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MacRumors
Apr 23, 2013, 03:46 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/23/apple-seeds-build-12e36-of-os-x-beta-10-8-4-developers/)


Apple today issued (http://9to5mac.com/2013/04/23/apple-seeds-os-x-10-8-4-beta-build-12e36-to-developers) build 12E36 of OS X Mountain Lion to developers, roughly a week after build 12E33a (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/17/apple-seeds-build-12e33a-of-os-x-beta-10-8-4-to-developers/) was released. Build 12E36 marks the fourth beta iteration of OS X 10.8.4.
http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/04/12e36-800x557.pngApple continues to ask developers to focus on Wi-Fi, Graphics Drivers, and Safari.

The update is available through the software update tool in the Mac App Store and*Apple's Developer Page (https://developer.apple.com/).

Article Link: Apple Seeds Build 12E36 of OS X Beta 10.8.4 Developers (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/23/apple-seeds-build-12e36-of-os-x-beta-10-8-4-developers/)



CrazyForApple
Apr 23, 2013, 03:55 PM
here it goes again...

j-a-x
Apr 23, 2013, 03:57 PM
I'm a dev with seed access and I can't decide if it's worth downloading this or not. I wish they'd be more specific about changes.

Peace
Apr 23, 2013, 03:58 PM
At least Safari is up to 6.0.5 now.

bedifferent
Apr 23, 2013, 04:06 PM
Only 8 more beta's to go

Schmitty11
Apr 23, 2013, 04:22 PM
I just took a nap and am getting ready to have dinner. Where's my story?

Xenomorph
Apr 23, 2013, 04:50 PM
At least Safari is up to 6.0.5 now.

...but is it snappier?

sundragon
Apr 23, 2013, 04:55 PM
I encountered kernel panic and not waking from sleep in the previous release.

Enough whining about how long this takes and let them get it right!

Michael Goff
Apr 23, 2013, 05:04 PM
...but is it snappier?

Isn't it always?

bedifferent
Apr 23, 2013, 05:33 PM
Isn't it always?

I will it admit, every beta release has improved Safari noticeably. I knew some sites weren't loading as some sites weren't updated, which some associated with the reloading lag in Safari. However I haven't experienced reloading the page every time I navigate.

Now, if only Apple released better OpenGL support (and a new Mac Pro) :o

Mr. Retrofire
Apr 23, 2013, 06:30 PM
I'm a dev with seed access and I can't decide if it's worth downloading this or not. I wish they'd be more specific about changes.
Open the delta update with Pacifist.

slicecom
Apr 23, 2013, 06:58 PM
I'm a dev with seed access and I can't decide if it's worth downloading this or not. I wish they'd be more specific about changes.

If you're a dev, wouldn't it be worth it to test your software with every beta?

Michael Goff
Apr 23, 2013, 07:14 PM
I will it admit, every beta release has improved Safari noticeably. I knew some sites weren't loading as some sites weren't updated, which some associated with the reloading lag in Safari. However I haven't experienced reloading the page every time I navigate.

Now, if only Apple released better OpenGL support (and a new Mac Pro) :o

Better OpenGL support?

I mean, it isn't like both Linux and Windows have good OpenGL support or anything, I'm sure it's fine. >_>

<_<

RedGeminiPA
Apr 23, 2013, 07:15 PM
I will it admit, every beta release has improved Safari noticeably. I knew some sites weren't loading as some sites weren't updated, which some associated with the reloading lag in Safari. However I haven't experienced reloading the page every time I navigate.

Now, if only Apple released better OpenGL support (and a new Mac Pro) :o

So, does Safari still reload when going back a page? That's the most annoying aspect with recent Safari versions... well, other than the huge WebProcess sucking up RAM.

bedifferent
Apr 23, 2013, 07:34 PM
So, does Safari still reload when going back a page? That's the most annoying aspect with recent Safari versions... well, other than the huge WebProcess sucking up RAM.

So far it seems much better. Can't say much as I'm not a web developer :o


Better OpenGL support?

I mean, it isn't like both Linux and Windows have good OpenGL support or anything, I'm sure it's fine. >_>

<_<

This has been a contention with many for years. Currently, Apple only supports object shading in 4.1. Nada for 4.0, and only 5/10 for 3.3. 4.0+ support has only recently been developed. Other platforms are faring much better in that department. :)

Michael Goff
Apr 23, 2013, 07:40 PM
So far it seems much better. Can't say much as I'm not a web developer :o




This has been a contention with many for years. Currently, Apple only supports object shading in 4.1. Nada for 4.0, and only 5/10 for 3.3. 4.0+ support has only recently been developed. Other platforms are faring much better in that department. :)

The really horrible part is when somebody said that my Intel HD 4000 was the thing holding me back when it came to OpenGL support... yet on the Windows side I have support for 4.0 because Intel added support a while back (december or so).

It's frustrating.

bedifferent
Apr 23, 2013, 07:47 PM
The really horrible part is when somebody said that my Intel HD 4000 was the thing holding me back when it came to OpenGL support... yet on the Windows side I have support for 4.0 because Intel added support a while back (december or so).

It's frustrating.

Exactly. I miss the OS X focused days, before 10.7. MacRumors and such used to have front page threads when OS X 10.X beta's were released (every 1-2 weeks during a 1-1/2 year testing period). A lot of beta's had new features (even ZFS was tested out in Leopard beta's). Now it seems iOS and social networking integration are main focuses, stability and improved support - not so much. :o

----------

If you're a dev, wouldn't it be worth it to test your software with every beta?

This is a good point, and one that makes me dislike the DP's that replaced the clean installs required for 10.X beta releases. As a developer, a clean install for a major release is a better gauge at debugging, etc. than installing beta's over other beta's. Developers (generally) have experienced more issues since 10.7 than before (at least, for those I know).

