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joejoejoe
Jun 6, 2013, 05:15 PM
My view is that Apple strives to make a phone that anyone can use. The iphone is meant to be incredibly simple and hard to F up.

I'm starting to think that the main reason apple doesn't offer quick settings controls is because there's a good chance that people who don't know any better will turn 3G/LTE off without realizing what they've done or what that means, leading to headaches for both the consumer and apple.

Or better yet, people turning on airplane mode without realizing it, then handing it to apple when they miss out on important emails or calls.

I hope I'm wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to control brightness on the fly--just trying to make sense of why Apple's never included this highly demanded feature (which a lot of mockups show in iOS 7).

What do you guys think?

ionjohn
Jun 6, 2013, 05:21 PM
So from your pov, most people don't know what airplane mode is? Or what 3g/wifi is?

Everyone does so it wouldn't make sense not to add it 'cause of that

joejoejoe
Jun 6, 2013, 05:26 PM
So from your pov, most people don't know what airplane mode is? Or what 3g/wifi is?

Everyone does so it wouldn't make sense not to add it 'cause of that

My parents and their friends don't care to know. They want to pick up their phone and use it. I've seen people turn off bluetooth and then freak out when their phones don't connect to their cars, etc.

Our community here obviously knows how to access all of these controls and settings, and is aware of the benefit of turning off 3G for example.

Notice that in the settings app, Apple has short sentences explaining the effects of what turning off 3G might do to your phone (slower speeds, increased battery life). There is no room for this in a quick settings control pane.

Do you see what I'm trying to get at?

Not trying to say my claim is correct, just trying to make sense of apple's decision from their POV.

Don't forget that in the beginning we didn't have multitasking, not to mention third party apps...

kmj2318
Jun 6, 2013, 05:26 PM
I totally agree. Tim Cook basically said this at D11. The truth is that a small percentage of consumers (enthusiasts) may want to fiddle with the workings of their phone, but the masses want Apple to make everything work for them. It's much more valuable to the majority for Apple to focus on making sure the settings work for the broad majority of cases, and eliminate the need for people to even be aware of it.

xcodeaddict
Jun 6, 2013, 05:29 PM
I totally agree. Tim Cook basically said this at D11. The truth is that a small percentage of consumers (enthusiasts) may want to fiddle with the workings of their phone, but the masses want Apple to make everything work for them. It's much more valuable to the majority for Apple to focus on making sure the settings work for the broad majority of cases, and eliminate the need for people to even be aware of it.

We all know who those "enthusiasts" are, and BOY do they get "enthused"! They can tinker around on "the other" platform, that's what it's for - to allow you to mess it up, so when you fix it you feel all superior and smart :D

cynics
Jun 6, 2013, 05:46 PM
What the difference of making a faster way to do setting people already have?

Why isn't this a major problem for smart phone manufacturers that offer this?

Cookie jar on a high shelf approach only works with kids not strong enough to move the chair.

Besides people HAVE to go in there anyway. How do you select which wifi? Settings. How do you select Do not Disturb? Settings. Select your car or Bluetooth headset? Settings. How do you do anything? Settings. I find it annoying its one of my most used apps.

So its not like apple is thinking "well if we hide it in here no one will mess with it". These are features of a phone. And while I agree certain people shouldn't mess with them that doesn't mean we all should be punished.

xcodeaddict
Jun 6, 2013, 05:49 PM
"Advanced" (?) settings are well hidden for a reason; just look at how quickly a novice manages to mess up an Android handset, become utterly baffled which leads to frustration, which leads to throwing it in a drawer, unused.

cynics
Jun 6, 2013, 05:56 PM
Actually I just thought of the perfect compromise! Quick toggles can be turn on or off by default its off. To turn it on you go into SETTINGS!! Lol

----------

"Advanced" (?) settings are well hidden for a reason; just look at how quickly a novice manages to mess up an Android handset, become utterly baffled which leads to frustration, which leads to throwing it in a drawer, unused.

Nearly fell out of my chair.

There's a thread in 'Alternatives' outlining how more people with college degrees and make more money use Apple devices.

But the phone is designed for morons? It's comforting knowing when the pilot says "put on your safety belts and set your phone to airplane mode" most of the people are stumped.

I understand what you guys are saying and in a sense I agree. But that doesn't mean there is an intuitive and easily explained way Apple could integrate this.

JoeyCloverfield
Jun 6, 2013, 07:29 PM
I think it's just that Apple wants to give the impression that these settings don't have to be constantly toggled on and off (that's how it should be, no?). In my personal experience, it doesn't do anything to my battery when I leave Wifi and 3G on permanently.

My sister had an Android phone and according to her the device only lasted two to three hours if she left 3G and/or Wifi on. Now she has an iPhone 5 and she still toggles the settings. Habit, I guess.

KUguardgrl13
Jun 6, 2013, 07:29 PM
My view is that Apple strives to make a phone that anyone can use. The iphone is meant to be incredibly simple and hard to F up.

I'm starting to think that the main reason apple doesn't offer quick settings controls is because there's a good chance that people who don't know any better will turn 3G/LTE off without realizing what they've done or what that means, leading to headaches for both the consumer and apple.

Or better yet, people turning on airplane mode without realizing it, then handing it to apple when they miss out on important emails or calls.

I hope I'm wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to control brightness on the fly--just trying to make sense of why Apple's never included this highly demanded feature (which a lot of mockups show in iOS 7).

