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MacRumors
May 31, 2013, 04:05 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/31/apple-ends-os-x-10-8-4-beta-testing-program-suggesting-imminent-release/)


Apple may be planning to release the final version of OS X 10.8.4 in the near future, as it today sent out notices to AppleSeed members announcing the closure of the OS X 10.8.4 software update project.

As noted (http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/05/31/os-x-1084-release-may-be-imminent-as-software-update-seed-project-closes) by AppleInsider, participants received a notification stating that weekend infrastructure maintenance requires the company to close existing products.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/05/1084closed.jpg
The notice thanks AppleSeed members for participating and notes that an email will be sent out when the final version of the software is publicly available. Apple first released (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/04/01/apple-issues-first-beta-of-os-x-10-8-4-to-appleseed-members/) the OS X 10.8.4 beta on April 1st and released eight different builds, ending on build 12E55 (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/24/os-x-10-8-4-build-12e55-seeded-to-developers/). Throughout the beta, Apple asked users to focus on Wi-Fi, Graphics Drivers, and Safari.

Article Link: Apple Ends OS X 10.8.4 Beta Testing Program, Suggesting Imminent Release (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/05/31/apple-ends-os-x-10-8-4-beta-testing-program-suggesting-imminent-release/)



Peace
May 31, 2013, 04:10 PM
That's kind of weird considering the dev portal has no mention of this type of activity. Could just be AppleSeed I suppose.

Prof.
May 31, 2013, 04:14 PM
Tuesday perhaps?

MacsRgr8
May 31, 2013, 04:16 PM
I can't remember Apple ending a Beta Testing Program before..?

Usually the last seed of a beta... well just is the last seed, which becomes the GM = Public.

macs4nw
May 31, 2013, 04:20 PM
So when can we expect the GM? And does this mean there could still be a 10.8.5 before OS X 10.9 hits the App Store?

Peace
May 31, 2013, 04:22 PM
So when can we expect the GM? And does this mean there could still be a 10.8.5 before OS X 10.9 hits the App Store?

10.9 won't come out until September sometime so there very well could be a 10.8.5

It could also be Apple is redoing the AppleSeed site in preparation for 10.9 beta.

ghostface147
May 31, 2013, 04:33 PM
Ugh, they still have some small graphic issues to address. Also remember that AppleSeed is different than developer testing...

bedifferent
May 31, 2013, 04:43 PM
Um, this isn't good news. I still have open and acknowledged issues with WiFi using both 2.4 and 5 GHz spectrums, com.apple.launchd issues (sleepservices, memory, iCloud stability), and others. All effecting my Mac Pro, Mac Mini, MacBook Air (all current gen) and a 2011 27" iMac. Let's not even get into OpenGL Core support.

Apple, get on the ball with OS X.

b.inazawa-fan
May 31, 2013, 04:46 PM
I hope they fixed this.

http://i.imgur.com/0PhDFbx.png

Ddyracer
May 31, 2013, 06:20 PM
10.9 won't come out until September sometime so there very well could be a 10.8.5

It could also be Apple is redoing the AppleSeed site in preparation for 10.9 beta.

Uh, Sept? Where the hell did you get that from?

Peace
May 31, 2013, 06:23 PM
Uh, Sept? Where the hell did you get that from?

The same place everybody else gets their information.

Opinonville.

;)

Parasprite
May 31, 2013, 06:47 PM
I hope they fixed this.

Image (http://i.imgur.com/0PhDFbx.png)

That reminds me of when I tried to install Kubuntu a few years back...oh the flashbacks.

Ddyracer
May 31, 2013, 07:06 PM
The same place everybody else gets their information.

Opionville.

;)

Ah i see brother.

cmChimera
May 31, 2013, 08:38 PM
Ah i see brother.

But it's likely correct. We won't see a beta until June. I doubt it will release in July like the past two.

Bear
May 31, 2013, 08:54 PM
But it's likely correct. We won't see a beta until June. I doubt it will release in July like the past two.Why not? Weren't both Lions made available for beta at WWDC and shipped in July?

cmChimera
May 31, 2013, 08:55 PM
Why not? Weren't both Lions made available for beta at WWDC and shipped in July?

No. Lion and Mountain Lion were available in February.

bedifferent
May 31, 2013, 08:59 PM
Why not? Weren't both Lions made available for beta at WWDC and shipped in July?

and look what happened :p

Ddyracer
May 31, 2013, 09:19 PM
But it's likely correct. We won't see a beta until June. I doubt it will release in July like the past two.

For 10.9?

MrNomNoms
May 31, 2013, 09:34 PM
But it's likely correct. We won't see a beta until June. I doubt it will release in July like the past two.

But then again didn't they also state that they were switching to a yearly schedule or when they mean by yearly they're pointing to yearly schedule give or take a few months? with the shorter release schedules does that mean fewer major changes and thus less testing required? will be interesting to see what WWDC brings given that the sessions will be up online to watch whilst the conference is going rather than having to wait for weeks after the finish of it.

Baklava
May 31, 2013, 09:36 PM
10.9 won't come out until September sometime so there very well could be a 10.8.5
My guess for the release date is during WWDC.

katewes
May 31, 2013, 09:41 PM
Aside from the irritatingly slow shutdown, Mountain Lion 10.8.3 isn't giving me any problems - probably because I use fairly standard apps and hardware setup.

