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ugahairydawgs
May 7, 2013, 09:46 AM
There's Kool Aid drinking....and then there's this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/may/07/bill-gates-ipad-android-pc-tablets



MacRumorUser
May 7, 2013, 09:48 AM
Bless him...... What more can I say?

ucfgrad93
May 7, 2013, 09:50 AM
There's Kool Aid drinking....and then there's this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/may/07/bill-gates-ipad-android-pc-tablets

Agreed. While I have no doubt that some will switch from either iOS or Android, I don't see Windows dominating the way they do on computers.

GoCubsGo
May 7, 2013, 09:55 AM
This doesn't seem likely at all. Not with the directions Windows has gone.

LIVEFRMNYC
May 7, 2013, 10:02 AM
I have a asus touchscreen notebook(not tablet) with windows 8. Only thing I like about metro is the email app and gestures. Other than that metro and most of the apps suck. I stay on desktop 95% of the time.

As much as I like the Lumia 920. WP8 doesn't seem like an OS for quick tasking. Too much tiles, scrolling, animations, and flicking. That's the impression I got when playing with it. I'm used to tapping once or several times to get something done quickly.

Bill Gates is on some B.S. I don't need MS office to create office docs and I can type just fine.

Big Dave
May 7, 2013, 10:04 AM
"This is why you fail." -Yoda

sentinelsx
May 7, 2013, 10:11 AM
I doubt those over sized blocks are the future.

Metro is the reason i do not like upgrading to windows 8 (have no choice if i buy a new PC though) and did not want to use windows phone 8 as daily driver.

Even blackberry is using the traditional icon based UI which looks far better to me than those huge space wasting blocks on windows and windows phone.

In my 16 years of using windows, this is the first time i am strongly considering purchasing a mac as my next computer. Bill Gates must be on crack.

spinedoc77
May 7, 2013, 10:13 AM
IMO he is 100% right, if MS would stop screwing up so badly. If they could get windows 8 just right to be perfect on a tablet there would be a heck of a lot of "frustrated" people on today's toy tablets who would switch over. The problem is that MS is not getting windows 8 right, and it's really turning a lot of people off.

I think it's grossly underestimated how many users are "frustrated" with today's tablets, today's tablets have never made the leap to make consumers throw away their desktops and laptops for example. A windows 8 tablet done right, with the right UI, with the right amount of horsepower and battery life, with the right amount of connectivity and input methods may very well bridge the gap in a revolution which see us move the mobile space completely over to a tablet, much like the mobile space moved to laptops very quickly.

thehustleman
May 7, 2013, 10:15 AM
He has a valid point.

I don't need office but typing for long periods of time on a tablet sucks without a keyboard.

Problem is they priced the surface too high

Night Spring
May 7, 2013, 10:40 AM
He has a valid point.

I don't need office but typing for long periods of time on a tablet sucks without a keyboard.

Problem is they priced the surface too high

People who want to type a lot on a tablet simply buy Bluetooth keyboards. For the iPad, there are a lot of options for keyboards that are incorporated into iPad covers, or keyboard + stand combinations.

In other words, there is no need to make a hybrid tablet + desktop OS in order to allow people to use a physical keyboard with their tablet. IMO that's where Microsoft went wrong.

maflynn
May 7, 2013, 10:43 AM
There's Kool Aid drinking....and then there's this.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2013/may/07/bill-gates-ipad-android-pc-tablets

I give it a meh. The founder of Microsoft promoting his products and stating that consumers will switch. I'm surprised it took him that long in the first place.

AutoUnion39
May 7, 2013, 10:59 AM
Bill Gates is delusional. WP8 is still too new and Windows 8 is overrated.

SMDBill
May 7, 2013, 12:16 PM
I think he misses the point. While some users need the full power of an OS with a traditional file system, large storage, keyboard input (but BT keyboard for iPad negates that concern totally), mouse use, etc., MOST users who buy a tablet are not those users. So while iOS is not capable of a lot of things, having MS Office available in 2014 gives MS a bit of time to try to capture market share while giving up so much profit from users wanting it today. I suspect they would earn more revenue from subscriptions that start today for iOS users than they will gain in market share by having users migrate between iOS/Android/MS Windows 8 tablets.

For those who need full power, little can compare to Surface Pro, but I hope MS, and Bill Gates in his wishful thinking, are not waiting for the tidal wave of power users to flood the market soon buying up all the Surface Pros or similar. Tablets remain consumption devices and developers are working daily to correct that into consumption/creation devices. The power of the full Windows 8 tablet can't really be knocked for work purposes since they're more true productivity machines, but I suspect a lot of users will continue to use tablets at half the cost or down to $149 (Nook HD for example) and get 90% of what they need done without the huge investment into a full powered tablet.

If I were truly in need of that full-fledged desktop environment ALL the time, a tablet would not be my tool to use.

----------

Bill Gates is delusional. WP8 is still too new and Windows 8 is overrated.
No doubt! He should be embarrassed that he has to use his position as founder and former CEO to promote an OS that just isn't doing as well as they hoped.

b166er
May 7, 2013, 04:16 PM
I ditched windows PC's years ago.

I was very intrigued my WP8, and even more intrigued by Nokia bringing some serious game to the table with it. And while I like WP8, it's flaws are too many right now. I'm going to keep a close eye on it, but I'm grabbing an Android this week.

It should not be possible to have 5 "copies" of the same app open, hogging up RAM. When I use the home button to close, and then tap that same app again, it should bring me back to where I was, not open a second version. Really annoying. Sad thing is, the third party apps don't do this, but the built in stuff like mail and contacts does.

theluggage
May 7, 2013, 04:44 PM
There's Kool Aid drinking....and then there's this.

My guess - tablets are just about peaking. There will be a drift back from tablets and mobile devices to "proper" laptops as the tablet hype bubble deflates. There already seems to be a drift towards 7in tablets and "phablets" and away from 10" tablets.

Media consumption, personal organiser, email and note-taking are what mobile devices are good at. Creating documents and 'serious' typing are what traditional PCs are good at.

People who want to type a lot on a tablet simply buy Bluetooth keyboards.

I bought a keyboard cover for my iPad.

Mistake.

When you strap a keyboard to a tablet it looses the portability and immediacy of a tablet. Meanwhile touchscreen + keyboard just doesn't hang together (gorilla arms etc.)

tjl3
May 7, 2013, 05:13 PM
My guess - tablets are just about peaking. There will be a drift back from tablets and mobile devices to "proper" laptops as the tablet hype bubble deflates. There already seems to be a drift towards 7in tablets and "phablets" and away from 10" tablets.

Media consumption, personal organiser, email and note-taking are what mobile devices are good at. Creating documents and 'serious' typing are what traditional PCs are good at.



The problem with that is most people don't need a traditional PC for their needs. And those that do own one or are issued one for work. That is not to say that PCs will ever go away, but it'll be tough for them to 'make a comeback.'

Another issue is that PCs will never be more mobile than smartphones or tablets. But if consumer interest shifts to creating documents and serious typing, all these fancy companies will come up w/ a suitable solution to typing.

Renzatic
May 7, 2013, 05:30 PM
When you strap a keyboard to a tablet it looses the portability and immediacy of a tablet. Meanwhile touchscreen + keyboard just doesn't hang together (gorilla arms etc.)

My answer to that is to get a stand alone bluetooth keyboard. Most of the time I'm typing on my iPad is spent leaning back in my chair with my legs propped up, my mag cover holding my iPad up on the desk in front of me, and my keyboard in my lap. It's surprisingly comfortable, though it's probably wreaking havok on my lower back.

If I want to use the iPad as a tablet, I just put the keyboard down, and pick the iPad up. Pretty simple, pretty smooth, pretty nice. The only relatively small downside is if I want to type something while I'm out running around, I have to drag the keyboard along with me. But that isn't that big of a deal.

Twixt
May 7, 2013, 05:59 PM
My answer to that is to get a stand alone bluetooth keyboard. Most of the time I'm typing on my iPad is spent leaning back in my chair with my legs propped up, my mag cover holding my iPad up on the desk in front of me, and my keyboard in my lap. It's surprisingly comfortable, though it's probably wreaking havok on my lower back.

If I want to use the iPad as a tablet, I just put the keyboard down, and pick the iPad up. Pretty simple, pretty smooth, pretty nice. The only relatively small downside is if I want to type something while I'm out running around, I have to drag the keyboard along with me. But that isn't that big of a deal.

If a tablet is easier to use with a keyboard because of the need of much typing, why bothering and not just use a laptop? Laptop might be heavier but no possible comparison in terms of usage

Renzatic
May 7, 2013, 06:11 PM
If a tablet is easier to use with a keyboard because of the need of much typing, why bothering and not just use a laptop? Laptop might be heavier but no possible comparison in terms of usage

It's a personal preference thing. After all these years spent on desktops, I find I like having a keyboard separate from the monitor. Having a little freedom of movement just feels a more comfortable to me.

The only thing I don't like about it is having to reach up and touch the screen to quickly move around in a document, or navigate the UI. Sometimes I wish the iPad accepted mouse input.

...you know, the more I talk about it, the more I think I should just pony up for a Surface Pro. It's got a little bit of everything in it. I can use it as a touch based tablet, use a standalone keyboard if I want, it accepts mouse inputs for those moments when you need to make precise selections, and it has a nice, high quality digitizer built in.

If only it lasted more than 4 hours on a charge. Sigh. I tell you. Nothing's perfect.

SlCKB0Y
May 7, 2013, 06:14 PM
IMO he is 100% right, if MS would stop screwing up so badly. If they could get windows 8 just right to be perfect on a tablet there would be a heck of a lot of "frustrated" people on today's toy tablets who would switch over
...
I think it's grossly underestimated how many users are "frustrated" with today's tablets

Based on what? What do you have to support this claim?

spinedoc77
May 7, 2013, 06:16 PM
The problem with that is most people don't need a traditional PC for their needs. And those that do own one or are issued one for work. That is not to say that PCs will ever go away, but it'll be tough for them to 'make a comeback.'

Another issue is that PCs will never be more mobile than smartphones or tablets. But if consumer interest shifts to creating documents and serious typing, all these fancy companies will come up w/ a suitable solution to typing.

Yeah but why not have a FULL pc with you as a tablet? I know the issue with that is the crappy job MS has done in making Win8 a tablet OS, but if in some alternate reality MS actually did a good job incorporating Win8 into tablets why wouldn't you want a full OS on a tablet which was the same size, same battery life, same thinness, etc as an ipad?

For me iOS and Android were stop gap measures before we had hardware capable of running a real OS like windows or OSx. I believe it is only a matter of time until Apple releases OSx on a tablet, but they have to be careful not to cannibalize sales of their laptops. MS didn't do their OS right for tablets, but Apple might.

sentinelsx
May 7, 2013, 06:20 PM
My guess - tablets are just about peaking. There will be a drift back from tablets and mobile devices to "proper" laptops as the tablet hype bubble deflates. There already seems to be a drift towards 7in tablets and "phablets" and away from 10" tablets.

Media consumption, personal organiser, email and note-taking are what mobile devices are good at. Creating documents and 'serious' typing are what traditional PCs are good at.



I bought a keyboard cover for my iPad.

Mistake.

When you strap a keyboard to a tablet it looses the portability and immediacy of a tablet. Meanwhile touchscreen + keyboard just doesn't hang together (gorilla arms etc.)

Here's the thing. If I am typing a document, even today's cheap tablet can do it. Presentations, spreadsheets, you name it. There are professional apps for creating technical drafts even on an ipad. Some time soon we will perhaps have native coding tools too like web ones on ipad.