Michael Goff
Apr 23, 2013, 07:51 PM
Exactly. I miss the OS X focused days, before 10.7. MacRumors and such used to have front page threads when OS X 10.X beta's were released (every 1-2 weeks during a 1-1/2 year testing period). A lot of beta's had new features (even ZFS was tested out in Leopard beta's). Now it seems iOS and social networking integration are main focuses, stability and improved support - not so much. :o.

This is my first Mac, so I wasn't around back then.

I'm a bit disappointed, though. When I read about the yearly release cycle, I thought that meant Macs were getting center stage.

Then again, I got a Mac because I heard OS X was optimized for the hardware... which I like the idea of.

cmChimera
Apr 23, 2013, 09:42 PM
Another beta, another thread of people whining about OS X.

Nomax2000
Apr 24, 2013, 03:21 AM
What is the version of the nvidia driver?

kissmo
Apr 24, 2013, 04:49 AM
After the update - for me - it looks like it fixed a bug in rearranging apps in the LaunchPad.

Didn't notice any improvement on any other fields.
I have a MBP 17 inch.

What can I say... waiting for 10.9 and the second coming of Christ.

We'll see which one comes first....

JGRE
Apr 24, 2013, 08:06 AM
[QUOTE=bedifferent;17183605]Exactly. I miss the OS X focused days, before 10.7. MacRumors and such used to have front page threads when OS X 10.X beta's were released (every 1-2 weeks during a 1-1/2 year testing period). A lot of beta's had new features (even ZFS was tested out in Leopard beta's). Now it seems iOS and social networking integration are main focuses, stability and improved support - not so much. :o[COLOR="#808080"]

Hope the social media hype is over soon.....:mad:

DMH3006
Apr 24, 2013, 08:14 AM
After the update - for me - it looks like it fixed a bug in rearranging apps in the LaunchPad.

Didn't notice any improvement on any other fields.
I have a MBP 17 inch.

What can I say... waiting for 10.9 and the second coming of Christ.

We'll see which one comes first....

Safari memory management seems like it has improved.

Mr. Retrofire
Apr 24, 2013, 08:39 AM
Safari memory management seems like it has improved.
You mean WebKit!?

Michael Goff
Apr 24, 2013, 09:21 AM
Another beta, another thread of people whining about OS X.

And why do you think people are whining about OS X?

cmChimera
Apr 24, 2013, 10:28 AM
And why do you think people are whining about OS X?

Multiple reasons. Some valid, many more just complaints about insignificant things. For example, Apple's "focus" on iOS.

Michael Goff
Apr 24, 2013, 10:34 AM
Multiple reasons. Some valid, many more just complaints about insignificant things. For example, Apple's "focus" on iOS.

Most of what I read in these beta threads are:
-Shutdown
-Startup
-OpenGL
-Safari

I haven't read many complaints in these beta threads about the "focus on iOS", aside from the fact that they did move people from OS X to iOS apparently.

cmChimera
Apr 24, 2013, 10:41 AM
Most of what I read in these beta threads are:
-Shutdown
-Startup
-OpenGL
-Safari

I haven't read many complaints in these beta threads about the "focus on iOS", aside from the fact that they did move people from OS X to iOS apparently.

From THIS thread:Now it seems iOS and social networking integration are main focusesHope the social media hype is over soon.....

Michael Goff
Apr 24, 2013, 10:43 AM
From THIS thread:

Okay, yes, there are a tiny amount of people who do these sorts of things. I'm just saying that 80% of complaints would die out if they worked on those areas.

bedifferent
Apr 24, 2013, 11:44 AM
Okay, yes, there are a tiny amount of people who do these sorts of things. I'm just saying that 80% of complaints would die out if they worked on those areas.

As well, those "complaints" of iOS and social media integration have merit as they have been focusing much of their software engineering on those features with less focus on OpenGL and improved graphics support (these beta's address such but as a developer there has been little momentum in advancements). Pro-Apps such as Aperture and Final Cut Pro X even have Facebook integration. Many threads with professional photographers address the frustrations regarding Apple's lack of pro-apps aside from social media integration which most do not use as it leads to little business aside from people "liking" their page and asking for free head-shots or work. This has been a contention with those of us who have used pro-apps for years for work. Adobe has picked up in the pro department, their latest Lightroom release is winning praise from photographers as many are leaving Aperture due to Apple's neglect for Adobe CS6. A few years ago this would have been laughed at as Apple was doing well.

Those who claim the pro-market is "niche" are now eating those words as Apple stock is tumbling and a large amount of the pro-market has switched to other platforms and pro-apps. While not a large market as the consumer market, the consumer market has become over saturated, and growth (outside of China which has proven difficult for Apple to tap into) is flatlining. The pro-market has bank, a lot of, and much of that goes into updating hardware and software licenses. Doing the math, that "niche" market is still a large percentage profit wise when studios and businesses have tens if not hundreds of thousands to spend on upgrades. That isn't chump change.

HFS+ is long in the tooth, especially as large volumes and servers are becoming commonplace in the average home (shame ZFS licensing fell to the wayside as Apple did explore ZFS in Leopard beta's, which would have improved OS X use of large volumes such as Time Machine and media storage). My parents even have a Synology DS212j with a Mac Mini as their HTPC. Linux based, which means OS X has to use SMB or AFP to access media outside of Synology's Assistant app. 10.7 had the worst revamp in network protocols, much of which was remedied with 10.8 but still needs some improvements. A good deal would be facilitated by quicker adoption of wireless ac. Apple was ahead of the game when they adopted Wireless-N years ago before many big players, what is keeping them from being ahead of the curve in wireless ac hardware and supporting kexts? This is a deviation from OS X advancements that made OS X a better OS.

Multiple reasons. Some valid, many more just complaints about insignificant things. For example, Apple's "focus" on iOS.