The only thing that would now make me upgrade to 8.4 is if Apple reduces shutdown time, otherwise, I'll just wait till they tidy everything up in the last update, perhaps 10.8.5

I feel aggrieved that, with new OS's coming out every year, that the previous OS never get to the level of rock solid performance that comes with a few iterations, such as 10.6.8 and 10.5.8 and 10.4.11

And all this updating of new OS's, FOR WHAT, APPLE!!!! If you look at the survey below,

http://www.macworld.com/article/2040308/survey-the-os-x-features-you-love-the-most-and-those-you-dont-love-at-all-.html

the poll shows that most people, including myself, hardly use any of the stupid new features. Yet, the price I've had to pay for these new OS's are upgrades to several software. The one that gets me irritated the most is that when ML came out, it wrecked my 4.10 VMWare setup, so I upgraded to VMWare 5.0, but the old VM data file didn't work under the 5.0 upgrade, so I had to reinstall the entire Microsoft Windows environment. And many of the old software I used in the XP environment weren't available, so I had to buy Windows 7. All this nonsense because Apple brought out Mountain Lion with silly main features that most people don't use.

Even with Messenger, why can't Apple just bring out an App? Why must they integrate it with the OS, so we are forced to upgrade? e.g. Skype messaging works great as an App that works cross-platform etc.

Furthermore, with these useless upgrades, my older iMac can't use Mountain Lion.

And Apple links its Mail program to the OS, so I cannot upgrade Mail in my older Macs (two of them). Why can't Apple create a standalone Mail app that is sold in the App Store, like Aperture or Final Cut Pro? I hardly use any of the ML-introduced features. I need to keep my IMAP in a very basic configuration so it doesn't go crazy. IMAP can be very temperamental, so I don't use these fancy smart boxes etc. Of course we know why - by integrating Mail into the OS, it forces us to buy new hardware when our old hardware can't run the latest OS with totally useless features that most people don't use.

You and I know we are all complicit in a game where Apple does anything to force us to buy new hardware more frequently than we really need. It's a mugs game. But, sad to say, I'm not ready to shift to Windows 8 yet. Apple is the lesser of two evils.

fpsBeaTt
May 31, 2013, 10:30 PM
Um, this isn't good news. I still have open and acknowledged issues with WiFi using both 2.4 and 5 GHz spectrums, com.apple.launchd issues (sleepservices, memory, iCloud stability), and others. All effecting my Mac Pro, Mac Mini, MacBook Air (all current gen) and a 2011 27" iMac. Let's not even get into OpenGL Core support.

Apple, get on the ball with OS X.

I agree with you, bar one item: affecting* ;)

lunarworks
May 31, 2013, 10:33 PM
I'm guessing they've wrapped things up so they can quietly add-in whatever support they need for new hardware in time for WWDC.

So many hardware releases have been leaked through OS betas.

Aaron from KY
May 31, 2013, 10:36 PM
Aside from the irritatingly slow shutdown, Mountain Lion 10.8.3 isn't giving me any problems - probably because I use fairly standard apps and hardware setup.

The only thing that would now make me upgrade to 8.4 is if Apple reduces shutdown time, otherwise, I'll just wait till they tidy everything up in the last update, perhaps 10.8.5

I feel aggrieved that, with new OS's coming out every year, that the previous OS never get to the level of rock solid performance that comes with a few iterations, such as 10.6.8 and 10.5.8 and 10.4.11

And all this updating of new OS's, FOR WHAT, APPLE!!!! If you look at the survey below,

http://www.macworld.com/article/2040308/survey-the-os-x-features-you-love-the-most-and-those-you-dont-love-at-all-.html

the poll shows that most people, including myself, hardly use any of the stupid new features. Yet, the price I've had to pay for these new OS's are upgrades to several software. The one that gets me irritated the most is that when ML came out, it wrecked my 4.10 VMWare setup, so I upgraded to VMWare 5.0, but the old VM data file didn't work under the 5.0 upgrade, so I had to reinstall the entire Microsoft Windows environment. And many of the old software I used in the XP environment weren't available, so I had to buy Windows 7. All this nonsense because Apple brought out Mountain Lion with silly main features that most people don't use.

Even with Messenger, why can't Apple just bring out an App? Why must they integrate it with the OS, so we are forced to upgrade? e.g. Skype messaging works great as an App that works cross-platform etc.

Furthermore, with these useless upgrades, my older iMac can't use Mountain Lion.

And Apple links its Mail program to the OS, so I cannot upgrade Mail in my older Macs (two of them). Why can't Apple create a standalone Mail app that is sold in the App Store, like Aperture or Final Cut Pro? I hardly use any of the ML-introduced features. I need to keep my IMAP in a very basic configuration so it doesn't go crazy. IMAP can be very temperamental, so I don't use these fancy smart boxes etc. Of course we know why - by integrating Mail into the OS, it forces us to buy new hardware when our old hardware can't run the latest OS with totally useless features that most people don't use.

You and I know we are all complicit in a game where Apple does anything to force us to buy new hardware more frequently than we really need. It's a mugs game. But, sad to say, I'm not ready to shift to Windows 8 yet. Apple is the lesser of two evils.
I'm just curious, why did you even upgrade? If it was working in an older version and a newer version broke compatibility, why didn't you just downgrade? Or are there things in the newer OSes that you do need?

