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King Cobra
Dec 20, 2002, 07:07 PM
MP3 or WMA files in Windows XP could be hazardous to your PC. (http://www.techtv.com/news/security/story/0,24195,3412016,00.html)

According to the statement (http://www.microsoft.com/technet/treeview/?url=/technet/security/bulletin/MS02-072.asp) on Microsoft's website, a buffer overrun in the windows shell of Windows XP could let an attacker place malicious code in the attribute information of a WMA or MP3 music file.

Great time to be a Mac user with Jaguar! :p

Wes
Dec 20, 2002, 07:52 PM
This is going to be GREAT to tell my pc friends. What do they mean within the file? ID3 or somewhere else?

bobindashadows
Dec 20, 2002, 10:49 PM
72nd security alert... wow...

This is the kinda stuff that makes being a mac user wonderful!

cr2sh
Dec 21, 2002, 04:48 AM
If they're downloading illegal music they deserve what the get.

Megaquad
Dec 21, 2002, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by cr2sh
If they're downloading illegal music they deserve what the get.
Like mac users dont do that..:rolleyes:

cr2sh
Dec 21, 2002, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by Megaquad
Like mac users dont do that..:rolleyes:

No pity for the devil.

We can only hope that hackers find a way to infect mp3's so that they hurt the mac platform as well.

Stike
Dec 21, 2002, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by cr2sh


No pity for the devil.

We can only hope that hackers find a way to infect mp3's so that they hurt the mac platform as well.

Ok, so 99 % of computer users are EVIL.. LOL
Sorry, but this discussion is completley pointless.
Copy kills music, it is said. In fact, it doesnīt kill music, it just kills off the (too) big studiosīprofits.
They have been making unbeievable money during the 90ies especially. Time to tone it down a little.

Why should I shop for CDs if I can get a DVD meanwhile for the same price??
Sorry, this is a bit offtopic...

Megaquad
Dec 21, 2002, 07:07 AM
I think all those infected mp3's are put by RIAA on sharing.

Bastards! :mad:

cr2sh
Dec 21, 2002, 07:19 AM
Originally posted by Stike
Ok, so 99 % of computer users are EVIL.. LOL
Sorry, but this discussion is completley pointless.
Copy kills music, it is said. In fact, it doesnīt kill music, it just kills off the (too) big studiosīprofits.
They have been making unbeievable money during the 90ies especially. Time to tone it down a little.

If you feel the discussion is pointless, please don't post your 'facts.'

You're right.. everyone steals music, it must be okay. :rolleyes:

'They made too much money off of music that I like.. it's my right to take from them as I see fit.' That's total ************. I'm not sure where you get your 'facts' but there are lots of artists who are getting raped by Peer-to-Peer networks. With pro-audio recording equiptment getting cheaper, home studio production is on the rise, so more people are getting raped by it.

I love the your justification that its okay to steal because they're making money by producing something that you like. Can I go knock over a mac store because they've been making 'too big' profits?

cr2sh
Dec 21, 2002, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Stike
Why should I shop for CDs if I can get a DVD meanwhile for the same price??

Because the cd-player in your car will not play dvds?

barkmonster
Dec 21, 2002, 11:44 AM
Personally speaking when the Christmas number one in the UK is some "made on TV" girl band with a double A side of a song from a boy band that was number one sometime in the 90's and the hillariously ironic cover of 'sound of the underground' I think the labels SHOULD be losing money!

ANYTHING that destroys the profits of the labels that churn out this stuff is a good thing. Just make sure you support the artists that DESERVE to be there by buying their CDs and not just downloading the odd track. If a CD turns out to crap, you've not lost any money, if it's good, why would you miss the Ģ12 - Ģ15 it costs to buy the original if the mp3s prove it's worth buying ?

I object to spending the same on a CD from Linkin Park that's 30 something minutes long as I would on a CD from other artists that has not only more tracks but the album is pushing past the 70 minute mark. I object but I still paid for them.

If this security flaw really could be exploited by the RIAA doesn't that make them criminals too ?

Stike
Dec 21, 2002, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by barkmonster
...I think the labels SHOULD be losing money!

ANYTHING that destroys the profits of the labels that churn out this stuff is a good thing. Just make sure you support the artists that DESERVE to be there by buying their CDs and not just downloading the odd track.

