WTC : more bad ideas

[cr2sh]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/849103.asp?0cb=-412102247

Despite their best efforts the architects have again failed to come up with anything that DOESN'T SUCK . These are seriously bad designs, worse than last time. One design calls for an ampitheatre with approximately 2880seats... one for each victim in the attack.. is it just me, or is that SERIOUSLY F*CKD UP. I'm not sure what the design should look like, but if these assclowns don't start trying harder, I WILL get my mega-box of 300 crayons (including two shades of gold!) out and show them what's up.

If the Macrumors gang can solve internet fraud, can't we come up with a good design?I apologize if there's an existing post on this subject, but I didn't see it.

[alex_ant]

I have to agree about the amphitheatre idea. Very bad. I wish they would just build something simple, or not build anything at all, and be done with it. Instead they have to go all out with their hyperemotional death-worship and it's like if they don't include enough gooey sentimentality and awkward Oklahoma City-style symbolistic bull****, people will forget what happened. But what they don't realize is that no matter what they put there, or don't put there, people will never forget. I wish they would save the garish plaques and "veils of mourning" etc. for an offsite museum.

(Not to mention that most of those designs are butt ugly.)

[jelloshotsrule]

how about the 2000+ foot building... i mean, come on.

let's fuel the fire some more eh?

i agree, let the memorial be offsite, and let's make it nice.

i think a park would be cool, just because parks are rare in nyc. but there is battery park right near there... and i suppose that given the lost office space... id on'tknow

but 2000 feet.... haha. smart. really smart.

ps. assclowns... classic.

[Mr. Anderson]

Yeah, those designs suck - what's up with the number sign building and the shell that replaces the foot print? What were they thinking? The others are just too weird, non of them retain the elegance of the original WTC.

Recognizing the victims is one thing, here they seem to be taking it too far. Its my opinion that the architects are letting their emotions get the better of them - they need to step back from the whole WTC tragedy and rethink what they're doing. Its very simple to have a memorial that is part of a park or public area, bringing the tragedy down to human scale and not incorporating it directly to the rebuilt designs.

D

[Rower_CPU]

I thought the 2 lights they had were great and should have been kept...granted, you only get the full effect at night...

But hey, it's a good start.

[Chomolungma]

Some of you are suggesting that a taller building invites more trouble. I can see logic to this, but I see you as being whip by a school bully. I see that you are afraid of him.

[Thirteenva]

As a new yorker i like the idea of having another building or buildings as tall as the world trade center. Not only to restore our sky line but as a huge monument that we will move on UNDETERRED by these terrible acts of violence. The buildings would be a symbol of our resolve.

What fire would tall buildings fuel?? If terrorists want to attack again they will. Tall buildings are not an invitation. Had the WT towers not been there then another target would have been chosen.

I think alot of new yorkers feel the same way. A majority are pushing to have taller buildings built in there place. Both to help restore the hole in our skyline and the hole in our hearts. In addition to a memorial the rebuilding of the site will also honor the victims and as new yorkers they may have felt the same way.

Last time i looked at the cnn poll the one with the two tall buildings had the most votes.

I'm not particularly crazy about these plans they are better than the first set but i'm still not crazy about them. I say put back the towers just not in the same spots. Put them opposite of where the foot prints are..

Just my one sided opinion on it...

[Mr. Anderson]

I think we should take this opportunity to make a the tallest buildings in the world again, but do it high enough that it will remain the record for more than a decade.

And place SAM launchers on the roof and on surrounding buildings, maybe even build a giant 'Laser' cannon or two. That way we can shoot the lasers straight up like they did - really thought that was classy - and possibly even see it in the daylight at times. :D

D

[jrv3034]

Originally posted by Chomolungma
Some of you are suggesting that a taller building invites more trouble. I can see logic to this, but I see you as being whip by a school bully. I see that you are afraid of him.

True, but I still wouldn't want my office in the 97th story of ANY building. Just too plain scary.

