French riots

[LethalWolfe]

Maybe I missed it, but has there been a thread on the riots in France? If not, why not?
Link (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/08/france.riots/index.html)


Lethal

[Flying Llama]

Hmm, that's suprising there was no thread on it already...
These riots are sad, I wish there were some way to work it out peacefully. :(

llama

[zimv20]

The prime minister said the French employment agency would focus on 239 hot zones to help provide jobs for 1.5 million people. France's national unemployment rate is about 10 percent, but in areas hit by rioting the level is nearer 40 percent.

He said money will be spent to provide apprenticeships for students 14 years old and older who want to leave school. But he stressed the program will allow those young people to go back to school to gain the knowledge they need to succeed better at the jobs.

In addition, said de Villepin, funds will be channeled toward providing 100,000 scholarships as well as providing better access to upper-level colleges and universities.

To entice people off state subsidies and back to work, de Villepin said, unemployed workers will get 1,000 euros plus a monthly supplement to go back to jobs.

De Villepin announced the creation of an agency for "social cohesion" which will go into riot zones, be in direct contact with mayors and local officials, and provide programs to deal with hot-button issues like joblessness and discrimination.

In addition, he announced that local associations, such as civic and religious groups, would receive 100,000 euros for outreach programs.

i love it! the french respond to social unrest by seeking to cure the underlying problems.

there's a lesson in there somewhere, even if i can't find exactly where it is.

[pseudobrit]

i love it! the french respond to social unrest by seeking to cure the underlying problems.

there's a lesson in there somewhere, even if i can't find exactly where it is.

Oh, oh! I know! The French are pussies who operate on appeasement policies at every turn.

We all know the way to quell urban violence is to send in armed forces with live rounds. Or introduce crack cocaine to the community so they stick to killing each other.

[tristan]

Well, so far the French seem fairly ineffective at handling the riots. I'm very surprised that it took so long for them to declare a curfew.

[zimv20]

We all know the way to quell urban violence is to send in armed forces with live rounds.
what about establishing 'riot zones'?

[miloblithe]

Or hiring KBR.

[Ugg]

Oh, oh! I know! The French are pussies who operate on appeasement policies at every turn.

We all know the way to quell urban violence is to send in armed forces with live rounds. Or introduce crack cocaine to the community so they stick to killing each other.

Where would we be without your sarcasm!

The French dont even know how many muslims or other ethnic minorities live in France because it is illegal to collect that information due to the secular nature of the country. In an ideal world, it would be great if it worked but lets face it, the French discriminate just as much as any other country does and ignoring the reality isnt helping anyone.

These kids need jobs that arent and wont be forthcoming in the current economic climate. Theyve mostly been shoved into the bainlieus and left to rot, I challenge you to find the positives in the immigrant populations of Western Europe, Im sure they are there theyre just hard to find.

One of the biggest threats to the pursuit of happiness in Europe, as shown only too clearly by the London bombings, is that the disaffected are turning towards the preachers of hate. The high birth rate amongst immigrants in contrast to the low birth rate amongst ethnic French doesnt help either.

The Saudis have supposedly invested over a billion USD in and around Sarajevo, the bulk of the money has gone to build 158 mosques and to provide training for the imams and to build schools for kids who mostly have no hope of a meaningful future inside BiH. Im not convinced that the Sauds are doing this strictly out of humanitarian concern.

The problem is multi faceted and has only been dealt with superficially over the last few decades and the recent violence is truly an indication of how poorly it has been addressed.

[LethalWolfe]

I just can't believe the riots have gone on for so long (nearly 2wks so far). I mean, a day or so of reactionary riots is one thing (like the King riots in LA), but something that lasts this long has to turn premeditated and organized at some point. Even what sparked the riots seems more like a convenient excuse and not something "riot worthy" (two kids of "North African decent" thought police were following them so they hid in a power substation and got electrocuted). I guess that just goes to show how bad things were if something like this ignited that powder keg.

Was the rioting just that massive or is France just not equipped to handle such an even?

Of course, w/the national unemployment rate at 10% (and up to 40% in "riot zones") there seem to be a lot pissed off people w/a lot of time on their hands.