Moshe1010
May 31, 2013, 10:42 PM
I think that there is a better chance for a world peace then people stop complaining about some unknown and weird bugs that I've never seen in my system. Do we have the same operating system? or you just like to complain all day?

davidg4781
Jun 1, 2013, 12:53 AM
Can anyone sign up to be a beta tester?

If I only have one MacBook and mainly use it for somewhat basic stuff, would I want to be a beta tester? What with the risks involved and such.

chris.k
Jun 1, 2013, 02:41 AM
Can anyone sign up to be a beta tester?

If I only have one MacBook and mainly use it for somewhat basic stuff, would I want to be a beta tester? What with the risks involved and such.

Yes - You can become a registered Apple developer, and you get all the new beta spins as they become available.

Just sign up at the MacDev Centre. ( developer.apple.com )

-CK.

AppleMark
Jun 1, 2013, 02:56 AM
I had better purchase and upgrade to ML fast, before they discontinue and force me to purchase and 'Alpha test' the finished product. LOL!

milo
Jun 1, 2013, 07:41 AM
I would wait on doing this update, there are definitely some new bugs introduced that they haven't fixed, especially some problems with video drivers. Let other people be the guinea pigs first.

I can't remember Apple ending a Beta Testing Program before..?

They send out this email every time, but most other times it goes out after they have released the new version to the public. I don't know why they closed the seed before release this time around.

Uh, Sept? Where the hell did you get that from?

It's a guess at this point, with the first beta released at WWDC, a few months of testing are needed. I'd say september would be the earliest, and really it should be tested more and released later than that, but who knows how radical an update it is. And there definitely should be 10.8.5 if not more based on past releases.


But then again didn't they also state that they were switching to a yearly schedule or when they mean by yearly they're pointing to yearly schedule give or take a few months?

They announced that, but this year there's no way they can stick to it. Not only do they need months of testing, they need to let developers have the OS that long in order to have their apps compatible with the new version. Releasing without a long enough beta period would be a nightmare.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 1, 2013, 08:07 AM
So when can we expect the GM? And does this mean there could still be a 10.8.5 before OS X 10.9 hits the App Store?
Probably next week. And I would bet that Mac OS 10.8 hits 10.8.5, like Lion before it.

bedifferent
Jun 1, 2013, 08:51 AM
I agree with you, bar one item: affecting* ;)

lol good catch :p

ValSalva
Jun 1, 2013, 09:03 AM
Probably next week. And I would bet that Mac OS 10.8 hits 10.8.5, like Lion before it.

GM next week? Without any betas? There might not even be a beta next week, just an announcement and a presentation. Apple could be way behind with 10.9 if they had to work on iOS 7 more extensively at the expense of 10.9 development.

chrfr
Jun 1, 2013, 09:36 AM
GM next week? Without any betas?
I read that as the suggestion that 10.8.4 will go to release next week. There's obviously no chance that 10.9 will.

koen
Jun 1, 2013, 10:54 AM
I hope they fixed this.

Did you notify them?

katewes
Jun 1, 2013, 11:04 AM
I'm just curious, why did you even upgrade? If it was working in an older version and a newer version broke compatibility, why didn't you just downgrade? Or are there things in the newer OSes that you do need?

I didn't upgrade. I bought two new MacBooks, and these came with Mountain Lion.

On another MacBook - I have quite a few - I did upgrade to Lion, solely for iCloud's synching of Calendar and Address Book data. And also full disk FileVault 2 encryption. That's really all I need from Lion and Mountain Lion.

I am not implying that just because I don't use something means no one else does. No. I'm pointing to poll results which indicate that I'm not alone in hardly using any of Mountain Lion's new functional features.

benwiggy
Jun 1, 2013, 11:48 AM
There are still plenty of bugs in Mountain Lion. Whether "the problem I happen to have on my computer right now" is one of them, requires reporting and testing.

I would hope that there's a 10.8.5, at the very least. No doubt 10.9 will raise the entry bar again, disallowing older hardware from upgrading.

Apple used to offer a free entry to their developer program. It used to be the only way to get Xcode. I think that's now gone. But anyone who did sign on with that can still report bugs to the Apple bug reporter.

I have submitted many bugs since Lion, some of which have been fixed. Some have been replied to; others have had nothing added to them since submission; a few have had the infuriating "works as designed" stamp.

Riemann Zeta
Jun 1, 2013, 12:17 PM
I read that as the suggestion that 10.8.4 will go to release next week. There's obviously no chance that 10.9 will.
This. I agree that there is no chance that Mac OS 10.9 will just suddenly be released next week. They'll probably introduce the first beta (DP1), however.

bedifferent
Jun 1, 2013, 01:35 PM
I feel aggrieved that, with new OS's coming out every year, that the previous OS never get to the level of rock solid performance that comes with a few iterations, such as 10.6.8 and 10.5.8 and 10.4.11

And all this updating of new OS's, FOR WHAT, APPLE!!!! If you look at the survey below,

http://www.macworld.com/article/2040308/survey-the-os-x-features-you-love-the-most-and-those-you-dont-love-at-all-.html

the poll shows that most people, including myself, hardly use any of the stupid new features.