I couldnīt have said it better. Just what I wanted to make clear - the commercialization of music has taken absurd paths, in some ways it is time to go back to the roots.
Still I buy products of artists who deserve it, and deserve the definition "artist". DVDs preferably, you get the video and the audio for alost the same price...


If this security flaw really could be exploited by the RIAA doesn't that make them criminals too ?

Sure, any use of that leak to break into a persons computer in any way is criminal. I wonder when you can designate M$ as criminal in their actions...

e-coli
Dec 21, 2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by cr2sh


No pity for the devil.

We can only hope that hackers find a way to infect mp3's so that they hurt the mac platform as well.


:rolleyes:

ignore list.

scem0
Dec 21, 2002, 03:07 PM
Sucks for me. I have a PC, though I am not particularely worried
about this.

Flickta
Dec 21, 2002, 03:07 PM
Well, going far away off topic. It is easier to buy a pirated CD here, than a licensed one. (and the price... 1/10) Still, people buy them (me too.) and will continue buying, because they really like some music. And RIAA & co, they'll surely find the way out. Patrols and immediate executions or something...

solvs
Dec 21, 2002, 04:21 PM
Is listening to the radio wrong? Is watching MTV (at least when they actually play music)? Then why is it wrong to download a song you want to listen to a couple of times? I've bought hundreds of CDs and cassettes over the years. Some of them for one or 2 songs. Then they sit on the shelf collecting dust.

You know it's not illegal to make someone a compilation cassette of songs you like. Your not selling it to them. THAT"S illegal. When I want a song, but have to pay $15-$21 to listen to it, that's outrageous. Especially when the artist is making pennies from it. I could buy the single, but that's even worse. $6 for a song I've heard on the radio a million times, and some B-side crap.

And my computers are my CD players. They have better speakers. My home CD player won't even play a lot of this stuff that's put out with copy protection, and I rarely use it. But I don't want my PC to freak out because someone has decided I can't listen to their music on what I want to use. So what do I do? I download the song from someone who broke the copy protection.

Or just played it in a regular CD player, and hooked it up to the line in on their PC.

I'm not saying stealing music is right. And definitely selling bootlegs is wrong. But to listen to a song for awhile, then to just let it sit there taking up hard drive space. Or to download something live or rare, or that you could hear on the radio all the time, don't call me a thief. The Record Companies are thieves. I'm not stealing music to sell it and take the $$$ from the artist. If I'm going to buy a CD, I will.

Someone's got to buy the CD in the first place to put it out there.

-

Generalizing is always wrong. :p

scem0
Dec 22, 2002, 02:01 AM
::::: Raises a cup to solvs::::

here here.

Just watch, pretty soon people will be arrested for cussing around
a minor, while someone else is busted for thinking about showing
pity for him :rolleyes: ;) .

cr2sh
Dec 22, 2002, 02:46 AM
If you're fine with what you're doing then please, continue to do so - but don't try to justify it through comparison or judgements of who the 'real' theif is.

Enjoy your music.

solvs
Dec 22, 2002, 08:18 AM
I wish people were stealing my songs.

And no, you've never heard of me.

Flickta
Dec 22, 2002, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by solvs
And no, you've never heard of me.

Is it possible to listen to your songs? Where? I am sure, people from the Mac community would eagerly help you and actually steal some. :)

solvs
Dec 22, 2002, 10:25 AM
I'm not even sure if I have anything recorded. I did some stuff on my own awhile back, but I have no idea where it is (I'm packing, finally moving). Do a lot of live stuff, especially locally (small town). Was gonna try the Pro stuff, but... it's a long story.

"My fiancee` left me, I got real sick, I lost my job, and my car went to shi..." (not that I'd ever do a song this bad).

It is too bad I don't sing country. Or the blues. They'd be perfect. You probably won't hear of me though, at least any time soon, until my voice heals. Almost did that American Idol thing. Kinda glad I didn't. Thank you for the interest though, made my day.

If I find something, I'll post a link to one of my web pages.

Still, no performance will beat the time I sang "Let Me Rest In Peace" from Buffy to my ex-stalker... er, girlfriend.

Classic.

