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MacRumors
May 24, 2013, 06:23 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/24/os-x-10-8-4-build-12e55-seeded-to-developers/)


As noted (http://9to5mac.com/2013/05/24/apple-seeds-os-x-10-8-4-beta-build-12e55-to-developers/) by 9to5Mac, Apple today seeded build 12E55 of OS X 10.8.4 to developers. The release comes nine days after the previous build 12E52 (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/15/os-x-10-8-4-build-12d52-seeded-to-developers/) and marks the eighth beta iteration of OS X 10.8.4.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/05/12e55-800x262.png
As with previous beta releases, Apple continues to ask developers to focus on Wi-Fi, Graphics Drivers, and Safari.

The update is available through the software update tool in the Mac App Store and Apple's Developer Page (https://developer.apple.com/).

Article Link: OS X 10.8.4 Build 12E55 Seeded to Developers (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/24/os-x-10-8-4-build-12e55-seeded-to-developers/)



TheGreenBastard
May 24, 2013, 06:32 PM
Screw it. Waiting for 10.9

Parasprite
May 24, 2013, 06:41 PM
Screw it. Waiting for 10.9

I made it to 10.8.3, I can wait for anything.

rossip
May 24, 2013, 07:02 PM
how r them graphics drivers!

dastinger
May 24, 2013, 07:17 PM
/inb4 slow shutdown

designgeek
May 24, 2013, 07:29 PM
They really seem to be taking their time with this one. I hope the get most of the crap ironed out. OS X gets buggier and buggier with each new release.

tywebb13
May 24, 2013, 07:46 PM
...Apple today seeded build 12E55...

You stole my thread again!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1586550 (posted 30min before yours)

AfzalivE
May 24, 2013, 07:51 PM
So have they reduced the time it takes for the laptop to go sleep?

bedifferent
May 24, 2013, 07:57 PM
Yeah! Only a handful more to go. I'm betting 10.8.4 is released around WWDC, with 10.9 DP1.

Gonna install this now and check on OpenGL support, test out WiFi on my Mac Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini and console reports.

----------

You stole my thread again!

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1586550 (posted 30min before yours)

Same thing happened to me last beta release, an hour after I posted it. They took my screen shot as well (and yes, I got confirmation it was). lol :o

katewes
May 24, 2013, 08:04 PM
Is there anyone, who is testing this 10.8.4, to simply advise us of the shut-down time they are getting, and give no further comment on why other people should or should not desire a faster shutdown time.

i.e. for this beta, just state the average shutdown time in seconds, and add no further comment.

GIZBUG
May 24, 2013, 08:08 PM
Runs fine, as do the other previous betas. Notice no difference between this beta, the last beta, or 10.8.3

blacktape242
May 24, 2013, 08:15 PM
is saf........ well nevermind..... :p

ghostface147
May 24, 2013, 08:23 PM
Usatoday.com has been flashing artifacts since build 12e47. Hopefully this is rectified before public release. I'll be updating in a couple of days to 12e55.

Mr. Retrofire
May 24, 2013, 09:26 PM
Yeah! Only a handful more to go. I'm betting 10.8.4 is released around WWDC, with 10.9 DP1.

Gonna install this now and check on OpenGL support, test out WiFi on my Mac Pro, MacBook Air, Mac Mini and console reports.
OpenGL 4.0 support is probably only available via the Haswell IGP drivers. Some OS X frameworks need also some changes. iThink only OS X 10.9.x on Haswell-hardware will support OpenGL 4.0.

Moshe1010
May 24, 2013, 09:45 PM
25 more to go.

Saladinos
May 24, 2013, 09:58 PM
OpenGL 4.0 support is probably only available via the Haswell IGP drivers. Some OS X frameworks need also some changes. iThink only OS X 10.9.x on Haswell-hardware will support OpenGL 4.0.

They better not! I just bought my RMBP not that long ago!

The Intel HD 4000 (Ivy Bridge) has had a couple of really good driver updates on Windows: they've added OpenGL 4.0 (http://www.geeks3d.com/20120506/intel-ivy-bridge-hd-graphics-4000-gpu-opengl-4-tessellation-tested/) and improved performance by 10% while allegedly lowering power consumption (http://www.geek.com/chips/intel-hd-4000-graphics-driver-to-offer-10-percent-performance-boost-1550665/) (oh, and that update includes OpenCL 1.2, too).

Let's hope Apple can do the same for OSX (man, why must they insist on writing their own drivers?)

JordanNZ
May 24, 2013, 11:44 PM
They better not! I just bought my RMBP not that long ago!

The Intel HD 4000 (Ivy Bridge) has had a couple of really good driver updates on Windows: they've added OpenGL 4.0 (http://www.geeks3d.com/20120506/intel-ivy-bridge-hd-graphics-4000-gpu-opengl-4-tessellation-tested/) and improved performance by 10% while allegedly lowering power consumption (http://www.geek.com/chips/intel-hd-4000-graphics-driver-to-offer-10-percent-performance-boost-1550665/) (oh, and that update includes OpenCL 1.2, too).

Let's hope Apple can do the same for OSX (man, why must they insist on writing their own drivers?)

I'm pretty sure Intel is responsible for their OSX drivers. Apple writes the front end part of the graphics subsystem.

pauliaK
May 25, 2013, 12:16 AM
What's the current record for the number of beta seeds?

Whatever the number is I think we're headed for a new one!

Lancer
May 25, 2013, 12:17 AM
Really hope this fixes the networking issues I have after deep sleep on my iMac.

MacbookSwitcher
May 25, 2013, 12:22 AM
Usatoday.com has been flashing artifacts since build 12e47. Hopefully this is rectified before public release. I'll be updating in a couple of days to 12e55.

My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.

I'm hoping that 10.8.4 will fix this issue!

Here are some videos of my problem:

http://youtu.be/YGae1ams0i8
http://youtu.be/tqO30pxdSOs
http://youtu.be/OIwSkIJduRc

Here is an image of my problem:

https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-21996729-250883/450-336/IMG_3595+copy.JPG

ArtOfWarfare
May 25, 2013, 12:28 AM
My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.

I'm hoping that 10.8.4 will fix this issue!

Here are some videos of my problem:

http://youtu.be/YGae1ams0i8
http://youtu.be/tqO30pxdSOs
http://youtu.be/OIwSkIJduRc

Here is an image of my problem:

Image (https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-21996729-250883/450-336/IMG_3595+copy.JPG)

You're holding it wrong.

padapada
May 25, 2013, 12:56 AM
FYI: Intel Linux OpenGL driver is faster than Apple OSX driver...

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/05/22/2229231/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver

Patrick

iBug2
May 25, 2013, 12:58 AM
My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.

I'm hoping that 10.8.4 will fix this issue!

Here are some videos of my problem:

http://youtu.be/YGae1ams0i8
http://youtu.be/tqO30pxdSOs
http://youtu.be/OIwSkIJduRc

Here is an image of my problem:

Image (https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-21996729-250883/450-336/IMG_3595+copy.JPG)

Graphics artefacts with overheating happens usually due to faulty hardware.

Asgorath
May 25, 2013, 01:11 AM
FYI: Intel Linux OpenGL driver is faster than Apple OSX driver...

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/05/22/2229231/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver

Patrick

Those games are based on the Quake 3 Arena engine, which came out back in 1999 and features ground-breaking technology like multitexturing. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Saladinos
May 25, 2013, 01:20 AM
I'm pretty sure Intel is responsible for their OSX drivers. Apple writes the front end part of the graphics subsystem.

Really? I always understood that the drivers were written by Apple.

There seems to be some debate (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2180937) with the ATI/NVidia cards. It's possible Intel has a different arrangement though.

iBug2
May 25, 2013, 01:47 AM
Really? I always understood that the drivers were written by Apple.

There seems to be some debate (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2180937) with the ATI/NVidia cards. It's possible Intel has a different arrangement though.

Apple together with ATI/Nvidia writes the drivers for OS X.

ConCat
May 25, 2013, 03:34 AM
Graphics artefacts with overheating happens usually due to faulty hardware.

Not always. Faulty drivers and/or firmware could also be responsible, especially if what he said about it not happening in 10.8.2 is true.

MrNomNoms
May 25, 2013, 04:00 AM
My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.

I'm hoping that 10.8.4 will fix this issue!

Here are some videos of my problem:

http://youtu.be/YGae1ams0i8
http://youtu.be/tqO30pxdSOs
http://youtu.be/OIwSkIJduRc

Here is an image of my problem:

Image (https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-21996729-250883/450-336/IMG_3595+copy.JPG)

It might help if you mentioned what model of the MacBook Pro that you have - year, model number, gpu etc.

Nomax2000
May 25, 2013, 04:22 AM
And again, i like to know the nvidia driver version please.

TheTissot11
May 25, 2013, 05:40 AM
It's funny if there are no issues with these builds, then why not release it? Is Apple playing some game here suggesting that they are constantly improving things while in reality there is no change...

treichert
May 25, 2013, 05:52 AM
And again, i like to know the nvidia driver version please.

8.12.47 310.40.00.05f01

At this point, the beta is almost over and there won't be new drivers released in another build.

50548
May 25, 2013, 05:58 AM
What's the current record for the number of beta seeds?

Whatever the number is I think we're headed for a new one!

Nothing will ever beat 10.8.3 in that regard.

Pentad
May 25, 2013, 06:33 AM
My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.


I would see Apple about that. That looks more like faulty hardware than a software driver.

iBug2
May 25, 2013, 07:13 AM
Not always. Faulty drivers and/or firmware could also be responsible, especially if what he said about it not happening in 10.8.2 is true.

That doesn't mean much. The new driver in 10.8.3 may be using the GPU to a further extent, which may be causing issues with a faulty GPU.

Krazy Bill
May 25, 2013, 08:34 AM
i.e. for this beta, just state the average shutdown time in seconds, and add no further comment.I'd prefer screen shots of the console logs myself. Hint: Search for, exit timeout

ghostface147
May 25, 2013, 09:01 AM
Usatoday.com has been flashing artifacts since build 12e47. Hopefully this is rectified before public release. I'll be updating in a couple of days to 12e55.

Yup, same thing.

richard2
May 25, 2013, 09:09 AM
My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.

I'm hoping that 10.8.4 will fix this issue!

Here are some videos of my problem:

http://youtu.be/YGae1ams0i8
http://youtu.be/tqO30pxdSOs
http://youtu.be/OIwSkIJduRc

Here is an image of my problem:

Image (https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-21996729-250883/450-336/IMG_3595+copy.JPG)

As others have already said, the problem almost certainly lies with your Mac's hardware, not its software. You should back-up all of your data and take your Mac to an Apple Store or Apple Authorised Service Provider.

mag01
May 25, 2013, 09:11 AM
Yup, same thing.
GPU drivers haven't changed since 12E47. Same with kernel and most of core system components. So it would be surprising to see any improvement in this regard. I suggest you to have your hardware checked at nearby place and then perhaps create a bug report at https://bugreport.apple.com/

ValSalva
May 25, 2013, 09:24 AM
Screw it. Waiting for 10.9

I think it's going to be a while before 10.9 goes GM. 10.8 was released as beta in February 2012.

