Microsoft seems to be ridiculous....

greatwall9528 said:

Microsoft seems not good at product positioning,they treat their Surface as "iPad killer",and pay a lot in adds(and try to spot their competitor ,ridiculous).I don't think they will success ,for the competitor of Surface will never be iPad ,but the Macbook Air 11'' version ,but compare with Macbook Air , they will be defeated easily.....

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i haven't owned a MS product in over 5 years and I don't anticipate any changes there, but I think the surface looks pretty cool.

The day after Microsoft gets "defeated" what do you think Apple will do? Jack up prices.

Remember the first iPhone? People stood in line for 24 hours+ to hand over $500 and sign a 2 year contract... and happily I might add. Now you can walk into any number of stores and walk out 5 minutes later with a vastly superior phone for nothing more than that 2 year contract and even that isn't necessarily required.

Competition drives prices down and innovation up. This is a universal truth seen in one form or another from the smallest organisms in nature all the way up to multinational corporations.

Brand loyalty is for suckers.

DisplacedMic said:

i haven't owned a MS product in over 5 years and I don't anticipate any changes there, but I think the surface looks pretty cool.

The day after Microsoft gets "defeated" what do you think Apple will do? Jack up prices.

Remember the first iPhone? People stood in line for 24 hours+ to hand over $500 and sign a 2 year contract... and happily I might add. Now you can walk into any number of stores and walk out 5 minutes later with a vastly superior phone for nothing more than that 2 year contract and even that isn't necessarily required.

Competition drives prices down and innovation up. This is a universal truth seen in one form or another from the smallest organisms in nature all the way up to multinational corporations.

Brand loyalty is for suckers.

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Agree there. The surface hardware does look pretty cool. I would love the iPad to have a touch cover.

DisplacedMic said:

Competition drives prices down and innovation up. This is a universal truth seen in one form or another from the smallest organisms in nature all the way up to multinational corporations.

Brand loyalty is for suckers.

Click to expand...

I agree that competition is a good thing but I disagree in driving prices down. Oftentimes, when people pay a little more they expect more. Microsoft has failed in that they are selling you cheaper products that are exactly that - cheap crap. Free market economies are built this way. People naturally will pay more because they expect more and you always get what you pay for.

Finally, brand loyalty is built on trust. Folks typically don't blindly follow a company that consistently fails to deliver. Remember? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

beautifulcoder said:

I agree that competition is a good thing but I disagree in driving prices down. Oftentimes, when people pay a little more they expect more. Microsoft has failed in that they are selling you cheaper products that are exactly that - cheap crap. Free market economies are built this way. People naturally will pay more because they expect more and you always get what you pay for.

Finally, brand loyalty is built on trust. Folks typically don't blindly follow a company that consistently fails to deliver. Remember? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

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no - free market economics are based on what i said. competition absolutely drives prices down. Competition absolutely drives prices down. What do you pay for your internet or Cable bill? Think it should be less? Why isn't it? There's likely a monopoly in your area: time warner, comcast, rogers whatever.

of course some people are willing to pay more for what they value as superior products. If Apple were the only manufacturer of computers the products would be inferior to what they are now and cost more.

I tried the surface when it first came out, they had some kind of MS kiosk set up in a mall and had a bunch of them there. Liked the split screen feature a lot. Didn't really care for anything else. It was pretty heavy. Tried their Bing search thing for a restaurant I and the person who was helping me with it knew was down the street a few blocks away, couldn't find it. Just to make sure it was still there, pulled out the IPhone, asked SIRI to find it and it popped right up. Went there for lunch. MS person didn't know why it couldn't find it. It's the only time I've tried Bing...

DisplacedMic said:

no - free market economics are based on what i said. competition absolutely drives prices down. Competition absolutely drives prices down. What do you pay for your internet or Cable bill? Think it should be less? Why isn't it? There's likely a monopoly in your area: time warner, comcast, rogers whatever.

of course some people are willing to pay more for what they value as superior products. If Apple were the only manufacturer of computers the products would be inferior to what they are now and cost more.

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In a free market no one is forcing you to pay for anything. Do you think you are paying too much for cable? Do you feel like you are not getting your money's worth? It is simple, don't pay for it. What will happen is when enough folks do the same cable companies are forced to offer discounts. In addition, have you noticed Microsoft is now offering lower prices on Surfaces? It now costs less precisely because it is inferior. Even a monopoly like Microsoft can't drive prices if folks aren't interested in their crappy products.

DisplacedMic said:

i haven't owned a MS product in over 5 years and I don't anticipate any changes there, but I think the surface looks pretty cool.

The day after Microsoft gets "defeated" what do you think Apple will do? Jack up prices.

Remember the first iPhone? People stood in line for 24 hours+ to hand over $500 and sign a 2 year contract... and happily I might add. Now you can walk into any number of stores and walk out 5 minutes later with a vastly superior phone for nothing more than that 2 year contract and even that isn't necessarily required.

