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MacRumors
May 26, 2013, 09:56 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/26/eu-regulators-questioning-carriers-over-apples-iphone-contract-demands/)


Back in March, we reported (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/03/22/apples-contracts-with-european-iphone-carriers-examined-for-potential-antitrust-issues/) that European Union regulators were beginning to take a look at Apple's contracts with carriers, questioning whether Apple's strict terms regarding sales commitments and other factors have amounted to anti-competitive behavior.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/05/mobistar_be_iphone_banner.jpg
Financial Times now reports (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/d82487f4-c609-11e2-99d1-00144feab7de.html) that the EU is ramping up its interest in Apple's policies, sending out questionnaires to the carriers in order to gather more information about their agreements with Apple.The nine-page questionnaire sent to telecoms groups primarily relates to sales practices, including whether Apple forces groups to buy a minimum number of iPhones, restrictions on the use of marketing budgets, and clauses that ensure Apple is always offered no worse subsidies and sales terms than other smartphone makers.

It also asks whether Apple places technical or contractual restrictions on the iPhone 5 that mean it cannot be used on high-speed 4G networks in Europe.While regulators are clearly focused on Apple's behavior, they do acknowledge that competition in the smartphone market has increased, with Samsung rapidly gaining ground and even Nokia and BlackBerry contributing viable alternatives for customers.

The carriers have until June 17 to respond to the questionnaires, and the European Commission will use the results to help it decide whether to launch a formal probe into Apple's tactics.

Article Link: EU Regulators Questioning Carriers Over Apple's iPhone Contract Demands (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/26/eu-regulators-questioning-carriers-over-apples-iphone-contract-demands/)



thacube
May 26, 2013, 10:08 PM
why wouldn't apple want the iphone 5 on high speed 4g in europe?

macs4nw
May 26, 2013, 10:25 PM
It seems not a day goes by that APPLE isn't under the microscope somewhere.
An excellent incentive to run the company squeaky-clean. What other company could stand this kind of intense scrutiny? Go :apple:

genovelle
May 26, 2013, 10:34 PM
I'm sure some anonymous concerned party (competitor) lodged a complaint. If apple requires a commitment to invest in making their popular phone compatible with a certain carrier and the carrier clearly as other options, them what have they done wrong? These same companies benefit from Apple's loyal customers and marketing. Many of the phone companies don't promote the iPhone once the get going. they push any and every other phone.

diazj3
May 26, 2013, 11:33 PM
I'm sure some anonymous concerned party (competitor) lodged a complaint.

Oh, sure! Because Apple NEVER does anything wrong to customers or clients. Any complain must be the product of a competitor's envy,and nothing else. Always.

[/s] :rolleyes:

charlituna
May 26, 2013, 11:37 PM
why wouldn't apple want the iphone 5 on high speed 4g in europe?

of course they would want it. But if it's like the US where there are flavors of cell service they might not be supporting every single variant, which the EU could see as one of those 'technical restrictions'

ArtOfWarfare
May 26, 2013, 11:58 PM
why wouldn't apple want the iphone 5 on high speed 4g in europe?

It's an engineering tactic: make your product competitive, but leave yourself room for improvement for the next generation. It's a way of easily making repeat customers (they'll buy this year's model without feature X and next year's with feature X - even though feature X was ready in time for last year's model) and repeat (aka loyal) customers are worth a lot more than one time customers - not only will they empty their own wallet for you - they'll encourage their friends to do the same.

I'm not saying that's what Apple did here - I'm just giving it as a potential reason.

Mackan
May 27, 2013, 12:18 AM
This should be front page news instead of some home button part leak, or an analyst taking ********.

You can bet that under the surface, there's a lot of dirty tactics going on, that you as consumer should be aware of.

KiwiAdventure
May 27, 2013, 01:34 AM
It is against the law in a lot of countries to price fix and tell retailers you must sell at this price. If retailers want to sell products at below cost or even more then recommended retail price Apple cannot stop this under any means.

The one thing Apple has is all their products has good resale value.

DMH3006
May 27, 2013, 02:07 AM
I see no issues.
Of course if Apple can ensure they'll buy a minimum of devices they will,its just good business as are the clauses that they can't be offered worse subsidies than other companies.

roadbloc
May 27, 2013, 02:09 AM
It seems not a day goes by that APPLE isn't under the microscope somewhere.
An excellent incentive to run the company squeaky-clean. What other company could stand this kind of intense scrutiny? Go :apple:

When a company is on virgin territory, it is wise to keep an eye on it. Just like Microsoft throughout the 90s.

NightFox
May 27, 2013, 02:50 AM
I see no issues.
Of course if Apple can ensure they'll buy a minimum of devices they will,its just good business as are the clauses that they can't be offered worse subsidies than other companies.

Whilst it may be good business to use a position of strength (i.e. carriers can't afford not to carry the iPhone), it's also often not in the consumers' interest to allow companies to exploit this type of advantage to the extent that it can dictate and manipulate the market.

In some ways I like the fact the Apple has turned around the carrier/supplier relationship, I don't have to suffer a carrier's splash screen and bloatware on a carrier-crippled device when I use my iPhone like I always used to have to when carriers called the shots, but when it comes down to trying to gain an unfair advantage that isn't open to the competition then I think the EU is right to step in to ensure the playing field remains level and consumers don't lose out.

Smartass
May 27, 2013, 03:08 AM
It also asks whether Apple places technical or contractual restrictions on the iPhone 5 that mean it cannot be used on high-speed 4G networks in Europe.
This i've noticed that also, you cannot use LTE with my operator since apple didnt "approve it" (because they're not selling iphones). How dumb is that, year 2013 and you need an "apple approved operator" so you can have LTE on your phone?:rolleyes:

abz1981
May 27, 2013, 04:19 AM
Well I am for one glad of this probe by the European Union only for the technical restrictions of the Iphone 5. Apple should have ensured that they enabled 800mhz band support for LTE in the Iphone 5. As 90% of European Carriers are unable to support LTE due to them having 800mhz LTE bands only.

So hopefully Apple will release some sort of update to the existing Iphone 5 in order for it to support 800mhz LTE band or if they bring out the Iphone 5S to allow some sort of trade in exchange for current Iphone 5 users to obtain Iphone 5S to support all LTE bands.

