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onthecouchagain
Apr 30, 2013, 09:17 PM
I was afraid of this: http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/29/details-on-jony-ives-very-very-flat-design-for-ios-7/

"While the look of the updated system may be surprising to some, iOS 7 is reportedly not more difficult to use than earlier versions of software platform. There is apparently no new learning curve in the same way there was no learning curve when the iPods went color. While iOS 7 does look different, its core apps and system fundamentals (like the Lock and Home screens) mostly operate in a similar fashion to how they do today."

If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.

What's worse is people will probably be blown away by the new look. Mix that in with Apple's "imaginative" (to put it politely) marketing, I wouldn't be surprised if people devour it up as the next big thing in iOS. I mean, it can be beautiful, but I fear it'll be another sleight of hand, magic trick, another veil pulled over people's eyes.

Or, it could be Android's (and I guess WP8 and BB10, too) moment to really distance itself. If iOS 7 won't give people the things they want, and will still be on a 4" screen, will more people migrate? They should. Or else Apple may never change the way we want and at the speed we want.

Or will new cheers of "iOS 8 will bring those big changes!" (it might) be born?

Disappointing news.



NT1440
Apr 30, 2013, 09:29 PM
Uh, you can change the look while still adding the 1000+ new APIs for new features, like every wwdc since iOS came out.

Do you really think the people that were lucky enough to get a sneak peak of the UI were also given a rundown of new features too? Come on.:rolleyes:

Truts, iOS 7 will have quite a few new features.

Dr McKay
Apr 30, 2013, 09:29 PM
Of course people will say "iOS 8 will be different". People will argue that Jony couldnt implement sweeping changes in a single iOS revision or risk alienating customers.

onthecouchagain
Apr 30, 2013, 09:33 PM
Uh, you can change the look while still adding the 1000+ new APIs for new features, like every wwdc since iOS came out.

Do you really think the people that were lucky enough to get a sneak peak of the UI were also given a rundown of new features too? Come on.:rolleyes:

Truts, iOS 7 will have quite a few new features.

At no point does the article or I say iOS 7 will have no new features.

NT1440
Apr 30, 2013, 09:40 PM
At no point does the article or I say iOS 7 will have no new features.

Your OP and title makes it seem like the only thing you expect to be new in iOS 7 is the UI.

Trius
Apr 30, 2013, 10:25 PM
At no point does the article or I say iOS 7 will have no new features....

...I mean, it can be beautiful, but I fear it'll be another sleight of hand, magic trick, another veil pulled over people's eyes.


What exactly are you implying then??

b166er
Apr 30, 2013, 10:26 PM
I said this when iOS 5 was released, and I'll say it again- iOS 7 is their big chance. I figured iOS 6 was still going to have Steve Jobs all over it, and it does. iOS 7 is their opportunity to please the die hard fans as well as the people who desire a little more.

It's obvious that Apple is starting to really look at the markets. The iPad got smaller, the iPhone got a little bigger... they are starting to pay attention a little more now that they're not the only name in nice touch screen phones and tablets.

I am eager to see iOS 7, if it even adds a few certain things I'd likely grab a new iPhone. If not, well, I've already been away from the iPhone for a while now so it's no huge loss.

Kashsystems
Apr 30, 2013, 10:41 PM
To tell you the truth, I think the most important change Apple can change is screen size and offer a 4.8 inch or greater phone.

I think the majority does not care about customization or freedom, they just care about how well they can see the screen and if the phone can text,call, and facebook good enough.

After owning the S4 for a few days, I love many features that Android has over ios but the number 1 selling point to me is still that 1080p 5 inch screen.

Meaning I would have lived with my IOS frustrations if the S4 or HTC one a 4inch screen.

To use that old favorite saying

"Size does matter"

Beeplance
Apr 30, 2013, 10:53 PM
Not sure what the rumored new "flat-look" interface will look, but guess we'll just wait until June to find out.

That said, I do believe iOS 7 will bring its fair share to features. There will always be a "iOS 7 brings more more than 200 new features....", then followed by a "will really like to show you all of them, but there's not enough time, so we've compiled a top-ten" features thingy that they'll run through during the keynote.

Typical Apple keynote way-of-things, I doubt this time will be any different from history.

LIVEFRMNYC
Apr 30, 2013, 11:23 PM
If it's anything as flat as these, I'll be speechless.

http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/flat-design.jpg

http://iphone-developers.com/images/uploads/ios-icons-flat_1x.png

Fernandez21
Apr 30, 2013, 11:31 PM
I don't get what big features iOS is behind on android. Don't get me wrong, I really like android, especially how well it runs on the one, but iOS never frustrated me one bit, while android frustrates me as I try to find apps that work as well as they do on iOS.

Android does feel a bit more modern at the moment though.

ChazUK
May 1, 2013, 12:11 AM
What I want to know is, how much will be held back from my ageing iPhone 4?:(

I need to get a newer iPhone methinks.

tjl3
May 1, 2013, 12:34 AM
To tell you the truth, I think the most important change Apple can change is screen size and offer a 4.8 inch or greater phone.

I think the majority does not care about customization or freedom, they just care about how well they can see the screen and if the phone can text,call, and facebook good enough.

After owning the S4 for a few days, I love many features that Android has over ios but the number 1 selling point to me is still that 1080p 5 inch screen.

Meaning I would have lived with my IOS frustrations if the S4 or HTC one a 4inch screen.

To use that old favorite saying

"Size does matter"

Software is equally important as they won't put software engineers on hardware projects nor just lay off their software division. And screens aren't the primary sales pitch for most. If we are talking about the majority of consumers, its price. Not only that, the brand sells, and likely iOS is another factor that people continue to buy iPhone. We know this b/c iPhone continues to be the top selling brand of smartphone.

Now that doesn't mean that screen size isn't important, b/c it obviously is to you and many others. But for all the people they lose to Android OS for screen size, they gain for various other reasons.

Beeplance
May 1, 2013, 12:45 AM
If it's anything as flat as these, I'll be speechless.

Image (http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/flat-design.jpg)

Image (http://iphone-developers.com/images/uploads/ios-icons-flat_1x.png)

I'll be speechless as well. They don't look very nice at all, looks more like a step back than a step forward... -.-

Trying desperately to conjure up all kinds of concepts for "flat-look" inside my head right now... :cool:

watchthisspace
May 1, 2013, 02:22 AM
I'll be speechless as well. They don't look very nice at all, looks more like a step back than a step forward... -.-

Trying desperately to conjure up all kinds of concepts for "flat-look" inside my head right now... :cool:

They appear to be heavily influenced by Microsoft's Modern UI. Which does not suit iOS at all.

AQUADock
May 1, 2013, 02:56 AM
They appear to be heavily influenced by Microsoft's Modern UI. Which does not suit iOS at all.

Why does everyone think that flat = MS Metro? Im pretty sure that the rest of the OS will be like the current App Store and Music apps.

----------

If iOS 7 won't give people the things they want, and will still be on a 4" screen, will more people migrate? They should. Or else Apple may never change the way we want and at the speed we want.


What, who's we? If people who buy the iPhone and are happy with it they should buy another to supposedly make apple change things up, thats ridiculous.

paulsalter
May 1, 2013, 03:18 AM
Why does everyone think that flat = MS Metro? Im pretty sure that the rest of the OS will be like the current App Store and Music apps.[COLOR="#808080"]



For me I hope this isn't the case, I think the current music app is very ugly

I would like to see Apple & Google have change of how apps look, these new very white style apps are horrible

watchthisspace
May 1, 2013, 03:22 AM
Why does everyone think that flat = MS Metro? Im pretty sure that the rest of the OS will be like the current App Store and Music apps.

----------



What who's we? If people who buy the iPhone and are happy with it they should buy another to supposedly make apple change things up, thats ridiculous.

At this point in time, Microsoft's Modern UI is probably what a lot of people first think when someone mentions 'flat.' It's also a mock up since no one really knows what the revamped 'flat' UI will bring.

I opened up the App store and Music app and my thoughts of the flattened UI with iOS 7 will be like or similar to this and I do agree with you here. And this is the sort of style, I'd much like the Modern UI to have gone for, with square icons and using plain colour to denote notifications/the live tile updates.

JustJeff
May 1, 2013, 04:07 AM
I was afraid of this: http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/29/details-on-jony-ives-very-very-flat-design-for-ios-7/

"While the look of the updated system may be surprising to some, iOS 7 is reportedly not more difficult to use than earlier versions of software platform. There is apparently no new learning curve in the same way there was no learning curve when the iPods went color. While iOS 7 does look different, its core apps and system fundamentals (like the Lock and Home screens) mostly operate in a similar fashion to how they do today."

If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.

What's worse is people will probably be blown away by the new look. Mix that in with Apple's "imaginative" (to put it politely) marketing, I wouldn't be surprised if people devour it up as the next big thing in iOS. I mean, it can be beautiful, but I fear it'll be another sleight of hand, magic trick, another veil pulled over people's eyes.

Or, it could be Android's (and I guess WP8 and BB10, too) moment to really distance itself. If iOS 7 won't give people the things they want, and will still be on a 4" screen, will more people migrate? They should. Or else Apple may never change the way we want and at the speed we want.

Or will new cheers of "iOS 8 will bring those big changes!" (it might) be born?

Disappointing news.

Wow what a load of drivel and your bias shines through spectacularly. So just because someone likes iOS you have the "veil pulled over your eyes"? Please.

It's all down to personal preference just because your happier with Android doesn't mean iphone users are using an inferior device.

There's nothing that Apple can do at this stage that will please you so just give it up and continue going through Android devices nitpicking at the smallest thing.

Tsuchiya
May 1, 2013, 04:12 AM
If it's anything as flat as these, I'll be speechless.

Image (http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/flat-design.jpg)

Image (http://iphone-developers.com/images/uploads/ios-icons-flat_1x.png)

I think they'll do more than just refresh the icons :p

iOS is very functional, and fundamentally it's a rock solid OS. A few tweaks and a UI refresh will be enough to keep it current (IMHO).

stevensr123
May 1, 2013, 04:49 AM
The problem I had with iOS is that it's simply an app draw basically, you have a few decent apps/features that provide a bit of functionality, otherwise your simply just opening and closing apps.

With android they just have so many functionalities, and because of the way android is, you download apps to have added on functionality as well. To the point were you don't even needs apps to do most things.


For instance I downloaded yesterday an app called notification toggle, which has added toggles I can basically customise, on my notifications slider bar. So now when I swip down my notification bar I have toggles for wifi, Bluetooth, brightness etc its awesome.

Then I have blink feed, I haven't even installed flip board now, I simply have blinkfeed which displays all the content I enjoy, on my home screen.

Then we have zoe, which just destroys the iPhones photo/camera app.

Not only that but the majority of great developers have now basically supported android and made nice , clean looking apps that basically look and act the same now on android mobiles as they do on iOS phones, infact some apps have greater capabilities.


Android is just becoming a more powerful, but an actual cleaner and less complicated os, at the same time as adding more features.

This htc sense 5 I have found to be just as easy as iOS is.

Krimsonmyst
May 1, 2013, 05:01 AM
Wow what a load of drivel and your bias shines through spectacularly. So just because someone likes iOS you have the "veil pulled over your eyes"? Please.

It's all down to personal preference just because your happier with Android doesn't mean iphone users are using an inferior device.

There's nothing that Apple can do at this stage that will please you so just give it up and continue going through Android devices nitpicking at the smallest thing.

Your bias is showing through just as much as you claim couch's to be.