Competition drives prices down and innovation up. This is a universal truth seen in one form or another from the smallest organisms in nature all the way up to multinational corporations.

Brand loyalty is for suckers.

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I agree with that, but at the rate that MS is going, they can be easily "defeated". As a matter of fact, it's already happening. OEMs are already abandoning windows RT. That's the sad part of this.

adildacoolset said:

I agree with that, but at the rate that MS is going, they can be easily "defeated". As a matter of fact, it's already happening. OEMs are already abandoning windows RT. That's the sad part of this.

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Interesting. Someone was saying the other day that XP makes up 40% of the market share. We are now 3 major releases out. What percentage of the market share do you think Leopard is? Their point was that once XP goes away, it's not a sure thing or even all that likely that the vacuum will be filled with MS operating systems.

Even as someone who uses exclusively OSX and Linux on his computers I find that troubling as a consumer.

OEMs will be forced to use Linux or their own OS since Apple doesn't license their software. Also, because of Apple's possessive licensing it is unlikely that they'll gain monopoly. In either case, it's exciting to see the Wintel monopoly finally decay. What is sad is a company that managed to singlehandedly hold the industry back by more than a decade by writing really crappy software. As mentioned, XP holds 40% and it is over a decade old.

beautifulcoder said:

In a free market no one is forcing you to pay for anything. Do you think you are paying too much for cable? Do you feel like you are not getting your money's worth? It is simple, don't pay for it. What will happen is when enough folks do the same cable companies are forced to offer discounts. In addition, have you noticed Microsoft is now offering lower prices on Surfaces? It now costs less precisely because it is inferior. Even a monopoly like Microsoft can't drive prices if folks aren't interested in their crappy products.

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yes, obviously. That wasn't my point at all. In fact, that is exactly what I have done. Haven't had cable for almost 10 years. And i'm part of a growing number of people - their days are numbered. al la carte TV via the internet is the future.

My point was not to point out why time warner is violating the free market. my point is that competing options drive prices down and that is absolutely the truth. i'm also not arguing whether or not the Surface is inferior to any other product - the price is lowered because of market pressure. The more products that compete, the better they all generally are and the better the price is for consumers. That certainly doens't mean that all products made are as good as the others or that there won't be a clear winner, but the fact remains that competition keeps prices low and quality up. Since cable TV is one of very few options, the price is high and the quality is low. obviously you don't HAVE to buy it but if you really want to have traditional TV then your options are limited by what's available and what it costs.

the same thing with tech. The price itself is not quite as dynamic because the technology rapidly improves, for example I paid about as much for my most recent cell phone as I did for the one proceeding it, but the ratio of price to benchmark is absolutely driven down by increased market pressure.

if the surface was a better device than it is than that pressure will increase. If the next device Apple releases is inferior to whatever other options are out there the same thing will happen.

The arc is long, but it bends towards justice

beautifulcoder said:

OEMs will be forced to use Linux or their own OS since Apple doesn't license their software. Also, because of Apple's possessive licensing it is unlikely that they'll gain monopoly. In either case, it's exciting to see the Wintel monopoly finally decay. What is sad is a company that managed to singlehandedly hold the industry back by more than a decade by writing really crappy software. As mentioned, XP holds 40% and it is over a decade old.

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for sure! it's amazing how much things have changed. the claim of the over-priced Apple computer really is a thing of the past in my opinion...i think the turning point was when they put the pentium in there. yes, they have never carried the "budget computer" market, but spec for spec i think the price of the Macintosh has been very reasonable and starting with the white and aluminum macbooks (if not sooner) i think Apple has really brought us a long way towards releasing the iron grip of MS.

Maybe that's part of what the OP meant by "defeated"

beautifulcoder said:

I agree that competition is a good thing but I disagree in driving prices down. Oftentimes, when people pay a little more they expect more. Microsoft has failed in that they are selling you cheaper products that are exactly that - cheap crap. Free market economies are built this way. People naturally will pay more because they expect more and you always get what you pay for.

Finally, brand loyalty is built on trust. Folks typically don't blindly follow a company that consistently fails to deliver. Remember? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Click to expand...

Historically, Microsoft has sold cheap hardware (enabled by their OEM's) coupled with expensive software. Over time that hardware that would fail after 6 months led to negative user experiences, which led to brand erosion.

Apple is the opposite - expensive hardware with cheap software. Which explains everything from their embrace of freemium junk on their mobile platform to their willingness to ditch the pro market.

Both these companies operate in 2 markets (hw and sw) even though they only monetize through one. With MS in control, we've spent decades with cheap off the shelf hardware running a $200 OS and $50 applications. Now that Apple is taking over, people are now using 50% profit margin hardware running disposable software designed to hook grandmas and the technology illiterate. It's all give and take here.