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least, you have some very valid points that I absolutely recognize. Social media, whether fad or not, is a big market and Apple is wise in integrating such into their main products. However, much of Forstall's influence in Apple was strong arming OS X engineers into further iOS integration at the cost of a more stable and advanced OS X. Recall that Leopard was delayed (http://appleinsider.com/articles/07/04/12/apple_delays_leopard_release_until_october) a few times as iOS development pulled OS X engineers away. Apple is notorious for hiring cross platform engineers and keeping a small team as Jobs wanted to know everyone on the teams and keep a tight hold on those engineers. This was one of many factors that lead to Serlet leaving and Federighi taking over OS X software engineering with 10.7. 10.6 Snow Leopard was (arguably) one of the most polished OS X releases to date. Serlet became increasingly frustrated with engineer focus on iOS and Forstall's influence over Jobs. Serlet had little to do with 10.7 Lion, that was Federighi's baby. We all know how that went.

I know first hand this has been happening with OS X. It is a shame as past OS X updates were generally ahead of the curve, that has absolutely changed since 10.7.

LordDeath
Apr 24, 2013, 11:50 AM
With this beta my MBA 2012 has problems connecting to my access point, which is sending on channel 13 (2,4 GHz). Changing the channel to a lower value solves these connection problems.
Has this beta changed my WiFi regulatory domain to the wrong one? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_WLAN_channels

Robert.Walter
Apr 24, 2013, 12:45 PM
Hope they eventually fix:
- failure for mail client to authenticate yahoo and to keep asking for password,
- failure for wifi backup from my iPh 4s to my new Mac mini (seems not to wake from sleep)

cmChimera
Apr 24, 2013, 01:03 PM
As well, those "complaints" of iOS and social media integration have merit as they have been focusing much of their software engineering on those features with less focus on OpenGL and improved graphics support (these beta's address such but as a developer there has been little momentum), pro-Apps such as Aperture and Final Cut Pro X even have Facebook integration. I highly doubt it take a substantial amount of resources to include Facebook integration in an app. Accordingly, I doubt it has a substantial effect on development of this software. Many threads with professional photographers address the frustrations regarding Apple's lack of pro-apps aside from social media integration which most do not use as it leads to little business aside from people "liking" their page and asking for free head-shots or work. This has been a contention with those of us who have used pro-apps for years for work. Adobe has picked up in the pro department, their latest Lightroom release is winning praise from photographers as many are leaving Aperture due to Apple's neglect for Adobe CS6. Yawn.

HFS+ is long in the tooth, especially as large volumes and servers are becoming commonplace in the average home (shame ZFS licensing fell to the wayside as Apple did explore ZFS in Leopard beta's, which would have improved OS X use of large volumes such as Time Machine and media storage). My parents even have a Synology DS212j with a Mac Mini as their HTPC. Linux based, which means OS X has to use SMB or AFP to access media outside of Synology's Assistant app. 10.7 had the worst revamp in network protocols, much of which was remedied with 10.8 but still needs some improvements. A good deal would be facilitated by quicker adoption of wireless ac. Apple was ahead of the game when they adopted Wireless-N years ago before many big players, what is keeping them from being ahead of the curve in wireless ac hardware and supporting kexts? This is a deviation from OS X advancements that made OS X a better OS. It's likely that Macs will 802.11ac this year. That's pretty early adoption.

However, much of Forstall's influence in Apple was strong arming OS X engineers into further iOS integration at the cost of a more stable and advanced OS X. Baseless. Let me be clear though, that integration is one of the best features of iOS and Mac. Recall that Leopard was delayed a few times as iOS development pulled OS X engineers away. And as of a result, they had two OS release the same year, and everyone was happy. This practice is not uncommon, and happened LONG before you are claiming things went to hell. So shouldn't that be a sign that Apple is acting as it always acted? Apple is notorious for hiring cross platform engineers and keeping a small team as Jobs wanted to know everyone on the teams and keep a tight hold on those engineers. This was one of many factors that lead to Serlet leaving and Federighi taking over OS X software engineering with 10.7. 10.6 Snow Leopard was (arguably) one of the most polished OS X releases to date. Serlet became increasingly frustrated with engineer focus on iOS and Forstall's influence over Jobs. Serlet had little to do with 10.7 Lion, that was Federighi's baby. We all know how that went. Is there anything credible to support any of this?

I know first hand this has been happening with OS X. It is a shame as past OS X updates were generally ahead of the curve, that has absolutely changed since 10.7. As Windows struggles to get notification center, and has switched to a yearly model just to keep up...Yeah. Seems legit.

bedifferent
Apr 24, 2013, 01:08 PM
I highly doubt it take a substantial amount of resources to include Facebook integration in an app. Accordingly, I doubt it has a substantial effect on development of this software. Yawn.

It's likely that Macs will 802.11ac this year. That's pretty early adoption.

Baseless. And as of a result, they had two OS release the same year, and everyone was happy. This practice is not uncommon, and happened LONG before you are claiming things went to hell. So shouldn't that be a sign that Apple is acting as it always acted? Is there anything credible to support any of this?

As Windows struggles to get notification center, and has switched to a yearly model just to keep up...Yeah. Seems legit.

"Yawn" and "baseless" replies with little to no sources to support such as opposed to the sources I referenced to support my claims comes across as disrespectful and pointless. I did not disrespect your comments and opinions with similar remarks, instead I respected and acknowledged your comments and responded with respectful and supported claims whereas your responses are personal and lack merit as they are opinion based.