While my laptop can do it all a little better, what I HATE about them is they all get hot, generate noise, are bulky to carry, and simply feel as if I am using an "overspecced machine" to do my work.

And I WANT something that doesn't get hot, isn't heavier than a kilo, will not generate noise, and guess where do we arrive?

Yup, a tablet.

I don't think it's logical to go back to laptops and net books from tablets. Tablets are going to evolve and get better at replacing our laptops and I welcome such future.

spinedoc77
May 7, 2013, 06:20 PM
Based on what? What do you have to support this claim?

I'm just stating my opinion, same as the rest of us all. Windows is what like 90% of the market? That's a lot of windows users of whom many also use ipads and android tablets, it's a fair guess that many like myself have felt stifled and constrained by not having a real OS, but once again that's just conjecture based on my own frustrations and recent liberation when I purchased a windows tablet.

sentinelsx
May 7, 2013, 06:21 PM
Yeah but why not have a FULL pc with you as a tablet? I know the issue with that is the crappy job MS has done in making Win8 a tablet OS, but if in some alternate reality MS actually did a good job incorporating Win8 into tablets why wouldn't you want a full OS on a tablet which was the same size, same battery life, same thinness, etc as an ipad?

For me iOS and Android were stop gap measures before we had hardware capable of running a real OS like windows or OSx. I believe it is only a matter of time until Apple releases OSx on a tablet, but they have to be careful not to cannibalize sales of their laptops. MS didn't do their OS right for tablets, but Apple might.

This man gets it right.

daneoni
May 7, 2013, 06:24 PM
He and Thor (http://www.cultofmac.com/225718/blackberrys-ceo-thinks-tablets-will-be-dead-in-five-years/) should hang out and talk crap together.

Renzatic
May 7, 2013, 06:26 PM
I know the issue with that is the crappy job MS has done in making Win8 a tablet OS.

I wouldn't say they've done a crappy job, so much as released one only half finished. If MS could get the WinRT API up to old Win32 levels in terms of power and flexibility, along with streamlining some of the looser ends present in Win8, it'd be fairly decent.

As is, Metro feels more like a foot in the door measure than a complete OS by itself. Really, that's the problem with MS' entire tablet strategy in general. They have a ton of good ideas, and I like the general direction they're going, but the execution of said ideas leaves a good bit to be desired. It's a lot of promise only half implemented.

b166er
May 7, 2013, 07:43 PM
My guess - tablets are just about peaking

Just my two cents, but I'd have to disagree. The tablet, most notably the iPad, killed the netbook. Netbooks are all but extinct now. While I don't anything can ever really replace a true laptop, the tablet has become the standard for the average persons computing needs. Think about what most people use the internet for on a daily basis. Email, facebook (or whatever social network), and not much else. Add to that the app market (both iOS and Android) which allows people to use their tablets for basically everything from banking to netflix, and you have a device that is much more portable, and much more affordable, that in a lot of ways does what a laptop can't do.

Now if you're doing anything serious like video editing or actual photography, you're probably using a real computer. But for the most of us- tablets do it all and more. I think the tablet market is just getting revved up. I think in the coming years we are going to see very insane specs and features at the same price points.

spinedoc77
May 7, 2013, 08:16 PM
I wouldn't say they've done a crappy job, so much as released one only half finished. If MS could get the WinRT API up to old Win32 levels in terms of power and flexibility, along with streamlining some of the looser ends present in Win8, it'd be fairly decent.

As is, Metro feels more like a foot in the door measure than a complete OS by itself. Really, that's the problem with MS' entire tablet strategy in general. They have a ton of good ideas, and I like the general direction they're going, but the execution of said ideas leaves a good bit to be desired. It's a lot of promise only half implemented.

Yes I agree about it being only half done, but by the same token I don't really see why Metro needs to exist when all they needed to do was work on making their desktop touch friendly. As for WinRT it needs to die a quick death, it will confuse consumers and fragment the market, it is a failed experiment that is dragging MS down.

I think Metro was their attempt to "look" mobile, to look similar to their windows phones, to have a fresh and modern "mobile" look. But they needed to fully make the leap, not just put a "mobile" wrapper over the desktop.

----------

Just my two cents, but I'd have to disagree. The tablet, most notably the iPad, killed the netbook. Netbooks are all but extinct now. While I don't anything can ever really replace a true laptop, the tablet has become the standard for the average persons computing needs. Think about what most people use the internet for on a daily basis. Email, facebook (or whatever social network), and not much else. Add to that the app market (both iOS and Android) which allows people to use their tablets for basically everything from banking to netflix, and you have a device that is much more portable, and much more affordable, that in a lot of ways does what a laptop can't do.

Now if you're doing anything serious like video editing or actual photography, you're probably using a real computer. But for the most of us- tablets do it all and more. I think the tablet market is just getting revved up. I think in the coming years we are going to see very insane specs and features at the same price points.

Yep, I have no doubt that Tablets will replace laptops, we just have to get to the point where it's feasible to have the power of the strongest laptops out there in a thin form factor with all day battery life. Tablets will come in all sizes so if you want a 15" one you can have one. IMO iOS and Android while initially propelling us forward from a hardware point of view are now holding us back from this because of the weakness of the OS'. I can easily see Android picking up the slack and moving more towards a real OS, but then again seeing how Google fragments itself, for example having the Chrome OS, I don't know if they will ever just completely back one OS like MS does. Apple I see much less inclined to evolve, but then again they have OSx they can work off of.

HenryDJP
May 7, 2013, 10:19 PM
Looks like Bill Gates is either on Vicodin or some type of drugs or drunk for even thinking his prediction of the tech world going back to WINDOWS is gonna happen. LOL. Sorry Bill but the tech world is moving away from the good old Registry crap and MS's shameless monopoly. Thankfully there's finally a way out of the snake pit. He still doesn't get it, times have changed and not everybody needs to run Office or Windows apps anymore. Dream on Bill. MS's becoming a loser. Their CEO is already pouring the gas to light the flame.

Switchback666
May 8, 2013, 01:53 AM
Looks like Bill Gates is either on Vicodin or some type of drugs or drunk for even thinking his prediction of the tech world going back to WINDOWS is gonna happen. LOL. Sorry Bill but the tech world is moving away from the good old Registry crap and MS's shameless monopoly. Thankfully there's finally a way out of the snake pit. He still doesn't get it, times have changed and not everybody needs to run Office or Windows apps anymore. Dream on Bill. MS's becoming a loser. Their CEO is already pouring the gas to light the flame.

"Windows 8 Exceeds 100 Million Licenses Sold, Windows 8.1 Coming Later This Year"http://ow.ly/kNf5O

mib1800
May 8, 2013, 04:17 AM
Y

Yep, I have no doubt that Tablets will replace laptops, we just have to get to the point where it's feasible to have the power of the strongest laptops out there in a thin form factor with all day battery life. Tablets will come in all sizes so if you want a 15" one you can have one. IMO iOS and Android while initially propelling us forward from a hardware point of view are now holding us back from this because of the weakness of the OS'. I can easily see Android picking up the slack and moving more towards a real OS, but then again seeing how Google fragments itself, for example having the Chrome OS, I don't know if they will ever just completely back one OS like MS does. Apple I see much less inclined to evolve, but then again they have OSx they can work off of.

I highly doubt Android/IOS in a tablet can replace laptops no matter how powerful these OSes become. How do you start from scratch and replace what the Window platform have now? Even Mac OS hardly make a dent on Windows domination (even many who bought Macs to run Windows)

Excluding those that only casually use Windows laptop for surfing/email most serious works are still done on Windows. If ever touch screen tablets were to replace the current laptops/desktop, it will most like run Windows.

spinedoc77
May 8, 2013, 05:11 AM
I highly doubt Android/IOS in a tablet can replace laptops no matter how powerful these OSes become. How do you start from scratch and replace what the Window platform have now? Even Mac OS hardly make a dent on Windows domination (even many who bought Macs to run Windows)

Excluding those that only casually use Windows laptop for surfing/email most serious works are still done on Windows. If ever touch screen tablets were to replace the current laptops/desktop, it will most like run Windows.

You misunderstood me, I don't think ios or Android would ever replace laptops, at least in their current iteration. IMO windows has the greatest chance of making tablets truly replace laptops.

----------


going back to WINDOWS is gonna happen. LOL. me.

I don't think the world ever moved away from windows. Tablet users have existed still using their computers, that's the weak point of having an ios or android tablet. In contrast I have no use for my laptop anymore since I got my windows tablet, I rarely even use my desktop.

watchthisspace
May 8, 2013, 06:58 AM
I doubt those over sized blocks are the future.

Metro is the reason i do not like upgrading to windows 8 (have no choice if i buy a new PC though) and did not want to use windows phone 8 as daily driver.

Even blackberry is using the traditional icon based UI which looks far better to me than those huge space wasting blocks on windows and windows phone.

In my 16 years of using windows, this is the first time i am strongly considering purchasing a mac as my next computer. Bill Gates must be on crack.

Not trying to take a digg at you, but when you say that Blackberry is using the traditional icon based, UI, then what is Windows Phones space wasting blocks?? They are icons too. Icons representing an application on the phone. :confused:

What makes these "Space wasting blocks" unique is that instead of being static or having a badge to inform the user there is a notification, they actually show more information in live time. Hence why they are called live tiles.

When you talk about Windows 8, yes, I can agree that modern ui (It's not labelled Metro anymore) doesn't suit the desktop OS but on Windows Phone, it's good.

sentinelsx
May 8, 2013, 07:25 AM
Not trying to take a digg at you, but when you say that Blackberry is using the traditional icon based, UI, then what is Windows Phones space wasting blocks?? They are icons too. Icons representing an application on the phone. :confused:

What makes these "Space wasting blocks" unique is that instead of being static or having a badge to inform the user there is a notification, they actually show more information in live time. Hence why they are called live tiles.

When you talk about Windows 8, yes, I can agree that modern ui (It's not labelled Metro anymore) doesn't suit the desktop OS but on Windows Phone, it's good.

Space wasting meaning they are oversized. Also I think a notification center would be better than live tiles. Consider having 30 apps with notifications and I doubt constantly searching for each live tile for an update is as fun as it looks at the start.

theluggage
May 8, 2013, 07:28 AM
The problem with that is most people don't need a traditional PC for their needs. And those that do own one or are issued one for work.

I'm not saying that tablets will go away, but the current "the answer is mobile technology! ...now what was the question?" madness will die down.

Microsoft's opportunity in the tablet market would be if/when employers who currently issue their employees with a PC start issuing them with a tablet instead. MS know how to sell to the corporate market and have a huge foothold. However, that foothold is based largely on legacy software designed for keyboard an mouse - which won't work well, if at all, on a tablet. The Surface Pro is clearly an attempt to cater for this market with a tablet/PC half-way house, but I suspect that it will get used more as a PC than a tablet, and will gradually be assimilated into the general class of 'laptop' (the same thing has already happened to the netbook).

Meanwhile, phones, mini-tablets and phablets will be the devices of choice for media consumption and communication.

Of course, if I thought this was more than just idle speculation I'd be off to the stock market to make a fortune rather than faffing around on an internet forum...

Aside: looking at Adobe's new pen & ruler set makes me think: when am I going to be able to buy the $10 App that makes the iPad or a Galaxy Note 10 work with my desktop machine like one of those "if you need to ask the price you can't afford it" Wacom Cintique tablets!?

