PDA

View Full Version : Jony Ive's iOS 7 Influence Will Be More Than Skin Deep




MacRumors
May 6, 2013, 04:00 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/06/jony-ives-ios-7-influence-will-be-more-than-skin-deep/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/03/jonathan_ive-250x285.jpgJony Ive has been in the spotlight since late last year when he took over (http://www.macrumors.com/2012/10/29/management-restructuring-at-apple-forstall-and-browett-out-ive-and-others-add-responsibilities/) Apple's Human Design interface team after senior vice president of iOS software Scott Forstall was ousted from Apple.

Ive is said to be heavily involved with iOS 7's rumored redesign (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/01/apple-risking-ios-7-delays-with-jony-ives-design-overhaul/), which will feature a flat design (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/29/details-on-jony-ives-very-very-flat-design-for-ios-7/) that removes many of the skeuomorphic elements featured in iOS 6. Much of the talk of iOS 7 has focused solely on the look of the new operating system, but a former Apple intern points out that Ive's influence will be featured heavily below the surface as well.

Ben Thompson, who currently works for Microsoft's Windows Apps team, was at Apple from June to August 2010. In a post on his blog Stratechery (http://stratechery.com/2013/jony-ive-is-not-a-graphic-designer/), Thompson shares a never before released quote from Ive that highlights his focus on a product's overall aesthetic rather than attributes that can be measured with numbers.But there are a lot of product attributes that don't have those sorts of measures. Product attributes that are more emotive and less tangible. But they're really important. There's a lot of stuff that's really important that you can't distill down to a number.

And I think one of the things with design is that when you look at an object you make many many decisions about it, not consciously, and I think one of the jobs of a designer is that you're very sensitive to trying to understand what goes on between seeing something and filling out your perception of it. You know we all can look at the same object, but we will all perceive it in a very unique way. It means something different to each of us. Part of the job of a designer is to try to understand what happens between physically seeing something and interpreting it.As Thompson points out, Ive is in charge of Apple's Human Interface team rather than the visual design team, an important distinction that implies his role goes much deeper than offering a simple aesthetic overhaul. Design, hardware, and functionality are all inextricably linked in Ive's mind, suggesting that iOS 7's interface changes may be more important than its physical design changes.

Article Link: Jony Ive's iOS 7 Influence Will Be More Than Skin Deep (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/06/jony-ives-ios-7-influence-will-be-more-than-skin-deep/)



Vol7ron
May 6, 2013, 04:04 PM
I'm getting more and more excited to see what is going to be announced at WWDC...Ive has a really good eye at design. Hopefully his visions can be interpreted correctly by the iOS engineers.

bb426
May 6, 2013, 04:04 PM
After reading this article all I can think of is...

Iveception.

:D

alexander25
May 6, 2013, 04:04 PM
another thread where everyone cries that getting rid of skeuomorphism is a bad idea.

those people will be the first to upgrade.

"OMG I DIDN'T THINK I WOULD LIKE IT, BUT THIS IS AMAZING"

theheadguy
May 6, 2013, 04:05 PM
This entire post says a whole lot about nothing.

But there are a lot of product attributes that don't have those sorts of measures. Product attributes that are more emotive and less tangible. But they're really important. There's a lot of stuff that's really important that you can't distill down to a number. And I think one of the things with design is that when you look at an object you make many many decisions about it, not consciously, and I think one of the jobs of a designer is that you're very sensitive to trying to understand what goes on between seeing something and filling out your perception of it. You know we all can look at the same object, but we will all perceive it in a very unique way. It means something different to each of us. Part of the job of a designer is to try to understand what happens between physically seeing something and interpreting it.

Unimpressive. Quit talking and get back to moving some product forward.

D-a-a-n
May 6, 2013, 04:07 PM
Oh yeah, the hype machine is slowly getting up to speed. :)

brayhite
May 6, 2013, 04:08 PM
scott forstall was great at this already. skeuomorphism brought out a lot of emotion from iphone users.

aristotle
May 6, 2013, 04:08 PM
I'm getting more and more excited to see what is going to be announced at WWDC...Ive has a really good eye at hardware design. Hopefully his visions can be interpreted correctly by the iOS engineers.
I don't have the same level of confidence as you do. I fear the old adage, "Jack of all trades, master of none". If he spreads himself too thin, that could spell trouble for both the software and hardware.

There are some nice designs from other OEMs as well but the software they run (windows or android) is what brings down their experience. I have also experienced some really bad software from hardware OEMs like HP for example.

I am actually worried about the future of iOS. I hope that I am proven wrong but I'm not sure if Ive is the "vision" guy like Jobs was.

Millah
May 6, 2013, 04:11 PM
Anyone who understands how Jony views design would have already known this. So I know Jony was looking beyond visual aesthetic.

The only concern I have is time. He's only been in charge since late last year. To make significant overhauls/reimaginings of the operating system, its going to take more time than that. I think they'll phase these things out slowly. The visual design might be high on Jonys bucket list, as he probably finds the current visuals to be the most embarassing.

baryon
May 6, 2013, 04:12 PM
I trust Ive and I'm really excited about anything he does. The first thing you can definitely say about almost all Apple products is that they look, feel and work in a very pleasant way. There's of course what he says about what's beyond numbers and what you can describe with words. The iPhone is a flat rectangle with rounded corners, and so is the Samsung Galaxy S4. But for some reason - which one cannot describe in an ad and can't really explain in a simple way - the Samsung just seems like a boring machine while the iPhone has "something about it" that's just positive. It's not one thing, it's the way all the things work together and create that effect. It's THAT effect that most companies simply don't get (and Samsung never got). Some companies/people have it, some don't.

Millah
May 6, 2013, 04:15 PM
I am actually worried about the future of iOS. I hope that I am proven wrong but I'm not sure if Ive is the "vision" guy like Jobs was.

We don't know that. We do know, however, that Ive is certainly the "taste" guy like Jobs was. No one else there has better taste than Jony. And Steve said many times himself that his success simply depended on "good taste."

Jony isn't going to be the visionary etc. He doesn't have to be. He simply needs to be the one with good taste, that rejects bad design, and further pursues good ideas.

Internaut
May 6, 2013, 04:15 PM
Apple has long had a tendency with iOS to let the hard numbers (processor, processor performance and so on) take a back seat to what you can do with the device. The end result? Devices that don't have the highest performing components but which often outperform those that do.

It's a commendable approach, but one which often goes against the grain of how many users are conditioned to think these days. We see the same issue in digital photography, where there's a tendency to over measure the gear.

Kilamite
May 6, 2013, 04:19 PM
I think there's so much hype about iOS 7 being radically different, but from iOS 1 to 6, it's pretty much been the same thing.

Unless it has a much improved home screen, rather than just grid of icons, then the changes won't really matter that much. 3rd party applications won't be affected, and other than Phone, Mail, Safari and Messages, I don't use any of the default applications as part of my daily workflow.

phillipduran
May 6, 2013, 04:19 PM
This entire post says a whole lot about nothing.



Unimpressive. Quit talking and get back to moving some product forward.

You would fit in well at Microsoft or RIM/Blackberry. No so much at Apple.

It's that space that you and other people such as Steve Ballmer refer to as "nothing" that seems to be running circles around the competition. It's that nothingness that has been referred to as the magic in the devices that gets people in lines waiting to get their hands on a new iDevice.

I believe you though. There is nothing here for you.

ronm99
May 6, 2013, 04:21 PM
This seems like just speculation from someone who doesn't know any more about iOS7 than you or I do. The title of this article is very misleading.

The features of iOS7 were probably largely in stone by the time the transition from Scott Forstall was made, so there is a limit as to how much influence Jonny will be able to have on iOS7. I suspect that Jonny will have a bigger influence on iOS8.

KieranDotW
May 6, 2013, 04:22 PM
scott forstall was great at this already. skeuomorphism brought out a lot of emotion from iphone users.

By "a lot of emotion" did you mean "I cry everytime I look at the awful iPad contacts app"?

milo
May 6, 2013, 04:22 PM
Quit talking and get back to...