10.9 will hopefully be released in beta at WWDC in a couple of weeks but with resources going towards iOS 7, who knows? We might only be in for a sneak peek of 10.9 at WWDC with betas to follow some time later.

Maybe I'm alone on this but I am glad there is a delay with 10.9. I always to clean installs and not upgrades. Yearly OS releases are just too much too soon. I'd rather have Apple get things done right and not rush half finished software out the door.

ghostface147
May 25, 2013, 09:45 AM
GPU drivers haven't changed since 12E47. Same with kernel and most of core system components. So it would be surprising to see any improvement in this regard. I suggest you to have your hardware checked at nearby place and then perhaps create a bug report at https://bugreport.apple.com/

I doubt it's hardware because it works fine if I restore to previous builds. I will submit a bug report though.

br3nt
May 25, 2013, 10:05 AM
I doubt it's hardware because it works fine if I restore to previous builds. I will submit a bug report though.

try running the systems diagnostic (apple hardware test)

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1509?viewlocale=en_US&locale=en_US

Steve J0bs
May 25, 2013, 10:54 AM
Is there anyone, who is testing this 10.8.4, to simply advise us of the shut-down time they are getting, and give no further comment on why other people should or should not desire a faster shutdown time.

i.e. for this beta, just state the average shutdown time in seconds, and add no further comment.

11 seconds

ArmCortexA8
May 25, 2013, 12:30 PM
Here's the latest list from 12E55:-

The 10.8.4 update is recommended for all OS X Mountain Lion users and has features and fixes that improve the stability, compatibility, and security of your Mac, including the following:

* Compatibility improvements when connecting to certain enterprise Wi-Fi networks
* Microsoft Exchange compatibility improvements in Calendar
* A fix for an issue that prevented FaceTime calls to non-U.S. phone numbers
* A fix for an issue that may prevent scheduled sleep after using Boot Camp
* Improved VoiceOver compatibility with text in PDF documents
* Includes Safari 6.0.5

mag01
May 25, 2013, 12:39 PM
For those interested, the slow shutdown issue persists (as expected). I still see exit timeouts for the same processes as before.

dyn
May 25, 2013, 01:11 PM
Really? I always understood that the drivers were written by Apple.

There seems to be some debate (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2180937) with the ATI/NVidia cards. It's possible Intel has a different arrangement though.
Apple can't due to things like patents and copyrights. Intel open sourced their drivers, AMD is contributing to Linux since very recently but Nvidia is keeping it all closed. Thus that debate is completely pointless. Apple needs to work with the GPU guys, Intel only makes it easier because they are open sourcing their drivers.

Btw, Phoronix' conclusions regarding the Nexuiz bench are strange. The graph is showing that OS X has more fps and more is better, yet their conclusion is that Ubuntu is better in both cases (it's only in 1). I know Intel has released a new driver version that should improve performance greatly. It could be that their Ubuntu install has this new driver whereas OS X hasn't yet. If we look at when 10.8.3 was released that might be realistic. It's quite possible that 10.8.4 comes with that new driver.

antonis
May 25, 2013, 03:02 PM
I think it's going to be a while before 10.9 goes GM. 10.8 was released as beta in February 2012.

10.9 will hopefully be released in beta at WWDC in a couple of weeks but with resources going towards iOS 7, who knows? We might only be in for a sneak peek of 10.9 at WWDC with betas to follow some time later.

Maybe I'm alone on this but I am glad there is a delay with 10.9. I always to clean installs and not upgrades. Yearly OS releases are just too much too soon. I'd rather have Apple get things done right and not rush half finished software out the door.

Yearly updates are not a bad thing, actually all OSes are having upgrades at least once per year (some of them even more often). From many perspectives, it's way better to have small and often upgrades rather than rare big ones. Only windows have unpredicted and big release cycles, and I would not consider it as something to make an example from.

Having said that, with the resources moving towards iOS 7, I would not dare to risk and predict a release estimation.

koban4max
May 25, 2013, 06:12 PM
Apple is in a sad state... I don't remember if there was many beta testing during SJ era. I'm not sure...were there? At the moment...it's irritating to see Apple needing this many testing before release.

JM-Prod
May 25, 2013, 06:16 PM
Apple is in a sad state... I don't remember if there was many beta testing during SJ era. I'm not sure...were there? At the moment...it's irritating to see Apple needing this many testing before release.

No, it's a good thing that they are testing the OS this much, don't you think? Solid updates are a plus. However, I wish the updates were more ambitious. I.e. OS X needs better OpenGL support.

Michael Goff
May 25, 2013, 06:32 PM
Apple is in a sad state... I don't remember if there was many beta testing during SJ era. I'm not sure...were there? At the moment...it's irritating to see Apple needing this many testing before release.

Would you rather they didn't test the updates and there be a lot of bugs?

wizard
May 25, 2013, 06:36 PM
No OpenCL support for Intel GPUs? Getting this ironed out would be great, especially when Haswell hits.

simsaladimbamba
May 25, 2013, 06:58 PM
Yearly updates are not a bad thing, actually all OSes are having upgrades at least once per year (some of them even more often). From many perspectives, it's way better to have small and often upgrades rather than rare big ones. Only windows have unpredicted and big release cycles, and I would not consider it as something to make an example from.

Having said that, with the resources moving towards iOS 7, I would not dare to risk and predict a release estimation.

Do you mean updates or upgrades?

Software update, upgrade--what's the difference? (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1444)
Key differences

A software update is usually downloadable free of charge; a software upgrade usually is not.
A software upgrade usually increments the first "dot" number of a product (for example Mac OS X v10.6, Mac OS X v10.5); a downloadable software update usually increments second "dot" number (for example, Mac OS X v10.6.8, Mac OS X v10.5.8).

star-affinity
May 25, 2013, 07:02 PM
For those interested, the slow shutdown issue persists (as expected). I still see exit timeouts for the same processes as before.

What's the name of the process?

JordanNZ
May 25, 2013, 07:28 PM
Those games are based on the Quake 3 Arena engine, which came out back in 1999 and features ground-breaking technology like multitexturing. I wouldn't read too much into it.

Not only that, but they are limiting their testing to the HD3000, which has never had the best OSX support.

----------

Really? I always understood that the drivers were written by Apple.

There seems to be some debate (http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2180937) with the ATI/NVidia cards. It's possible Intel has a different arrangement though.

As far as I'm aware all of the vendor drivers work as plugins, which hook into the graphics core of the os, which Apple writes.

So Apple controls the front end, and the vendors write the back end drivers that actually talk to the card.

This is why nvidia can offer updated drivers on their site outside of os os updates.

Krazy Bill
May 25, 2013, 07:48 PM
11 seconds

:(

For those interested, the slow shutdown issue persists (as expected). I still see exit timeouts for the same processes as before.

:(

No, it's a good thing that they are testing the OS this much, don't you think? Solid updates are a plus.You had me until "Solid".

Seriously, who do you think "they" is that are testing OSX? It's developers out in the real world who repeatedly report things only to find that in the 5th and even 6th iteration they are ignored.

JM-Prod
May 25, 2013, 07:55 PM
You had me until "Solid".

Seriously, who do you think "they" is that are testing OSX? It's developers out in the real world who repeatedly report things only to find that in the 5th and even 6th iteration they are ignored.

So, you don't want solid updates? Btw. I already mentioned that I wished updates to be more ambitious. But even though they are quite narrow in their scope, they seem to have solved a lot of issues on the incremental updates, especially in terms of Safari's performance and stability.

Most of the issues seems to be gone on OS X 10.8.4.

Saladinos
May 25, 2013, 08:18 PM
Apple can't due to things like patents and copyrights. Intel open sourced their drivers, AMD is contributing to Linux since very recently but Nvidia is keeping it all closed. Thus that debate is completely pointless. Apple needs to work with the GPU guys, Intel only makes it easier because they are open sourcing their drivers.

Apple buy the chips from these companies, so they'd have all the technical documentation needed to develop their own drivers. They would never need to reverse-engineer open-source drivers if they were writing their own. There shouldn't be any issue with patents or copyrights - a license would presumably be included as part of the sale of the devices (what's the point in a bunch of GPUs you can't use?).

I used to write graphics drivers for ARM. The reason they don't open-source their drivers is because it could potentially expose some type of IP infringement. I should add that they weren't aware of any actual infringements, but if you publish your source code you give people something to dig through. It's better to be safe than sorry.

Modern graphics drivers are freakishly complex (especially in a world of GPGPU). I've always been told that Apple wrote their own drivers using the technical documentation they get from the manufacturers. If you're wondering, I didn't get that info from ARM - we never wrote drivers for Apple, but then Apple wasn't a Mali GPU licensee so we wouldn't have. That said, everybody there makes jokes about how much Apple customise from the IP they license; they tweak and change basically everything.

Saladinos
May 25, 2013, 09:00 PM
[QUOTE=JordanNZ;17315172This is why nvidia can offer updated drivers on their site outside of os os updates.[/QUOTE]

I did not know this.

macs4nw
May 25, 2013, 10:24 PM
They really seem to be taking their time with this one.....OS X gets buggier and buggier with each new release.

To be fair OSs also get more complicated with each new release. Perfection from the outset is a near-impossibility.

.....Maybe I'm alone on this but I am glad there is a delay with 10.9. I always to clean installs and not upgrades. Yearly OS releases are just too much too soon. I'd rather have Apple get things done right and not rush half finished software out the door.

Whole-heartedly agreed! Sometimes one can't help but wonder though, if APPLE is spreading themselves too thinly these days. It's a well-documented fact they move their human resources talent pool around, as needed, rather than have software people, dedicated to one particular line. The former has imho many distinct advantages, not only for the company, but especially for us, the users. One reason why most APPLE software is so seamlessly integrated and runs so well. OK, before I get inundated, "relatively well".

For those interested, the slow shutdown issue persists.....

Haven't experienced problems with these 'slow shutdown issues' as I rarely ever shutdown my MBA which runs ML;
I simply close the lid. The desktop is rock-solid running SL. No shutdown issues there.
Now if we could only get APPLE to add Multiple Time Machine Back-ups to SL, that would be fantastic.
I know, I know, not gonna happen. :(:apple::(

antonis
May 26, 2013, 12:19 AM
Do you mean updates or upgrades?

Software update, upgrade--what's the difference? (http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1444)

Upgrades (aka new major releases).

iBug2
May 26, 2013, 12:48 AM
Apple is in a sad state... I don't remember if there was many beta testing during SJ era. I'm not sure...were there? At the moment...it's irritating to see Apple needing this many testing before release.

I smell troll but I'll bite.

Yes there were as much beta testing in Jobs era as well.

macs4nw
May 26, 2013, 01:40 AM
Apple is in a sad state... I don't remember if there was many beta testing during SJ era. I'm not sure...were there? At the moment...it's irritating to see Apple needing this many testing before release.