Les Kern
Dec 22, 2002, 12:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by solvs
[B]Is listening to the radio wrong? Is watching MTV (at least when they actually play music)? Then why is it wrong to download a song you want to listen to a couple of times? I've bought hundreds of CDs and cassettes over the years. Some of them for one or 2 songs. Then they sit on the shelf collecting dust. [B][QUOTE]

Stealing is wrong. Stealing CD's and MP3's is also wrong. But I really don't think the music industry is looking at it right. Firstly, music has ALWAYS been stolen. I'm in my 40's and even back when the technology sucked we copied songs to cassette. The record industry, like a lot of companies and even our government, have no visionaries. They pump untold millions into litigation and anti-piracy plans, and never look at re-inventing anything. They have an opportunity, and just take the easiest way out that preserves their ungodly profits. Profits, I remind you, go mostly to them and not the artists. Making money is fine, but an old Buddhist saying goes "Never make money at the expense of others". They do, therefore I occasionally grab a song off LimeWire. Am I wrong to do this? Yes. Are PC users deserving of what they get? Yes? Will it stop? Not unless some big corporations re-think the problem through. Like Goerge Bush and the GOP wanting war to preserve our life-blood instead of developing plans for a national push for alternative energy, the record industry will sink in it's own greed.

Flickta
Dec 22, 2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by solvs
Thank you for the interest though, made my day.


Never mind. Ah, incidentally, did you know about MP3.com? You can upload your art (about car, job and all the other stuff... ) there. But to become popular you should be more alternative. No blues! Make something loud and unpleasant for the ear, and you will see! :)

solvs
Dec 22, 2002, 01:14 PM
I didn't know that, haven't been to MP3.com in years. I did find an old clip I sent to a girl I liked. Fixed it up and posted it to one of my sites:

http://home.bak.rr.com/winterchambers/erik.mp3

I don't sound that great (think I had a cold, or allergies, or something), but she liked it. I think I added the music later (as per the pauses). You should hear me sing "With Or Without You". Especially when I'm depressed. I'd do my own stuff, but most of it sucks. That, and I'm not speaking to my former guitar player.

Ah well, I'll finally be in Tacoma soon.

If you like hard stuff, you should hear me blow my voice out on "Tainted Love". Especially if I'm angry.

Flickta
Dec 22, 2002, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by solvs
I did find an old clip I sent to a girl I liked.
http://home.bak.rr.com/winterchambers/erik.mp3


Well, I'll try to dld it, though 14400 is not a proper rate for doing downloads... And with those ISP's

BTW will this clip correspond to the topic of the thread? "PC music lovers, beware..."

solvs
Dec 22, 2002, 02:59 PM
It's a tiny file. And it goes with the topic, because I don't care if it's shared (not that it would be). But then again, singing doesn't pay my bills. At least it won't screw up your computer like those bogus (alleged) RIAA files.

I still say if you buy a CD, you have every right to do with it what you want. If that means making a compilation out of it, or backing it up on your computer, that should be your right.

I do agree that bootlegging is wrong, though.

Then there's the gray area of copying them to give to someone else, or P2Ping. For some, no big deal. For others, it's an ethical dillema. And sometimes you're just a thief stealing bread from the mouthes of the poor, starving artists.

Wait, that's the Record Companies. :D

But lets not get on to that topic again.

iwantanewmac
Dec 22, 2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Stike


I couldnīt have said it better. Just what I wanted to make clear - the commercialization of music has taken absurd paths, in some ways it is time to go back to the roots.
Still I buy products of artists who deserve it, and deserve the definition "artist". DVDs preferably, you get the video and the audio for alost the same price...

[B]

Sure, any use of that leak to break into a persons computer in any way is criminal. I wonder when you can designate M$ as criminal in their actions...

And exactly what artists "deserve" to get ripped off?
Do you mind sharing that information with us?

funkywhat2
Dec 22, 2002, 07:32 PM
Am I a criminal if I go and download a song, only to buy the CD six months later because it costs so much, or lose it in my monthly (soon weekly) reformat? (Ahh, Windows 98 is wonderful!)

Isn't it criminal to not permit someone to go and do what they wish with the song, like make a mix, or put it on an MP3 player? Under that logic, one could not tape a copyrighted television program either. But we can. I can tape a show, and give it to my friend. So, what's the diference? An MP3 is hardly perfect quality, just like a tape recording of a show. And if making a perfect recording were illegal, than why can I but a DVD recorder for my Home Theater system, recodrd the DVD, and give it to a friend?