Well stated; excellent points. I sincerely hope WWDC is a return to power systems and pro-apps, iLife, iWork and 10.9 proving to be a shift back to stability, quality, efficiency, improved Finder and graphics support and iOS integration for those who use it for work (i.e. document syncing, opening access/less sandboxing in iOS 7). Keeping my fingers crossed.

phoenixsan
Jun 1, 2013, 02:23 PM
many of the comments posted here. Would be better a 18-24 months upgrade path, with OS fully tested and bugs under control. It is debatable about the new features and use of them....

But anyways, I understand a upgrade can be disruptive. But not a living Hell in Earth....

Stridder44
Jun 1, 2013, 04:17 PM
Um, this isn't good news. I still have open and acknowledged issues with WiFi using both 2.4 and 5 GHz spectrums, com.apple.launchd issues (sleepservices, memory, iCloud stability), and others. All effecting my Mac Pro, Mac Mini, MacBook Air (all current gen) and a 2011 27" iMac. Let's not even get into OpenGL Core support.

Apple, get on the ball with OS X.


I honestly can't remember a time when there weren't wifi issues with OS X.

doctor-don
Jun 1, 2013, 04:22 PM
The same place everybody else gets their information.

Opinonville.

;)

Is that where Opie lives?

––––––

Another problem I find is the ordering of my Screen Shots. They are NOT chronological because they are sorted according to the hour numerals. Changing the time to 24-hour time does not affect the Screen Shots.

50548
Jun 1, 2013, 05:24 PM
I feel aggrieved that, with new OS's coming out every year, that the previous OS never get to the level of rock solid performance that comes with a few iterations, such as 10.6.8 and 10.5.8 and 10.4.11



I am probably one of the persons most virulently opposed to the iOSification of OS X, as could be seen in many of my previous posts. However, your statement above is a little bit nonsensical, since all iterations mentioned above were the LAST iterations of SL, Lion and Tiger respectively.

Therefore, your expectations should be equally met when the LAST iteration of ML is released - there is no point in criticizing 10.8.3 on the basis of your argument above.

tywebb13
Jun 1, 2013, 11:35 PM
I am probably one of the persons most virulently opposed to the iOSification of OS X

But remember that airplay mirroring first became available on the iPad 2. Now it's part of OS X. That is a good example of iosification of OS X. Their hardware based version of airplay mirroring on the mac is far superior to software versions (although sometimes I still use airparrot and lion - so there is still a place for software based airplay mirroring).

sascha h-k
Jun 2, 2013, 12:36 AM
until now (june 2nd)) no such mail arrived.

usually i get all seed mails ...

Walter White
Jun 2, 2013, 12:57 AM
I am probably one of the persons most virulently opposed to the iOSification of OS X, as could be seen in many of my previous posts.

Not something a thinking human being that is no stranger to logic and common sense would say.

weckart
Jun 2, 2013, 01:14 AM
I honestly can't remember a time when there weren't wifi issues with OS X.

I can. Tiger was pretty much solid for virtually everyone. The problems with drop outs came with Leopard - especially after 10.5.2.

Walter White
Jun 2, 2013, 01:36 AM
I can. Tiger was pretty much solid for virtually everyone. The problems with drop outs came with Leopard - especially after 10.5.2.

I had wifi issues on Tiger. Everyone i know had. It's wifi.

Serban
Jun 2, 2013, 02:20 AM
they already told us that 10.8.4 will have better graphic drivers...so let hope so because the gap between windows performance and macos is kind of big, maybe with this reduces this gap

50548
Jun 2, 2013, 03:52 AM
Not something a thinking human being that is no stranger to logic and common sense would say.

I just don't believe that Forstall/Federighi-driven paradigm - integration where necessary? Yes. Merging/presumption that both deserve the same treatment? No.

imacken
Jun 2, 2013, 07:14 AM
And all this updating of new OS's, FOR WHAT, APPLE!!!! If you look at the survey below,
http://www.macworld.com/article/2040308/survey-the-os-x-features-you-love-the-most-and-those-you-dont-love-at-all-.html
the poll shows that most people, including myself, hardly use any of the stupid new features.
Why is it, that when people don't use something, they call it 'stupid' or other such terms? Very weird. It's almost as if they don't consider that there are many people who have a different opinion.
Why don't non-users just say, 'I don't like it, so I won't use it'? That is their choice. No need for mindless comments like 'stupid new features'.
I actually find the usage figures in that survey for the most useful features- IMHO - very encouraging.
75% use Messaging, 82% Notification Center and 67% Reminders.
What I will say is that most of the new features only come into their own if you have iOS devices synced to your Mac.

Steve.P.JobsFan
Jun 2, 2013, 09:04 AM
I'm guessing they've wrapped things up so they can quietly add-in whatever support they need for new hardware in time for WWDC.

So many hardware releases have been leaked through OS betas.

That makes sense to me.

ValSalva
Jun 2, 2013, 09:47 AM
I just don't believe that Forstall/Federighi-driven paradigm - integration where necessary? Yes. Merging/presumption that both deserve the same treatment? No.

I feel similarly. Changing Address Book to "Contacts" and iChat to "Messages" and maybe slightly tweaking them is fine. But this sandboxing app-centric model for the Mac is terrible.

SeattleMoose
Jun 2, 2013, 10:26 AM
I hope it has tighter integration with social media and forced cloud backups of ALL your personal data........(sarcasm off).

bayxsonic
Jun 2, 2013, 11:26 AM
most people, including myself, hardly use any of the stupid new features. Yet, the price I've had to pay for these new OS's are upgrades to several software.