What do you guys think?

I can totally believe this. My dad dropped close to $1000 on a 64gb Verizon LTE iPad for my mom. She thought turning LTE off would save on her data. Sigh... This is why she has 20-something year old children to fix things. I also help her with her 17" MBP doing things like transferring photos from her camera.

DavidBlack
Jun 6, 2013, 07:38 PM
I totally agree too some people are computer illiterate or iOS illiterate. I think a workaround would be to have a option in the settings app to have toggles on or off and have it default to off. :cool:

ThisIsNotMe
Jun 6, 2013, 07:42 PM
My view is that Apple strives to make a phone that anyone can use. The iphone is meant to be incredibly simple and hard to F up.

I'm starting to think that the main reason apple doesn't offer quick settings controls is because there's a good chance that people who don't know any better will turn 3G/LTE off without realizing what they've done or what that means, leading to headaches for both the consumer and apple.

Or better yet, people turning on airplane mode without realizing it, then handing it to apple when they miss out on important emails or calls.

I hope I'm wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to control brightness on the fly--just trying to make sense of why Apple's never included this highly demanded feature (which a lot of mockups show in iOS 7).

What do you guys think?

Precisely.

I consider myself an "enthusiast" who loves to tinker.
Built several OSX86 machines just to tinker/because I could.

Phones are consumer electronics devices NOT computers.
(yes they are computers in the technical sense but so are DVD players, modern refrigerators, ect.)

The tech crowd mistakenly confuses them with computers while the general public sees them as consumer electronics devices - devices that you just pick up and use - no tinkering.

When I pick up my phone I want to check email, send texts, make calls, maybe play a game on BART, but most importantly get business done. I don't have time to fiddle with settings.

GoCubsGo
Jun 6, 2013, 07:55 PM
Summary, toggles won't happen because the OP thinks people are stupid? I disagree.

joejoejoe
Jun 6, 2013, 08:36 PM
Summary, toggles won't happen because the OP thinks people are stupid? I disagree.

Hilarious, I never said anyone was stupid. I don't think my mother is stupid for not knowing what it means to turn LTE off. Nor do I think it's worth her time to learn something so trivial that us nerds can't help but get enthused over.

Apple wants to create an experience that does not necessitate fiddling with settings, toggling options on and off. Their goal is to build technology that does not get in the way of the information and content we want to consume. For this I in fact applaud them.

5aga
Jun 6, 2013, 09:18 PM
At this point I don't consider too many people as "novice" users.

Tbh a lot of people would have an easier time coping with the settings if they were presented as quick toggles. In my experience with helping others the frustration usually stems from scrolling through endless settings menus.

As others have said the option for quick settings is the best solution.

Mackan
Jun 6, 2013, 10:14 PM
Hilarious, I never said anyone was stupid. I don't think my mother is stupid for not knowing what it means to turn LTE off. Nor do I think it's worth her time to learn something so trivial that us nerds can't help but get enthused over.

Apple wants to create an experience that does not necessitate fiddling with settings, toggling options on and off. Their goal is to build technology that does not get in the way of the information and content we want to consume. For this I in fact applaud them.

I agree with this. Some people here lack perspectives.

Random 995K
Jun 6, 2013, 11:37 PM
Actually I just thought of the perfect compromise! Quick toggles can be turn on or off by default its off. To turn it on you go into SETTINGS!!

Genius

Knosrac
Jun 6, 2013, 11:47 PM
I also think Apple won't introduce this feature.

How often do you guys honestly change these settings?

Unless I'm traveling (and 99% of people aren't traveling 99% of the time) I never change my WiFi, Bluetooth, etc. settings.

My iPhone 4S never dies before the end of the day and I expect future iPhones to have even better batteries.

Frankly if it were in an easily accessible, it would be a waste of interface space with a small benefit for most users and could surely be used for something more useful.

Maybe something along the Google Now lines.

Can't wait for iOS 7!

oiuh151
Jun 6, 2013, 11:53 PM
All they need to add is fast brightness control like on the iPad for the iPhone. Absolutely ridiculous that I need to go to settings each time I want to change it. Auto brightness is not a solution to this problem.

Icaras
Jun 7, 2013, 12:00 AM
Hilarious, I never said anyone was stupid. I don't think my mother is stupid for not knowing what it means to turn LTE off. Nor do I think it's worth her time to learn something so trivial that us nerds can't help but get enthused over.

Apple wants to create an experience that does not necessitate fiddling with settings, toggling options on and off. Their goal is to build technology that does not get in the way of the information and content we want to consume. For this I in fact applaud them.

I couldn't agree more. Well said, sir.

Hagrid
Jun 7, 2013, 12:00 AM
Never understood why there wasn't a standard settings mode and an advanced settings mode (possibly needing an authentication) where us "enthusiasts" can have the flexibility we want to tinker.

We could then enable "quick toggles" or any other mods we find convenient.

Knosrac
Jun 7, 2013, 12:01 AM
All they need to add is fast brightness control like on the iPad for the iPhone. Absolutely ridiculous that I need to go to settings each time I want to change it. Auto brightness is not a solution to this problem.

Completely agree. It really bugs me that Apple gives us a volume slider even though there are buttons on the phone to do exactly that

irDigital0l
Jun 7, 2013, 12:53 AM
Why not have a Notification widget that people can choose to turn on or off.

Its off by default, people that want it know what to do.

