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MacRumors
Jul 26, 2013, 12:51 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/26/microsoft-ceo-we-built-more-devices-than-we-could-sell/)


During an internal town hall event earlier this week, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer and COO Kevin Turner spoke to employees about the recent $900 million writedown the company took for the Surface RT, reports The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/26/4559074/steve-ballmer-microsoft-townhall-surface-sales-windows-devices).

"We built a few more devices than we could sell," said Ballmer, in reference to slow Surface RT sales. Ballmer also went on to say that the company isn't happy with its Windows sales, either. "We're not selling as many Windows devices as we want to."

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/07/surfacert.jpg
Microsoft has been heavily marketing the Surface RT as an iPad competitor in a series of negative advertisements (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/19/microsoft-releases-new-anti-ipad-ad-highlighting-surface-accessories/) that highlight the Surface RT's multitasking capabilities, its accessories, and its low price.

Earlier this month, Microsoft was forced to drop the price (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/11/microsoft-forced-to-slash-surface-rt-prices-despite-vigorous-anti-ipad-ad-campaign/) of its Surface RT tablets by $150, making the base price for the 32 GB tablet just $349, or $449 with a Touch Cover included. Despite the slow sales of the Surface RT, Microsoft is pushing ahead with plans for a second generation tablet.

Article Link: Microsoft CEO: 'We Built More Devices Than We Could Sell' (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/26/microsoft-ceo-we-built-more-devices-than-we-could-sell/)



MetalRCG
Jul 26, 2013, 12:53 PM
Steve Ballmer needs to just step down.

Rudy69
Jul 26, 2013, 12:55 PM
Touch cover should be included at $349

jfx94
Jul 26, 2013, 12:56 PM
Sounds like a pretty upbeat and enthusiastic town hall meeting.

ValSalva
Jul 26, 2013, 12:56 PM
"We built a few more devices than we could sell," said Ballmer

At least he has a good grasp on the situation :D

Macrolido
Jul 26, 2013, 12:58 PM
Microsoft is doomed.

keysofanxiety
Jul 26, 2013, 12:58 PM
So basically, Microsoft is saying they built more than one Surface?

OldSchoolMacGuy
Jul 26, 2013, 01:00 PM
Steve Ballmer needs to just step down.

Totally agree. Ballmer has been a cancer to that company. The board should have ousted him years ago.

JNanny
Jul 26, 2013, 01:00 PM
People can see thru the negative advertisement and can see what iOS devices can do better than Androids. Stop all this BS advertisement and spend your resources in making a better product!!

SteveLV702
Jul 26, 2013, 01:02 PM
one of the problems is no built in 4G LTE Connectivity....


Then on top of that the Windows App Store collection SUCKS

keysofanxiety
Jul 26, 2013, 01:02 PM
People can see thru the negative advertisement and can see what iOS devices can do better than Androids. Stop all this BS advertisement and spend your resources in making a better product!!

Surface doesn't run Android.

olowott
Jul 26, 2013, 01:03 PM
"a few more" :rolleyes:

That sound like MILLIONS:D

newdeal
Jul 26, 2013, 01:04 PM
I tried the touch cover at the store and it was aweful. Not sure why anyone would buy it, the keys dont move and they arent sensitive so you end up hammering each one two finger typing style. RT was DOA anyway as there are full tablets with windows 8 running Atom cpus for the same cost and with the same battery life. Too bad even the new atoms are much slower than even core 2 duos

jmh600cbr
Jul 26, 2013, 01:05 PM
After seeing what happened to Blackberry and Windows tablets it clear to say that the competition should not be trying to compete with Apple, they should find a different niche that need filling.

jglonek
Jul 26, 2013, 01:07 PM
There's an easy fix for all of Microsoft's problems:

1) Ditch Windows RT. Immediately. Before more people buy it at a fire sale and expect things for it.
2) Get Haswell-powered Windows 8 tablets out ASAP, at the iPad's price MAX. Doubling the price isn't going to sell them.
3) Remove Metro from desktop Windows. Or at least give the option of a FULL Windows Desktop or Metro (not this silly start button that goes to Metro in 8.1). Either way it's on the same core, who cares what the GUI looks like?

johncarync
Jul 26, 2013, 01:23 PM
I think the best thing for Apple (and Google) is if Ballmer stays as CEO of Microsoft.

dannyyankou
Jul 26, 2013, 01:27 PM
"We thank everyone for their patience, we're making iPads as fast as we can." - Steve Jobs

barkmonster
Jul 26, 2013, 01:28 PM
Translation: Copying anything Apple do with a cheap knock off version worked with Windows, even when it was an absolute joke in comparison, instead of just an eyesore, but we can't seem to set our photocopiers properly and do the supermarket brand routine with tablets for some reason ;)

jdblas69
Jul 26, 2013, 01:29 PM
Even dropping the base model to $349 I don't see these things moving. My guess is we will see another HP touchpad fire sale, these things will probably be $99 by Christmas.

B4U
Jul 26, 2013, 01:36 PM
Surface doesn't run Android.

I think that is an indication about how bad is the public awareness of the surface has now.

Rogifan
Jul 26, 2013, 01:38 PM
Microsoft should focus on what it's best at - the enterprise. Spin off Xbox and focus on things like Office, database, Azure, etc. rather than redesigning Windows to play in the consumer electronics space. What's wrong with Microsoft being more like IBM?

tbrand7
Jul 26, 2013, 01:39 PM
Microsoft should stick to what they do best, office…

MarkCollette
Jul 26, 2013, 01:40 PM
People can see thru the negative advertisement and can see what iOS devices can do better

While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

bedifferent
Jul 26, 2013, 01:44 PM
Yikes

eyehop
Jul 26, 2013, 01:46 PM
beleaguered:o

ri0ku
Jul 26, 2013, 01:48 PM
I think the surface tablets are actually pretty decent devices... I like both of them the build quality is great and the OS is actually really nice to use. Lacks in apps but that can be solved.

lunaoso
Jul 26, 2013, 01:52 PM
They need to drop Windows 8's price to maybe $20-$30 to get people to at least try it. $200 is way to much for an OS now a days when all the competition is pricing there's $20 (OSX) or free in the case of Linux (although its open source so maybe that doesn't count). I know Microsoft is a software company, but still a sale for $30 is better then no sale at $200.

law0915
Jul 26, 2013, 01:59 PM
Did anyone actually LOL when you read this? I may be a bit frivolous today, but I did. I know it's not good for competition to have a product come out and immedatley have their @$$ handed to them, but I STILL lol'd.

KdParker
Jul 26, 2013, 02:10 PM
I see some cheap surface pad for xmas.

If the drop the price to sub 200, the will sell like hotcakes.

----------

I think the surface tablets are actually pretty decent devices... I like both of them the build quality is great and the OS is actually really nice to use. Lacks in apps but that can be solved.

just priced too high. They targeted this a replacement for a mac air or something with similar horse power, but in the end comsumers see it as an overpriced tablet.

Chupa Chupa
Jul 26, 2013, 02:11 PM
Duh?

I guess you could say Steve Ballmer is no Tim Cook when it comes to understanding inventory.

CylonGlitch
Jul 26, 2013, 02:19 PM
What I would like to see them do is really have some humble pie. Realize that segmenting your market immediately with the RT and Pro version is a stupid idea. While they aren't bad designed machines, they lack a cohesive identity. Thus take the RT's that they have in stock, and pull out the motherboards, replace them with Pro motherboards, batteries and back housing. Basically convert them to Pros. Maybe not full pros, maybe just Surface. But they run the same apps as the pros. Now you have the Surface and Surface Pro but they run the same version of the OS, same applications. One may be slower and less battery life? Ditch the RT completely, it's a dead dog.

Sell the Surface at the same prices as the RT was originally (or is now). And the Pro's for a bit more.

Offer free upgrades to anyone who purchased an RT. Yes it will hurt, but take the write off and be done with it. Make people realize you made a mistake and you're fixing it.

Oh, and drop the price of Windows 8 to $29.99 and it will sell just fine. $200 is stupidly high.

tbrand7
Jul 26, 2013, 02:25 PM
Ladies and Gentelman... I give you the man who is driving Microsoft into the ground... AKA Steve Ballmer

jayducharme
Jul 26, 2013, 02:26 PM
Did anyone actually LOL when you read this?

I did. And I agree, Ballmer seems to be a big drag on the company.