That would make a lot more sense if this quote wasn't from a few years ago.

york2600
May 6, 2013, 04:30 PM
scott forstall was great at this already. skeuomorphism brought out a lot of emotion from iphone users.

The problem with the skeuomorphism is that it works great when you've used the traditional non-electronic forms that are being emulated. You have entire generations though that have never used these analog counterparts, and to them these UIs make no sense. Reel to reel in the Podcast app being a great example. Those haven't been used for 30 years so a HUGE portion of the user base isn't making that connection. It was a cute thing back in the 80s and 90s to make an analog connection to the digital world, but the need for that passed a long time ago. It's time to just make a killer UI and I'm glad to see Apple moving in that direction.

needfx
May 6, 2013, 04:31 PM
Yo jondogg, pimp my iOS would ya?

SockRolid
May 6, 2013, 04:37 PM
Design, hardware, and functionality are all inextricably linked in Ive's mind, suggesting that iOS 7's interface changes may be more important than its physical design changes.

They're all inextricably linked together in the "user experience."
That's why Apple needs to control it all. Boom.

Stridder44
May 6, 2013, 04:42 PM
scott forstall was great at this already. skeuomorphism brought out a lot of emotion from iphone users.

That's incredibly subjective. Forstall's idea of design was great, but he let things stagnate for WAY too long

haydn!
May 6, 2013, 04:43 PM
Whilst I share some of the concerns about time, I think the fact Ive only took over six or seven months ago, is not such a big problem.

Who really knows how long he's been cooking up ideas in his studio? It could have been those 'napkin drawings' that won him the job. For all we know, he may have already influenced some aspects of iOS design in the past, but due to Forstall being the type of person to take all the credit and none of the blame, it passed under the radar.

maxosx
May 6, 2013, 04:48 PM
After reading this article all I can think of is...



All the "talk" I've been witnessing. From Cook, outsides sources, et al. All the "Surprises in store for us"

Enough of this gushing over the golden boy, lavishing awards on him etc, just get to work and show us something in the calendar year 2013.

Awards? Sure I respect he earned and deserves them, but is that all Apple has to fill the rumor space with?

The self serving praise of the almighty "Apple" is beginning to wear thin.

DocNYz
May 6, 2013, 05:23 PM
I wonder how many autocorrect "I've"s had to be retyped as "Ive" in these comments ...

Bobby Corwen
May 6, 2013, 05:34 PM
I think the most important thing is touch response time and UI snappiness.

It should always be a priority.

Also brightness and wifi toggle in an even more accesible way. (should have been on the pull-down notification center like was rumored)

Maybe some added efficiency in menus and random places.

Skeumorphism never bothered me as long it was married with maximum practicality.

It was more important in the past than now though, since the concept of iOS and Apple has matured past trying to sell us on extra detailed gimmicks. We shouldnt take away from the idea that skeumorphism is part of the sales image that tells us that what is under the hood is well designed without us having to realize it on our own. It says: a lot of work went into this to make it user friendly. It communicated something. Now, we dont need that communicated anymore, but it was never a terrible thing.

avanpelt
May 6, 2013, 05:37 PM
MR is now quoting posts from the blog of a guy who worked at Apple for TWO MONTHS THREE YEARS AGO?! Okay, I'm as excited about the potential for a redesign with iOS 7 as everybody else, but this story seems a little "out there" if you ask me. 20 bucks says this guy has never even been in the same room as Jony Ive.

mytakeontech
May 6, 2013, 05:45 PM
Not to be pessimistic but rather realistic, I don't think there are going be any significant changes to iOS 7 other than new skin (At least in the beginning). To overhaul the OS need hell lot of time and I don't think Ive had enough time. If he really wows us with iOS7 then kudos to him but my realistic expectation is some minor tweaks here and there + new skin and I think that is going to disappoint a lot of Apple fanboys.

Saladinos
May 6, 2013, 05:47 PM
Interesting.

Contrast this to Google's design process, which is all about numbers and statistics.

From a former employee (http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html):

Yes, it’s true that a team at Google couldn’t decide between two blues, so they’re testing 41 shades between each blue to see which one performs better. I had a recent debate over whether a border should be 3, 4 or 5 pixels wide, and was asked to prove my case. I can’t operate in an environment like that.
...
I won’t miss a design philosophy that lives or dies strictly by the sword of data.

tann
May 6, 2013, 05:55 PM
I'm probably too excited for WWDC now. Hopefully I won't be let down!

aerok
May 6, 2013, 05:56 PM
I trust Ive and I'm really excited about anything he does. The first thing you can definitely say about almost all Apple products is that they look, feel and work in a very pleasant way. There's of course what he says about what's beyond numbers and what you can describe with words. The iPhone is a flat rectangle with rounded corners, and so is the Samsung Galaxy S4. But for some reason - which one cannot describe in an ad and can't really explain in a simple way - the Samsung just seems like a boring machine while the iPhone has "something about it" that's just positive. It's not one thing, it's the way all the things work together and create that effect. It's THAT effect that most companies simply don't get (and Samsung never got). Some companies/people have it, some don't.

That is very subjective, I do not fel anything special when I see an iPhone or a Samsung phone. I understand that a lot of people feel that way when seeing an iPhone but same can be said for the Samsung. To say that some company have it and other don't is not a fact but an opinion.

Shrink
May 6, 2013, 06:13 PM
That is very subjective, I do not fel anything special when I see an iPhone or a Samsung phone. I understand that a lot of people feel that way when seeing an iPhone but same can be said for the Samsung. To say that some company have it and other don't is not a fact but an opinion.

Good point.

The problem here is that many (most? all but three?) cannot distinguish between fact and opinion. It seems to be a very complicated concept to grasp.:rolleyes:

Rogifan
May 6, 2013, 06:31 PM
This recent job posting sounds interesting:

https://jobs.apple.com/us/search?#specs&t=1&so=&j=DES&lo=0*USA&pN=2&openJobId=26917597

Interface Designer

Job Number: 26917597 Santa Clara Valley, California, United States
Posted: Apr. 5, 2013 Weekly Hours: 40.00
Job Summary

The Human Interface Device Prototyping group at Apple is looking for an Interface Designer. We’re a small, unique group at Apple composed of hybrid designers / engineers. We work on the long-term vision for human interface technologies and user experience across all of Apple’s products.

Key Qualifications

Required Skills
Sketching / storyboarding of UIs
Visual design using Photoshop, Illustrator, or similar tools
Designing for touch or mobile interfaces such as iPhone and iPad
Creating interactive prototypes using Flash, Processing,
OpenFrameworks, Quartz Composer, or similar tools
Motion graphics, 3D graphics, special effects, or animation
Description

Invent We come up with novel ideas for how new hardware technologies can improve the user experience. You should have a passion for building new things and running with ideas.

Design
You should have a proficiency in illustration, an understanding of user interface principles, a sensitivity to typography and color, a general awareness of materials textures, and a practical grasp of physics and animation.

Prototype
We build working, interactive prototypes to test, explain, and explore ideas. Our process includes sketching, pixelperfect mockups, animations, code, electronics, and models. You should be able to explore ideas at many different levels of fidelity, and be interested in making interactive prototypes.

Collaborate
We work with people all over Apple: UI designers, industrial designers, engineers, marketing, and executives. You should be comfortable working in a studio environment and participating in individual and group critiques.

Present
A big part of what we do is demonstrate our prototypes and explain our designs. You should be comfortable speaking to your work in front of small and large groups.

theheadguy
May 6, 2013, 06:46 PM
You would fit in well at Microsoft or RIM/Blackberry. No so much at Apple.

It's that space that you and other people such as Steve Ballmer refer to as "nothing" that seems to be running circles around the competition. It's that nothingness that has been referred to as the magic in the devices that gets people in lines waiting to get their hands on a new iDevice.