Sincci
May 27, 2013, 04:35 AM
So hopefully Apple will release some sort of update to the existing Iphone 5 in order for it to support 800mhz LTE band or if they bring out the Iphone 5S to allow some sort of trade in exchange for current Iphone 5 users to obtain Iphone 5S to support all LTE bands.

This really isn't something that Apple would ever do.. their only solution for those people who wish to have a full support for all LTE bands is to buy a new phone.

Besides, it's not enough just to have support for 800Mhz, they really need to have a support for 2600Mhz too since most of the Nordic countries have build majority of their LTE networks based on that band.

abz1981
May 27, 2013, 05:15 AM
This really isn't something that Apple would ever do.. their only solution for those people who wish to have a full support for all LTE bands is to buy a new phone.

Besides, it's not enough just to have support for 800Mhz, they really need to have a support for 2600Mhz too since most of the Nordic countries have build majority of their LTE networks based on that band.

In that case they should support all LTE bands. I do not see why a new phone should have to be purchased. Yes it may be an idea of getting more customers and making money. however there should be some sort of loyalty option for existing customers. Dont get me wrong, I am not apple bashing or anything. I love my apple products. But this situation with the Ip5 gets me annoyed.

majkom
May 27, 2013, 05:21 AM
Apple tried to take some power from telcos... and almost succeeded, unfortunately android gave that power back to those evil companies.. so for me, whatever apple does to weaken telcos, I am in.. go :apple: !

BBCWatcher
May 27, 2013, 05:33 AM
...whether Apple forces groups to buy a minimum number of iPhones, restrictions on the use of marketing budgets, and clauses that ensure Apple is always offered no worse subsidies and sales terms than other smartphone makers.
None of these sales practices are anticompetitive legally speaking and in the abstract. Absolute minimum quantity sales commitments are generally OK as long as they're not tied to percentages of a carrier's overall sales volumes, for example. If Apple funds marketing then Apple should have the right to set reasonable rules for how those funds are used -- but Apple cannot dictate how other marketing funds are used (except to prohibit outright disparagement), nor can Apple tie a carrier's marketing funds to a percentage of the carrier's overall marketing budget, for example. "Most favored pricing" contracts are generally OK too as long as the carrier is free to strike identical "most favored" contracts with other equipment manufacturers.

The EU needs to be careful not to confuse a strong negotiator able to secure highly favorable contract terms due to its strong products with an anticompetitive negotiator that is doing something illegal. Generally speaking Apple knows exactly where the line is between aggressive negotiation and illegal anticompetitive behavior. Also, the EU needs to be careful not to protect incumbent carrier cartels. The EU governments granted the carriers wireless spectrum franchises which are limited in supply. There are no comparable barriers to entry among smartphone manufacturers. Apple may have succeeded in shifting profits from carriers to Apple, but to the extent that's happened the shift has only accrued to the benefit of consumers who can choose among a wide variety of Apple and non-Apple smartphones to use on networks that charge much lower rates for voice and data services. In other words, Apple may have helped tame the carrier cartels which then increased the overall market and boosted the fortunes of Apple's competitors (including Samsung and Google) over those same carriers that can no longer charge as much for more open networks. It would be ironic and sad if the EU penalized Apple for what seems to be a pro-consumer accomplishment.

booksacool1
May 27, 2013, 05:50 AM
Apple tried to take some power from telcos... and almost succeeded, unfortunately android gave that power back to those evil companies.. so for me, whatever apple does to weaken telcos, I am in.. go :apple: !

What? Apple was the company which allowed carriers to disable hotspot, 3G facetime and large apps over 3G.

Carriers might not be able to brand iOS but Apple has certainly made concessions.

CaTOAGU
May 27, 2013, 07:13 AM
I'm really not sure I see the problem here. It's not like the operators are helpless children. The only reason Apple manages to negotiate such favourable terms is because the iPhone is so popular. If it was less popular the operators would have a stronger negotiating position.

It's also these operators that, back in the day, would introduce restrictions of their own on handsets. Turning off features they didn't like and installing their own bloatware on top of or instead of the manufactures own O/S.

As far as I'm concerned the operators should be as close to dumb pipes as possible. Of course they have to do compatibility testing to make sure handsets don't cripple their network but that should be as far as they go.

What's happening with Apple is just a redressing of the balance of power away from the operators, they don't like it, I don't blame them but it's how it should be in my opinion.

IGregory
May 27, 2013, 07:19 AM
It seems not a day goes by that APPLE isn't under the microscope somewhere.
An excellent incentive to run the company squeaky-clean. What other company could stand this kind of intense scrutiny? Go :apple:

Right or wrong Apple does stifle competition with its patent and licensing enforcement. When one is perceived as a bully one makes him/itself a target. That's the downside of being at the top of the heap. Arrows generally are aim upward. ;)

jagolden
May 27, 2013, 07:51 AM
EU - shorthand for anti-business, socialist gangsters. Pathetic.

Bubba Satori
May 27, 2013, 07:52 AM
Apple should just buy the EU.

NoNothing
May 27, 2013, 07:55 AM
why wouldn't apple want the iphone 5 on high speed 4g in europe?

As reported on The Verge, Apple won't allow the iPhone to connect to a 4G network until after Apple has tested the phone on the carriers specific network. My guess this complaint is being filed by a carrier that does not offer the iphone, is loosing customers to competitors and like the terms offered by Apple.

sofila
May 27, 2013, 07:57 AM
Apple has nothing to worry about

as long as is clean and clear :D

Frado
May 27, 2013, 08:12 AM
As reported on The Verge, Apple won't allow the iPhone to connect to a 4G network until after Apple has tested the phone on the carriers specific network. My guess this complaint is being filed by a carrier that does not offer the iphone, is loosing customers to competitors and like the terms offered by Apple.

Yes, the picture in the newspost is from Mobistar Belgium, the only provider allowed to have 4G on the iPhone. Other carriers already offer 4G as well(and better coverage) but nobody with an iPhone 5 can connect to that network. (Unless they fiddle with an iPad ipcc file OR jailbreak their iPhone and hack commcenter).