HenryDJP
May 8, 2013, 09:46 AM
"Windows 8 Exceeds 100 Million Licenses Sold, Windows 8.1 Coming Later This Year"http://ow.ly/kNf5O

LOL, uh you do realize most of that 100 million licenses go to new PC's with Windows 8 preinstalled right? People don't generally buy a copy of Windows like they would buy a copy of OS X. You do also realize that PC's that are sold to the retailers are included in MS's "sales numbers" right? And that accounts for most of the sales numbers, sorry if you're believing otherwise. You also realize that buying a PC in a store you're forced to have whatever version of Windows that's preinstalled right? You do also realize that the average consumer isn't a techie or a geek and won't remove that rubbish Windows 8 and go back to 7 right? Also I hope you realize that there are tons of sheep that shop on QVC and other home shopping networks that will buy any PC that the TV show tells them to buy. I heard that QVC had massive returns of Windows 8 computers from unhappy customers. You also realize (at least I hope) that MS exaggerates POS numbers right? I mean they said that the Surface RT tablet sold out the first day at their retail stores, LOL, yeah that's because MS had very little stock in the first place but they tried to keep that quiet until the news came out.

Who gives a hoot how much Windows 8 is "selling", that's not indicative of people dumping iPads or even Android tablets in favor of Windows 8 tablets. In fact, don't count on it. Bill Gates may be one of the riches men in the world but he's old and delusional and his prediction ain't gonna happen. :D

HenryDJP
May 8, 2013, 10:13 AM
I highly doubt Android/IOS in a tablet can replace laptops no matter how powerful these OSes become. How do you start from scratch and replace what the Window platform have now? Even Mac OS hardly make a dent on Windows domination (even many who bought Macs to run Windows)

Excluding those that only casually use Windows laptop for surfing/email most serious works are still done on Windows. If ever touch screen tablets were to replace the current laptops/desktop, it will most like run Windows.

This kind of post is disturbing. I just love how some people seem to be upset at Apple dominating space in the tech world but here we are with a post like this that spells out that MS domination is the only domination that SHOULD exists. :rolleyes:
You as a consumer you should be happy that there are other choices outside of Microsoft. The world has gotten tired of being forced to use Windows and you are in another world if you think MS will always be dominant. They've monopolized the world enough. "Mac OS hasn't made a dent in Windows domination." Are you listening to yourself with a post like that? Windows comes preinstalled on any PC that is not a Mac. It's certainly isn't about choice, it's about cheap and if a person wants cheap Windows is the only option. Well people are realizing that they don't need Windows to fulfill their needs and the iPad is the one that is being chosen by businesses, hospitals, banks, insurance agencies and the ever popular home user.
See, unlike MS who pushes Windows in the users face in order to maintain domination, Apple offers a product that people CHOOSE to use and it earns itself domination that way.

Rogifan
May 8, 2013, 10:26 AM
Hey Bill, give me a surface pro that's thin and light like a iPad mini and gets 10 hour battery life and the maybe we'll talk. I'd be curious to know how many people who own surface pro (or other hybrid laptops) actually use them as tablets.. I mean how often do you see surface advertised without the kickstand and keyboard, or in portrait orientation?

CEmajr
May 8, 2013, 10:38 AM
I agree to a degree. The lack of true laptop replacement capabilities is what has kept me from investing in an iPad or any tablet at all for that matter. As of right now I just can't find a significant enough use for them that justifies their price. I currently see the Macbook air as a better option for ultraportable computing.

Now if Microsoft can get a tablet to market that can truly serve as a low to mid-end laptop replacement, then I will be interested.

Michael Goff
May 8, 2013, 10:59 AM
Hey Bill, give me a surface pro that's thin and light like a iPad mini and gets 10 hour battery life and the maybe we'll talk. I'd be curious to know how many people who own surface pro (or other hybrid laptops) actually use them as tablets.. I mean how often do you see surface advertised without the kickstand and keyboard, or in portrait orientation?

So you want something with an i-processor that's as light as an 8" tablet while being a 10" tablet while getting the battery life of an underpowered ARM processor?

Why not ask for the easter bunny while you're at it.

SMDBill
May 8, 2013, 12:24 PM
"Windows 8 Exceeds 100 Million Licenses Sold, Windows 8.1 Coming Later This Year"http://ow.ly/kNf5OJudging a MS product like the OS or Office by quantity sold is a pretty deceptive exercise. While their numbers are huge, that doesn't suggest people either like it or want it. Almost every new PC coming to market carries Windows 8. That alone will drive the numbers. Businesses mostly rely on MS as well, as does the federal and most local governments, the military, etc. So while the numbers are large, many are locked into the market by Windows and Office for reasons other than just desire to buy a product.

But I do suspect the high sales numbers for Apple somewhat reflect user aggravation with Windows. It's not a terrible product at all, but the UI was simply not implemented well enough to meet the needs of all devices. To use it to (attempt) to grab phone and tablet sales at the expense of their massive PC market is just mind boggling.

ugahairydawgs
May 8, 2013, 12:35 PM
"Windows 8 Exceeds 100 Million Licenses Sold, Windows 8.1 Coming Later This Year"http://ow.ly/kNf5O

http://www.technightowl.com/2013/05/about-those-100-million-windows-8-sales/

jrswizzle
May 8, 2013, 12:50 PM
Just my two cents, but I'd have to disagree. The tablet, most notably the iPad, killed the netbook. Netbooks are all but extinct now. While I don't anything can ever really replace a true laptop, the tablet has become the standard for the average persons computing needs. Think about what most people use the internet for on a daily basis. Email, facebook (or whatever social network), and not much else. Add to that the app market (both iOS and Android) which allows people to use their tablets for basically everything from banking to netflix, and you have a device that is much more portable, and much more affordable, that in a lot of ways does what a laptop can't do.

Now if you're doing anything serious like video editing or actual photography, you're probably using a real computer. But for the most of us- tablets do it all and more. I think the tablet market is just getting revved up. I think in the coming years we are going to see very insane specs and features at the same price points.

Just look at the latest smartphones being released - the CPU/GPU benchmarks are matching the laptops we had only 6ish years ago.

IMO, the tablet will continue to evolve and continue to cement its place as the go-to computing device for the average user.

Laptops of course will continue to exist as will desktops.

That is until our mobile devices get so powerful we can simply dock them and run everything from our phones hooked to a monitor, mouse and keyboard.

Night Spring
May 8, 2013, 01:21 PM
That is until our mobile devices get so powerful we can simply dock them and run everything from our phones hooked to a monitor, mouse and keyboard.

Can't wait until we get that -- something small and light that is pocketable. Standalone it's the phone, but snap it into the back of a tablet-size display to make it a tablet, and snap it into a desktop docking station to connect to a big display and full desktop keyboard. And the OS should sense which mode it is in and adjust accordingly.

I do hope somebody makes this one day...

ihuman:D
May 8, 2013, 01:29 PM
Even though I'm a WP fanboy, this is too much. Who does he think he is and where did he get this ridiculous idea from!?

spinedoc77
May 8, 2013, 01:54 PM
Hey Bill, give me a surface pro that's thin and light like a iPad mini and gets 10 hour battery life and the maybe we'll talk. I'd be curious to know how many people who own surface pro (or other hybrid laptops) actually use them as tablets.. I mean how often do you see surface advertised without the kickstand and keyboard, or in portrait orientation?

Done. Atom powered tablets. Granted the horsepower isn't the same, but in day to day use you will never notice it.

Michael Goff
May 8, 2013, 01:56 PM
http://www.technightowl.com/2013/05/about-those-100-million-windows-8-sales/

I love the smell of a pointless opinion piece in the morning.

TheHateMachine
May 8, 2013, 02:17 PM
http://www.technightowl.com/2013/05/about-those-100-million-windows-8-sales/

I am surprised he took a little bit of time off from writing Apple defense force and worship articles to bash a product from Microsoft.

Also, correct me If I am wrong but he states in his article that Apple only reports "sales" but are they lumping their "shipped" in with that when they sell to carriers and retailers?

ugahairydawgs
May 8, 2013, 02:47 PM
I am surprised he took a little bit of time off from writing Apple defense force and worship articles to bash a product from Microsoft.

Also, correct me If I am wrong but he states in his article that Apple only reports "sales" but are they lumping their "shipped" in with that when they sell to carriers and retailers?

Someone else may be more knowledgeable on this, but I've always been under the impression that Apple's sales number are actual end user sales.

I could be wrong on that though.

Switchback666
May 8, 2013, 02:59 PM
LOL, uh you do realize most of that 100 million licenses go to new PC's with Windows 8 preinstalled right? People don't generally buy a copy of Windows like they would buy a copy of OS X. You do also realize that PC's that are sold to the retailers are included in MS's "sales numbers" right? And that accounts for most of the sales numbers, sorry if you're believing otherwise. You also realize that buying a PC in a store you're forced to have whatever version of Windows that's preinstalled right? You do also realize that the average consumer isn't a techie or a geek and won't remove that rubbish Windows 8 and go back to 7 right? Also I hope you realize that there are tons of sheep that shop on QVC and other home shopping networks that will buy any PC that the TV show tells them to buy. I heard that QVC had massive returns of Windows 8 computers from unhappy customers. You also realize (at least I hope) that MS exaggerates POS numbers right? I mean they said that the Surface RT tablet sold out the first day at their retail stores, LOL, yeah that's because MS had very little stock in the first place but they tried to keep that quiet until the news came out.

Who gives a hoot how much Windows 8 is "selling", that's not indicative of people dumping iPads or even Android tablets in favor of Windows 8 tablets. In fact, don't count on it. Bill Gates may be one of the riches men in the world but he's old and delusional and his prediction ain't gonna happen. :D

Same **** about osx man lol seems to me you just dont like windows ? About the sheeps well......

You have actually describe buying mac, hilarious.

----------

http://www.technightowl.com/2013/05/about-those-100-million-windows-8-sales/

Aslong is in peoples hand thats what matters ! lol i guess you guys think microsoft big seller is windows NOT.

TheHateMachine
May 8, 2013, 03:02 PM
Done. Atom powered tablets. Granted the horsepower isn't the same, but in day to day use you will never notice it.

I am interested to see what Silvermont will do with the Atom line. It looks like they are going to merge Atom and Medfield into the same line, sub in HD Integrated 4000+ instead of PowerVR and get even more power/less wattage. Sounds exciting... if the marketing data Intel has provided is actually true and not just smoke then Silvermont will shape up to be quite the big deal in Windows and Android devices.

Renzatic
May 8, 2013, 03:03 PM
Yes I agree about it being only half done, but by the same token I don't really see why Metro needs to exist when all they needed to do was work on making their desktop touch friendly. As for WinRT it needs to die a quick death, it will confuse consumers and fragment the market, it is a failed experiment that is dragging MS down.

WinRT the platform ended up being a giant waste of everyone's time. Now that Atom processors can just about match ARM chips in battery power, I can't think of a hugely compelling reason for MS to keep it around.

But I was talking about the WinRT API, which could eventually be the modern replacement for the still solid, but getting kinda long in the tooth Win32 API. Right now (much like everything to do with MS' tablet strategy) it's only halfway done, but it could end up being the true bridging point between mobile and the desktop. One API used for everything from dinky mobile apps on cheap phones all the way up to high end desktops using content creation programs.

MS already has all their platforms running the same core OS now, but to complete the unification, they need an API flexible enough to do everything from Angry Birds to 3DS Max. This could...should...be WinRT.