I wish they had created a real mass-marketed Surface in more than just name. Their coffee-table Surface was a potential game-changer. Obviously, it was too big and too expensive for the mass market. But I still love the concept of a collaborative computing device. I liked the way it could pull down your smartphone data just by laying the phone on top. Microsoft never found a way to market it properly. Maybe they should have shown people dancing and holding coffee tables that clicked.

tdtran1025
Jul 26, 2013, 02:30 PM
The World (3rd) now no longer solely relies on legacy apps once populated on Windows desktop. MS arrogantly forms business plan that banks on these plus the ubiquity of its OS, hence the obvious decline. They would have no gut to gut thrir Windows, rebuild from the ground up using Linux or Unix.
They have a huge group of followers of XBox gamers around which thet can build new desktop OS that integrates seamlessly with Linux and OS X. Then copy the Apple model by making hardware, sell OS for less than $100. Then they might see small lights at the end of the tunnel.
Of course XBox will always be big.

Jibbajabba
Jul 26, 2013, 02:31 PM
Totally agree. Ballmer has been a cancer to that company. The board should have ousted him years ago.

I really REALLY wonder why they haven't yet.

----------

ladies and gentelman... I give you the man who is driving microsoft into the ground... Aka steve ballmer

developers developers developers

Rodster
Jul 26, 2013, 02:36 PM
Steve Ballmer needs to just step down.

Spot on !

I've been saying that for years. Microsoft love them or hate them have very talented people working for them. Steve Ballmer is dragging the company down. Vista, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows 8 have all been released while under his leadership.

This guy is to Microsoft what John Sculley was to Apple. :p

crossifixio
Jul 26, 2013, 02:36 PM
At least he has a good grasp on the situation :D

:D

"We thank everyone for their patience, we're making iPads as fast as we can." - Steve Jobs

What a legend! Dearly missed! :apple:

bstpierre
Jul 26, 2013, 02:41 PM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

The last app is the first one on the left. Pretty easy to find.

Someyoungguy
Jul 26, 2013, 02:44 PM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

You could use gestures to help. Swipe 5 fingers up instead of the double press to see all running apps. . Swipe 5 fingers to either side to switch between apps. Close 5 fingers toward each other to go to home screen.

scarred
Jul 26, 2013, 02:59 PM
There's an easy fix for all of Microsoft's problems:

3) Remove Metro from desktop Windows. Or at least give the option of a FULL Windows Desktop or Metro (not this silly start button that goes to Metro in 8.1). Either way it's on the same core, who cares what the GUI looks like?

In 8.1, on the desktop, Metro can basically be used like OS X Launchpad.

milo
Jul 26, 2013, 03:08 PM
Anybody know someone who has either version of the Surface?

Cape Dave
Jul 26, 2013, 03:21 PM
There's an easy fix for all of Microsoft's problems:

1) Ditch Windows RT. Immediately. Before more people buy it at a fire sale and expect things for it.
2) Get Haswell-powered Windows 8 tablets out ASAP, at the iPad's price MAX. Doubling the price isn't going to sell them.
3) Remove Metro from desktop Windows. Or at least give the option of a FULL Windows Desktop or Metro (not this silly start button that goes to Metro in 8.1). Either way it's on the same core, who cares what the GUI looks like?

Agree wholeheartedly. 8.1 is, unfortunately, just the second part of the same joke.

----------

Even dropping the base model to $349 I don't see these things moving. My guess is we will see another HP touchpad fire sale, these things will probably be $99 by Christmas.

And that would be $99 WITH the touchpad :)

keysofanxiety
Jul 26, 2013, 03:32 PM
I think that is an indication about how bad is the public awareness of the surface has now.

Sorry B4U, I'm a little confused. Was your comment related to what I said or who I was replying to? Because if the Surface does run Android then I really feel like a fool right now :o

ri0ku
Jul 26, 2013, 03:41 PM
Spot on !

I've been saying that for years. Microsoft love them or hate them have very talented people working for them. Steve Ballmer is dragging the company down. Vista, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows 8 have all been released while under his leadership.

This guy is to Microsoft what John Sculley was to Apple. :p

Vista was not when he was CEO, Windows 7 was which is a fantastic OS.

OldSchoolMacGuy
Jul 26, 2013, 03:56 PM
I really REALLY wonder why they haven't yet.[COLOR="#808080"]

No idea. It's not like he hasn't been given a chance. He's overseen their stock price slowly going downhill and hasn't done anything to correct it but instead accelerate it.

IGregory
Jul 26, 2013, 04:03 PM
"We built more devices than we could sale." Or, stated another way, we couldn't sell the devices we built.

LostSoul80
Jul 26, 2013, 04:05 PM
Maybe 'twas just like, 20 or 30 devices.

Who knows.

:D

gaximus
Jul 26, 2013, 04:06 PM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

If your using an iPad, just use a 4 finger swipe between apps. But it would also be great if they came out with an API that allowed developers to make a portion of their app run in a smaller side view for multitasking. Like a calculator that just slides in from the side.

mrxak
Jul 26, 2013, 04:09 PM
I think the best thing for Apple (and Google) is if Ballmer stays as CEO of Microsoft.

Competition is better for everyone. I would much rather see a healthy Microsoft that competes with Android and iOS, because it makes everybody work harder. When I saw what Microsoft was coming out with I was actually pretty glad because it looked like a decent product. Nothing I'd ever buy, but something good enough to get a decent marketshare. Apparently there's too many people like me who saw it as something they'd never buy, which is too bad.

mrxak
Jul 26, 2013, 04:20 PM
Spot on !

I've been saying that for years. Microsoft love them or hate them have very talented people working for them. Steve Ballmer is dragging the company down. Vista, Surface, Windows Phone, Windows 8 have all been released while under his leadership.

This guy is to Microsoft what John Sculley was to Apple. :p

Microsoft really has fantastic people working for them, but unfortunately their management structure is terrible and products are mismanaged like crazy. I've talked to a number of guys over the years and they all describe a corporate culture that is a complete mess. Incredible products are kept locked away because they can't figure out how to fit them into Microsoft's existing business model. The right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing. Bloated ancient ways of doing things are sacred and never modernized.

I say it starts at the top. Bring in a new CEO who can clear out the trash, streamline the whole company, and put the engineers back in charge.

fltman
Jul 26, 2013, 04:21 PM
Zune anyone?

mrxak
Jul 26, 2013, 04:24 PM
Zune anyone?

Like the Zune, there's going to be a few dozen people who really love this thing. Everyone else just has an iPad.

MrWillie
Jul 26, 2013, 04:40 PM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

Four finger swipe left or right. If that doesn't work, go to Settings, then General and turn on multiswipe gestures.

Rodster
Jul 26, 2013, 04:44 PM
Zune anyone?

I own a Zune HD, love the sound, HD Radio and UI. Microsoft handled that one badly.

MrWillie
Jul 26, 2013, 04:57 PM
Competition is better for everyone. I would much rather see a healthy Microsoft that competes with Android and iOS, because it makes everybody work harder. When I saw what Microsoft was coming out with I was actually pretty glad because it looked like a decent product. Nothing I'd ever buy, but something good enough to get a decent marketshare. Apparently there's too many people like me who saw it as something they'd never buy, which is too bad.

Competition is why MS can't compete in the mobile market. Other companies have better Operating Systems and hardware.

I own a Zune HD, love the sound, HD Radio and UI. Microsoft handled that one badly.

It's more like Apple handled it supurbly.

anthony11
Jul 26, 2013, 05:03 PM
one of the problems is no built in 4G LTE Connectivity....
... for an additional $100+monthly service? No thanks. I already have a phone.

----------

Four finger swipe left or right. If that doesn't work, go to Settings, then General and turn on multiswipe gestures.

You must have small fingers. Four of mine are the full height of my phone.

Renzatic
Jul 26, 2013, 05:11 PM
Four finger swipe left or right. If that doesn't work, go to Settings, then General and turn on multiswipe gestures.

Eh, swiping between apps is a clunky, inelegant solution to multitasking on iOS. It works, but it's not really smooth or quick.

iOS7 is taking steps to fix this, but it's still not as good as it could be.

B4U
Jul 26, 2013, 05:18 PM
Sorry B4U, I'm a little confused. Was your comment related to what I said or who I was replying to? Because if the Surface does run Android then I really feel like a fool right now :o

My comment meant the person you were replying to is an indication of how the surface is now.

----------

... for an additional $100+monthly service? No thanks. I already have a phone.

----------



You must have small fingers. Four of mine are the full height of my phone.

It is for the iPad...
Why bring up a "phone" when the topic is about the surface which is a "tablet"?

Rodster
Jul 26, 2013, 05:26 PM
It's more like Apple handled it supurbly.

Apple had little to with it because the iPod was well established. It boiled down to no marketing on Microsoft's part for the Zune HD. Other than that a superb sounding device.

SockRolid
Jul 26, 2013, 05:27 PM
"We built a few more devices than we could sell," said Ballmer, in reference to slow Surface RT sales.

Wall Street: "So what else is new."


"We're not selling as many Windows devices as we want to."