As for Serlet, it's already widely known that many at Cupertino did not agree nor respect Scott Forstall's influence. Cue and Mansfield being the most vocal, and Serlet's departure was in part due to his frustrations with Forstall's influence over OS X development. If you need sources, Google is a good place to start. Scott Forstall's firing alongside S.V.P. of Retail John Browett's short lived tenure (April-Oct 2012) was a long time in coming and one reason why Bob Mansfield decided on delaying his retirement that was announced earlier in 2012. In fact, MacRumors covered this last November:

Bob Mansfield's Return to Apple Reportedly Influenced by Scott Forstall's Departure
(http://www.macrumors.com/2012/11/01/bob-mansfields-return-to-apple-reportedly-influenced-by-scott-forstalls-departure/)

There's a source to back that claim right off this site :)


Lastly, as I have not respond disrespectfully, it is not unreasonable to expect a mature and cordial response. As such, unless you wish to continue this respectfully or in PM's, nothing more needs to be addressed, especially at the expense of members who wish to engage in informative and cordial exchanges. Otherwise, it seems juvenile. :)

mag01
Apr 24, 2013, 01:25 PM
Anyone noticed that they've replaced the "Wi-Fi Diagnostics" app (/System/Library/CoreServices/Wi-Fi\ Diagnostics.app/) with "Wireless Diagnostics" (/System/Library/CoreServices/Wireless\ Diagnostics.app/)?
This new one seems to lack the "Network Utilities" functionality where especially the Wi-Fi Scan (http://osxdaily.com/2012/07/31/wi-fi-scanner-mac-os-x-mountain-lion/) tool was pretty useful.

Update: It actually changed in the first beta 12E27.

DMH3006
Apr 24, 2013, 01:27 PM
You mean WebKit!?

No idea but it seems like it isn't that big of a memory hog,used my normal usage,normal would be like 800MB web content usage and 700-800 inactive memory,after upgrading 320MB inactive and 680MB active for the web content one so it seems to be better managing it.

bedifferent
Apr 24, 2013, 01:28 PM
Anyone noticed that they've replaced the "Wi-Fi Diagnostics" app (/System/Library/CoreServices/Wi-Fi\ Diagnostics.app/) with "Wireless Diagnostics" (/System/Library/CoreServices/Wireless\ Diagnostics.app/)?
This new one seems to lack the "Network Utilities" functionality where especially the Wi-Fi Scan (http://osxdaily.com/2012/07/31/wi-fi-scanner-mac-os-x-mountain-lion/) tool was pretty useful.

Update: It actually changed in the first beta 12E27.

Good catch. Running it right now, definitely an interesting change. I still prefer using the Alt/Option key while clicking on the Airport menu item as well as Wi-Fi in System Report for more information on channels, transmit rates and information on other local wireless networks to fine tune my WLAN and systems. :)

I also noticed "Network Diagnostics" in CoreServices. What is the difference? One is purely for Wireless networking, while the other for more robust networking diagnostics? Thanks!

mag01
Apr 24, 2013, 01:40 PM
I also noticed "Network Diagnostics" in CoreServices. What is the difference? One is purely for Wireless networking, while the other for more robust networking diagnostics? Thanks!Yes, I noticed that too. It seems to be some sort of general "step-by-step" network connectivity troubleshooting/setup tool.

bedifferent
Apr 24, 2013, 01:43 PM
Yes, I noticed that too. It seems to be some sort of general "step-by-step" network connectivity troubleshooting/setup tool.

Interestingly, you can keep it running in the background to monitor your wireless connectivity. I assume that means you can get a log and summary of how your connection performs/ed and methods to improve it.

SanJacinto
Apr 24, 2013, 01:51 PM
As for Serlet, it's already widely known that many at Cupertino did not agree nor respect Scott Forstall's influence. Cue and Mansfield being the most vocal, and Serlet's departure was in part due to his frustrations with Forstall's influence over OS X development. If you need sources, Google is a good place to start. Scott Forstall's firing alongside S.V.P. of Retail John Browett's short lived tenure (April-Oct 2012) was a long time in coming and one reason why Bob Mansfield decided on delaying his retirement that was announced earlier in 2012. In fact, MacRumors covered this last November:

Bob Mansfield's Return to Apple Reportedly Influenced by Scott Forstall's Departure
(http://www.macrumors.com/2012/11/01/bob-mansfields-return-to-apple-reportedly-influenced-by-scott-forstalls-departure/)


I read your post earlier this day regarding Bertrand Serlet and his departure.
I have always ask myself, why did Serlet leave?

We never saw him in day to day business, nor Ive, Forstall or Federighi, but over the years I got the feeling that Serlet and Tevanian where OS designer one of a kind.
I searched a little bit and was able to find tension between Forstall and Ive as well as Mansfield and Forstall but nothing regarding Forstall and Serlet.

I think you maybe have some insight we don't have. I am eager to learn more about this but I know that this forum is not the quite place to share information like that.

Sometimes I wish Serlet will return to Apple and become a dream team together with Ive.

Thanks for your posts.

cmChimera
Apr 24, 2013, 01:51 PM
"Yawn" and "baseless" replies with little to no sources to support such as opposed to the sources I referenced to support my claims comes across as disrespectful and pointless. I did not disrespect your comments and opinions with similar remarks, instead I respected and acknowledged your comments and responded with respectful and supported claims whereas your responses are personal and lack merit as they are opinion based. You didn't source anything, you simply made conclusions. That's the very definition of the word "baseless."

As for Serlet, it's already widely known that many at Cupertino did not agree nor respect Scott Forstall's influence. Cue and Mansfield being the most vocal, and Serlet's departure was in part due to his frustrations with Forstall's influence over OS X development. If you need sources, Google is a good place to start. Scott Forstall's firing alongside S.V.P. of Retail John Browett's short lived tenure (April-Oct 2012) was a long time in coming and one reason why Bob Mansfield decided on delaying his retirement that was announced earlier in 2012. In fact, MacRumors covered this last November:

Bob Mansfield's Return to Apple Reportedly Influenced by Scott Forstall's Departure
(http://www.macrumors.com/2012/11/01/bob-mansfields-return-to-apple-reportedly-influenced-by-scott-forstalls-departure/)

There's a source to back that claim right off this site :)


There is a fundamental difference between saying Apple employees didn't like Forstall's attitude and Serlet left because Forstall wanted iOS integration and Serlet didn't. You are simply making that up. In fact, Serlet had nothing but compliments for Mac OS X Lion. Such as: "Craig has done a great job managing the Mac OS team for the past two years," Serlet said at the time. "Lion is a great release and the transition should be seamless."