You just contradicted yourself. Do you even read what you write? The upgrades to several software ARE the new features the new OS brings. Stop being so stubborn.

50548
Jun 2, 2013, 12:19 PM
I hope it has tighter integration with social media and forced cloud backups of ALL your personal data........(sarcasm off).

The sad part is: this will probably take place, worry not.

Krazy Bill
Jun 2, 2013, 01:25 PM
Why don't non-users just say, 'I don't like it, so I won't use it'? That is their choice. No need for mindless comments like 'stupid new features'.It's a little bit more complicated than simply "ignoring" a stupid feature and applauding the minority of people that do use it. Apple's resources are limited and they have internal deadlines. That means working on useless eye-candy and silly-assed features for a minority of users only detracts the coders from working on more important things most all of us could actually use.

grahamperrin
Jun 2, 2013, 02:16 PM
I'm guessing they've wrapped things up so they can quietly add-in whatever support they need for new hardware

More likely: Apple wrapped things up for the reasons given in Apple's notice.

milo
Jun 2, 2013, 03:25 PM
Apple used to offer a free entry to their developer program. It used to be the only way to get Xcode.

They still have it. It doesn't include betas of OSX though, and it has always been that way.

bedifferent
Jun 3, 2013, 12:43 AM
It's a little bit more complicated than simply "ignoring" a stupid feature and applauding the minority of people that do use it. Apple's resources are limited and they have internal deadlines. That means working on useless eye-candy and silly-assed features for a minority of users only detracts the coders from working on more important things most all of us could actually use.

Exactly. People forget or never knew that Apple keeps a small team of iOS/OS X engineers and often moves them between departments. OS X engineers are often pulled into iOS development, resulting in OS X delays such as Leopard. However, Leopard's delays were forgiven as the iPhone launch was paramount to Apple's future in mobile computing. Many of us gave it a pass believing it a one time hiccup.

With Apple's monetary resources, it's time they hired more engineers and ended the "Jobsonian" need to keep small, tight knit interchangeable groups. The company has grown rapidly, requiring more in house engineers and designers. It's been apparent since 10.6 that OS X is suffering from a lack of engineering and focus.

katewes
Jun 3, 2013, 03:20 AM
I am probably one of the persons most virulently opposed to the iOSification of OS X, as could be seen in many of my previous posts. However, your statement above is a little bit nonsensical, since all iterations mentioned above were the LAST iterations of SL, Lion and Tiger respectively.

Therefore, your expectations should be equally met when the LAST iteration of ML is released - there is no point in criticizing 10.8.3 on the basis of your argument above.

What I meant was, with a 1.5-2 year release cycle, Apple could put out several point updates. I assume: the more point updates, the more refined the OS, the more bugs taken out. It's a rudimentary assumption, but fairly logical. It's possibly a reason why people rave about Snow Leopard being so rock solid, when, in fact, at launch day, SL was a dog.

So, my reference to the last point update of those earlier OS versions was to indicate the larger number of point updates they had, in contrast to Lion which only had 5.

----------

You just contradicted yourself. Do you even read what you write? The upgrades to several software ARE the new features the new OS brings. Stop being so stubborn.

I type fast, but thanks for reading my posts so often that you're able to notice a trend. It makes me feel special :)

omenatarhuri
Jun 3, 2013, 07:08 AM
With Apple's monetary resources, it's time they hired more engineers and ended the "Jobsonian" need to keep small, tight knit interchangeable groups. The company has grown rapidly, requiring more in house engineers and designers. It's been apparent since 10.6 that OS X is suffering from a lack of engineering and focus.
I'm guessing they could hire "some" more. But rarely does multiplying software resources result in great software. More often velocity drops, random issues appear all over and talented guys spend their time coaching the newbies.

ResPublica
Jun 3, 2013, 08:26 AM
Exactly. People forget or never knew that Apple keeps a small team of iOS/OS X engineers and often moves them between departments. OS X engineers are often pulled into iOS development, resulting in OS X delays such as Leopard. However, Leopard's delays were forgiven as the iPhone launch was paramount to Apple's future in mobile computing. Many of us gave it a pass believing it a one time hiccup.

With Apple's monetary resources, it's time they hired more engineers and ended the "Jobsonian" need to keep small, tight knit interchangeable groups. The company has grown rapidly, requiring more in house engineers and designers. It's been apparent since 10.6 that OS X is suffering from a lack of engineering and focus.
I don't think that perception is correct. We basically had the same OS from 2007 to 2011; Snow Leopard only refined Leopard. I really liked SL at the time, but for most end users there was no difference with Leopard. Lion really changed that and added a lot of new functionality. Now we get an OS update once a year, like in the first years of the development of Mac OS X.

A lot of functionality has been inspired by iOS, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, Launchpad is useless eye-candy, but so was Front Row in the Finder and iTunes. Overall I do think ML is a lot nicer to use than SL.

Risco
Jun 3, 2013, 08:46 AM
Release today?

Krazy Bill
Jun 3, 2013, 08:57 AM
With Apple's monetary resources, it's time they hired more engineers and ended the "Jobsonian" need to keep small, tight knit interchangeable groups. The company has grown rapidly, requiring more in house engineers and designers. It's been apparent since 10.6 that OS X is suffering from a lack of engineering and focus.Fully agree but wishful thinking. It seems OSX and the hardware it runs on has been relegated to the basement:

- Mac Pro still in limbo
- 17" MBP discontinued
- Lackluster development with FCP/Aperture.
- Mac advertising is mostly non-existent these days.