Imo it's good that the EU wants to look into it.. Apple has had enough time to 'test' the other carrier's network(which is better than the Mobistar network). They obviously don't allow it because of their contract with that Mobistar carrier.

Not to mention you have to pay full price (800 EUR 32 gb iphone 5): you have an unlocked phone but you are limited concerning LTE. Apple shouldn't impose these restrictions if you pay full price.

AppleMark
May 27, 2013, 08:15 AM
Apple tried to take some power from telcos... and almost succeeded, unfortunately android gave that power back to those evil companies.. so for me, whatever apple does to weaken telcos, I am in.. go :apple: !

Why are the 'telcos' evil and Apple are not?

I do not understand how you can label one Corporation evil over another, when the ethos of a corporation is to capitalise on anything and everything.

Anyway..., did we not spend last week debating and then being forced to concede that Apple and other corporations can anything they want, whether it is morally reprehensible or otherwise, as long as they do so within the law?

Therefore, if Apple or any other company has breached an EU competition law they should not be above it.

----------

What? Apple was the company which allowed carriers to disable hotspot, 3G facetime and large apps over 3G.

Carriers might not be able to brand iOS but Apple has certainly made concessions.

Exactly.

Why has Apple only allowed O2 in the UK to enable and support visual voicemail?

Smartass
May 27, 2013, 08:39 AM
As reported on The Verge, Apple won't allow the iPhone to connect to a 4G network until after Apple has tested the phone on the carriers specific network. My guess this complaint is being filed by a carrier that does not offer the iphone, is loosing customers to competitors and like the terms offered by Apple.

let's not forget that Apple is advertising iphone 5 as an LTE supported device but if you're not on an "apple friendly" carrier, you cant use LTE.

throttlemeister
May 27, 2013, 08:53 AM
None of these sales practices are anticompetitive legally speaking and in the abstract. Absolute minimum quantity sales commitments are generally OK as long as they're not tied to percentages of a carrier's overall sales volumes, for example. If Apple funds marketing then Apple should have the right to set reasonable rules for how those funds are used -- but Apple cannot dictate how other marketing funds are used (except to prohibit outright disparagement), nor can Apple tie a carrier's marketing funds to a percentage of the carrier's overall marketing budget, for example. "Most favored pricing" contracts are generally OK too as long as the carrier is free to strike identical "most favored" contracts with other equipment manufacturers.

The EU needs to be careful not to confuse a strong negotiator able to secure highly favorable contract terms due to its strong products with an anticompetitive negotiator that is doing something illegal. Generally speaking Apple knows exactly where the line is between aggressive negotiation and illegal anticompetitive behavior. Also, the EU needs to be careful not to protect incumbent carrier cartels. The EU governments granted the carriers wireless spectrum franchises which are limited in supply. There are no comparable barriers to entry among smartphone manufacturers. Apple may have succeeded in shifting profits from carriers to Apple, but to the extent that's happened the shift has only accrued to the benefit of consumers who can choose among a wide variety of Apple and non-Apple smartphones to use on networks that charge much lower rates for voice and data services. In other words, Apple may have helped tame the carrier cartels which then increased the overall market and boosted the fortunes of Apple's competitors (including Samsung and Google) over those same carriers that can no longer charge as much for more open networks. It would be ironic and sad if the EU penalized Apple for what seems to be a pro-consumer accomplishment.

There have been some reports of smaller carriers that were forced to buy minimum quantities of iPhone that were so large for that carrier it essentially forced them to drop any other phones just to be able to get rid of them. At the same time, the market demands those carriers to offer the iPhone, or they will lose too many customers.

If this has indeed been the case, we are no longer talking about strong negotiators, but about intentially disrupting the market and trying to push competitors aside by strong-arming the carriers.

Now, I don't have proof about this, so far it has just been some reports in the press, but I am quite sure these are the types of things the EU wants to know. If it did happen, the EU will probably launch a formal investigation into Apple (which this is not).

Shaun, UK
May 27, 2013, 09:19 AM
What other company could stand this kind of intense scrutiny?

Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc.

They've all been or are being investigated by authorities around the world including the EU.

Whatever the company or the industry sector if you have a dominant market share, the competition authorities have an obligation to make sure you don't abuse that position. In the end all they are trying to do is protect us the consumer.

If they've done nothing wrong then they've nothing to worry about.

rdlink
May 27, 2013, 10:02 AM
Whilst it may be good business to use a position of strength (i.e. carriers can't afford not to carry the iPhone), it's also often not in the consumers' interest to allow companies to exploit this type of advantage to the extent that it can dictate and manipulate the market.

In some ways I like the fact the Apple has turned around the carrier/supplier relationship, I don't have to suffer a carrier's splash screen and bloatware on a carrier-crippled device when I use my iPhone like I always used to have to when carriers called the shots, but when it comes down to trying to gain an unfair advantage that isn't open to the competition then I think the EU is right to step in to ensure the playing field remains level and consumers don't lose out.

While I agree with the underlying point of your post, I believe Apple has done more to benefit the consumer with the iPhone than any phone manufacturer in history. First, the iPhone itself was revolutionary in design, features and build. Second, as you stated the carriers can't pervert the phone for their benefit and the consumers' detriment like they do with other manufacturers. That is huge.

Think back to the Motorola Razr. One of the most popular feature phones of all time. Yet Verizon was allowed to cripple many of it's native features to force the consumer to use their paid services to do things that the phone could have done natively for free. One feature that comes to mind was the ability to synch the phone with your Exchange address book. You could do it for free, except for the fact that Verizon crippled it, and forced you to buy a similar and klugy service from them if you wanted it.

That's what I see as a big problem with Android. It allows the carriers and manufacturers to put crapware on the phone that can't be removed (without rooting) and also allows them to control the OS version.

MacMan1620
May 27, 2013, 10:03 AM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

kevinof
May 27, 2013, 10:12 AM
Utter rubbish. Apple is in Europe for one thing only and that's to make $'s , therefore it has to play by EU rules. Its free to leave if it wants (but I doubt it will).

Having lived and worked in both the U.S. and EU I'll take the EU any day when it comes to looking after the consumer.


Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

Sincci
May 27, 2013, 10:23 AM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

And let's not just stop at EU while we are at it, Apple should stop selling their products outside of the US since they have been treated so unfairly in Australia, China, South Korea, Japan and so on. Yeah, screw the profits on those countries! :rolleyes:

AppleMark
May 27, 2013, 10:28 AM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

What the...

You forgot to add the smiley face to denote that you were joking....? Or maybe you were not..:eek:

People will not rise up for anything anymore... Just look around you. And Apple will never abandon a lucrative Market, hostile or otherwise.

I was thinking of burning down my town hall over the withdrawal of the Mac Pro, but could not gather enough support. :rolleyes:

Viva la revolution!!!!! :)

MacMan1620
May 27, 2013, 11:07 AM
Yeah I guess they didn't see the sarcasm. People on this forum need to really get out more

Dr McKay
May 27, 2013, 11:08 AM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

Yea, how dare the EU investigate potentially anticompetitive tactics and look out for the consumer! /S

Apple should definitely pull out of Europe despite there being way more people there to sell to, just out of spite. You should go to business school.

Frado
May 27, 2013, 11:24 AM
Yeah I guess they didn't see the sarcasm. People on this forum need to really get out more

With all those American patriots you can never be too sure..

samcraig
May 27, 2013, 11:51 AM
I'm sure some anonymous concerned party (competitor) lodged a complaint. If apple requires a commitment to invest in making their popular phone compatible with a certain carrier and the carrier clearly as other options, them what have they done wrong? These same companies benefit from Apple's loyal customers and marketing. Many of the phone companies don't promote the iPhone once the get going. they push any and every other phone.

Or you know - maybe it was one of the carriers who either couldn't negotiate a fair contract and/or got "stuck" being forced to be responsible for X number of units...

Oh - but CLEARLY it has to do with another phone manufacturer - right?

----------

Why are the 'telcos' evil and Apple are not?

I do not understand how you can label one Corporation evil over another, when the ethos of a corporation is to capitalise on anything and everything.

Anyway..., did we not spend last week debating and then being forced to concede that Apple and other corporations can anything they want, whether it is morally reprehensible or otherwise, as long as they do so within the law?

Therefore, if Apple or any other company has breached an EU competition law they should not be above it.

----------



Exactly.

Why has Apple only allowed O2 in the UK to enable and support visual voicemail?

Some people like the champion companies I guess. It makes little sense as all companies want the greatest profits.

Why do people cheer Apple's quarterly reports (if they don't own stock) and how much profit they make while at the same time complaining they are getting ripped off by telcos or cable companies.

Again - makes little sense.

b0fh
May 27, 2013, 11:57 AM
What? Apple was the company which allowed carriers to disable hotspot, 3G facetime and large apps over 3G.

Carriers might not be able to brand iOS but Apple has certainly made concessions.

Enough public pressure have caused the reversal of these concessions by the telcos.

But no crapware from the beginning... that's just heavenly!

abz1981
May 27, 2013, 01:05 PM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

I guess next your going to stop buying French fries and stick to freedom fries instead?

Ironduke
May 27, 2013, 01:51 PM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

do you seriously believe what you just said?

if so LOL violentlty at you:p

DMH3006
May 27, 2013, 02:34 PM
Yes, the picture in the newspost is from Mobistar Belgium, the only provider allowed to have 4G on the iPhone. Other carriers already offer 4G as well(and better coverage) but nobody with an iPhone 5 can connect to that network. (Unless they fiddle with an iPad ipcc file OR jailbreak their iPhone and hack commcenter).

Imo it's good that the EU wants to look into it.. Apple has had enough time to 'test' the other carrier's network(which is better than the Mobistar network). They obviously don't allow it because of their contract with that Mobistar carrier.

Not to mention you have to pay full price (800 EUR 32 gb iphone 5): you have an unlocked phone but you are limited concerning LTE. Apple shouldn't impose these restrictions if you pay full price.

Of course they can't,Apple probably signed exclusivity agreements with those carriers,same as AT&T until the launch of the iPhone 4 Verizon.

I don't think there's anything wrong,you buy an unlocked phone but you know certain features are only on official carriers.

derbyshire2013
May 27, 2013, 02:49 PM
Why are the 'telcos' evil and Apple are not?

I do not understand how you can label one Corporation evil over another, when the ethos of a corporation is to capitalise on anything and everything.

Anyway..., did we not spend last week debating and then being forced to concede that Apple and other corporations can anything they want, whether it is morally reprehensible or otherwise, as long as they do so within the law?

Therefore, if Apple or any other company has breached an EU competition law they should not be above it.

----------



Exactly.

Why has Apple only allowed O2 in the UK to enable and support visual voicemail?

I'd like to point out 4GEE customers can also access Visual Voicemail on iPhone now, and I believe (but may be wrong!) Orange UK customers on a plan of £36 or over can also get it too.

AppleMark
May 27, 2013, 03:19 PM
I'd like to point out 4GEE customers can also access Visual Voicemail on iPhone now, and I believe (but may be wrong!) Orange UK customers on a plan of £36 or over can also get it too.

Thanks for the update. When I bought my 4S (contract free) I switched from O2 to Vodafone as their plan was better for sim only at the time. It was only then I was made aware that only O2 were 'allowed' to support visual voicemail because they were the initial partner.

I had to begrudgingly go back O2, as no visual voicemail was a deal breaker for me.

Smartass
May 27, 2013, 03:24 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong,you buy an unlocked phone but you know certain features are only on official carriers.

Everything IS wrong with that. If you buy an unlocked phone, you should have ALL the features that the phone provides. The end. No bull-****** excuses from Apple like "well we havent tested our phone on your network so no LTE for you". Thats the whole point of the unlocked phones.

DMH3006
May 27, 2013, 03:50 PM
Everything IS wrong with that. If you buy an unlocked phone, you should have ALL the features that the phone provides. The end. No bull-****** excuses from Apple like "well we havent tested our phone on your network so no LTE for you". Thats the whole point of the unlocked phones.

No the point of unlocked phones is to be able to use it on any GSM network,not to have all the features on it,buying unlocked only means you can choose the career,obviously there will be advantages for choosing an official carrier.