The point he was making is simple - and true. All Apple needs to do is release a visual overhaul of iOS and, through their clever marketing, will have millions of people drooling over it, when all they'd have done is really just release an iOS update that is the equivalent of a visual theme.

People will be saying it's faster, easier to use, more intuitive and smoother just because Apple will market it that way.

akuma13
May 1, 2013, 05:17 AM
I personally believe we won't be getting a proper (and much needed) system overhaul until iphone 6. There is no reason to (no different size iphones, ipods etc). It will be next year.

mattopotamus
May 1, 2013, 06:05 AM
If it's anything as flat as these, I'll be speechless.

Image (http://www.neowin.net/images/uploaded/flat-design.jpg)

Image (http://iphone-developers.com/images/uploads/ios-icons-flat_1x.png)

I'll be speechless as well. They don't look very nice at all, looks more like a step back than a step forward... -.-

Trying desperately to conjure up all kinds of concepts for "flat-look" inside my head right now... :cool:

really? I think it looks pretty damn good haha. I am a huge fan of flat designs. It makes my eyes happy :P

tbayrgs
May 1, 2013, 06:44 AM
To tell you the truth, I think the most important change Apple can change is screen size and offer a 4.8 inch or greater phone.

I think the majority does not care about customization or freedom, they just care about how well they can see the screen and if the phone can text,call, and facebook good enough.

After owning the S4 for a few days, I love many features that Android has over ios but the number 1 selling point to me is still that 1080p 5 inch screen.

Meaning I would have lived with my IOS frustrations if the S4 or HTC one a 4inch screen.

To use that old favorite saying

"Size does matter"

I think this assessment is spot on. The vast majority of smartphone users do nothing beyond the core apps (phone, text, email, some apps) and the numerous 'freedoms' provided by Android are completely lost on them and thus, the iPhone is more than adequate for their needs. I've certainly heard some iPhone users express their desire for a larger screen, can't recall ever hearing 'man, I wish it was easier to attach this PDF to an email' or 'wow, turning off my wifi takes so many steps'.

From the perspective of the types of users hanging out in this forum, Couch's opinion is likely shared by many (myself being one) but the flaw in so many of these threads is feeling they apply to the general consumer. We are a small niche of the smartphone market and while we will be dissappointed with a lack of progress in iOS, it is more than capable of meeting most people's needs. Apple isn't selling millions of iPhones on accident.

JustJeff
May 1, 2013, 06:55 AM
Your bias is showing through just as much as you claim couch's to be.

The point he was making is simple - and true. All Apple needs to do is release a visual overhaul of iOS and, through their clever marketing, will have millions of people drooling over it, when all they'd have done is really just release an iOS update that is the equivalent of a visual theme.

People will be saying it's faster, easier to use, more intuitive and smoother just because Apple will market it that way.

Ahh I enjoy and use both iOS and Android devices and am well aware of both their strengths and weaknesses. So just because I call him out on speaking rubbish I'm biased?

What annoys me is when people claim that there should be a "one size fits all" solution for everyone. His post screams "I want this so should everyone" and "if you use iOS your stupid" he clearly is never going to be happy with iOS ever again. He dramatically described his recent iphone journey as a nightmare :rolleyes:

People just need to accept that they have different preferences. Yes iOS is getting stale and has some major shortcomings in some areas, I was never claiming it didn't. The settings area is a mess and needs the biggest overhaul IMO. But some people do still like using iOS and don't have "the veil over their eyes" as couch claims.

jamezr
May 1, 2013, 07:33 AM
At no point does the article or I say iOS 7 will have no new features.
Then what are you posting about then? The fear of something that has not even been delivered makes no sense......If it was radically different....then people would be complaining about it being radically different. If it is NOT radically different then people are going to complain it is not different enough.....and so on......and on.....
Let wait to complain about it when it is actually released and you have hands on experience with the software. Right now no one knows unless they work for Apple.

KentuckyHouse
May 1, 2013, 08:04 AM
Ahh I enjoy and use both iOS and Android devices and am well aware of both their strengths and weaknesses. So just because I call him out on speaking rubbish I'm biased?

What annoys me is when people claim that there should be a "one size fits all" solution for everyone. His post screams "I want this so should everyone" and "if you use iOS your stupid" he clearly is never going to be happy with iOS ever again. He dramatically described his recent iphone journey as a nightmare :rolleyes:

People just need to accept that they have different preferences. Yes iOS is getting stale and has some major shortcomings in some areas, I was never claiming it didn't. The settings area is a mess and needs the biggest overhaul IMO. But some people do still like using iOS and don't have "the veil over their eyes" as couch claims.

The thing is, couch isn't saying there should be a "one size fits all" solution. The iPhone IS a "one size fits all" device. Android devices aren't. Because of the enhance capabilities a user has with an Android device (that they aren't required to use, but have a CHOICE to use), it covers a much broader range of needs.

I think this assessment is spot on. The vast majority of smartphone users do nothing beyond the core apps (phone, text, email, some apps) and the numerous 'freedoms' provided by Android are completely lost on them and thus, the iPhone is more than adequate for their needs. I've certainly heard some iPhone users express their desire for a larger screen, can't recall ever hearing 'man, I wish it was easier to attach this PDF to an email' or 'wow, turning off my wifi takes so many steps'.

From the perspective of the types of users hanging out in this forum, Couch's opinion is likely shared by many (myself being one) but the flaw in so many of these threads is feeling they apply to the general consumer. We are a small niche of the smartphone market and while we will be dissappointed with a lack of progress in iOS, it is more than capable of meeting most people's needs. Apple isn't selling millions of iPhones on accident.

Nice post and I agree with just about everything, but you really haven't heard anyone say they wish it was easier to attach a PDF or complain about how you have to dig into the settings to do something as simple as turning off/on wifi? I see that last one around here what seems like every single day. To me the two biggest complaints about the iPhone (and I'm talking about interactions with people in everyday life, not on this forum), are the small screen size and the lack of toggles to quickly do mundane things.

That Apple hasn't figured out that people want toggles in their Notification Center and implemented it just baffles me.

Krimsonmyst
May 1, 2013, 08:10 AM
Ahh I enjoy and use both iOS and Android devices and am well aware of both their strengths and weaknesses. So just because I call him out on speaking rubbish I'm biased?

What annoys me is when people claim that there should be a "one size fits all" solution for everyone. His post screams "I want this so should everyone" and "if you use iOS your stupid" he clearly is never going to be happy with iOS ever again. He dramatically described his recent iphone journey as a nightmare :rolleyes:

People just need to accept that they have different preferences. Yes iOS is getting stale and has some major shortcomings in some areas, I was never claiming it didn't. The settings area is a mess and needs the biggest overhaul IMO. But some people do still like using iOS and don't have "the veil over their eyes" as couch claims.

You realise that Apple is the only one here preaching a 'one size fits all' solution...

onthecouchagain
May 1, 2013, 08:48 AM
Thank you to those who understand the point of my posts.

It's a mistake to think because I'm not a fan of ios at the moment that I don't want it to be better or that I somehow hate apple. An understandable but too often misconception. It's a red herring that distracts from the real problem at hand; ios.

To those who are happy with ios, I guess this thread doesn't apply to you. Why post in here defending against a claim I'm not making?

mattopotamus
May 1, 2013, 09:09 AM
Thank you to those who understand the point of my posts.

It's a mistake to think because I'm not a fan of ios at the moment that I don't want it to be better or that I somehow hate apple. An understandable but too often misconception. It's a red herring that distracts from the real problem at hand; ios.

To those who are happy with ios, I guess this thread doesn't apply to you. Why post in here defending against a claim I'm not making?

The issues with forums is that many people do not know how to have an open discussion, or they read a single post without knowing how a person really feels about a topic.

AQUADock
May 1, 2013, 09:13 AM
The issues with forums is that many people do not know how to have an open discussion, or they read a single post without knowing how a person really feels about a topic.

So everyone has to make a member background check before posting?

jrswizzle
May 1, 2013, 09:19 AM
Your bias is showing through just as much as you claim couch's to be.

The point he was making is simple - and true. All Apple needs to do is release a visual overhaul of iOS and, through their clever marketing, will have millions of people drooling over it, when all they'd have done is really just release an iOS update that is the equivalent of a visual theme.

People will be saying it's faster, easier to use, more intuitive and smoother just because Apple will market it that way.

But that's the thing - you seem to think that the only way a person could come to such a conclusion (that iOS is faster or better) is because they been duped by Apple marketing.

When the real reason is, they simply prefer it. Millions of people won't be "drooling" over it - they are Apple fans and there will be those who like it and those who don't. Many will continue to buy Apple simply because they prefer Apple's way of doing things, there are those who will buy because its easy and their family/friends have one, and there will be those who buy because of the new look.

All valid reasons that don't require some stiff on the internet to diminish said preferences because he/she doesn't agree.

mattopotamus
May 1, 2013, 09:36 AM
So everyone has to make a member background check before posting?

Just that most people overreact. If you are going to jump all over someone for a post, at least read their other post within the same thread. Open discussions seem to turn into personal attacks awfully quick.

Krimsonmyst
May 1, 2013, 09:38 AM
But that's the thing - you seem to think that the only way a person could come to such a conclusion (that iOS is faster or better) is because they been duped by Apple marketing.

When the real reason is, they simply prefer it. Millions of people won't be "drooling" over it - they are Apple fans and there will be those who like it and those who don't. Many will continue to buy Apple simply because they prefer Apple's way of doing things, there are those who will buy because its easy and their family/friends have one, and there will be those who buy because of the new look.

All valid reasons that don't require some stiff on the internet to diminish said preferences because he/she doesn't agree.

Oh come on man. You may have something of a point - but you can't tell me Apple's marketing doesn't have anything to do with people's perception of iDevices.

Remember when you didn't need Bluetooth? Remember when 3.5" was the perfect screen size, and it never needed to be any bigger? Remember when no-one was interested in a 7" tablet market?

As a prediction, remember when Apple said that you didn't need a retina display in an iPad mini because the screen was smaller?

I'm not saying you're flat out wrong, and I'm sure that there are many people that have legitimate reasons for choosing iOS as their OS of choice - but you can't deny that Apple has a long history of telling people that they don't need something, then releasing it down the track and having people fawn over how fantastic (or 'amazing') it is - while the rest of sit, looking puzzled with devices in our hands that have had the feature for a long time.

I never like to play this card because I don't want to look like the guy that is trying to one-up everybody, but I worked as a Specialist for a year, and then a Genius for 2 years at an Apple Store here in Australia - and mainly during my time as a Specialist, there were so many people that didn't exactly know WHY they were buying a Mac/iPhone - other than 'my friend said its what I should buy', and my personal favourite 'because they look cool' - which I suppose is true.

One of the 'behind closed doors' promo videos we used to be shown actually spoke about how important the marketing is in explaining to the customers why Apple products are so amazing.

Something I've held as a philosophy for many years is that while they do sell some pretty great hardware and software across the board - Apple is first and foremost a company that markets, markets damn well mind you - but is a marketing business all the same.

nick9191
May 1, 2013, 09:50 AM
I was afraid of this: http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/29/details-on-jony-ives-very-very-flat-design-for-ios-7/

"While the look of the updated system may be surprising to some, iOS 7 is reportedly not more difficult to use than earlier versions of software platform. There is apparently no new learning curve in the same way there was no learning curve when the iPods went color. While iOS 7 does look different, its core apps and system fundamentals (like the Lock and Home screens) mostly operate in a similar fashion to how they do today."

If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.