Why go after downloading music anyway? Didn't the music industery make more $ that ever last year? I can't wait to see this year's gains. How about we go after drunk drivers, or spend money on a vaccine, or give out houses to the poor? It's great when a country spends millions to appease some guys with more $ then they can handle, and I don't mean the artists. Is the main principle of government to provide for the good of the people, as in all people, not some rich guys?

I'm not saying that one should go and steal music. I do download, try out a few songs, and see if i like them. If I do (which I have always so far) then I buy the CD. Else, I lose the song in my monthly (like I said, soon weekly) reformat. No harm done, because even if I put the song on an MD or a CD, I wouldn't have bought the CD for one song. That's insane, so no one loses.

Judo
Dec 22, 2002, 09:40 PM
Well I havn't read all the posts so I could be repeating.
But personally I have no problem downloading mp3s. I'm downloading more music then ever, and discovering music I wouldn't have otherwise and I end up buyiung the cd.
I also think the major music lables suck!! Their main objective is money making, and these are the people that are exploiting the artist and consumers. I've seen in a couple of interviews with famous pop stars that touring is where they make most of their money. I find this odd considering that they sell millions upon millions of albums, which makes me think that these music lables take a hugh amount of money from the albums giving the artist a small cut which gives them a false incentive to go on tour to make money which will also push more album sales up giving the Record company more money.
And then there's those ********* music awards where they give Britany Spears Best female artist, she is not an artist she is a performer. It's all about sales!! Major record companys have ripped people off in the past to make a dollar (and I can't say for sure but I'm guessing they still do) , and now I have no problem ripping them off!!

Here's an interesting article. http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/28588.html

Support the little guy!

Having said all that, I still buy music from major labels, but I go out of my way to buy music from small lables. I just think that these major lables need to smarten up their act.

Xero
Dec 23, 2002, 12:45 AM
im sorry to burst your bubble cr2sh, but i along with plenty others im sure, arent thinking, "hmm i feel like going online and STEALING some music today." you make iit sound like people are out to screw artists when they download songs. i personally download music to discover it, and if i like it, ill buy it, because i thnk its good and that the artist deserves the money, plus the quality is ultimatly better with an original pressed cd. im not going to buy a cd to find out that i dont like it. yeah, its kind of stupid to go and download a whole album BECASUE you really like it, and never buy the music, but basically saying that mp3's are the devil is just narrow minded.

Les Kern
Dec 23, 2002, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Judo
I also think the major music lables suck!! Their main objective is money making, and these are the people that are exploiting the artist and consumers.

But they're not exploiting you, other then giving you the option to buy... and you don't have to. I agree with what you say for the most part, but justifying stealing with what you say is just convenient to fit your desire to have the music, but it's still wrong. By the same logic I should be able to go steal a Lexus because it's overpriced, and Japan gets most of the money. How DARE them make money off Americans! Just face it: You want it, you get it, then justify it later, so please just admit you're a thief. I'll go back to what I originally said: The labels should reinvent themselves, because they will never stop stealing. Gotta go, I have a date with LimeWire.

Judo
Dec 23, 2002, 06:47 AM
I think your right there Les.
I just get a little bewildered with my thoughts sometimes. I guess I do steal, but I wouldn't consider what I do ripping artists off.
Don't know why I put 'consumer' in that line come to think of it.

Hang on.
They stage these phony award shows, show these flash video clips, invade every piece of space they can with their over produced music using posters, endorsments and toys (young people are more suseptable to this kind of advertising) to get the consumer to buy the album. I don't know if I would call this exploitive, but it's kinda close to it maybe. Sucking consumers in by exposing them as much as they can, to what they want to sell (the young especialy).


I don't mean to sound like a smart a$$ with the "Hang on" comment, but the idea just popped into my head. I'll probably think it's wrong tommorow.

cr2sh
Dec 23, 2002, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by Xero
basically saying that mp3's are the devil is just narrow minded.

'no pity for the devil' is NOT saying mp3's are the devil.

Someone goes online, steals music, gets a virus, it wipes out their machine... and I'm suppossed to feel bad for them? I have no pity for the devil. I have no pity for someone who knows what he is doing is wrong and continues to do it.