Here is a link to a Time article that goes into more depth than the link in my OP. Link (http://www.time.com/time/europe/html/051114/story.html)

I'd love to hear from any of the European posters that might have more insight into this. I'd heard about the racial problems in France, but I didn't think they were this explosive.


Lethal

[tristan]

My guess, knowing what I know about France and Europe (I studied there briefly) is that they've set up a class system and put the immigrants at the bottom, and they keep them there through a combination of housing, education, and job discrimination. I don't know for sure, just a guess based on some attitudes I've seen there. Probably not very different than what happened here in the US in the 50s, and still goes on today to some extent.

[dejo]

To entice people off state subsidies and back to work, de Villepin said, unemployed workers will get 1,000 euros plus a monthly supplement to go back to jobs.

Sounds to me like the cause of the high unemployment is not a lack of jobs to be had but rather the "convenience" of state subsidies.

[skunk]

Also, it must be said that the French economy is in the tank, so jobs are not plentiful.

[takao]

Was the rioting just that massive or is France just not equipped to handle such an even?

equipment: i'm pretty sure the french police is schooled/equipped enough for anti-riot.. in fact the french anti riot police squads have a repuation of not really hesitating if you know what i mean ;)

I'd love to hear from any of the European posters that might have more insight into this. I'd heard about the racial problems in France, but I didn't think they were this explosive.

actually prior to the riots in the last years the frnech police lost 3000 police cars to vandalism _per year_.. that's nearly 10 a day.. during this riots it jumped up to 100

the problem in france are mostly the problem with those "immigrant only" satelite cities

[LethalWolfe]

I guess decades long socioeconomic problems actively ignored by the richer, whiter powers-that-be exploding into a two week long riot just isn't as fun to talk about if there's no way to blame Bush, NeoCons or America in general. I can only imagine how long this thread would be if this happened in a major US city.

actually prior to the riots in the last years the frnech police lost 3000 police cars to vandalism _per year_.. that's nearly 10 a day.. during this riots it jumped up to 100

Holy crap. :eek:


Lethal

[pseudobrit]

I guess decades long socioeconomic problems actively ignored by the richer, whiter powers-that-be exploding into a two week long riot just isn't as fun to talk about if there's no way to blame Bush, NeoCons or America in general.

Or maybe it's not as "fun" to talk about because we're not French, it's not happening where we live and our simple concepts of "liberal" and "conservative" aren't relevant to French politics.

France is a politically conservative nation with its own set of problems to sort out. Most of us have enough trouble keeping up with the day-to-day minutiae of our own nations' happenings.

[pseudobrit]

Sounds to me like the cause of the high unemployment is not a lack of jobs to be had but rather the "convenience" of state subsidies.

Right, because the market fixes everything when you're a social Darwinist.

Leaving people with no money is a great motivator. Unless they suffer, die or resort to crime, that is. But nevermind pragmatism; let's all be idealistic capitalists.

[LethalWolfe]

Or maybe it's not as "fun" to talk about because we're not French, it's not happening where we live and our simple concepts of "liberal" and "conservative" aren't relevant to French politics.

France is a politically conservative nation with its own set of problems to sort out. Most of us have enough trouble keeping up with the day-to-day minutiae of our own nations' happenings.

Being an international board with a number of non-US residents (whom contribute regularly to US-centric discussions) on this forum I didn't think that adding a discussion about an event in another country would be an undue borden on our US residents. Isn't it a typical complaint about Americans that we are largely ignorant about things outside of our borders? Well, here is a chance to discuss a major event in another country. The riots in France weren't spawned by something that was unique to that country. I'd dare say that problems like that exist in every country to varying degrees. So it's not like it's something that we can't relate to or discuss.

The forum title is "Politics, Religion, Social Issues". Should we ask Arn to add "in America" on the end? I mean, heaven forbid we do anything but beat the same dead horse thread in and thread out down here. I think more international discussion would be nice. It would hopefully cut down on the monotony and, quite possibly, we could learn things about other countries at the same time.