You make a great armchair recruiter. Luckily this is a "news and rumors" site whose membership does not require that I see Ive as the deity that so many others do. I'm allowed to be unimpressed. The iPhone 5 gave us an iPhone that was a little larger. Maybe you were in line for hours dying to get your hands on the "magic" of it, but I wasn't. Deal with it.

teknikal90
May 6, 2013, 06:59 PM
You would fit in well at Microsoft or RIM/Blackberry. No so much at Apple.

It's that space that you and other people such as Steve Ballmer refer to as "nothing" that seems to be running circles around the competition. It's that nothingness that has been referred to as the magic in the devices that gets people in lines waiting to get their hands on a new iDevice.

I believe you though. There is nothing here for you.

have you worked at apple? or microsoft or RIM?

IJ Reilly
May 6, 2013, 06:59 PM
Design isn't simply about how things look. What a revelation. I hope and trust Ive has deeper insights into design than are found in this quote.

Rumple
May 6, 2013, 07:36 PM
Good.

PrometheusGeek
May 6, 2013, 07:44 PM
Some one at apple should pick up a samsung device. I bet they would be surprised not its not built out of aircraft quality aluminum nor does it have old tech resold as new. But the damn things let you do what you want with them. I am an apple fanboy at heart, with that being said if apple continues to lag behind the competition im going else where with my $. Hats of to Ive if he can change my mind.

*SIGH*

Let me back your quote up a few decades, and put it in that context... "Someone at Apple should pick up a Dell computer. I bet they would be surprised its not molded out of a single slab of aircraft quality aluminum. But the damn thing can be opened up and you can put whatever components you want to inside, and it runs Windows and lets you do what you want with it. I'm an apple fanboy at heart, but if Apple continues to lag behind the competition (Dell, Acer, Gateway, HP), I'm going elsewhere with my $. Hats off to Jobs if he can change my mind."

Know what? Jobs didn't give a crap then, and I seriously doubt that Ives does now.

You do realize, don't you, that for decades now PC owners have been saying the same thing about Macs? Too expensive. Too many high-end materials. Too proprietary. Too restrictive and not "open" enough. All of which means that they're "lagging behind the competition"... Look - this is what Apple does. It's what they are. Here's the thing you need to hammer into your skull: They aren't nearly as concerned with "lagging behind" as they are with realizing the products they envision. That's what makes them unique and special.

I doubt that you're really "an apple fanboy at heart". If you were, you'd know that this has always been Apple's MO with all of their products. They control hardware and software for an end-to-end user experience that THEY define according to their own set of values. They design with high quality materials, and spend lots of cash and time on the look and feel itself. They try to make their products optimally usable and productive, without allowing so much user-customization ("letting the damn thing do whatever you want it to") that it degrades performance and stability. The opposite model is what the PC camp (vs the Mac camp) has always stood for. Many disparate manufacturers instead of a proprietary system, cheaper materials and designs for lower cost systems, user customizable to appeal to a larger market, etc..., etc... This is what has always distinguished PCs from Macs. iPods from myriad other MP3 players. Now, iPhones from Android phones. Those other camps are more about prioritizing sales and broader markets over actual products.

Apple doesn't do that. They leave it to the other model - in this case the Android model. Apple is more about the product itself first, and they're willing and prepared to accept a smaller market share in order to guarantee the product they want to produce. Save for when they got off track under John Scully (without Jobs), it's always been that way, and hopefully it always will be. The minute they change, use cheaper materials and designs, stop being proprietary, and let users decide how things work, they become the next Dell and HP. They are trying to preserve the Steve Jobs mantra - "People don't know what they want until we show it to them."

That said, lots of people value having control over their fonts and interfaces over the build-quality, etc... They like the PC/Android model over the Mac/iPhone model. That's fine. They have many products to choose from. They just shouldn't expect Apple to change their foundational model to become like all the rest.

Rogifan
May 6, 2013, 07:55 PM
Design isn't simply about how things look. What a revelation. I hope and trust Ive has deeper insights into design than are found in this quote.

Well a lot of people seem to think that's all it's about.

whocaresit
May 6, 2013, 08:12 PM
I'm really worried Ivy is going to take the 'soul' out of the iOS and make it into a cold-hearted boring lifeless drab OS. :o
I can't even have a restful night's sleep without tossing and turning any more :(

charlituna
May 6, 2013, 08:13 PM
Some one at apple should pick up a samsung device. I bet they would be surprised not its not built out of aircraft quality aluminum nor does it have old tech resold as new. But the damn things let you do what you want with them. I am an apple fanboy at heart, with that being said if apple continues to lag behind the competition im going else where with my $. Hats of to Ive if he can change my mind.

This view is about 5% of iphone users, Apple designs for the 95%.

You want to do what you want, go buy an Android. Or even better, design your own phone and OS for it.

b0fh
May 6, 2013, 08:14 PM
Interesting.

Contrast this to Google's design process, which is all about numbers and statistics.

From a former employee (http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html):

Uhh, you do realize that when Steve Jobs was coming out with the NeXT cube, he spent a couple of months looking at hundreds of shades of *BLACK* to find that one shade of black, right?

PrometheusGeek
May 6, 2013, 08:18 PM
Uhh, you do realize that when Steve Jobs was coming out with the NeXT cube, he spent a couple of months looking at hundreds of shades of *BLACK* to find that one shade of black, right?

And designed custom (and VERY expensive) molds so that the cube housing would be seamless and one-piece, not glued together like every other case...:cool:

Rogifan
May 6, 2013, 08:32 PM
I'm really worried Ivy is going to take the 'soul' out of the iOS and make it into a cold-hearted boring lifeless drab OS. :o
I can't even have a restful night's sleep without tossing and turning any more :(

WWDC will mark the end of Apple as we know it. :( Unless Scott Skeuomorphic Forstall comes back to save the day. :eek:

sjwr
May 6, 2013, 08:42 PM
Every quote scares me little more. Anyone really complaining IOS too skeuomorphic, too..eh...thick? Hope not tying to convert few Microsoft users - Apple should be patient and wait for Microsoft to help with that.

PJMAN2952
May 6, 2013, 08:54 PM
If iOS 7 isn't different this time, I'll get the Galaxy S4 then. It's that simple. So far I want the Galaxy S4.

winston1236
May 6, 2013, 08:55 PM
This entire post says a whole lot about nothing.



Unimpressive. Quit talking and get back to moving some product forward.

Yea, its time to replace Ive.

Jamesesesesess
May 6, 2013, 09:04 PM
I hope the redesign will appear to be more than a Cydia skin. iOS 7 needs to be totally fresh.

jonnysods
May 6, 2013, 09:11 PM
I can't wait to read this story again in a couple more days, but slightly different than the one before.

/V\acpower
May 6, 2013, 09:21 PM
This entire post says a whole lot about nothing.



Unimpressive. Quit talking and get back to moving some product forward.

Actually Ive is quite right. Lots of things that matter aren't really translatable into a number. Apple difference since Jobs comeback is really caring about all those things while most of tech companies stopped caring (mostly because of peoples that think like you and consider those things as irrelevant and purely superficials when actually they happen to matter a lot for most in the perception they have of the products around us)

How much is it worth to have a product that is a bit simpler to use, or a UI that is clearer. The same way, how much it is worth to have nice colors on the wall of your appartment, having a kitchen that is a bit more functionnal, having a sofa that is a bit more comfortable. You can't put a number on those things, but they still matter a great deal in the end.

iMikeT
May 6, 2013, 09:46 PM
Can't wait!

Fukui
May 6, 2013, 10:01 PM
Design, hardware, and functionality are all inextricably linked in Ive's mind...

It's not just in Ive's mind, it's the truth.

Ddyracer
May 6, 2013, 10:04 PM
This recent job posting sounds interesting:

https://jobs.apple.com/us/search?#specs&t=1&so=&j=DES&lo=0*USA&pN=2&openJobId=26917597

Interface Designer

Job Number: 26917597 Santa Clara Valley, California, United States
Posted: Apr. 5, 2013 Weekly Hours: 40.00
Job Summary

The Human Interface Device Prototyping group at Apple is looking for an Interface Designer. We’re a small, unique group at Apple composed of hybrid designers / engineers. We work on the long-term vision for human interface technologies and user experience across all of Apple’s products.

