10 to make that second million units easily --- and not hurt their profit margin at all because the Z10 uses a mid 2012 CPU (aka Samsung S3 hardware). It is much cheaper for RIM to make the Z10 using a mid 2012 dual core CPU.

Tinmania
Apr 12, 2013, 05:49 PM
RIM sold the first million Playbook without a native email client and sold another 500K in just the last 2 quarters (with vastly underpowered CPU).

You are touting that as a good thing?? :confused:




Mike