Secondly, I have to take you all at your word. You download songs and if you like them you buy the cd. You don't download an entire album and then not buy it. In your case, you may be the rare exception, I can understand your point of view. You download a few songs and then buy the cd... I understand that you don't think its wrong (though I disagree), but you are a rare minority.
I lived in the dorms at Ohio State University for 3 quarters. I saw the rampant, destructive effect that p2p networks/lan and mp3s have on music sales. Thousands and thousands of students downloading ENTIRE cds off of one and other, sharing them, 1person would buy it and everyone would get a copy. You are an exception to this? Fine, but don't pretend either that it doesnt happen... it does. I see the way my sister builds cd compilations, all her favorite songs, she looks at the internet as a source for **** she'd otherwise have to buy... and you all ****ing know its that way. So many people do it, so FINE! you guys are the ****ing exception, but dont ****ing try to tell me that its justified, or its okay, or you're the exception.. because for everyone of you, there's 50 who get cable modems JUST to download illegal mp3s and everyone single one of them could find a reason why its okay for them to steal mp3's too...
as for this '"hmm i feel like going online and STEALING some music today." so the **** what? you go online and type their name into a search engine, or p2p client... that's what you're doing! you're looking for a specific song or file or artist.. so what if you don't acknowledge what you're doing... I'm sorry Xero, but ignorance or (worse yet) denial, does not make it okay either. How do you discover an artist that you've never heard of? What do you type in to a search engine to find that guy? No, you hear his song, you like it, you go online and steal italong with other of his songs... There are millions of people doing that same thing, you might be an individual, but you make up the majority. You are stealing from the artist, it doesnt matter what excuse you use....

cr2sh
Dec 23, 2002, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Judo
Sucking consumers in by exposing them as much as they can, to what they want to sell (the young especialy).

I think you have the music industry confused with big tobacco.

I cannot believe you actually blamed the music industry for producing something that the public buys. How dare they!?

solvs
Dec 23, 2002, 09:10 AM
I think everyone should go D/L as much music as they want. Then if you like an artist, and they're still around of course (a lot of the music I D/L is old stuff from bands that aren't even around anymore, or have passed on and you can't buy their stuff anywhere. Or live stuff), go see them in concert. Or buy a T-Shirt off their web site. They still won't get all the money, but it's better than nothing. You know most "artists" nowadays make money by doing advertising. Look at Britney (come on, you know you want to).

And cr2sh does have a point. Anything you D/L can screw up your computer. Just being connected to the net can screw up your computer. Macs too. Just don't call me a thief before you know where I'm coming from. Who says I'm stealing from anybody? I don't think D/Ling a song that was recorded live from a guy who died years ago is wrong. Especially if he allowed the recording to take place, but it was never for sale. Sometime not even on the radio.

Any other Nirvana/Joy Division fans out there?

At least we can agree that bootlegging is uncool. You're no better than the record companies if you're making money off of someone elses hard work. That's why I love P2P, no one makes money.

Although I guess I can admit that some do lose money, and don't deserve that.

drastik
Dec 23, 2002, 11:00 AM
The problem with major labels is price points and royalties. Your average artists makes about two bucks for every disc sold, about twelve goes to the label as profitt, the other eight or ten goes to paying everyone else involved, distributors, etc.

Consider this. Before you could download music, theonly way you had of previewing an album or even song was through what the record company released. And by release, I mean media blitz. Your average big name album has two million in marketing behind it before the first single hits the airwave. Your left to think, well, damn, I have to buy this, look at the buzz around it.

Its also worht mentioning that the artist has to ay for all that marketing, its built into the contract. In todays market, a record has to go gold before the artist makes any money at all. Pretty sucky, huh..

Now, price points: CDs are too freaking expensive, and they are getting more expensive. Now we get less music, less abilty to share it, and less availability of small names, for a bigger price point. Its infuriating to go to Tower and see CDs go for 22.95. Absurd, as the artists aren't making any more money. Media companies got it ight with DVD. Nine times out of ten I will purchase a movie on DVD over renting it. The price point is right where it should be, I feel like I'm getting value for my dollar.

Without sharing, and no abiliy to preview music besides the few CDs Tower will put in their play boxes, (also dictated by agreement with Labels, Records companies want me to shell out more money than I used to spend on cigarettes in a week to hear music that I might hate. And you can't return anything to record stores any longer.

Kind of off topic, but I worked in artist management for a while, thought I might share my insight.

Flickta
Dec 23, 2002, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by solvs
It's a tiny file. And it goes with the topic, because I don't care if it's shared (not that it would be). But then again, singing doesn't pay my bills. At least it won't screw up your computer like those bogus (alleged) RIAA files.