What's worse is people will probably be blown away by the new look. Mix that in with Apple's "imaginative" (to put it politely) marketing, I wouldn't be surprised if people devour it up as the next big thing in iOS. I mean, it can be beautiful, but I fear it'll be another sleight of hand, magic trick, another veil pulled over people's eyes.

Or, it could be Android's (and I guess WP8 and BB10, too) moment to really distance itself. If iOS 7 won't give people the things they want, and will still be on a 4" screen, will more people migrate? They should. Or else Apple may never change the way we want and at the speed we want.

Or will new cheers of "iOS 8 will bring those big changes!" (it might) be born?

Disappointing news.

iOS is a blank canvas for apps, the software ecosystem sells the product (amongst other things). As long as it looks pretty, and gets changed around every now and then because people are dickheads and get bored too easily, it will be grand. All it needs is the API's, the basic functionality, the sexy interface, leave the rest to the developers.

tjl3
May 1, 2013, 10:14 AM
Your bias is showing through just as much as you claim couch's to be.

The point he was making is simple - and true. All Apple needs to do is release a visual overhaul of iOS and, through their clever marketing, will have millions of people drooling over it, when all they'd have done is really just release an iOS update that is the equivalent of a visual theme.

People will be saying it's faster, easier to use, more intuitive and smoother just because Apple will market it that way.

But how many people do you also see "I am bored w/ iOS, it is stale, boring, hasn't changed in 6 years, blah, blah, blah." And it won't just be people who are on iOS, it'll be people who have also switched platforms from iOS.

The thing is, couch isn't saying there should be a "one size fits all" solution. The iPhone IS a "one size fits all" device. Android devices aren't. Because of the enhance capabilities a user has with an Android device (that they aren't required to use, but have a CHOICE to use), it covers a much broader range of needs.


In a way, Android devices do convey a 'one size for you' message. There are too many concessions in the smaller screen market on Android. You want a 4.5 in screen, you don't get 1080p, it's slower, GPU is not as powerful, materials are different. And the smartphones that dominate are ones that are lower priced (i.e. people are cheap, surprise!).

And Samsung, b/c they own the profit share for Android will dictate the market, and their competitors have to follow.

I really think that people who moved on from iPhone due solely to screen size is the minority. A lot can cite screen size on forums and blogs, but there are other underlying reasons and no increase of screen size is going to draw ALL those consumers back. That said, it also won't hurt Apple to go bigger b/c there is no competition in the < 4.7" market.

jrswizzle
May 1, 2013, 10:15 AM
Oh come on man. You may have something of a point - but you can't tell me Apple's marketing doesn't have anything to do with people's perception of iDevices.

Remember when you didn't need Bluetooth? Remember when 3.5" was the perfect screen size, and it never needed to be any bigger? Remember when no-one was interested in a 7" tablet market?

As a prediction, remember when Apple said that you didn't need a retina display in an iPad mini because the screen was smaller?

I'm not saying you're flat out wrong, and I'm sure that there are many people that have legitimate reasons for choosing iOS as their OS of choice - but you can't deny that Apple has a long history of telling people that they don't need something, then releasing it down the track and having people fawn over how fantastic (or 'amazing') it is - while the rest of sit, looking puzzled with devices in our hands that have had the feature for a long time.

I never like to play this card because I don't want to look like the guy that is trying to one-up everybody, but I worked as a Specialist for a year, and then a Genius for 2 years at an Apple Store here in Australia - and mainly during my time as a Specialist, there were so many people that didn't exactly know WHY they were buying a Mac/iPhone - other than 'my friend said its what I should buy', and my personal favourite 'because they look cool' - which I suppose is true.

One of the 'behind closed doors' promo videos we used to be shown actually spoke about how important the marketing is in explaining to the customers why Apple products are so amazing.

Something I've held as a philosophy for many years is that while they do sell some pretty great hardware and software across the board - Apple is first and foremost a company that markets, markets damn well mind you - but is a marketing business all the same.

I'm not saying there aren't SOME who fall prey to marketing hype, but lets not pretend Apple is the only company who makes wild marketing claims.....I seem to recall a Samsung GS4 ad saying that it would actually help your dating life and relationships.....I mean really?

Of course Apple will say their product is the best, of course they will try to dissuade naysayers by making statements like "You don't need retina in the mini because its smaller" (which I've never heard by the way - there a lots of people out there who can't tell the difference - my wife is one of them).

My only point was, don't belittle the preferences of the majority just because Apple goes over the top with its marketing. I was chatting with my mom yesterday and getting my old iPhone 4S from her to sell - she just got the 5. She actually PREFERRED the 4S - not because Apple told her 3.5" was the perfect size, but because that's what she was used to and liked.

Now I fully expect that she'll get used to the 5 (she's only had it for about a month and a half), but there are plenty of people out there who feel that same way - not because Apple said so, but because it legitimately is the truth for them.

I, personally, tend to discredit ANYTHING ANY OEM says about its own products.....because of course, it will be nothing but praise.

KentuckyHouse
May 1, 2013, 10:18 AM
So everyone has to make a member background check before posting?

Yes, just like Obama is going to walk into your living room and take your guns. :rolleyes:

Why is it people always jump to the most extreme position when something seems to bother them?

AQUADock
May 1, 2013, 10:26 AM
Yes, just like Obama is going to walk into your living room and take your guns. :rolleyes:

Why is it people always jump to the most extreme position when something seems to bother them?

Im not sure what you meant but my point was that this is a bit silly to have to consider what you are going to say according to the person who opened the thread.

KentuckyHouse
May 1, 2013, 10:30 AM
In a way, Android devices do convey a 'one size for you' message. There are too many concessions in the smaller screen market on Android. You want a 4.5 in screen, you don't get 1080p, it's slower, GPU is not as powerful, materials are different. And the smartphones that dominate are ones that are lower priced (i.e. people are cheap, surprise!).

And Samsung, b/c they own the profit share for Android will dictate the market, and their competitors have to follow.

I really think that people who moved on from iPhone due solely to screen size is the minority. A lot can cite screen size on forums and blogs, but there are other underlying reasons and no increase of screen size is going to draw ALL those consumers back. That said, it also won't hurt Apple to go bigger b/c there is no competition in the < 4.7" market.

I see what you're saying about concessions, and in the past this would've been true, but if you look around now you'll find that you're not making a lot of concessions.

Want a smaller screen? Go with the HTC One or Nexus 4 or Optimus G and you've got your 4.7 inch screen. Want larger? How about the S3 (4.8") or S4 (5")? Oh, you want a phablet? You even have a choice in that category now...Note 2 (5.5") or Optimus G Pro (5.5").

If 4.7" is still too big for you, you can always go with something like the HTC One S (4.3" and I wouldn't call this a concession at all...it's a great phone with great specs).

BTW, there aren't a lot of 1080p screens out there at the moment. DNA, S4, HTC One...a few others. And these are a range of screen sizes as well.

----------

Im not sure what you meant but my point was that this is a bit silly to have to consider what you are going to say according to the person who opened the thread.

My point was that you instantly jumped to the most drastic conclusion (should posters have to have background checks before they post). Did you actually mean that? I doubt it. I was just making a point that there's no need to go off-the-ranch.

ucfgrad93
May 1, 2013, 10:35 AM
I think I'll wait until it is actually released before I get all worked up about it.:rolleyes:

Kashsystems
May 1, 2013, 10:41 AM
People tend to forget what a functioning app store did for the iPhone.
This was probably the most important feature for the iPhone's later success.

Remember that App Store came out before there was an Android phone.

Yes there were fart apps among other items, but this open the doors to a new market.

Also it allowed developers to create something new in the App Store, with a low cost of entry.

99 dollars and you are part of the developer program. Yes you needed a mac to program on, but these guys had Macs anyways.

What is the cost to update an game by Apple, zero dollars.

What is the cost to update your game on Xbox live.

10000 dollars.

Now I do not remember the costs for the PS3 or PSP

If I recall correctly you are allowed one free update on the xbox live store and that can not have new content, only bug fixes.

When you open the market for developers you help your own platform to grow.

This is why I am hoping on the Sony PS4 because it sounds like they are taking this kind of approach.


Part of the problem of these kind of debates, is a lot of people miss out bigger picture side of things.

Yes it is nice to talk about freedom vs enclosed architecture, but as I stated earlier, 90 percent of the mobile market doesn't really care.

It comes down to how much is it? How big is the screen? Can I text, facebook,view web, and call on it?

Does it have my Angry Birds on it?

There are some people stuck in ecosystems who won't switch, and that is understandable.

A lot of these people who are diving in really don't care about what we care about.

Liquorpuki
May 1, 2013, 11:09 AM
I think the biggest change they need is cosmetic. They have a branding issue right now with the same static UI being used. It's boring. Android and WP have already broke from a static app centric UI into a data centric one. Apple's UI is like a command line prompt in comparison..

Jony Ive is on it. The guy is an industrial designer who's talent is bridging the gap between aesthetics and usability. I think cosmetic changes will be the main focus. I don't know why they'd put him on it otherwise.

People tend to forget what a functioning app store did for the iPhone.
This was probably the most important feature for the iPhone's later success.

This is true and it's what jumpstarted the iOS ecosystem. The key thing Apple did with the app store was harness the internet as disruptive tech to revamp software distribution. That said, you can only use the internet as disruptive tech once per market.

What is the cost to update an game by Apple, zero dollars.

What is the cost to update your game on Xbox live.

10000 dollars.

You can't really compare because different forms of monetization. Apple can take a hit on software because they make money off hardware. MS's XBox division takes a hit on hardware and has to make it up through software.

That low cost of entry is give/take too. Low cost of entry ups the # of developers and drives down pricepoints, creating lower margins. An indie developer might have a runaway hit on iOS but with a low standard pricepoint, all the consumer gets are budget quality offerings across the board.

Tinmania
May 1, 2013, 11:39 AM
Yes it is nice to talk about freedom vs enclosed architecture, but as I stated earlier, 90 percent of the mobile market doesn't really care.
And 96.32% of internet stats are made up, on-the-spot.

No one needs to know a thing about closed vs open when they see me swipe down and tap once to turn off wifi. They just see and want it.



Michael

jrswizzle
May 1, 2013, 11:49 AM
And 96.32% of internet stats are made up, on-the-spot.

No one needs to know a thing about closed vs open when they see me swipe down and tap once to turn off wifi. They just see and want it.



Michael

No offense, but I'd say a majority of people couldn't care less.....

I think most people just get what's popular. The iPhone ran its course, now Samsung is big - its all about fads (1/2 the consumer base). Also - these are the people who's smartphone uses can be easily taken care of by ANY of the flagship smartphones - even older versions.

Then there are those who truly care about customization and toggles (1/4)

And there are those who think the customization and toggles are nice, but not ultimately game changers (1/4 - I fall into this category).

Tinmania
May 1, 2013, 11:52 AM
No offense, but I'd say a majority of people couldn't care less.....
I could have said the exact same thing about user-installable apps back in 2007. Well, Jobs pretty much did.

A drop-down toggle is no more complex than the notification center that is already there. When I show it to someone they do care. Of course they don't care if they don't know about it--just like they didn't care about an app store that didn't exist yet.

The issue is that there are now other brands doing things that Apple is not. In 2007 and early 2008 Apple didn't have that issue.




Michael

jrswizzle
May 1, 2013, 12:05 PM
I could have said the exact same thing about user-installable apps back in 2007. Well, Jobs pretty much did.

A drop-down toggle is no more complex than the notification center that is already there. When I show it to someone they do care. Of course they don't care if they don't know about it--just like they didn't care about an app store that didn't exist yet.