Key Qualifications

Required Skills
Sketching / storyboarding of UIs
Visual design using Photoshop, Illustrator, or similar tools
Designing for touch or mobile interfaces such as iPhone and iPad
Creating interactive prototypes using Flash, Processing,
OpenFrameworks, Quartz Composer, or similar tools
Motion graphics, 3D graphics, special effects, or animation
Description

Invent We come up with novel ideas for how new hardware technologies can improve the user experience. You should have a passion for building new things and running with ideas.

Design
You should have a proficiency in illustration, an understanding of user interface principles, a sensitivity to typography and color, a general awareness of materials textures, and a practical grasp of physics and animation.

Prototype
We build working, interactive prototypes to test, explain, and explore ideas. Our process includes sketching, pixelperfect mockups, animations, code, electronics, and models. You should be able to explore ideas at many different levels of fidelity, and be interested in making interactive prototypes.

Collaborate
We work with people all over Apple: UI designers, industrial designers, engineers, marketing, and executives. You should be comfortable working in a studio environment and participating in individual and group critiques.

Present
A big part of what we do is demonstrate our prototypes and explain our designs. You should be comfortable speaking to your work in front of small and large groups.

What i find also interesting is job for iWork UI. Could mean a design change, not visually perhaps but something.

chirpie
May 6, 2013, 10:16 PM
You make a great armchair recruiter. Luckily this is a "news and rumors" site whose membership does not require that I see Ive as the deity that so many others do. I'm allowed to be unimpressed. The iPhone 5 gave us an iPhone that was a little larger. Maybe you were in line for hours dying to get your hands on the "magic" of it, but I wasn't. Deal with it.

(grumble)

Millah
May 6, 2013, 10:38 PM
I'm allowed to be unimpressed. The iPhone 5 gave us an iPhone that was a little larger. Maybe you were in line for hours dying to get your hands on the "magic" of it, but I wasn't. Deal with it.

It also gave us an aluminum machined enclosure that involves some of the most advanced machining and assembly of any product in the world. Chamfered edges cut with crystalline diamonds, pigmented glass inlays precision matched to each individual enclosure with micron-level tolerances, an anodizing process that would stump even the most experienced finishing houses, and an overall fit/finish that is simply unheard of in consumer products. All while manufacturing at a scale of 100s of millions, which has never been done before on an assembly process involving such precise tolerances.

Now, some of us appreciate industrial design, and are absolutely blown away by those kinds of details and product quality. And then there's people like you who don't, and think the 5 was nothing but a "little larger." But don't come in a discussion about design and act like your opinion matters.

I wonder why so many designers look up to Jony Ive? Hmm...maybe he's done a little more than you have in this world ;)

theheadguy
May 6, 2013, 10:48 PM
It also gave us an aluminum machined enclosure that involves some of the most advanced machining and assembly of any product in the world. Chamfered edges cut with crystalline diamonds, pigmented glass inlays precision matched to each individual enclosure with micron-level tolerances, an anodizing process that would stump even the most experienced finishing houses, and an overall fit/finish that is simply unheard of in consumer products. All while manufacturing at a scale of 100s of millions, which has never been done before on an assembly process involving such precise tolerances. Now, some of us appreciate industrial design, and are absolutely blown away by those kinds of details and product quality. And then there's people like you who don't, and think the 5 was nothing but a "little larger." But don't come in a discussion about design and act like your opinion matters. I wonder why so many designers look up to Jony Ive? Hmm...maybe he's done a little more than you have in this world ;)
But, I thought my 4S had chamfered edges!

http://i.imgur.com/eR80KrW.gif

inselstudent
May 7, 2013, 01:55 AM
Did anybody else have the urge to try for a British accent when reading those quotes?

baryon
May 7, 2013, 02:20 AM
That is very subjective, I do not fel anything special when I see an iPhone or a Samsung phone. I understand that a lot of people feel that way when seeing an iPhone but same can be said for the Samsung. To say that some company have it and other don't is not a fact but an opinion.

No, it's not an objective fact, it's something personal indeed. But I can say I'm pulled to one design and not the other.

numlock
May 7, 2013, 03:19 AM
It also gave us an aluminum machined enclosure that involves some of the most advanced machining and assembly of any product in the world. Chamfered edges cut with crystalline diamonds, pigmented glass inlays precision matched to each individual enclosure with micron-level tolerances, an anodizing process that would stump even the most experienced finishing houses, and an overall fit/finish that is simply unheard of in consumer products. All while manufacturing at a scale of 100s of millions, which has never been done before on an assembly process involving such precise tolerances.

Now, some of us appreciate industrial design, and are absolutely blown away by those kinds of details and product quality. And then there's people like you who don't, and think the 5 was nothing but a "little larger." But don't come in a discussion about design and act like your opinion matters.

I wonder why so many designers look up to Jony Ive? Hmm...maybe he's done a little more than you have in this world ;)

what kind of nonsense is that last line supposed to be? its got a smiley but jeez

obviously you are the at the opposite end to me and enjoy these boring monotone "porn" videos ive releases with most new products whether it be the scratch magnet or the deceptively thick imac.

its the same with everything with ive. if there is something to be praised some think its all due to him but when the limitations and flaws are pointed out hes in the clear.

there are plenty of valid criticisms of the design and usability of apples products but keep your head in the sand

vvebsta
May 7, 2013, 03:55 AM
ive trusted what ive done since ive taken over. ive got to trust that ive gots what it takes.

hint: apostrophes and capitalizations are recommended :D

locust76
May 7, 2013, 04:23 AM
After reading this article all I can think of is...

Iveception.

:D

After reading this article all I can think of is...

HIvemind.

:D

the8thark
May 7, 2013, 05:29 AM
Good point.

The problem here is that many (most? all but three?) cannot distinguish between fact and opinion. It seems to be a very complicated concept to grasp.:rolleyes:
This is a very good point. A lot of rumour articles are opinion but they article author wants us to believe it's fact. It is very complicated indeed. :confused:

cambox
May 7, 2013, 05:46 AM
This seems like just speculation from someone who doesn't know any more about iOS7 than you or I do. The title of this article is very misleading.

The features of iOS7 were probably largely in stone by the time the transition from Scott Forstall was made, so there is a limit as to how much influence Jonny will be able to have on iOS7. I suspect that Jonny will have a bigger influence on iOS8.

Apple may use your quote as that's exactly what they want to hear.. It's ok as if its not good this time it will be fine on iOS8 and if not im sure it will be by iOS10!

Wake up and smell the coffee, Apple are no longer the company we all loved years ago, they are making mistake after mistake recently and we all know why.

iGrip
May 7, 2013, 06:31 AM
It's not one thing, it's the way all the things work together and create that effect. It's THAT effect that most companies simply don't get (and Samsung never got). Some companies/people have it, some don't.

"THAT effect" is called brilliant marketing.

z3r0
May 7, 2013, 06:35 AM
I don't have the same level of confidence as you do. I fear the old adage, "Jack of all trades, master of none".

Polymath
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath

Da Vinci comes to mind ;)

iGrip
May 7, 2013, 06:46 AM
Apple is more about the product itself first, and they're willing and prepared to accept a smaller market share in order to guarantee the product they want to produce.

Apple is, and always has been all about maximizing total profits. In this regard, they are no different from any other company, In this regard, they are just like Monsanto or Exxon.

The means to that end is to produce produce the products that they feel will accomplish that goal. The product that they want to produce is the product that will maximize total profits.

They have chosen a niche that they feel will accomplish that goal. They produce products within that niche.

If they thought that a different sort of product would allow them to produce greater total profits, they would produce other products.

Apple is not some sort of clubhouse for producing the products that they want to produce. They are not some sort of public charity that helps the public by producing certain products.