Everyone is happy.

lewismayell
Jun 7, 2013, 12:57 AM
Maybe, in the settings app, if they did introduce quick toggles, you can just choose what you want, that way, we get what we want and the others stay away from playing with their data stuff

jabingla2810
Jun 7, 2013, 01:46 AM
I agree, and have said it plenty of times in the past.

The future isn't quick settings, it's not having to think about settings.

The phone should be used, not managed.

People say, "Whats the problem with having them more visible?"

By having them more visible, you're bringing them to the attention of users, and giving the impression that the phone has to managed.

Apple have been transparent in saying these are "Post PC" devices, they need to be easier and more intuative to use.

Other phone developers are either too scared or not forward thinking enough to think outside the box, and use old PC features as a crutch. File Systems, Quick settings, removable storage and batteries etc.

These features are not moving us forward, they are holding us back, and it's upto Apple to "Think Different", grow some balls again and leapfrog past the idea that we need to manage these devices.

(On Monday, I may well be proved wrong, and Apple will introduce a file system and quick settings... but if they do either, its a BIG step backwards, not forwards.)

Rogifan
Jun 7, 2013, 01:52 AM
I don't see how thngs like Bluetooth and wifi are considered advanced settings. And the rumors out there indicate we probably will see easier access to these settings in iOS 7.

Abazigal
Jun 7, 2013, 05:41 AM
To me, apple rationale would be that there is no real need to. iOS is, by its very nature, quite power efficient. I am indifferent to leaving wifi and Bluetooth on 24/7 simply because the impact on battery life is so minimal. Your iPhone defaults back to 2g in sleep mode. The only time I really need airplane mode is if I suddenly lose reception.

If anything, apple should continue to work in making these toggles more intelligent and capable of managing themselves so we don't have to.

Naor
Jun 7, 2013, 06:04 AM
If the iPhone is made for idiots, I don't want to be this idiot. I will switch to Android.

BvizioN
Jun 7, 2013, 06:05 AM
So from your pov, most people don't know what airplane mode is? Or what 3g/wifi is?

Everyone does so it wouldn't make sense not to add it 'cause of that

I know perfectly what they are!
I have Cidia tweak of quick settings on my notification screen and also on a bottom of home page! Many times I have wondered why my interntet has stoped working just to find out that by mistake I have pressed the "DATA" OFF.

But I still don't think that's the reason. If Apple want's to implement it, they could find a very simple and easy way to avoid any of the concerns mentioned above.

donnaw
Jun 7, 2013, 06:13 AM
Hilarious, I never said anyone was stupid. I don't think my mother is stupid for not knowing what it means to turn LTE off. Nor do I think it's worth her time to learn something so trivial that us nerds can't help but get enthused over.

Apple wants to create an experience that does not necessitate fiddling with settings, toggling options on and off. Their goal is to build technology that does not get in the way of the information and content we want to consume. For this I in fact applaud them.

You don't think it's worth her time to learn something so trivial? Have you asked her? Sorry, I'm an 'older woman' and frankly you may be selling your mother short. First, chances are you only need to show her once. Second, whether you realize it or not, there are times when you may not be around to do it for her. She should learn to do it for herself. If for no other reason than learning new things keeps us young.

Stop sheltering her. Teach her or give her the manual.

As for your reason Apple shouldn't provide quick toggles, well, when one first get an iPhone or iPad it doesn't come with wifi automatically turned on, nor does it come with Bluetooth automatically turned on, etc. Unless the buyer has it set up for them they have to go digging into Setting at least once for the initial setup. Especially for wifi.

I got my first smartphone in 2003. And I've had at least one of every flavor (including WebOS). Frankly the Settings in IOS are the most buried of any OS I've ever used. They are scattered all over the place and not necessarily in the most logical place. Some are in Settings (usually buried) some are in the app ( but not all). For as long as I've been using IOS I still have it hunt for some things that I change rarely.

If Apple doesn't give quick Settings they should at least move the most changed settings to one place and at the top of the menu rather than buried several layers down. THAT'S what confusing. Not what those setting do but how to find them easily if you don't use them frequently.

tekno
Jun 7, 2013, 06:31 AM
just look at how quickly a novice manages to mess up an Android handset, become utterly baffled which leads to frustration, which leads to throwing it in a drawer, unused.

I hear sales of drawers have increased massively due to people's furniture overflowing with unused Android phones.

I mean, come on, get real.

tmanto02
Jun 7, 2013, 07:03 AM
An advanced mode would be amazing but I doubt it would ever happen :(

iCole
Jun 7, 2013, 07:19 AM
Adding toggles for bluetooth, GPS, ... to save your battery life is admitting that you have to use them in order to get decent battery life. That you have to "babysit" your iPhone like you would a computer. Apple wants you to use the device without having to care about these things. I do understand and like the idea. (I still don't understand the whole concept of 'Sync' on Android). But it still is nice to have the option to turn off stuff quickly that, in reality, does eat up your battery.

Frankly, I use them often on my S3 but I never really missed them on my iPhone.

----------

Frankly the Settings in IOS are the most buried of any OS I've ever used. They are scattered all over the place and not necessarily in the most logical place. Some are in Settings (usually buried) some are in the app ( but not all). For as long as I've been using IOS I still have it hunt for some things that I change rarely.

If Apple doesn't give quick Settings they should at least move the most changed settings to one place and at the top of the menu rather than buried several layers down. THAT'S what confusing. Not what those setting do but how to find them easily if you don't use them frequently.