Yeah, it didn't screw it. Well, both of them. Thanks, now I have a nice example of what I'll never be capable of - singing. :(

jettredmont
Dec 23, 2002, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by solvs
Is listening to the radio wrong? Is watching MTV (at least when they actually play music)? Then why is it wrong to download a song you want to listen to a couple of times?


The radio station pays a fee to ASCAP and Henry Fox Agency (the RIAA "front" agency for handling disbursment of replay fees to copyright holders) or the individual label promoting the song if that label is not one of the five RIAA labels. MTV does the same. In exchange for this fee, they have a license to broadcast (broadcast == make available to multiple parties).

I seriously doubt that the gnutella user you are downloading from is paying ASCAP a broadcast fee or has a license to distribute said music. I further doubt that you have the same license when you are broadcasting said music to anyone that asks on gnutella (or whichever music network is your favorite). That is why downloading music is different.

I've bought hundreds of CDs and cassettes over the years. Some of them for one or 2 songs. Then they sit on the shelf collecting dust.

Solution 1: sell them to a used CD store or collector.

Solution 2: learn to be a bit more demanding in what music you buy. If a CD with 2 "good" songs is not worth $15 or so, don't buy it, and wait until you know the CD has enough songs you like before handing over your hard-earned money!

Personally, I tend to enjoy the "off" tracks of an album - those that would never make it on radio - far more than the "hit singles". So of course any CD purchase is a guessing game as to what is going to be worth it and what is not. But having been at it for a few ( :) ) years, I've found many ways to increase my chances of buying CDs I'll like, from talking with friends to reading reviews online. As a result, I've spent probably $200 on CDs in the past year, and I'd value my years' collection as worth far more to me than that.

You know it's not illegal to make someone a compilation cassette of songs you like. Your not selling it to them. THAT"S illegal.

Actually, making someone a compilation cassette is not handled by "fair use" and is a copyright violation (which is illegal). It has been ignored by the recording industry for so long one could make the case that lack of enforcement has given the impression that it is an allowed practice, however.

No money has to change hands for a copyright violation to occur. When money changes hands, you enter into the criminal instead of civil litigation realm, but either way you are still talking about a violation of someone else's copyright, and hence an illegal act (copyright law is established in the US Constitution; this is not a "minor" ill-considered law).

When I want a song, but have to pay $15-$21 to listen to it, that's outrageous.

Solution 1: Don't buy it.

Solution 2: Learn to like music you can afford.

Dude, it's freakin entertainment! It's not an inalienable right! If you can't afford to buy every CD the day it comes out, then you need to learn how to either make more money or how to live without all the latest CDs spinning in your mega changer!

Solution 3 (being generous): wait until the songs you really like are all put together on a "year's best" compilation CD. I mean, if you just really like the "hits" then I see no reason other than insatiable impatience to buy whole CDs at all. Just wait until the 2 "good" songs on each of the 25 CDs you would have bought that year are put onto 2-3 compilation discs and buy them instead. (ob. Mac relationship: then spend the money you "saved" on a new iPod!)

Especially when the artist is making pennies from it.

Sounds like the artist made a bad deal. And I do agree that there is a whole industry out there built on blindsiding naive hopefuls, but "sharing" music doesn't fix anything. Like if you go to a restaurant and get really good service but find out the waitress makes next to nothing, you don't solve anything by skipping out without paying. If you really feel the artist is getting a raw deal, buy the CD from the recording company if you want it (or skip it altogether if the product isn't worth your money), then send the artist a check as a "tip".

I could buy the single, but that's even worse. $6 for a song I've heard on the radio a million times, and some B-side crap.

Again, if the song isn't worth the money for which the store is selling it, DON'T BUY IT!

That still doesn't give you the right to violate copyright.

And my computers are my CD players. They have better speakers. My home CD player won't even play a lot of this stuff that's put out with copy protection, and I rarely use it. But I don't want my PC to freak out because someone has decided I can't listen to their music on what I want to use. So what do I do? I download the song from someone who broke the copy protection.

Solution 1: Don't buy copy-protected music.

Solution 2: If you buy music that is copy-protected, return it as "defective" (which it is, if it was labeled with the Compact Disk Audio" trademark; all current copy protection schemes violate the terms of that trademark label).

Or just played it in a regular CD player, and hooked it up to the line in on their PC.