They are a business. They take money out of the pockets of the public and put that money into the pockets of the Hedge Funds. That is job number one. And job number two. And job number three.

They are not a charitable organization. They exist to maximize total profits.

szw-mapple fan
May 7, 2013, 07:54 AM
Comment Deleted

KdParker
May 7, 2013, 08:19 AM
The problem with the skeuomorphism is that it works great when you've used the traditional non-electronic forms that are being emulated. You have entire generations though that have never used these analog counterparts, and to them these UIs make no sense. Reel to reel in the Podcast app being a great example. Those haven't been used for 30 years so a HUGE portion of the user base isn't making that connection. It was a cute thing back in the 80s and 90s to make an analog connection to the digital world, but the need for that passed a long time ago. It's time to just make a killer UI and I'm glad to see Apple moving in that direction.

Couldn't agree more. This is always been the problem I have had with skeuomorphism. I always felt that it was way past due to move on, but I thought a gradual changes would be better than one major overhaul. Etiherway, it will be interesting to see what they come up with.

Imhotep397
May 7, 2013, 08:36 AM
Skeuomorphic UI elements have been mostly GAR-BOZH. The bookshelf UI and the tweed like background for alerts were the only skeumorphic UI elements that didn't cheapen the look of the OS by making it look like a bunch of disparate components with the local bizarre style color treatment.

The whole skuemorphism path Apple had been going down made me recall the disastrous MS Word 2007 on Windows look...powder blue metal GAR-BOZH. Can't wait for iOS7!

Saladinos
May 7, 2013, 09:08 AM
Uhh, you do realize that when Steve Jobs was coming out with the NeXT cube, he spent a couple of months looking at hundreds of shades of *BLACK* to find that one shade of black, right?

There's a difference between being picky and a whole design philosophy based on number-crunching.

If Steve Jobs had released hundreds of different NeXT cubes with slightly different shades of black to see which one sells better, and then taken that philosophy to every design decision, then you could say something.

I painted a room in the house recently. Must have looked at hundreds of different shades of blue. It's pretty normal.

There is a huge difference in how designers in both companies approach their work; and there are some large differences in the results.

subsonix
May 7, 2013, 09:20 AM
Interesting.

Contrast this to Google's design process, which is all about numbers and statistics.

From a former employee (http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html):

It's hard to believe it's helping them much given the current state of gmail.

notjustjay
May 7, 2013, 09:21 AM
They have chosen a niche that they feel will accomplish that goal. They produce products within that niche.

If they thought that a different sort of product would allow them to produce greater total profits, they would produce other products.



And, of course, this is exactly what they have done. They started as a computer company, but when the iPod started taking off, they ran with that. iPod sales led to media and app sales. Then they discovered that a phone would be a huge seller too. And now the tablet.

Apple has realized that smaller, relatively inexpensive consumer gadgets produce much better profits than large, expensive computers. So that is what they build.

As to this whole iOS 7 debate, I don't care specifically how it looks as long as it adheres to the basic tenet that won me over to Apple in the first place: that of "It Just Works". I simply want a device that does what I expect it to. Touch screens that respond immediately when I tap, not a split-second later. Network connections that work, reliably and always. Functions that are obvious and easy to find.

gnasher729
May 7, 2013, 09:42 AM
scott forstall was great at this already. skeuomorphism brought out a lot of emotion from iphone users.

Emotion: Yes. But mostly :mad: and :eek: and not :D

E.Lizardo
May 7, 2013, 09:49 AM
This entire post says a whole lot about nothing.



Unimpressive. Quit talking and get back to moving some product forward.

Looks like that quote was from two years ago,according to the article.

----------

You would fit in well at Microsoft or RIM/Blackberry. No so much at Apple.

It's that space that you and other people such as Steve Ballmer refer to as "nothing" that seems to be running circles around the competition. It's that nothingness that has been referred to as the magic in the devices that gets people in lines waiting to get their hands on a new iDevice.

I believe you though. There is nothing here for you.

You sir are brilliant.

Blueflame1138
May 7, 2013, 09:51 AM
It always strikes me as odd when the comments start showing up with the word "hype" in them in relation to Apple products.

The only people hyping up iOS7 are the pundits, the rumour mongers, the whiners and the moaners. In other words, me, you (the dog named "Boo") and pretty much the rest of the worlds tech media.

It seems that people conveniently forget that Apple has said bugger all about what may be coming up at WWDC, apart from there will be something about iOS7 and OS X.
That's it! And it's genius! Why "hype" something yourself when staying silent forces the rest of the world to do it for you?

Everything else that has been said is by those who, either, should know better or know even less!

You gotta love it!

E.Lizardo
May 7, 2013, 09:57 AM
have you worked at apple? or microsoft or RIM?

He didn't have to.Just listen to their public statements.

The Deepness
May 7, 2013, 10:05 AM
*SIGH*

Let me back your quote up a few decades, and put it in that context... "Someone at Apple should pick up a Dell computer. I bet they would be surprised its not molded out of a single slab of aircraft quality aluminum. But the damn thing can be opened up and you can put whatever components you want to inside, and it runs Windows and lets you do what you want with it. I'm an apple fanboy at heart, but if Apple continues to lag behind the competition (Dell, Acer, Gateway, HP), I'm going elsewhere with my $. Hats off to Jobs if he can change my mind."

Know what? Jobs didn't give a crap then, and I seriously doubt that Ives does now.

You do realize, don't you, that for decades now PC owners have been saying the same thing about Macs? Too expensive. Too many high-end materials. Too proprietary. Too restrictive and not "open" enough. All of which means that they're "lagging behind the competition"... Look - this is what Apple does. It's what they are. Here's the thing you need to hammer into your skull: They aren't nearly as concerned with "lagging behind" as they are with realizing the products they envision. That's what makes them unique and special.

I doubt that you're really "an apple fanboy at heart". If you were, you'd know that this has always been Apple's MO with all of their products. They control hardware and software for an end-to-end user experience that THEY define according to their own set of values. They design with high quality materials, and spend lots of cash and time on the look and feel itself. They try to make their products optimally usable and productive, without allowing so much user-customization ("letting the damn thing do whatever you want it to") that it degrades performance and stability. The opposite model is what the PC camp (vs the Mac camp) has always stood for. Many disparate manufacturers instead of a proprietary system, cheaper materials and designs for lower cost systems, user customizable to appeal to a larger market, etc..., etc... This is what has always distinguished PCs from Macs. iPods from myriad other MP3 players. Now, iPhones from Android phones. Those other camps are more about prioritizing sales and broader markets over actual products.

Apple doesn't do that. They leave it to the other model - in this case the Android model. Apple is more about the product itself first, and they're willing and prepared to accept a smaller market share in order to guarantee the product they want to produce. Save for when they got off track under John Scully (without Jobs), it's always been that way, and hopefully it always will be. The minute they change, use cheaper materials and designs, stop being proprietary, and let users decide how things work, they become the next Dell and HP. They are trying to preserve the Steve Jobs mantra - "People don't know what they want until we show it to them."

That said, lots of people value having control over their fonts and interfaces over the build-quality, etc... They like the PC/Android model over the Mac/iPhone model. That's fine. They have many products to choose from. They just shouldn't expect Apple to change their foundational model to become like all the rest.

Perfectly said!

IJ Reilly
May 7, 2013, 10:09 AM
It always strikes me as odd when the comments start showing up with the word "hype" in them in relation to Apple products.

The only people hyping up iOS7 are the pundits, the rumour mongers, the whiners and the moaners. In other words, me, you (the dog named "Boo") and pretty much the rest of the worlds tech media.

It seems that people conveniently forget that Apple has said bugger all about what may be coming up at WWDC, apart from there will be something about iOS7 and OS X.
That's it! And it's genius! Why "hype" something yourself when staying silent forces the rest of the world to do it for you?

Everything else that has been said is by those who, either, should know better or know even less!

You gotta love it!

You mean the tech media maybe should start using the dictionaries on their word processors? Or maybe even a thesaurus? Perish the thought. Caring about what words actually mean, let alone expressing concepts accurately, is now a small minority concern, even among journalists. Among the general public, it doesn't even register.