Agreed. This really needs to change in iOS7, either by keeping the settings in the settings menu (and providing a direct link in the app itself) or just by putting them in the app itself. Make it happen, Ive.

devilcm3
Jun 7, 2013, 07:22 AM
my friends doesn't even know the difference between 3G and cellular data, for them it is the same.

but yeah i do agree at least apple could make it a panel in the notifications centre which can be activated manually.

Irishman
Jun 7, 2013, 07:25 AM
My view is that Apple strives to make a phone that anyone can use. The iphone is meant to be incredibly simple and hard to F up.

I'm starting to think that the main reason apple doesn't offer quick settings controls is because there's a good chance that people who don't know any better will turn 3G/LTE off without realizing what they've done or what that means, leading to headaches for both the consumer and apple.

Or better yet, people turning on airplane mode without realizing it, then handing it to apple when they miss out on important emails or calls.

I hope I'm wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to control brightness on the fly--just trying to make sense of why Apple's never included this highly demanded feature (which a lot of mockups show in iOS 7).

What do you guys think?

I think the real reason is security. Anytime you make a way to work features into the lock screen , you open holes for someone to exploit that feature to take advantage of it, and do things to your phone. As it is, the iOS lock screen is more secure than the Android lock screen.

Orka
Jun 7, 2013, 10:00 AM
My view is that Apple strives to make a phone that anyone can use. The iphone is meant to be incredibly simple and hard to F up.

I'm starting to think that the main reason apple doesn't offer quick settings controls is because there's a good chance that people who don't know any better will turn 3G/LTE off without realizing what they've done or what that means, leading to headaches for both the consumer and apple.

Or better yet, people turning on airplane mode without realizing it, then handing it to apple when they miss out on important emails or calls.

I hope I'm wrong, I would love nothing more than to be able to control brightness on the fly--just trying to make sense of why Apple's never included this highly demanded feature (which a lot of mockups show in iOS 7).

What do you guys think?

I think if they really cared about people like you claim they would offer optional app like sbs setting in itunes app store (they could even make it free app), those who want it, know it, would use it with no problems and with comfort.

viperGTS
Jun 7, 2013, 10:06 AM
I 110% agree with you. I believe that Apple believes tha the user shouldn't even have to think about messing with settings toggles.

cynics
Jun 7, 2013, 10:52 AM
I agree, and have said it plenty of times in the past.

The future isn't quick settings, it's not having to think about settings.

The phone should be used, not managed.

People say, "Whats the problem with having them more visible?"

By having them more visible, you're bringing them to the attention of users, and giving the impression that the phone has to managed.

Apple have been transparent in saying these are "Post PC" devices, they need to be easier and more intuative to use.

Other phone developers are either too scared or not forward thinking enough to think outside the box, and use old PC features as a crutch. File Systems, Quick settings, removable storage and batteries etc.

These features are not moving us forward, they are holding us back, and it's upto Apple to "Think Different", grow some balls again and leapfrog past the idea that we need to manage these devices.

(On Monday, I may well be proved wrong, and Apple will introduce a file system and quick settings... but if they do either, its a BIG step backwards, not forwards.)

Because it doesn't manage itself very well.

I goto work and I need to choose which wifi network to use or not use.

I go home and I want my Bluetooth to connect to other devices then my phone and I need to turn it on and off.

I want location services to be off at certain times because location data is imbedded in photos and sometimes that location is sensitive.

I goto bed and I need to turn do not disturb on and off because it can't be scheduled for weekends.

Business trip and I'm turning on airplane mode.

So yeah, if it managed itself I'd agree with you. Why Apple doesn't use location based settings like the competition can blows my mind. Why not know when I'm home and turn off my Bluetooth? Or whatever.

joejoejoe
Jun 7, 2013, 11:25 AM
You don't think it's worth her time to learn something so trivial? Have you asked her? Sorry, I'm an 'older woman' and frankly you may be selling your mother short. First, chances are you only need to show her once. Second, whether you realize it or not, there are times when you may not be around to do it for her. She should learn to do it for herself. If for no other reason than learning new things keeps us young.

Stop sheltering her. Teach her or give her the manual.

As for your reason Apple shouldn't provide quick toggles, well, when one first get an iPhone or iPad it doesn't come with wifi automatically turned on, nor does it come with Bluetooth automatically turned on, etc. Unless the buyer has it set up for them they have to go digging into Setting at least once for the initial setup. Especially for wifi.

I got my first smartphone in 2003. And I've had at least one of every flavor (including WebOS). Frankly the Settings in IOS are the most buried of any OS I've ever used. They are scattered all over the place and not necessarily in the most logical place. Some are in Settings (usually buried) some are in the app ( but not all). For as long as I've been using IOS I still have it hunt for some things that I change rarely.

If Apple doesn't give quick Settings they should at least move the most changed settings to one place and at the top of the menu rather than buried several layers down. THAT'S what confusing. Not what those setting do but how to find them easily if you don't use them frequently.

No, I am not selling her short, nor am I sheltering her. I teach her the things that matter, group messaging, photo streaming, editing her photos, trimming clips of baby videos so they can be sent via imessage... the list goes on and on. And she's an ace it all.

worrying about LTE being on and off is something I don't even want to have to worry about. Like many others have said on this thread, the phone should manage itself, and I still maintain that worrying about toggles shouldn't be a daily duty of owning a phone. I don't teach it to her because for her there is little to no benefit, nor does she care.

