Rove: Conservatives are "winning the battle of ideas on almost every front"

[Thomas Veil]

From an address (http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/11/rove.conservatives/index.html?section=cnn_allpolitics) made to the Federalist Society by ol' Turd Blossom himself:

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Karl Rove, President Bush's chief political adviser, told a conservative legal organization Thursday that conservatives are "winning the battle of ideas on almost every front" -- including making huge gains in the fight over the judiciary.

"The outcome of that debate will shape the course of human events," Rove told the Federalist Society.

He added, "We are now seeing the fruits of your good works and the good works of many others."I think God probably choked on his motzoh ball soup when he heard that comment. But to continue...

Rove said the recent addition of Supreme Court Chief Justice John Roberts to the highest court, and the nomination of U.S. Circuit Judge Samuel Alito to replace Sandra Day O'Connor, should make conservatives "optimistic and hopeful."

"Our arguments will carry the day because the force and logic and wisdom of the Founders, all of them, are on our side," Rove said. "We welcome a vigorous, open and fair-minded and high-minded debate about the purpose and the meaning of the courts in our lives. And we will win that debate."More on this in a moment.

He said for too long Americans have grown increasingly concerned "about too many judges too ready and eager to legislate from too many benches."

"For decades, the American people have seen decision after decision after decision that strikes them as fundamentally out of touch with our Constitution," Rove said.

He then rattled off a list of several federal decisions that he deemed out of touch with mainstream Americans: A 9th Circuit decision declaring the phrase "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance as unconstitutional; a federal district court judge dismissing a 10-count indictment against "hard-core pornographers"; and a Supreme Court decision that bars the death penalty for those who committed murder under the age of 18.

Such "judicial imperialism," he said, is leading to the will of the people being "replaced by the personal predilections and political biases of a handful of judges."Hmmmm. AFAIK, pornography, even hard core, is still protected as free speech. And exactly who does he think wants children under 18 executed?

Onward.

"The result is that judicial imperialism has split American society, politicized the courts in a way the Founders never intended," he said. "It has created a sense of disenfranchisement among a very large segment of American society, people who believe issues not addressed by the Constitution should be decided through elections rather than by nine lawyers in robes."...Like...oh...Bush's 2000 election recount?

As far as what the Founding Fathers wanted, here's just one quote (http://mediamatters.org/items/200511030005) courtesy of Media Matters:

From the November 1 broadcast of Westwood One's The Radio Factor with Bill O'Reilly:

O'REILLY: By the way, if Alito is confirmed, that will be a good thing for conservatives. That's the bottom line. Because Alito will take a more traditional view than a [Supreme Court justices Stephen G.] Breyer or a [Ruth Bader] Ginsburg. OK? He'll look at things, and he'll say, "You know, the Founding Fathers didn't want partial-birth abortion. The Founding Fathers didn't want all mention of Christmas stricken from the public arena." That's what Alito will do. He's a traditionalist. He's going to rule that way.

According to HistoryChannel.com, celebration of Christmas in America prior to the Revolution depended largely on where one lived. In Jamestown, Virginia, one could celebrate the holiday freely. In Boston, celebration of Christmas incurred a fine of five shillings. Following the Revolution, Christmas was eschewed as "English customs fell out of favor." HistoryChannel.com noted that "Congress was in session on December 25, 1789, the first Christmas under America's new Constitution." The holiday remained unpopular for years, and Christmas was not declared a federal holiday until June 26, 1870.So much for understanding the Founders.

Even knowing that Rove is probably the top Republican bull****er in the country, it just amazes me, the amount of manure that comes out of that man's mouth. No wonder so many people believe it...it's piled so high and deep you almost can't help stepping in it.

Or if you prefer a cleaner example, I'll just say that he's really, really mastered the art of Newspeak.

[zimv20]

"almost" every front? shall i assume the missing front is poll data?

[leekohler]

"almost" every front? shall i assume the missing front is poll data?

I think so. And what ideas?

[DakotaGuy]

Rove can kiss my "A-frame, Double snakes." I spent a year fighting the war he engineered and he did not do to well on that one. The biggest problem I have with Karl is when he goes around and basically says, if you don't vote Republican you are NOT patriotic. I am a Veteran of the latest war that is still going on. I gave a year of my life up for the war. I don't totally agree with it, but I believe in doing what I say I will do. It was a learning experience for me and in the end I think the war will make me a better person. I am not bitter, I will continue to serve my country. The fact remains however, since I am a Democrat, Rove would tell me to my face that I was not patriotic. That is my personal problem with the man.