The Deepness
May 7, 2013, 10:18 AM
You mean the tech media maybe should start using the dictionaries on their word processors? Or maybe even a thesaurus? Perish the thought. Caring about what words actually mean, let alone expressing concepts accurately, is now a small minority concern, even among journalists. Among the general public, it doesn't even register.

Frighteningly sad, but true.

theluggage
May 7, 2013, 10:19 AM
The problem with the skeuomorphism is that it works great when you've used the traditional non-electronic forms that are being emulated.


One problem with modern UIs is not skeuomorphism per se but the lack of consistency between applications - when GUIs first appeared, we went from a situation where every application had its own unique system of menus and commands (which some software houses tried to copyright) to a wonderful world in which all the basics - File->Save As..., Edit->Paste etc. suddenly worked much the same on every application from every publishers. I think this transferability of skills had a far greater effect on the ease of use of systems like the early Mac than any tenuous analogy between on-screen folders and trashcans and their real-world counterparts.

Apple, Microsoft etc. used to produce detailed style guides for Mac OS and Windows dictating how user interfaces should work (while libraries and application frameworks ensured that following the rules was the path of least resistance). I'm sure these guides still exist, but the major publishers have long since stopped taking any notice of them, preferring to invent (and sometimes copyright or patent) their own systems of menus, toolbars and palettes). The consistency is gone.

If you look at the two most egregious examples in iOS - Calendar and Contacts - you can see this lack of consistency. In Calendar, I can use gestures to turn pages - not so in Contacts (and if I try I start firing off unwanted actions). Nor is there any on-screen indication in Calendar (such as a turned-up corner) to flag that this gesture is available. At least the 'pages' motif in calendar makes some logical sense - whereas 'Contacts' does not behave in any way remotely resembling any book known to man. To add insult to injury, the 'leather look' has been adopted by OS X, but without any consistency of function.

This has nothing to do with skeuomorphism and everything to do with poor UI design. Hopefully, Ive 'gets' this and knows that it needs more than just stripping off the faux leather to fix.

Meanwhile, what symbols *do* you use when even a floppy disc icon for 'save' is now archaic (not that official iOS apps have a 'save' function) and every device is a slim box with a screen on it? A row of featureless rectangles?

Things like reel-to-reel tapes and movie cameras may just become abstracted icons - today's users may not have seen them, but they will know the symbols. Think of the old-fashioned 'bellows' camera that is used as the speed camera symbol on road signs in many countries - that has never been contemporary, but everybody understands it.

There's something to be said for just using text - but it takes up quite a lot of screen estate which is a problem on mobile devices.

...or you go for minimal on-screen controls, gestures, hot corners etc. The problem is, these present a vertical learning curve, and first impressions count (see: the reaction to the disappearance of the Start menu in Windows 8).

PrometheusGeek
May 7, 2013, 10:38 AM
Apple is, and always has been all about maximizing total profits. In this regard, they are no different from any other company, In this regard, they are just like Monsanto or Exxon.

The means to that end is to produce produce the products that they feel will accomplish that goal. The product that they want to produce is the product that will maximize total profits.

They have chosen a niche that they feel will accomplish that goal. They produce products within that niche.

If they thought that a different sort of product would allow them to produce greater total profits, they would produce other products.

Apple is not some sort of clubhouse for producing the products that they want to produce. They are not some sort of public charity that helps the public by producing certain products.

They are a business. They take money out of the pockets of the public and put that money into the pockets of the Hedge Funds. That is job number one. And job number two. And job number three.

They are not a charitable organization. They exist to maximize total profits.

Well respectfully, I disagree. Obviously they are a business and not a charity. Obviously their buisness model is to make money through profitable revenues. But I maintain that Steve Jobs' unique characteristic as a businessman and CEO was that his first priority was product quality, and that profit came second to that. He was famous for spending exorbitant amounts of money on researching the perfect paint colors, the exact right materials, the perfect process of molding plastics, etc... He was known to spend money that others would certainly have deemed "unnecessary" to make the chips inside a computer line up symmetrically, and to paint and stylize production machinery on the assembly lines. He even had expensive leather chairs installed in customized viewing rooms over his assembly line at NeXt. In doing these kinds of things, he wasn't "maximizing profits." He was spending money that most people thought was wasteful because it detracted from company profits.

But he did it because as much as he cared about profits, he cared about products more.

I believe that spirit lives on at Apple, and that it always must. There are only a few companies where this is true - that profitability is a necessary goal, but not at the expense of product quality. Most companies compromise product quality in order to maximize bottom line profits. Apple will sacrifice market base and bottom line profits in order to maximize quality and guarantee the products they envision. Samsung is the current classic model of the former ethic, Apple is the current champion of the latter.

People who struggle to grasp this will always complain that Apple is becoming obsolete or falling behind. They will always be frustrated by the pace at which Apple innovates. They wil always perceive that the Microsofts, Dells, and Samsungs are "winning" because they fail to realize that in reality, they're playing an entirely different game.

AppleMark
May 7, 2013, 10:53 AM
Did anybody else have the urge to try for a British accent when reading those quotes?

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is not really such a thing as a British accent.

Native Britain is classified as being made up of Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English, we can all sound very different. Sometimes to the point where we have no idea what some of us are saying... Even English regionals are very different.

For Jony, try English accent.

That's my 'Anal-qoute-of-the-day' out of the way...:)

iGrip
May 7, 2013, 10:57 AM
his first priority was product quality, and that profit came second to that.


Bull. His first priority was to return value to the people who owned the company he was hired to run. His method of doing that was to produce high quality products. He did very well with that strategy.

Nobody knew how to turn a buck like Steve Jobs. He was named CEO of the Decade because of his ability to generate profits


In doing these kinds of things, he wasn't "maximizing profits."

Bull. That is exactly what he was doing.




They wil always perceive that the Microsofts, Dells, and Samsungs are "winning" because they fail to realize that in reality, they're playing an entirely different game.

The game that Apple plays is maximizing total profits via the production and sale of products in a certain segment of the market. The only difference between them and the companies you cite are that the other companies aim for different segments of the market, and are less successful in generating total profits.

AppleMark
May 7, 2013, 11:12 AM
another thread where everyone cries that getting rid of skeuomorphism is a bad idea.

those people will be the first to upgrade.

"OMG I DIDN'T THINK I WOULD LIKE IT, BUT THIS IS AMAZING"

True, but then so is the opposite in regards to those who say it is a bad idea to keep skeuomorphism.

It's does not really matter what will be in iOS7 and like you say, almost everybody will be in line to upgrade.

In any case, Apple do not give you a choice if you want to use the next Gen iThing. So if iOS7 is out before the next iThing, you will have to use it, no matter what you think of it.

Whether it is "flat","Forstallised", "Ive-nised", we will all just lap it up regardless.

Why? Because it does not really matter, especially when all the 'shiny hunters' are dazzled and sleeping rough to be the first with a 'new' [*slightly and modestly tweeked] iThing.

IJ Reilly
May 7, 2013, 11:43 AM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is not really such a thing as a British accent.

Native Britain is classified as being made up of Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English, we can all sound very different. Sometimes to the point where we have no idea what some of us are saying... Even English regionals are very different.

For Jony, try English accent.

That's my 'Anal-qoute-of-the-day' out of the way...:)

Of course, but the same is true for the mythical "American accent" that I am sure many in Britain are convinced is more or less the same nationwide. It can vary quite a lot over the space of a 100 miles. As for Jony Ive, seems he's an Essex boy though it isn't so easy to hear in his voice any longer.

Smartass
May 7, 2013, 11:56 AM
scott forstall was great at this already. skeuomorphism brought out a lot of emotion from iphone users.

only emotions it got out of iphone users is "wait... is that stitched leather? WTF were they thinking?!"

notjustjay
May 7, 2013, 12:38 PM
He was known to spend money that others would certainly have deemed "unnecessary" to make the chips inside a computer line up symmetrically, and to paint and stylize production machinery on the assembly lines. He even had expensive leather chairs installed in customized viewing rooms over his assembly line at NeXt. In doing these kinds of things, he wasn't "maximizing profits." He was spending money that most people thought was wasteful because it detracted from company profits.