You seem interested and tech savvy in these things, and that's great. I think it's awesome that you've gone ahead and got yourself every version of smartphone.

My parents aren't like that, and they don't want to be. They each had a motorola startac for 10 years before switching to the iphone (and believe it or not, my dad owns a tech accessories business, and he's successful). Trust me, we tried to persuade them to get something newer after having the startac for a few years, but they weren't interested. Nothing provided an experience as easy as the startac. They were not willing to sacrifice usability and intuitive design for a color screen, the ability to take photos, have email on their phones etc. The iPhone brought them even more usability and intuitive design than the motorola, and so they switched, and now they use the devices very well.

Quick toggle settings go against what they want out of their phones, and I understand why.

Thank you for your concern, but no, I am not selling my mother short. In fact, I see the way she stubbornly wants simplicity out of her phone as comparable to Apple's strive for an uninterrupted experience when using their products.

They want the user to get to their photos, communication tools, videos, music, memories, games, etc, all without interruption. My mom wants the same thing. And there's nothing wrong with that.

jabingla2810
Jun 7, 2013, 11:35 AM
Why Apple doesn't use location based settings like the competition can blows my mind. Why not know when I'm home and turn off my Bluetooth? Or whatever.

Now you're thinking!

We agree.

My point wasn't that the settings should completely disappear, it was that "quick settings" are not the answer.

charlituna
Jun 7, 2013, 12:07 PM
Or better yet, people turning on airplane mode without realizing it, then handing it to apple when they miss out on important emails or calls.


You think Apple won't be happy to educate them when they show up at a store demanding a new phone and this is all that is wrong.

They are. Just like when folks come in that their receiver doesn't work cause they left the plastic on, only one speaker works etc

Parise
Jun 7, 2013, 12:20 PM
I know you Apple diehards won't like this idea one bit... but what if.... Apple gave the user the ability to turn off and on the quick setting menu in the notification bar like it does for EVERY OTHER NOTIFICATION? Ship the product with it turned off, so that these individuals who you claim have no idea what the settings are for won't even know to activate it.

Corollary: Even the least tech savvy people I've ever met who own an iPhone know wtf Airplane mode is for.

wknapp0924
Jun 7, 2013, 12:34 PM
I also think Apple won't introduce this feature.

How often do you guys honestly change these settings?

Unless I'm traveling (and 99% of people aren't traveling 99% of the time) I never change my WiFi, Bluetooth, etc. settings.

My iPhone 4S never dies before the end of the day and I expect future iPhones to have even better batteries.

Frankly if it were in an easily accessible, it would be a waste of interface space with a small benefit for most users and could surely be used for something more useful.

Maybe something along the Google Now lines.

Can't wait for iOS 7!

I change mine all the time, my office has zero service most the time so it zaps my battery, so I turn off my data when I walk in my office, and then when I am out and about i quickly switch my data back on with my JB toggles, I sometimes like it brighter and darker, but that could be fixed if apple allowed F.Lux to be on an unjailbroken device. I use my toggles daily. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean others don't.

Parise
Jun 7, 2013, 12:46 PM
My iPhone 4S never dies before the end of the day and I expect future iPhones to have even better batteries.


You must not have Sprint as your provider then :)

Consider yourself lucky. My data connection is so bad that my 4S battery could be 3092843 mAh and still die in 3 hours.

Knosrac
Jun 7, 2013, 01:01 PM
I change mine all the time, my office has zero service most the time so it zaps my battery, so I turn off my data when I walk in my office, and then when I am out and about i quickly switch my data back on with my JB toggles, I sometimes like it brighter and darker, but that could be fixed if apple allowed F.Lux to be on an unjailbroken device. I use my toggles daily. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean others don't.

Oh, I know. I just figure most people don't have a big need to be able to quickly changes these settings.

The ideal solution to me would be using geofencing to automatically enable/disable settings.

That'll fix the problem without making the user do any work at all


You must not have Sprint as your provider then :)
Good guess ;-) - I'm on Verizon

cynics
Jun 7, 2013, 01:03 PM
I think there are two different trains of thought here. Some people who turn things on and off to conserve battery. And those that turn things on and off for functioning reasons.

saidtezel
Jun 7, 2013, 02:54 PM
IMO, there are two fronts why Android has these toggles and they seem so functional:

1. Battery management in Android isn't as efficient as it is with iOS, which requires having to give users a switch to contribute with the efficiency
2. Android users are more into tinkering, and this would clearly give them a proof of Android's "openness"


As said before, these toggles and their effectiveness on battery life would be so minimal with iOS. My cousin switches back-and-forth between 3G and EDGE every hour so, which raises the question whether if it's even worth it considering how frequent they toggle it.

Should Apple include some toggles? Definitely! But personally I wouldn't seen use of any toggle beyond the brightness, which can easily be fixed with a volume slider replacement.

donnaw
Jun 7, 2013, 03:11 PM
No, I am not selling her short, nor am I sheltering her. I teach her the things that matter, group messaging, photo streaming, editing her photos, trimming clips of baby videos so they can be sent via imessage... the list goes on and on. And she's an ace it all.

worrying about LTE being on and off is something I don't even want to have to worry about. Like many others have said on this thread, the phone should manage itself, and I still maintain that worrying about toggles shouldn't be a daily duty of owning a phone. I don't teach it to her because for her there is little to no benefit, nor does she care.