It's not disrespectful for me to call out a baseless claim for being baseless. It simply isn't. I'm sorry you find it to be.

SanJacinto
Apr 24, 2013, 01:58 PM
In fact, Serlet had nothing but compliments for Mac OS X Lion. Such as: "Craig has done a great job managing the Mac OS team for the past two years," Serlet said at the time. "Lion is a great release and the transition should be seamless."


Although Serlet wasn't an Apple employee by that time, he is part of Apple.
It's his "job" to speak in favor about Apple products and employees. That's what I would do. It's a question of character.

cmChimera
Apr 24, 2013, 02:11 PM
Although Serlet wasn't an Apple employee by that time, he is part of Apple.
It's his "job" to speak in favor about Apple products and employees. That's what I would do. It's a question of character.

I don't really care why he said it, the point is that there wasn't some huge conflict with Serlet and iOS integration.

koen
Apr 24, 2013, 02:25 PM
Hope they eventually fix:
- failure for mail client to authenticate yahoo and to keep asking for password,
- failure for wifi backup from my iPh 4s to my new Mac mini (seems not to wake from sleep)

Did you notify them of your problems at http://www.apple.com/feedback/ ?

iBug2
Apr 24, 2013, 02:29 PM
"Yawn" and "baseless" replies with little to no sources to support such as opposed to the sources I referenced to support my claims comes across as disrespectful and pointless. I did not disrespect your comments and opinions with similar remarks, instead I respected and acknowledged your comments and responded with respectful and supported claims whereas your responses are personal and lack merit as they are opinion based.

As for Serlet, it's already widely known that many at Cupertino did not agree nor respect Scott Forstall's influence. Cue and Mansfield being the most vocal, and Serlet's departure was in part due to his frustrations with Forstall's influence over OS X development. If you need sources, Google is a good place to start. Scott Forstall's firing alongside S.V.P. of Retail John Browett's short lived tenure (April-Oct 2012) was a long time in coming and one reason why Bob Mansfield decided on delaying his retirement that was announced earlier in 2012. In fact, MacRumors covered this last November:

Bob Mansfield's Return to Apple Reportedly Influenced by Scott Forstall's Departure
(http://www.macrumors.com/2012/11/01/bob-mansfields-return-to-apple-reportedly-influenced-by-scott-forstalls-departure/)

There's a source to back that claim right off this site :)


Lastly, as I have not respond disrespectfully, it is not unreasonable to expect a mature and cordial response. As such, unless you wish to continue this respectfully or in PM's, nothing more needs to be addressed, especially at the expense of members who wish to engage in informative and cordial exchanges. Otherwise, it seems juvenile. :)

Those are not really sources. This site is called macrumors, not macnews. We have no idea why exactly Forstall was fired. We have speculations.

bedifferent
Apr 24, 2013, 02:50 PM
I don't really care why he said it, the point is that there wasn't some huge conflict with Serlet and iOS integration.

Do you have any proof there wasn't? Double edged sword ;)


It's not disrespectful for me to call out a baseless claim for being baseless. It simply isn't. I'm sorry you find it to be.

It's your tone, reread your comment #33. Terse replies such as "Yawn" and "Baseless" and "Yeah, seems legit" have an intended sarcastic tone, something I have noticed is characteristic of your comments.

Nothing more needs to be stated, don't wish to hijack this thread. Let's agree to disagree and move on civilly.



I think you maybe have some insight we don't have. I am eager to learn more about this but I know that this forum is not the quite place to share information like that.

Sometimes I wish Serlet will return to Apple and become a dream team together with Ive.

Thanks for your posts.

I agree, I wish Serlet would return. As it stands, he is on the board for Parallels, Inc. He stated he needed a change, about it, however my friends Jackee in FCPX design team and a few others I know in Cupertino and Pixar have more than claimed Serlet's departure was in part, not totally, due to Forstall's attitude and control over OS X development with iOS. As someone pointed out, many at Apple had issues with Forstall, certainly Serlet who headed OS X development that was being directed towards Forstall's iOS department played a key in Serlet's departure. Serlet had been with Apple and NeXT for quite a long time, and was wholly responsible for 10.4 Tiger, 10.5 Leopard and 10.6 Snow Leopard. As is known, Leopard was delayed as iOS shifted OS X engineers to iOS development, something I can assure you Serlet was disgruntled by. Is it baseless? That's for some to decide. However, given the general animosity toward Forstall by many, it isn't a huge leap in logic to realize that OS X development became intrinsically tied to iOS development and suffered due to it as far back as 10.5. Knowing what I personally know, Serlet was unable to express such as part of his departure with Apple, so of course mainstream knowledge of such is limited at best. This seems a moot point to argue with some, so I'll leave that as it is :).


Yes, I noticed that too. It seems to be some sort of general "step-by-step" network connectivity troubleshooting/setup tool.

interesting update, the Wireless Diagnostic utility returned with this:

cmChimera
Apr 24, 2013, 03:02 PM
Do you have any proof there wasn't?
“I’ve worked with Steve for 22 years and have had an incredible time developing products at both NeXT and Apple, but at this point, I want to focus less on products and more on science,” said Bertrand Serlet, Apple’s senior vice president of Software Engineering.

He stated why he left.


It's your tone, reread your comment #33. Terse replies such as "Yawn" and "Baseless" and "Yeah, seems legit" have an intended sarcastic tone, something I have noticed is characteristic of your comments.

