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View Full Version : Isn't this illegal to install ios 7 for other people for money?


iseeu1001
Aug 20, 2013, 05:22 PM
This guy on craiglist said he will install ios 7 beta for $25 now is it illegal for him to do that or not? Here is the actual post from CL http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/4010107119.html

C DM
Aug 20, 2013, 05:29 PM
It's basically up to Apple to enforce any civil action.

Parise
Aug 20, 2013, 06:30 PM
This guy on craiglist said he will install ios 7 beta for $25 now is it illegal for him to do that or not? Here is the actual post from CL http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/4010107119.html

He would probably tell the court that the money was not for the software or the UDID registration but the cost of his time to do it.

WolfSnap
Aug 20, 2013, 08:17 PM
I think someone needs to call him up and pretend to be from Apple. Ask him where you can serve him with papers for the lawsuit. LOL

ionjohn
Aug 20, 2013, 09:13 PM
My couzin knows a guy who earned like $800 by selling udid spots online. All I know is I'm doing it next year haha

SakuraSuki
Aug 20, 2013, 09:19 PM
I think someone needs to call him up and pretend to be from Apple. Ask him where you can serve him with papers for the lawsuit. LOL

Why? Do Apple appear cares someone do something like that? I know lots of computer store installing pirate Windows for a small fee.

At company this large, corporate simply does not care something small like this. Have you ever see Apple sue some random user for Hackintosh? There are quite few Hackintosh users on youtube. Or do you ever see Microsoft suing a random people in the street using pirated user?

SakuraSuki
Aug 20, 2013, 09:30 PM
It's basically to Apple to enforce any civil action.

And Apple simply wouldn't even want sue this guy or any guy. It is economically not make sense.

macsrcool1234
Aug 20, 2013, 09:36 PM
Yeah! Lets tie up our already overburdened court system because somebody is installing iOS beta's when they shouldn't!

charlituna
Aug 20, 2013, 11:22 PM
This guy on craiglist said he will install ios 7 beta for $25 now is it illegal for him to do that or not? Here is the actual post from CL http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/4010107119.html

Illegal is gray. Definitely a terms violation if he's selling UDID slots. Which will get him banned if caught and those UDIDs with him.

But whether they could sue him etc, maybe maybe not

Tander
Aug 21, 2013, 12:50 AM
Harvey Specker would win this case in court. :D

Paradoxally
Aug 21, 2013, 05:49 AM
If this guy can jailbreak 6.1.3. like he claims then the $25 are worth it :D

loanhighknight
Aug 21, 2013, 08:00 AM
This guy on craiglist said he will install ios 7 beta for $25 now is it illegal for him to do that or not? Here is the actual post from CL http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/4010107119.html

There's a difference between 'breach of contract' and 'illegal.' No legislature has passed any laws making it illegal to sell access to Apple's beta test. There are no laws protecting beta tests. There is, however, a contract that all developers agree to stipulating that they will not give access to non-developers through their accounts; your Craigslist guy is willing to breach that contract knowing that Apple will probably never bother going after him for it.

naasrd
Aug 21, 2013, 08:32 AM
This guy on craiglist said he will install ios 7 beta for $25 now is it illegal for him to do that or not? Here is the actual post from CL http://baltimore.craigslist.org/ele/4010107119.html

Not in the real free world, ie Europe.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 08:38 AM
There's a difference between 'breach of contract' and 'illegal.' No legislature has passed any laws making it illegal to sell access to Apple's beta test. There are no laws protecting beta tests. There is, however, a contract that all developers agree to stipulating that they will not give access to non-developers through their accounts; your Craigslist guy is willing to breach that contract knowing that Apple will probably never bother going after him for it.

Of course there are laws making it illegal. It's called copyright law. :confused:

Tander
Aug 21, 2013, 08:42 AM
Of course there are laws making it illegal. It's called copyright law. :confused:

That law does not apply here.

Apple don't sell iOS updates - so they are free to the public upon release, anyway. Apple have their own agreements with developers not to distribute beta software - punishment for doing do is having their dev account revoked.

FSMBP
Aug 21, 2013, 08:44 AM
Oh jeez - I hope it isn't illegal. I've been charging my family & friends to install iOS 6 on their devices since last December! :rolleyes:

pmau
Aug 21, 2013, 08:45 AM
You agree to an NDA when you download the beta.
This contract is between you and Apple.
By giving access to the beta to third parties, you violate the NDA.
If you do it for money or not is irrelevant.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 08:51 AM
That law does not apply here.

1. The question was about Baltimore, MD, USA. Not South Africa.
2. South Africa obviously has copyright laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_South_Africa).

Apple don't sell iOS updates - so they are free to the public upon release, anyway. Apple have their own agreements with developers not to distribute beta software - punishment for doing do is having their dev account revoked.