But most importantly, and this is what puzzles me... with the lackluster sales of Windows 8, again Apple misses the opportunity to eek out a larger market share in the laptop/notebook arena. (It isn't dead yet). Yes, I know tablets are cannibalizing this market and Apple's mac sales are nothing compared to their iOS revenue but they are still producing macs so why not at least freaking try to sell more of them? I'm starting to feel like a legacy user.

peejack
Jun 3, 2013, 08:58 AM
tomorrow definitely...good source :D;):)

SeattleMoose
Jun 3, 2013, 10:24 AM
Fully agree but wishful thinking. It seems OSX and the hardware it runs on has been relegated to the basement:

- Lackluster development with FCP/Aperture.

I'm starting to feel like a legacy user.

You can add Logic to the "dustbin" list....:(

bedifferent
Jun 3, 2013, 10:45 AM
You can add Logic to the "dustbin" list....:(

Agree with you and Krazy Bill and just about everyone. Also valid points from those re: engineers on OS X. Having worked for corporate I can honestly relay that engineering departments are stressed, if that is the reason for OS X bugs seemingly becoming more prominent or not I can't state. Many expressed frustrations with past focus on iOS in OS X and such, and Forestall's then influence. I'm hoping with Ive at the helm, he and Craig Federighi can work on fine tuning and improving the foundation of the system.

I don't care about Facebook, Twitter, or more social networking integration. Those of us in the photography business learned the hard way that Facebook does not bring in new business. Uploading your work via Aperture to a Facebook profile gets "Likes" yet 99% of the time people are interested in free services or services I don't provide. Most of my business comes from word of mouth or traditional advertising. I speak for a great deal of us who would rather Apple focus on updates to pro-apps aside from social networking. Notification Center and launchpad are useless and more of an annoyance, thus disengaged/unused. If Siri is added, I'll be stunned. I use it via my Infiniti's bluetooth handsfree system, but I don't need it on my desktop system. All these "features" require a great deal of engineering, which does take emphasis and focus off bugs and key foundations that have impacted OS X. I don't necessarily want new features, but a return to what made OS X great.

Improved multiple display support, OpenGL Core, Finder/HFS+ (tabbed browsing, dual windows/sidebars akin to XtraFinder, perhaps a new F.S.), stable WiFi, Wireless ac support, iTunes improvements, revamped iPhoto and pro-Apps (Lightroom 4 blew Aperture 3.0 out of the water), return server tools and functionality removed with 10.7, keychain and dock syncing, etc.

I hope WWDC is a return to the "pro" market. With Adobe dropping a bomb with a subscription based CS suite, this would be a great opportunity for Apple to win back those who jumped ship after the Final Cut Pro X fiasco as Adobe stepped up their game, drawing in film and design firms in addition to Avid. The latest FCPX update finally brought back key features making it much better.

If WWDC doesn't pull in pro-app updates, a new Mac Pro with a better display line akin to the CCFL LCD 20"/23"/30" sizes while improving the notorious LED LCD panel issues that have plagued them since the 24" iMac release, I may be one of the remaining few who makes the switch to Windows.

milo
Jun 3, 2013, 11:10 AM
You can add Logic to the "dustbin" list....:(

People have been saying that, but I don't buy it. If they were killing Logic, they wouldn't keep working on point releases. Compare to apps like STP which went years without any updates at all before being killed off.

No question Logic is a lower priority, but we should finally see Logic 10 this summer or fall. The question is how big an update it is, it could be a big disappointment, only adding the bare minimum as an excuse to charge for an update, or it could be pretty major considering how long it has been in the works. We'll see when it ships.

Honestly, I think the iLife and iWork apps are as big a concern as Logic is. Apple hasn't had major updates to many of their apps for a long time, not just the pro ones. I have to wonder if they're considering getting out of the apps for sale business period.

sundragon
Jun 3, 2013, 11:42 AM
....I feel aggrieved that, with new OS's coming out every year, that the previous OS never get to the level of rock solid performance that comes with a few iterations, such as 10.6.8 and 10.5.8 and 10.4.11...



Just a reminder Microsoft, Google, and just about every other OS maker is moving to a yearly update - It means the OS is fresh and current (current with trends).

I hear you on the additional features being of limited benefit. What Apple could do better is shed the things that we don't use (though that can be dangerous as it offends the people who start using something and then miss it).

I beta tested 10.8.4 and it's quite a bit more stable. Let's hope 10.9 is better.

bedifferent
Jun 3, 2013, 12:15 PM
Just a reminder Microsoft, Google, and just about every other OS maker is moving to a yearly update - It means the OS is fresh and current (current with trends).

I hear you on the additional features being of limited benefit. What Apple could do better is shed the things that we don't use (though that can be dangerous as it offends the people who start using something and then miss it).

I beta tested 10.8.4 and it's quite a bit more stable. Let's hope 10.9 is better.