The issue is that there are now other brands doing things that Apple is not. In 2007 and early 2008 Apple didn't have that issue.




Michael

Ok - but, using myself as an example, being a longtime Apple user that toggle may not be all that more convenient. Many of these tasks are second nature to me on the iPhone - i can almost do these things without looking. So I move to the Nexus 4 and can toggle wifi and such from the notification center - Cool, but not life-changing. I'd imagine a majority of the consumer base - who generally use their phones for facebook, texting/calls and email also would have a similar reaction.

That's not to say I wouldn't welcome such a feature in the iPhone. Just saying I'd bet its relatively low on the priority list. Especially when I have no need to toggle things on my iPhone ever. Which is faster? Swiping down and tapping a toggle every so often, or simply leaving the option on and never touching it?

Kashsystems
May 1, 2013, 12:13 PM
And 96.32% of internet stats are made up, on-the-spot.

No one needs to know a thing about closed vs open when they see me swipe down and tap once to turn off wifi. They just see and want it.



Michael

How often are people staring at your phone looking at how you toggle wifi?

Most times when you go out to a restaurant or people standing around at the mall or wherever, they are staring at their own phones. They don't really care what you are using or doing unless you are part of their social circle.

The only time I think a person wonders how to do this on either phone is probably when they walk into their cellular provider's store and goes ask them. Or casually ask their random friend who is consider to be the "expert" among their group.

I bet most times they don't care that they had to hit one button or hit a couple buttons to turn off their wifi as long as there is a way to do what they want.

I don't think ease of use is that much of a selling point as long there is an email, text,phone, and facebook icon on their screen.

Tinmania
May 1, 2013, 12:19 PM
That's not to say I wouldn't welcome such a feature in the iPhone. Just saying I'd bet its relatively low on the priority list. Especially when I have no need to toggle things on my iPhone ever. Which is faster? Swiping down and tapping a toggle every so often, or simply leaving the option on and never touching it?
That works if you never have to change anything. I often have to toggle wifi off when it is flaky or I am in a place where it will auto-connect to hotspots I am just walking by (which need logging in). Fortunately with my Note 2 I don't need to toggle stuff off to save battery--thankfully.

But people generally are creatures of habit. I was setting up wifi at girlfriend's dental office the other day and there was this one dental assistant who could not get it to work. She had an S3. It would not bring up the captive portal login. So, I told her to open up a browser window to see if it would force the login page but all she knew how to use was google now. She had never once opened the browser directly and just handed me the phone when I became exasperated with her failure to understand my simple request.



Michael

cynics
May 1, 2013, 01:03 PM
Cosmetically I think iOS is fine for the most part. I feel it needs updates just for ease of use. The lack of a file system was fine when iOS was introduced and still ok for a while after the App Store was released. However now I can find the phone difficult to use when dealing with files.

Back when iOS was introduced a phone was a phone and a computer was a computer. This day in age I find it more and more useful to use my phone like a computer. I feel it's just the natural progression of things. I also feel its possible for a company such as apple to come up with an elegant solution.

I'm not gonna say "oh iOS is stale and archaic" however picking up a phone on previous versions of iOS take me a couple minutes to realize such. I can tell the differences between windows and android version near instantly. Not saying that is necessarily a good thing, just saying.

I'm going to hold my judgement until I've used iOS 7 for a few weeks however.

onthecouchagain
May 1, 2013, 01:52 PM
Again, I don't understand the position that it's okay if Apple isn't giving us the changes that some people want because millions are still buying iPhones. That's great for Apple, but not great for consumers. Why not give consumers options? It's not like the foundations of iOS will suddenly be gone. It'll just be more options on top of what's there. Why can't Apple figure out a way that isn't going to alienate or confuse their already installed base?

Also, you don't think people will learn? You don't think people will happily learn how to use their new shiny Apple products? People sign up for classes and happily do so.

This is a bizarre position to take. There is no gain in apologizing for Apple, especially when the argument is "they still sell millions." Don't you understand that that's ironically part of the problem; that Apple can get away with these sorts of "updates" hardware and software wise.

tjl3
May 1, 2013, 01:54 PM
Another thing to add to this is most of the hype and speculation has been centered on Jony Ive's role in human interface. But also Craig Federighi and Eddie Cue are responsible for iOS development on, as far as I understood, an equal level.


Again, I don't understand the position that it's okay if Apple isn't giving us the changes that some people want because millions are still buying iPhones. That's great for Apple, but not great for consumers. Why not give consumers options? It's not like the foundations of iOS will suddenly be gone. It'll just be more options on top of what's there. Why can't Apple figure out a way that isn't going to alienate or confuse their already installed base?

Also, you don't think people will learn? You don't think people will happily learn how to use their new shiny Apple products? People sign up for classes and happily do so.

This is a bizarre position to take. There is no gain in apologizing for Apple, especially when the argument is "they still sell millions." Don't you understand that that's ironically part of the problem; that Apple can get away with these sorts of "updates" hardware and software wise.

I don't think anyone is saying that or implying it is ok for Apple to withhold change because iPhone is selling so well. I can think of two changes Apple will never give us no matter how many people want it: sd card and removable battery. I, personally, am ok with this because it is behind their design philosophy.

But also, when Apple does change and add features they should take caution with radical changes like MS's Windows 8.

Carouser
May 1, 2013, 03:49 PM
So let me get this straight:

If Apple makes changes, and people like them, but the OP doesn't, then those people are dupes of Apple's marketing department. Also, the OP speaks for 'us' and 'what we consumers really want'.

Also, if you agree with the OP, then you deserve thanks for understanding his point; if you disagree then you are off on a tangent or conjuring up a red herring.

Constant hand-wringing and lamentation doesn't solve any 'problem'. A refusal to spend time finding fault with iOS isn't 'apologizing' for Apple.

cynics
May 1, 2013, 05:23 PM
So let me get this straight:

If Apple makes changes, and people like them, but the OP doesn't, then those people are dupes of Apple's marketing department. Also, the OP speaks for 'us' and 'what we consumers really want'.

Also, if you agree with the OP, then you deserve thanks for understanding his point; if you disagree then you are off on a tangent or conjuring up a red herring.

Constant hand-wringing and lamentation doesn't solve any 'problem'. A refusal to spend time finding fault with iOS isn't 'apologizing' for Apple.

Think you're reading to far into this. It sounds like you are making excuses for something.

daneoni
May 1, 2013, 06:18 PM
Think you're reading to far into this. It sounds like you are making excuses for something.

Not really. He's just highlighting most of the undertones of couch's (and other alternative platformers here) rhetoric.

Bottom line is at the end of the day iOS will never likely never have widgets nor will iPhones have removable batteries and SD slots. Apple has a philosophy and thats just the way it is.

Thankfully we have choice. If you don't like Apple's way of doing things go and get Android, WP or BB. Most of the general consumers (and some geeks) i know are delighted with their iPhones and/or hate their alternative platforms. And most of the geeks (and some general users) i know prefer their alternative platforms and hate iOS.

Find the platform that caters to how you operate and enjoy.

Because with Apple its "what will 80% of general users want to do 80% of the time" the remaining esoteric 20% simply don't matter as much to them...never have and probably never will. And you can't blame them because the numbers and feedback speak for themselves.

Contrary to popular belief marketing can only get you so far if your product lacks substance. If marketing was all it took then Nokia's Lumias would be flying off shelves right now and Sriracha sauce would be totally anonymous (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-02-21/sriracha-hot-sauce-catches-fire-with-only-one-rooster)

Tinmania
May 1, 2013, 06:40 PM
Not really. He's just highlighting most of the undertones of couch's (and other alternative platformers here) rhetoric.

Bottom line is at the end of the day iOS will never likely never have widgets nor will iPhones have removable batteries and SD slots. Its just the way it is.
Throwing in removable batteries and SD slots are red herrings. First, they have nothing to do with an OS. Second, the phone that the guy you are complaining about presently owns, has no removable battery nor SD slot. :rolleyes:

As for widgets, iOS already does to a certain extent: weather and stocks in notification center, and the day of the month on the calendar (yay). Widgets do not need to be the big bad monster some seem to think that they are.




Michael

daneoni
May 1, 2013, 06:49 PM
Throwing in removable batteries and SD slots are red herrings. First, they have nothing to do with an OS. Second, the phone that the guy you are complaining about presently owns, has no removable battery nor SD slot. :rolleyes:

As for widgets, iOS already does to a certain extent: weather and stocks in notification center, and the day of the month on the calendar (yay). Widgets do not need to be the big bad monster some seem to think that they are.

Michael

You miss the point.

Tinmania
May 1, 2013, 06:51 PM
You miss the point.
The point of this thread is an OS and not hardware. SD and removable batteries are merely go-to items that really don't apply in this context.




Michael

daneoni
May 1, 2013, 06:53 PM
The point of this thread is an OS and not hardware. SD and removable batteries are merely go-to items that really don't apply in this context.

Michael

Still missing the point.

KentuckyHouse
May 1, 2013, 07:45 PM
Still missing the point.

No, you're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the hardware. OP is talking about the software.

Got any more smart remarks to make yourself appear intelligent? Why are you here anyway? It's pretty obvious which platform works best for you and this is the alternatives to iOS and iOS devices section. It's not the "let's go defend iOS" section.

BTW, people don't have to "hate" either platform. Some, like me, have and use both. Both have shortcomings, both have strengths. No need to divide people into groups more than already happens by being derisive towards other members.

daneoni
May 1, 2013, 07:48 PM
^
Classy. *sigh* I shouldn't have bothered.

Apple is a hardware and software company and their design philosophy applies to both categories since they're heavy on vertical integration. So when you say this is an OS thread you're simply nitpicking a distinction without any real difference. It means nothing.

Whether I gave a removable battery, 5 inch 1080p screen, widgets, shortcuts, setting default apps, real multi-tasking or sharing to third party vendors as examples is irrelevant. The reason iOS and iPhones and OSX and Macs are the way they are is precisely because of Apple's design philosophy.

If we were talking about Android then you can play the OS/Hardware card. Since hardware and OS are legitimately separate components of the platform.

PS i own a Nexus 4 (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=17127409&postcount=1741) and have owned flagships from pretty much every platform out there.

Tinmania
May 1, 2013, 07:48 PM
No, you're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the hardware. OP is talking about the software.

Got any more smart remarks to make yourself appear intelligent? Why are you here anyway? It's pretty obvious which platform works best for you and this is the alternatives to iOS and iOS devices section. It's not the "let's go defend iOS" section.

BTW, people don't have to "hate" either platform. Some, like me, have and use both. Both have shortcomings, both have strengths. No need to divide people into groups more than already happens by being derisive towards other members.
Well said. It's a shame, some of the stuff we have to put up with in this forum.



Michael

onthecouchagain
May 1, 2013, 08:44 PM
iOS doesn't even need a lot to get better. Look at the jailbreak community. They're figuring out iOS faster than Apple is (or are willing to).

Look up Zephyr -- this is a thing of pure brilliance. Always reliable, always there. Made using my iPhone 5 monumentally better.

Likewise, look at Auxo for a clever and aesthetically pleasing way to do setting toggle widgets. And they all fall under Apple's design philosophy. It's so natural that if you didn't know better, you'd believe it was from Apple themselves.

Or even simple things like giving us the security option on whether we want to require a password every time we download an app or not. This is not a lot to ask for. Let us choose.