I smell troll but I'll bite.
Yes there were as much beta testing in Jobs era as well.

Are we going to regret 'biting', but I'll add my two cents to your reply to koban4max that a lot of beta testing by any company is not only good, but commendable. Who wants to buy buggy, laggy software that freezes and fails to live up to expected and advertised standards? Todays OSs are becoming exponentially more complicated, so thorough testing is imperative if a company wants to keep their customers happy.

With today's software, perfection from the get-go is a near-impossibility. There always still seem to be issues that slip through the cracks, and need to be updated later. Many glitches in fact.

Without this extended beta testing, these issues/glitches would be a lot worse.

mag01
May 26, 2013, 03:38 AM
What's the name of the process?As always (in my case):
com.apple.coreservices.appleevents
com.apple.securityd
Haven't experienced problems with these 'slow shutdown issues' as I rarely or never shutdown my MBA which runs ML; I simply close the lid. The desktop is rock-solid with SL.
Now if we could only get APPLE to add Multiple Time Machine Back-ups to SL, that would be fantastic.
I know, I know, not gonna happen. :(:apple::(Lucky man. I shutdown my MBA because in sleep mode it discharges the battery much more than when it's shut down. And because it's the 11" one it really feels (yes, I've got the hibernatemode set to 0 so that it never uses SSD for saving the state, only RAM and thus more power is used). So now I use the known workaround with very short ExitTimeOut values (2s). Definitely not to be considered a clean solution, but at least brings some improvement.

gto55
May 26, 2013, 04:36 AM
what about OPEN GL drivers ?
Intel's Linux OpenGL Driver Faster Than Apple's OS X Driver (http://www.techinvestornews.com/Apple/Apple-Mac-Computers/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver)
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/05/22/2229231/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver

Petition requesting Apple to support OpenGL 4.3 and ZFS in OS X 10.9
https://www.change.org/petitions/apple-os-x-10-9-support-opengl-4-3-and-zfs

http://img.staticmacg.com/2013/5/macgpic_1369227639_converted_optim.jpg

http://img.staticmacg.com/2013/5/macgpic_1369226914_converted_optim.jpg

katewes
May 26, 2013, 04:40 AM
11 seconds

Getting better.

Walter White
May 26, 2013, 04:44 AM
what about OPEN GL drivers ?
Intel's Linux OpenGL Driver Faster Than Apple's OS X Driver (http://www.techinvestornews.com/Apple/Apple-Mac-Computers/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver)
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/05/22/2229231/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver

Petition requesting Apple to support OpenGL 4.3 and ZFS in OS X 10.9
https://www.change.org/petitions/apple-os-x-10-9-support-opengl-4-3-and-zfs

Image (http://img.staticmacg.com/2013/5/macgpic_1369227639_converted_optim.jpg)

Image (http://img.staticmacg.com/2013/5/macgpic_1369226914_converted_optim.jpg)

Wanting OpenGL support i understand, but ZFS? Get real, people.

mag01
May 26, 2013, 05:11 AM
Wanting OpenGL support i understand, but ZFS? Get real, people.I think the ZFS requirement (in that petition) is based on the fact that it was already being tested at one point in the past. However, for example I don't want ZFS myself and don't like it either though I signed that petition. I believe some bigger filesystem change is really required. HFS+ is ancient at this point, it isn't even robust enough (you can for example easily corrupt data without any possibility to detect this corruption at the fs level) and even the performance is poor (for example ext4 easily outperforms it in practically every type of workload). At this moment it doesn't have any real advantage over other common filesystems.

Walter White
May 26, 2013, 05:36 AM
I think the ZFS requirement (in that petition) is based on the fact that it was already being tested at one point in the past.

So what. Things started to change fast and it was removed. Due to licensing and what not.

mag01
May 26, 2013, 05:49 AM
So what. Things started to change fast and it was removed. Due to licensing and what not.:eek: Just take it as "bring some big FS change" instead of "ZFS and only ZFS" petition. The person who created that petition didn't do it the best possible way, but it's at least some effort. Though I don't believe it will mean much to Apple and that they will change anything in the near future.

justperry
May 26, 2013, 06:33 AM
So what. Things started to change fast and it was removed. Due to licensing and what not.

Another reason they dumped ZFS might be OS X crashing after you unmounted a USB ZFS formatted drive and then disconnect the Cable, this was a bug and might still be the problem.

phpmaven
May 26, 2013, 09:37 AM
As others have already said, the problem almost certainly lies with your Mac's hardware, not its software. You should back-up all of your data and take your Mac to an Apple Store or Apple Authorised Service Provider.

They are not going to help him if he goes in with a beta OS on it. He would need to reinstall 10.8.2.

iBug2
May 26, 2013, 10:05 AM
Seriously, who do you think "they" is that are testing OSX? It's developers out in the real world who repeatedly report things only to find that in the 5th and even 6th iteration they are ignored.

A lot of the time, the stuff developers and testers report are fixed in 1-2 years time. Not in 2 weeks. There's a long list of bugs for OS X, like any other OS. Unless the bug is life threatening it will be put at the end of the list. But of course new point updates introduce new bugs which can be squashed fast enough if it's easy to do. But nobody is being ignored.

----------

:eek: Just take it as "bring some big FS change" instead of "ZFS and only ZFS" petition. The person who created that petition didn't do it the best possible way, but it's at least some effort. Though I don't believe it will mean much to Apple and that they will change anything in the near future.

I don't think Apple will ever implement ZFS. If they ever change HFS, they'll probably switch to an in-house file system again.

dyn
May 26, 2013, 10:40 AM
Apple buy the chips from these companies, so they'd have all the technical documentation needed to develop their own drivers. They would never need to reverse-engineer open-source drivers if they were writing their own. There shouldn't be any issue with patents or copyrights - a license would presumably be included as part of the sale of the devices (what's the point in a bunch of GPUs you can't use?).

A license is something that you can only give out if every copyright owner agrees and that's the exact problem in most cases: there are many people who have contributed code and it is very hard and sometimes impossible to track all of them. Giving out a license can be a very difficult thing because of things like this. Having documentation doesn't change anything. We've seen various real world examples where copyrights and patents create issues. Mostly due to the USPTO way of doing it (thorough checks are only done when somebody complains after the patent is granted instead of before granting the patent in the first place combined with the ability to patent nearly everything, even the most common and silly things). The H.264 codec is a good one as well as Googles WebM/VP8. There simply are too many legal issues in today's world.

The most likely and most realistic option would be that Apple is getting the chips from those manufacturers and they are helping them to write the drivers for OS X. In Linux there are proprietary binary blobs for both AMD/Ati and Nvidia. The kernel only has some stuff that allows it to access those blobs. That's probably how it works for OS X as well: there is only teamwork between Apple and AMD/Nvidia for accessing those blobs from OS X. That would also be the most easiest way of doing things for AMD/Nvidia technically.

I did not know this.
They only offer driver updates for the optional cards they release for the Mac Pro (e.g. Quadro 4000). Those drivers are not for the GPU's in say the MBP or iMac.

demodave
May 26, 2013, 10:54 AM
They really seem to be taking their time with this one. I hope the get most of the crap ironed out. OS X gets buggier and buggier with each new release.

To me, it makes sense that they are taking longer with this release. It's the first one since Forstall was fired. That only happened very late in 2012. That means that the clock was reset by roughly 6 months. (I am sure that Apple is already developing the next .x or x.0 revision long before the "current, new" revision is released.) The much ballyhooed "de-Forstall-ization" process has to take a while.

cmChimera
May 26, 2013, 11:09 AM
To me, it makes sense that they are taking longer with this release. It's the first one since Forstall was fired. That only happened very late in 2012. That means that the clock was reset by roughly 6 months. (I am sure that Apple is already developing the next .x or x.0 revision long before the "current, new" revision is released.) The much ballyhooed "de-Forstall-ization" process has to take a while.

Forestall wasn't part of OS X development.

Parasprite
May 26, 2013, 11:36 AM
I smell troll but I'll bite.

Yes there were as much beta testing in Jobs era as well.

Kordiak anyone?

bedifferent
May 26, 2013, 12:49 PM
what about OPEN GL drivers ?


Unfortunately, Apple has been notoriously awful with OS X graphic support :(

Michael Goff
May 26, 2013, 12:50 PM
Forestall wasn't part of OS X development.

I thought Forestall was iOS?

What was the guy's name who was in charge of OS X before Ive?

cmChimera
May 26, 2013, 01:48 PM
I thought Forestall was iOS?

What was the guy's name who was in charge of OS X before Ive?

Yeah Forestall was iOS. Craig Federighi was and still is in charge of OS X. Now he has control of iOS as well. Ive has human interface responsibilities for both OS X and iOS. So basically, look to Federighi for substantive features in iOS and OS X, and look to Ive for UI elements (In the most liberal sense, I think even gestures and such may be within Ive's realm). Realistically, they will probably work very closely and both of them will deserve credit for whatever comes about.

Michael Goff
May 26, 2013, 01:55 PM
Yeah Forestall was iOS. Craig Federighi was and still is in charge of OS X. Now he has control of iOS as well. Ive has human interface responsibilities for both OS X and iOS. So basically, look to Federighi for substantive features in iOS and OS X, and look to Ive for UI elements (In the most liberal sense, I think even gestures and such may be within Ive's realm). Realistically, they will probably work very closely and both of them will deserve credit for whatever comes about.

Don't people blame Craig for 10.7/10.8, or was that somebody else?

adnbek
May 26, 2013, 02:08 PM
Don't people blame Craig for 10.7/10.8, or was that somebody else?

Yes. Bertrand Serlet's involvement ended at Snow Leopard, then Craig took over. What a sad day that was.

50548
May 26, 2013, 02:12 PM
Don't people blame Craig for 10.7/10.8, or was that somebody else?

Forget Federighi - as far as OS X is concerned, I am still looking for the return of the dynamic duo: Avie Tevanian and Bertrand Serlet.

cmChimera
May 26, 2013, 02:22 PM
Don't people blame Craig for 10.7/10.8, or was that somebody else?

Yes they do. I'm not in that camp, but it exists.

Michael Goff
May 26, 2013, 02:25 PM
Forget Federighi - as far as OS X is concerned, I am still looking for the return of the dynamic duo: Avie Tevanian and Bertrand Serlet.

A lot of people wish they could.

Yes they do. I'm not in that camp, but it exists.

Then who do you blame?

cmChimera
May 26, 2013, 02:55 PM
Then who do you blame?

I don't blame anyone. I like Mountain Lion. I think Lion could've used more polish before release, but I think Mountain Lion was a return to form. I have very few complaints about 10.8.

Michael Goff
May 26, 2013, 03:24 PM
I don't blame anyone. I like Mountain Lion. I think Lion could've used more polish before release, but I think Mountain Lion was a return to form. I have very few complaints about 10.8.