But he did it because as much as he cared about profits, he cared about products more.



He cared obsessively, you are right. But he did so because he felt that by selling the "perfect" product he could command a higher price than by selling something that was "just good enough". Apple's gamble has always been "if we make it as perfect as we can, people will want it and people will pay a premium to get it". People also fall in love with the brand and become devotees and evangelists because the product is just that good.

Consider an analogy: I could buy slabs of meat, stick 'em on a grill, and sell them in a cafeteria style restaurant. Or I could dress up the place, have all the staff wear tuxedos, get the perfect fabrics for my tablecloths and the perfect stitched leather bindings for my menus. Now I've created an upscale fine dining steakhouse, and I can charge a much higher price. I will also attract a different type of clientele -- one who is hopefully more affluent and willing to give me more of their money.

All of those picky design decisions still had an end goal in mind, which was to sell product. Sure, Steve had a "we'll change the world" attitude about computing -- but it was always "we'll change the world when people buy OUR products".

griz
May 7, 2013, 12:52 PM
Ive got a good feeling about iOS7.

teknikal90
May 7, 2013, 12:55 PM
He didn't have to.Just listen to their public statements.

so you would know that you fit in a company based on their public statements?
do you choose a spouse based on their facebook status?

Rogifan
May 7, 2013, 12:57 PM
Bull. His first priority was to return value to the people who owned the company he was hired to run. His method of doing that was to produce high quality products. He did very well with that strategy.

Nobody knew how to turn a buck like Steve Jobs. He was named CEO of the Decade because of his ability to generate profits




Bull. That is exactly what he was doing.





The game that Apple plays is maximizing total profits via the production and sale of products in a certain segment of the market. The only difference between them and the companies you cite are that the other companies aim for different segments of the market, and are less successful in generating total profits.

Actually Apple wasn't generating huge profits until the iPhone came out. In FY 2001 Apple had a loss of $25 million. FY 2011 net income was greater than 1998-2009 combined.

rodriguise
May 7, 2013, 01:05 PM
In every photo Ive looks like he's taking a dump.

Rogifan
May 7, 2013, 01:08 PM
All of those picky design decisions still had an end goal in mind, which was to sell product. Sure, Steve had a "we'll change the world" attitude about computing -- but it was always "we'll change the world when people buy OUR products".

Well I would hope the CEO of a company would want people to buy their products.

In Walter Isaacson's book Jony Ive talked about the colored iMacs and said Steve made the decision right away, whereas at another company all sorts of studies would've been done before/if it was approved. Apple spent $250K a pop on machines to perforate a tiny hole in the MacBooks so you would see a green light when the camera was on. There are plenty of things Apple spends money on that another company probably wouldn't. Are they doing it because they are obsessed with generate huge profits? Or are they doing it because they believe it makes for a better product that people are willing to spend more on? I think it's the latter and the consequence of those values are increased profits. But I don't think that's the motivation. All the executives are super rich. If it was just money they cared about they could all retire now.

IJ Reilly
May 7, 2013, 01:23 PM
Well I would hope the CEO of a company would want people to buy their products.

In Walter Isaacson's book Jony Ive talked about the colored iMacs and said Steve made the decision right away, whereas at another company all sorts of studies would've been done before/if it was approved. Apple spent $250K a pop on machines to perforate a tiny hole in the MacBooks so you would see a green light when the camera was on. There are plenty of things Apple spends money on that another company probably wouldn't. Are they doing it because they are obsessed with generate huge profits? Or are they doing it because they believe it makes for a better product that people are willing to spend more on? I think it's the latter and the consequence of those values are increased profits. But I don't think that's the motivation. All the executives are super rich. If it was just money they cared about they could all retire now.

You are right that Apple doesn't do focus groups, but I'm not sure that Apple is spending money where others would not. They certainly don't seem to spend with no obvious rhyme or reason, like Google does. Or to no useful effect, like Microsoft. Apple's approach to R&D is unique to the company's culture in some important respects, but in the end, the method is bottom-line driven. As it should be. At the very least, it's the way corporate success is measured.

As for the super-rich execs, I have yet to hear a single one of them say that they were already rich enough. They equate money with power, and more money with more power. They see this connection at least as well as you and I, and probably a great deal more.

inselstudent
May 7, 2013, 01:30 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is not really such a thing as a British accent.

Native Britain is classified as being made up of Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English, we can all sound very different. Sometimes to the point where we have no idea what some of us are saying... Even English regionals are very different.

For Jony, try English accent.

That's my 'Anal-qoute-of-the-day' out of the way...:)

Yeah...no offence was intended :) Obviously I meant his particular English accent. I'm not a native English speaker so I classify all sorts of English speakers only quite roughly. I'm very sorry. If u heard a German, a Spaniard or a Frenchman talk, would you know to correctly differentiate their accents? :P

AppleMark
May 7, 2013, 01:42 PM
Yeah...no offence was intended :) Obviously I meant his particular English accent. I'm not a native English speaker so I classify all sorts of English speakers only quite roughly. I'm very sorry. If u heard a German, a Spaniard or a Frenchman talk, would you know to correctly differentiate their accents? :P

I was only playing...., but well if you want to go that route....

It is not about the whether you are a native or not. It is about whether you understand the difference and you clearly do not.

As to understanding the different accent origins you mention, yes I could if they were all speaking English. If you meant in their native language, it would not be relevant as we are only talking about differences in a commonly understood language.

Wales has it's own language, Ireland has it's [old] language and Scotland sounds like it has it's own language [sorry guy's :)]... and accents. Are you keeping up?

What you are saying is akin to the world thinking that an American accent is to include Mexicans and French Canadians.

A bit silly....

inselstudent
May 7, 2013, 03:19 PM
I was only playing...., but well if you want to go that route....

It is not about the whether you are a native or not. It is about whether you understand the difference and you clearly do not.

As to understanding the different accent origins you mention, yes I could if they were all speaking English. If you meant in their native language, it would not be relevant as we are only talking about differences in a commonly understood language.

Wales has it's own language, Ireland has it's [old] language and Scotland sounds like it has it's own language [sorry guy's :)]... and accents. Are you keeping up?

What you are saying is akin to the world thinking that an American accent is to include Mexicans and French Canadians.

A bit silly....

Duh, I actually was "playing" along. What didn't you understand about "no offence intended" and my smileys. I made a mistake and I know it. Again, I'm very sorry.
Please let's just stop this. It's not even relevant in this topic.

Rogifan
May 7, 2013, 06:12 PM
You are right that Apple doesn't do focus groups, but I'm not sure that Apple is spending money where others would not. They certainly don't seem to spend with no obvious rhyme or reason, like Google does. Or to no useful effect, like Microsoft. Apple's approach to R&D is unique to the company's culture in some important respects, but in the end, the method is bottom-line driven. As it should be. At the very least, it's the way corporate success is measured.

As for the super-rich execs, I have yet to hear a single one of them say that they were already rich enough. They equate money with power, and more money with more power. They see this connection at least as well as you and I, and probably a great deal more.
And I haven't heard one of them say they weren't rich enough either. :)

WisdomSeed
May 7, 2013, 07:10 PM
I'm glad that iOS is changing, it was getting old. That said, transitions are not always nice or easy. While I didn't care for the leather bound look of Notes or the Calendar, I did kinda like the reel-to-reel of the podcasts app, but now that is gone, I don't really miss it. It was like an Easter Egg, cute but not necessary. I get that.

On the other hand, good UI or GUI is almost like mysticism. You can't really say if one is good or bad unless you use it, and only then can you find the real flaws in a system. Even then, it could be a matter of preferences alone. Based on his designs, I think Jony goes for the smooth, which is pretty cool. I'm sure that while others may be counting the clicks and touches (as poorly as they do with their wiz-bangery, I don't think they have quite to the science that Jony dones.