You seem interested and tech savvy in these things, and that's great. I think it's awesome that you've gone ahead and got yourself every version of smartphone.

My parents aren't like that, and they don't want to be. They each had a motorola startac for 10 years before switching to the iphone (and believe it or not, my dad owns a tech accessories business, and he's successful). Trust me, we tried to persuade them to get something newer after having the startac for a few years, but they weren't interested. Nothing provided an experience as easy as the startac. They were not willing to sacrifice usability and intuitive design for a color screen, the ability to take photos, have email on their phones etc. The iPhone brought them even more usability and intuitive design than the motorola, and so they switched, and now they use the devices very well.

Quick toggle settings go against what they want out of their phones, and I understand why.

Thank you for your concern, but no, I am not selling my mother short. In fact, I see the way she stubbornly wants simplicity out of her phone as comparable to Apple's strive for an uninterrupted experience when using their products.

They want the user to get to their photos, communication tools, videos, music, memories, games, etc, all without interruption. My mom wants the same thing. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Well I'm 'tech savvy because that's what I did for a living before I retired. I was probably using punch cards before most of you were born.

That being said, there are many things I'm not 'savvy' in (such as plumbing or electrical work) but I have found that I needed to learn a lot because there's not always someone around to 'fix it' for me. However, if your parents don't want to know, that's their choice.

But just because some Apple customers have no use for a better way to manage their phones doesn't mean many others don't have the need. It's not always about conserving battery. I leave my wifi and Bluetooth on most of the time. But there are times when I must manage my phone, traveling comes to mind because I travel a lot.

When the first iPhone came out very few people had any experience with smartphones. That was the major reason it was such a success. It was simple enough that most could pick it up and begin using it without much of a learning curve. But that was years ago. The majority of users have moved on and are capable of understanding/learning to use a more complicated device.

There is absolutely no valid reason not to give easy access to the most used settings for people who want/need to adjust them. As I posted before, the current layout is actually confusing and a bit illogical. I worked on software development for close to 30 years. All the way from coding to project management. I'm very, very familiar with what we loving called 'dumb users'. But designing software superficially for dumb users and leaving out users who need better control isn't alway the best idea.

Apple users have progressed. I think the vast majority can handle a change in the UI. When we talked about 'flattening ' a design, we weren't talking about icons. We were trying to simplify the menu structure. Less clicks to get somewhere, more logical menus. I'm hoping that's what Apple means when they say flattening. At the very least make things easier to get to if you do need to use them.

cynics
Jun 7, 2013, 04:26 PM
IMO, there are two fronts why Android has these toggles and they seem so functional:

1. Battery management in Android isn't as efficient as it is with iOS, which requires having to give users a switch to contribute with the efficiency
2. Android users are more into tinkering, and this would clearly give them a proof of Android's "openness"


As said before, these toggles and their effectiveness on battery life would be so minimal with iOS. My cousin switches back-and-forth between 3G and EDGE every hour so, which raises the question whether if it's even worth it considering how frequent they toggle it.

Should Apple include some toggles? Definitely! But personally I wouldn't seen use of any toggle beyond the brightness, which can easily be fixed with a volume slider replacement.

I disagree I believe quick toggles are in Android because they can be.

By that I mean, android didn't always have them. BUT devs could write apps to make them (toggle widget). Then after a while manufacturers started picking up that people liked them and they integrated them into their skins. Then Google saw the popularity and integrated them into stock Android.

Keep in mind quick toggles can be accomplished on pretty much all smart phones natively or using an app. I don't think its fair to say everyone that owns a windows phone or black berry wants to tinker with their phone.

Also I don't think the battery isnt any more or less of an argument then on a iOS. A lot of these parts are shared across manufacturers. The Bluetooth in a windows phone maybe the same exact model used in an Android phone. I've never found leaving my Bluetooth or GPS on any Android device to use less or more battery then my iPhone does.

Check out this link.

http://www.apple.com/batteries/iphone.html

Apple says to use airplane mode and minimize location services. If they could I'm sure they'd say turn everything off but that would just look bad.

jonnyb098
Jun 7, 2013, 04:34 PM
The OP argument doesn't really hold up anymore. If that were the case we would still be using horse and buggy. People will get scared naturally with change but if things never advanced, then this would be a much different world.

saidtezel
Jun 7, 2013, 04:49 PM
I disagree I believe quick toggles are in Android because they can be.

By that I mean, android didn't always have them. BUT devs could write apps to make them (toggle widget). Then after a while manufacturers started picking up that people liked them and they integrated them into their skins. Then Google saw the popularity and integrated them into stock Android.

Keep in mind quick toggles can be accomplished on pretty much all smart phones natively or using an app. I don't think its fair to say everyone that owns a windows phone or black berry wants to tinker with their phone.

Also I don't think the battery isnt any more or less of an argument then on a iOS. A lot of these parts are shared across manufacturers. The Bluetooth in a windows phone maybe the same exact model used in an Android phone. I've never found leaving my Bluetooth or GPS on any Android device to use less or more battery then my iPhone does.

Check out this link.

http://www.apple.com/batteries/iphone.html

Apple says to use airplane mode and minimize location services. If they could I'm sure they'd say turn everything off but that would just look bad.

You are right about the hardware similarity part, many components are used by many companies. But take Windows vs OS example, pretty much same mentality with common component usage, and yet OS comes out more efficient with battery hours. Just like that, an iPhone and Android using very similar internal parts may come out having drastic performance differences in videogames. This was an issue with a recent car-racing game.