Nothing more needs to be stated, don't wish to hijack this thread. Let's agree to disagree and move on civilly. Yeah. I'm sarcastic. Most people can handle sarcasm better I suppose. We can move on though.

bedifferent
Apr 24, 2013, 03:11 PM
“I’ve worked with Steve for 22 years and have had an incredible time developing products at both NeXT and Apple, but at this point, I want to focus less on products and more on science,” said Bertrand Serlet, Apple’s senior vice president of Software Engineering.

He stated why he left.


Yeah. I'm sarcastic. Most people can handle sarcasm better I suppose. We can move on though.

I agree, I wish Serlet would return. As it stands, he is on the board for Parallels, Inc. He stated he needed a change, about it, however my friends Jackee in FCPX design team and a few others I know in Cupertino and Pixar have more than claimed Serlet's departure was in part, not totally, due to Forstall's attitude and control over OS X development with iOS. As someone pointed out, many at Apple had issues with Forstall, certainly Serlet who headed OS X development that was being directed towards Forstall's iOS department played a key in Serlet's departure. Serlet had been with Apple and NeXT for quite a long time, and was wholly responsible for 10.4 Tiger, 10.5 Leopard and 10.6 Snow Leopard. As is known, Leopard was delayed as iOS shifted OS X engineers to iOS development, something I can assure you Serlet was disgruntled by. Is it baseless? That's for some to decide. However, given the general animosity toward Forstall by many, it isn't a huge leap in logic to realize that OS X development became intrinsically tied to iOS development and suffered due to it as far back as 10.5. Knowing what I personally know, Serlet was unable to express such as part of his departure with Apple, so of course mainstream knowledge of such is limited at best. This seems a moot point to argue with some, so I'll leave that as it is :).




interesting update, the Wireless Diagnostic utility returned with this:[/QUOTE]

Thank you, I appreciate the kind response and I suppose I do have a thin skin. I'm 36 and I tend to get down when I see people argue online and taking it to a personal level, so I suppose that's where it comes from. Apologies :)

I agree with everything you wrote and you have excellent points. :)

noiseordinance
Apr 24, 2013, 06:13 PM
Did you notify them of your problems at http://www.apple.com/feedback/ ?

You really think Apple pays attention to user feedback? I've spent a significant amount of time on 4 different Macbooks (on 10.8.1 - 10.8.3 moreover) that reset the desktop background every time a reboot occurs... I reckon if Apple hasn't figured out how to simply make the desktop load correctly on bootup, they are miles away from helping users with more advanced issues.

sprawl2
Apr 24, 2013, 07:06 PM
What is the version of the nvidia driver?

The driver version is 8.12.45 310.40.00.05f01. Not sure if that's changed or not.

katewes
Apr 24, 2013, 11:22 PM
Did you notify them of your problems at http://www.apple.com/feedback/ ?

Apple does not listen to feedback.

If you think that submitting user-feedback will change Apple, you must be naive or a recent Apple user.

e.g. Apple refusal for 5+ years to offer matte, anti-glare screens to professionals on iMacs and Cinema Displays.

For Apple to listen, you need to demonstrate that:

-- it will cause their core consumer (dumbed-down) market will allow Apple to make more money, or

-- that refusal to respond will result in media-wide humilitation (e.g. iPhone 4 antena-gate).

Other than that, Apple has their own vision of what to do, and don't care what consumers think as long as the money is rolling in.

If the overall product is great and making money -- but one feature irks customers, but not enough for them to vote with their feet -- Apple will NOT listen.

For Apple to listen, the feature has to be so bad to cause customers to vote with their feet.

JohnDoe98
Apr 25, 2013, 12:44 AM
Apple does not listen to feedback.

If you think that submitting user-feedback will change Apple, you must be naive or a recent Apple user.

e.g. Apple refusal for 5+ years to offer matte, anti-glare screens to professionals on iMacs and Cinema Displays.

For Apple to listen, you need to demonstrate that:

-- it will cause their core consumer (dumbed-down) market will allow Apple to make more money, or

-- that refusal to respond will result in media-wide humilitation (e.g. iPhone 4 antena-gate).

Other than that, Apple has their own vision of what to do, and don't care what consumers think as long as the money is rolling in.

If the overall product is great and making money -- but one feature irks customers, but not enough for them to vote with their feet -- Apple will NOT listen.

For Apple to listen, the feature has to be so bad to cause customers to vote with their feet.

I disagree. I think they will ignore feedback if it violates their vision of how to move forward, like your example with the Matte screens. But there are cases where Apple reversed itself due to high customer demand, and even said as much in their Keynotes. They tried to abolish save as, as just one example in Lion, but it was brought back in Mountain Lion, likely due to a large amount of complaints. For them to take our feedback seriously I just think there has to be a ton of complaints/requests for a feature, otherwise they just ignore it and think they know best.

Nomax2000
Apr 25, 2013, 01:46 AM
The driver version is 8.12.45 310.40.00.05f01. Not sure if that's changed or not.

Thank you. There are minor changes, last Build was 8.12.43 310.40.00.05b03

MrNomNoms
Apr 25, 2013, 01:50 AM
As well, those "complaints" of iOS and social media integration have merit as they have been focusing much of their software engineering on those features with less focus on OpenGL and improved graphics support (these beta's address such but as a developer there has been little momentum in advancements).

The 'social integration' has as much to do with their future as developing OpenGL except that OpenGL is already mature and social integration is a relatively new feature added to the operating system. Once mature I'm sure they'll move the engineers around to re-focus on other things. End of the day regardless of how large your organisation is, you have priorities not simply based on what end users want but the direction other divisions are going in - it isn't just about responding to demands but filling in features that are emerging so that you're ahead of the curb when it takes off. For me I have no interest in integration with Facebook but I'm sure there are people out there who are happy that it is there and is a tick list of features that compel them to go with Apple's products. I mean, there is exchange integration with Mail but how many would actually use such a feature? I use it to access my Office365 custom domain hosting exchange server but for most people it isn't of any interest yet I'm happy that Apple did spend the resources to provide such integration in the first place.