And in an attempt to facilitate some OT discussion:
Do you think that the reforms mentioned by the French PM will actually happen or do you think they will end up being empty promises? And if the French PM was genuine, given the state of France's economy (which apparently isn't too hot), does France have the resources to actually follow through w/the reforms on a meaningful scale?


Lethal

[zimv20]

Being an international board with a number of non-US residents (whom contribute regularly to US-centric discussions) on this forum I didn't think that adding a discussion about an event in another country would be an undue borden on our US residents.
absolutely. for this topic, i just don't know much about it.

[takao]

update: yesterday on TV (the german one) they showed the differences between german and french anti riot squads handling violent riots:

in france they approach the rioting mass from one side, using tear gas and nonlethal rubber bullets from the beginning, to drive them away and spread them, police men are quipped with great shields and big helmets but none to little body protective gear.. this strategy is influenced by the positive attitude towards revolutions because the leaders can get away easily

i ngermany after some heavy riots in the eighties they fundamnetally changed it: (was similiar to the french tactics) they use encircling tactics now, made up of large chains of police men equipped with heavy body armor, sticks and helmets( and only sometimes shields), instead of keeping the rioting mass on distance to savely drive them away the german police is actually closing in and goes straight for the leaders of the riots

that aside they said something about the federal structure of those squads in germany: they are able to put up an emercengy team made up of 1500 anti riot policemen _anywhere_ in the republic within a certain set of hours if riots would emerge surprisingly,

[takao]

just a number i read now: last night 502 cars were set aflame (including civilian cars) through the whole country

and the worst is: today in the evening the french are going to play against the german national team in Saint Denis.. so it is expected to get bad today

[pseudobrit]

Being an international board with a number of non-US residents (whom contribute regularly to US-centric discussions) on this forum I didn't think that adding a discussion about an event in another country would be an undue borden on our US residents. Isn't it a typical complaint about Americans that we are largely ignorant about things outside of our borders? Well, here is a chance to discuss a major event in another country. The riots in France weren't spawned by something that was unique to that country. I'd dare say that problems like that exist in every country to varying degrees. So it's not like it's something that we can't relate to or discuss.

The forum title is "Politics, Religion, Social Issues". Should we ask Arn to add "in America" on the end? I mean, heaven forbid we do anything but beat the same dead horse thread in and thread out down here. I think more international discussion would be nice. It would hopefully cut down on the monotony and, quite possibly, we could learn things about other countries at the same time.

And in an attempt to facilitate some OT discussion:
Do you think that the reforms mentioned by the French PM will actually happen or do you think they will end up being empty promises? And if the French PM was genuine, given the state of France's economy (which apparently isn't too hot), does France have the resources to actually follow through w/the reforms on a meaningful scale?


Lethal

I'm not saying it's not okay to talk about French politics here, I'm just saying it's not going to be easy because of the circumstances. The fact that few people are joining in the conversation doesn't mean we give a pass to the French while if it were Bush & Co. with the same problems we'd be all over it, as you seemed to imply.

It simply means we don't have a grasp on their politics because of geography and language separation. I mean, what do you think about Norway's recent elections? Do you think their electoral system, similar in effect to ours, needs overhauled?

What do you think about the illegal "English only" stop signs in Côte St-Luc–Hampstead?

[mactastic]

I guess decades long socioeconomic problems actively ignored by the richer, whiter powers-that-be exploding into a two week long riot just isn't as fun to talk about if there's no way to blame Bush, NeoCons or America in general. I can only imagine how long this thread would be if this happened in a major US city.
I'm sorry, I didn't realize I owed you a post on this matter.

Perhaps a little less 'Poppa knows best' attitude about why we sorry little Bush-hating-peons-who-really-aren't-as-broad-minded-as-we-like-to-think-we-are insinuation thrown in for good measure would have engendered more discussion. Starting off the thread with 'why isn't this being discussed yet' is exactly why I didn't bother posting. It seemed pretty obvious to me that you were already in chastise mode from the very beginning. This post only serves to confirm my suspicions.

Notice I don't post in all threads. And others only after some significant or interesting points have been made that I feel merit a response.

Yeah, France is having problems that I don't completely understand. Should I shoot my big fat liberal mouth off with half-baked, uninformed opinion? I'm sure you'd love me to confirm for you that I'm just a liberal half-wit, with nothing to say outside of "I hate Dubya, Neo-Cons, and America".