I don't like the Android OS, I get lost in it, but the iOS is getting really long in tooth and I am looking forward to real updates, not just the beautifcation of them. It would be nice to have a multiple user interface on iOS, I'm hoping they go in that direction. I'm on the fence with widgets, I hardly ever use them on my iMac, but there is data I would like to get at a glance, and it is not Twitter of Facebook.

I want to be able to add some serious customization to my phone, I want to recognize it as mine from across the room, but I don't feel I should have to jailbreak it to do that. If I want to access the weather, I don't feel I should have to login to get it, but I do want my other data to be safe and secure. This is not an easy task, but it is a doable one.

Right now, I've removed all the apps from my home screen, because I was sick of seeing them. Can we work that out? Sure, but the question remains how?

Samsungs file moving is pretty cool, but the set up is not a friendly one. ON the other hand, iOS already has parts in place with Find My Friends, so it would be easy to share with anyone or specificaly designated people in your address book, like with 'Do Not Disturb'. I feel like they are a few serious tweaks away from blowing Samsung and Android out of the water. But I don't know just what those tweaks are.

IJ Reilly
May 7, 2013, 07:19 PM
And I haven't heard one of them say they weren't rich enough either. :)

But we can always hope, eh?

roninnder
May 7, 2013, 08:57 PM
Can anyone give me an example where skeumorphism improved functionality?

cire
May 7, 2013, 09:32 PM
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but there is not really such a thing as a British accent.

Native Britain is classified as being made up of Northern Irish, Scottish, Welsh and English
...
For Jony, try English accent.


So then you're saying that Jony's English accent is one of several possible British accents. So, Ive's got a British accent.

That's my 'Anal-reply-of-the-day' out of the way...:)

Mackan
May 8, 2013, 12:51 AM
In every photo Ive looks like he's taking a dump.

I think he wants you to see the pure physical version of himself, unaltered from emotions, so that you can make the purest interpretation of him in an unconscious way.

In other words, he may very well take a dump on his inner plane.

ArmCortexA8
May 8, 2013, 02:50 AM
I think its high time the OS was renewed, as its getting long in the tooth so to speak - its general appearance hasn't change for years and its getting a bit stale. I have noticed the OS is not contiguous - different areas of the same OS don't carry the same design / layout / etc. There are too many variables between multiple screens and even some buttons are different locations on different screens. Having an "ecosystem" with broken contiguity just causes problems.

I've heard the new OS will be "flat" in visual acuity, and design and I think this is the start of a whole new look which retains the basic and possibly enhanced functionality. Im not a fan of gesture based functionality because touch / buttons are quicker and more direct. Well as a registered developer looking forward to getting a look at iOS 7 soon.

iGrip
May 8, 2013, 06:05 AM
Actually Apple wasn't generating huge profits until the iPhone came out. In FY 2001 Apple had a loss of $25 million. FY 2011 net income was greater than 1998-2009 combined.

All publicly owned companies strive to maximize total profits.

The amount of success they acheive says nothing about the goal.

Delmontebanana
May 8, 2013, 04:19 PM
You would fit in well at Microsoft or RIM/Blackberry. No so much at Apple.

It's that space that you and other people such as Steve Ballmer refer to as "nothing" that seems to be running circles around the competition. It's that nothingness that has been referred to as the magic in the devices that gets people in lines waiting to get their hands on a new iDevice.

I believe you though. There is nothing here for you.

Also this "nothing" is the key differentiator between the 4 and 4S. I won't say the same for the 5 as there was "something" different there - longer screen.

/sarcasm off

In honesty I do feel the iOS devices are losing their innovative juices and it saddens me. For me iOS7 is the last chance before I jump ship.

koen
May 8, 2013, 04:37 PM
This is nice read on Ive's design philosophy: http://hypercritical.co/2013/05/03/beauty-truth-and-jony-ive

johngordon
May 8, 2013, 05:31 PM
I trust Ive and I'm really excited about anything he does. The first thing you can definitely say about almost all Apple products is that they look, feel and work in a very pleasant way. There's of course what he says about what's beyond numbers and what you can describe with words. The iPhone is a flat rectangle with rounded corners, and so is the Samsung Galaxy S4. But for some reason - which one cannot describe in an ad and can't really explain in a simple way - the Samsung just seems like a boring machine while the iPhone has "something about it" that's just positive. It's not one thing, it's the way all the things work together and create that effect. It's THAT effect that most companies simply don't get (and Samsung never got). Some companies/people have it, some don't.

Absolutely agree with this. It's why any Apple/iOS v Samsung/Android debate is a total waste of time. I'm convinced its that left v right hand side of the brain thing.

I was listening to Gruber's podcast earlier, and they were discussing where iOS might be headed. The consensus was that there may be some over reaction to the talk of flattening iOS, and that "flattening" most likely means "making less garish", rather than making it completely flat.

The new podcast app is still a good example - it's flatter, but still has some subtle shading and gradients. But the OTT elements have been binned.

They also made a good point countering the thoughts of some that Ive will rid iOS of all personality. They cited some of the apps currently shown on the iPhone and iPad pages on the Apple site, that someone at Apple obviously likes, and so could be a hint at where Apple might head. So for example, on the iPad page the girl in the balloon in a photo type app, with text on semi transparent layers. Simple, flattish, but still looks good. Or the Catch app on the iPhone page - basically a flatter version of notes, but looks good, and has more functionality than Notes.

Designing something that is quite simple, but also looks good is tricky, but I have every confidence that Ive is wired to tell the difference between simple, and looks a bit naff, and simple, but also looks great.

sn
May 9, 2013, 04:29 AM
Uhh, you do realize that when Steve Jobs was coming out with the NeXT cube, he spent a couple of months looking at hundreds of shades of *BLACK* to find that one shade of black, right?

Really? I doubt that's true but if it is, that's a tremendous waste of time.

johngordon
May 9, 2013, 04:42 AM
I think it was mentioned in the Isaacson bio.

Here a few more examples (http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-attention-to-detail-2011-10?op=1).

Its difficult to argue that these sorts of things were done to maximise profit.

adildacoolset
May 9, 2013, 05:00 AM
Actually Ive is quite right. Lots of things that matter aren't really translatable into a number. Apple difference since Jobs comeback is really caring about all those things while most of tech companies stopped caring (mostly because of peoples that think like you and consider those things as irrelevant and purely superficials when actually they happen to matter a lot for most in the perception they have of the products around us)

How much is it worth to have a product that is a bit simpler to use, or a UI that is clearer. The same way, how much it is worth to have nice colors on the wall of your appartment, having a kitchen that is a bit more functionnal, having a sofa that is a bit more comfortable. You can't put a number on those things, but they still matter a great deal in the end.

I like your analogy. What Ive is describing, is that there is a certain thing that makes an emotional connection with the products. And it sure as hel isn't numbers.

Sort of like how the difference is between an hotel room and a home. A hotel room might be more comfortable, and have good service, but a home is a home. No ratings, or costs, service, or anything can change that. People like to stay in a home.

sn
May 9, 2013, 05:13 AM
I think he wants you to see the pure physical version of himself, unaltered from emotions, so that you can make the purest interpretation of him in an unconscious way.

That's evocative in itself though.

Rogifan
May 9, 2013, 07:56 PM
Can anyone give me an example where skeumorphism improved functionality?

I can't find the exact quote, but Ive once said something to the effect of he thought it was a sad commentary that a product had the right to exist just because it was functional. For me the problem with skeuomorphism isn't whether it improved functionality, but the instances where it actually hindered it by staying too true to the analog world.

johngordon
May 11, 2013, 10:46 AM
I think Apple / Ive could a lot worse than this mock up by Simply Zesty:

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2013/05/10/a-stunning-concept-of-what-apples-next-version-of-ios-could-and-perhaps-should-be-like/

Flatter, without being completely flat, and similar cues to the new Yahoo weather app.