Lucky you.

Lion actually worked better in some ways than ML on my Macbook Air... and it's the 2012 model. XD

cmChimera
May 26, 2013, 03:36 PM
Lucky you.

Lion actually worked better in some ways than ML on my Macbook Air... and it's the 2012 model. XD

That's unfortunate. The weird thing for regarding Lion, is that my problems could have been a bad install. When I got my rMBP, Lion ran pretty well. I still would say Snow Leopard ran better, but I couldn't duplicate several issues. Either way, hopefully 10.9 solves some of the remaining issues for users. Considering the latest rumors seem to imply that Apple is targeting some "pro" users, it should be pretty interesting.

bedifferent
May 26, 2013, 04:03 PM
forget federighi - as far as os x is concerned, i am still looking for the return of the dynamic duo: Avie tevanian and bertrand serlet.

amen.

Ddyracer
May 26, 2013, 04:08 PM
Who can I blame for the ugly linen? SF?

Michael Goff
May 26, 2013, 04:19 PM
That's unfortunate. The weird thing for regarding Lion, is that my problems could have been a bad install. When I got my rMBP, Lion ran pretty well. I still would say Snow Leopard ran better, but I couldn't duplicate several issues. Either way, hopefully 10.9 solves some of the remaining issues for users. Considering the latest rumors seem to imply that Apple is targeting some "pro" users, it should be pretty interesting.

I have high hopes for 10.9

Gnomepatrol
May 26, 2013, 04:21 PM
I, personally, still haven't found a reason to move from 10.7 to 10.8. Waiting on 10.9 to see if I want to move.

Boris A
May 26, 2013, 04:24 PM
Is it Federighi that keeps the bugs rolling in every release? I've never had as many problems as in Lion. Mountain Lion didn't make things much better, if at all.

daneoni
May 26, 2013, 04:57 PM
You guys realise Federighi was at Apple during Bertand and Avie's reign, and that OS X still sucked in terms of graphics driver/OpenGL support and was just as buggy at times.

Sound214
May 26, 2013, 04:58 PM
I, personally, still haven't found a reason to move from 10.7 to 10.8. Waiting on 10.9 to see if I want to move.

Is it the price that keeps you away? Or perhaps you hate the mess of upgrading your OS?

JordanNZ
May 26, 2013, 05:14 PM
what about OPEN GL drivers ?
Intel's Linux OpenGL Driver Faster Than Apple's OS X Driver (http://www.techinvestornews.com/Apple/Apple-Mac-Computers/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver)
http://apple.slashdot.org/story/13/05/22/2229231/intels-linux-opengl-driver-faster-than-apples-os-x-driver

Petition requesting Apple to support OpenGL 4.3 and ZFS in OS X 10.9
https://www.change.org/petitions/apple-os-x-10-9-support-opengl-4-3-and-zfs

Image (http://img.staticmacg.com/2013/5/macgpic_1369227639_converted_optim.jpg)

Image (http://img.staticmacg.com/2013/5/macgpic_1369226914_converted_optim.jpg)

I'll say it again...

This is on the HD 3000. And even the people on the Phoronix forums are tearing these benchmarks to shreds.

cmChimera
May 26, 2013, 05:26 PM
You guys realise Federighi was at Apple during Bertand and Avie's reign, and that OS X still sucked in terms of graphics driver/OpenGL support and was just as buggy at times.

I do.

Ddyracer
May 26, 2013, 07:25 PM
Is it Federighi that keeps the bugs rolling in every release? I've never had as many problems as in Lion. Mountain Lion didn't make things much better, if at all.

Yeah, ML is a lot worse for me than lion. So much ****. Can't even get my monitor to work

SlCKB0Y
May 26, 2013, 07:32 PM
but ZFS? Get real, people.

Why not include zfs and why does this seem far fetched to you? Apple had completely ported zfs to snow leopard server, advertised it in advance as a major feature and then dropped it quietly, possibly because of licensing issues.

----------

I'll say it again...

This is on the HD 3000. And even the people on the Phoronix forums are tearing these benchmarks to shreds.

As usual... Benchmarks are meaningless when they don't go Apples way..... When they do, benchmarks are extremely important.

mdriftmeyer
May 26, 2013, 07:40 PM
Unless Larry Ellison's Oracle strikes some agreement to port ZFS to OS X it won't happen. Oracle changed the terms after they bought Sun Microsystems.

bedifferent
May 26, 2013, 07:53 PM
Unless Larry Ellison's Oracle strikes some agreement to port ZFS to OS X it won't happen. Oracle changed the terms after they bought Sun Microsystems.

Yup. Shame as 10.6 Leopard beta's had ZFS+ for a while, never made it to GM due to this reason. Finder definitely needs an overhaul.

As for Craig Federighi, he is the S.V.P. of Software Engineering responsible for 10.7 and 10.8. Bertrand Serlet announced his departure in 2009, and officially left in 2011. Federighi began work on 10.7 in 2009, with Forestall's assistance in bringing iOS integration further into OS X. For a while after Serlet's departure, there was not a S.V.P. of Software Engineering until Federighi was finally on the board.

Here is Federighi's 2010 Keynote for 10.7 Lion, which had some unfortunate "bugs" during certain tasks:

Gestures fail - Mac OS X 10.7 Preview & Magic Mouse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsHrwpAA--k)

Apple Mac OSX Lion demo by Craig Federighi at Back to the Mac (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHQHAIsGPQE)

Since Federighi, OS X has been a hot mess. From network protocol overhauls in 10.7 with SAMBA, AFP being a complete nightmare, to the disaster that was the Exposé/Spaces overhaul "Mission Control". Thankfully "TotalSpaces" came out to bring back the much desired 10.5/6 "Spaces" and Apple brought back certain "Exposé" options.

While no variant of OS X has been "perfect" (10.1/2, ugh), Serlet certainly produced the superior releases of OS X.

mdriftmeyer
May 26, 2013, 08:21 PM
Yup. Shame as 10.6 Leopard beta's had ZFS+ for a while, never made it to GM due to this reason. Finder definitely needs an overhaul.

As for Craig Federighi, he is the S.V.P. of Software Engineering responsible for 10.7 and 10.8. Bertrand Serlet announced his departure in 2009, and officially left in 2011. Federighi began work on 10.7 in 2009, with Forestall's assistance in bringing iOS integration further into OS X. For a while after Serlet's departure, there was not a S.V.P. of Software Engineering until Federighi was finally on the board.

Here is Federighi's 2010 Keynote for 10.7 Lion, which had some unfortunate "bugs" during certain tasks:

Gestures fail - Mac OS X 10.7 Preview & Magic Mouse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsHrwpAA--k)

Apple Mac OSX Lion demo by Craig Federighi at Back to the Mac (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHQHAIsGPQE)

Since Federighi, OS X has been a hot mess. From network protocol overhauls in 10.7 with SAMBA, AFP being a complete nightmare, to the disaster that was the Exposé/Spaces overhaul "Mission Control". Thankfully "TotalSpaces" came out to bring back the much desired 10.5/6 "Spaces" and Apple brought back certain "Exposé" options.

While no variant of OS X has been "perfect" (10.1/2, ugh), Serlet certainly produced the superior releases of OS X.

Having worked with Craig at NeXT and Apple anyone who speaks ill of his capabilities is either a computer invalent or arrogant beyond all belief. Craig is a brilliant Architect/Developer and has proven to be a superb SVP.

Bertrand is also brilliant, but neither guy is actually writing the issues you are frustrated with, just in charge of the teams who do the heavy lifting. The release schedules for OS X have slipped in the past 24 months because of the runaway success for iOS.

Throwing more bodies and ramping them up is not an answer. I know at least 50 ex-NeXT/ex-Apple fellow alums that could help but we're busy working in other companies. If Apple opens up their remote work structure I'm sure most would come back.

bedifferent
May 26, 2013, 08:57 PM
Having worked with Craig at NeXT and Apple anyone who speaks ill of his capabilities is either a computer invalent or arrogant beyond all belief. Craig is a brilliant Architect/Developer and has proven to be a superb SVP.


I never stated anything personally insulting towards or about Craig Federighi. My comments were professionally oriented, based on developer issues during the 10.7 release as well as other complaints from consumers through 10.8 I am not ignorant nor arrogant, and I do not appreciate taking a forum post to an inappropriate personal level. I am very certain Craig can run circles around me, as well as Bertrand. I'm sorry if you took it personally, was never my intention.

JordanNZ
May 26, 2013, 09:18 PM
Why not include zfs and why does this seem far fetched to you? Apple had completely ported zfs to snow leopard server, advertised it in advance as a major feature and then dropped it quietly, possibly because of licensing issues.

----------



As usual... Benchmarks are meaningless when they don't go Apples way..... When they do, benchmarks are extremely important.

Have you looked at the phoronix forums where these were posted?

The HD 3000 drivers have always been rubbish on OSX, and I'm in no way implying this is a positive thing. But take a look at what they actually benchmarked here. This is Sandy Bridge integrated graphics running some games using the quake 3 engine.

SlCKB0Y
May 26, 2013, 10:39 PM
The HD 3000 drivers have always been rubbish on OSX, and I'm in no way implying this is a positive thing. But take a look at what they actually benchmarked here. This is Sandy Bridge integrated graphics running some games using the quake 3 engine.

My point is that whilst the benchmarks they ran might not be the best indicator of performance of modern integrated graphics, you've completely failed to explain why there was a difference between Linux and OS X.

So whilst you've pointed out some valid technical problems with their testing, you've failed to explain the differences between in results. Did they employ testing methodology which they knew would favour the Linux drivers? and if so, how?

Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that Linux would outperform OS X, or even Windows. Intel has been actively involved in not just the development of their Linux drivers, but also in significant portions of the graphics subsystems within the OS itself both in the kernel and the userland. They do not have that kind of level of access to closed operating systems.

JordanNZ
May 26, 2013, 10:57 PM
My point is that whilst the benchmarks they ran might not be the best indicator of performance of modern integrated graphics, you've completely failed to explain why there was a difference between Linux and OS X.

So whilst you've pointed out some valid technical problems with their testing, you've failed to explain the differences between in results. Did they employ testing methodology which they knew would favour the Linux drivers? and if so, how?

Personally, it wouldn't surprise me in the least that Linux would outperform OS X, or even Windows. Intel has been actively involved in not just the development of their Linux drivers, but also in significant portions of the graphics subsystems within the OS itself both in the kernel and the userland. They do not have that kind of level of access to closed operating systems.

The Sandy Bridge drivers on OSX are practically legacy at this point. They're no longer getting the updates the HD 4000 is getting.

For instance, the HD 3000 was the only chipset NOT to get some of the new OpenGL extensions in 10.8.3.

https://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/capabilities/

Walter White
May 27, 2013, 12:40 AM
Why not include zfs and why does this seem far fetched to you? Apple had completely ported zfs to snow leopard server, advertised it in advance as a major feature and then dropped it quietly, possibly because of licensing issues.[COLOR="#808080"]


You always like to answer your own questions? They dropped it for whatever reason(s) they had to.