I dont think they should build something tall. The most recent talks have been to turn the lower Manhattan area into more of a cultural center than office space. I think this would be a great idea. I actually worked next to the WTC up until August 2001 (yeah, I was really lucky) and that area was in serious need of rich cultural life. It was like a ghost town when not in business hours. If any good can come from this horrible tragedy, then let it be by celebrating the joys of life in a cultural center devoted to the arts, sciences, and humanities. A nice theater for opera, jazz and ballet performances, coupled with some art galleries and public park areas would be greatly appreciated. Have a memorial, but don't let it be ALL a memorial. It's not healthy. We have to move on.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by jrv3034


True, but I still wouldn't want my office in the 97th story of ANY building. Just too plain scary.


Not for everyone, I don't think. I'd be happy to have a window on the 97th floor. I'd also take up sky diving and have a parachute in my office just in case....:D

D

[mcrain]

What bothers me most is that the biggest complaint about the WTC complex was the interference it had with the local streets. This interference, according to a whole bunch of specials on the WTC, really hurt the local economy.

I have no problem with big buildings, pools, memorials, etc... but every one of those plans ignores the street level community.

What they ought to do is create a series of buildings/memorials that restores the street level community and access. (They closed a bunch of streets originally, they should reopen - can you imagine the value and commerce that would occur on those new streets?)

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by dukestreet
I think we should take this opportunity to make a the tallest buildings in the world again, but do it high enough that it will remain the record for more than a decade.

And place SAM launchers on the roof and on surrounding buildings, maybe even build a giant 'Laser' cannon or two. That way we can shoot the lasers straight up like they did - really thought that was classy - and possibly even see it in the daylight at times. :D

alex. how'd you get dukestreet's password? awesome!

ha

yeah, let's go ahead and let our pride get in the way and build something that is automatically a target... ok.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by mcrain

What they ought to do is create a series of buildings/memorials that restores the street level community and access. (They closed a bunch of streets originally, they should reopen - can you imagine the value and commerce that would occur on those new streets?)

Well, you'd be catering to the people in the building, 10s of thousands alone on a daily basis - that's not a bad thing. I agree though the you have to take into account everything around the area and not make any assumptions.

Here in Old Town, the Patent and Trade Office is moving up the street on Duke St. from Crystal City. That's bringing in thousands of new people and their cars to an already congested area. Its not going to be a good thing, glad I don't live on that side of town any more.

I can't imagine what an order or two of magnitude more of people would be like.

D

[AmbitiousLemon]

i am quite surprised. did any of you actually take a look at the designs? i think most of them look very nice, and none of them are completed designs yet. a very good start in my opinion.

for a better link check out cnn (who uses msn anyway?)

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/18/wtc.rebuilding/index.html

the 'what's related' section has lots of great pictures of the various designs.

and take a good look because many of the suggestions peope have made here have actually been taken into consideration in the designs. before you start complaining and saying how stupid the designs are TRY LOOKING AT THEM! most of the designs incorporate parks and/or cultural centers.

being a biologist i like the helix design the most, but im biased.

i think it is important to rebuild. i am not a patriot, i despise war, i dont think the terrorists were evil or cowards. but rebuilding needs to happen, and i think these designs are a great start at a final design.

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
before you start complaining and saying how stupid the designs are TRY LOOKING AT THEM!

I found the webpage, viewed the sites, constructed thoughts about them, came to macrumors and started this thread because I HAVE LOOKED AT THEM! :rolleyes:

[Mr. Anderson]

I have to agree with what I said before, and I did look at all of them an waited for each animation to finish. I spent 3 years as an architecture student before moving on to computer engineering, so I have a more than average understanding of form, space and architecture than most.

But its all personal opinion, anyway.

D

[e-coli]

I find it curious that they didn't invite Frank Gehry, Stanly Tigerman, or Toyo Ito to participate. They're the most prominant architects of the age.