As for OpenGL improvements - end of the day the push for further development has as much to do with demand from developers as it is to do with a willingness by Apple to deliver - if developers are saying, "hey, we're pretty happy with what we've got right now" or "the feature set is great but more optimisation is required" then you'll see resources allocated appropriately.

Pro-Apps such as Aperture and Final Cut Pro X even have Facebook integration.

Integration with Facebook doesn't take away from the fact that there are pro's using such applications - it is about having a product that isn't just for pro's but also up and coming pro's without having to deal with the usual stripped down garbage ala Elements being peddled by Apple. IMHO the biggest two mistakes Apple did was them to stop selling FCP7 and not having a road map to give some sort of heads up to the professionals if or when some features were to return - communication isn't exactly Apple's greatest strength.

Many threads with professional photographers address the frustrations regarding Apple's lack of pro-apps aside from social media integration which most do not use as it leads to little business aside from people "liking" their page and asking for free head-shots or work. This has been a contention with those of us who have used pro-apps for years for work. Adobe has picked up in the pro department, their latest Lightroom release is winning praise from photographers as many are leaving Aperture due to Apple's neglect for Adobe CS6. A few years ago this would have been laughed at as Apple was doing well.

And Adobe is any better? Please, each company has its bad points and the question is whether those bad points over lap with what you want to do and thus whether you're affected by it. End of the day though work flows are changing and the question is whether it is worth the resources and time spent developing a product in a given direction for a mod of work that'll be out of date by the time the said enhancements is released.

Those who claim the pro-market is "niche" are now eating those words as Apple stock is tumbling and a large amount of the pro-market has switched to other platforms and pro-apps.

What has the stock price got to do with the pro-market? are you one of these people who try to make one to one relationships between an event and thinking there is a singular cause?

While not a large market as the consumer market, the consumer market has become over saturated, and growth (outside of China which has proven difficult for Apple to tap into) is flatlining.

And the high personal debt combined with a stagnant economy has no impact upon peoples purchasing? if you hadn't realised but at least in my country I'm noticing that people are alot tighter with their money in recent years as the focus has been to reduce personal debt. The high educed by cheap credit has worn off and now people have come back down to earth - people are no longer buying new gadgets as frequently and the obstacles outside of the United States in emerging markets such as India and China have more to do with the regulatory requirement (check Brazil for such protectionism) than their products failing because they're 'not good enough'.

The pro-market has bank, a lot of, and much of that goes into updating hardware and software licenses. Doing the math, that "niche" market is still a large percentage profit wise when studios and businesses have tens if not hundreds of thousands to spend on upgrades. That isn't chump change.

If the argument that Apple needs to diversify then I agree - I've been saying for years that Apple should buy out Adobe and push its middleware off into a separate company along with Filemaker and maybe have a separate division specifically for delivering high end Mac Pro's etc.

HFS+ is long in the tooth, especially as large volumes and servers are becoming commonplace in the average home (shame ZFS licensing fell to the wayside as Apple did explore ZFS in Leopard beta's, which would have improved OS X use of large volumes such as Time Machine and media storage).

That has been addressed many times - and I've addressed it myself. Firstly use ZFS with Solaris in a desktop environment then comeback and say you want ZFS. Secondly there is the matter of licensing - if Sun doesn't want to licence it then there isn't much Apple can do. As for the file system - there is Core Storage and Apple is doing the same thing as Microsoft is doing with ReFS where the guts will be sitting inside Core Storage and HFS+ will merely be a compatibility layer sitting on top that is transparent to applications.

My parents even have a Synology DS212j with a Mac Mini as their HTPC. Linux based, which means OS X has to use SMB or AFP to access media outside of Synology's Assistant app. 10.7 had the worst revamp in network protocols, much of which was remedied with 10.8 but still needs some improvements. A good deal would be facilitated by quicker adoption of wireless ac. Apple was ahead of the game when they adopted Wireless-N years ago before many big players, what is keeping them from being ahead of the curve in wireless ac hardware and supporting kexts? This is a deviation from OS X advancements that made OS X a better OS.

So apparently it is Apple's fault that Synology DS212j is bundling a copy of netatalk which is almost a year and a half old? colour me confused as to why Apple should be blamed for Synology's laziness.

I'm not disagreeing with you in the least, you have some very valid points that I absolutely recognize. Social media, whether fad or not, is a big market and Apple is wise in integrating such into their main products. However, much of Forstall's influence in Apple was strong arming OS X engineers into further iOS integration at the cost of a more stable and advanced OS X. Recall that Leopard was delayed (http://appleinsider.com/articles/07/04/12/apple_delays_leopard_release_until_october) a few times as iOS development pulled OS X engineers away. Apple is notorious for hiring cross platform engineers and keeping a small team as Jobs wanted to know everyone on the teams and keep a tight hold on those engineers. This was one of many factors that lead to Serlet leaving and Federighi taking over OS X software engineering with 10.7. 10.6 Snow Leopard was (arguably) one of the most polished OS X releases to date. Serlet became increasingly frustrated with engineer focus on iOS and Forstall's influence over Jobs. Serlet had little to do with 10.7 Lion, that was Federighi's baby. We all know how that went.

I know first hand this has been happening with OS X. It is a shame as past OS X updates were generally ahead of the curve, that has absolutely changed since 10.7.