I don't see an entitlement here to petition things.

CmdrLaForge
May 27, 2013, 12:48 AM
My Macbook Pro has been flashing MAJOR graphics artifacts since upgrading to 10.8.3 (this did not happen in 10.8.2). When the glitches become severe enough, the system freezes up completely, with a hard restart being the only recovery.

I'm hoping that 10.8.4 will fix this issue!

Here are some videos of my problem:

http://youtu.be/YGae1ams0i8
http://youtu.be/tqO30pxdSOs
http://youtu.be/OIwSkIJduRc

Here is an image of my problem:

Image (https://discussions.apple.com/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadImage/2-21996729-250883/450-336/IMG_3595+copy.JPG)

Did you send this feedback to Apple?

http://www.apple.com/feedback

koban4max
May 27, 2013, 01:50 AM
Would you rather they didn't test the updates and there be a lot of bugs?

I rather they be quick about it and efficiently...don't ya agree?

----------

Are we going to regret 'biting', but I'll add my two cents to your reply to koban4max that a lot of beta testing by any company is not only good, but commendable. Who wants to buy buggy, laggy software that freezes and fails to live up to expected and advertised standards? Todays OSs are becoming exponentially more complicated, so thorough testing is imperative if a company wants to keep their customers happy.

With today's software, perfection from the get-go is a near-impossibility. There always still seem to be issues that slip through the cracks, and need to be updated later. Many glitches in fact.

Without this extended beta testing, these issues/glitches would be a lot worse.
i guess i can go with that.

iBug2
May 27, 2013, 03:26 AM
Yes. Bertrand Serlet's involvement ended at Snow Leopard, then Craig took over. What a sad day that was.

Why?

----------



Since Federighi, OS X has been a hot mess.

ML is a much better OS than SL. Then again I didn't have more issues with Lion than I had with Leopard or SL.


From network protocol overhauls in 10.7 with SAMBA, AFP being a complete nightmare, to the disaster that was the Exposé/Spaces overhaul "Mission Control". Thankfully "TotalSpaces" came out to bring back the much desired 10.5/6 "Spaces" and Apple brought back certain "Exposé" options.

So, one or two design differences and some removal of network protocols and suddenly the OS is a hot mess? Exaggerate much?


While no variant of OS X has been "perfect" (10.1/2, ugh), Serlet certainly produced the superior releases of OS X.

Or it was simply during his reign that OS releases which worked better for you were released. To me the best OS Apple has released so far is ML, hands down. I did boot into SL once or twice after I upgraded to ML and I can't even look at how horrible Safari scrolls on SL compared to ML.

My only real issue with ML and Lion is that Finder is unable to maximise windows correctly anymore.

JGRE
May 27, 2013, 06:19 AM
Screw it. Waiting for 10.9

Unless I know what will be in 10.9 you are only waiting for the unknown. Doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

MeAngry
May 27, 2013, 06:20 AM
I can't agree more with iBug2. 10.8.3 has been the absolutely best and most bug free release of OS X I've ever used. And I've been there since the early Tiger versions.

And to mention, I'm running this on a first generation rMBP. 10.8.2 was a mess in that it had a lot of bugs, but 10.8.3 has been only great.

justperry
May 27, 2013, 06:32 AM
I can't agree more with iBug2. 10.8.3 has been the absolutely best and most bug free release of OS X I've ever used. And I've been there since the early Tiger versions.

And to mention, I'm running this on a first generation rMBP. 10.8.2 was a mess in that it had a lot of bugs, but 10.8.3 has been only great.

Exactly, for YOU.

Plenty of bugs in 10.8.3:

Wifi
Sleep problems
Graphic Driver problems
Slow shut downs
No Menu Bar when starting up
Buggy Disk Utilities
Mail problems
Full screen App Multi Display support
.....And so on.

I have ML on a 2012 Mini and Leopard on a PB and the Powerbook is much more stable than ML 10.8.3.(Also startup and shuts down (much) faster)

iBug2
May 27, 2013, 07:32 AM
Exactly, for YOU.

Plenty of bugs in 10.8.3:

Wifi
Sleep problems
Graphic Driver problems
Slow shut downs
No Menu Bar when starting up
Buggy Disk Utilities
Mail problems
Full screen App Multi Display support
.....And so on.

I have ML on a 2012 Mini and Leopard on a PB and the Powerbook is much more stable than ML 10.8.3.(Also startup and shuts down (much) faster)

Among the issues you listed, sleep and wifi issues, graphic driver problems, no menu bar when starting up and mail issues are not specific to ML. Leopard SL and Lion had them too. Actually the menu bar thing existed since 10.0. Buggy Disk Utilities, what does that mean? And slow shut down is not a bug.

justperry
May 27, 2013, 07:43 AM
Among the issues you listed, sleep and wifi issues, graphic driver problems, no menu bar when starting up and mail issues are not specific to ML. Leopard SL and Lion had them too. Actually the menu bar thing existed since 10.0. Buggy Disk Utilities, what does that mean? And slow shut down is not a bug.

I never ever had the missing Menu bar before ML, I started from 10.0 b up to 10.5.8 then 10.8.

Buggy Disk Utilities, In the first month after I got this Mini I had Errors more than once, all of them solved by moving the file over to my Leopard PB.
My PB G3 and G4 never had sleep issues.

Slow shutdown is not a bug, no but it is annoying for some, hell, as I said before my 8 year old PB starts up and shuts down faster!

Wifi issues I had on the G3 but this was more a problem with the Airport card.

iBug2
May 27, 2013, 08:08 AM
I never ever had the missing Menu bar before ML, I started from 10.0 b up to 10.5.8 then 10.8.

I had it with every single OS X release since 10.0. I guess lucky you then. But it's not a serious bug. You open any app and the bar appears immediately.


Buggy Disk Utilities, In the first month after I got this Mini I had Errors more than once, all of them solved by moving the file over to my Leopard PB.
My PB G3 and G4 never had sleep issues.

What file? My Mac Pro had sleep issues with every OS since Leopard.



Slow shutdown is not a bug, no but it is annoying for some, hell, as I said before my 8 year old PB starts up and shuts down faster!

None of my macs did shut down fast enough for my taste. My Mac Pro shut down in 2 minutes sometimes with 10.5, now it's around 45 sec, still too long.


Wifi issues I had on the G3 but this was more a problem with the Airport card.I had wifi dropout issues with every portable I owned, under various OS X releases. I'm certain by now that those are not related to the OS but are about hardware and too many wifi signals being in the air.

justperry
May 27, 2013, 08:12 AM
What file?

Images like .dmg .ISO, want to restore to a USB, resource busy was one Error amongst others, and NO, it was not in use.

iBug2
May 27, 2013, 08:13 AM
Images like .dmg .ISO, want to restore to a USB, resource busy was one Error amongst others, and NO, it was not in use.

Oh yes, but that's also a very old bug. It goes back to Tiger at the least. I switched to 3rd party disk utility apps due to that bug years ago. And I still have no idea why it happens and when. Sometimes I can restore the image with no issues, other times the same image gives me the error.

justperry
May 27, 2013, 08:17 AM
Oh yes, but that's also a very old bug. It goes back to Tiger at the least. I switched to 3rd party disk utility apps due to that bug years ago.

I saw this one before in other versions as well, but not as many as with DU on ML.
It's buggy, when I moved it over it always worked in 10.5.8, and this was several times with several different Errors.

iBug2
May 27, 2013, 08:32 AM
I saw this one before in other versions as well, but not as many as with DU on ML.
It's buggy, when I moved it over it always worked in 10.5.8, and this was several times with several different Errors.

I use Techtool Pro volume cloning for that, but ofc that cannot be used from recovery partition.

Michael Goff
May 27, 2013, 08:33 AM
I rather they be quick about it and efficiently...don't ya agree?

Except that's not how programming for something as complex as an OS works....

Walter White
May 27, 2013, 10:56 AM
No Menu Bar when starting up


I remember this to be an issue in Tiger too, but just click where menu bar should be and it will appear.

As for other "bugs" it's normal software behaviour which depending on the one that uses may or may not be uncovered.

demodave
May 27, 2013, 10:59 AM
In response to "To me, it makes sense that they are taking longer with this release. It's the first one since Forstall was fired. That only happened very late in 2012. That means that the clock was reset by roughly 6 months. (I am sure that Apple is already developing the next .x or x.0 revision long before the "current, new" revision is released.) The much ballyhooed "de-Forstall-ization" process has to take a while."

Forestall wasn't part of OS X development.

Fair point, but I think it's fair to say that there is major upheaval due to Forstall's termination. The pile of resources that need to be applied to both OS X and iOS 7 will not suddenly grow in commensurate size to match the change of course that we are lead to anticipate from Jony Ive. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether we are talking about OSX of iOS: it's a sotware design team that now has to grown in a way that is directed by what used to be "only" a hardware design team.

A reboot is a reboot is a reboot.

bradhs
May 27, 2013, 12:03 PM
I opened up a bunch of bug reports on Exchange and Mail/Calendar. Looks like all my issues have been addressed in this build!!! It is much better at syncing Mail and Calendar, especially on slow and unreliable connections. I still have more testing to do!

Here's the latest list from 12E55:-

The 10.8.4 update is recommended for all OS X Mountain Lion users and has features and fixes that improve the stability, compatibility, and security of your Mac, including the following:

* Compatibility improvements when connecting to certain enterprise Wi-Fi networks
* Microsoft Exchange compatibility improvements in Calendar
* A fix for an issue that prevented FaceTime calls to non-U.S. phone numbers
* A fix for an issue that may prevent scheduled sleep after using Boot Camp
* Improved VoiceOver compatibility with text in PDF documents
* Includes Safari 6.0.5

pondosinatra
May 27, 2013, 12:59 PM
They really seem to be taking their time with this one. I hope the get most of the crap ironed out. OS X gets buggier and buggier with each new release.

Which is why I'm sticking with Snow Leopard...

Gnomepatrol
May 27, 2013, 03:01 PM
Is it the price that keeps you away? Or perhaps you hate the mess of upgrading your OS?

Definitely not price or an issue of causing problems upgrading. I just haven't seen a need to upgrade it. It did not really ad a lot in terms of functionality. I think, for myself at least, jumping from 10.7 to 10.9 would be a more substantial upgrade than from 7 to 8.

Concorde Rules
May 27, 2013, 03:49 PM
Re: This shutdown bug.

Can I ask why, in this day and age, why on earth people are doing it so often?!?

My macs never get restarted apart from Software updates or rebooting into Windows. MBP hasn't been restarted in 30 days and MP two weeks!!

If it is done on purpose (which it is) then it isn't a bug...

w0lf
May 27, 2013, 04:02 PM
Re: This shutdown bug.

Can I ask why, in this day and age, why on earth people are doing it so often?!?