Agree. I've been a developer since, well, let's just say a long time :p. Before 10.7, beta's were released weekly or biweekly for at least a year as dmg's that required burning to a DVD and a clean install. This allowed for less chance of beta "updates" conflicting with third party apps or previous beta data. Currently, beta development consists of 4 DP's then the GM (so far, this may change), over a few months. Developers have noticed less stability and more open bugs acknowledged but never closed. This rarely occurred pre-10.7. Apple also lowered OS X developer memberships from hundreds of dollars to $99, in step with their iOS membership. Great way to bring more people into software development, but also added more flame to the fire with bug reporting and confusion from those unfamiliar with beta testing.

milo
Jun 3, 2013, 12:42 PM
Currently, beta development consists of 4 DP's then the GM (so far, this may change), over a few months.

I'm pretty sure there were more than four betas for 10.8. They were named strangely, only four were labeled as DPs but there were more betas in between labeled as updates.

Edit: looks like there were nine including the GM.

50548
Jun 3, 2013, 01:28 PM
What I meant was, with a 1.5-2 year release cycle, Apple could put out several point updates. I assume: the more point updates, the more refined the OS, the more bugs taken out. It's a rudimentary assumption, but fairly logical. It's possibly a reason why people rave about Snow Leopard being so rock solid, when, in fact, at launch day, SL was a dog.

So, my reference to the last point update of those earlier OS versions was to indicate the larger number of point updates they had, in contrast to Lion which only had 5.[COLOR="#808080"]



I see your point, and it may make sense from that perspective - in fact, I would much prefer to return to the good ol' days of TRUE major upgrades every two years instead of these ridiculously disappointing paid releases that add little more than iOSified crap to OS X.

I still remember the days of System 7, Jaguar, Tiger etc. when we REALLY had something exciting to talk about when a new OS version was released, both in terms of under- and over-the-hood improvements.

What do we get now? Reminders? AirDrop which I've used only ONCE in like what, a year? Messages? Gimme a break.

Asuriyan
Jun 3, 2013, 01:46 PM
I see your point, and it may make sense from that perspective - in fact, I would much prefer to return to the good ol' days of TRUE major upgrades every two years instead of these ridiculously disappointing paid releases that add little more than iOSified crap to OS X.

I still remember the days of System 7, Jaguar, Tiger etc. when we REALLY had something exciting to talk about when a new OS version was released, both in terms of under- and over-the-hood improvements.

What do we get now? Reminders? AirDrop which I've used only ONCE in like what, a year? Messages? Gimme a break.

While I see your point, innovation in any sector is eventually going to stagnate and OS development is no exception. Refinement necessitates that at some point, once you find something that works, you stick with it rather than continue to make sweeping changes that risk alienating your user base.

I'm fine with incremental improvements. I also appreciate that when I use my 'legacy' machines (such as my older MBP running Snow Leopard) the UI isn't so drastically different that it requires continual readjustment, but at the same time, there are newer features that genuinely improve my workflow (such as touch gestures) that I immediately miss.

I think the next big change, for better or worse, will be support for suspending background apps for the sake of battery life. As someone whose battery life can fluctuate significantly depending on what I'm doing, this is potentially an appreciable change. It just depends on implementation.

bedifferent
Jun 3, 2013, 01:51 PM
I'm pretty sure there were more than four betas for 10.8. They were named strangely, only four were labeled as DPs but there were more betas in between labeled as updates.

Edit: looks like there were nine including the GM.

Really? Huh, I was way off. Maybe it was Lion I'm thinking of. I remember DP1, DP2, DP3 and DP4, then the GM release. I still have em actually. Also kept a few beta's from Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard as they had some great features that didn't make GM due to licensing issues.

sundragon
Jun 3, 2013, 02:43 PM
I see your point, and it may make sense from that perspective - in fact, I would much prefer to return to the good ol' days of TRUE major upgrades every two years instead of these ridiculously disappointing paid releases that add little more than iOSified crap to OS X.

I still remember the days of System 7, Jaguar, Tiger etc. when we REALLY had something exciting to talk about when a new OS version was released, both in terms of under- and over-the-hood improvements.

What do we get now? Reminders? AirDrop which I've used only ONCE in like what, a year? Messages? Gimme a break.

I believe Apple realized they haven’t done a great job with the look and feel of the last few OS updates.

Adding incongruent features like Launchpad (I never use) and iOS features that most people don’t need may be their way of moving Mac OS towards iOS slowly vs. Microsoft’s quick UI change in the Windows 7 to Windows 8 (which should really only run on touch screen computers). That move has brought it a lot of critical feedback.

Regarding leaps in the OS from version to version: System 7 to Jaguar to Tiger were each huge leaps – The core OS needed it!

Currently the more frequent updates have reduced the leaps to minor jumps yearly. Part of that reason is that the core OS is stable, for the most part, compared to previous editions.

For example - I remember having to fix permissions, and run weekly/monthly crons to fix issues on my friends macs with 10.4 - 10.5 - That's now a rare occurrence. I would install Applejack on their systems to make this process easier – Today most people don’t know what Applejack is because we no longer need it.

We should hopefully see a better integration of iOS and Look/Feel of the OS. 10.9 should be more pure, cleaner with less "faux leather trim" and hopefully better integration.

As to price: The incremental updates cost ($29), which are a lot cheaper than Windows (My Ultimate license cost me $300 retail) requires with each version update. That may change now that MS is planning more frequent updates.