Or you could be looking too deep into it and Serlet left because he wanted to change. I've left work places and assumptions were made about why I left - none of them were even remotely correct in nature and yet they persist because someone gets an idea stuck in their mind that doesn't come close to reality. There is a gradual merging of the lower layers of iOS for example AF Foundation started of in iOS and it is now in OS X and being expanded with developers being told not to write new code on the Quicktime Framework (in other words it is there for legacy backwards compatibility reasons and nothing more), OpenGL ES, Game Kit etc. IMHO it is iOS that is catching up to OS X rather than OS X being ignored - people are wanting more features found in OS X to also be in iOS whilst at the same time Apple is trying to harmonise the frameworks so developers can aim for both platforms without too much trickery required. End of the day though we'll find out in WWDC how things are working but there are a lot of things occurring behind the scenes that we aren't privy too which is part of the problem - when there is a void of information then the obvious thing occurs where people try to fill that void with some sort of meaningful explanation of what is happening.

The driver version is 8.12.45 310.40.00.05f01. Not sure if that's changed or not.

So we're gone from GeForce 8.10.44 304.10.65f03 (10.8.3) to probably 8.12.45 310.40.00.05f01 (10.8.4) when it is released. Looks like a fairly decent leap at least in terms of version numbers but at least for me on my iMac the experience with the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680MX 2048 MB has been pretty decent so far so I guess the issues that are being raised are those outside of what I use my computer for.

DMH3006
Apr 25, 2013, 09:14 AM
Apple does not listen to feedback.

If you think that submitting user-feedback will change Apple, you must be naive or a recent Apple user.

e.g. Apple refusal for 5+ years to offer matte, anti-glare screens to professionals on iMacs and Cinema Displays.

For Apple to listen, you need to demonstrate that:

-- it will cause their core consumer (dumbed-down) market will allow Apple to make more money, or

-- that refusal to respond will result in media-wide humilitation (e.g. iPhone 4 antena-gate).

Other than that, Apple has their own vision of what to do, and don't care what consumers think as long as the money is rolling in.

If the overall product is great and making money -- but one feature irks customers, but not enough for them to vote with their feet -- Apple will NOT listen.

For Apple to listen, the feature has to be so bad to cause customers to vote with their feet.

Seriously? Like you said if there was enough demand for those screens they would make them,why change the production line for a small part of the buyers that will still buy it anyway? It would be bad business.

The new iMac has a low enough glare to get you through:rolleyes:

bedifferent
Apr 25, 2013, 09:14 AM
snip

Ok, you win. I cry uncle. ;)

milo
Apr 25, 2013, 09:22 AM
If you think that submitting user-feedback will change Apple, you must be naive or a recent Apple user.

Reporting a bug and requesting that the change the hardware they're selling are two entirely different things.

Definitely report bugs, they want to know and those go into the queue. Although the bugs reported through the seeds probably get higher priority.

Valkyre
Apr 25, 2013, 09:40 AM
does everybody notice an improvement in safari memory management?

mag01
Apr 25, 2013, 09:42 AM
However for reporting bugs you should use https://bugreport.apple.com/ instead of their feedback page. If you report a bug via their feedback page then real chances for that bug to be fixed are close to zero. And you also lose any bug tracking possibility.

saturnotaku
Apr 25, 2013, 01:51 PM
So we're gone from GeForce 8.10.44 304.10.65f03 (10.8.3) to probably 8.12.45 310.40.00.05f01 (10.8.4) when it is released. Looks like a fairly decent leap at least in terms of version numbers but at least for me on my iMac the experience with the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680MX 2048 MB has been pretty decent so far so I guess the issues that are being raised are those outside of what I use my computer for.

Is there a similar leap in version numbers for AMD cards or is that something you're unable to check since yours is NVIDIA?

j-a-x
Apr 25, 2013, 05:05 PM
If you're a dev, wouldn't it be worth it to test your software with every beta?

Probably, but I'm a poor enough dev to only have one Mac so I don't want to test it until towards the end of the beta program if it's unstable. My app is simple enough that an OS upgrade probably wouldn't break it and if so it wouldn't be that hard to fix.

koen
Apr 26, 2013, 05:49 AM
If you think that submitting user-feedback will change Apple, you must be naive or a recent Apple user.

I'm impressed that you know who I am from just one sentence.

Apple definitely requests user feedback regarding bugs, etc. If nobody reports them, they don't exist as far as Apple is concerned and they will never be fixed. Complaining on a public forum about things that don't work is not going to help much with that.

mentaluproar
Apr 27, 2013, 01:08 AM
Hope they eventually fix:
- failure for mail client to authenticate yahoo and to keep asking for password,
- failure for wifi backup from my iPh 4s to my new Mac mini (seems not to wake from sleep)

OMG yes! The yahoo issue is so annoying and wifi sync has always been so troublesome that I gave up hope of apple ever fixing it.

----------

Probably, but I'm a poor enough dev to only have one Mac so I don't want to test it until towards the end of the beta program if it's unstable. My app is simple enough that an OS upgrade probably wouldn't break it and if so it wouldn't be that hard to fix.

virtualbox. done.

califguy
Apr 27, 2013, 03:32 AM
Look under the Menu items ( Window->Utilities). It actually has much better options now including scan and info. etc.

Anyone noticed that they've replaced the "Wi-Fi Diagnostics" app (/System/Library/CoreServices/Wi-Fi\ Diagnostics.app/) with "Wireless Diagnostics" (/System/Library/CoreServices/Wireless\ Diagnostics.app/)?
This new one seems to lack the "Network Utilities" functionality where especially the Wi-Fi Scan (http://osxdaily.com/2012/07/31/wi-fi-scanner-mac-os-x-mountain-lion/) tool was pretty useful.

Update: It actually changed in the first beta 12E27.

mag01
Apr 27, 2013, 06:16 AM
Look under the Menu items ( Window->Utilities). It actually has much better options now including scan and info. etc.Ooh yes! Great that it's still there...

EDIT: build 12E40 out, another round of "discover some interesting changes" is here... :-D