It seems in your mind just because its unlocked it should be full featured in every possible network which is not the case.

Smartass
May 27, 2013, 04:18 PM
No the point of unlocked phones is to be able to use it on any GSM network,not to have all the features on it,buying unlocked only means you can choose the career,obviously there will be advantages for choosing an official carrier.

It seems in your mind just because its unlocked it should be full featured in every possible network which is not the case.

wait are you serious or is that just some sarcasm? You honestly think that if you buy an unlocked phone that its ok that you dont have LTE on it because that carrier is not an offical Apple partner? It's like you would buy a car and if you dont go to a certain gas station pump company your car would only go to 100km/h and no more. Seriously? No wonder Apple does these kind of stupid things if people like you think that this is completely normal.

derbyshire2013
May 27, 2013, 04:38 PM
Thanks for the update. When I bought my 4S (contract free) I switched from O2 to Vodafone as their plan was better for sim only at the time. It was only then I was made aware that only O2 were 'allowed' to support visual voicemail because they were the initial partner.

I had to begrudgingly go back O2, as no visual voicemail was a deal breaker for me.

No problem.

It is daft that o2/Orange/EE are the only ones to support it in this day and age (and given the amount of people who have iPhone in the UK) but nothing would surprise me :rolleyes:

blackburn
May 27, 2013, 04:54 PM
Carriers? Screw em'. When you can get most phones unlocked for the same price or even cheaper, why would you buy a phone though a carrier unless you are a corporation with a contract?

They should split the operator and cell phone sales, or at least prevent carriers from screwing up phones and get the updates timely (fortunately that doesn't apply to the iPhone).

The only problem I saw with iPhones through an operator was that it was almost always sold out for the companies and always in stock for the regular consumer.

Sincci
May 27, 2013, 05:44 PM
wait are you serious or is that just some sarcasm? You honestly think that if you buy an unlocked phone that its ok that you dont have LTE on it because that carrier is not an offical Apple partner? It's like you would buy a car and if you dont go to a certain gas station pump company your car would only go to 100km/h and no more. Seriously? No wonder Apple does these kind of stupid things if people like you think that this is completely normal.

Yeah, the "we need to test the networks first before we can enable LTE on them" excuse is just BS. I find it hard to believe that Apple is the only manufacturer who needs to test their phones on all european lte networks separately before they can approve it while every other manufacturer have no issues with those networks (and how can you actually test the performance/coverage properly if you can't even support all the necessary bands to begin with..). Even if there were some issues with the network, it's really not Apple's problem and if the customer still wants to use his/her phone on such network then it's their own problem. And really, if Apple would really care about customer's experience with 2g/3g/lte networks, they wouldn't have released the iPhone on any US operators in the first place :D

Shaun, UK
May 27, 2013, 06:27 PM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

Revolution? LOL. They'd just buy their phones, tablets and computers from somebody else instead. In the end the customer is always king.

Verbatim Cookie
May 27, 2013, 06:28 PM
People will not rise up for anything anymore...
:confused: Arab Spring? And in Europe, most recently, Stockholm.

Daveoc64
May 27, 2013, 07:13 PM
Apple should stop selling in Europe all together. Screw the EU and their ********* tactics. Then you'd see a true European revolution by the people.

Apple's not doing that well here.

Consumers in Europe aren't swayed purely by Apple's marketing - they often look at specs vs. cost. The iPhone is simply more expensive than alternative products, appears to do less and has lost a lot of its "cool" factor

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Why has Apple only allowed O2 in the UK to enable and support visual voicemail?

It's actually the exact opposite.

Apple always used to force carriers to offer Visual Voicemail, but when they started dropping exclusivity agreements, they dropped that requirement.

Three and Vodafone have always stated that it would cost them too much to implement.

Orange/T-Mobile took a similar stance until recently.

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I don't think there's anything wrong,you buy an unlocked phone but you know certain features are only on official carriers.

Why?

That's not the case with any other product on the market?

Where exactly are people supposed to find these things out?

DMH3006
May 27, 2013, 07:14 PM
wait are you serious or is that just some sarcasm? You honestly think that if you buy an unlocked phone that its ok that you dont have LTE on it because that carrier is not an offical Apple partner? It's like you would buy a car and if you dont go to a certain gas station pump company your car would only go to 100km/h and no more. Seriously? No wonder Apple does these kind of stupid things if people like you think that this is completely normal.

If the phone only supports a certain number of LTE bands and the carrier doesn't use those what do you expect Apple to do? create a specific version for each carrier? Its an hardware limitation for most cases,besides if you bought it unlocked im sure you can sign up for PAYG plan on a supported carrier and get LTE,issue solved.

Drop the all is owed because its unlocked,its unlocked but certain features are exclusive to certain carriers. same as FaceTime over cellular not working on AT&T for all users and hotspot functionality.

Daveoc64
May 27, 2013, 07:15 PM
If the phone only supports a certain number of LTE bands and the carrier doesn't use those what do you expect Apple to do? create a specific version for each carrier? Its an hardware limitation for most cases,besides if you bought it unlocked im sure you can sign up for PAYG plan on a supported carrier and get LTE,issue solved.

Nobody is talking about hardware limitations. These are artificially-imposed software limitations.

Drop the all is owed because its unlocked,its unlocked but certain features are exclusive to certain carriers. same as FaceTime over cellular not working on AT&T for all users and hotspot functionality.

Pretty terrible examples - those sorts of features are rarely blocked in Europe.

DMH3006
May 27, 2013, 07:17 PM
Apple's not doing that well here.

Consumers in Europe aren't swayed purely by Apple's marketing - they often look at specs vs. cost. The iPhone is simply more expensive than alternative products, appears to do less and has lost a lot of its "cool" factor

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It's actually the exact opposite.

Apple always used to force carriers to offer Visual Voicemail, but when they started dropping exclusivity agreements, they dropped that requirement.

Three and Vodafone have always stated that it would cost them too much to implement.

Orange/T-Mobile took a similar stance until recently.

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Why?

That's not the case with any other product on the market?

Where exactly are people supposed to find these things out?

How about on the iPhone box where it says LTE is only available on certain carriers? or is too much for people to be informed on what they're buying,dear god you're making a purchase you're supposed to know what you're buying or do most people just look and buy at things without gathering information/comparing with other devices?