Would that have made you happier than just sitting out waiting to see if anyone with something to say that makes sense comes along?

Seriously, stow the 'tude man.

[Blue Velvet]

'We hate France and France hates us' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0%2C16518%2C1637465%2C00.html)

The interior minister's forces, of which there are some 9,500 on duty around the country, are loathed. "They harass you, they hassle you, they insult you the whole time, ID checks now, scooter checks next. They call you ****** names," said Karim, 17. "I got caught the other week smoking on the train. OK, you shouldn't smoke on the train. But we get to Aulnay station, there are six cops waiting for us, three cars. They did the whole body search, they had me with my hands on the roof of the car. One said: 'Go back home, Arab. Screw your race'."

[Flying Llama]

The more I discover about these riots, the more I think they're necessary.

llama

[skunk]

Part of the problem is the excessively centralized nature of French authority: successive governments have undertaken huge and grandiose reconstruction schemes, but have attempted "national" solutions rather than responding to local conditions, which vary enormously. Similarly, the police implement "national" policies which fail to take account of local variations. The result in many areas has been a complete mismatch between needs and resources, and a growing number of unrecognized "hot-spots" waiting to erupt.

[solvs]

'We hate France and France hates us' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0%2C16518%2C1637465%2C00.html)
You know what's sad? I thought you were talking about Bill O'Reily when you said that. Not that I'm an expert on the French myself, but he sure seems to like to talk about something he knows nothing about. The other day he referred to them as "our enemy". I point this out because in this way he is a lot like the rest of the US. Oblivious to them and their problems, but quick to judge them based on a preconceived notion.

[tristan]

This week's Economist, which I finally received on saturday like I'm supposed to, had a lot of interesting insights on the riots. They said that integration in France was a shame, and most 2nd and 3rd generation arab and african immigrants (not just muslims) live in lousy housing and don't have jobs. It also mentioned that while in the US and UK, you can see minority faces in government and on TV (i.e. newscasters), in France it's all white. So a lot of minorities don't even consider themselves French and aren't considered French. The cops are white too. My opinion - If this was thirty years ago and in the US, you'd think "Helter Skelter" had come to pass. (Charles Manson's vision of a race riot that overwhelms conservative society.)

[skunk]

They said that integration in France was a shameThey also said it was a sham.

[WinterMute]

There is another underlying issue at work here, some extremist Muslim sections of the French population are calling for separate areas of France to be declared "Muslim-only" and to secede from France, not the first time this call has been heard.

Unfortunately they don't want to give up the State funding and utilities, they just want to stop paying taxes and being French it would seem.

There has always been a "them and us" mentality about French political doctrines, as previously noted, there are almost no ethnic persons in higher office in the whole country, and with Muslims immigrants alone making over 10% of the population, it's easy to see why the french political hierarchy is so out of touch.

No French cabinet official would be seen shaking Muslim hands as Gordon Brown did here last year to help ethnic integration and calm friction (he was also protecting his political ass too, but he is a politician after all...)

There have also been riots in Belgium and Denmark I believe, although someone may want to correct me on the details of that.

[Nickygoat]

No French cabinet official would be seen shaking Muslim hands as Gordon Brown did here last year to help ethnic integration and calm friction (he was also protecting his political ass too, but he is a politician after all...)

There have also been riots in Belgium and Denmark I believe, although someone may want to correct me on the details of that.
I thought it was Jack Straw in Blackburn who was doing that?
The riots in Århus aren't really related to the French riots. The Jylannds-Posten (http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=3362504/) (a Danish paper) ran a series of satirical cartoons about the prophet, which had people up in arms. The papers response, and that of a lot Danes, was "you're living here you should be able to accept critiscism." There is a lot of rascism in Denmark, but there are fewer barriers to work, and integration than there are in France.
Interesting piece in the Sunday Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1869459,00.html) saying that Le Pen is rubbing his hands with glee at these riots.