Wall Street: "Holy s***. Sell! Sell! Sell!"

osofast240sx
Jul 26, 2013, 05:37 PM
What I would like to see them do is really have some humble pie. Realize that segmenting your market immediately with the RT and Pro version is a stupid idea. While they aren't bad designed machines, they lack a cohesive identity. Thus take the RT's that they have in stock, and pull out the motherboards, replace them with Pro motherboards, batteries and back housing. Basically convert them to Pros. Maybe not full pros, maybe just Surface. But they run the same apps as the pros. Now you have the Surface and Surface Pro but they run the same version of the OS, same applications. One may be slower and less battery life?

They would have big problems with the FCC, a fire sale is the only way to go. Then MS can write off their losses.

SkyBell
Jul 26, 2013, 06:18 PM
Anybody know someone who has either version of the Surface?

Actually, I know three people who own one; they're all incredibly happy with it. :)

Myself? I hate tablets of any kind with a passion. :D

theBB
Jul 26, 2013, 06:28 PM
There's an easy fix for all of Microsoft's problems:

1) Ditch Windows RT. Immediately. Before more people buy it at a fire sale and expect things for it.
2) Get Haswell-powered Windows 8 tablets out ASAP, at the iPad's price MAX. Doubling the price isn't going to sell them.
3) Remove Metro from desktop Windows. Or at least give the option of a FULL Windows Desktop or Metro (not this silly start button that goes to Metro in 8.1). Either way it's on the same core, who cares what the GUI looks like?

2) Yes, sell a high end hybrid tablet/laptop at way below cost, so your licensees cannot make any money competing against you. Then they stop selling Win8 tablets and making you any payments. Brilliant!... /s

TedM
Jul 26, 2013, 06:34 PM
whoops. More like no one wanted to buy them though :/

MrWillie
Jul 26, 2013, 06:36 PM
Apple had little to with it because the iPod was well established. It boiled down to no marketing on Microsoft's part for the Zune HD. Other than that a superb sounding device.

Apple had what, 76% of the mini music player market ? They didn't invent the digital music player, but they stepped in and took it over with a superior product and infrastructure. Apple handled it supurbly. I bought a first generation Nano on release day. I was hooked. MS could have spent a trillion dollars trying to market the Zune, there would have still been no reason for me to switch. Apple controls the digital music player market.

gnasher729
Jul 26, 2013, 06:39 PM
Steve Ballmer needs to just step down.

Tim Cook hopes he doesn't :D

solarguy17
Jul 26, 2013, 06:45 PM
... for an additional $100+monthly service? No thanks. I already have a phone.

$100? What data service costs $100?
I think standard plans are $30 for 3 GB or simply $10 on a "share everything" style plan.

Really not having a cellular option was a huge mistake. Prevent people from easily making it a laptop replacement like people already do with the iPad.

Really the Surface was a good idea with ok marketing. But there are drawbacks, storage space lies, low res screen, slow processing power, poor touchcover implementation, etc.
I won't consider one for $350 but if they drop into the $150 range I might just to keep at work.

jm001
Jul 26, 2013, 07:38 PM
Apple had little to with it because the iPod was well established. It boiled down to no marketing on Microsoft's part for the Zune HD. Other than that a superb sounding device.

But then shouldn't we still give Apple the recognition for establishing the iPod as THE goto mp3/media player? When the iPod first arrived it was already in competition with a slew of other mp3 devices with features that the iPod didn't have. Apple just marketed their mp3 player and continued to build upon their first model till we are where we are today with the iPod as the dominant portable media player (excluding smartphones).

Apple came into the market after it was already established and even though it was still young, the competition was ready to take on the newcomer Apple. I still have my RIO S10 that I use when doing yard work. As well MS was just sloppy handling Zune. It is a solid player, but they couldn't make much of dent in the market.

aristobrat
Jul 26, 2013, 08:02 PM
Vista was not when he was CEO, Windows 7 was which is a fantastic OS.
IIRC, Ballmer has been CEO since 2000 (http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/exec/steve/default.aspx). Windows 7 came out in 2007.

donutbagel
Jul 26, 2013, 08:28 PM
Microsoft should focus on what it's best at - the enterprise. Spin off Xbox and focus on things like Office, database, Azure, etc. rather than redesigning Windows to play in the consumer electronics space. What's wrong with Microsoft being more like IBM?

Well they hold the gaming industry by its balls already.

DJLC
Jul 26, 2013, 08:47 PM
Microsoft sales reps keep calling me at work (a middle school), begging us to buy some at $199.99. They sound so sad when I tell them about our 200 MacBook Airs and pure Mac environment.

ratsg
Jul 26, 2013, 08:58 PM
Steve Ballmer needs to just step down.

No way. Ballmer needs to go down with the ship. He provides the comic relief the stock holders need to distract them from the numbers.

Then as soon as the company goes under, Ballmer hits the "American Idol" circuit as his second career.

Its a win/win for everyone.

unibility
Jul 26, 2013, 09:02 PM
"Despite the slow sales of the Surface RT, Microsoft is pushing ahead with plans for a second generation tablet."

hmm... doesn't history repeat itself. perhaps by the 3rd gen. Steve will wake up from his dream. :confused:

MrWillie
Jul 26, 2013, 09:42 PM
"despite the slow sales of the surface rt, microsoft is pushing ahead with plans for a second generation tablet."

hmm... Doesn't history repeat itself. Perhaps by the 3rd gen. Steve will wake up from his dream. :confused:

424853



You must have small fingers. Four of mine are the full height of my phone.

Discussion was about tablets. Then again, my phone has a nice 4.7" screen.

nomanstool
Jul 26, 2013, 09:52 PM
I think they should ditch ARM and go with Intel all the way (Haswell) - for all day battery life. If they price it right, it will be a huge hit.

From my eyes, I think what really hurt Surface RT is incompatibilities with Windows app. I mean that's the strongpoint of Windows, having a rich app ecosystem. Then they're just throwing that advantage away to get battery life? The fourth generation Intel core processors (Haswell) solve this.

Ursadorable
Jul 27, 2013, 12:11 AM
Well they hold the gaming industry by its balls already.

On the PC perhaps, but for non-PC gaming, the iPad outsells games than all the consoles combined. Of course, inexpensive game pricing on iPads/iPhones has a lot to do with that.

topmounter
Jul 27, 2013, 12:34 AM
$349 is still way too much for a boat anchor. I'd rather buy a Nexus7, get a better device with a better ecosystem and pocket a c-note (and then some).

JAT
Jul 27, 2013, 12:42 AM
It is for the iPad...
Why bring up a "phone" when the topic is about the surface which is a "tablet"?
The funny part is that command isn't available on the iPhone.

----------

Eh, swiping between apps is a clunky, inelegant solution to multitasking on iOS. It works, but it's not really smooth or quick.

If you say so. I find it ridiculously convenient. Far more than the **** I've been going through attempting to learn Win7.

donutbagel
Jul 27, 2013, 12:44 AM
$349 is still way too much for a boat anchor. I'd rather buy a Nexus7, get a better device with a better ecosystem and pocket a c-note (and then some).

Same here. According to MS's stock performance up until recently, a lot of people somehow did not expect this to fail.

Tysknaden
Jul 27, 2013, 01:23 AM
This is what finally destroyed Microsoft. Brown plastic would bring an incredible amount of strength to MS' corporate identity.

LongSticks
Jul 27, 2013, 01:35 AM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

Try this it speeds things no end!

Four- or Five-Finger Vertical Swipe Like a double-press on the Home button, a four- or five-finger upward swipe will pull up the multitasking bar along the bottom of the screen. To return it, swipe downward to hide the bar (or single-tap anywhere above it).

Four- or five-finger horizontal swipe
Four- or Five-Finger Horizontal Swipe With a four- or five-finger horizontal swipe, you can quickly move between your most recently used apps. For example, if you’re in Safari and want to switch to another open app, you can perform a four- or five-finger horizontal swipe left or right to move from one app to another; it’s similar to the one-finger swipe you use to move between home screens. You can swipe only between apps that have recently been used; to see those (and which order they’ve been used in), pull up the multitasking bar by double-pressing the Home button or by performing the four- or five-finger vertical swipe mentioned earlier.

clukas
Jul 27, 2013, 05:13 AM
I think the entire failure of the RT is its pricing. People don't view the windows rt platform as a premium one as they do the iOS ecosystem. They need to aggressively reduce the price, get them in the google nexus 7 range. $150 - 199 range including the cover and I guarantee they will fly off the shelf. They are not making much of a profit now so Microsoft should bite the bullet and get the device in as many hands as possible, get the price in the impulse but range. Once they establish themselves as a credible competitor to iOS the they can think of charging iPad prices, but its too early or even late for that. Come on Microsoft, get your act together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

osofast240sx
Jul 27, 2013, 06:52 AM
I think the entire failure of the RT is its pricing. People don't view the windows rt platform as a premium one as they do the iOS ecosystem. They need to aggressively reduce the price, get them in the google nexus 7 range. $150 - 199 range including the cover and I guarantee they will fly off the shelf. They are not making much of a profit now so Microsoft should bite the bullet and get the device in as many hands as possible, get the price in the impulse but range. Once they establish themselves as a credible competitor to iOS the they can think of charging iPad prices, but its too early or even late for that. Come on Microsoft, get your act together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

That's a horrible idea to get a product that has a very high return rate/buyers remorse into as many hands as possible. No matter what the price MS is in a pickle.

sexiewasd
Jul 27, 2013, 07:05 AM
I've found that people use windows because to most, a PC is windows. It's compatible, it's familiar, and it's frustrating, complicated, obfuscated, and they don't trust it. Tablets are an escape from that. They will probably keep a "PC" around, but the tablet ( android or iOS) is an escape from that frustration.