...but there's so many otheres that are doing such amazing work these days. The new proposals are such a disapointment, IMHO.

[Chomolungma]

Originally posted by jrv3034


True, but I still wouldn't want my office in the 97th story of ANY building. Just too plain scary.


I believe the ability to gauge and access risk is a true measure of one's IQ.:cool:

[Chomolungma]

Originally posted by Chomolungma


I believe the ability to gauge and access** risk is a true measure of one's IQ.:cool:

**assess LOL

[lmalave]

Keep in mind that the designs were not completely freefrom but subject to a whole set of constraints imposed by the Lower Manhattan Development Commission (like 10 million sq ft of office space, 1 million sq ft of retail space, cultural space, memorial space, transit hub, etc.).

Personally, I was immediately struck by the United Architects design:

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/us/0212/wtc.site.rebuild/content.5.1.html

A little outlandish? Sure, but I think our fair city of Gotham could use a more modern Gehry-esque touch (I mean, c'mon the tallest building here now is the 1932 vintage Empire State Building!). I like how the tallest tower would be the tallest building in the world, and I like the interconnectedness of all the buildings, especially the "Sky Park" that goes accross all the buildings. Very, very cool and truly awe inspiring if it ever gets built.

I think New York NEEDS to look to the future and make a statement about its resilience. I don't want to see another boring set of twin towers - that' been done. I really want to see a powerful, grand vision that will stand as an immortal monument to the spirit of New York City and its status as a cultural, artistic, financial, and thought leader.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by lmalave

A little outlandish? Sure, but I think our fair city of Gotham could use a more modern Gehry-esque touch (I mean, c'mon the tallest building here now is the 1932 vintage Empire State Building!). I like how the tallest tower would be the tallest building in the world, and I like the interconnectedness of all the buildings, especially the "Sky Park" that goes accross all the buildings. Very, very cool and truly awe inspiring if it ever gets built.

Its one of the better ones of the group - not saying much, but it looks to be to tight and crowded - I really think a dramatic gesture of grandure would be great, just do it with style and class and think about how it will change the skyline. Those buildings don't have cohesiveness except their facades. Doesn't work for me.

The old WTC really 'fit' in the city - these don't.

D

[lmalave]

Originally posted by dukestreet


Its one of the better ones of the group - not saying much, but it looks to be to tight and crowded - I really think a dramatic gesture of grandure would be great, just do it with style and class and think about how it will change the skyline. Those buildings don't have cohesiveness except their facades. Doesn't work for me.

The old WTC really 'fit' in the city - these don't.

D

Ummm - no it didn't you were just used to it. When the twin towers were built they were almost universally derided as an ugly monstrosity that didn't fit into the neighborhood . And the whole setup - with a huge, sterile plaza interrupting traffic flow - does not fit the pattern of ANY other buildings in this city, not even Rockefeller Center.

[Chomolungma]

Originally posted by dukestreet


The old WTC really 'fit' in the city - these don't.

D

Does it, or are we just used to it? Frankly, I thought the twin towers were architexturely dull (two rectangular cylinders). Nevertheless, the ride to the top was a thrill and the view spectacular, when I visited the place Sept. 2000.

[springscansing]

I think you people are insane. On the CNN site, the proposals by Daniel Libeskind and Foster and Partners are both astounding (groups 1 and 2). As someone who will be living in the city soon, I'd be very happy if either one of those was built and used as office space.

[hvfsl]

I think there should be two towers that are even taller than before, one of the Far Eastern countries already have twin towers that are taller than the NY WTC used to be and they are still standing. They will not get blown up again if they are protected well. Islamics tried to blow up the CN Tower in Canada and they did not because of good intel. It could never happen again because security is too good now.

Also how long do you think this war on terror will go on for? Bin Laden is an old man and will not live much longer. Also it seems as though Bush will wipe out most of the middle eastern countries. So this threat should hopefully be over with in 30years. Which is about how long the buildings will take to build.