Daveoc64
May 27, 2013, 07:19 PM
How about on the iPhone box where it says LTE is only available on certain carriers? or is too much for people to be informed on what they're buying,dear god you're making a purchase you're supposed to know what you're buying or do most people just look and buy at things without gathering information/comparing with other devices?

It does not explain that Apple artificially limits the product so that it will not work in scenarios that the box (and Apple's website) says should work.

Apple is the sole manufacturer in the world that does this.

It really is just indefensible.

DMH3006
May 27, 2013, 07:21 PM
It does not explain that Apple artificially limits the product so that it will not work in scenarios that the box (and Apple's website) says should work.

Apple is the sole manufacturer in the world that does this.

It really is just indefensible.

where did they limit a product where they say it works and it doesn't?

They say it works with GSM carriers,do you not get a signal and HSDPA? they never said LTE worked on any carrier,this a new LTE/Unlocked-gate or something?

On my iphone 5 box it clearly states that LTE may not be compatible or available on the carrier.

Daveoc64
May 27, 2013, 07:23 PM
where did they limit a product where they say it works and it doesn't?

They say it works with GSM carriers,do you not get a signal and HSDPA? they never said LTE worked on any carrier,this a new LTE/Unlocked-gate or something?

They provide a list of specifications, as we've already noted, no other phone ever produced does this, why should consumers be expected to go out of their way to check what Apple does and does not permit?

Why is it ok for someone to use the phone on any GSM or UMTS network without Apple approving it first?

They've decided that we can use the phone on any GSM or UMTS carrier, but not an LTE one. Why? Why is there a double standard? Why should consumers be expected to know this?

Often with this sort of thing, "supported" simply means that you can go into a shop and get help with it, not that the manufacturer designs the product to prevent anything other than that working.

retroneo
May 27, 2013, 07:25 PM
The carriers in question use 1800MHz, and Apple supports LTE using the iPad on these carriers - but not the iPhone.

The iPhone 5 works perfectly using LTE on these carriers when a carrier profile containing the LTE setting is installed, however Apple has only enabled it for the iPad for an unknown reason.

Swift
May 27, 2013, 07:45 PM
This should be front page news instead of some home button part leak, or an analyst taking ********.

You can bet that under the surface, there's a lot of dirty tactics going on, that you as consumer should be aware of.

Indeed. On all sides, I'm quite sure. But Apple has become a piñata.

I can't say much about Europe, because I don't know what overall conditions are. What would they be doing that is unfair to the public? What might create monopolistic behavior? Dunno. Requiring a certain size purchase to acquire the phone? I think that's a business deal. You'll find that it's worked out for the networks. Their iPhone sales were huge, and they still are. Probably, the competition is tighter now, so they'll lose some of the premium. I'll tell you, consumers are better off because Apple was high-handed with the networks. The devices are the kings. The networks are a commodity.

Daveoc64
May 27, 2013, 08:22 PM
Indeed. On all sides, I'm quite sure. But Apple has become a piñata.

I can't say much about Europe, because I don't know what overall conditions are. What would they be doing that is unfair to the public? What might create monopolistic behavior? Dunno. Requiring a certain size purchase to acquire the phone? I think that's a business deal. You'll find that it's worked out for the networks. Their iPhone sales were huge, and they still are. Probably, the competition is tighter now, so they'll lose some of the premium. I'll tell you, consumers are better off because Apple was high-handed with the networks. The devices are the kings. The networks are a commodity.

You're applying traits of the US market to Europe.

It just doesn't work.

Consumers have higher expectations here, prices are lower, carrier policies are more flexible.

Other manufacturers are either more Europe-centric or can just cope better with these different approaches to both business and technology.

Laird Knox
May 27, 2013, 11:02 PM
It seems not a day goes by that APPLE isn't under the microscope somewhere.
An excellent incentive to run the company squeaky-clean. What other company could stand this kind of intense scrutiny? Go :apple:

I work in a heavily regulated industry and what I find humorous is that, for us, things are much more lax in the EU than in the US.

JAT
May 28, 2013, 12:05 AM
Why are the 'telcos' evil and Apple are not?

I do not understand how you can label one Corporation evil over another, when the ethos of a corporation is to capitalise on anything and everything.

Anyway..., did we not spend last week debating and then being forced to concede that Apple and other corporations can anything they want, whether it is morally reprehensible or otherwise, as long as they do so within the law?

Therefore, if Apple or any other company has breached an EU competition law they should not be above it.

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Exactly.

Why has Apple only allowed O2 in the UK to enable and support visual voicemail?
I can tell you are from Europe, even without the note under your name. You obviously are not familiar with the conniving ripoff artists that are USA cellular companies.

Hating Apple must bring such joy to people like you. Glad you have something.

AppleMark
May 28, 2013, 02:35 AM
I can tell you are from Europe, even without the note under your name. You obviously are not familiar with the conniving ripoff artists that are USA cellular companies.

Hating Apple must bring such joy to people like you. Glad you have something.

The original poster made a ridiculous blanket claim, that somehow telecoms companies were evil because they were somehow taking business away from Apple and giving power to 'Android'. You are just as ridiculous if you feel this way.

Hence my question, as to why is one corporation more 'evil' on this basis? All companies will screw everybody for what they can get away with, Apple are no different.

Unlike you (appear to be) and many others, I am not a mindless fanboy and will post accordingly to my point of view, even if this is not favourable to Apple and it's religious followers.

But do I hate Apple? No, but I am amused by your baseless assumption otherwise. LOL'

j_maddison
May 28, 2013, 03:09 AM
Indeed. On all sides, I'm quite sure. But Apple has become a piñata.

I can't say much about Europe, because I don't know what overall conditions are. What would they be doing that is unfair to the public? What might create monopolistic behavior? Dunno. Requiring a certain size purchase to acquire the phone? I think that's a business deal. You'll find that it's worked out for the networks. Their iPhone sales were huge, and they still are. Probably, the competition is tighter now, so they'll lose some of the premium. I'll tell you, consumers are better off because Apple was high-handed with the networks. The devices are the kings. The networks are a commodity.