Why, when that customer walls into bestbuy, would they choose Windows, if that is the experience that they are actively trying to avoid?

The only thing that a salesman could say to sell one is "well since its Windows it will run all the software that you spent so many years learning and let's face it, you've become dependent on that , so what size do you want?"

Instead they have to say "well, no it doesn't run anything, at all really, have you checked out Android yet?"

This can't be a surprise to anyone.

APlotdevice
Jul 27, 2013, 07:44 AM
In 8.1, on the desktop, Metro can basically be used like OS X Launchpad.

Yeah, but imagine if Apple had removed Dock folders at the same time said Launchpad was introduced. This is basically the situation that fans of the traditional Windows interface are in now.

blevins321
Jul 27, 2013, 07:54 AM
Anybody know someone who has either version of the Surface?

Well the cast of Under the Dome uses it fervently. As well as NCIS.

The product placements crossed the border of stupid.

szw-mapple fan
Jul 27, 2013, 08:50 AM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

There is a great feature on the iPad that allows you to four-finger swipe between apps. This has made my life so much easier.

----------

I think the entire failure of the RT is its pricing. People don't view the windows rt platform as a premium one as they do the iOS ecosystem. They need to aggressively reduce the price, get them in the google nexus 7 range. $150 - 199 range including the cover and I guarantee they will fly off the shelf. They are not making much of a profit now so Microsoft should bite the bullet and get the device in as many hands as possible, get the price in the impulse but range. Once they establish themselves as a credible competitor to iOS the they can think of charging iPad prices, but its too early or even late for that. Come on Microsoft, get your act together.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

If you price it really low from the start like the Nexus people will think it's not a premium product. That's really bad for the brand image. What Mirosoft lacks is emotional appeal from consumers.

Ronlap
Jul 27, 2013, 10:07 AM
I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

Until I can have 2-3 emails, text editor, spreadsheet, and browser windows open at the same time so that I can copy and paste between them, I cannot do "useful" work on a tablet - but then again, that's why I have a laptop.

richeyty
Jul 27, 2013, 10:29 AM
One word: ha

tpho
Jul 27, 2013, 10:40 AM
When MS first dropped the price on the Surface RT, I thought they dropped it TO $150 not BY $150. Even then, I was like, no one will buy a Surface RT for $150. :D

Solomani
Jul 27, 2013, 12:15 PM
Steve Ballmer needs to just step down.

Apple and Google would be horrified if that happened. Having a baboon lead Microsoft during the early 21st century is a dream come true for Google and Apple.

z2daj
Jul 27, 2013, 01:03 PM
To be fair, the Surface Pro is a great machine. It may be a little pricey, but it does address some shortfalls of the iPad very well (think note taking for class) while running a full Windows OS. If the price was lower initially, it probably would have sold better.

I'm looking forward to the Haswell update to the Surface Pro, and may have to pick one up if the price is right.

baryon
Jul 27, 2013, 01:11 PM
Despite being that much cheaper than the iPad… Looks like people would rather save up and buy something of quality.

wizard
Jul 27, 2013, 01:39 PM
Eh, swiping between apps is a clunky, inelegant solution to multitasking on iOS. It works, but it's not really smooth or quick.

iOS7 is taking steps to fix this, but it's still not as good as it could be.

It is the best solution for the amount of RAM contained in current iOS devices.

As for smooth it works well enough on my iPad 3. The key is to close out unused but frozen apps. Again it comes back to memory, 1GB isn't really a lot and each frozen app apparently eats into that a little bit.

By the way I know the app when frozen is sent to flash but apparently some state information is maintained in RAM often leading to lose of RAM for the primary app.

In any event I don't know of a better way to do multitasking on an iPad with the current OS. Between the side swips and the up swipe you can get to any app you need pretty quick.

wizard
Jul 27, 2013, 01:51 PM
Until I can have 2-3 emails, text editor, spreadsheet, and browser windows open at the same time so that I can copy and paste between them, I cannot do "useful" work on a tablet - but then again, that's why I have a laptop.

This is bogus, copy and paste between apps isn't anymore difficult on iPad than a desktop machine. In fact in some ways it is easier. For one you don't have to hunt for the Window that you want to past into. In many cases copy and paste is a smoother experience in iPad.

Black Magic
Jul 27, 2013, 02:29 PM
Microsoft is now the dinosaur in technology. They are slowly dying. Yea, enterprise business and services keep them looking healthy but slowly things are changing. This would be a perfect time for a competitor to come out with enterprise suites and solutions.

RT failed for multiple reasons. Namely it lacks vision and identity. It's not compatible with anything and what developers are going to develop 2 different apps for the Windows store? An RT version then a normal Windows 8 version? It's just plain stupid and anyone with half a brain could have saw this train wreck before it happened.

Microsoft is showing that it has no innovation or vision and it's best days of copying folks are behind them. While they are trying to get into the regular size tablet space, Apple and Google have moved on to the 7in tablets. MS is late to the show again! Yea, we all heard the rumor Apple is looking at watches and TVs but you can bet your ass MS is working on it too (they are classic "me too"ers) and their products will be half-ass as usual. Microsoft products try to do everything for everyone and isn't particularly great at anything. Just average products and services for most of their lineup.

Bottom line: MS is the Wal-Mart of technology.

Mainsail
Jul 27, 2013, 03:29 PM
A tablet should have a buttery smooth touch interface. A Laptop should work effectively with keyboard and mouse (or trackpad). It is very hard to imagine an operating system that is both optimized for touch and keyboard. The windows tablets have proven this is extremely difficult to do without seriously compromising the user experience.

By the way, I see many professionals using iPads whist on travel and in meetings to effectively do work. I use mine everyday. I am not saying the iPad is as fully featured as a laptop.....but, it is still a very useful tool for many users.

blitzer09x87
Jul 27, 2013, 04:24 PM
whatever! i m completely happy with my surface pro and plan to buy the next version of it. it's way better than the macbook.

WilliamLondon
Jul 27, 2013, 05:09 PM
What this doesn't say, but what I would assume is that this was their *initial* production run, which means they expected to sell many, many more of these than they did in the product's first year.

I would assume they didn't expect to produce only enough for only the first days from one production run and not produce any more until year 2 or an upgrade to the product warranted more production, I'm sure they expected several runs or an ongoing production run, either of which would indicate they seriously overestimated sales of this product and the $900M writedown doesn't represent at all what they were expecting this product to contribute to their overall revenue.

I think maybe they ought to think about getting out of the hardware game altogether (save the XBOX of course), perhaps just something worthy of their consideration??

throAU
Jul 27, 2013, 05:20 PM
Microsoft should just go back to writing applications. They're actually half decent at that. Leave the operating system stuff (which is commodity these days anyhow) to others who know what they're doing.


edit:
RT could have taken off, but MS got greedy. It has benefits: no x86 viruses, battery life, etc.

However, they screwed up in several major ways:

- no domain join on RT. sorry but what? are you serious? why would i consider windows if not to integrate into my AD environment?
- no metro version of office. Office is their killer app. I defy anyone to try and actually use the regular version of office with touch.

Get metro office done, Pronto. Its the only reason anyone REALLY wants a Windows tablet. Other than the admin nerds like me who want it on the domain to simplify asset management.

----------

In 8.1, on the desktop, Metro can basically be used like OS X Launchpad.

Because launchpad was such a hit...


I mean i use it occasionally when i am running something full screen. But if it was the ONLY way to launch apps.... screw that.

clukas
Jul 27, 2013, 05:59 PM
That's a horrible idea to get a product that has a very high return rate/buyers remorse into as many hands as possible. No matter what the price MS is in a pickle.

I think you're missing the point. A lower price reduces value and expectations, people will be more willing to accept Rt's trade offs if they pay a much lower price.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

asthamapheo
Jul 27, 2013, 06:13 PM
it's a good thing they have realized their mistake, now let's hope we will see lesser but much better surface products.

blesscheese
Jul 27, 2013, 06:35 PM
Ok, if he is saying they built "a few more" devices than they could sell...and took a $900 million write down...and each device retails for, let's see, Surface Pro about $900, Surface RT about $450 (to make the math easier), I would say that they built...