[WinterMute]

I thought it was Jack Straw in Blackburn who was doing that?
The riots in Århus aren't really related to the French riots. The Jylannds-Posten (http://www.jp.dk/english_news/artikel:aid=3362504/) (a Danish paper) ran a series of satirical cartoons about the prophet, which had people up in arms. The papers response, and that of a lot Danes, was "you're living here you should be able to accept critiscism." There is a lot of rascism in Denmark, but there are fewer barriers to work, and integration than there are in France.
Interesting piece in the Sunday Times (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-1869459,00.html) saying that Le Pen is rubbing his hands with glee at these riots.

That'll be the fellow, all the bloody same these politicos...

This plays pretty strongly to Le Penn's anti-immigration stance, he'll see it as an opportunity to rabble-rouse in the French under-classes.

[redeye be]

There has been a lot of media coverage about the French riots here in Belgium. There have not been any riots here in Belgium so far (related to this issue ;)) but i'll get to that later.

The main issue (in the beginning) in France seems to be related to the banlieus, the infamous satellite cities. 50 Year old apartment blocks, originally built for French families returning from the colonies. They were an emergency solution, now used as a cheaper way of tucking away unwanted (yes, a lot of work still needs to be done about integration) people.
A parallel world emerged with their own rules and laws. With a strong feeling of loyalty amongst the inhibitors. This loyalty we also see here in Brussels, if you have a problem with one, there will be more to back him/her up.

An idiot, but bad, incident (the 2 boys running away from the cops ; they were - or had been - stealing a scooter) lit the fire. A similar thing happened here in Brussels a few years ago when a cop shot someone who tried to run from the cops (after trying to hit them with a car). A lot of ambiance in the city...

The riots themselves have more to do (IMHO) with youngsters looking for adrenaline, and gangs trying to show their presence/strength. If you look at the ages of the rioters that were arrested, most, or all of them under age. Making it almost impossible to really do something about it (through justice). The people behind the youngsters, the ones that tell them or fire them up to do the things they do don't get caught, they don't show themselves on the streets during these riots.

I must correct myself here, it looks like i'm saying it's all bad guys that do this for fun. There is a big problem with integration (same here in Brussels): crappy housing, lousy education, no jobs. It's really hard for people in this situation to crawl out of it all by themselves.

Here in Belgium we only had some copycats burning cars, nothing as organized or big as in France. I think maybe 50-70 (last night 30) cars have been lit - and burned out (started last week - all over Belgium). Some of these are probably kids looking for some news coverage, at least one car was lit by 2 drunk native belgians in their 30's, trying to burn a car and putting the blame on immigrants.
Yesterday evening a riot was "planned" in the center of Brussels, 50 possible rioters were arrested by a massive police force.
I feel quite safe though. Most people here really don't want to go through all this trouble, and a lot - if not most, or practically all - of immigrants (all generations) strongly oppose and work against possible riots/rioters. Social workers are also very present to talk to people with problems

I think the bottom line is these people are reacting to a society which does not want to include them. Why should they bother how it works out.
I don't blame them, but they made their point. They should now stop the violence and keep the issues on the political agenda in a peaceful way.
Which is very important. Otherwise it will just blow up again after a short while.

I would have more respect for the rioters if they would just keep it to a one or two day/night street-war. A major stand-off with the police, instead of burning cars and running away (the worst thing is they burn the cars of their neighbors, and not those of politicians)

A lot of work needs to be done about integration, here in Belgium we're only starting to see immigrant faces on national TV - and that's mostly in debating programs...
It's a difficult problem indeed, i hope i have provided some insight (and a lot of personal opinion ;))

PS, sorry if this post is a little unstructured, i've been scrolling and adding, subtracting. And if i said something wrong i can always edit or rectify in a future post, aah forums.
I'll stop editing now and hit the post button.

[tristan]

Thanks for the info. FYI, while the news paints this as a "muslim" riot, from what i've read, it has little to do with religion and everything to do with social causes. Many of the people who are rioting aren't muslim.

[x86isslow]

Well, so far the French seem fairly ineffective at handling the riots. I'm very surprised that it took so long for them to declare a curfew.


Its probably because France is on Republic number 6 or 7 now. Its vacillated between democracy and totalitarian rule ever since the French Revolution. They're understandably scared about anything like, oh say, the Patriot Act.