The main thing to note about the EU is that they are not elected. They actually stole money from the people in Cyprus recently, not the government the actual people by taking it out of their bank accounts.

Just imagine the States with local government and then a totally unelected Federal government ........ That's what the EU is

----------

Why are the 'telcos' evil and Apple are not?

I do not understand how you can label one Corporation evil over another, when the ethos of a corporation is to capitalise on anything and everything.

Anyway..., did we not spend last week debating and then being forced to concede that Apple and other corporations can anything they want, whether it is morally reprehensible or otherwise, as long as they do so within the law?

Therefore, if Apple or any other company has breached an EU competition law they should not be above it.

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Exactly.

Why has Apple only allowed O2 in the UK to enable and support visual voicemail?

I think you'll find all of the carriers are allowed to offer it, they chose not to. EE have just launched it, but are refusing to offer it on T mobile for example.

Visual voice mail requires investment at the network level, Voda, 3, Orange, and T mobile refused to make the investment. Your statement is untrue.

Frado
May 28, 2013, 03:11 AM
The main thing to note about the EU is that they are not elected. They actually stole money from the people in Cyprus recently, not the government the actual people by taking it out of their bank accounts.

Just imagine the States with local government and then a totally unelected Federal government ........ That's what the EU is

You should tell the whole story.. Savings accounts in Cyprus sometimes got up to 15% profit, vs 1-2% in the rest of all the EU countries. People could have expected this, it was only a matter of time before the bubble bursted
So you think it would have been better if they cut off Cyprus, going out of the EU and go back to their original currency? THEN you would actually see money being taken from the local people.

Ah well, I don't expect Americans to understand Europe. It's too different. But I know I'll take the EU over USA any time, consumer is better protected and you can fall back on something when you get sick/.... Downside ofcourse being that you will always have abuse of that system.

Anyways, reply to few posts above me: the iPhone in Europe is an international model with a few LTE bands, it's not a hardware limitation, it's just limited by Apple because they won't sign those carrier profiles.

And yes, that 'testing network' story is BS, the official carrier here has worse LTE coverage and they are supported. It's all about contracts and moneyz :)

j_maddison
May 28, 2013, 03:16 AM
You should tell the whole story.. Savings accounts in Cyprus sometimes got up to 15% profit, vs 1-2% in the rest of all the EU countries. People could have expected this, it was only a matter of time before the bubble bursted
So you think it would have been better if they cut off Cyprus, going out of the EU and go back to their original currency? THEN you would actually see money being taken from the local people.

Ah well, I don't expect Americans to understand Europe. It's too different. But I know I'll take the EU over USA any time, consumer is better protected and you can fall back on something when you get sick/.... Downside ofcourse being that you will always have abuse of that system.

Anyways, reply to few posts above me: the iPhone in Europe is an international model with a few LTE bands, it's not a hardware limitation, it's just limited by Apple because they won't sign those carrier profiles.

And yes, that 'testing network' story is BS, the official carrier here has worse LTE coverage and they are supported. It's all about contracts and moneyz :)


It isn't for me to question what a country does in their own state. They're free to give as much interest as they like, the point is that it's not democratic to take money from people if they haven't voted for you.

While the alternative might have been worse, it should have been the choice of the Cypriot people, not a choice that was taken out of their hands.

Oletros
May 28, 2013, 03:18 AM
Of course they can't,Apple probably signed exclusivity agreements with those carriers,same as AT&T until the launch of the iPhone 4 Verizon.

No, it has nothing to do with exclusive agreements. By the way, locking smartphone to just some carriers with unlocked phones is not legal in Europe

Frado
May 28, 2013, 03:22 AM
It isn't for me to question what a country does in their own state. They're free to give as much interest as they like, the point is that it's not democratic to take money from people if they haven't voted for you.

While the alternative might have been worse, it should have been the choice of the Cypriot people, not a choice that was taken out of their hands.

As far as I know they imposed a tax for accounts with + 100 .000 euro in the accounts ,targeting people who put their money in Cyprus but don't actually live there.

I think it's normal that the EU wants to see some change when they give a 10 billion bailout.
The government ( elected) had a choice to fix the crisis, if they decided to accept the EU bailout they also accepted the demands from the EU.

Oletros
May 28, 2013, 03:24 AM
If the phone only supports a certain number of LTE bands and the carrier doesn't use those what do you expect Apple to do? create a specific version for each carrier? Its an hardware limitation for most cases,besides if you bought it unlocked im sure you can sign up for PAYG plan on a supported carrier and get LTE,issue solved.

It has nothing to do with not supported bands.

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where did they limit a product where they say it works and it doesn't?

They say it works with GSM carriers,do you not get a signal and HSDPA? they never said LTE worked on any carrier,this a new LTE/Unlocked-gate or something?

On my iphone 5 box it clearly states that LTE may not be compatible or available on the carrier.

LTE is compatible and available and the iPhone won't conenct.

Smartass
May 28, 2013, 03:26 AM
If the phone only supports a certain number of LTE bands and the carrier doesn't use those what do you expect Apple to do? create a specific version for each carrier? Its an hardware limitation for most cases
Hardware limitation? It's not a hardware limitation, it's just Apple being Apple and screwing everybody else except for those few operators with whom they had a deal before the launch and nothing more.


besides if you bought it unlocked im sure you can sign up for PAYG plan on a supported carrier and get LTE,issue solved.

And thats where the main problem lays - people are forced to go to the "apple-friendly" carrier just because they bought a phone that was marketed as an LTE device but in reality it really isnt so.



Drop the all is owed because its unlocked,its unlocked but certain features are exclusive to certain carriers. same as FaceTime over cellular not working on AT&T for all users and hotspot functionality.
I wouldnt say if Facetime or any other crappy and useless feature would be an exclusive to a carrier - let them have it. But LTE, which is the new standard for high speed data transfer being exclusive only to certain carriers just because Apple can afford to "forget" adding one more LTE band (even thought we all know that they can turn it on any time via software) to the phone? Well in this age there really isnt any good excuse for this other than having exclusive deals with certain carriers and limiting the competition.
Just imagine how pissed people would be when they bought iPhone 3G and only then they would realize that it doesnt support their network because Apple doesnt have a deal with their operator. Fortunately for Apple 90% of people still dont know anything about LTE and what it does.