...a friggin' *****-load more devices than just "a few more." More like a million or two million *at retail prices*, the cost for each is probably close to half, so, gulp...two to four million more? Holy Cow!

And Ballmer was a math major! I guess you have to spin it somehow, but man, that is f'-ed up.

throAU
Jul 27, 2013, 06:48 PM
Ok, if he is saying they built "a few more" devices than they could sell...and took a $900 million write down...and each device retails for, let's see, Surface Pro about $900, Surface RT about $450 (to make the math easier), I would say that they built...

...a friggin' *****-load more devices than just "a few more." More like a million or two million *at retail prices*, the cost for each is probably close to half, so, gulp...two to four million more? Holy Cow!

And Ballmer was a math major! I guess you have to spin it somehow, but man, that is f'-ed up.



I'm interested to know if that write down takes into account selling the inventory at reduced cost. Which would mean the number of devices involved unsold could be even higher.

DJJAZZYJET
Jul 27, 2013, 06:49 PM
Its just one flop after another with microsoft.

Hopefully they'll do it right with windows 8.1

Ha! Good joke. Not with Ballmer as CEO.

throAU
Jul 27, 2013, 06:49 PM
Its just one flop after another with microsoft.

Hopefully they'll do it right with windows 8.1

Ha! Good joke. Not with Ballmer as CEO.

I'm running 8.1 (blue) beta at work.

No, it still sucks.

egoistaxx9
Jul 27, 2013, 07:02 PM
marketing is also a big sector to cover, just imagine, if they had poured those $900 million(the loss) in the marketing sector, sales would have been much, much higher.

simvastatin
Jul 27, 2013, 08:06 PM
Why the heck would they call it Surface to begin with.

"Your Surface looks awesome" sounds awkward to me.

blesscheese
Jul 27, 2013, 09:52 PM
marketing is also a big sector to cover, just imagine, if they had poured those $900 million(the loss) in the marketing sector, sales would have been much, much higher.

??? Dude, from the programs I watch on Hulu, I don't think there was a spare 30 sec or even full 60 sec ad that they didn't buy.

Marketing will only get you so far. How many Apple iPad ads, or MBA ads do you see on TV?

blesscheese
Jul 27, 2013, 10:04 PM
Why the heck would they call it Surface to begin with.

"Your Surface looks awesome" sounds awkward to me.

In a different context, no where near as bad as, "Your Wii looks awesome!"

To this day, my wife STILL laughs when I say I'm going to play with my Wii.

Well, I laugh too when I say it!

garya73
Jul 27, 2013, 10:48 PM
One word: ha

Two words:

http://i44.tinypic.com/win9kg.jpg

osofast240sx
Jul 27, 2013, 11:05 PM
marketing is also a big sector to cover, just imagine, if they had poured those $900 million(the loss) in the marketing sector, sales would have been much, much higher.

Your forgetting the surface was an ok idea, not good and defiantly not great. The surface is hard to use on your lap as a laptop. And falls short of a good mobile tablet experience. Marketing could not have helped the surface.

StyxMaker
Jul 28, 2013, 01:09 AM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

Four finger swipes can take you directly from one app to another on iPads.

marksman
Jul 28, 2013, 01:23 AM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

My understanding is this is better in iOS 7. I don't mind the ads because Siri says ouch and stuff.

It is amazing nobody has really created an iPad competitor though even with google claiming half of all tablets run android.

People realized the tablet market would be bigger than the phone market once apple created it but now apple has run away with it.

StyxMaker
Jul 28, 2013, 01:24 AM
Ladies and Gentelman... I give you the man who is driving Microsoft into the ground... AKA Steve Ballmer

He always reminds me of the monster in "Young Dr. Frankenstein".

marksman
Jul 28, 2013, 01:25 AM
They need to drop Windows 8's price to maybe $20-$30 to get people to at least try it. $200 is way to much for an OS now a days when all the competition is pricing there's $20 (OSX) or free in the case of Linux (although its open source so maybe that doesn't count). I know Microsoft is a software company, but still a sale for $30 is better then no sale at $200.

The problem is apple leverages their low os price with hardware sales. Microsoft found not make money selling windows 8 do it detailed for $20.00.

marksman
Jul 28, 2013, 01:43 AM
Competition is better for everyone. I would much rather see a healthy Microsoft that competes with Android and iOS, because it makes everybody work harder. When I saw what Microsoft was coming out with I was actually pretty glad because it looked like a decent product. Nothing I'd ever buy, but something good enough to get a decent marketshare. Apparently there's too many people like me who saw it as something they'd never buy, which is too bad.

Ah but the rub is this move by Microsoft into the new world computing actually reduces competition. Microsoft realized that apples vertical control of hardware and software was a huge advantage. The new tablet computer world does not have three thousand dollar pcs where $200 for an os makes sense. Everything is under 1k which means there is no room for expensive tablet oses. You either have to also sell the hardware, like apple, or sell the customers, like google.

How does this reduce competition? It takes oems out of the race. Traditional pc oems would be potential customers for a Microsoft tablet os as opposed to phone vendors more relying on google. With Microsoft following apple those oems potentially never get into the game at all.

The tablet market is weird. I think apple still has room to improve their tablets before they move into the gimmick era (which is where we are with smartphones). On top of that I think there is potentially room for apple to diversify the tablet line further.

On the other hand we have seen Hp, blackberry and Microsoft fail miserably and none of the android tablets really standing out. In fact probably the most successful non apple device that is a tablet/almost a tablet/phablet is the Samsung note. Since it is smaller we basically have the top three tablets all being a different size.

----------

Actually, I know three people who own one; they're all incredibly happy with it. :)

Myself? I hate tablets of any kind with a passion. :D

I don't know how the apps work on the surface but I know someone with a windows phone who loves the phone. However since there are so few of them the market for software is almost non existent. Unless there is something I don't understand wouldn't the lack of third party applications make any device substandard when it comes to utilization?

Risco
Jul 28, 2013, 06:22 AM
Translation:


Our marketing sucks
Our products suck
Our CEO is clueless

tooobe
Jul 28, 2013, 08:41 AM
I would say my biggest problem with Microsoft is Ballmer. They make good products though (although i prefer Apple products). Haven't tried any tablets from them, but their Windows Phones are really nice I have to say.

Mainsail
Jul 28, 2013, 11:25 AM
While on a 3 week vacation this month, I saw iPads everywhere. Actually, I was surprised at the number of folks using the iPad mini as a camera. Our travels were pretty widespread: Cooperstown (baseball tourney for my son), Barcelona, and Paris. IPads are everywhere....airports, hotels, ballparks, site seeing locations.....everywhere. I did not see one Windows Tablet. I am sure they are around, but I just didn't see them in people's hands being used.

blesscheese
Jul 28, 2013, 11:46 AM
While on a 3 week vacation this month, I saw iPads everywhere. Actually, I was surprised at the number of folks using the iPad mini as a camera. Our travels were pretty widespread: Cooperstown (baseball tourney for my son), Barcelona, and Paris. IPads are everywhere....airports, hotels, ballparks, site seeing locations.....everywhere. I did not see one Windows Tablet. I am sure they are around, but I just didn't see them in people's hands being used.

It's weird. Steve Jobs saying, at the time, "We are in the post-PC era," was just a bunch of marketing/sales crap, but he was right now.

It is almost like everybody has realized they don't really need a PC...like they have "cast off their chains," and can now everything they always wanted, where they want to.

I think the iPad would have been a disaster if it had been released before the iPhone (look at the original Windows Tablets by in 2001-02, or thereabouts). With the iPhone, people started to realize they could do 90% of what they wanted to do with a computer with their phone. "If only it had a bigger screen..."

That was then the perfect time for the iPad. Before the competition had a response, Apple owned the market. Now, there is only room for something that is really, really good & better than iOS. I'm not seeing much of a contender in the Surface (it didn't help they confused everybody by releasing two different OS's...and it doesn't help to not have a phone out in the market).

pacalis
Jul 28, 2013, 04:54 PM
I want to buy a surface but both the pro's and RT are inherently conflicted products for educational and business use.

The PRO has a very nice size and form for business travel (i.e. productivity and entertainment possibilities), but it gets horrible battery life so sucks for travel.

There are other minor issues to, like it doesn't have standard video ports for projectors, only one usb (i.e. you can have a clicker and a usb but not both!). It also doesn't have a monitor and peripheral dock, which it needs because it's screen is too small for regular use.

The RT obviously has battery life for business travel, but it has a crappy productivity environment. On top of that, businesses usually lean towards one software package or other that they use regularly and obviously you can't install that on the RT.

So while the Surface should be a great bit of kit, they've spent too much time trying to follow Apple and it's ecosystem than designing and thinking through products for their ecosystem.