[jefhatfield]

all i can say is that he must have been asleep during election night, and i assume he hasn't talked with arnold yet

[Thanatoast]

Well, once Alito gets confirmed - and it's looking that way - the "conservatives" *will* be winning. On every issue from abortion to social security.

One of the problems I see is that we've begun to freely replace "conservative", "neo-conservative", "religion", and "Republican". I think this sloppy terminology is neither helping us define nor solve the problem.

In the article posted above, Karl mentions several things that should fall under "religious" ideas, IMO. And then zim (deliberately or not) confuses "conservative", or by my book "religious", with "Republican".

If we make sure to seperate these ideas, I think we'll have better informed and more meaningful debates, here and elsewhere.

[tristan]

You've hit on the "great lie", the triangle that keeps the Republican cabal in power. If you believe in God, you're a patriot, and you're pro-capitalism, you should vote republican, because their policies will help you, and if you're against any of those policies, by definition, you must be godless, unpatriotic, or a commie.

It's a lie because democratic policies are much better for both the working class, middle class, and even for many segments of wall street (like Internet, Media, etc), and many of these policies are working very effectively in many other countries in the world, including Canada and the UK, such as government health care, free higher education, separation of church & state, reproductive choice, higher minimum wage, etc.

[solvs]

Well, once Alito gets confirmed - and it's looking that way - the "conservatives" *will* be winning. On every issue from abortion to social security.
And when they start getting their way, it will create even more of a backlash than is happening already. We've seen how well things go when we do it the neocon way, imagine if they keep going. Especially on issues like those, where most of America disagree with them, but they just keep trying anyway. I feel sorry for the real Republicans who actually have some good ideas. Their party has long since been taken over by people who are anything but.

To quote Bill Maher, I would be a Republican if only they would. ;)

[alex_ant]

You can hate Karl Rove, but you can't say that he's not one of the great behind-the-scenes political figures in modern American history. He has been instrumental in the rise of the conservative movement over the past 30 years. He is extremely smart (and fat) and you can be quite certain that whatever is happening politically on the conservative front is a well-planned part of a long-term strategy that he has helped shape. If you think, for example, that the Miers nomination was a "failure" and a mistake, or that Bush's latest ****up will help the Democrats - or that it's a ****up at all - then you are being severely outfoxed by one of the greatest political plotters of all time. At any given time, Rove et al. are approximately 8 or 9 steps ahead of the Democrats in any given area and are more than happy to lose the battle (which the Republicans quite frequently do) if it means winning the war (which the Republicans definitely are).

[zimv20]

If you think, for example, that the Miers nomination was a "failure" and a mistake
are you saying that her nomination was put up w/ the express purpose of having it w/drawn?

[Roger1]

Well, once Alito gets confirmed - and it's looking that way - the "conservatives" *will* be winning. On every issue from abortion to social security.



I look at it this way: My four best friends are staunch Republicans, which make for some interesting (but friendly) conversations. I keep thinking that when (if) Alito gets confirmed, I will have an excellent argument for any problems they complain about: Don't blame the Dems; the Republicans run every branch of the Federal Government (Judicial, Executive, House). You guys are screwing it up yourselves. :D

[alex_ant]

are you saying that her nomination was put up w/ the express purpose of having it w/drawn?
No, you are thinking like a Democrat. Her nomination was a tactical move, one of many in an intricate chain of planned events that will help to continue to solidify conservative control over the next 10, 20, 30 years.

[Thomas Veil]

<snip>While giving credit to Rove for being one of the great Machiavellian minds of our time, I do think things are spinning out of control, even for him.

There are now too many people who are aware of how they've been manipulated and lied to. Frankly, I think Rove and the rest of the neocons have finally outsmarted themselves.

[zimv20]

No, you are thinking like a Democrat. Her nomination was a tactical move, one of many in an intricate chain of planned events that will help to continue to solidify conservative control over the next 10, 20, 30 years.
i was thinking like a democrat when i tried to clarify what you were saying? interesting.

please explain what you're on about.

[leekohler]

Her nomination was a tactical move, one of many in an intricate chain of planned events that will help to continue to solidify conservative control over the next 10, 20, 30 years.