Or a better keyboard with a full range of long-press options. Does Apple really think people don't know about or haven't or can't learn about long pressing? Give us better auto corrections too. The keyboard is long overdue for an update. Look at Swiftkey's autocorrection (not even their prediction; their autocorrection). It's absolutely genius. Allow us to control our personal dictionary. Allow us (you know, the individual people actually doing the typing) to choose what words we want added and--just as important--not added.

Or little things like don't let Safari suddenly go blank because you lose signal. I love that on Android, if you're reading something on the web but lose signal, nothing happens. You're allowed to keep reading. Heck, you're even allowed to press "back" and it'll take you to the previous page if you want to go back and read something there. With Safari, it would just give up and give you that Safari prompt that you don't have service.

Likewise, give us a real email experience. Mail sucks. There's no way to know which inbox your mail came in from, you have to navigate out and back in if you want to see Sent messages, you can't keep more than a few weeks worth of mail (conversely, Gmail lets you keep your ENTIRE mailbox). And like Safari, don't crap out on us because there's no signal. I love that Gmail pre-downloads everything for you. Once, I had no service, but was still able to open an attachment in an email that I had never opened before. It was already downloaded. This is smart for a smartphone. Do I need to mention attachments? I think it's a joke that people want to use the iPhone as a business phone. How am I going to send multiple Excel sheets to multiple clients or multiple photo samples to different people? Do I really have to "share" them?

Speaking of sharing, why not allow us to share to more than just Facebook/Twitter. Gasp, other things exist to share to. What can you share to in Android? Anything you want!

I also hate that when you have no service, you can't send any messages. You'll get that red "!" and that's it. Oh, thanks. Whereas on Android, it'll be queued up and will automatically send it out when you regain service. With iOS, you have to tap the "!" and choose yes to resend. Again, some might call the way Android does it smarter.

None of these are major requests. None of these are impossible for Apple to do. None of these things will necessarily alienate their already established base. None of this means they won't continue to sell millions of iPhones. None of this hurts people who don't want these features.

If you don't want iOS to improve in such ways, so be it, but it's ridiculous to argue that Apple shouldn't because sales are great and/or there are people out there that don't want them. Whoopity-do. And there are people out there that do. See how that cancels each other out?

What does it hurt to add more features to iOS? What does it hurt to make iOS more flexible, more powerful? What does it hurt to make iOS smarter and easier to use? The competition has figured out how to accomplish almost everything faster and easier at this point in time.

But iOS will look flatter. Great.

I sincerely hope iOS 7 is more than that.

tjl3
May 1, 2013, 09:25 PM
No, you're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the hardware. OP is talking about the software.



Or, it could be Android's (and I guess WP8 and BB10, too) moment to really distance itself. If iOS 7 won't give people the things they want, and will still be on a 4" screen, will more people migrate? They should. Or else Apple may never change the way we want and at the speed we want.


Actually the OP did bring up hardware. I actually was the one who stated SD card/battery first b/c I was trying to sum up his displeasure w/ Apple as an all inclusive "Apple doesn't give us choices period" instead of just in iOS.

I also happen to be in the minority who prefers the iPhone keyboard and I don't mind the mail app. Tbh, none of those previous complaints are very high on my list of complaints w/ the iOS platform. But I'm not arguing that you should have the same view, you have every right to have that opinion.

Kariya
May 1, 2013, 10:29 PM
Actually the OP did bring up hardware.....

Ah, but alas it was easier to insult him, then call him a fanboy...all whilst being self-righteous about it. :rolleyes:


No, you're missing the point. This has nothing to do with the hardware. OP is talking about the software.

Got any more smart remarks to make yourself appear intelligent? Why are you here anyway? It's pretty obvious which platform works best for you and this is the alternatives to iOS and iOS devices section. It's not the "let's go defend iOS" section.

BTW, people don't have to "hate" either platform. Some, like me, have and use both. Both have shortcomings, both have strengths. No need to divide people into groups more than already happens by being derisive towards other members.

Well said. It's a shame, some of the stuff we have to put up with in this forum.

Michael

Miggy09
May 1, 2013, 11:18 PM
It's ok not to like a platform, be it iOS, Android, Windows, BB, etc. This thread is kind of ridiculous though. Why the OP puts himself through hell by using iOS, I have no idea. A lot of his posts are really childish and contradicting, and its a bit embarassing.

He starts off this thread by saying how he will likely be disappointed with iOS 7, but the truth is even before any of it has been revealed he has already been predisposed to loathe it:

I was afraid of this...

If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.


I don't think it is humanly possible to release a iOS 7 that will change his mind:

I can't tell you how happy I am to be back on Android. It's like waking up from a bad nightmare. Almost everything is so much better and easier on Android. It's such a liberating feeling.

Just a couple days earlier he seemed pretty primed for the possibility of a Android 4.3 instead of the next major release at Google I/O:

Really interested in seeing what the new Nex 7 brings...

Despite the lack of information by both companies, he seems pretty upbeat about the next minor revision of one platform and pretty down on the major revision of the other, to which he is a user of both.

But lets get back on topic, because he couldn't have possibly said this to just all around contradict himself:

They couldn't do "what Apple does" if they tried. If you want to talk about lack of UI refreshes, Apple is king of the hill. ;)

Honestly, why even bother posting a 30 day journey with iPhone 5 in the Alternatives forum, its offtopic already. As much 'praise' as he gives the iPhone it just seems like bitterness towards that platform to the point of trolling this side of the forums about it:



Former owner of iPhone 5, Nexus 4, Galaxy Nexus, iPhone 4S. After having problems with defective Nexus 4's, I went with the iPhone 5 because I wasn't initially impressed with either the S4 or the One. The lenient Apple return policy also afforded me time to make my decision. The jailbroken iPhone 5 actually came close to being a keeper to tie me over until more options came out later in the year, but its instability and the 4" screen couldn't prevail. I had to make a decision.



To the OP, save yourself the headache and stop bitching and moaning about something you have no intent on actually using.

adnbek
May 2, 2013, 06:27 AM
iOS doesn't even need a lot to get better. Look at the jailbreak community. They're figuring out iOS faster than Apple is (or are willing to).

I'll tell you one thing... I wish Apple would accelerate the animation speeds, like fakeclockup does, to 1.4 or 1.6x. Since reverting to stock, the phone feels so slow in comparison because I got used to how fast it was when activated. The animations when switching apps or navigating through menus are slowed down on purpose and fakeclockup demonstrates how snappy iOS can actually be.

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 07:19 AM
It's ok not to like a platform, be it iOS, Android, Windows, BB, etc. This thread is kind of ridiculous though. Why the OP puts himself through hell by using iOS, I have no idea. A lot of his posts are really childish and contradicting, and its a bit embarassing.

He starts off this thread by saying how he will likely be disappointed with iOS 7, but the truth is even before any of it has been revealed he has already been predisposed to loathe it:



I don't think it is humanly possible to release a iOS 7 that will change his mind:



Just a couple days earlier he seemed pretty primed for the possibility of a Android 4.3 instead of the next major release at Google I/O:



Despite the lack of information by both companies, he seems pretty upbeat about the next minor revision of one platform and pretty down on the major revision of the other, to which he is a user of both.

But lets get back on topic, because he couldn't have possibly said this to just all around contradict himself:



Honestly, why even bother posting a 30 day journey with iPhone 5 in the Alternatives forum, its offtopic already. As much 'praise' as he gives the iPhone it just seems like bitterness towards that platform to the point of trolling this side of the forums about it:



To the OP, save yourself the headache and stop bitching and moaning about something you have no intent on actually using.

Okay. Thanks for the suggestion and taking many things out of context. Also I own an ipad. Mind blowing I know.

----------

I'll tell you one thing... I wish Apple would accelerate the animation speeds, like fakeclockup does, to 1.4 or 1.6x. Since reverting to stock, the phone feels so slow in comparison because I got used to how fast it was when activated. The animations when switching apps or navigating through menus are slowed down on purpose and fakeclockup demonstrates how snappy iOS can actually be.

You're looking at the animation speed wrong. ;)

Abazigal
May 2, 2013, 07:44 AM
I think that people have to realize that ios and android ultimately do very different things. Android tends to cram as many features as possible to compensate for it behind more complex than iOS because it doesn't have anything to cannibalise. Conversely, because the iPhone and ipad are intended as companion devices to macs, they (as a general rule of thumb) will never come close to replacing a PC, though there are many overlaps.

iOS also needs to tread a fine line between being feature-rich and remaining easy to use, but I think people in general recognize this and don't mind it technically being behind android in terms of functions, so long as it meets their basic needs well enough.

The-Real-Deal82
May 2, 2013, 08:02 AM
The point he was making is simple - and true. All Apple needs to do is release a visual overhaul of iOS and, through their clever marketing, will have millions of people drooling over it, when all they'd have done is really just release an iOS update that is the equivalent of a visual theme.

People will be saying it's faster, easier to use, more intuitive and smoother just because Apple will market it that way.
Is that a bad thing then?
I bought my iPhone because I like the look of the interface and I like the product design of the handset. I was willing to pay a little more for something I like, why is that so often labelled as such a bad thing amongst forum people?

This in no way means I lack any particular intellect or am easily swayed by marketing. I buy what I like and have little or no care what others do with their money. Its not a revolution where I feel I have to persuade everyone that my thinking is correct. In the UK the likes of Samsung are marketing way more than their competitors and are selling as a result. I wouldn't dream of criticising one of their customers for purchasing off the back of such things. products are marketed and products are bought. :confused:

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 08:26 AM
Okay let's make this perfectly clear since this seems to be a point of contention:

Of course there exists people who buy the iPhone because they genuinely want to! Can this red herring be put to rest? Sensitive much?

Can we talk about ios now and what could be ios 7?

The-Real-Deal82
May 2, 2013, 08:39 AM
I was just having my say if that is ok? That was a rhetorical question because of course it is.

There are several iOS 7 threads running at present and its got the point in most where opinions going off on tangents are being discussed, rather than iOS 7 which is still very much unknown.

As to the answer of your question I don't think it needs to be compared with Android and the assumption its going to fall further behind. Android is a different part of the market to iOS and if Apple were seriously pushing to compete, I think they would do a Samsung and release 10 different handsets at once. Both interfaces are difficult to compare because one interface is only available on one type of phone and the other provides a OS across multiple manufacturers.

Unless Apple start selling iOS to independent manufacturers to put on their devices, Android is always going to be further ahead for obvious reasons. Whether consumers think Android is ahead because of what it can do, is purely subjective. At the end of the day consumers buy what they desire and both platforms are hugely popular.

To add further and give my personal opinion; if iOS 7 brings mostly cosmetic changes with only a few features, I will not be disappointed. I love iOS 6 as it does everything I wish it to and neatly. If they improve is overall appearance and deliver something different, then I will greet the change positively. Its already a good product, so lets wait and see.

jrswizzle
May 2, 2013, 08:46 AM
Okay let's make this perfectly clear since this seems to be a point of contention:

Of course there exists people who buy the iPhone because they genuinely want to! Can this red herring be put to rest? Sensitive much?

Can we talk about ios now and what could be ios 7?

Couch - are you really telling OTHERS to stop being so sensitive?

I don't really want to jump into the middle of this, but others' divisive comments are only spurned on by your dramatic rhetoric. Something is either brilliant or an absolute nightmare.

None of these phones will be perfect (as you are well aware) and given the fact we are still months from even a keynote telling us what iOS7 will do and look like, I think its a bit premature to be going into your usual "woe is me, iOS 7 is a sick joke" routine.