So Microsoft is really close to a good product, but they lack confidence in themselves to execute properly. There still isn't a really great educational or business hardware for less than $1500 (unless you're running bootcamp on a MBA), so there's a huge opportunity here.

mikefla
Jul 28, 2013, 06:12 PM
No surprise here! This company is run by a bunch of old people that should have retired decades ago. All they produce is crap, I couldn't care less about the products they make. They have no vision, they need a little Apple vision in their world. Get rid of these old folks and get some young folks with vision in there before it's too late.

-Mike

phoenixsan
Jul 28, 2013, 06:13 PM
explanation for a shortsighted supply and demand forecast, IMHO....:eek:


:):apple:

IGregory
Jul 28, 2013, 07:23 PM
All they produce is crap,

-Mike

I disagree with your assessment that the surface tablet is crap. I've spent a lot time handling the Surface at the Microsoft Store near me. I considered buying one. The tablet is beautiful, smooth and fast. Its colors are very eye catching. The build quality, even though a hard plastic, is very nice. Its downfall however is the lack of apps on my opinion. The only reason I didn't purchase was because I want my phone, computer (rMBP) and phone in the same eco system. That is where Apple has the advantage.

I would agree that Microsoft was a little late coming to the tablet and smartphone table.

Renzatic
Jul 28, 2013, 08:07 PM
The build quality, even though a hard plastic, is very nice.

Hate to be the anal retentive guy who runs around on messageboards correcting everyone, but we've all got a shtick...

...and the Surface line uses a magnesium shell, not plastic.

Now that I've informed you of this fact, my job is done here. I TAKE MY LEAVE OF YOU, SIR!

:woosh:

IGregory
Jul 28, 2013, 08:30 PM
Hate to be the anal retentive guy who runs around on messageboards correcting everyone, but we've all got a shtick...

...and the Surface line uses a magnesium shell, not plastic.

Now that I've informed you of this fact, my job is done here. I TAKE MY LEAVE OF YOU, SIR!

:woosh:

Thanks, now that you chimed in I do remember reading about the magnesium alloy shell. Its never anal to correct a mistake.

Carlanga
Jul 28, 2013, 08:38 PM
I tried the touch cover at the store and it was aweful. Not sure why anyone would buy it, the keys dont move and they arent sensitive so you end up hammering each one two finger typing style. RT was DOA anyway as there are full tablets with windows 8 running Atom cpus for the same cost and with the same battery life. Too bad even the new atoms are much slower than even core 2 duos

the cheap one is awful, the more expensive one that cost $150 does fix all the things you are complaining.

------

I'm getting excited, new tablet firesale coming soonnn :D lol

blackhand1001
Jul 28, 2013, 09:00 PM
The surface rt shouldn't have existed and there should have been a clovertrail non pro surface in its place.

SlCKB0Y
Jul 28, 2013, 09:14 PM
Actually, I know three people who own one; they're all incredibly happy with it. :)


Of course they are! People hate admitting they spent their money on junk!

----------

whatever! i m completely happy with my surface pro and plan to buy the next version of it. it's way better than the macbook.

Lolololololololololol. Thanks for that - I'm home from work sick and feeling pretty miserable. I got a great laugh out of that one. :p

RobertMartens
Jul 28, 2013, 09:21 PM
Did anyone actually LOL when you read this? I may be a bit frivolous today, but I did. I know it's not good for competition to have a product come out and immedatley have their @$$ handed to them, but I STILL lol'd.

Kick MS when they are down? Of course, it's a no brainer

----------

Its never anal to correct a mistake.

Actually, you missed a apostrophe there.

barkmonster
Jul 29, 2013, 02:04 AM
Actually, you missed a apostrophe there.

That reminds me of a picture I saw of some feckless redneck with a sign saying, "Get a brian morans!" :D

JoEw
Jul 29, 2013, 02:16 AM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

5 finger swipe.

the8thark
Jul 29, 2013, 02:24 AM
Well they hold the gaming industry by its balls already.
Well for portable gaming I think iOS wins. And for console gaming, I think now it's a 3 way tie, after Nintendo's drop from being the clear No.1. No.1 in quality and decision making I mean.

throAU
Jul 29, 2013, 02:54 AM
I've spent a lot time handling the Surface at the Microsoft Store near me.


I've spent 2 months with about 7 different Windows 8 tablets, actually attempting to use them every day for work (I'm the company nerd who gets first opportunity to evaluate new stuff before we decide to buy any).


Due to the lack of Metro apps, they're crap.

Due to having to drop into the classic desktop mode on a regular basis to change settings, browse for files, etc, they're crap.

luffytubby
Jul 29, 2013, 03:42 AM
I am not a CEO, I don't work in the computer industry. I am not in a position of knowledge or experience to say ******. But it really does seem like (to me) that Balmer is not a great CEO.

The direction they have taken their company in has not been inspiring. Their constant imitation of Apple and Sony is strange. They are a company that will never have that sort of good will and loyal consumers. I wish they would go back to make operating systems. I know that's not possible per se, as PC is dying.

But the Nokia + Microsoft deal is not a bad deal. The Lumia phones are some of the best products they have realized. Their only problem is that they where late to the race.

I say to forget about Xbox, (not gonna happen) , surface and all that. Let the great hardware makers do that. Combine your efforts with Samsung, Lenovo, and all the others. You can be a great partner if you go back to just making software. You can let these hardware dudes make cheaper and more reliable hardware.

Macman45
Jul 29, 2013, 03:51 AM
So basically, Microsoft is saying they built more than one Surface?

Classic....:D. We looked at the Surface out of curiosity a while back...the store had it lined up with the competition including the iPad, the Nexus etc. it's not a good screen, at least not in the store light, and the whole thing just looks and feels cheap. I'm an all Apple guy, but I don't knock MS for the sake of it, it just seems that they don't do hardware well....just the Xbox which we have. Maybe the second generation will be better, but three hours battery life? Seriously, they have to address that if they want to sell them.

rmwebs
Jul 29, 2013, 05:31 AM
There's an easy fix for all of Microsoft's problems:

1) Ditch Windows RT. Immediately. Before more people buy it at a fire sale and expect things for it.
2) Get Haswell-powered Windows 8 tablets out ASAP, at the iPad's price MAX. Doubling the price isn't going to sell them.
3) Remove Metro from desktop Windows. Or at least give the option of a FULL Windows Desktop or Metro (not this silly start button that goes to Metro in 8.1). Either way it's on the same core, who cares what the GUI looks like?

The biggest issue when you remove metro is that its near impossible to use Windows' GUI on a tablet - its not even remotely designed for it.

They need a different OS for tablets, not the same one. Apple handled this well. They kept the core of the OS and created a new UI for it. Microsoft simply slapped on a new UI as an app, leaving the ~16GB of Windows bloat along side it.

I've said it before, and I'm sure (given how thick the MS board seem to be) I'll say it for many years to come: Ballmer is not, has never been, and will never be fit to run ANY company.

philosopherdog
Jul 29, 2013, 07:46 AM
The only reason they're selling any at all is because they have such a huge user base. But this thing is ill conceived from the ground up. Microsoft needs to sell office. So this is the kind of machine needed to run office. The difference with Apple is that they build the best device with the best user experience, and then see how they can make the software fit to that. Apples way of thinking creates revolutionary devices. Microsoft's way of thinking makes the share holders happy in the short term. The problem though is that M$ has simply become irrelevant. Libre Office and Google Docs and amazing alternatives to Windows have finally caught up with them. The computing world will be much better off. However, the biggest concern is Google's power. That's my biggest concern anyhow.

osofast240sx
Jul 29, 2013, 08:22 AM
However, the biggest concern is Google's power. That's my biggest concern anyhow.

Google will be ditching Android OS for Chrome OS sooner than we think.

rmwebs
Jul 29, 2013, 08:29 AM
Google will be ditching Android OS for Chrome OS sooner than we think.

Yup, and rightly so. Chrome OS is fantastic compared to Android. Once Samsung move over to Tizen I think we'll start to see a few ChromeOS phones and eventually the handover of Android back to the community.

nfl46
Jul 29, 2013, 09:20 AM
Ohh, time for a huge price drop! They will sell out then!

IGregory
Jul 29, 2013, 09:58 AM
But this thing is ill conceived from the ground up. Microsoft needs to sell office.

Have you held Surface in your hand and used it? If not don't give an opinion on something you know nothing about. I suppose you would like Microsoft to build a device that infringes on Apple and Google patents.

rowspaxe
Jul 29, 2013, 10:15 AM
Prediction--in 3 years the only place microsofts tablet os will be running is on laptops and desktops. The touch laptop shows some signs of market popularity--time will tell

rowspaxe
Jul 29, 2013, 10:27 AM
I'm looking forward to the Haswell update to the Surface Pro, and may have to pick one up if the price is right.
One might as easily say MS was to the market 1 year early as 3 years too late. Haswell technology is huge step up for win based mobile technology. MS would never have hedged there bets with RT if haswell was available.