I think Metro was their attempt to "look" mobile, to look similar to their windows phones, to have a fresh and modern "mobile" look. But they needed to fully make the leap, not just put a "mobile" wrapper over the desktop.

Yup. The biggest problem with Win8 is that it's got the two environments that only interact with each other in the most basic ways. Thing is, as much as they should try to unify desktops, laptops, tablets, and phones together with the same OS and APIs, they shouldn't try to make one UI that fits all of them.

...because it can't be done.

The desktop as it is right now on Windows 8 is great for a keyboard and mouse on a big screen. Probably one of the best they've done. But it sucks on a tablet. All the UI bits and pieces are too small to see comfortably on an 8-10" screen, and are too little to hit with your finger. You can do it with a stylus, but that should be a productivity tool, not a necessary bit to navigate your UI.

Inversely, Metro sucks on desktop machines. Everything's too large, the apps are full screen, everything's generally a giant waste of space being used on a machine that can comfortably flit between applications nested on a single monitor.

So should they make the desktop more touch friendly? What could they do? Make the title bars huge, so you can hit the min/max/close buttons more easily with a fingertip? That'd be about as much a waste of space on a tablet as Metro is for a desktop machine. Windowed environments in general just don't work with touch.

Whatever the answer to the great mobile-PC divide is, it won't be a unified UI. I've come to realize that if you want the best experience possible, each platform has to have it's own way of interacting with it. Implementing a setup so that flipping from one platform to the other, being able to use the same app in two different environments comfortably, is MS' biggest challenge.

Honestly, I'm kinda interested in seeing what they come up with.

spinedoc77
May 8, 2013, 04:14 PM
I am interested to see what Silvermont will do with the Atom line. It looks like they are going to merge Atom and Medfield into the same line, sub in HD Integrated 4000+ instead of PowerVR and get even more power/less wattage. Sounds exciting... if the marketing data Intel has provided is actually true and not just smoke then Silvermont will shape up to be quite the big deal in Windows and Android devices.

Yeah I just read about Silvermont, I'm totally salivating for that to get here. IMO MS should have been smoking Android and iOS, but they made so many key mistakes. MS did not release an Atom tablet, they let the OEM's do it, and the OEM's in typical fashion took their time and ruined the buzz around windows 8 launch along with very buggy drivers and a chip on their shoulders. MS released the surface pro which is neither a good laptop nor a good tablet, and lets not forget the atrocity of a mistake with Windows RT. Couple all that with the Metro "wrapper" on the legacy desktop that is Win8 and it's no wonder that they are in the position they are in now.

I've stated right since the beginning, MS should have just released a kick ass Atom powered windows tablet and priced it exactly the same as an ipad then went on a marketing blitz about the differences between the 2, but still having the same thinness, weight, battery time, etc.

But back to silvermont, that's going to be incredible. Having a tablet the thinness and battery life of an ipad (or thinner with better battery life by then) AND having the horsepower of something like the surface pro.

TheHateMachine
May 8, 2013, 04:37 PM
Yeah I just read about Silvermont, I'm totally salivating for that to get here. IMO MS should have been smoking Android and iOS, but they made so many key mistakes. MS did not release an Atom tablet, they let the OEM's do it, and the OEM's in typical fashion took their time and ruined the buzz around windows 8 launch along with very buggy drivers and a chip on their shoulders. MS released the surface pro which is neither a good laptop nor a good tablet, and lets not forget the atrocity of a mistake with Windows RT. Couple all that with the Metro "wrapper" on the legacy desktop that is Win8 and it's no wonder that they are in the position they are in now.

I've stated right since the beginning, MS should have just released a kick ass Atom powered windows tablet and priced it exactly the same as an ipad then went on a marketing blitz about the differences between the 2, but still having the same thinness, weight, battery time, etc.

But back to silvermont, that's going to be incredible. Having a tablet the thinness and battery life of an ipad (or thinner with better battery life by then) AND having the horsepower of something like the surface pro.

I own the Surface RT and I like it but if it had an Atom that would be all the much better. That slick Surface design and build plus all the benefits of x86. However there is still a benefit to Windows RT devices. They are typically cheaper and they make great machines that have office and aren't under any threat of malicious software.

I honestly think Microsoft decided to go with an ARM based machine because it was cheaper and they were looking for a high margin iPad competitor. Plus they probably were under the impression that an Arm based Surface would cut into their sales of the Pro model (This is probably very true) I'm sure Atom chips would cost them more than the Tegra chips they got. I think I read somewhere that Nvidia stated they were let go at like $13 bucks per chip. We all know Intel isn't in the business of nearly giving their stuff away.

----------

The desktop as it is right now on Windows 8 is great for a keyboard and mouse on a big screen. Probably one of the best they've done. But it sucks on a tablet. All the UI bits and pieces are too small to see comfortably on an 8-10" screen, and are too little to hit with your finger. You can do it with a stylus, but that should be a productivity tool, not a necessary bit to navigate your UI.

Inversely, Metro sucks on desktop machines. Everything's too large, the apps are full screen, everything's generally a giant waste of space being used on a machine that can comfortably flit between applications nested on a single monitor.

So should they make the desktop more touch friendly? What could they do? Make the title bars huge, so you can hit the min/max/close buttons more easily with a fingertip? That'd be about as much a waste of space on a tablet as Metro is for a desktop machine. Windowed environments in general just don't work with touch.

Whatever the answer to the great mobile-PC divide is, it won't be a unified UI. I've come to realize that if you want the best experience possible, each platform has to have it's own way of interacting with it. Implementing a setup so that flipping from one platform to the other, being able to use the same app in two different environments comfortably, is MS' biggest challenge.

Honestly, I'm kinda interested in seeing what they come up with.

Supposedly they will be solving some nags with 8.1. I have heard of a few thing such as changing the scale in modern to having up to 4 metro applications tiled at once.

They could easily do a few things here or there to solve modern problems. It's new and it could be easy with them if they made the proper code concessions.

Desktop however is an aging beast that has just been ported and adapted and added on top of. They need to work on the resolution independence they have on modern and bring it to the archiac desktop. That, I believe would solve a lot of people's gripes.

spinedoc77
May 8, 2013, 04:58 PM
WinRT the platform ended up being a giant waste of everyone's time. Now that Atom processors can just about match ARM chips in battery power, I can't think of a hugely compelling reason for MS to keep it around.

But I was talking about the WinRT API, which could eventually be the modern replacement for the still solid, but getting kinda long in the tooth Win32 API. Right now (much like everything to do with MS' tablet strategy) it's only halfway done, but it could end up being the true bridging point between mobile and the desktop. One API used for everything from dinky mobile apps on cheap phones all the way up to high end desktops using content creation programs.

MS already has all their platforms running the same core OS now, but to complete the unification, they need an API flexible enough to do everything from Angry Birds to 3DS Max. This could...should...be WinRT.



Yup. The biggest problem with Win8 is that it's got the two environments that only interact with each other in the most basic ways. Thing is, as much as they should try to unify desktops, laptops, tablets, and phones together with the same OS and APIs, they shouldn't try to make one UI that fits all of them.

...because it can't be done.

The desktop as it is right now on Windows 8 is great for a keyboard and mouse on a big screen. Probably one of the best they've done. But it sucks on a tablet. All the UI bits and pieces are too small to see comfortably on an 8-10" screen, and are too little to hit with your finger. You can do it with a stylus, but that should be a productivity tool, not a necessary bit to navigate your UI.

Inversely, Metro sucks on desktop machines. Everything's too large, the apps are full screen, everything's generally a giant waste of space being used on a machine that can comfortably flit between applications nested on a single monitor.

So should they make the desktop more touch friendly? What could they do? Make the title bars huge, so you can hit the min/max/close buttons more easily with a fingertip? That'd be about as much a waste of space on a tablet as Metro is for a desktop machine. Windowed environments in general just don't work with touch.

Whatever the answer to the great mobile-PC divide is, it won't be a unified UI. I've come to realize that if you want the best experience possible, each platform has to have it's own way of interacting with it. Implementing a setup so that flipping from one platform to the other, being able to use the same app in two different environments comfortably, is MS' biggest challenge.

Honestly, I'm kinda interested in seeing what they come up with.

WinRT needs to die IMO, all aspects of it. Games and mobile apps can be programmed for windows, although it's true they may want to have some commonality for windows phone and windows tablets with full windows.

As for the UI I have no trouble whatsoever using my finger on the desktop on a 10.6" screen, but I do think the desktop needs to be a bit more finger friendly, but I don't think iOS or Android are necessarily "that" much better in terms of finger navigation, and if they are then the app/program suffers in functionality because of it.

BUT.... the caveat here is that 7-8" windows tablets are on the horizon, now the desktop on those will be completely horrible for touch navigation. It's another disaster waiting to happen because of MS constant shortsightedness.

I kind of agree, that a unified OS might just be unfeasible, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it either way. I know that on my windows tablet I very rarely touch Metro, using the windows desktop 99.999% of the time and am quite happy that way. My only gripes are the onscreen keyboard functionality and the overall DPI, especially with higher resolution screens like on the Pro. But yes I think not just resizing, but rethinking taskbar menus and such would go a VERY long way in making win8 useable on a touchscreen instead of junk like Metro.

----------

I own the Surface RT and I like it but if it had an Atom that would be all the much better. That slick Surface design and build plus all the benefits of x86. However there is still a benefit to Windows RT devices. They are typically cheaper and they make great machines that have office and aren't under any threat of malicious software.

I honestly think Microsoft decided to go with an ARM based machine because it was cheaper and they were looking for a high margin iPad competitor. Plus they probably were under the impression that an Arm based Surface would cut into their sales of the Pro model (This is probably very true) I'm sure Atom chips would cost them more than the Tegra chips they got. I think I read somewhere that Nvidia stated they were let go at like $13 bucks per chip. We all know Intel isn't in the business of nearly giving their stuff away.



The atom tablets are not much more than the RT ones, actually if memory serves me correctly they are at least about the same and in some cases even cheaper. I believe Asus, for example, had a very nice Atom tablet for $499, I owned it for a couple of weeks and it was a little beast.

I don't know, maybe RT would have made sense if it was priced at a MUCH lower price point, but then again maybe not. For better or for worse MS chief competition was and is iOS and Android and they were not going to come even close to beating them with RT. Now a full iteration of Windows, that's something to talk about. But MS did not capitalize on that incredible strength, if anything it seems they completely ignored it and continue to do so.

maxosx
May 8, 2013, 05:06 PM
Coming from Bill Gates I'm a bit taken aback. However they do have massive staying power, enabling them to ride things out. Yet I don't see it happening. I do hope I'm wrong and that at least MS becomes a third choice at some point.

But then again, no one expected IE to have the market share it has today. That's a browser I use on a PC, the same way I use Safari on my Macs. To visit the respective OEM's sites for downloads and such.

Otherwise for both platforms I use daily, nothing beats the speed and reliability of Google Chrome as my default browser.

mib1800
May 8, 2013, 09:45 PM
This kind of post is disturbing. I just love how some people seem to be upset at Apple dominating space in the tech world but here we are with a post like this that spells out that MS domination is the only domination that SHOULD exists. :rolleyes:
You as a consumer you should be happy that there are other choices outside of Microsoft. The world has gotten tired of being forced to use Windows and you are in another world if you think MS will always be dominant. They've monopolized the world enough. "Mac OS hasn't made a dent in Windows domination." Are you listening to yourself with a post like that? Windows comes preinstalled on any PC that is not a Mac. It's certainly isn't about choice, it's about cheap and if a person wants cheap Windows is the only option.