[Chomolungma]

Originally posted by hvfsl
I think there should be two towers that are even taller than before, one of the Far Eastern countries already have twin towers that are taller than the NY WTC used to be and they are still standing. They will not get blown up again if they are protected well. Islamics tried to blow up the CN Tower in Canada and they did not because of good intel. It could never happen again because security is too good now.

Also how long do you think this war on terror will go on for? Bin Laden is an old man and will not live much longer. Also it seems as though Bush will wipe out most of the middle eastern countries. So this threat should hopefully be over with in 30years. Which is about how long the buildings will take to build.

The days of building tall building for height is over in this country. Indonesia and China which are emerging markets are doing this right now. To compete with them would mean for us to move backward. I feel cheap and use thinking that we should compete with China and Indoesia on this building thing. Personally, I don't mine building a tall building, but ONLY if it is beautiful and privately funded.

[cr2sh]

I'm really disgusted by the idea of building the 'tallest' for whatever reason. As if constructing the tallest building shows superiority over other countries or people. Let's come up with a good design with a space that teaches understaning and compassion and memorializes those unfortunate who died on that sad day... let's not try to prove that 'USA rocks.'

I'm much more for a single tower, out of the ashes we rise as one.

[Rower_CPU]

But how will they know our *****es are bigger than theirs if our buildings aren't taller?:confused:

[jelloshotsrule]

the "sky park" picture i liked the best

because it had a lot of open space

it also had huge huge buildings to show that our dicks are in fact still bigger

grow up. it's not about how big our buildings are. it's about how we use them. ;)

and while we continue to do terrible **** around the world, we'll be hated

of course the buildings in other countries weren't as badly targeted as it would in the US.... no one hates them as much as they hate the US.

[Mr. Anderson]

Maybe there is a little bit of being used to the idea of the old WTC and I know nothing about about the traffic flow, but I'm still sure about them being classy. Its more of a minimalistic statement.

I've noticed that there are a few occassions where some new building has very complicated or even ornate facades that look impressive close up but totally fail at a distance. That is more important as far as I'm concerned in a building as large as what they'll build.

D

[rice_web]

The only design that I have so far remotely liked, is the original design found at:

www.wtc2002.com

It's huge, simple, fits moderately well with New York, and I love the idea of the biodome.

I absolutely loathe the new designs; I find them all too complex and, well, stupid.

[lmalave]

Originally posted by rice_web
The only design that I have so far remotely liked, is the original design found at:

www.wtc2002.com

It's huge, simple, fits moderately well with New York, and I love the idea of the biodome.

I absolutely loathe the new designs; I find them all too complex and, well, stupid.

Just because you don't agree with the design sensibilities expressed in the architecture doesn't mean you have to call it "stupid". Modern architecture is more conceptual. The most acclaimed architect in the world right now is Frank Gehry (http://www.frank-gehry.com/), whose designs I suppose you would classify as "complex". Personally, I think his work is exhilirating and I really like his Guggenheim Bilbao (Spain) design, as well as his design for my alma mater's new computer science building:

http://www.cdm.lcs.mit.edu/people/psz/stata/images/dsc00002.jpg

Have a little open mindedness! I like clean designs for things I actually interact with (like computers and electronic devices), but a building facade to me is art, and can be arbitrarily visually complex. As long as the building is usable on the inside, which Gehry's designs definitely are, as well as all the WTC designs, then I don't have a problem with the complexity.

I personally don't like the design you posted a link to at all - it's too symmetric and bland for my taste (and has more of a Flash Gordon retro-future vibe to me, rather than a truly futuristicf feel). But I wouldn't call the design "stupid" - I could list many merits of the design, but it's still just not my style...

[StealthRider]

no towers, just leave it blank. the whole WTC idea sucked and brought the terrorists to NYC at least twice. just put a (SMALL) memorial there and leave it at that.