I also think that nomination was a bait and switch.

[tristan]

Rove is good at framing issues and winning elections, but I don't think that he can handle the basics of governance and management.

[solvs]

I also think that nomination was a bait and switch.
Maybe, but do you guys really think the rest of it is some kind of grander plan? I mean, I love conspiracies as much as the next person, but a lot of what has happened is just plain incompetence. Rove is good at what he does, but even he can go too far. And as I said, he's been distracted lately. I'm thinking Miers was probably all Bush's idea. With maybe some help from Miers herself (she was on the committee, same way Cheney got to be VP).

[mactastic]

There's some quote from the Nixon days that I'm sure someone else knows more fully than I do, saying that these are just men (people), albeit very smart ones, but they've gotten in over their heads.

I'm not going to argue that Rove isn't a genius particularly when it comes to political management. But all of us have strengths and weaknesses, and Rove may be a great political guy who can quote you stats on every political district in the country, but that doesn't mean he is in any way a policy expert. Merging the roles of campaign manager and policy manager is where his downfall comes from.

No one can tell me it was a part of Rove's 'plan' to have Libby indicted and his own ass nearly indicted. Rove is still facing the prospect of indictment, and at the very least having to testify under oath at Libby's trial. No one willingly subjects themselves to an investigation by a US Attorney.

But see, Rove has his fingerprints all over policy that the right loves. Clear Skies? Healthy Forests? Tax cuts from here to eternity? Playing the hardest of hardball, punishing the Democrats who worked with them and dividing the country into a slim but (they hoped) sustainable advantage? Those were the things that made the right happy.

[alex_ant]

Maybe, but do you guys really think the rest of it is some kind of grander plan? I mean, I love conspiracies as much as the next person, but a lot of what has happened is just plain incompetence.
Do you think it's incompetence that has gotten the New Deal almost completely reversed?

[alex_ant]

Rove is good at framing issues and winning elections, but I don't think that he can handle the basics of governance and management.
As long as you can frame the issues and win elections, who cares about governance and management? Democrats are the opposite, and look at all the good it's (not) doing them (and us).

[jefhatfield]

You can hate Karl Rove, but you can't say that he's not one of the great behind-the-scenes political figures in modern American history. He has been instrumental in the rise of the conservative movement over the past 30 years. He is extremely smart (and fat) and you can be quite certain that whatever is happening politically on the conservative front is a well-planned part of a long-term strategy that he has helped shape. If you think, for example, that the Miers nomination was a "failure" and a mistake, or that Bush's latest ****up will help the Democrats - or that it's a ****up at all - then you are being severely outfoxed by one of the greatest political plotters of all time. At any given time, Rove et al. are approximately 8 or 9 steps ahead of the Democrats in any given area and are more than happy to lose the battle (which the Republicans quite frequently do) if it means winning the war (which the Republicans definitely are).

the gop has always, in terms of members, been the minority in the usa so it has forced them to be more clever, and some say more dirty

but that doesn't mean the democrats don't play dirty

rove, dick morris, carville, reid...all the same, basically imho

[solvs]

Do you think it's incompetence that has gotten the New Deal almost completely reversed?
That would be the evil conspiracy part. Act like they're doing something good while ****ing us up the ***. Katrina and Plame were the incompetance. Iraq is a big one too. And as you've seen, the house of cards is falling. The backlash has already started, and if the Dems get off their butts, they can start to undo all the damage in a few years. I think Bush is going to sour the country on neocons for awhile.

Until we forget again, and elect some other idiot who ****s things up even worse.

[mischief]

Thought I'd drop in with a comment or two and let you all know I'm still alive. Look out: Incoming Rant.

I agree that we need to keep the terms acurate.

What a lot of folks forget, (because it's not well covered) is that the Republican Party's selling out to Carl Rove's plan to use America's only easily exploited coherent voter base among their traditional caucasian numbers (the running-scared fundamentalist christians) is causing what could rapidly become a civil war within the party.


The Iraq war... A nasty issue indeed... I'll try to be brief and please understand that my analysis is seperate from my personal feelings in this case: I feel that the war was a terrible method for securing the middle east. However, my anaysis is as follows briefly:

Almost every possible Military action involving strategic areas such as Iraq has been analyzed and many wargames simulated over the last thirty years.