My macs never get restarted apart from Software updates or rebooting into Windows. MBP hasn't been restarted in 30 days and MP two weeks!!

If it is done on purpose (which it is) then it isn't a bug...

Because we masturbate to watching our macbooks restart.

Why the hell do people keep asking this? It's a bug and it should be fixed that's all.

bedifferent
May 27, 2013, 07:32 PM
Why?

Why ask why?

ML is a much better OS than SL.

Why?

So, one or two design differences and some removal of network protocols and suddenly the OS is a hot mess? Exaggerate much?

Yup, and no.


Or it was simply during his reign that OS releases which worked better for you were released. To me the best OS Apple has released so far is ML, hands down.

Great, happy for you. Glad it works for you, for the rest of us, not so much.

MikhailT
May 27, 2013, 08:41 PM
Re: This shutdown bug.

Can I ask why, in this day and age, why on earth people are doing it so often?!?

My macs never get restarted apart from Software updates or rebooting into Windows. MBP hasn't been restarted in 30 days and MP two weeks!!

If it is done on purpose (which it is) then it isn't a bug...

You already answered your own question. Many people use Bootcamp-Windows to game (as OS X is much slower with games and doesn't have all of the games) and some people use professional software that requires full access to hardware that is slow to use via virtualization (which means they reboot daily during work week).

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 01:06 AM
Why ask why?
Why ask why ask why?



Why?


To begin with, finally we got a stable Finder. I was uploading 3-4 Finder crash reports every week to Apple during Leopard and SL and they kept replying to me with the same old "this is a known bug" for almost 3 years until it was finally fixed in Lion. And I don't think I had a single Finder crash since I installed ML. Big file transfers between AFP connected computers were completely unreliable, so I was always using cd to copy things over 10GB since Finder could crash at any time and waste 20 minutes of copy process.

Safari finally got actual smooth scrolling in ML, now I can read without fatigue during slow scrolling.

iCloud finally made sense in ML, I keep all my text edit files on cloud now and gone are the days I have to copy everything I typed on my laptop to my Mac Pro when I got home that day. Now the only thing I need is to have that ability on TexShop. Then I won't worry about syncing work and home ever again.

XCode got changed so we finally have an up to date compiler for default on OS X. It was a pain in the ass for me to install up to date versions of gcc on Leopard or SL because XCode came with a 3 year old version. Now we are using the latest version of LLVM all the time due to frequent LLVM updates in XCode.

QuickLook got much much better in ML especially, now we can open pictures in Preview after taking a look at QL. That really speeded up my process of checking my photos with QuickLook. Before, every time I chose a photo to look in detail, I'd have to memorise the name and then go back and search for it in the folder and then open it. Now I can actually use QuickLook for a quick browse.

And this is only the stuff I can think of in 10 minutes. I'm not even mentioning all the component updates we got during the last 3 years, like OpenGL 3 support. I don't play many games but World Of Warcraft finally got updated this year for OpenGL 3 and runs better on Lion/ML. The 64 bit kernel got standard and all libraries got updated for it so using X11 ports became less of pain in the ass. There were way too many issues when SL first got released, many ports didn't work and took long to iron out the issues to compile. I know this is not Apple's doing, but still. Anyway...






Great, happy for you. Glad it works for you, for the rest of us, not so much.

Or it works for the rest of us and not for you.

Walter White
May 28, 2013, 01:10 AM
Or it works for the rest of us and not for you.

Or he just likes to play victim.

justperry
May 28, 2013, 01:48 AM
Or he just likes to play victim.

Then tell me, why are there still many on SL, why after stop selling SL Apple decided to get it back, why do so many people prefer SL.

I never had SL, could not upgrade from PPC back then but it was similar to Leopard and probably the best/better OS.

I have an old PB on Leopard and a 2012 Mini, had to get used to ML, like it better than before but if I had the choice to go to SL I would go back.
Plenty of unnecessary eye candy in ML, still plenty of bugs although it is getting better.
Plenty of dumbing down the OS and some of them do not even work that well, TM for instance, not needed when there is CCC or the build in command line tools, yes the latter is geeky but CCC not so much.
iTunes, Appstore are slow as molasses, they sometimes don't even recover from slow or internet dropouts, really not that nice if you are on a capped internet connection.
Plenty of reasons I think ML still has too many problems, they won't get resolved like so many bugs in Lion, Apple will just release the next (unstable) OS without even addressing most of the bugs in the former OS.

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 01:55 AM
Then tell me, why are there still many on SL, why after stop selling SL Apple decided to get it back, why do so many people prefer SL.

Do you know something about the adoption rate we don't know about? This is true for every OS X release, not everyone upgrades. There were tons of Leopard users during SL as well especially since SL didn't offer many end-user oriented features over Leopard.


I have an old PB on Leopard and a 2012 Mini, had to get used to ML, like it better than before but if I had the choice to go to SL I would go back.
Plenty of unnecessary eye candy in ML, still plenty of bugs although it is getting better.

Same is true for SL. It had more unnecessary eyecandy compared to Leopard/Tiger imho. Get used to it. Every new OS release will have more eyecandy to tax the computer GPU more.


Plenty of dumbing down the OS

There's no such thing.


iTunes, Appstore are slow as molasses, they sometimes don't even recover from slow or internet dropouts, really not that nice if you are on a capped internet connection.

Nothing to do with the OS version.


Plenty of reasons I think ML still has too many problems, they won't get resolved like so many bugs in Lion, Apple will just release the next (unstable) OS without even addressing most of the bugs in the former OS.
True, but was true for every OS release as well. Too many SL bugs still persist. Hell too many Tiger bugs still persist.

justperry
May 28, 2013, 02:04 AM
Do you know something about the adoption rate we don't know about? This is true for every OS X release, not everyone upgrades. There were tons of Leopard users during SL as well especially since SL didn't offer many end-user oriented features over Leopard.

There are (plenty) of threads here about people going back to SL


There's no such thing.

Yes there is, I prefer it doing the way I want instead of doing it the way Apple thinks is best for you.
This of course again is personal.


Nothing to do with the OS version.

Well not with the version but they do come with the OS.

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 02:16 AM
There are (plenty) of threads here about people going back to SL

Like there were plenty threads about People going back to "insert old OS version"?

I ask again, do you know the adoption rate? If you have numbers, post them. Also you need to remember that OS X userbase is constantly growing. It tripled between 2007 and 2009. So more and more people are using OS X so more and more people will be complaining and posting on forums every time they don't like something. The number of "I'm going back" posts is only indicative if you take into account the growth.




Yes there is, I prefer it doing the way I want instead of doing it the way Apple thinks is best for you.
This of course again is personal.

So don't use an Apple OS then. It's not like it's the first time Apple is deciding to change/remove certain things in OS X. It was always like this. Apple's way or the highway. OS X never offered enough customisation. I hate it as well but that's the way it has always been and nothing specific to Lion or ML. I also miss the old Expose.




Well not with the version but they do come with the OS.

iTunes comes with SL as well. App Store also with the latest update of SL.

justperry
May 28, 2013, 02:57 AM
Like there were plenty threads about People going back to "insert old OS version"?I ask again, do you know the adoption rate? If you have numbers, post them.
Also you need to remember that OS X userbase is constantly growing. It tripled between 2007 and 2009. So more and more people are using OS X so more and more people will be complaining and posting on forums every time they don't like something. The number of "I'm going back" posts is only indicative if you take into account the growth.


What about this one:

http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share_by_os_version.php?1=1&timeframe=last_6&interval=month&chart_id=4&fltr_br=&fltr_os=&fltr_se=&fltr_cn=&limit%5B%5D=mac



So don't use an Apple OS then. It's not like it's the first time Apple is deciding to change/remove certain things in OS X. It was always like this. Apple's way or the highway. OS X never offered enough customisation. I hate it as well but that's the way it has always been and nothing specific to Lion or ML. I also miss the old Expose.

Why, I am not saying it is a bad OS, I just point out things, nothing more, nothing less.

ItWasNotMe
May 28, 2013, 03:07 AM
Why ask why ask why?
...

Safari finally got actual smooth scrolling in ML (10.8.3), now I can read without fatigue during slow scrolling.
...


You are having a laarf aren't you?:D

yep I can scroll Safari Version 6.0.4 (8536.29.13) in ML (10.8.3) really quickly and smoothly, except most of the time its initially scrolling over whitespace as it hasn't rendered that part of the page yet.

No, its not the rig, network etc as I also run Safari 5.1.7 (7534.57.2) in Vista on a VM on the same kit and don't have any such issues at all.

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 03:14 AM
What about this one:

http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share_by_os_version.php?1=1&timeframe=last_6&interval=month&chart_id=4&fltr_br=&fltr_os=&fltr_se=&fltr_cn=&limit%5B%5D=mac

This tells me still 1/3 of mac users use SL. Nothing surprising here. There were more Leopard users a year after SL's release as well.



Why, I am not saying it is a bad OS, I just point out things, nothing more, nothing less.
The problem is that the things that annoy you aren't specific to ML.

justperry
May 28, 2013, 03:20 AM
This tells me still 1/3 of mac users use SL. Nothing surprising here. There were more Leopard users a year after SL's release as well.

35% is quite remarkable for a 4 year old OS, but again that is my opinion.


The problem is that the things that annoy you aren't specific to ML.

As I told you before, I never had so many problems before, maybe I am lucky, but maybe I am not alone.

Oh, and I am not that easily annoyed.:) (It does not annoy me, just remarks)

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 03:27 AM
35% is quite remarkable for a 4 year old OS, but again that is my opinion.

Considering Windows XP (12 years old) still is the dominant Windows OS, I don't know. And I also don't know if those numbers are accurate. http://www.netmarketshare.com/?source=NASite shows that 10.8 has 1.5 times more marketshare than 10.6 which conflicts your data. But even that site shows 10.6 has a 28% marketshare. But none of this is surprising. Old OS's continue to get used.




As I told you before, I never had so many problems before, maybe I am lucky, but maybe I am not alone.

Oh, and I am not that easily annoyed.:) (It does not annoy me, just remarks)

I had the most problems with 10.0. As did everyone probably. You are lucky you weren't around back then I suppose.

justperry
May 28, 2013, 03:34 AM
Considering Windows XP (12 years old) still is the dominant Windows OS, I don't know. And I also don't know if those numbers are accurate. http://www.netmarketshare.com/?source=NASite shows that 10.8 has 1.5 times more marketshare than 10.6 which conflicts your data. But even that site shows 10.6 has a 28% marketshare. But none of this is surprising. Old OS's continue to get used.

Actually I was about to edit my last post to, If those numbers are true I really think it is high, ML-only 28% after 1 year, just a few more % than Lion, and still fairly far behind SL.

Edit: Don't get your link.


I had the most problems with 10.0. As did everyone probably. You are lucky you weren't around back then I suppose.

I was there, started on Classic and got the 10.0b when it was released, have used all of them except 10.6 and 10.7, just because the G3 Pismo and later on the PB G4 were going strong, still use the last one daily.