MS should stick with surface pro. It has a limited market, but it could bring them some much needed hardware cred. Overall, the full os tablet is dead, but the touch laptop is gaining momentum

Dekard
Jul 29, 2013, 10:59 AM
Probably wrong place to say this, but I'm loving my MS Surface Pro.. needed a great drawing tablet with pressure sensitivity that didn't run just 'apps'.. and it's fitting the bill nicely.

pacalis
Jul 29, 2013, 11:35 AM
Lolololololololololol. Thanks for that - I'm home from work sick and feeling pretty miserable. I got a great laugh out of that one. :p

I believe him. I'm looking to a surface pro to replace my rMBP for travel. It's half the weight, better to use on a plane and I can put all my productivity stuff on it. It even offers new functionality with the stylus.

The only thing holding me back is the battery life seems to tight and I'd like the cost to be $150 cheaper so I can bill it through for under $1000.

50548
Jul 29, 2013, 01:07 PM
Image (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/26/microsoft-ceo-we-built-more-devices-than-we-could-sell/)


During an internal town hall event earlier this week, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer and COO Kevin Turner spoke to employees about the recent $900 million writedown the company took for the Surface RT, reports The Verge (http://www.theverge.com/2013/7/26/4559074/steve-ballmer-microsoft-townhall-surface-sales-windows-devices).

"We built a few more devices than we could sell," said Ballmer, in reference to slow Surface RT sales. Ballmer also went on to say that the company isn't happy with its Windows sales, either. "We're not selling as many Windows devices as we want to."

Image (http://cdn.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/07/surfacert.jpg)
Microsoft has been heavily marketing the Surface RT as an iPad competitor in a series of negative advertisements (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/19/microsoft-releases-new-anti-ipad-ad-highlighting-surface-accessories/) that highlight the Surface RT's multitasking capabilities, its accessories, and its low price.

Earlier this month, Microsoft was forced to drop the price (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/11/microsoft-forced-to-slash-surface-rt-prices-despite-vigorous-anti-ipad-ad-campaign/) of its Surface RT tablets by $150, making the base price for the 32 GB tablet just $349, or $449 with a Touch Cover included. Despite the slow sales of the Surface RT, Microsoft is pushing ahead with plans for a second generation tablet.

Article Link: Microsoft CEO: 'We Built More Devices Than We Could Sell' (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/07/26/microsoft-ceo-we-built-more-devices-than-we-could-sell/)

As I used to say, Microsoft is DEAD. But now I mean it.

jdoehring
Jul 29, 2013, 03:02 PM
Microsoft has entered this game way to late to be considered a competitor. Even when PC's first came out, Microsoft new they had to get in the game with something competitive within two years of any releases. What has happened to the mindset of these guys up in Redmond is beyond me. Granted, Microsoft did make a tablet before the iPad came out, but it had no where the capabilities of the iPad. Ever since Gates has retired, Microsoft has done nothing but taken a back seat in technology. Their saving grace, is not Windows, but rather the XBox...Need I say more....

Jeff Doehring
Owner
www.phoenixlocalshops.com

GekkePrutser
Jul 29, 2013, 03:21 PM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.

Agreed. The side by side option would fix 80% of my frustration with the iPad. Constantly switching between IM and browser, things like that.

Also their keyboard covers (and mouse support) are something that Apple could learn a lot from. Some people, like me, use their iPads as mini laptops and these things would really help.

However I don't agree with your last comment, I use the 4-finger swipe to switch between apps and it works brilliantly.

Statelymwhite
Jul 29, 2013, 03:21 PM
In five years, all of us "office" types will be walking around our cube farms with convertible hybrid laptop/tablets running Windows 8, versus the cumbersome Win7 laptops we have now.

I would really like to see Apple create some sort of laptop/tablet hybrid, but since that's more of a business solution, it's probably not going to happen.

Black Magic
Jul 29, 2013, 03:35 PM
Microsoft's problem is that they can't really copy anymore to stay competitive. That was MS modus operandi. They did it in the beginning to Apple, Mozilla, Novel, and quite a few others. This time they can't because now we are talking about ecosystems and stickiness. When your competitors are making great products and services that lock in consumers and developers, you have to bring something fresh and attractive to the table to get market share. Copying nowadays will not get it done. Look to Bing as further proof of my point especially considering they were caught using Google for their search results.

Microsoft is now forced to display their creative and innovation chops. How does a company that built its brand and culture on copying turn around and become an innovative company all of a sudden? Leadership change.

In Microsoft internal meetings this week, Balmer was supposedly discussing Surface RT 2. Apparently Balmer will not be satisfied until Microsoft hits that iceberg. Forcing crap to the market that nobody wants is his idea of an effective strategy.

Renzatic
Jul 29, 2013, 03:54 PM
Microsoft's problem is that they can't really copy anymore to stay competitive. That was MS modus operandi. They did it in the beginning to Apple, Mozilla, Novel, and quite a few others.

Ignoring the rest of your blatantly wrong and horribly skewed post...how the hell did they copy Mozilla? Do you mean Netscape? Yeah, IE came out about half a year after Navigator did, but the project was started a few months before it's initial release.

MS' crime wasn't copying Netscape, it was using their position to keep it's market share down by tying IE in deeply with Windows.

APlotdevice
Jul 29, 2013, 03:57 PM
What's really shocking is that Balmer actually thought RT would sell. Those of us who are familiar with how the average consumer thinks have predicted its failure from the moment it was announced. Most people do not use Windows out of a sense of loyalty or trust. They use it because that's what most software and hardware run on. Compatibility is Windows' #1 strength, and RT completely threw that out.

IGregory
Jul 29, 2013, 04:01 PM
What's really shocking is that Balmer actually thought RT would sell.

He was projecting a positive attitude.

Black Magic
Jul 29, 2013, 04:01 PM
Ignoring the rest of your blatantly wrong and horribly skewed post...how the hell did they copy Mozilla? Do you mean Netscape? Yeah, IE came out about half a year after Navigator did, but the project was started a few months before it's initial release.

MS' crime wasn't copying Netscape, it was using their position to keep it's market share down by tying IE in deeply with Windows.

I figured you would chime in a pick a small piece of the entire post to harp on like usual.

IE copied Mozilla features and integrated IE into the OS. Ok, even if I am wrong and removed Mozilla/Netscape from the post, it's still a valid argument because the point remains the same.

Renzatic
Jul 29, 2013, 04:24 PM
I figured you would chime in a pick a small piece of the entire post to harp on like usual.

IE copied Mozilla features and integrated IE into the OS. Ok, even if I am wrong and removed Mozilla/Netscape from the post, it's still a valid argument because the point remains the same.

What features did they copy? Did Netscape copy Mosaic to get to the point that MS could copy Netscape? How far down does the ripping off go?

Did MS rip off Apple after ripping off PARC over the concept of a GUI? Does it count that a bunch of PARC employees responsible for the creation of the GUI went to work for both Apple and Microsoft? Were they copying themselves?

How did MS copy Novell? With Office? The Office suite came out in 1989. I think the first version of Wordperfect came out around 1993 or so. What did they do? Fly into the future and steal from them?

Course there was a patent dispute, I think. And of course MS using underhanded tactics to maintain their lead against a competitor. But that's not copying now, is it?

Has everyone always hated MS? Nope. The MS hate train we're all riding on now didn't start until they established a monopoly and started throwing their weight around during the early 2000's. Beforehand, they were considered one of the best software houses in the industry. In fact, they still are by just about everyone except platform pundits overly attached to whatever company happened to woo them with their marketing spiel first, and posting crap on blogs and messageboards.

Listen. It all comes down to one very simple, sad fact: the copying argument is stupid, and the true originators of the industry are barely spoken about at all. Apple has had their moments. They're currently riding high on their most recent one. But if you look back at their history, you'll see they're about as bad as MS. Everyone copies at some point. MS and Apple both have stolen just as much as they've contributed.

Black Magic
Jul 29, 2013, 04:38 PM
What features did they copy? Did Netscape copy Mosaic to get to the point that MS could copy Netscape? How far down does the ripping off go?

Did MS rip off Apple after ripping off PARC over the concept of a GUI? Does it count that a bunch of PARC employees responsible for the creation of the GUI went to work for both Apple and Microsoft? Were they copying themselves?

How did MS copy Novell? With Office? The Office suite came out in 1989. I think the first version of Wordperfect came out around 1993 or so. What did they do? Fly into the future and steal from them?

Course there was a patent dispute, I think. And of course MS using underhanded tactics to maintain their lead against a competitor. But that's not copying now, is it?