Take your Mac (running on MacOS) and plug into to a typical office environment. Can it still function when interfacing to office, ERP, finance, HR systems etc etc?

Well people are realizing that they don't need Windows to fulfill their needs and the iPad is the one that is being chosen by businesses, hospitals, banks, insurance agencies and the ever popular home user.

iPAD can replace Windows entirely?? Really? I ask again REALLY? :eek:


See, unlike MS who pushes Windows in the users face in order to maintain domination, Apple offers a product that people CHOOSE to use and it earns itself domination that way.

I am not that supportive of MS either. But the reality is that Windows is too entrenched. Sometimes it is just not about choosing what you like. It is about choosing what can work.

tech4all
May 8, 2013, 10:55 PM
You have actually describe buying mac, hilarious.

Guess it doesn't take much to amuse you.

HenryDJP
May 9, 2013, 01:01 AM
Take your Mac (running on MacOS) and plug into to a typical office environment. Can it still function when interfacing to office, ERP, finance, HR systems etc etc?




Hilarious post from you. Congrats to you for thinking it requires a Windows machine to run an office. The only reason a Mac couldn't interface with any of that would be due to the software being only written for Windows. But thanks, I don't need my Mac to run boring spreadsheets and Word docs like virtually all business environments do daily.
I just love how you Windows fans always get defensive and make this about Mac. I never brought up Mac. The discussion is about Tablets. It must really bother you to know that Bill Gates is not only delusional but a complete non-visionary for future tech. ;)

No problem though, since you brought up Mac I'll just use mine where no professional uses Windows, in a recording studio. You know? The place that record companies use to remaster ALL the commercial music you listen to? Yeah, that place, the place that only uses Macs and not Windows machines? Yeah, that place. :)

ReanimationN
May 9, 2013, 01:04 AM
The atom tablets are not much more than the RT ones, actually if memory serves me correctly they are at least about the same and in some cases even cheaper. I believe Asus, for example, had a very nice Atom tablet for $499, I owned it for a couple of weeks and it was a little beast.


Is that the Vivotab Smart (me400c)? I bought one this week and am quite disappointed in it. It's so frustratingly close to what I want... but it's just not quite there yet. I bought it hoping for a decent trade-off between size and portability, performance and x86 compatibility. I definitely got a nice, light tablet, but the Vivotab struggles so much with desktop apps that I may as well have bought an RT device. It runs Windows 8 apps pretty well (other than some apps that wouldn't start at all- e.g. one of the Youtube apps I tried), but desktop apps struggled big time. Accessing the iTunes Store effectively froze the tablet for a whole minute. I know iTunes is a ridiculous resource hog, but that seemed really poor, even for an Atom processor. Flash videos on some sites also struggle playing at resolutions beyond 360p. I suspect I may have a dud unit though in terms of performance though- it definitely has a dud screen (it's really yellow), so I'm going to exchange it and see if the next one I get is any better. It definitely misses quite a few of my taps in Windows 8 apps, plus some of my taps on the home button (one of the biggest reasons why I hate capacitive buttons).

I think Windows 8 tablets with the next generation Atom processors are going to be absolutely epic. The Atom just needs a performance boost and it will be perfect for tablets.

HenryDJP
May 9, 2013, 01:11 AM
I am not that supportive of MS either. But the reality is that Windows is too entrenched. Sometimes it is just not about choosing what you like. It is about choosing what can work.

Uh no, nice try though, for you it's about giving in an taking what's pushed at you when you as the consumer can easily vote with your own wallet. Since you seem to choose not to then you're just allowing yourself to be forced when there's plenty of ways out.
Other than any specific pieces of software for the particular environment you happen to be in there's nothing a Windows machine is more capable of than a Mac and as far as Office, most documents are being presented on cross platform documents such as PDF's. I know you desperately wish for the world to stay Windows dominant but it's no longer 1995 when Windows appeared to be the only system the world would be forced to use forever but that time has successfully began to fade. :)

Renzatic
May 9, 2013, 01:28 AM
Supposedly they will be solving some nags with 8.1. I have heard of a few thing such as changing the scale in modern to having up to 4 metro applications tiled at once.

Yeah...I dunno about the 4 Metro apps side by side thing. The current ratio works alright for multitasking between two apps, because it's easy to just side from one to the other without any effort. More than that, and the screen will become way too crowded without any one app being usable.

They could easily do a few things here or there to solve modern problems. It's new and it could be easy with them if they made the proper code concessions.

Other than expanding upon WinRT (the API just to clarify), I'd say most of the problems are UI related. The biggest problem most people have with Windows 8 is that it bounces you around to different versions of the same apps and settings depending on how you call them up. If you go to the settings from the charms menu, or call it from inside the new Start screen, it calls up the Metro version of the app. Do a search, and you'll get a mix of the old desktop versions, and the Metro ones. It's confusing as hell for people just starting out with it. MS needs to bring it all together and make the UI feel much more cohesive.

And the first way they'll do that is to not use fullscreen apps as the defaults on a desktop machine.

Desktop however is an aging beast that has just been ported and adapted and added on top of. They need to work on the resolution independence they have on modern and bring it to the archiac desktop. That, I believe would solve a lot of people's gripes.

The desktop could use some updating and a little TLC, but the concepts themselves are as fine now as they have been for the last 20 odd years. The only problem with it is it doesn't work well with touchscreens. I'll answer why, and what I think could be done when I reply to Spinedoc down below.

Renzatic
May 9, 2013, 02:00 AM
WinRT needs to die IMO, all aspects of it. Games and mobile apps can be programmed for windows, although it's true they may want to have some commonality for windows phone and windows tablets with full windows.

Having an API that can work just as well for building a mobile app as it does a full on high end desktop program would be a pretty nice thing to have. WinRT has the potential to be just that. It's only capable of cheesy mobile apps right now, but if MS expands upon it, it could be the perfect catch all solution, and a great replacement for Win32.

As for the UI I have no trouble whatsoever using my finger on the desktop on a 10.6" screen, but I do think the desktop needs to be a bit more finger friendly, but I don't think iOS or Android are necessarily "that" much better in terms of finger navigation, and if they are then the app/program suffers in functionality because of it.

...

I kind of agree, that a unified OS might just be unfeasible, I'm not quite sure how I feel about it either way. I know that on my windows tablet I very rarely touch Metro, using the windows desktop 99.999% of the time and am quite happy that way. My only gripes are the onscreen keyboard functionality and the overall DPI, especially with higher resolution screens like on the Pro. But yes I think not just resizing, but rethinking taskbar menus and such would go a VERY long way in making win8 useable on a touchscreen instead of junk like Metro.

I just don't think that a windows based UI works with fingers. All that dragging, docking, and resizing works great with a mouse, but doing all that on a small screened tablet is way too cumbersome.

You, I, and most everyone else on here are old hand computer geeks. We'll be willing to put up with the quirks and hiccups for the sake of added functionality. But it's still not ideal. A good UI needs to be both functional and easy to use. A desktop UI on a tablet is more the former, less the latter.

In my opinion, metro snapping is a great first step towards multitasking on a tablet. Being able to quarter dock (or half dock) two apps side by side is a handy feature to have. The only downside to it is you have to use a 16:9 screen to give all your apps the most room.

Take makes it easier to multitask between two apps, but what about people who use more? You could fix that with a virtual desktop type setup. Something sorta like mission control. You could have Metro Office and IE docked on one screen, and a file explorer opened on another.

And you launch apps or switch desktops by using the good old fashioned Windows taskbar. You know, I've always been of the option that if MS kept the taskbar visible at all times, no one would have any problems going to a separate screen to launch apps. It and the Start screen could be the bridging points between a desktop UI a touched based one. The only difference between the two would be how it treats apps. Desktops launch windows when you click on an icon (or tile), tablets launch them fullscreen and dockable. Both of them manage open apps or launch new ones using the taskbar, and both go to the Start screen when you click the Windows button.

This way, you'd have the same OS running the same programs, but the UI is tailored slightly different depending on what it's running on. With a bit of polish and shine, it could work fairly well. You'd have something that functions a little differently, but still has enough of the same anchor points so it doesn't feel like you're moving to an entirely different OS.

Or in short, it's unified where it needs to be unified, different where it needs to be different.

edit: If you want to know what I'm getting at, just look at Gnome 3.8 on Linux. It's just shy of being a perfect touch/mouse unified OS.

BUT.... the caveat here is that 7-8" windows tablets are on the horizon, now the desktop on those will be completely horrible for touch navigation. It's another disaster waiting to happen because of MS constant shortsightedness.

Yeah, I'm not getting the 8" tablet thing at all. I just don't see it working unless people stick to Metro 100% of the time. The only good point about it is MS is making Win 8.1 run even thinner so it'll still be smooth on lower end hardware. That's a bonus at least, but...ehhh...

spinedoc77
May 9, 2013, 10:27 AM
Is that the Vivotab Smart (me400c)? I bought one this week and am quite disappointed in it. It's so frustratingly close to what I want... but it's just not quite there yet. I bought it hoping for a decent trade-off between size and portability, performance and x86 compatibility. I definitely got a nice, light tablet, but the Vivotab struggles so much with desktop apps that I may as well have bought an RT device. It runs Windows 8 apps pretty well (other than some apps that wouldn't start at all- e.g. one of the Youtube apps I tried), but desktop apps struggled big time. Accessing the iTunes Store effectively froze the tablet for a whole minute. I know iTunes is a ridiculous resource hog, but that seemed really poor, even for an Atom processor. Flash videos on some sites also struggle playing at resolutions beyond 360p. I suspect I may have a dud unit though in terms of performance though- it definitely has a dud screen (it's really yellow), so I'm going to exchange it and see if the next one I get is any better. It definitely misses quite a few of my taps in Windows 8 apps, plus some of my taps on the home button (one of the biggest reasons why I hate capacitive buttons).

I think Windows 8 tablets with the next generation Atom processors are going to be absolutely epic. The Atom just needs a performance boost and it will be perfect for tablets.

That's very odd, the vivotab I had was a little monster, it ate up youtube and anything on the desktop I threw at it, including PDF editing, photoshop, firefox with 10-15 tabs open, etc etc. I had iTunes installed, but honestly only opened it once or twice but it seemed to run ok. Flash was quite nice as well, no issues other than the issues Flash brings to any PC.

I ended up with a Lenovo thinkpad though, as I needed the 3g connectivity and wanted the pen/digitizer. I've tried/owned almost all the current Atom tablets out there and I owned the surface pro for a couple of weeks as well. It's pretty transparent having an Atom tablet for the most part, you would never know you aren't on a desktop. The times you do it's mostly writing large files where the Atom does slow down quite a bit, and of course gaming is pretty bad.

But hopefully these and your issues will be addressed soon with the new Atom and Ivy Bridge CPU's that are coming out soon, these are just growing pains of a new market. It's like picking up an ipad 1 or 2 and trying to run certain apps on them.

----------

Having an API that can work just as well for building a mobile app as it does a full on high end desktop program would be a pretty nice thing to have. WinRT has the potential to be just that. It's only capable of cheesy mobile apps right now, but if MS expands upon it, it could be the perfect catch all solution, and a great replacement for Win32.



I just don't think that a windows based UI works with fingers. All that dragging, docking, and resizing works great with a mouse, but doing all that on a small screened tablet is way too cumbersome.

You, I, and most everyone else on here are old hand computer geeks. We'll be willing to put up with the quirks and hiccups for the sake of added functionality. But it's still not ideal. A good UI needs to be both functional and easy to use. A desktop UI on a tablet is more the former, less the latter.