[LethalWolfe]

'We hate France and France hates us' (http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0%2C16518%2C1637465%2C00.html)

"...We have to do this. Our parents, they should understand. They did nothing, they suffered in silence. We don't have a choice. We're sinking in ****, and France is standing on our heads. One way or another we're heading for prison. It might as well be for actually doing something."
emphasis mine.

I think the bolded text really sums up the frustration and desperation of the youth that largely make up the rioters.

Lots of good info in this thread. I didn't realize the depth of the problems in France. Hopefully the population at large doesn't have knee-jerk reaction and line behind someone like Le Pen. And hopefully this is enough of a wake-up call to make the population at large realize that "same ol', same ol'" doesn't cut it and actual changes (not just planned changes) or things are just going to get worse.


Lethal

[mactastic]

I ran across an article (in print, still looking for it online since I managed to forget the headline and author :rolleyes: ) drawing some interesting parallels between the soul-searching Katrina and these riots in France should cause their respective countries.

[LethalWolfe]

I ran across an article (in print, still looking for it online since I managed to forget the headline and author :rolleyes: ) drawing some interesting parallels between the soul-searching Katrina and these riots in France should cause their respective countries.

It's funny you mention that 'cause I was thinking a similar thing when reading more about the riots. Hopefully you'll be able to find the article.


Lethal

[Ugg]

Die Zeit had an interesting article in its print edition two weeks ago, I can't find it online, but it was about Vienna's astounding success in dealing with a rather large Muslim population, most of whom are Turks. Maybe Takao could provide some insight into how Austria is dealing with immigration?

The city owns a substantial percentage of housing in the city but rather than herding all the poor and the immigrants into the equivalent of the dreaded French banlieus, the housing is spread throughout the city. Vienna and especially rural Austria isn't known for its acceptance of foreigners especially descendants of the Ottoman Empire, but due to a rather forward thinking mayor, Vienna has been reaping the rewards of immigration with seemingly few problems.

It's one thing to trash France for its formidable immigrant problems but it's worth taking a look at the places in Europe where immigration is proving to be a postitive force and one welcomed by forward thinkers.

[takao]

Maybe Takao could provide some insight into how Austria is dealing with immigration?

actually i'm quite surprised ;) .. since i'm living on the other side of the country i'm not that informed about vienna local politics

The city owns a substantial percentage of housing in the city but rather than herding all the poor and the immigrants into the equivalent of the dreaded French banlieus, the housing is spread throughout the city.
yeah the idea of "sozialbau" proved to be very succesfull.. in fact it's so succesfull that partially privatized they are building new ones and aquiring new properties all the time.. through selling a part of the flats etc. and over the time it's even profitable for the city

Vienna and especially rural Austria isn't known for its acceptance of foreigners especially descendants of the Ottoman Empire, but due to a rather forward thinking mayor, Vienna has been reaping the rewards of immigration with seemingly few problems.

well it's very often a "good here-bad there" kinda thing.. just 1-2 weeks ago there was a case on TV about a small village (perhaps 1000-2000) where 1/3 of the population is muslim and wanting to built a pretty high minarette tower for their small prayer-building and got the allowance of the mayor.. needless to say there were some who didn't like it.... same in my hometown where they are since years discussing where the best place for a mosque is
and then there is the prime example of the austrian army,which since they are forced to deal with immigrants doing their service in the country ... only because of the immigrants there is actually a choice in food in all units besides the old choice of either eating it or not ;) and in Vienna they formed a unit for "strictly muslims" (that often was used as excuse for going free of service in the past) including special food, special trained instructors, an "official" army praying carpet: believe it or not it was quite a sight to see them praying in the field in full gear with paint on their faces

It's one thing to trash France for its formidable immigrant problems but it's worth taking a look at the places in Europe where immigration is proving to be a postitive force and one welcomed by forward thinkers.

well in the case of of vienna it's in fact not really much forward thinking as many people would guess, just look which party absolutly dominated through the years/decades and the situation 100 years ago where vienna was overflown by different cultures of different parts of the empire:
vienna was pretty central so everybody moved there...