Has everyone always hated MS? Nope. The MS hate train we're all riding on now didn't start until they established a monopoly and started throwing their weight around during the early 2000's. Beforehand, they were considered one of the best software houses in the industry. In fact, they still are by just about everyone except platform pundits overly attached to whatever company happened to woo them with their marketing spiel first, and posting crap on blogs and messageboards.

Listen. It all comes down to one very simple, sad fact: the copying argument is stupid, and the true originators of the industry are barely spoken about at all. Apple has had their moments. They're currently riding high on their most recent one. But if you look back at their history, you'll see they're about as bad as MS. Everyone copies at some point. MS and Apple both have stolen just as much as they've contributed.

Just to be clear, MS copied Novell when it came to Active Directory.

Back to the point. Yes, everyone copies from time to time. Microsoft copies ALL the time. They are known for copying. When you look at Google, they are mostly an innovative company with copying sprinkled in. When you look at Apple, they are known as an innovative company with copying sprinkled in.

If you sit here and try to proclaim Microsoft as an innovative company, you are fooling yourself.

APlotdevice
Jul 29, 2013, 05:28 PM
He was projecting a positive attitude.

If Ballmer didn't want his company to release RT, he could have terminated the project it before it was even announced.

Liquorpuki
Jul 29, 2013, 05:29 PM
Just to be clear, MS copied Novell when it came to Active Directory.

Back to the point. Yes, everyone copies from time to time. Microsoft copies ALL the time. They are known for copying. When you look at Google, they are mostly an innovative company with copying sprinkled in. When you look at Apple, they are known as an innovative company with copying sprinkled in.

If you sit here and try to proclaim Microsoft as an innovative company, you are fooling yourself.

Microsoft's problem is branding. Their brand has eroded so much over the years that for most of the public, they can do no right, even when they are being innovative. Kinect, XB1, Windows 8, x86 tablets, converged laptop/tablets, WP8's infocentric UI are all bold innovations geared toward disruption but they suffer from poor marketing execution. Because MS's marketing department sucks

And most successful companies copy existing products with incremental innovations. Google didn't invent search or webmapping - they just had a better algorithm and implementation. The stuff they are innovating (IE X Labs) has no clear monetization path. Amazon ripped off the online bookstore from Charles Stack. Apple had Palm copy their Newton, yet they made a ton of money by putting out an MP3 player with incremental improvements. Then a smartphone, then a tablet. Xerox and Bell Labs were ripped off by everyone, the former by both Apple and MS.

Copying is normal in the tech world. Most innovations come from startups or academia, not Fortune 500 companies. There's a book out there called Fast Second that explains why

APlotdevice
Jul 29, 2013, 05:57 PM
Microsoft's problem is branding. Their brand has eroded so much over the years that for most of the public, they can do no right, even when they are being innovative. Kinect, XB1, Windows 8, x86 tablets, converged laptop/tablets, WP8's infocentric UI are all bold innovations geared toward disruption but they suffer from poor marketing execution. Because MS's marketing department sucks

It's not just marketing. One also needs considerable software support for a new platform to have any chance of succeeding in an already saturated market. Otherwise people will just stick to the platforms that already run all the programs they want. That's why no other desktop OS has ever come close the ubiquity of Windows.

To that end, the best thing Microsoft can probably do moving forward is to drop RT and put an Atom processor in the next-generation [low-end] Surface tablets. Atoms have been getting better when it comes to battery life, and while desktop applications are still a poor substitute for touch optimized ones, it's better than nothing.

Dontazemebro
Jul 29, 2013, 06:00 PM
It is the best solution for the amount of RAM contained in current iOS devices.

As for smooth it works well enough on my iPad 3. The key is to close out unused but frozen apps. Again it comes back to memory, 1GB isn't really a lot and each frozen app apparently eats into that a little bit.

By the way I know the app when frozen is sent to flash but apparently some state information is maintained in RAM often leading to lose of RAM for the primary app.

In any event I don't know of a better way to do multitasking on an iPad with the current OS. Between the side swips and the up swipe you can get to any app you need pretty quick.

Or they could just do multi window like the Galaxy Tab/Note/S4.

But that would still probably be a couple years down the road once Apple can figure out how to market it like it's some new phenomenon or innovation.

mrsir2009
Jul 30, 2013, 02:18 AM
I accidentally read that as "We sold more devices than we could build", and was like "Wait... what?!"

Digitalclips
Jul 30, 2013, 06:56 AM
After seeing what happened to Blackberry and Windows tablets it clear to say that the competition should not be trying to compete with Apple, they should find a different niche that need filling.

As opposed to their current strategy of looking for a 'landfill' that needs filling:D

Nightarchaon
Jul 30, 2013, 07:39 AM
I accidentally read that as "We sold more devices than we could build", and was like "Wait... what?!"

Microsofts sales department would like to hire you , your job will be liasing between reality and what Balmer reads.

It would appear your already good at it :D

fongkahchun86
Jul 30, 2013, 07:08 PM
While I would still buy an iOS device, I think they make some valid points. I would like to be able to switch to having two apps run side by side at times. Hell, even if it was just two phone apps, that are intended for the small size, running side by side on the tablet. I can't count the number of times I have to switch back and forth between two apps to accomplish a single task. And to make matters worse, the double button click, then find the app and click method is annoyingly time consuming when you just want to go back to the previous app.
Try using 4 fingers to swipe left/right to switch apps. It's faster.

ratsg
Jul 30, 2013, 07:53 PM
To everyone commenting that m$ came to the party too late, not only are you wrong, but you are off by over two decades.

I don't know exactly when m$ began dumping millions of dollars in to table research and attempting to push tables on end users, but I know from personal observation that m$ has been pushing tablets since at least the mid 1990's. And they have failed at tablets time and time again.

It took Apple to show the industry how to do a tablet. The Surface tablet is just m$'s latest tablet failure, and not a "too late to the party to succeed" device.

DJJAZZYJET
Aug 16, 2013, 08:41 PM
I'm running 8.1 (blue) beta at work.

No, it still sucks.

Im a hypocrite, but I actually like windows 8. Those animations have turned me haha. I heard 8.1 has even smoother animations etc, so even if it still sucks, It wont suck as much.

PinkyMacGodess
Aug 16, 2013, 09:41 PM
"We're not selling as many Windows devices as we want to."

Gosh, 'Windows 8' ring out as a possible reason, genius? Um, just asking...

Remember 'Windows Millennium Edition'? 'Windows Vista'? Now 'Windows 8'? 'Windows RT'?

I'm surprised Balmer still has a job! Bill Clinton was impeached for a stained blue dress*.

*And, ironically, lying to a room full of professional liars.

----------

Im a hypocrite, but I actually like windows 8. Those animations have turned me haha. I heard 8.1 has even smoother animations etc, so even if it still sucks, It wont suck as much.

I can see the commercials now: 'Buy Windows 8.1. It sucks less...'

After Vista, I wonder how people can put up with it... Seriously...

DJJAZZYJET
Aug 26, 2013, 05:55 AM
"We're not selling as many Windows devices as we want to."

Gosh, 'Windows 8' ring out as a possible reason, genius? Um, just asking...

Remember 'Windows Millennium Edition'? 'Windows Vista'? Now 'Windows 8'? 'Windows RT'?

I'm surprised Balmer still has a job! Bill Clinton was impeached for a stained blue dress*.

*And, ironically, lying to a room full of professional liars.

----------



I can see the commercials now: 'Buy Windows 8.1. It's sucks less...'

After Vista, I wonder how people can put up with it... Seriously...

Apparently windows 8.1 is a free upgrade from windows 8.

PinkyMacGodess
Aug 26, 2013, 06:30 AM
Apparently windows 8.1 is a free upgrade from windows 8.

When is it due? This could be interesting.

Funny that Microsoft announces Balmer's impending retirement and the stock price spikes up. Clue that you aren't doing a great job, they are happy that you are leaving. I wonder how soon the stockholders will start trying to push him out the door.

There's 'innovation', and then there's Windows 8...

MarkCollette
Oct 11, 2013, 01:49 PM
I would like to thank the 13 posters who mentioned the 4 or 5 finger swiping :D

It's really my fault that I wasn't clear about the exact nature of where I was coming from. I only own an iPhone 4, and so that's a frustration with it. And when I consider owning a tablet, I wish it could show apps side by side, even if that meant I had to launch a universal binary in an iPhone/iPod mode. But I'm grateful to find out that if I do get an iPad, the app switching is much faster.

Comparing the costs of a 2012 Nexus 7 to an iPad mini, I haven't convinced anyone switching from a PC to a tablet to go the Apple route though... It seems that only people I know who are already Apple users are getting iPads. For me, the high cost just means I haven't gotten any tablet, since my MacBook Air does everything I want.

Benguitar
Oct 17, 2013, 11:40 AM
"We thank everyone for their patience, we're making iPads as fast as we can." - Steve Jobs

Forgot about that quote.

Nice one.