Iraq provides an extremely tactically efficatious position for launching suppressive actions in the near-east and two-fronting potential adversaries such as N. Korea and China in the Far east by squeezing them between bases in Iraq and bases in the Pacific. In addition to it's obvious supplies of petroleum, it's geographical placement allows for placing of tactical forces to facilitate military domination over areas adjacent to Iraq with other, more valuable assets such as Uranium, Petroleum, etc. My conclusion is that Terrorism was simply an excuse to execute a long held fall back strategy to control the entire region from one major effort.

Additionally, this dovetails with the motivations of the religious right-wing here in the USA as well as in Israel who, among the Zionists, Dominionist christians, Theocracists, and several brands of "Rapturist-christians" have greatly influenced Rove's policy.



The GOP is at roughly 30% of all registered voters but has been an effective force in American politics because a significant portion of them can be easily motivated and galvanized by fear of oppression by faceless cultural forces that are carefully constructed bogeymen to be released whenever the party leadership needs someone or something destroyed.

By contrast, the Democrats have shattered under the pressure from an unscrupulous oponent into four parties (Green, American Independant, Libertarian and Democratic remainder). Their foolish commitment to leaderless idealism has left them castrated in all politics in which they cannot find a charismatic rogue to inspire America. As a result they are divided, bicker among themselves, despondent that their last great leader was killed soon after his election before most of the newest crop of voters was born and overtaken by a fatal malaise in which most simply do not vote at all.

The democrats are a sinking ship, the Greens, libertarians and AI are too wacky to vote for and the GOP has been posessed by a dangerous cult of false prophecy.

Where does this leave us?

We live in a world shaped by prophecy and promises made by great men and women such as The Roosvelts of the twentieth century with their commitment to the working class; the work of Ghandi, the commitment to a unified Humanity voiced by JFK and a vision of racial harmony and unity espoused by Dr. Martin Luther King. Our world saw all of these things in the words of those prophetic figures and felt the power and majesty of those dreams and noble goals. We, for a brief moment during a dark turning point in the cold war had a worldwide vision of what could be... And then we were robbed.

The world watched as the two most powerful nations succumbed to internal strife among bickering idealogues and violent suppression of these new voices. Since the deaths of Dr. King and President Kennedy no voice has been brave enough to rise up in the name of nobility of purpose and the greater destiny of mankind without hiding behind the coattails of religion, bigotry, zealotry or manifest destiny. There are now so few politicians who speak plainly and passionately that the American voter is rightly cynical and mostly stays home to get drunk while watching yet another sellout in either red or blue flocking claim victory on CNN and then follow up empty promises by making things even worse.

We cannot trust the GOP's message of "Father Knows Best.". We cannot follow the neutered and faceless Democrats into their muddled non-agenda. We cannot follow the Libertarians down the road of selfish, protectionist anarchy. We cannot follow the Greens or AI into a delusional Utopia.

What is left? Where will this country find it's way?

We must begin, each within ourselves and according to our own conscience to examine those universal principals in which we truly believe. This Nation should together, without the conformist veneer of Party affiliations rise up and present a real alternative in which there are no generalities to be twisted by the likes of Carl Rove but a coherence to ideals long appreciated and openly espoused. This nation's dissafected voters should use this new and powerful medium to begin a second revolution, one of the heart and mind in which party and religion take a back seat to the constitution, universal human rights and a real commitment to globally compassionate legislation.

We, the people of the United States have proven remiss in our civic duty to ourselves and one another in allowing our rights, laws, religions, livelihoods, taxes and courts to be userped by sociopathic corporations, fearmongering religious zealots, moralist busybodies and the stupidly wealthy. We have a responsibility to reclaim all these things in the name of our ancestors, who won us our citizenship rights and to our children whose lives will be shaped by what we allow to happen while they are still in our homes.

[IJ Reilly]

Well said, and good to hear from you again.

I think you've got the basis here of a new political party, which I suggest could be called the American Nihilist Party. I can imagine some spiffy party slogans. The first which comes to mind: "Something to Believe in Again -- Not!"

;)

[mischief]

Well said, and good to hear from you again.

I think you've got the basis here of a new political party, which I suggest could be called the American Nihilist Party. I can imagine some spiffy party slogans. The first which comes to mind: "Something to Believe in Again -- Not!"