In my opinion, metro snapping is a great first step towards multitasking on a tablet. Being able to quarter dock (or half dock) two apps side by side is a handy feature to have. The only downside to it is you have to use a 16:9 screen to give all your apps the most room.

Take makes it easier to multitask between two apps, but what about people who use more? You could fix that with a virtual desktop type setup. Something sorta like mission control. You could have Metro Office and IE docked on one screen, and a file explorer opened on another.

And you launch apps or switch desktops by using the good old fashioned Windows taskbar. You know, I've always been of the option that if MS kept the taskbar visible at all times, no one would have any problems going to a separate screen to launch apps. It and the Start screen could be the bridging points between a desktop UI a touched based one. The only difference between the two would be how it treats apps. Desktops launch windows when you click on an icon (or tile), tablets launch them fullscreen and dockable. Both of them manage open apps or launch new ones using the taskbar, and both go to the Start screen when you click the Windows button.

This way, you'd have the same OS running the same programs, but the UI is tailored slightly different depending on what it's running on. With a bit of polish and shine, it could work fairly well. You'd have something that functions a little differently, but still has enough of the same anchor points so it doesn't feel like you're moving to an entirely different OS.

Or in short, it's unified where it needs to be unified, different where it needs to be different.

edit: If you want to know what I'm getting at, just look at Gnome 3.8 on Linux. It's just shy of being a perfect touch/mouse unified OS.



Yeah, I'm not getting the 8" tablet thing at all. I just don't see it working unless people stick to Metro 100% of the time. The only good point about it is MS is making Win 8.1 run even thinner so it'll still be smooth on lower end hardware. That's a bonus at least, but...ehhh...

Yeah maybe it's just my old computer geek side of me that doesn't mind using the desktop on a tablet, I can see that being part of the truth. Honestly I don't mind it that much, even working with files in file manager and such, but that may still just be the tech side of me and years of training. Some things you don't even know until they are invented, who would ever have thought that some of the ways we do things on the iPad would be so intuitive before they were invented?

But things like metro snapping don't make sense to me in that they seem like steps backwards. I mean we have windows snapping on the desktop already, and if I want I can have 10 windows open, arguably useless but still I can do it if I want to, why limit myself?

Don't get me started on the Metro start screen, it's one step away from being useless IMO. Hey look, I'm more than willing to give Metro a chance, but it is just so badly thought out, and you know I'm a self admitted windows fan boy and I still hate Metro. The start button/menu system is so much superior when you have dozens if not hundreds of programs and each program has it's own subprograms, and also for organizing media, documents, shortcuts, etc. Doubly so for the concept of the desktop which was invented as a "desktop", something to mimic your physical desktop where you might have documents and files laid out in front of you. You can't get by simple human functionality, no matter where tech goes our physical needs and functionality remain the same.

Great discussion BTW.

edit: Just to add, if MS simply added something as incredibly stupidly simple as folders in the Metro start screen I think much of my disgust would go away. You just can't organize anything efficiently there, and this seems like a common theme in Metro, another example would be "pinning"favorites in Metro internet explorer.

APlotdevice
May 9, 2013, 03:12 PM
Yeah maybe it's just my old computer geek side of me that doesn't mind using the desktop on a tablet, I can see that being part of the truth. Honestly I don't mind it that much, even working with files in file manager and such, but that may still just be the tech side of me and years of training. Some things you don't even know until they are invented, who would ever have thought that some of the ways we do things on the iPad would be so intuitive before they were invented?

But things like metro snapping don't make sense to me in that they seem like steps backwards. I mean we have windows snapping on the desktop already, and if I want I can have 10 windows open, arguably useless but still I can do it if I want to, why limit myself?

Don't get me started on the Metro start screen, it's one step away from being useless IMO. Hey look, I'm more than willing to give Metro a chance, but it is just so badly thought out, and you know I'm a self admitted windows fan boy and I still hate Metro. The start button/menu system is so much superior when you have dozens if not hundreds of programs and each program has it's own subprograms, and also for organizing media, documents, shortcuts, etc. Doubly so for the concept of the desktop which was invented as a "desktop", something to mimic your physical desktop where you might have documents and files laid out in front of you. You can't get by simple human functionality, no matter where tech goes our physical needs and functionality remain the same.


I agree with most of this. IMO the "modern" interface (ie metro) should have been an enhanced desktop... as in the icon space that appears below folders and application windows... not a start menu replacement.

SlCKB0Y
May 10, 2013, 03:29 AM
For me iOS and Android were stop gap measures before we had hardware capable of running a real OS like windows or OSx.


I've read a lot of these kinds of posts from you and I would argue that your requirements are relatively rare. The single purpose nature of the apps, simplicity, and always-on nature associated with these devices is what made them ridiculously popular in the first place. A lot of the things that you want in a tablet seem either to run counter to this or could only exist in a perfect world.

Don't forget, Microsoft had nearly a decade of attempts to do this stuff before Apple released the iPad and they failed not just on the hardware side but also on the software side.

Bottom line is it is not possible to make an OS or app which deals with both touch and mouse input without some kind of compromise.

The same kinds of compromise need to be made with hardware. For what you're suggesting to work, MS is going to need to make the hardware requirements of their desktop OS remain absolutely static (or reduce significantly) for a good number of years whilst x86 hardware catches up to ARM in terms of power consumption and heat emission as even todays Atoms are not even close yet.

The x86 OS which is most close today to what is required would be ChromeOS. I'm pretty interested to see what happens with this over the next few years.

spinedoc77
May 10, 2013, 09:39 AM
I've read a lot of these kinds of posts from you and I would argue that your requirements are relatively rare. The single purpose nature of the apps, simplicity, and always-on nature associated with these devices is what made them ridiculously popular in the first place. A lot of the things that you want in a tablet seem either to run counter to this or could only exist in a perfect world.

Don't forget, Microsoft had nearly a decade of attempts to do this stuff before Apple released the iPad and they failed not just on the hardware side but also on the software side.

Bottom line is it is not possible to make an OS or app which deals with both touch and mouse input without some kind of compromise.

The same kinds of compromise need to be made with hardware. For what you're suggesting to work, MS is going to need to make the hardware requirements of their desktop OS remain absolutely static (or reduce significantly) for a good number of years whilst x86 hardware catches up to ARM in terms of power consumption and heat emission as even todays Atoms are not even close yet.

The x86 OS which is most close today to what is required would be ChromeOS. I'm pretty interested to see what happens with this over the next few years.

Great discussion. IMO you are correct, MS got this wrong for many years, although we can't necessarily blame MS without also blaming technology, the form factor and battery life just wasn't there. Apple changed the game by concentrating on these things, but make no mistake, iOS was invented in part due to hardware limitations, it was an OS which could be instant on and use very little battery life.

My main point is that if you can have a full OS, one that can connect and interface with the vast majority of technology, can do things like run any of the millions of USB devices out there, can run any of the tens of millions of legacy software programs, can hook up to very propietary systems like for example in healthcare, etc etc. If you can have an OS like that AND have the battery life, form factor, instant on, etc etc of iOS, then why wouldn't you? I mean if Apple came out with OSx for the ipad tomorrow would you argue against it?

I think that future is here today, there is no more need for iOS, it has served its purpose. iOS not being absorbed into OSx has more to do with not cannibalizing laptop sales IMO. Also if what you say is true, that we don't need a full OS for our mobile needs, to some degree the question that begs to be asked is why didn't Laptops develop with more simple OS'? I know it's a more complex question, and of course technology plays a role in it, but it's still interesting to consider, heck why didn't Apple put iOS on all of their laptops? This whole "but tablets fill a different need than a laptop" cries don't make sense to me, my windows tablet has replaced my laptop FULLY, I have absolutely no need for a laptop, that's something the ipad could never do, the ipad was always a "third device".

I won't make believe Windows 8 is ready to marry mouse and touch, it's not, but it's also not as bad as many make it out to be and I disagree, being able to switch between a mouse and touch depending on my need is incredibly incredibly powerful IMO and for my uses.

Essenar
May 10, 2013, 03:16 PM
There's been a lot of stones thrown, so let's see if we can take the stones back and get some real facts in the air:

Walk around any professional or industrial climate with thousands of workstations. Tell me what operating system is on those workstations and then sit there and tell me he's wrong.

The money in any technology industry isn't in consumers but in large scale business and industry use. A new school decides to open a lab inside a newly built library, they're going to need potentially thousands of workstations. Student accessed, facility, staff workstations and machines for an IT department. What do they use? Windows.

Point out Apple OSX Server and show me how effective it is. Or Google Android server. Show me, physically, how an iPad will be a useful device in those circumstances.

The future of tablet use is in a lot more dynamic uses for a tablet. You think Google Drive is a sufficient replacement for Excel? The hard drive cable in my MacBook fried and I had to survive on Numbers and Google Drive for a few days (iOS and Google Docs from a computer I had an extra of that didn't have Office) and I almost died. Trying to do linear regression or standard deviations or XY scatter plots with those applications was a headache. It took hours.

Trying to type a lab report on Google Drive? It's useful for collaboration but when you get to formatting and columns, you'd better copy that text over to Word 2010 or 2011 or your paper is going to look like crap.

Professional and industrial use is going to change the demand in tablets. People are going to need more functions to use a tablet for work and that influence is going to carry over to the mainstream market.

Eventually, people are going to want windowed multi-tasking on a tablet, a full on Office experience with formulas, plotting, XY scattering and copy/paste capabilities. People are going to want a single file system that's accessible by multiple applications. Android is closer to that, WAY closer to that than iOS but the problem with Android is fragmented third party support. Applications just aren't as good on Android as they are on iOS. And iOS is too 'dumb' of a tablet OS.

I love my iPad but it feels like a child's toy compared to Android tablets. Compared to Windows? It's like an 8" iPod Touch. And people don't want an 8-10" MP3 player with Candy Crush on it. At least, not in the future they won't. In 2014-2015, when people pay $500 for a tablet, if they get an oversized iPod Touch they're going to be very disappointed. Especially when you have a 10" tablet from Microsoft that has full Microsoft Office, the ability to code Java/Python, edit photos with Photoshop.

ravenvii
May 10, 2013, 05:44 PM
Eventually, people are going to want windowed multi-tasking on a tablet, a full on Office experience with formulas, plotting, XY scattering and copy/paste capabilities. People are going to want a single file system that's accessible by multiple applications. Android is closer to that, WAY closer to that than iOS but the problem with Android is fragmented third party support. Applications just aren't as good on Android as they are on iOS. And iOS is too 'dumb' of a tablet OS.

I love my iPad but it feels like a child's toy compared to Android tablets. Compared to Windows? It's like an 8" iPod Touch. And people don't want an 8-10" MP3 player with Candy Crush on it. At least, not in the future they won't. In 2014-2015, when people pay $500 for a tablet, if they get an oversized iPod Touch they're going to be very disappointed. Especially when you have a 10" tablet from Microsoft that has full Microsoft Office, the ability to code Java/Python, edit photos with Photoshop.

Tablets with a full-featured OS has been out for 10 years before the iPad. Yes, they were heavy and clunky in the early years, but they got pretty decent, hardware-wise about a year before the iPad was introduced.

You and I know what happened.

What you think people want aren't facts -- they're your opinions.

Careful when you start your post with a "I'm telling the facts, and they are..."