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by lmalave


Just because you don't agree with the design sensibilities expressed in the architecture doesn't mean you have to call it "stupid".
Have a little open mindedness!

Aren't you the hypocrite. He can say whatever he wants and base his name-calling on whatever he wants. I, personally, enjoy having very argumentative, emotional ideas that have no factual basis or reason. There's nothing wrong with calling it as you see it.
Whoever came up with the idea that name-calling isn't a valid form of debate, is a stupidhead. :cool:

And for the record, conceptual art does suck... architecture too. :) It does, face it.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by cr2sh


And for the record, conceptual art does suck... architecture too. :) It does, face it.

I would disagree with that one - depending on the scale of the work it can do quite well. That's where I think the WTC replacement is a problem. The scale is so huge anything too detailed looks terrible. And rice_web's link isn't any better.

I'll have to find something that I like and see what you all have to say.

D

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by dukestreet
I'll have to find something that I like and see what you all have to say.

Please do. This has to be the most active the public has ever been in any sort of early phase city planning. This is an issue that is close to the hearts of people who live on the other side of the continent, and right now the architects are failing miserably.

[TimDaddy]

Originally posted by hvfsl


Also how long do you think this war on terror will go on for? Bin Laden is an old man and will not live much longer. Also it seems as though Bush will wipe out most of the middle eastern countries. So this threat should hopefully be over with in 30years. Which is about how long the buildings will take to build.

There was terrorism before Bin Laden, and there will be terrorism after Bin Laden. And, if Bush, or anyone else for that matter, tries to "wipe out most of the middle eastern countries", there will be more terrorism than we can handle. And if he really does try to "wipe them out" then eventually there will be the threat of war from "good" countries.

But, on topic, I would like to see two towers similar to the original, only just tall enough to be the tallest in the world again for a little while. And maybe have the top floors form a pyramid shape, just to make it look more interesting. There should be a memorial at the center, but the center should not be the memorial. Also, maybe this is stupid, but why not some residential space? If people have the opportunity to live, shop, work, and entertain all in the same building, wouldn't that help traffic in the area? If I hadn't just fallen in love with and purchased my 1/4 acre slice of suburbia, I would love to live in a skyscraper in a busy city. Or, maybe they could build the two tallest log cabins in the world...

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by TimDaddy
Also, maybe this is stupid, but why not some residential space? If people have the opportunity to live, shop, work, and entertain all in the same building, wouldn't that help traffic in the area? If I hadn't just fallen in love with and purchased my 1/4 acre slice of suburbia, I would love to live in a skyscraper in a busy city. Or, maybe they could build the two tallest log cabins in the world...

most of the current designs include these types of things. as i said before, go take a look at the existing designs, despite what some of the more arrogant people in the crowd may think they are very well put together.

[cr2sh]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
despite what some of the more arrogant people in the crowd may think they are very well put together.

DELL Computers are very well put together, that doesn't mean they're any good.

Its all personal preference, mine is just as stupid as yours. I really hate the 'tallest building' mentality though. If we build it to show them we're not affraid, or show them we're superior, or show them that we're... whatever - we've done it for the wrong reason.
A few things I hate though.. buildings that join at the hip, buildings that try to resemble the old structure but in a more hip way, buildings that look like the # symbol, and buildings with domes (it'll look like ass in 10years).
:D

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
despite what some of the more arrogant people in the crowd may think they are very well put together.

Regardless of what building gets final approval and built, there will be people who hate, love it and just don't care. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So we might not agree, you don't have to make it personal.

D

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by dukestreet

So we might not agree, you don't have to make it personal.


personal? no one is making it personal here duke. i think a lot of people are drawing conclusions based on what people here are saying rather than taking a look at the designs for themselves (seeing as most of the suggestions here are represented in the designs people are deriding), so i just wanted to let them know that they should take a look at them because that actually look quite nice.