And the part with toggles, Apple defends the idea of simplicity. "If something is useful, it should be there, if not, there is no reason for it to be there." Looking at it from this perspective, they probably understood how broad market segment would underuse these toggles (enthusiasts and tinkerers aside). Which might be true. I'm a casual/power iPhone user of 5 years and I don't feel those toggles as necessary. Again, maybe your understanding and habits are different, but the way I look at iPhone users around me, they mostly don't miss it.

pcmxa
Jun 7, 2013, 05:22 PM
You are right about the hardware similarity part, many components are used by many companies. But take Windows vs OS example, pretty much same mentality with common component usage, and yet OS comes out more efficient with battery hours. Just like that, an iPhone and Android using very similar internal parts may come out having drastic performance differences in videogames. This was an issue with a recent car-racing game.

And the part with toggles, Apple defends the idea of simplicity. "If something is useful, it should be there, if not, there is no reason for it to be there." Looking at it from this perspective, they probably understood how broad market segment would underuse these toggles (enthusiasts and tinkerers aside). Which might be true. I'm a casual/power iPhone user of 5 years and I don't feel those toggles as necessary. Again, maybe your understanding and habits are different, but the way I look at iPhone users around me, they mostly don't miss it.

Out of curiosity do you have links to any Mac vs PC or iPhone vs android tests of battery life? I did look for the Mac vs PC but all I found was that windows drains a mac book faster because the bootcamp drivers are inefficient. Nothing about tests on native, similar hardware.

With android vs iPhone it is also not clear since many of the anecdotal data are based on vastly differing hardware

I just switched from ups to android (a pretty seamless process) and have found the battery life to be comparable even without the toggles. That said, I like having them for this situations where battery drain is likely to happen or where I don't want geoencoding.

Once I finish setting up my geofencing though, I hope not to need them at all, though they will make a nice confirmation that my daytime work settings and my leaving the house settings are working correctly.

I agree that apple and android should ask for an os that names it all for you. It shouldn't be something the user needs to do, but clearly we aren't there yet

cynics
Jun 7, 2013, 06:10 PM
You are right about the hardware similarity part, many components are used by many companies. But take Windows vs OS example, pretty much same mentality with common component usage, and yet OS comes out more efficient with battery hours. Just like that, an iPhone and Android using very similar internal parts may come out having drastic performance differences in videogames. This was an issue with a recent car-racing game.

And the part with toggles, Apple defends the idea of simplicity. "If something is useful, it should be there, if not, there is no reason for it to be there." Looking at it from this perspective, they probably understood how broad market segment would underuse these toggles (enthusiasts and tinkerers aside). Which might be true. I'm a casual/power iPhone user of 5 years and I don't feel those toggles as necessary. Again, maybe your understanding and habits are different, but the way I look at iPhone users around me, they mostly don't miss it.

Of course iOS is more efficient. Not only is it written better its doing less. Watching a YouTube video while typing this is gonna burn through more battery then youtube suspended in the background. DOS is more power efficient then windows at idle too, it also takes more work to screw things up.

I think my point is and back on topic a little more about iOS and less about alternatives. If you are going to have an option its better (to me) to have that option done easier. I don't think hiding it is the best way of doing things.

aslucher
Jun 8, 2013, 02:17 AM
From personal experience with my iPhones and quite a few of my friend's and family's iPhones, I agree with this post.

First of all college graduates may buy the phone but just because they graduated and have a degree, doesn't mean they know everything? Why else would people ever continue schooling? Multiple degrees, Bachelors, Masters, etc

Secondly and back to what I initially started with, I have a jailbroken iPhone 5. So do a few of my friends. I have the quick toggles in my notification center and so do they. Ive tried so many other "quick" ways from activator to sbsettings. Countless times I've had my pocket hit so many different toggles and I don't know what's happened. Some of my friends and family HAVE come to me going what's happened to my phone? When the problem just that BiteSMS was toggled off or LTE was toggled off or something that simple yet so detrimental to their use of the phone.

I've been jailbreaking and programming for iPhones since the original. Not only for me, but for my friends and family. I'm literally countless people's go to man when it comes to anything Apple. I feel as though I know so many ins and outs of the iPhone and yet the toggles STILL CONFUSE ME SOMETIMES.

Tim Cook is right. We may meddle. We may change or alter, but at the end of the day we purchase Apple products because they handle so many other tasks for you. This being one of them for me. There isn't something quick enough that's really efficient enough to be fully added. Well yet I should say, who knows this year I guess?

K-Funk
Jun 8, 2013, 02:35 AM
Wow, this thread convinces me I made the right decision in getting an Android. By the logic of some here, Apple should just do away with settings altogether.

aslucher
Jun 8, 2013, 02:43 AM
Wow, this thread convinces me I made the right decision in getting an Android. By the logic of some here, Apple should just do away with settings altogether.

No it comes down to this, it's a touch screen. We all want perfect touch screen phones and instantaneous results once the phone is in your hand and at the same time we want it to distinguish our hands from your upper thigh.....

cynics
Jun 8, 2013, 07:30 AM
No it comes down to this, it's a touch screen. We all want perfect touch screen phones and instantaneous results once the phone is in your hand and at the same time we want it to distinguish our hands from your upper thigh.....

How is this different from anything else on the phone? More importantly do you pockets have a laying of material between it and your thigh?