0dev
May 10, 2013, 05:53 PM
The problem with that is most people don't need a traditional PC for their needs. And those that do own one or are issued one for work. That is not to say that PCs will ever go away, but it'll be tough for them to 'make a comeback.'

Another issue is that PCs will never be more mobile than smartphones or tablets. But if consumer interest shifts to creating documents and serious typing, all these fancy companies will come up w/ a suitable solution to typing.

But if you're carrying around a 10 inch tablet with a keyboard... why not just get a laptop? You can get one for the same price and it has a lot more utility. If what you want is proper computer functionality a laptop will obviously deliver that a lot better than any tablet.

APlotdevice
May 10, 2013, 06:09 PM
But if you're carrying around a 10 inch tablet with a keyboard... why not just get a laptop? You can get one for the same price and it has a lot more utility. If what you want is proper computer functionality a laptop will obviously deliver that a lot better than any tablet.

As I've probably said half a billion times now, with a tablet the keyboard is only there if and when you need it.

And since who you were quoting said "most people", a physical keyboard probably isn't even going to be present in the first place. The overwhelming majority of consumers are not power users. They don't program, write long documents, etc etc. Tablets like the iPad are perfectly adequate for them.

0dev
May 10, 2013, 06:14 PM
As I've probably said half a billion times now, with a tablet the keyboard is only there if and when you need it.

And since who you were quoting said "most people", a physical keyboard probably isn't even going to be present in the first place. The overwhelming majority of consumers are not power users. Tablets like the iPad are perfectly adequate for them.

Yes but the appeal of these Windows tablets is that they do both the light media and internet functionality and the heavy proper computing stuff. That's why Gates thinks people will switch. I'm questioning why he thinks that when customers who want that functionality can just buy laptops. Especially since they tried Windows tablets back in the early 2000's and look at how well that went.

And having to detach and reattach your keyboard just seems like an unnecessary hassle to me.

spinedoc77
May 10, 2013, 08:01 PM
But if you're carrying around a 10 inch tablet with a keyboard... why not just get a laptop? You can get one for the same price and it has a lot more utility. If what you want is proper computer functionality a laptop will obviously deliver that a lot better than any tablet.

This is kind of insane that people really keep asking this. Would a laptop with "more utility" function as a tablet? I find it hard to find any increased utility from a laptop, at least comparing apples to apples which would be an ultrabook to a tablet as I'm not talking about comparing a Razer Blade to a tablet. But I sure can list a long list of increased utility from a tablet.

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Yes but the appeal of these Windows tablets is that they do both the light media and internet functionality and the heavy proper computing stuff. That's why Gates thinks people will switch. I'm questioning why he thinks that when customers who want that functionality can just buy laptops. Especially since they tried Windows tablets back in the early 2000's and look at how well that went.

And having to detach and reattach your keyboard just seems like an unnecessary hassle to me.

Why wouldn't a consumer want a device that acts BOTH as a tablet and a laptop instead of just a laptop? Windows tablets back in the 2000s are not a valid comparison IMO, they were slow, had poor battery life, bad UI, thick and heavy. It took Apple genius to show us what a true modern tablet was in terms of hardware. But now that we have crossed that technological hurdle it's a different story. Hopefully MS capitalizes on that this year and next though and they don't screw it up.

aneftp
May 10, 2013, 10:09 PM
Bill Gated has got to realize its a different world now.

Everything has gone mobile the past 3-4 years. Consoles like the Wii U are struggling. I imagine the new Xbox 720 and ps4 will meet the same fate.

Windows phone has been out 2.5 years are barely made a dent. Windows phone is so locked down like iOS. And apple fans are loyal. I cannot imagine many iOS users switching to windows phone cause they trade one locked down OS for another.

Android users like to customize and won't switch cause windows phone os is locked down.

I believe blackberry users and windows users are competing for a distant 3rd place.

0dev
May 11, 2013, 05:20 AM
This is kind of insane that people really keep asking this. Would a laptop with "more utility" function as a tablet? I find it hard to find any increased utility from a laptop, at least comparing apples to apples which would be an ultrabook to a tablet as I'm not talking about comparing a Razer Blade to a tablet. But I sure can list a long list of increased utility from a tablet.

Tablets have no real extra functionality over laptops, they're just more convenient and fun for content consumption and they do that well. But everything a tablet can do can be done better on a proper laptop and like I said, if a user doesn't want just content consumption, but also professional computing features, they're better off with a laptop.

Windows tablets back in the 2000s are not a valid comparison IMO, they were slow, had poor battery life, bad UI

Which is different from Windows 8 tablets how? :p

spinedoc77
May 11, 2013, 09:27 AM
Tablets have no real extra functionality over laptops, they're just more convenient and fun for content consumption and they do that well. But everything a tablet can do can be done better on a proper laptop and like I said, if a user doesn't want just content consumption, but also professional computing features, they're better off with a laptop.



Which is different from Windows 8 tablets how? :p

I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, lol. For the obvious impaired though obviously they have better battery life, are thinner, weigh less, etc., the atom powered ones are at the very least exactly on par with the new ipads.

As for a tablet not having any "real" functionality over laptops that's nuts. Any type of artwork or graphical work benefits immensely, in fact a laptop is much much less than functional in this aspect. Taking notes is another example, One Note on a windows tablet is a dream come true. Healthcare applications, doing rounds and making patient notes while being mobile, yeah try and lug that laptop cart around a hospital wing. Marking up x-rays and MRI's on a tablet, especially in front of a patient or other doctor. I can come up with a TON more increased functionality, as I'm sure other users can chime in.

The ONLY functionality I can think of with a laptop is if you have a larger one with a full sized keyboard, and in some cases with heavy text input I could see a user choosing a laptop over a tablet, although tablets such as the surface pro and simply purchasing a bluetooth keyboard neatly solve even this problem. That's the only example I can think of that can be "done better on a proper laptop", and even that's quite arguable.

Still I always get confused why some argue against windows tablets, but love their ipads. Today's windows tablets have the same thinness, weight, battery life, etc of today's ipads, that's why I have a hard time understanding that.

0dev
May 11, 2013, 12:09 PM
I'm going to assume you are being sarcastic, lol. For the obvious impaired though obviously they have better battery life, are thinner, weigh less, etc., the atom powered ones are at the very least exactly on par with the new ipads.

They still have a poor battery life and terrible UI though.

As for a tablet not having any "real" functionality over laptops that's nuts. Any type of artwork or graphical work benefits immensely, in fact a laptop is much much less than functional in this aspect.

Do Windows RT tablets even have the ability to run full Photoshop? If not I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Taking notes is another example, One Note on a windows tablet is a dream come true.

You think a tablet is better for taking notes than a laptop? What? I assume you're being sarcastic there.

Healthcare applications, doing rounds and making patient notes while being mobile, yeah try and lug that laptop cart around a hospital wing.

Could just as easily be done on a smartphone but yes, in that tiny little niche, tablets are probably better than laptops.

The ONLY functionality I can think of with a laptop is if you have a larger one with a full sized keyboard, and in some cases with heavy text input I could see a user choosing a laptop over a tablet, although tablets such as the surface pro and simply purchasing a bluetooth keyboard neatly solve even this problem. That's the only example I can think of that can be "done better on a proper laptop", and even that's quite arguable.

If you want to run full desktop apps and do a lot of typing, a laptop is better. Power users who want more computing functionality would undoubtedly prefer a full desktop OS with full desktop apps. Windows RT could have fit that need on a tablet if Microsoft hadn't crippled it. Yet another stupid decision from them.

Still I always get confused why some argue against windows tablets, but love their ipads. Today's windows tablets have the same thinness, weight, battery life, etc of today's ipads, that's why I have a hard time understanding that.

Windows RT should never have been made, it's a pointless OS as it stands right now. If Microsoft wanted to make the OS mimic Windows 8 they should have let it run full Windows apps (especially something as basic as proper desktop Office, come on Microsoft, that's one of your biggest cash cows!) but since it doesn't it's an utterly worthless OS.

iPads and Android tablets are miles ahead of current Windows RT tablets. And let's not forget that the Microsoft Surface also costs a lot more than its competitors despite offering reduced functionality.

spinedoc77
May 11, 2013, 01:16 PM
They still have a poor battery life and terrible UI though.

Battery life is as good or better than the ipad on the atom powered units, so that's false. The UI being terrible is arguable, I find the ipads UI fairly terrible, but that's of course user opinion, I far prefer Windows on my tablet.

Do Windows RT tablets even have the ability to run full Photoshop? If not I'm gonna have to disagree with you there.

Windows RT is an abomination that was born dead. My windows tablet on the other hand quite nicely runs Photoshop. I wouldn't personally include Windows RT in any conversation I had and the sooner it dies the better. There are lots of reviews out there showing photoshop on a windows tablet.

You think a tablet is better for taking notes than a laptop? What? I assume you're being sarcastic there.

In certain situations a huge YES. You can take hand written notes, which are extremely useful in lecture type situations, or situations where you don't have access to a desk or a lap, etc etc. Although if you do need a good keyboard once again that is an easy option so it's a moot point for typing on a laptop, we need to get by that point because it isn't a good one, it's a much better point if you wanted to compare a laptop to an ipad.

Could just as easily be done on a smartphone but yes, in that tiny little niche, tablets are probably better than laptops.



If you want to run full desktop apps and do a lot of typing, a laptop is better. Power users who want more computing functionality would undoubtedly prefer a full desktop OS with full desktop apps. Windows RT could have fit that need on a tablet if Microsoft hadn't crippled it. Yet another stupid decision from them.

Why is a laptop better? You can use a keyboard and mouse on a tablet. Desktop is a different story and I'm not even introducing that debate here. I can run full desktop apps on my tablet though if I needed that in a pinch. If I want to do a lot of typing I can bring along a keyboard. That's been your only point about a laptop, the keyboard.

Windows RT should never have been made, it's a pointless OS as it stands right now. If Microsoft wanted to make the OS mimic Windows 8 they should have let it run full Windows apps (especially something as basic as proper desktop Office, come on Microsoft, that's one of your biggest cash cows!) but since it doesn't it's an utterly worthless OS.

100% fully agree with you!!!

iPads and Android tablets are miles ahead of current Windows RT tablets. And let's not forget that the Microsoft Surface also costs a lot more than its competitors despite offering reduced functionality.

Agree with you on RT, also agree with you on MS surface, I'm not a big fan personally. But when you get to the atom powered windows tablets the tables get turned and IMO they are MILES ahead of android and iOS. Once again that's for MY needs and uses.

Renzatic
May 11, 2013, 01:38 PM
They still have a poor battery life and terrible UI though.

Atom processor equipped tablets can run Win8 about 8-9 hours on a charge. It's not up to the usual 10-12 you get out of tablets, but it's within spitting distance, and it's only gonna improve over the next couple of years.

Though I do agree about the UI. MS still has tons of work that needs to be done before anyone can consider Windows touch friendly.

sentinelsx
May 11, 2013, 01:51 PM
There's been a lot of stones thrown, so let's see if we can take the stones back and get some real facts in the air:

Walk around any professional or industrial climate with thousands of workstations. Tell me what operating system is on those workstations and then sit there and tell me he's wrong.

The money in any technology industry isn't in consumers but in large scale business and industry use. A new school decides to open a lab inside a newly built library, they're going to need potentially thousands of workstations. Student accessed, facility, staff workstations and machines for an IT department. What do they use? Windows.

Point out Apple OSX Server and show me how effective it is. Or Google Android server. Show me, physically, how an iPad will be a useful device in those circumstances.