Can't we just wait for it to be released before deeming it a failure and causing a fuss? How about taking this rumor about iOS 7 being flatter as only ONE rumor and talk about it as such. It's easy to discuss the ins and outs of a flatter iOS without making some grandiose claim that "oh well that's all iOS 7 will be, Apple sucks and the world is doomed".

iOS 7 will be flatter.....I doubt this is earth-shattering news given who now leads the design team. Let's wait to see if other features leak - or better yet, wait until Apple themselves announce the damn thing before moving to judge it so completely.

KentuckyHouse
May 2, 2013, 08:50 AM
Ah, but alas it was easier to insult him, then call him a fanboy...all whilst being self-righteous about it. :rolleyes:

This is a very good point and I apologize for that. I just feel like couch gets attacked because he's trying to point out things on here and I felt the need to defend him. As a user of both platforms, I'm in a position to see exactly what he's talking about and feel the same way on lots of the points he makes.

But I shouldn't have contradicted myself like that.

jrswizzle
May 2, 2013, 08:57 AM
This is a very good point and I apologize for that. I just feel like couch gets attacked because he's trying to point out things on here and I felt the need to defend him. As a user of both platforms, I'm in a position to see exactly what he's talking about and feel the same way on lots of the points he makes.

But I shouldn't have contradicted myself like that.

Being a multi-platform user myself, I don't think Couch gets attacked because of WHAT he's trying to point out, just the WAY he goes about doing so.

It's all very over-the-top. And in this particular case, WAY too early to be getting all bent out of shape over a rumor we all should've known was coming given Ive's new role.

Night Spring
May 2, 2013, 08:59 AM
But iOS will look flatter. Great.

I sincerely hope iOS 7 is more than that.

I don't get why you are being so pessimistic about iOS 7. You are talking like all they are going to do is change the looks with absolutely NO feature changes. I'm sure that won't be the case. Apple might not add all the features you want, nor make as many feature changes as you want, but surely there would be SOME changes. Each new generation of iOS have included some new features -- iOS 6, for instance, added the Do Not Disturb feature, which I find extremely convenient. They also added the feature to allow users to lock the iOS device into a single app -- very handy for parents, users with special needs, and also for using iPads in "kiosk" mode.

Plus, I'd be surprised if some of Jony Ive's design changes didn't result in increased ease of use to the extent that the ease of use is a feature in itself. That is a common characteristic of lots of Mac hardware, where the design IS a feature. Like the thinness of the MacBook Air is a design, but it also makes it more portable, which is a function. I believe involving him in software design was so that he could bring that kind of design=feature philosophy to software design too. So don't assume that focus on design = no new features. Let's wait and see the final product before we rush to criticize and condemn it.

KentuckyHouse
May 2, 2013, 09:34 AM
Being a multi-platform user myself, I don't think Couch gets attacked because of WHAT he's trying to point out, just the WAY he goes about doing so.

It's all very over-the-top. And in this particular case, WAY too early to be getting all bent out of shape over a rumor we all should've known was coming given Ive's new role.

You're right. There's really no need to get all worked up over something a month and a half before it's released...lol. I guess some people are looking at past history (re: Apple) and thinking since they never change things THAT much, this will just be a small change as well and they get upset. Other than history, there's no real basis for opinions at this point.

That being said, I'm all for speculation (isn't that part of the fun?) We all just need to keep our heads about us while doing it. Do I hope June holds a totally revamped iOS from both an aesthetic and functional standpoint? Of course? Who doesn't love shiny and new (or in this case, apparently, flat and new)? But I'm also not holding my breath. If I had to guess, I'd say it'll be somewhere in the middle between safe and totally different. Apple isn't stupid...they know iOS needs a revamp. Implementing it so it doesn't cause widespread panic among it's less-technical users, though, is a real concern, I'm sure. I have faith they can find a happy medium. :cool:

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 10:23 AM
At no point do I say iOS 7 is disappointing. How would I know that? Please read the OP again for all those saying I'm reacting to something that doesn't exist yet. I'm perfectly aware. This is a rumor's site. Are we not allowed to discuss rumors? Again, I hope these rumors don't pan out and iOS 7 brings more than just a "flatter" design.

Also, to continue on my point earlier, when I say something like "people will be duped by Apple's marketing," do I really have to put a disclaimer every time that I obviously don't mean every single iPhone buyer? C'mon now. How could I (or anyone, for that matter) claim to know the minds of millions of people? That'd be ridiculous.

However, there are some of us who, when we heard 'Jon Ivy is going to overhaul iOS 7" a few months ago, got hopeful. This is the first time we've seen a major shift from within Apple. Forestall got kicked out, Ivy got put in, some big changes would be coming. The big question was, what sort of changes? Can we not have a discussion about a recent article/rumor that might give us a potential answer, and that that answer might dash our excitement and hopes for iOS 7? Can this not be discussed?

People are free to continue with the red herrings or non-sequiturs and straw man arguments if they'd like. Others are interested in discussing the potentials of iOS and Apple allowing it to be realized. Again, look to the jailbreak community. They are figuring it out faster than Apple is willing to. iOS could be so much more.

And it should.

Carouser
May 2, 2013, 10:37 AM
So is this thread a place for people to list changes they would like to see in iOS? Because I'm pretty sure there's a subforum with a well-read topic on that very subject. People are free to state their opinions there, go for it.

But read the thread title, "iOS 7 Changes Mostly Cosmetic - More opportunity for Android to get further ahead". And the OP's posts - it's not just a list of preferences, it's presenting preferences as though they were objective problems, shoring up the idea that iOS is deficient, or spreading the idea that iOS 7 will be deficient.

Many people have read the OP's posts in good faith and found them wanting, or contradictory, or misleading, and when they point this out, they are accused of strawmanning or missing the point or going off on a tangent. As a result, I don't know how else one could respond to the OP beyond saying "yes you are right and if there's a problem with your argument it's my fault for not inferring a more sympathetic interpretation".

EDIT: The 'of course I don't mean every person is duped by Apple's marketing, how could I know the mind of millions of people' would be more convincing if the OP ever extended the same observation to other manufacturers. One also wonders what the point of saying that in the first place was - it was pretty elaborate, too, veils over eyes and everything.

What it's doing is setting the stage for the iOS 7 release: if it bombs, well, there's proof that Apple screwed it up. If it's successful, well, there's the proof that marketing trumps 'doing what people really want'. The OP's frame throughout the thread isn't simply to state preferences for iOS 7, it's to frame Apple as objectively second-tier. Then, if people are perfectly happy with iOS 6, or 7, then can be painted as disingenuous when they don't rehearse criticisms constantly.

Tinmania
May 2, 2013, 10:44 AM
I will say the title of this thread should have began with "if." I automatically assumed that. But taken verbatim it does appear like it is a given that iOS 7 will be primarily cosmetically changed.



Michael

Carouser
May 2, 2013, 10:48 AM
I will say the title of this thread should have began with "if." I automatically assumed that. But taken verbatim it does appear like it is a given that iOS 7 will be primarily cosmetically changed.


Even if the title was speculative ('if' changes are mostly cosmetic) the operating assumptions are already baked-in: If Apple makes mostly cosmetic changes, then they have failed. If people are satisfied with those changes, this is implied to be a problem.

Tinmania
May 2, 2013, 10:52 AM
Even if the title was speculative ('if' changes are mostly cosmetic) the operating assumptions are already baked-in: If Apple makes mostly cosmetic changes, then they have failed. If people are satisfied with those changes, this is implied to be a problem.
I can't really agree with that since it was posted in this forum and only related to Android getting further ahead. Android getting further ahead does not mean people will not be satisfied with iOS.



Michael

Carouser
May 2, 2013, 10:55 AM
Even the phrase "Android getting further ahead" already implies that "Android is ahead"! By engaging the OP on his own terms, even if you argue "no, Android won't get further ahead" you're already conceding the point, that Android is superior (or 'ahead' for whatever value of 'ahead' you want to use).

And since this subforum is about honest discussion and comparison, not 'rah rah Android is clearly better', then why would one be compelled to concede that point?

I might as well point out the constant assumption that Android appeals to 'more technical' users whereas iOS users choose their OS because of simplicity, and that Apple should appeal to 'tech-heads as well as old people'. Basically: "Android is for smarties like us and iOS works well for dummies. What's your problem? That's okay if that's what people prefer". It gets posted without question so often it might as well be wallpaper for this forum.

Tinmania
May 2, 2013, 11:03 AM
Even the phrase "Android getting further ahead" already implies that "Android is ahead"! By engaging the OP on his own terms, even if you argue "no, Android won't get further ahead" you're already conceding the point, that Android is superior (or 'ahead' for whatever value of 'ahead' you want to use).

And since this subforum is about honest discussion and comparison, not 'rah rah Android is clearly better', then why would one be compelled to concede that point?

Because it is a fact. That is not even up for debate at this point in time.



Michael

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 11:17 AM
I really don't know what to tell you, Carouser. You're wrong. Maybe I could have worded a few things more clearly, sure -- I wouldn't put that of the realm of possibility.

But if you're done, there are people here interested in talking about iOS 7, instead of talking about me and the way I post.

Carouser
May 2, 2013, 11:23 AM
You heard it here first, folks - the subforum where you can talk about stuff honestly, both pros and cons, and have a genuine discussion? Well, it's a fact that Android is better and this is not up for debate, so uh, there you go.

Now, if you'd like to talk about what you'd like to see in iOS 7, instead of going to the relevant forum, stay here. Why? Because this thread must be about something other than hopes for iOS 7. If you ask the OP to elaborate or defend what this thread is about, or if you find the premises of the conversation questionable, well, "You're wrong, get out. I could word it more clearly, but I won't."

Night Spring
May 2, 2013, 12:10 PM
You heard it here first, folks - the subforum where you can talk about stuff honestly, both pros and cons, and have a genuine discussion? Well, it's a fact that Android is better and this is not up for debate, so uh, there you go.

I quite agree that this "Android is better, there is no room for debate" attitude is off-putting, and not conductive to open discussion. It could be the case that Android has more features than iOS, and that is an objectively measurable fact for which there would be no debate. But whether or not more features equals a better OS is a matter of subjective opinion, and should be open for debate.

I am quite happy with my iPhone and iPads, but I like to read threads in this subforum because I'm curious about other platforms, like Android, Win8, BlackBerry, etc. I feel threads here are more informative than product reviews, because they contain posts by people who actually use the devices in real life, and also because most posters here are switchers from iOS, so they can provide concrete examples of the differences between iOS and alternate platforms. However, it's starting to feel like this subforum is for switchers only, and non-switchers are unwelcome here. *You* may have decided that iOS is no longer for you, but that shouldn't mean that those of us who still stick with iOS should be made to feel defensive about out choice.

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 02:00 PM
Android is better, but no one said you couldn't like and/or enjoy or prefer iOS. Ridiculous accusations.

And yet again straw mans and red herrings. People keep saying "all Couch ever replies with is 'this is a straw man and this is a red herring.'" Well, what do you want me to say when it is?

The discussion here is:

iOS 7 could be so much better. Jailbreak community proves it. Apple, for better or worse, won't implement these [really obvious] features, or implements them at a snail's pace. There are people who wish they would give us things more and more quickly. That's the discussion. And when the shakeup happened at Apple, there was a good opportunity and hope that iOS 7 would bring those changes (it still might!), but a recent story points to the overhaul being mostly cosmetic. That's disappointing.

Okay, big whoop if there are people who prefer iOS or think iOS is good enough. Like I said, there are others who don't agree. If that's all we're going to do is point out people who like iOS and people who don't like iOS, what's the point of discussing? Thanks for pointing that out. I knew that already, but all right.