[Mr. Anderson]

Maybe the context under which they've been presented doesn't do them justice, but to me they really don't work in the space provided. Look at how the old WTC fits among the NYC skyline. I'm not saying build replicas of the old WTC, but I'd like to see something that captures the same feeling. Part of it is the space between the towers.

[mcrain]

My opinion pretty much is unimportant on this issue, but I would like to point out that at least one of the designs looks like it came straight from SimCity2000.

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by mcrain
My opinion pretty much is unimportant on this issue, but I would like to point out that at least one of the designs looks like it came straight from SimCity2000.

hahaha... out of curiosity, which one?

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by mcrain
My opinion pretty much is unimportant on this issue, but I would like to point out that at least one of the designs looks like it came straight from SimCity2000.

that's pretty bad if true - you got a pic any where?

D

[mcrain]

http://www.wtc2002.com/start.lasso

The 3 buildings in that web site remind me a lot of a building with a dome on top that was in one of the simcities, but I can't find it online, and I've got to get back to work before someone sees me scrolling through screenshots of a computergame.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
personal? no one is making it personal here duke.

you did call people arrogant. but ok


why not something that's along the height of the buildings around the space... about half the designs call for them being taller than before (if i remember correctly)..so i suppose the other half could be decent.

why not just replicate a great wonder of the world as an homage to another great sim type game... civilization?? ha

[Mr. Anderson]

ah, the domed one looks like a large phallic symbol, sorry. And its too monolithic. But I still haven't found anything I like yet.

D

[AmbitiousLemon]

well duke since you are a skilled 3d artist, and have experience in architecture why dont you model a little something for us?

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
well duke since you are a skilled 3d artist, and have experience in architecture why dont you model a little something for us?

The thought arleady crossed my mind - and since I'm going on vacation for the next 2 weeks I might have some time to do it. I've got a few things that need to be done before that, so we'll see. I'd do sketches first anyway - I might just scan those in and see what you think first.

D :D

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by dukestreet


The thought arleady crossed my mind - and since I'm going on vacation for the next 2 weeks I might have some time to do it. I've got a few things that need to be done before that, so we'll see. I'd do sketches first anyway - I might just scan those in and see what you think first.

D :D

that would be cool. i love looking at this kind of stuff. i have been wondering if maybe the reason you say all the designs suck is that you have something fairly specific in mind and none of the designs match it. i must admit, i was surprised when i saw the designs... none of them looked as i had imagined, but i found several of them worthwhile nevertheless.

[alex_ant]

I think the WTC site should be occupied by a structure that truly symbolizes American culture...

So how about a strip mall with a Wal-Mart anchor store and a really big parking lot?

[3777]

Despite all the nonsense, there is only one thing that will ever truly fill the void .....at least to a degree. They should basically find a different or better way to construct the frame, and then just rebuild the Towers, though in the opposite "footprint blocks" of where the original towers stood, and make the original footprints memorials. That's what they should do.

[jelloshotsrule]

Originally posted by alex_ant
I think the WTC site should be occupied by a structure that truly symbolizes American culture...

So how about a strip mall with a Wal-Mart anchor store and a really big parking lot?

toss in a kfc, a gap, and abercrombie and fitch, and i'm more than game

also, at least one buffet style place so that we can feed our excessiveness.

[mcrain]

Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
toss in a kfc, a gap, and abercrombie and fitch, and i'm more than game

also, at least one buffet style place so that we can feed our excessiveness.

If they want tourists... They should just put a giant casino there along with a really good brothel. I'd visit that.

[Mr. Anderson]

Originally posted by mcrain


If they want tourists... They should just put a giant casino there along with a really good brothel. I'd visit that.

looking to join the half mile high club mcrain?

After doing a little more looking into the issue, I've come to an interesting conclusion - a lot of the new designs don't fit the city because they are too big and try to over power the skyline. The old WTC was huge, but it didn't have the same effect. If you want to design something to replace it, it should be worked into the space a little more subtly.

I've got some ideas and I'll post them when I can.

D