I don't get how you are toggling things on and off via your pocket but not be calling people, deleting contacts or anything else. What keeps your thigh from entering the settings menu and reeking havoc?!?

aslucher
Jun 8, 2013, 11:11 AM
How is this different from anything else on the phone? More importantly do you pockets have a laying of material between it and your thigh?

I don't get how you are toggling things on and off via your pocket but not be calling people, deleting contacts or anything else. What keeps your thigh from entering the settings menu and reeking havoc?!?

The material inside your pocket? Have you seen that stuff? Personally I live in Phoenix, Az a normal day makes that material slightly damp and it attracts anything. And the screen design doesn't account for that. Yes it has proximity sensors and what have you but especially if the home button is pressed in pocket, it's designed off of your electrical current in your entire body

Settings app is no where near the same. It isn't a congruent list of toggles all designed for speed. It's designed to be hidden and organized. It hardly ever is pulled open even if it is, one category can be fixed. It's when you have all of them in a row that things get messy. Not to mention most of the "quick" ways are accessing through the lock screen not the home screen

Other people get called sometimes and stuff happens inside my pocket. This was one example. But that is Apple's point. If they can't stop you from making a simple call why add system settings to the loop.

The difference is Apple says no to these "quick" apps. That's the point. To them. They SUCK!!!

cynics
Jun 8, 2013, 11:44 AM
The material inside your pocket? Have you seen that stuff? Personally I live in Phoenix, Az a normal day makes that material slightly damp and it attracts anything. And the screen design doesn't account for that. Yes it has proximity sensors and what have you but especially if the home button is pressed in pocket, it's designed off of your electrical current in your entire body

Settings app is no where near the same. It isn't a congruent list of toggles all designed for speed. It's designed to be hidden and organized. It hardly ever is pulled open even if it is, one category can be fixed. It's when you have all of them in a row that things get messy. Not to mention most of the "quick" ways are accessing through the lock screen not the home screen

Other people get called sometimes and stuff happens inside my pocket. This was one example. But that is Apple's point. If they can't stop you from making a simple call why add system settings to the loop.

The difference is Apple says no to these "quick" apps. That's the point. To them. They SUCK!!!

I guess I can't relate. I've never has my phone unlock and things start happening inside of my pocket. It's sounds to me that the problem you are having is because they were on the lock screen.

I think most of us (that would find this feature useful) expect better integration. Personally I was thinking from the notification window.

I also would keep my phone in a damp pocket but that's just me. :)

Vundu
Jun 8, 2013, 11:56 AM
They just could have quick toggles turned off by default. Problem solved.

moonman239
Jun 8, 2013, 12:50 PM
I vote for allowing each user to enable or disable this feature. It'll be there if they want it, and it won't be there if they don't.

jonnyb098
Jun 8, 2013, 01:19 PM
Tim Cook admitted that Apple "can do more" to be more open with their mobile OS. Don't bury the idea of quick toggles just yet.

Apple loves to steal from the jailbreak community and "Auxo" is currently one of the top tweaks and its all about quick toggles.

aslucher
Jun 8, 2013, 02:52 PM
I guess I can't relate. I've never has my phone unlock and things start happening inside of my pocket. It's sounds to me that the problem you are having is because they were on the lock screen.

I think most of us (that would find this feature useful) expect better integration. Personally I was thinking from the notification window.

I also would keep my phone in a damp pocket but that's just me. :)

Lol I wish I didn't have to worry about it but 115-118 degrees isn't easy to work in. Not much around sweat in the desert it's what prob affects it the most I think because its warm n right on my thigh as I walk.

The notification center widget is great but if I want my Bluetooth on quick I want to do it through the lock screen. Like that's the point. I shouldn't have to unlock to be easier. I want a better solution and my point is there isn't a good enough solution out there on any side. That's why Apple says no

----------

Tim Cook admitted that Apple "can do more" to be more open with their mobile OS. Don't bury the idea of quick toggles just yet.

Apple loves to steal from the jailbreak community and "Auxo" is currently one of the top tweaks and its all about quick toggles.

Auxo is amazing I just want better integration with the lock screen

Carouser
Jun 8, 2013, 03:55 PM
I vote for allowing each user to enable or disable this feature. It'll be there if they want it, and it won't be there if they don't.

I vote for Android retaining this feature and Apple not bothering. Android will be there for those who want it, and Apple will be there if they don't.

cynics
Jun 8, 2013, 04:05 PM
Lol I wish I didn't have to worry about it but 115-118 degrees isn't easy to work in. Not much around sweat in the desert it's what prob affects it the most I think because its warm n right on my thigh as I walk.

The notification center widget is great but if I want my Bluetooth on quick I want to do it through the lock screen. Like that's the point. I shouldn't have to unlock to be easier. I want a better solution and my point is there isn't a good enough solution out there on any side. That's why Apple says no

----------



Auxo is amazing I just want better integration with the lock screen

It could be accessed from the notification center ON the lock screen....ooohhhhhh!!! Lol

----------

I vote for all other smartphone manufacturers retaining this feature and Apple not bothering. All other smartphone manufacturers will be there for those who want it, and Apple will be there if they don't.

Fixed for you :)

Bearxor
Jun 8, 2013, 05:46 PM
The phone should be used, not managed

I love this quote. Its exactly why I feel like quick toggles are bandaids for a problem, not a solution to the problem itself. The same way I feel about a notification center.