DisplacedMic said:

yes, obviously. That wasn't my point at all. In fact, that is exactly what I have done. Haven't had cable for almost 10 years. And i'm part of a growing number of people - their days are numbered. al la carte TV via the internet is the future.

My point was not to point out why time warner is violating the free market. my point is that competing options drive prices down and that is absolutely the truth. i'm also not arguing whether or not the Surface is inferior to any other product - the price is lowered because of market pressure. The more products that compete, the better they all generally are and the better the price is for consumers. That certainly doens't mean that all products made are as good as the others or that there won't be a clear winner, but the fact remains that competition keeps prices low and quality up. Since cable TV is one of very few options, the price is high and the quality is low. obviously you don't HAVE to buy it but if you really want to have traditional TV then your options are limited by what's available and what it costs.

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Well my point is that you as a consumer have more power than you realize. When you buy a product you are sending a message to these companies that says whatever you paid for it is a fair market price. And since no one can coerce this decision it is never unjust. I just remember the days when people were all up in arms against Wallmart for "undercutting" the competition. Dude, it's Wallmart, who likes buying cheap crap that you have to constantly replace? Wallmart doesn't under sell because of completion, it is cheap precisely because you get cheap.

greatwall9528 said:

Microsoft seems not good at product positioning,they treat their Surface as "iPad killer",and pay a lot in adds(and try to spot their competitor ,ridiculous).I don't think they will success ,for the competitor of Surface will never be iPad ,but the Macbook Air 11'' version ,but compare with Macbook Air , they will be defeated easily.....

Click to expand...

It often takes Microsoft a few attempts before they "get it right". They'll get there eventually. Like they did with the Xbox, NT, SkyDrive and many other questionable 1.0 releases from M$.

Liquorpuki said:

Both these companies operate in 2 markets (hw and sw) even though they only monetize through one. With MS in control, we've spent decades with cheap off the shelf hardware running a $200 OS and $50 applications. Now that Apple is taking over, people are now using 50% profit margin hardware running disposable software designed to hook grandmas and the technology illiterate. It's all give and take here.

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Yea, the fact Microsoft is loosing the software battle proves it's tough to get people to pay for software. But, Apple is selling you simple not cheap software. If you think about it, software is the single most complex thing of any system. Even in the most sophisticated thing we can make like an aircraft the on board software would be the most complex thing to implement. So, since it is intrinsically complex and human beings are not capable of writing perfect software it follows that software should be kept as simple as possible as long as it just works and works well. I feel that Apple is actually selling you superior software because of this.

beautifulcoder said:

Well my point is that you as a consumer have more power than you realize. When you buy a product you are sending a message to these companies that says whatever you paid for it is a fair market price. And since no one can coerce this decision it is never unjust. I just remember the days when people were all up in arms against Wallmart for "undercutting" the competition. Dude, it's Wallmart, who likes buying cheap crap that you have to constantly replace? Wallmart doesn't under sell because of completion, it is cheap precisely because you get cheap.

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i hear you, and i don't me to be argumentative but I think I have a pretty good idea what my consumer power is

If you don't like the price, you leave the market. No sale happens unless both parties would rather have what the other guy has than what they themselves have to offer. That's why I always roll my eyes when I see people on here or on Amazon reviews, for example, complaining of things like "price gouging" and "ripoffs"

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Liquorpuki said:

Historically, Microsoft has sold cheap hardware (enabled by their OEM's) coupled with expensive software. Over time that hardware that would fail after 6 months led to negative user experiences, which led to brand erosion.

Apple is the opposite - expensive hardware with cheap software. Which explains everything from their embrace of freemium junk on their mobile platform to their willingness to ditch the pro market.

Both these companies operate in 2 markets (hw and sw) even though they only monetize through one. With MS in control, we've spent decades with cheap off the shelf hardware running a $200 OS and $50 applications. Now that Apple is taking over, people are now using 50% profit margin hardware running disposable software designed to hook grandmas and the technology illiterate. It's all give and take here.

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yeah, i don't think that's how it is. i'm a structural biologist. I solve protein structures using some of that "disposable software" you're talking about.

Computer are just more ubiquitous - doesn't mean people are any smarter than they were 20 years ago. So why assume they'd use them for intelligent purposes? But a rising tide raises all ships

DisplacedMic said:

Interesting. Someone was saying the other day that XP makes up 40% of the market share. We are now 3 major releases out. What percentage of the market share do you think Leopard is? Their point was that once XP goes away, it's not a sure thing or even all that likely that the vacuum will be filled with MS operating systems.

Even as someone who uses exclusively OSX and Linux on his computers I find that troubling as a consumer.

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Yes. I was saying that MS dropped the ball with RT. Even though competition is good, microsoft are failing to build something competitive. Their new OSes, as you have pointed, have a worryingly low amount of traction. It will be hard for them to gain trust of customers again, as they seem to have a completely wrong approach of all the products they're building– not just windows.