Mackan
May 28, 2013, 03:55 AM
Indeed. On all sides, I'm quite sure. But Apple has become a piñata.

I can't say much about Europe, because I don't know what overall conditions are. What would they be doing that is unfair to the public? What might create monopolistic behavior? Dunno. Requiring a certain size purchase to acquire the phone? I think that's a business deal. You'll find that it's worked out for the networks. Their iPhone sales were huge, and they still are. Probably, the competition is tighter now, so they'll lose some of the premium. I'll tell you, consumers are better off because Apple was high-handed with the networks. The devices are the kings. The networks are a commodity.

Everyone is striving for control, that benefits their business. So shifting control from a company to another company may just give the same end result. I am not sure the consumer will ever benefit here... All companies just want our money, nothing more.

For example, now they carriers need to enter an agreement with Apple before LTE can be enabled on the iPhone for that carrier's network.

I thought that LTE produced cell phones are compatible with LTE networks. I mean, that's how they are tested according to specification, or how could they otherwise be approved for production?

But now Apple suddenly controls this, via a software update. What is the reason for this?

Actually, I will quote another person below here:

This i've noticed that also, you cannot use LTE with my operator since apple didnt "approve it" (because they're not selling iphones). How dumb is that, year 2013 and you need an "apple approved operator" so you can have LTE on your phone?:rolleyes:

j_maddison
May 28, 2013, 04:11 AM
As far as I know they imposed a tax for accounts with + 100 .000 euro in the accounts ,targeting people who put their money in Cyprus but don't actually live there.

I think it's normal that the EU wants to see some change when they give a 10 billion bailout.
The government ( elected) had a choice to fix the crisis, if they decided to accept the EU bailout they also accepted the demands from the EU.

I did give a one sided view yes, but many Cypriot citizens were caught up in the cross fire. While it could be argued that the ends justified the means, the way it was done and by an unelected body didn't give me much faith in the system. It set a dangerous precedent.

AppleMark
May 28, 2013, 04:39 AM
I think you'll find all of the carriers are allowed to offer it, they chose not to. EE have just launched it, but are refusing to offer it on T mobile for example.

Visual voice mail requires investment at the network level, Voda, 3, Orange, and T mobile refused to make the investment. Your statement is untrue.

I offered a question, not a statement.

j_maddison
May 28, 2013, 05:11 AM
I offered a question, not a statement.

You offered a question that contained a statement ;) Nice try

AppleMark
May 28, 2013, 05:32 AM
You offered a question that contained a statement ;) Nice try

I offered a question, in reply to agreeing to a point by another poster. My question was answered and then addressed by myself in post 45, in relation to my own experience. Nice try too ;)

Oletros
May 28, 2013, 05:44 AM
Typical of the EU to carry out more meaningless & costly tasks - gotta keep the suits busy somehow!

Pathetic.

Why are meaningless and how are costly?

Smartass
May 28, 2013, 06:11 AM
Typical of the EU to carry out more meaningless & costly tasks - gotta keep the suits busy somehow!

Pathetic.

oh. my. god.

CeSinge
May 28, 2013, 06:27 AM
This i've noticed that also, you cannot use LTE with my operator since apple didnt "approve it" (because they're not selling iphones). How dumb is that, year 2013 and you need an "apple approved operator" so you can have LTE on your phone?:rolleyes:

In this sense, you are right: one reason Apple may restrict LTE/4G is to protect the local carriers with whom they have long term contracts. Here in Belgium, only one carrier has an embryo of LTE (there is not much real competition here, so they're not in a hurry to invest). But the sole carrier that distributes iPhones has no LTE yet, so blocking it disallows iPhone customers the benefit of choosing the other carrier that supports LTE. They can, of course, but not with the benefit of 4G.

The Commission is right to (finally) look into the musky business of iPhone distribution over here: many stores just a few weeks ago received enough iPhone 5 as to advertise them as in store/in stock... Why? iPhone stocks are controlled by the single carrier that also does their distribution. Not a honest business practice.

j_maddison
May 28, 2013, 07:32 AM
I offered a question, in reply to agreeing to a point by another poster. My question was answered and then addressed by myself in post 45, in relation to my own experience. Nice try too ;)

Lol

princigalli
May 28, 2013, 02:29 PM
It's a bit late. Apple gave new life to the horrible German Deutsche Telekom, making them an expensive monopoly back in the days of the first Iphone. I unfortunately bought one and was ripped off very badly.

Macyourdayy
May 28, 2013, 04:57 PM
Oh, sure! Because Apple NEVER does anything wrong to customers or clients. Any complain must be the product of a competitor's envy,and nothing else. Always.

[/s] :rolleyes:

In this case, I expect Someone's budget for judges and other officials has been greatly increased because, you know, that's innovation. Why would you put technologies like 4G in a device and then allow people to use them? I'm surprised they let some customers actually, you know, take photos or make calls.
Don't forget that 4G/LTE is a standard, and like all standards, everyone seems to have one.

Macyourdayy
May 28, 2013, 05:15 PM
Apple has nothing to worry about

as long as is clean and clear :D

Sure. Nobody has ever been wrongly accused or convicted with manufactured "evidence", or were you being sarcastic? (I have no idea or care what the little green face you used as a full stop means)

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Microsoft, Google, Amazon, etc.

They've all been or are being investigated by authorities around the world including the EU.

Whatever the company or the industry sector if you have a dominant market share, the competition authorities have an obligation to make sure you don't abuse that position. In the end all they are trying to do is protect us the consumer.

If they've done nothing wrong then they've nothing to worry about.

Hang on a bit. Isn't Apple doomed and completely crushed by android? Haven't you seen the headlines? Now I'm really confused.

No, really.

Oletros
May 29, 2013, 02:03 AM
In this case, I expect Someone's budget for judges and other officials has been greatly increased because, you know, that's innovation. Why would you put technologies like 4G in a device and then allow people to use them? I'm surprised they let some customers actually, you know, take photos or make calls.
Don't forget that 4G/LTE is a standard, and like all standards, everyone seems to have one.

You missed the sarcasm tag