If Apple fails on this, they will pay a heavy price…

MacsRgr8
Jun 3, 2013, 03:19 PM
I see your point, and it may make sense from that perspective - in fact, I would much prefer to return to the good ol' days of TRUE major upgrades every two years instead of these ridiculously disappointing paid releases that add little more than iOSified crap to OS X.

I still remember the days of System 7, Jaguar, Tiger etc. when we REALLY had something exciting to talk about when a new OS version was released, both in terms of under- and over-the-hood improvements.

What do we get now? Reminders? AirDrop which I've used only ONCE in like what, a year? Messages? Gimme a break.

The price of a new OS X has dropped hugely to accommodate the small features added...:rolleyes:

By the way, with EVERY release of Mac OS there have always been critics about the new release.
It's just the way it works. The silent majority approves but many tech-heads on these kind of boards don't seem to like new features.
Remember when OS X 10.5 appeared? How much bashing there was about the new Dock? Some people hated Spotlight in Tiger when it first was available.

Apple is making iOS and OS X for the masses. Trying to make it as easy as possible, integrated with iCloud.
Apple is not using the same OS strategy as Microsoft. Apple is not about "support" or "backwards compatibility", etc. It's about trying to move forward, even by forcing new OS X releases on new hardware, even if Apple knows there are some known bugs. Apple wants all users to experience the latest new features.
Even if System Admins and Tech Support folk don't.

bedifferent
Jun 3, 2013, 03:40 PM
The price of a new OS X has dropped hugely to accommodate the small features added...:rolleyes:

Sorry, but why the eye roll? Genuinely curious. I've never understood the benefit as it seems insulting to a complete strangers opinion(s).

milo
Jun 3, 2013, 03:46 PM
...I would much prefer to return to the good ol' days of TRUE major upgrades every two years instead of these ridiculously disappointing paid releases...

To be fair, it used to be $129 every two years versus $19 to $29 every year, so it's hard to complain that they're not justifying the price. I wouldn't say that earlier OSX updates offered more than twice the new features of newer ones. And there's very little software that would keep a user from skipping an OS version.

Really? Huh, I was way off. Maybe it was Lion I'm thinking of. I remember DP1, DP2, DP3 and DP4, then the GM release. I still have em actually. Also kept a few beta's from Tiger, Leopard and Snow Leopard as they had some great features that didn't make GM due to licensing issues.

List of 10.8 betas down on the page here. Looks like Lion had 8 including GM. But it looks like SL had 14 betas and was tested for a year, so that is more releases and definitely a much longer period of time.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X_10.8_Mountain_Lion

grahamperrin
Jun 4, 2013, 12:51 AM
nine including the GM.

True. Eight pre-release builds were seeded.

grahamperrin
Jun 4, 2013, 01:08 AM
… Maybe it was Lion I'm thinking of. I remember DP1, DP2, DP3 and DP4, then the GM …

Probably not for OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion, but for at least one version of the OS:

not all pre-releases were known as developer previews.

For Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=8086277&postcount=2 reminds me of a Developer Preview Update (the build was greater than its predecessor, but the number of the developer preview was not greater).

MacsRgr8
Jun 4, 2013, 10:38 AM
Sorry, but why the eye roll? Genuinely curious. I've never understood the benefit as it seems insulting to a complete strangers opinion(s).

Yeah, after reading it again the eye roll does seem a bit insulting.
Sorry about that, that wasn't my intention.

It was merely meant trying to indicate that it is known that since OS X Lion the OS X upgrades are cheap.
Therefore the buyer shouldn't expect such a drastic new OS with huge amounts of new features as when Apple released the OS upgrades before Lion.

Again, not meant to insult, but trying to indicate that it should be known as it is the subject of the conversation.

fivedots
Jun 4, 2013, 10:45 AM
Yeah, after reading it again the eye roll does seem a bit insulting.
Sorry about that, that wasn't my intention.

It was merely meant trying to indicate that it is known that since OS X Lion the OS X upgrades are cheap.
Therefore the buyer shouldn't expect such a drastic new OS with huge amounts of new features as when Apple released the OS upgrades before Lion.

Again, not meant to insult, but trying to indicate that it should be known as it is the subject of the conversation.

It seems unfair to say that since the upgrades are cheap, there will not be huge amounts of new features.

Apple's strategy seems to be to sell hardware by offering attractive and affordable software. I don't think the price cut was intended to reflect the significance or depth of the updates.

mag01
Jun 4, 2013, 03:02 PM
12E55 out as final 10.8.4 build

OllyW
Jun 4, 2013, 03:05 PM
12E55 out as final

Just popped up as I was updating Mactracker.

dastinger
Jun 4, 2013, 03:21 PM
YAY! Hope it brings noticeable improvements :)

bedifferent
Jun 4, 2013, 08:47 PM
Yeah, after reading it again the eye roll does seem a bit insulting.
Sorry about that, that wasn't my intention.

It was merely meant trying to indicate that it is known that since OS X Lion the OS X upgrades are cheap.
Therefore the buyer shouldn't expect such a drastic new OS with huge amounts of new features as when Apple released the OS upgrades before Lion.

Again, not meant to insult, but trying to indicate that it should be known as it is the subject of the conversation.

Thanks for that, it's rare and refreshing to read a sincere explanation or apology for any misconstrued intentions. :)

Peace
Jun 8, 2013, 06:54 PM
Anybody notice the dev forums are down ?