Again... can we talk about iOS 7 and what it might be, could be, should be, would like it to be?

jrswizzle
May 2, 2013, 02:07 PM
Android is better, but no one said you couldn't like and/or enjoy or prefer iOS. Ridiculous accusations.

And yet again straw mans and red herrings. People keep saying "all Couch ever replies with is 'this is a straw man and this is a red herring.'" Well, what do you want me to say when it is?

The discussion here is:

iOS 7 could be so much better. Jailbreak community proves it. Apple, for better or worse, won't implement these [really obvious] features, or implements them at a snail's pace. There are people who wish they would give us things more and more quickly. That's the discussion. And when the shakeup happened at Apple, there was a good opportunity and hope that iOS 7 would bring those changes (it still might!), but a recent story points to the overhaul being mostly cosmetic. That's disappointing.

Okay, big whoop if there are people who prefer iOS or think iOS is good enough. Like I said, there are others who don't agree. If that's all we're going to do is point out people who like iOS and people who don't like iOS, what's the point of discussing? Thanks for pointing that out. I knew that already, but all right.

Again... can we talk about iOS 7 and what it might be, could be, should be, would like it to be?

Again - its a rumor we all knew was coming, and while the stories say iOS 7 will see a big design overall, that doesn't mean there won't also be fundamental changes in some of the things you complain about.

A design change could mean an overhaul for the layout of the settings app.

Why, with over a month before the damn thing is even released, you would be disappointed is beyond me. Wait until iOS 7 is announced.

We can still discuss what we want in iOS 7 without making these types of "jump to conclusions" statements. The rumor is, iOS 7 will see a major redesign - I don't get why people assume this simply means differently colored apps....

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 02:22 PM
Again - its a rumor we all knew was coming, and while the stories say iOS 7 will see a big design overall, that doesn't mean there won't also be fundamental changes in some of the things you complain about.

A design change could mean an overhaul for the layout of the settings app.

Why, with over a month before the damn thing is even released, you would be disappointed is beyond me. Wait until iOS 7 is announced.

We can still discuss what we want in iOS 7 without making these types of "jump to conclusions" statements. The rumor is, iOS 7 will see a major redesign - I don't get why people assume this simply means differently colored apps....

Yes, let's never have or discuss feelings about rumors at a rumors site and a rumors forum where rumors are the name of the game the majority of the time. Rumors.

jrswizzle
May 2, 2013, 02:30 PM
Yes, let's never have or discuss feelings about rumors at a rumors site and a rumors forum where rumors are the name of the game the majority of the time. Rumors.

Good lord Couch - I said we CAN discuss.....what you did and are doing is taking a rumor and making it truth so you can whine and complain about how iOS 7 is disappointing.

How about, instead of doing this:

"Man, this article says iOS 7 will bring primarily design changes - if that's true, I'm disappointed and Apple will continue to dupe millions of people into buying this garbage."

We do this:

"Man, this article says iOS 7 will bring primarily design changes. I wonder how those changes could affect certain menus that need tweaking like the settings menu. Could an overall UI redesign mean simpler ways to toggle settings? etc...etc...."

The first was complaining. The second was the beginning of a discussion. See the difference?

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 03:20 PM
what you did and are doing is taking a rumor and making it truth so you can whine and complain about how iOS 7 is disappointing.

Please check the OP again. How is this "making it truth":


I was afraid of this: http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/29/details-on-jony-ives-very-very-flat-design-for-ios-7/

"While the look of the updated system may be surprising to some, iOS 7 is reportedly not more difficult to use than earlier versions of software platform. There is apparently no new learning curve in the same way there was no learning curve when the iPods went color. While iOS 7 does look different, its core apps and system fundamentals (like the Lock and Home screens) mostly operate in a similar fashion to how they do today."

If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.



http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mc0og3urtg1qdprexo1_500.gif

jrswizzle
May 2, 2013, 03:27 PM
Please check the OP again.




Image (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0o2oUUD4khE/UIAb7jwauvI/AAAAAAAAA0U/TFFWM3Y7vZ8/s1600/plez-proceed.jpg)

Is that not exactly what I said? I just added the second part that you said later on.

Anyways - whatever, you want to have a "discussion" where you start off disappointed and follow up with comments about how "if true" millions of Apple fans will eat it up and continue to be duped by Apple's marketing, I want to simply discuss what we know and what it could mean with no emotional comments necessary.

Aren't you the bastion of objectivity? Probably should let the emotions go and just think about the facts.

Not necessarily disputing WHAT you said (I think you DO want to have a genuine discussion), just HOW you said it (you tend to mix in your points with over the top dramatic nonsense).

Let's discuss iveOS 7, without the "if its only cosmetic, people will still be tricked and buy it" comments. They don't serve ANY purpose.

Night Spring
May 2, 2013, 04:51 PM
If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.

And how about those of us who are pretty satisfied with iOS as it is, and not looking forward to any huge changes? For me, big changes would be a negative, as I'd have to relearn how to do a lot of stuff. I'm not saying iOS is perfect as it is, there are many little things that can be tweaked. For instance, I'd consider having settings toggles in the notification center a tweak -- but maybe that's because I already have that through jailbreak. More accuracy and refinement in how autocorrect works would be welcome, too. However, I don't want to open up iOS 7 and see something completely different from what I'm used to. *That* could just about drive me to Android, lol. The main advantage of iOS to me is that I know it well, and I don't have to spend time figuring out how to do stuff. If iOS changed so much that I was faced with a big learning curve, well, might as well learn a new system while I'm at it.

thehustleman
May 2, 2013, 04:56 PM
Apple has a lot of catching up to do

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 05:41 PM
And how about those of us who are pretty satisfied with iOS as it is, and not looking forward to any huge changes? For me, big changes would be a negative, as I'd have to relearn how to do a lot of stuff. I'm not saying iOS is perfect as it is, there are many little things that can be tweaked. For instance, I'd consider having settings toggles in the notification center a tweak -- but maybe that's because I already have that through jailbreak. More accuracy and refinement in how autocorrect works would be welcome, too. However, I don't want to open up iOS 7 and see something completely different from what I'm used to. *That* could just about drive me to Android, lol. The main advantage of iOS to me is that I know it well, and I don't have to spend time figuring out how to do stuff. If iOS changed so much that I was faced with a big learning curve, well, might as well learn a new system while I'm at it.

Very similar desires to what I would want for future ios too.

tjl3
May 2, 2013, 05:55 PM
Android is better, but no one said you couldn't like and/or enjoy or prefer iOS. Ridiculous accusations.

And yet again straw mans and red herrings. People keep saying "all Couch ever replies with is 'this is a straw man and this is a red herring.'" Well, what do you want me to say when it is?

The discussion here is:

iOS 7 could be so much better. Jailbreak community proves it. Apple, for better or worse, won't implement these [really obvious] features, or implements them at a snail's pace. There are people who wish they would give us things more and more quickly. That's the discussion. And when the shakeup happened at Apple, there was a good opportunity and hope that iOS 7 would bring those changes (it still might!), but a recent story points to the overhaul being mostly cosmetic. That's disappointing.

Okay, big whoop if there are people who prefer iOS or think iOS is good enough. Like I said, there are others who don't agree. If that's all we're going to do is point out people who like iOS and people who don't like iOS, what's the point of discussing? Thanks for pointing that out. I knew that already, but all right.

Again... can we talk about iOS 7 and what it might be, could be, should be, would like it to be?

"Android is better," not sure if sarcastic. I think iOS is better. But Android is more powerful, has more features, and is on par with everything iOS can do. Am I wrong? I never said iOS is better is a fact, but it's my opinion.

No where in the article does it mention that the only change is to the UI. In fact, the part of the article that seems to have been missed is:

The article notes that Apple has looked at ideas to implement new panels with swipes from the left and the right of the screen, much like how the Notification Center currently drops from above.



which could mean huge system impacts and hint at new features to iOS 7.

Also, we're really only looking at 1/3 of iOS. Why everyone assumes Ive is the direct head of iOS development is beyond me. I'd say that Craig Federighi was tasked w/ the oversight and Cue was given a very important role as well. Hell, I could be wrong, they could release a rehashed iOS 6 with a new look (yes I'd be pissed). But the rumors aren't even indicating that, I think you kind of drew that conclusion tho.

And w/ respect to the JB community, in the grand scheme of things it is not a stable iOS build. Individually some features are stable. Are we really lead to believe that a company of intelligent software developers are sitting behind their desk, thumbing their noses, thinking, "pft, our customers want this? Well we've got the best sales, lets put in reflective virtual buttons instead because we want to, rawr."

knucklehead
May 2, 2013, 07:29 PM
Very similar desires to what I would want for future ios too.

And yet, I don't think anyone is wondering "What's up with Night Spring?" -- or perhaps worse -- "What's Night Spring up to?"

Why is there such a difference between you two with such similar desires?

onthecouchagain
May 2, 2013, 07:51 PM
And yet, I don't think anyone is wondering "What's up with Night Spring?" -- or perhaps worse -- "What's Night Spring up to?"

Why is there such a difference between you two with such similar desires?

I talk the way I talk. What can I say? Heh.

Again, we can spend time talking about how I should write my OP, or we can actually talk about the article and iOS 7.

Tinmania
May 2, 2013, 09:17 PM
I quite agree that this "Android is better, there is no room for debate" attitude is off-putting, and not conductive to open discussion.
Yikes let me clarify about that phrase I used. I was under the impression that Android being further ahead meant as far as market-share was concerned. I may have bolded the wrong sentence.

I did not mean there is no room for debate about which is better for me vs. someone else. That is subjective.




Michael

Night Spring
May 3, 2013, 08:02 AM
Yikes let me clarify about that phrase I used. I was under the impression that Android being further ahead meant as far as market-share was concerned. I may have bolded the wrong sentence.

I did not mean there is no room for debate about which is better for me vs. someone else. That is subjective.

Oh dear. It never occurred to me that the "getting ahead" could be seen as in reference to market share. I always thought we were talking about "getting ahead" as in adding more features.

Sorry about the misunderstanding, I'm glad we did get it cleared up!

Irishman
May 4, 2013, 09:00 AM
Okay let's make this perfectly clear since this seems to be a point of contention:

Of course there exists people who buy the iPhone because they genuinely want to! Can this red herring be put to rest? Sensitive much?

Can we talk about ios now and what could be ios 7?

It's not a red herring when YOU brought it up that Apple will fool iPhone buyers by luring them in with marketing.

Don't say things you don't mean and you'll get along fine on the internet. Unless your goal with this thread was to get attention, in which case you succeeded.

Words mean things.

----------

Yikes let me clarify about that phrase I used. I was under the impression that Android being further ahead meant as far as market-share was concerned. I may have bolded the wrong sentence.

I did not mean there is no room for debate about which is better for me vs. someone else. That is subjective.




Michael

Yes, Android dominates the free-mobile OS marketshare.

----------

Being a multi-platform user myself, I don't think Couch gets attacked because of WHAT he's trying to point out, just the WAY he goes about doing so.

It's all very over-the-top. And in this particular case, WAY too early to be getting all bent out of shape over a rumor we all should've known was coming given Ive's new role.

Agreed. He's too smart not to know what he's doing. It's the web forum equivalent of link-bait that bloggers and journalists do. A sensational title gets click-throughs.

onthecouchagain
May 4, 2013, 09:14 AM
It's not a red herring when YOU brought it up that Apple will fool iPhone buyers by luring them in with marketing.