I'm not saying stealing music is right. And definitely selling bootlegs is wrong. But to listen to a song for awhile, then to just let it sit there taking up hard drive space. Or to download something live or rare, or that you could hear on the radio all the time, don't call me a thief. The Record Companies are thieves. I'm not stealing music to sell it and take the $$$ from the artist. If I'm going to buy a CD, I will.

First, copyright violation is not theft in any legal sense of the word, and the RIAA's "pirates" campaign is misguided to say the least. If you can listen to a song on the radio any time, then you don't need it on your computer, do you? And if the song is just sitting on your drive unplayed, there's no reason not to just delete it, is there?


Someone's got to buy the CD in the first place to put it out there.


Yeah, that's a consolation. 1 CD @ $15 - 1 CD Production Costs @ $1Million min ... almost an even break, that is!

jettredmont
Dec 23, 2002, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by crazy_will
Am I a criminal if I go and download a song, only to buy the CD six months later because it costs so much, or lose it in my monthly (soon weekly) reformat? (Ahh, Windows 98 is wonderful!)


If you need the music "now" and there is a legitimate and legal way to get the music "now" then you should buy it now. If you can wait six months to buy it, then do wait six months to buy it on sale.


Isn't it criminal to not permit someone to go and do what they wish with the song, like make a mix, or put it on an MP3 player?

That is neither illegal nor unethical. Time- and format-shifting are called "fair use". So long as (1) the shifted contents are not broadcast or transfered to other people and (2) the


Under that logic, one could not tape a copyrighted television program either. But we can. I can tape a show, [quote]

Quite true ...

[quote]
and give it to my friend.


But then that's technically illegal (although a "blind eye" has been cast towards such casual sharing over the years, and a case might easily be made that a lack of dilligence in pursuing such activity over such a long period of time has effectively negated the "industries" disallowance of that activity.


So, what's the diference?


No difference at all. The "line" is not in the format or device used, but in the fact that you are handing over "your" recording to one (implicitly allowed historically) or many (explicitly disallowed historically, and supported by several court cases over the years) other people.


An MP3 is hardly perfect quality, just like a tape recording of a show. And if making a perfect recording were illegal, than why can I but a DVD recorder for my Home Theater system, recodrd the DVD, and give it to a friend?


The perfection of the recording and ability to copy it are practical concerns, but do not differentiate between proper and improper activity. Wrong tree. Stop barking.


Why go after downloading music anyway? Didn't the music industery make more $ that ever last year? I can't wait to see this year's gains. How about we go after drunk drivers, or spend money on a vaccine, or give out houses to the poor? It's great when a country spends millions to appease some guys with more $ then they can handle, and I don't mean the artists. Is the main principle of government to provide for the good of the people, as in all people, not some rich guys?


I agree. The RIAA and MPAA are shooting themselves in their feet by not embracing technology. Who are we, then, to save them? Will you weep when they die?

As for the congressional activities they're buying, that's wrong and I'm completely against it. But you can't make these dolts see a reasonable business model. Downloading an sharing copyrighted music does nothing to help the situation, just like it does nothing to bring about world peace and an end to hunger and save the whales.


I'm not saying that one should go and steal music. I do download, try out a few songs, and see if i like them. If I do (which I have always so far) then I buy the CD. Else, I lose the song in my monthly (like I said, soon weekly) reformat. No harm done, because even if I put the song on an MD or a CD, I wouldn't have bought the CD for one song. That's insane, so no one loses.

This is how I would hope the RIAA would do things, quite true. And I have done this as well (sampled multiple tracks from a CD to see if I liked it when reviews were inconclusive). A happy customer is never your enemy, and the industry needs to learn this.

But, strictly speaking, this is illegal. Don't claim it is anything but.

Also, lose the "I wouldn't have bought the CD for one song" argument. Let's see ... the one song is not worth $15, but it is worth compromising your integrity to obtain? No, you won't be sent to jail for one song, but is it worth your dignity?

jettredmont
Dec 23, 2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by drastik
Consider this. Before you could download music, theonly way you had of previewing an album or even song was through what the record company released. And by release, I mean media blitz.

You have never heard of reviews?

Do you have any friends? Get six of you together with reasonably like tastes in music. Buy a CD that sounds promising (or even one that doesn't - take a chance!) and pass it around. The guy that bought the CD has first chance to keep it (and anyone else who likes it can get their own copy with the full knowledge that they'll like it when they get it home). If no one likes it, toss it (sell it to a used CD store) and take the loss. This divides your "discovery" costs amongst however many people you can get into the "circle". If you can't collectively get one in six "winners" then you all should just give up on listening to music.