The future of tablet use is in a lot more dynamic uses for a tablet. You think Google Drive is a sufficient replacement for Excel? The hard drive cable in my MacBook fried and I had to survive on Numbers and Google Drive for a few days (iOS and Google Docs from a computer I had an extra of that didn't have Office) and I almost died. Trying to do linear regression or standard deviations or XY scatter plots with those applications was a headache. It took hours.

Trying to type a lab report on Google Drive? It's useful for collaboration but when you get to formatting and columns, you'd better copy that text over to Word 2010 or 2011 or your paper is going to look like crap.

Professional and industrial use is going to change the demand in tablets. People are going to need more functions to use a tablet for work and that influence is going to carry over to the mainstream market.

Eventually, people are going to want windowed multi-tasking on a tablet, a full on Office experience with formulas, plotting, XY scattering and copy/paste capabilities. People are going to want a single file system that's accessible by multiple applications. Android is closer to that, WAY closer to that than iOS but the problem with Android is fragmented third party support. Applications just aren't as good on Android as they are on iOS. And iOS is too 'dumb' of a tablet OS.

I love my iPad but it feels like a child's toy compared to Android tablets. Compared to Windows? It's like an 8" iPod Touch. And people don't want an 8-10" MP3 player with Candy Crush on it. At least, not in the future they won't. In 2014-2015, when people pay $500 for a tablet, if they get an oversized iPod Touch they're going to be very disappointed. Especially when you have a 10" tablet from Microsoft that has full Microsoft Office, the ability to code Java/Python, edit photos with Photoshop.

Just because numbers cannot do that today doesn't mean it won't do it tomorrow. I would rather have mobile apps get strong and become desktop equivalents then having to be forced to lug with me a bulky, noisy, and hot laptop. I don't want that. Not one bit.

spinedoc77
May 11, 2013, 02:10 PM
Atom processor equipped tablets can run Win8 about 8-9 hours on a charge. It's not up to the usual 10-12 you get out of tablets, but it's within spitting distance, and it's only gonna improve over the next couple of years.

Though I do agree about the UI. MS still has tons of work that needs to be done before anyone can consider Windows touch friendly.

Some atom tablets do better than this. I've seen rundown tests of the Vivotab smart for example over 10+ hours. This is with what is basically an old netbook CPU shoehorned to be dual core, this year Intel had a fire lit under them and the battery life we will see later this year and next year will be pretty insane, coupled with much more CPU power and desktop graphics capability.


I've never ever had an issue with running out of juice on my thinkpad tablet 2, and I use it a ton during the day. It's really surreal to me that I'm actually able to use windows for 10 hours without ever having to plug in. I've seen reviews of the TPT2 lasting almost 12 hours (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/tablets/381466/lenovo-thinkpad-tablet-2/2).

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...having to be forced to lug with me a bulky, noisy, and hot laptop. I don't want that. Not one bit.

Wait, isn't that the entire point of a windows tablet? :confused::confused:

Michael Goff
May 11, 2013, 03:11 PM
Some atom tablets do better than this. I've seen rundown tests of the Vivotab smart for example over 10+ hours. This is with what is basically an old netbook CPU shoehorned to be dual core, this year Intel had a fire lit under them and the battery life we will see later this year and next year will be pretty insane, coupled with much more CPU power and desktop graphics capability.


I've never ever had an issue with running out of juice on my thinkpad tablet 2, and I use it a ton during the day. It's really surreal to me that I'm actually able to use windows for 10 hours without ever having to plug in. I've seen reviews of the TPT2 lasting almost 12 hours (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/tablets/381466/lenovo-thinkpad-tablet-2/2).

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Wait, isn't that the entire point of a windows tablet? :confused::confused:

I have to agree, Silvermont will be awesome for the atom-tablets. With any luck, it'll finally give the atom the graphics punch it's needed sorely.

0dev
May 11, 2013, 03:44 PM
I had an Atom netbook running Windows before that had horrid battery life. If these tablets are improved that's awesome.

I disagree handwriting on a touchscreen is a good way to take notes, but then that's me personally. I far prefer keyboards. I get on fine with touchscreen keyboards usually, especially if I can swipe, but when I'm taking notes in lectures and especially if I'm writing full essays, I far prefer the ability to touch type and you just cannot do that on any touchscreen keyboard no matter how good it is. Plus typing on a proper physical keyboard is always going to be more accurate and, for me at least, usually a lot faster too if it's a full sized one on a laptop. So for me a laptop will trump a tablet every time for note taking. Plus a laptop makes it far easier to quickly check the internet discreetly :p

I also hold to the opinion that carrying around a separate keyboard and mouse for a tablet would just be annoying and I'd far rather carry around a laptop.

However, this thread has actually got me interested in Windows tablets now though... if they make a cheap one akin to the Nexus 7 running full Windows (none of that RT BS) maybe I'll take a look. Having a full desktop OS on a tablet but also having a tablet friendly UI is very appealing to me. But considering I could easily install full Ubuntu on my Nexus 7 if I wanted it'd have to be a pretty good tablet.

Night Spring
May 11, 2013, 06:55 PM
Plus a laptop makes it far easier to quickly check the internet discreetly :p

Not sure why a laptop would be more discreet than a tablet. Unless you mean that on a laptop, it would be easier to switch quickly between the web browser and the main thing you are supposed to be doing?

I also hold to the opinion that carrying around a separate keyboard and mouse for a tablet would just be annoying and I'd far rather carry around a laptop.

I do agree that carrying a separate keyboard for a tablet is a drag -- I started out by using an Apple Bluetooth keyboard with my iPad, but it didn't take long before the keyboard started being left at home. However, what I end up doing when I need my laptop is I end up carrying both my MacBook Air *and* my iPad. Sure, I *could* read my ebooks and Instapaper articles on my Air, but it's just so much more comfortable reading them on my iPad. A quick search for nearby restaurants to pick a place for dinner, some casual games to while the time away on the bus... all much easier to flip out my iPad than to drag out my Air.

Now, Windows 8 tablets like the Surface are supposed to bridge the gap between my iPad and the Air how? Well, those Win8 tablets that are just as light as the iPad presumably have about 9-10 inch screens, correct? So when you hook up the keyboard, you end up with a tiny laptop -- I'd rather use my 13 inch Air. On the other hand, Win8 devices that make a decent laptop, those with screens at least 11 inches and above, are heavier than the iPad, thus making a lousy tablet, am I right?

I do believe that laptops and tablets will eventually converge -- technology will eventually get to the point where we can have light-weight, 12-13 inch tablets that will be great laptops too. But right now, I prefer carrying around both my iPad and Air, even if a single Win8 device might be lighter than the two combined. Because with the iPad and the Air, I have a great laptop and a great tablet. With Win8, I get either a good tablet and a mediocre laptop, or vice versa.

0dev
May 11, 2013, 07:13 PM
Not sure why a laptop would be more discreet than a tablet. Unless you mean that on a laptop, it would be easier to switch quickly between the web browser and the main thing you are supposed to be doing?

Yeah it's quicker to switch windows, with a tablet it takes longer and looks a bit more obvious. It was just a joke really.

I do agree that carrying a separate keyboard for a tablet is a drag -- I started out by using an Apple Bluetooth keyboard with my iPad, but it didn't take long before the keyboard started being left at home. However, what I end up doing when I need my laptop is I end up carrying both my MacBook Air *and* my iPad. Sure, I *could* read my ebooks and Instapaper articles on my Air, but it's just so much more comfortable reading them on my iPad. A quick search for nearby restaurants to pick a place for dinner, some casual games to while the time away on the bus... all much easier to flip out my iPad than to drag out my Air.

Now, Windows 8 tablets like the Surface are supposed to bridge the gap between my iPad and the Air how? Well, those Win8 tablets that are just as light as the iPad presumably have about 9-10 inch screens, correct? So when you hook up the keyboard, you end up with a tiny laptop -- I'd rather use my 13 inch Air. On the other hand, Win8 devices that make a decent laptop, those with screens at least 11 inches and above, are heavier than the iPad, thus making a lousy tablet, am I right?

I do believe that laptops and tablets will eventually converge -- technology will eventually get to the point where we can have light-weight, 12-13 inch tablets that will be great laptops too. But right now, I prefer carrying around both my iPad and Air, even if a single Win8 device might be lighter than the two combined. Because with the iPad and the Air, I have a great laptop and a great tablet. With Win8, I get either a good tablet and a mediocre laptop, or vice versa.

I just keep my Nexus 7 in my pocket and carry around a laptop. Makes my life much easier to have a small tablet.

Night Spring
May 11, 2013, 08:00 PM
I just keep my Nexus 7 in my pocket and carry around a laptop. Makes my life much easier to have a small tablet.

That's true -- I currently have an iPad mini as my "out of home" tablet, and the lighter weight makes it a lot easier to carry, especially when I'm also carrying mt laptop. However, I find the mini just a tad uncomfortable to use in terms of all the touch targets being smaller. It takes a lot more concentration to hit the right target, and I find myself missing a lot more often than on the full sized iPad. Probably not an issue for most able-bodied people, but I do have some mobility issues. So I'm really hoping that the iPad 5 will be significantly lighter, as rumored. A full size iPad with the weight of the current mini will really be ideal -- I know it won't happen with the iPad 5, but maybe 6 or 7? ;)

spinedoc77
May 11, 2013, 08:02 PM
I just keep my Nexus 7 in my pocket and carry around a laptop. Makes my life much easier to have a small tablet.

This isn't a bad option at all. That's why I can't wait until the rumored 7" surface Pro gets released. Although currently I only carry one device, my windows tablet.

sentinelsx
May 11, 2013, 08:36 PM
Some atom tablets do better than this. I've seen rundown tests of the Vivotab smart for example over 10+ hours. This is with what is basically an old netbook CPU shoehorned to be dual core, this year Intel had a fire lit under them and the battery life we will see later this year and next year will be pretty insane, coupled with much more CPU power and desktop graphics capability.


I've never ever had an issue with running out of juice on my thinkpad tablet 2, and I use it a ton during the day. It's really surreal to me that I'm actually able to use windows for 10 hours without ever having to plug in. I've seen reviews of the TPT2 lasting almost 12 hours (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/tablets/381466/lenovo-thinkpad-tablet-2/2).

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Wait, isn't that the entire point of a windows tablet? :confused::confused:

Yeah I was replying to the guy who said laptops are going to be the goto mobile device instead of tablets.

Its 2013 and I still have to lug that pos?

APlotdevice
May 11, 2013, 11:43 PM
I disagree handwriting on a touchscreen is a good way to take notes, but then that's me personally. I far prefer keyboards. I get on fine with touchscreen keyboards usually, especially if I can swipe, but when I'm taking notes in lectures and especially if I'm writing full essays, I far prefer the ability to touch type and you just cannot do that on any touchscreen keyboard no matter how good it is. Plus typing on a proper physical keyboard is always going to be more accurate and, for me at least, usually a lot faster too if it's a full sized one on a laptop. So for me a laptop will trump a tablet every time for note taking. Plus a laptop makes it far easier to quickly check the internet discreetly :p
Not all note taking is the same. Depending on the course/field, one may need to jot down a lot of diagrams or other illustrations that cannot be simply typed out.

I also hold to the opinion that carrying around a separate keyboard and mouse for a tablet would just be annoying and I'd far rather carry around a laptop.
There are many tablets out there with hard shelled keyboard/trackpad combinations that latch onto the bottom and let you fold the whole thing up just like a conventional laptop. The difference being that it only has to be there when you need it.