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 03:40 AM
You are having a laarf aren't you?:D

yep I can scroll Safari Version 6.0.4 (8536.29.13) in ML (10.8.3) really quickly and smoothly, except most of the time its initially scrolling over whitespace as it hasn't rendered that part of the page yet.

Before Safari wouldn't show you what it didn't render, now it shows you a blank page until it renders. It's a change in behaviour only. Not an actual issue.

----------

Actually I was about to edit my last post to, If those numbers are true I really think it is high, ML-only 28% after 1 year, just a few more % than Lion, and still fairly far behind SL.

Edit: Don't get your link.

Ah sorry

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

This is the actual link. ML has 44% share and Lion/SL have 28%.




I was there, started on Classic and got the 10.0b when it was released, have used all of them except 10.6 and 10.7, just because the G3 Pismo and later on the PB G4 was going strong, still use the last one daily.

Well then you cannot say you have more issues with 10.8 than you had with 10.0. :) 10.0 was a mess. 10.1 as well.

ItWasNotMe
May 28, 2013, 04:14 AM
Before Safari wouldn't show you what it didn't render, now it shows you a blank page until it renders. It's a change in behaviour only. Not an actual issue.

Not completely true here...and whether its an issue or not is just opinion.

Agree behaviour has changed, 5 appears to render the text first and then the graphics, so you can at least start reading the page whilst waiting for the accompanying fluff to appear.

Behaviour 6.0.4
Yes is completely blank initially, then appears to be:
- Completely render horizontal slice of page (typically what it thinks is on display)
- Render rest of page
So quite easy to create nonsense display by:
- Navigate to page
- Start scrolling to where you think relevant content may be
- Have part rendered
- Scroll up and down and see white-space above and below
- Page is now useless for a while

This may be exactly what the developer intended it to do. In my opinion, not useful - issue.

Also, for me, 5 almost invariably renders the full page more quickly than 6; and remember 5 is running on a VM.

Kariya
May 28, 2013, 04:31 AM
lol. Lets see how long the Snow Leopard lovers can cling on to their oh so beloved and bug free OS that's full of unicorns.

Soon you'll stop receiving security updates, then software will stop been supported for your OS, then hardware will promptly follow suit.

I guess Windows 8 or 9 will be in your futures soon.

justperry
May 28, 2013, 04:54 AM
Ah sorry

http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=10&qpcustomd=0

This is the actual link. ML has 44% share and Lion/SL have 28%.

I think you forgot to take 10.4-5 into account, I did and came to the next conclusion/calculation.

ML 40.5%
SL ~26%
L ~25.5%

In the end which site is more accurate????

Well then you cannot say you have more issues with 10.8 than you had with 10.0. :) 10.0 was a mess. 10.1 as well.

Nitpicking:p, both you and I know they weren't good and that we talk about min. Leopard and SL.;)

JGRE
May 28, 2013, 05:22 AM
Then tell me, why are there still many on SL, why after stop selling SL Apple decided to get it back, why do so many people prefer SL.

I never had SL, could not upgrade from PPC back then but it was similar to Leopard and probably the best/better OS.

I have an old PB on Leopard and a 2012 Mini, had to get used to ML, like it better than before but if I had the choice to go to SL I would go back.
Plenty of unnecessary eye candy in ML, still plenty of bugs although it is getting better.
Plenty of dumbing down the OS and some of them do not even work that well, TM for instance, not needed when there is CCC or the build in command line tools, yes the latter is geeky but CCC not so much.
iTunes, Appstore are slow as molasses, they sometimes don't even recover from slow or internet dropouts, really not that nice if you are on a capped internet connection.
Plenty of reasons I think ML still has too many problems, they won't get resolved like so many bugs in Lion, Apple will just release the next (unstable) OS without even addressing most of the bugs in the former OS.

What are the pro's of SL compared to ML? SL worked fine, ML works faster, just more bugs. If Apple would fix the bugs, I don't see why anyone would stay on SL. Am I missing something? (probably you gonna answer "Yes, ......")

LV426
May 28, 2013, 05:49 AM
What about this one:
http://www.statowl.com/operating_system_market_share_by_os_version.php?1=1&timeframe=last_6&interval=month&chart_id=4&fltr_br=&fltr_os=&fltr_se=&fltr_cn=&limit%5B%5D=mac


Our company hosts many heavily-used websites for which we run Google Analytics. In the last month, the breakdown of Macintosh OS usage is as follows:

Lion 36.2%
Mountain Lion 31.2%
Snow Leopard 25.9%

Over the past 3 months, Lion usage has dropped a little, Mountain Lion has increased by four percentage points. Snow Leopard has increased by about half a percentage point.

Concorde Rules
May 28, 2013, 05:51 AM
You already answered your own question. Many people use Bootcamp-Windows to game (as OS X is much slower with games and doesn't have all of the games) and some people use professional software that requires full access to hardware that is slow to use via virtualization (which means they reboot daily during work week).

Well in that case, I don't have this problem as both my machines restart within 10 or so seconds :p

SlCKB0Y
May 28, 2013, 06:46 AM
The Sandy Bridge drivers on OSX are practically legacy at this point. They're no longer getting the updates the HD 4000 is getting.

For instance, the HD 3000 was the only chipset NOT to get some of the new OpenGL extensions in 10.8.3.

https://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/capabilities/

Are you suggesting That the lack of those particular extensions explain the performance difference?

MrNomNoms
May 28, 2013, 07:48 AM
Are you suggesting That the lack of those particular extensions explain the performance difference?

No, I would say that he is arguing the case that since Apple isn't spending the time to provide said extension functionality for HD 3000 hardware then it is highly likely that they're not going to spend the time and money on optimising the existing code already either. It is important to realise that issues with OpenGL I would say half have more to do with the design of OpenGL (for reasons only known to Apple) than necessarily the drivers with the other half have to do with developers unfamiliar with how to get the most performance for the game when using the OpenGL implementation provided by Apple. I've seen games that have resulted in performance improves, such as Civilisation V, over several releases because it has required the vendor to put some time and effort into ensuring that they're doing things in the most efficient way possible. For years games developers have had no qualm spending such time when developing for DirectX so I don't see why it should be any different when it comes to vendors optimising their code for OS X.

milo
May 28, 2013, 09:26 AM
Is it the price that keeps you away? Or perhaps you hate the mess of upgrading your OS?

The biggest reason to stick with 10.6.8 and not upgrade is performance. Some nice things in .7 and .8 but personally I don't find enough to outweigh the down sides and recommend upgrading. It used to be that major updates were a no brainer, I don't think there was ever an OSX update where people recommended against upgrading to the degree that happened with 10.6.8 and the versions after it.

For machines that can't run 10.8, I'd recommend staying with 10.6.8 indefinitely.

What are the pro's of SL compared to ML? SL worked fine, ML works faster, just more bugs.

"More bugs" seems to answer your own question. And ML isn't faster for many users (it is faster than 10.7 at least).

pondosinatra
May 28, 2013, 09:39 AM
lol. Lets see how long the Snow Leopard lovers can cling on to their oh so beloved and bug free OS that's full of unicorns.

Soon you'll stop receiving security updates, then software will stop been supported for your OS, then hardware will promptly follow suit.

I guess Windows 8 or 9 will be in your futures soon.

Some flavour of Linux for me...

----------

The biggest reason to stick with 10.6.8 and not upgrade is performance. Some nice things in .7 and .8 but personally I don't find enough to outweigh the down sides and recommend upgrading...

That was my issue. When Lion came out it was mostly superflous crap that was more about integrating iOS into OSX than having useful features. Then all the people started complaining about the bugs. From what I understand, ML mostly fixed things - but again I don't really care. Nothing compelling to me.

koban4max
May 28, 2013, 09:47 AM
Except that's not how programming for something as complex as an OS works....

really...and I thought snow leopard was efficient....

Michael Goff
May 28, 2013, 10:01 AM
really...and I thought snow leopard was efficient....

You do realize that Snow Leopard was a lot less complex when compared to Lion and Mountain Lion, right?

Also, I was pointing out to "quick updates" being a good thing.

bedifferent
May 28, 2013, 10:43 AM
Why ask why ask why?

Why ask why ask why ask why?



Or it works for the rest of us and not for you.

Sure. :)

Or he just likes to play victim.

It's fun :)

In all seriousness, what's the point? These threads never change anyone's opinions and merely become a back and forth, tedious drudgery of who is "the most smartest". I've learned to just play along and not give in, it's more fun that way. Life's too short to tie oneself as loyal to an operating system on a computer. It's not too dissimilar from politics these days. I'll just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. :)

Walter White
May 28, 2013, 10:46 AM
Then tell me, why are there still many on SL, why after stop selling SL Apple decided to get it back, why do so many people prefer SL.



Well there are many things like stupidity or just doesn't know/care, hardware limitations, genuinely likes it better.


But doesn't mean that next thing is worse.

iBug2
May 28, 2013, 01:30 PM
Life's too short to tie oneself as loyal to an operating system on a computer. It's not too dissimilar from politics these days. I'll just keep swimming, just keep swimming, just keep swimming. :)
Actually it's quite the opposite. Life's too short to keep switching operating systems and learning everything once more. I don't have time for that. I need my OS's running and not waste time on the OS itself but on the apps I need to use.

dyn
May 28, 2013, 02:58 PM
As for Craig Federighi, he is the S.V.P. of Software Engineering responsible for 10.7 and 10.8. Bertrand Serlet announced his departure in 2009, and officially left in 2011. Federighi began work on 10.7 in 2009, with Forestall's assistance in bringing iOS integration further into OS X. For a while after Serlet's departure, there was not a S.V.P. of Software Engineering until Federighi was finally on the board.

On march 23 2011 an official press release was released that Bertrand Serlet will leave the company in 2011 and Craig Frederighi succeeding him. (https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/03/23Bertrand-Serlet-to-Leave-Apple.html) A preparation of 2 years is a bit too much for something like that. Things like this take about 6 months to a year. This also means that from 2009 to 2011 both were working on OS X due to moving over leadership. Thus Craig Federighi can not be blamed for Lion. If he was to blame then so is Bertrand Serlet.


Here is Federighi's 2010 Keynote for 10.7 Lion, which had some unfortunate "bugs" during certain tasks:

Do check out the keynotes before that and after that. Almost all of them have some sort of "unfortunate bugs" popping up.


Since Federighi, OS X has been a hot mess. From network protocol overhauls in 10.7 with SAMBA, AFP being a complete nightmare, to the disaster that was the Exposé/Spaces overhaul "Mission Control".

Expose is always a mess for quite a lot of people. It was a mess in 10.4, it was a mess in 10.5, it was a mess in 10.6, it was a mess in 10.7 and people think it's a mess in 10.8 too. The problem is that it touches a very personal part of an OS: workflow. Everybody wants it a different way so there will always be a lot of people who'll dislike it.