This is how the college dorms used to work before downloading: one person would buy a new CD. Everyone would hear it as they visitted this guy's room (assuming he was popular) or walked by said room (assuming he played his music at a reasonable level which transmits through dorm walls as though they were paper). If people liked the CD, others would buy it. If the guy who bought it didn't like it, it would get passed around until someone was found who either liked it or was so disgusted with it that they threw it in the garbage.

Heck, that's pretty much how non-buttoned-down workplaces worked before downloading too.

And, yes, of course, people would make tapes off the disk, but you know what? My first year out of school I replaced all those copied tapes with the originals because the copies were relatively crappy and falling apart by then. Hey, not what the RIAA would like us to do, but a heck of a lot better for them than what I see coming out of dorm rooms these days.

So, to counter your argument: downloading is not the "only" way to find out about CDs without everyone buying every CD. It's not even the best.

funkywhat2
Dec 23, 2002, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont

Also, lose the "I wouldn't have bought the CD for one song" argument. Let's see ... the one song is not worth $15, but it is worth compromising your integrity to obtain? No, you won't be sent to jail for one song, but is it worth your dignity?

Yes, it is.

Zion Grail
Dec 25, 2002, 09:26 PM
Back in June I resolved to only buy independant music and electronics not made by an RIAA member.

I haven't looked back.

To me, the RIAA is 10x as evil as MS.

Les Kern
Dec 25, 2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by jettredmont


You have never heard of reviews?

Buy a CD that sounds promising (or even one that doesn't - take a chance!) and pass it around.

How about this:
1. Listen to the radio
2. Make your OWN music. Pro-Tools, Reason, whatever. I happen to play the guitar.
And reviews? Hate them and usually disagree... except in that case of Ebert for the movies. Music to entirely too personal for anyone to even suggest what's "good" whatever that means.
So how to buy...
Like I said before, the big labels like anti-pirating technology over a vision, and a solution. I am certainly not smart enough to come up with a plan, but how about a "supersite" where genre's are catagorized, you listen to the WHOLE song in a heavily compressed state (i.e. "lousy") or part of a song in CD-quality. Click what you like, SINGLES or ALBUMS, and have them send a CD. I think something like this CD-ordering was tried. Just an idea. Lucky for me I don't have to worry about it.
Gotta go... LimeWire just finished downloading the 12 different versions of "Tainted Love" I wanted.
Sheesh.

solvs
Dec 26, 2002, 11:35 PM
Go ahead and take the moral high road. I don't blame you, and still agree that making a profit from another persons hard work makes you as bad as the record companies. I won't try to defend my theivery. I guess I'm no better than those who get CDs with their 5 finger discounts.

Now excuse me while I go D/L some Mahalia Jackson songs that are impossible to find ANYWHERE else (believe me, I've tried).

I'm sure she and Kurt Cobain are spinning in their graves knowing that those record companies are losing SO much money off of their talent.

cr2sh
Dec 27, 2002, 01:47 AM
Originally posted by solvs
Now excuse me while I go D/L some Mahalia Jackson songs that are impossible to find ANYWHERE else (believe me, I've tried).

I'm sure she and Kurt Cobain are spinning in their graves knowing that those record companies are losing SO much money off of their talent.

Fine, point out two exceptions.. there exist many excuses.

You're going to do what youwant to do and that's fine. I understand that sometimes albums or tracks are VERY hard to find, near impossible and it is much easier to just take it, its there, and no one will stop and only you will know... why not take it? There's no consequence for doing it, so it must be okay. It doesn't really matter anyways.... or does it? You're the only one you have to answer to.

As for those PC users who are stealing music.... now there are consequences.

cr2sh
Dec 27, 2002, 01:54 AM
On a side note...

I was on Campus yesterday and I walked past a used cd store called CD WAREHOUSE.. they do a very high volume of used cd sales. They had signs plastered in the windows that declared:

BUY IT!
BURN IT!
SELL IT!

Obviously, advocating theft from the artist on a grand scale. Buying used cds, burning a copy, and selling it back to the store, so that the process can be repeated.
In my younger days I would go in there and order Bjork cds, it wasn't a bad shop... but I will never shop there again.