;)

Ouch Dog....

Sheez.

The whole point is that America has allowed itself to be "represented" by parties and religious groups right out of their own governance. I believe the only path out is through a non-party. What we really need is an American Coalition of Rational Patriots.

[IJ Reilly]

Ouch Dog....

Sheez.

The whole point is that America has allowed itself to be "represented" by parties and religious groups right out of their own governance. I believe the only path out is through a non-party. What we really need is an American Coalition of Rational Patriots.

Just having a small bit of fun. As I said, I do appreciate the provocative thoughts.

Though you must admit, the general thrust of your argument, that the entire political system is irretrievably corrupt and useless, doesn't leave much room for hopefulness. All of which doesn't mean I think you are wrong.

[OCOTILLO]

Republican or Democrat, there is no basic difference between politicians. Their loyalty is only to themselves and the longer they stay in Washington the worse they get. The sooner you extremists on either side understand this, the better off you will be.

[mischief]

Republican or Democrat, there is no basic difference between politicians. Their loyalty is only to themselves and the longer they stay in Washington the worse they get. The sooner you extremists on either side understand this, the better off you will be.

I have no party affgiliation whatsoever. I am registered Undeclared and intend to keep it that way. I speak out against all extremists equally but even more I am currently at war with the concept of representation in place of thought. Americans have decided both in politics and in religion that "each according to their own conscience" is too heavy a burden. This is sheer cowardly laziness.

IJ: I understand your arguement and appreciate the candor but I really believe there's a tremendous amount of hope... There just has to be a fairly heroic effort made to get a movement going here on the 'net where for the first time things can be aired in a spin-resistant setting.

I feel that the only option left is to transcend not only race and creed but party affiliation as well. We have no choice in this and it's really just a matter of time. The sooner and more agressively this strategy is implemented with compassion and good faith the more damage can be averted, repaired and prevented.

[solvs]

but I really believe there's a tremendous amount of hope...
Well, that makes one of us. ;) You can see the rest of us have accepted the suckiness of the situation and the utter hopelessness and despair we all find ourselves in. But hey, might as well enjoy the ride down. :p

Bush lost to a religious person once. He swore never to let it happen again. He and Rove created an image of this religious person who is doing God's work, and these people fall for it. Even if he does the exact opposite, they swallow it and ask for more. Only people aren't falling for it anymore. There's always going to be the ~20% who are just clueless (same happens on both sides), but most people are getting sick of the bs and lies while watching what's really going on and making things worse. As mischief said though, there is no real alternative. So the rest of us stay home as the zealots vote to ruin our lives (usually either way).

So, yeah, we're pretty much screwed.

[mischief]

Well, that makes one of us. ;) You can see the rest of us have accepted the suckiness of the situation and the utter hopelessness and despair we all find ourselves in. But hey, might as well enjoy the ride down.

(Snip)
most people are getting sick of the bs and lies while watching what's really going on and making things worse. As mischief said though, there is no real alternative. So the rest of us stay home as the zealots vote to ruin our lives (usually either way).

So, yeah, we're pretty much screwed.

Precisely my point.

Succumb to dispair and the Zealots win. Funny how the Far Right always tells you exactly how they've bent you over the table for the insertion of yonder broom handle by describing said violent act as if it were being perpetrated by the guy tied up drugged in the gimp suit in front of you.

See, in allowing ourselves to be united only in dispair we are HANDING these rectal sphincters in Armani ties our country.

Hmm... Perhaps this requires a new thread.

[jefhatfield]

we really have to hit rock bottom with bush before people are really, really sick of the neo conservatives who hold a lot of clout in the gop...and bush finds new ways as time goes on for people to be disillusioned with him...if he keeps it up, then any democrat will be able to take the white house in 2008

while i want to see a democrat in the white house next time, i don't want to have america fall any further into debt and shame (we will never "fix" iraq either so the best we can do is to plan on an exit strategy before our presence makes it worse than it's ever been, including saddam)

[solvs]

See, in allowing ourselves to be united only in dispair we are HANDING these rectal sphincters in Armani ties our country.
I think we're so used to being ****ed up the *** that we don't even notice anymore. I vote sometimes, but I can't say I'm completely happy even if my "side" wins. It's more, "well at least that guy lost". The system is broken and needs to go as far down as possible before it will get fixed. Or we all explode. Whichever.