AFP in itself is not the nicest protocol there is. Neither is something like Samba. I remember how much havoc AFP and SMB wreaked in 10.5 and 10.6 with quite a lot of people having data corruption. There have always been many many problems with those two and especially AFP. It has never been better than it is right now, especially with the SMB/CIFS support. It finally works properly with things like DFS and the new networking stuff in Windows Vista/7/2008/2012. It's absolutely the best decision they made: ditch Samba and fix something ourselves that actually works properly. It is far more reliable and so is Finder in regards of network drives since the rewrite in Lion (thank goodness for smbclient in Terminal).


Thankfully "TotalSpaces" came out to bring back the much desired 10.5/6 "Spaces" and Apple brought back certain "Exposé" options.

Indeed it did. It's app like these that make an OS useful for anybody. That's how the ecosystem should be: get as much stuff in that pleases a lot of people but do it in such a way that 3rd party's can hook into it and make something that pleases other people. I don't mind developers choosing something as long as I have some way of changing it.


While no variant of OS X has been "perfect" (10.1/2, ugh), Serlet certainly produced the superior releases of OS X.
Looking at all the problems I see that stability has gotten better over time but at a cost of new useful features. When 10.4 and 10.5 was released there were a lot of reasons to upgrade. Since 10.6 that has gone downhill a bit but so did the price tag!

Walter White
May 28, 2013, 03:20 PM
On march 23 2011 an official press release was released that Bertrand Serlet will leave the company in 2011 and Craig Frederighi succeeding him. (https://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/03/23Bertrand-Serlet-to-Leave-Apple.html) A preparation of 2 years is a bit too much for something like that. Things like this take about 6 months to a year. This also means that from 2009 to 2011 both were working on OS X due to moving over leadership. Thus Craig Federighi can not be blamed for Lion. If he was to blame then so is Bertrand Serlet.


Do check out the keynotes before that and after that. Almost all of them have some sort of "unfortunate bugs" popping up.


Expose is always a mess for quite a lot of people. It was a mess in 10.4, it was a mess in 10.5, it was a mess in 10.6, it was a mess in 10.7 and people think it's a mess in 10.8 too. The problem is that it touches a very personal part of an OS: workflow. Everybody wants it a different way so there will always be a lot of people who'll dislike it.

AFP in itself is not the nicest protocol there is. Neither is something like Samba. I remember how much havoc AFP and SMB wreaked in 10.5 and 10.6 with quite a lot of people having data corruption. There have always been many many problems with those two and especially AFP. It has never been better than it is right now, especially with the SMB/CIFS support. It finally works properly with things like DFS and the new networking stuff in Windows Vista/7/2008/2012. It's absolutely the best decision they made: ditch Samba and fix something ourselves that actually works properly. It is far more reliable and so is Finder in regards of network drives since the rewrite in Lion (thank goodness for smbclient in Terminal).


Indeed it did. It's app like these that make an OS useful for anybody. That's how the ecosystem should be: get as much stuff in that pleases a lot of people but do it in such a way that 3rd party's can hook into it and make something that pleases other people. I don't mind developers choosing something as long as I have some way of changing it.


Looking at all the problems I see that stability has gotten better over time but at a cost of new useful features. When 10.4 and 10.5 was released there were a lot of reasons to upgrade. Since 10.6 that has gone downhill a bit but so did the price tag!

The smell of common sense...

bedifferent
May 28, 2013, 04:09 PM
The smell of common sense...

Meh, moving on.

Walter White
May 28, 2013, 04:25 PM
Meh, moving on.

Left, right, left, right ...

koban4max
May 28, 2013, 04:52 PM
You do realize that Snow Leopard was a lot less complex when compared to Lion and Mountain Lion, right?

Also, I was pointing out to "quick updates" being a good thing.

I don't think SL was that simple...it's complex as well. The problem is they don't care to fix the problems.

Also, quick update is good...quick and more..with quality fix would be great.

Michael Goff
May 28, 2013, 06:13 PM
I don't think SL was that simple...it's complex as well. The problem is they don't care to fix the problems.

Also, quick update is good...quick and more..with quality fix would be great.

SL was not simple, but it wasn't as complex as Mountain Lion.

Also, you can't have "quick and quality" fixes that do much of anything. The quickly updated browsers don't always get it right, sometimes they have to send out a quick patch afterward.

You expect a .x.x update to be quick and be good?

JordanNZ
May 28, 2013, 06:27 PM
Are you suggesting That the lack of those particular extensions explain the performance difference?

No, just showing the the HD 3000 is pretty much dead in regards to driver updates on OSX.

thomaskc
May 28, 2013, 08:52 PM
I might just stop reading these beta release threads all together... people waste way too much time discussing things they know nothing about. I don't know what it is, but it's only apple product users that can make 50-100 page threads about what they think or guess will or should happen with any given thing, form, type, shape etc. discuss what we have, and wait until apple releases the info on the new things. This blind and childish guessing game is getting old.

Anyway, I have a deadline at work, see you all next week for another beta update ;)

MikhailT
May 29, 2013, 12:31 AM
Well in that case, I don't have this problem as both my machines restart within 10 or so seconds :p

Exactly, you're not affected. The times that people are reporting are far longer than 25 seconds just to shut down before it reboots. They were used to your times and one of the ML updates screwed it up. That's what the issue is all about, they wanted the original sub-10 seconds that OS X was able to do before.

MrNomNoms
May 29, 2013, 01:09 AM
Exactly, you're not affected. The times that people are reporting are far longer than 25 seconds just to shut down before it reboots. They were used to your times and one of the ML updates screwed it up. That's what the issue is all about, they wanted the original sub-10 seconds that OS X was able to do before.

Yes and people like me have been asking for those people with the issues to do a clean install, gradually install applications till they find that the shut down is slow - then isolate that programme which caused the problem then notify the software vendor that their software is affecting OS X performance. Rather than a logical approach like that what we see on this forum are people throwing a wobbly thinking that some how if they make a big enough noise that their problem will be solved.

Walter White
May 29, 2013, 01:20 AM
Yes and people like me have been asking for those people with the issues to do a clean install, gradually install applications till they find that the shut down is slow - then isolate that programme which caused the problem then notify the software vendor that their software is affecting OS X performance. Rather than a logical approach like that what we see on this forum are people throwing a wobbly thinking that some how if they make a big enough noise that their problem will be solved.

Shut down is slow even after clean install of 10.8.3 and nothing else.

iBug2
May 29, 2013, 01:39 AM
Shut down is slow even after clean install of 10.8.3 and nothing else.

How slow? My rMBP shuts down in 25 sec or so. That's not slow. My Mac Pro shuts down a lot slower but that's due to too many external storage being mounted on desktop. If I dismount all of them first, it shuts down much faster.

Walter White
May 29, 2013, 03:35 AM
How slow? My rMBP shuts down in 25 sec or so. That's not slow. My Mac Pro shuts down a lot slower but that's due to too many external storage being mounted on desktop. If I dismount all of them first, it shuts down much faster.

I have a MacBook 3,1 base model. No upgrades and a very old Leopard install. Shut down is under 5 seconds. Tiger was instant. Now top of the line latest 27" iMac with SSD and 32 GB of RAM takes up to a minute. Clean or dirty install it's not 3rd party software that causes it.

I tried 10.8.0 on a 2011 iMac - normal shut down. 10.8.1 and 10.8.2 - normal shut down. Install 10.8.3. and all goes to ****.

JGRE
May 29, 2013, 03:59 AM
How slow? My rMBP shuts down in 25 sec or so. That's not slow. My Mac Pro shuts down a lot slower but that's due to too many external storage being mounted on desktop. If I dismount all of them first, it shuts down much faster.

Shut down was instantly under SL......

bedifferent
May 29, 2013, 09:02 AM
Left, right, left, right ...

No, it's right, left, right, left. Sheesh. ;)

For those claiming Serlet had a hand in 10.7 Lion, from Apple's own release, March 2011:

Bertrand Serlet to Leave Apple (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/03/23Bertrand-Serlet-to-Leave-Apple.html)

CUPERTINO, California—March 23, 2011—Apple® today announced that Bertrand Serlet, Apple’s senior vice president of Mac® Software Engineering, will be leaving the company. Craig Federighi, Apple’s vice president of Mac Software Engineering, will assume Serlet’s responsibilities and report to Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. Federighi is responsible for the development of Mac OS® X and has been managing the Mac OS software engineering group for the past two years.

“I’ve worked with Steve for 22 years and have had an incredible time developing products at both NeXT and Apple, but at this point, I want to focus less on products and more on science,” said Bertrand Serlet, Apple’s senior vice president of Software Engineering. “Craig has done a great job managing the Mac OS team for the past two years, Lion is a great release and the transition should be seamless.”

Federighi worked at NeXT, followed by Apple, and then spent a decade at Ariba where he held several roles including vice president of Internet Services and chief technology officer. He returned to Apple in 2009 to lead Mac OS X engineering. Federighi holds a Master of Science degree in Computer Science and a Bachelor of Science in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from the University of California, Berkeley.

Serlet joined Apple in 1997, and has been involved in the definition, development and creation of Mac OS X, the world’s most advanced operating system. Before joining Apple, Serlet spent four years at Xerox PARC, then joined NeXT in 1989. Serlet holds a doctorate in Computer Science from the University of Orsay, France.

Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple has reinvented the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently introduced iPad 2 which is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices.

Serlet officially announced his leave from Apple in March, 2011 but was not the head of OS X Software Engineering as Craig was already working on OS X since 2009. Serlet was riding out his tenure, when he could officially leave Apple made the press release. Serlet most likely assisted Craig while riding out his position, but his influence on OS X ended with 10.6. :)

Ddyracer
May 29, 2013, 06:32 PM
For those claiming Serlet had a hand in 10.7 Lion, from Apple's own release, March 2011:


Makes sense, Thanks.

cmChimera
May 29, 2013, 06:52 PM
No, it's right, left, right, left. Sheesh. ;)

For those claiming Serlet had a hand in 10.7 Lion, from Apple's own release, March 2011:

Bertrand Serlet to Leave Apple (http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2011/03/23Bertrand-Serlet-to-Leave-Apple.html)



Serlet officially announced his leave from Apple in March, 2011 but was not the head of OS X Software Engineering as Craig was already working on OS X since 2009. Serlet was riding out his tenure, when he could officially leave Apple made the press release. Serlet most likely assisted Craig while riding out his position, but his influence on OS X ended with 10.6. :)

I highly doubt Federighi came in and told Serlet to sit down and shut up. It's far more likely that Serlet had a large part in building Lion.

Michael Goff
May 29, 2013, 07:07 PM
Anyone running into this wonderful bug where the computer refuses to come back from sleep?

Because it's been happening since I updated. :|

bedifferent
May 29, 2013, 10:24 PM
Anyone running into this wonderful bug where the computer refuses to come back from sleep?

Because it's been happening since I updated. :|

That's not a bug, it's a feature :p

Besides, why are you putting your Mac to sleep? No one does that any more /sarcasm