Don't say things you don't mean and you'll get along fine on the internet. Unless your goal with this thread was to get attention, in which case you succeeded.

Words mean things.

At no point do I say iOS 7 is disappointing. How would I know that? Please read the OP again for all those saying I'm reacting to something that doesn't exist yet. I'm perfectly aware. This is a rumor's site. Are we not allowed to discuss rumors? Again, I hope these rumors don't pan out and iOS 7 brings more than just a "flatter" design.

Also, to continue on my point earlier, when I say something like "people will be duped by Apple's marketing," do I really have to put a disclaimer every time that I obviously don't mean every single iPhone buyer? C'mon now. How could I (or anyone, for that matter) claim to know the minds of millions of people? That'd be ridiculous.

However, there are some of us who, when we heard 'Jon Ivy is going to overhaul iOS 7" a few months ago, got hopeful. This is the first time we've seen a major shift from within Apple. Forestall got kicked out, Ivy got put in, some big changes would be coming. The big question was, what sort of changes? Can we not have a discussion about a recent article/rumor that might give us a potential answer, and that that answer might dash our excitement and hopes for iOS 7? Can this not be discussed?

People are free to continue with the red herrings or non-sequiturs and straw man arguments if they'd like. Others are interested in discussing the potentials of iOS and Apple allowing it to be realized. Again, look to the jailbreak community. They are figuring it out faster than Apple is willing to. iOS could be so much more.

And it should.


I guess I do have to use disclaimers for some people... =T

Night Spring
May 4, 2013, 09:27 AM
I guess I do have to use disclaimers for some people... =T

Might I point out that it doesn't take a huge effort to put in "disclaimers"?

Instead of saying, "people will be duped by Apple's marketing," just say, "some people will be duped..." Or maybe even "many people will be duped..." Done.

Irishman
May 4, 2013, 09:30 AM
I guess I do have to use disclaimers for some people... =T

Or you could just write what you mean the first time? This is not your first day on the internet. You know enough about the English language to know how words work.

onthecouchagain
May 4, 2013, 10:20 AM
Might I point out that it doesn't take a huge effort to put in "disclaimers"?

Instead of saying, "people will be duped by Apple's marketing," just say, "some people will be duped..." Or maybe even "many people will be duped..." Done.


I don't know how anyone can think I know the minds of all of the millions of iPhone buyers, but fair enough. I will try to be clearer next time.

Night Spring
May 4, 2013, 10:37 AM
I don't know how anyone can think I know the minds of all of the millions of iPhone buyers, but fair enough. I will try to be clearer next time.

Well of course nobody knows the minds of millions of other people, but both the internet and real life are full of stupid people who think they do, or who don't distinguish between their minds and other people's. The disclaimer/clarification is to ensure that you don't get mistaken for one of those stupid people. That way, your thread wouldn't get derailed from its original topic by people jumping up to point out how stupid you are. ;)

onthecouchagain
May 4, 2013, 11:08 AM
Well of course nobody knows the minds of millions of other people, but both the internet and real life are full of stupid people who think they do, or who don't distinguish between their minds and other people's. The disclaimer/clarification is to ensure that you don't get mistaken for one of those stupid people. That way, your thread wouldn't get derailed from its original topic by people jumping up to point out how stupid you are. ;)

You seem to agree it's rather obvious no one can speak for or know the minds of millions of people, yet I have to be the one to cater to their stupidity (as you call it)?

Isn't it a possibility that some people are using red herrings to avoid discussing iOS' shortcomings? Red herrings which I've pointed out which successfully derail the conversation? Now the focus is on semantics instead of the disappointing news that Ivy's hand in revamping iOS is mostly cosmetic.

Successful tactics are successful, I guess.

Night Spring
May 4, 2013, 11:46 AM
You seem to agree it's rather obvious no one can speak for or know the minds of millions of people, yet I have to be the one to cater to their stupidity (as you call it)?

That's not what I said, but if you can't understand my point after rereading my previous post, I'm not sure how I can explain myself any clearer.

Isn't it a possibility that some people are using red herrings to avoid discussing iOS' shortcomings? Red herrings which I've pointed out which successfully derail the conversation? Now the focus is on semantics instead of the disappointing news that Ivy's hand in revamping iOS is mostly cosmetic.

It is true that some people in any thread could at any time try to purposefully derail a topic. I can only speak for myself when I say it's not *my* intention to derail the topic of this thread. However, I find that I don't have much to say about the "news" of Ive's influence or lack thereof on iOS, firstly because there just isn't much detail to go on. And second, as I may have mentioned previously, personally, I wouldn't feel disappointed if Ive's influence is on design only. After all, he's a design guy, that's what he's there for. I assume the guy in charge of iOS coding, whose name I can never remember how to spell, will be responsible for any new features added to iOS.

And even if there is not many new features added to iOS, I personally wouldn't feel disappointed. Oh, I just remembered, I would love it if they fixed the iPad music app, which is pretty much broken -- it doesn't even display the lyrics! How lame is that? :D And in another thread, I noticed you mentioning things like on Android you can do many things with a single tap but on iOS they take multiple taps. Sure, changing things like that would be nice, but those are just tweaks, and not having them isn't causing me to jump to Android at this point.

But I think I'm just the kind of person who gets used to one OS and then doesn't want to change. Case in point, I've been using Windows since 3.1, and while I now have an iMac and a MacBook Air, I mostly stay on Windows in bootcamp. I don't think OS X is worse than Windows, nor do I think Windows is better than OS X, it's just that all the keyboard shortcuts and other ways of doing things in Windows is now part of my muscle memory, and I don't want to bother learning to walk again, so to speak.

Also, following all these threads on whether to go with the HTC One, Galaxy S4, Galaxy Note, or some other phones doesn't make me eager to jump to Android, either. Seems like way too much thought required to pick a phone. With iPhone, there is just one model to pick in any given year. Simple. I like simple. ;)

knucklehead
May 4, 2013, 11:53 AM
Isn't it a possibility that some people are using red herrings to avoid discussing iOS' shortcomings? Red herrings which I've pointed out which successfully derail the conversation? Now the focus is on semantics instead of the disappointing news that Ivy's hand in revamping iOS is mostly cosmetic.


Night Spring beat me to it!

I think most people know what Ive does, and that he would be in charge of the cosmetic change part of the next iOS release. There's nothing to be surprised or disappointed about ...

ijohn.8.80
May 4, 2013, 11:27 PM
Now the focus is on... the disappointing news that Ivy's hand in revamping iOS is mostly cosmetic.

I really don't want to enter the battle arena created here, but, could you substantiate this with a news feed from Apple stating this? I haven't seen any announcements along this line from the company yet.

I also hope it's something more substantial than just UI appearance updates.

Switchback666
May 4, 2013, 11:51 PM
For the love of god make sms like bitesms with quickreplys and quickcompose.

The iGentleman
May 5, 2013, 12:22 AM
same here, i dont think iOS is behind android, and with the new look it may leave android behind. hoping for da best!:)

Changing a look isn't going to do anything to move it ahead.

SlCKB0Y
May 5, 2013, 03:59 AM
Yes, Android dominates the free-mobile OS marketshare.

Let me fix that for you:

Yes, Android dominates the mobile OS marketshare.

----------

Or you could just write what you mean the first time? This is not your first day on the internet. You know enough about the English language to know how words work.

Or you could decide to assess the overall meaning of his statements instead of the literal meaning of each individual word?
:rolleyes:

macrem
May 5, 2013, 04:24 AM
As someone who uses both the latest versions of Android and iOS, it may be an opportunity for Android to catch up to iOS; however, my guess is that Android will keep piling on more features I don't need on a mobile OS that could require more overhead (instead of polishing existing features that are 1/2 baked).

cnev3
May 5, 2013, 06:03 AM
"While the look of the updated system may be surprising to some, iOS 7 is reportedly not more difficult to use than earlier versions of software platform. There is apparently no new learning curve in the same way there was no learning curve when the iPods went color. While iOS 7 does look different, its core apps and system fundamentals (like the Lock and Home screens) mostly operate in a similar fashion to how they do today."

If true, those holding out their breath for big changes to come with iOS 7 (myself included) will likely be disappointed.

Disappointing news.

No learning curve, fundamentals operate the same, but with a different look. How is that bad?

That's exactly how OSX has been for practically the last 2 decades.

If my iMac turned into a Windows 8 experience, i'd promptly list it on eBay.

Same goes for my iPhone and Android.

As far as non aesthetic features go, we can only wait and see what Apple brings to the table.

Irishman
May 5, 2013, 08:39 AM
Let me fix that for you:

Yes, Android dominates the mobile OS marketshare.

Here, let me remove the veil from your eyes. Free Android is soooo compelling that Samsung isn't developing their own mobile OS....oh, wait. Android OS is sooooo compelling that Facebook isn't taking advantage of its openness to prevent Facebook Home users from ever SEEING that UI. Oh wait...


Or you could decide to assess the overall meaning of his statements instead of the literal meaning of each individual word?
:rolleyes:

Based on his overall post history, he hates iOS and, by extension, Apple.

I decided to assess the overall meaning of his statements. Got it?

----------

No learning curve, fundamentals operate the same, but with a different look. How is that bad?

That's exactly how OSX has been for practically the last 2 decades.

If my iMac turned into a Windows 8 experience, i'd promptly list it on eBay.

Same goes for my iPhone and Android.

As far as non aesthetic features go, we can only wait and see what Apple brings to the table.

OSX has been out since September 13th, 2000 with the public beta release, March 24th, 2001 to the general public. More like 13 years.

SlCKB0Y
May 5, 2013, 08:53 AM
Here, let me remove the veil from your eyes. Free Android is soooo compelling that Samsung isn't developing their own mobile OS....oh, wait. Android OS is sooooo compelling that Facebook isn't taking advantage of its openness to prevent Facebook Home users from ever SEEING that UI. Oh wait...


I don't even understand what you mean. If you could explain yourself a little more literately (and is that sarcasm?) it might be helpful. :confused:

LIVEFRMNYC
May 5, 2013, 08:55 AM
I've lost complete interest in iOS. My iPad 2 is now just an alarm clock, and iP4 just a backup phone. I doubt any design change for iOS7 is going to be as drastic as those cool prototype designs all over the web.

I can't imagine what new features Apple will bring to the table. It will most likely be something that already exist on some Android phones. Phone tech has sort of peaked, so I think Apple needs to open iOS up much more in order to really win back or delay those who are moving else where.

An iOS redesign and one or two new features is only asking for plenty of criticism, IMO. I can already invision tons of "What were they thinking?" threads.

onthecouchagain
May 5, 2013, 09:12 AM
No learning curve, fundamentals operate the same, but with a different look. How is that bad?

That's exactly how OSX has been for practically the last 2 decades.

If my iMac turned into a Windows 8 experience, i'd promptly list it on eBay.

Same goes for my iPhone and Android.

As far as non aesthetic features go, we can only wait and see what Apple brings to the table.

Fair point, but OSX is far more developed and flexible than iOS, as it naturally would be since it's a computer operating system that has been out for a long time.

If iOS was anything closer to OSX (ability to make certain apps default, for example) it'd be worlds better, me thinks.

Indeed. I look forward to iOS 7's unveiling despite the rumor.

----------


Based on his overall post history, he hates iOS and, by extension, Apple.



This line of thought is folly. Utter folly. And it's at the expense of iOS users themselves to think this way. It's tempting and easier to point a finger and say "Apple hater!" than to admit the shortcomings of iOS, but this is a mistake.