None of that is true with respect to copyright law.

pmau
Aug 21, 2013, 08:55 AM
1. The question was about Baltimore, MD, USA. Not South Africa.
2. South Africa obviously has copyright laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_South_Africa).



None of that is true with respect to copyright law.


Copyright does not apply. Downloading the beta does require agreement to an NDA. Whatever laws in your country might apply is not important, because Apple might sue because of your NDA contract violation.

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 08:56 AM
1. The question was about Baltimore, MD, USA. Not South Africa.
2. South Africa obviously has copyright laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_South_Africa).



None of that is true with respect to copyright law.

You probably should read his second paragraph.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 08:59 AM
Copyright does not apply. Downloading the beta does require agreement to an NDA. Whatever laws in your country might apply is not important, because Apple might sue because of your NDA contract violation.

Copyright always applies. Distribution and reproduction of a computer program requires the permission of the copyright holder subject to specific limitations.

You probably should read his second paragraph.

I read his second paragraph. It is incorrect.

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 09:00 AM
Oh jeez - I hope it isn't illegal. I've been charging my family & friends to install iOS 6 on their devices since last December! :rolleyes:

I don't think it is illegal. iOS 6 is free and downloadable everywhere. What you charging is for the process of installing iOS 6, not charing for iOS 6 itself.

Tyler23
Aug 21, 2013, 09:01 AM
I don't think it is illegal. iOS 6 is free and downloadable everywhere. What you charging is for the process of installing iOS 6, not charing for iOS 6 itself.

The person you quoted was being sarcastic..hence the rolling eyes.. :cool:

GoCubsGo
Aug 21, 2013, 09:04 AM
Illegal is gray. Definitely a terms violation if he's selling UDID slots. Which will get him banned if caught and those UDIDs with him.

But whether they could sue him etc, maybe maybe not

Their lawyers would likely issue a C&D and that would be that. His dev account should be banned though. Selling UDID slots or selling beta installs is just plain douchy. The spirit of the dev program is not for some ******* to make a quick buck selling beta installs.

pmau
Aug 21, 2013, 09:04 AM
Copyright always applies. Distribution and reproduction of a computer program requires the permission of the copyright holder subject to specific limitations.



I read his second paragraph. It is incorrect.

OK. Copyright does not apply because the NDA comes first.

When you and I agree on a contract and I violate our agreement, any other laws that might apply are not relevant for you to sue me ....

That was what I was trying to say.
Any number of additional laws might apply, but they are not relevant for Apple to take action.

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 09:08 AM
Copyright always applies. Distribution and reproduction of a computer program requires the permission of the copyright holder subject to specific limitations.



I read his second paragraph. It is incorrect.

1. Jailbreak is not illegal, so charging $25 for jailbreaking is not illegal either.

2. And yes, charging people $25 to install iOS 7 is breaking copyright. However, it is highly unlikely Apple would ever go after this guy nor Apple would go after any sites offer downloading iOS 7 beta. So even this guy break copyright, it isn't that much big deal anyway. I don't really see the point that this topic is worth to discuses, it is not the first day we facing software piracy and it is certainly not the last day.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 09:10 AM
OK. Copyright does not apply because the NDA comes first.

That's not true. Both apply.

When you and I agree on a contract and I violate our agreement, any other laws that might apply are not relevant for you to sue me ....

That was what I was trying to say.
Any number of additional laws might apply, but they are not relevant for Apple to take action.

Apple isn't going to sue anyone anyway.

But if this guy hypothetically turned this into a large enough business to attract Apple's attention, they would sue him for both breach of contract and copyright infringement.

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 09:12 AM
Their lawyers would likely issue a C&D and that would be that. His dev account should be banned though. Selling UDID slots or selling beta installs is just plain douchy. The spirit of the dev program is not for some ******* to make a quick buck selling beta installs.

There is a demand, then there is supply. People see the demand, then people make money by supplying it. I could not see any wrong with that. Heck, this isn't even worse than people selling pirate software on internet.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 09:13 AM
1. Jailbreak is not illegal, so charging $25 for jailbreaking is not illegal either.

:confused: I never said it was. Jailbreaking is legal for specific purposes in the US.

2. And yes, charging people $25 to install iOS 7 is breaking copyright. However, it is highly unlikely Apple would ever go after this guy nor Apple would go after any sites offer downloading iOS 7 beta. So even this guy break copyright, it isn't that much big deal anyway. I don't really see the point that this topic is worth to discuses, it is not the first day we facing software piracy and it is certainly not the last day.

I completely agree. But the question was simply whether it was illegal. I gave a straightforward answer. :)

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 09:16 AM
That's not true. Both apply.



Apple isn't going to sue anyone anyway.

But if this guy hypothetically turned this into a large enough business to attract Apple's attention, they would sue him for both breach of contract and copyright infringement.

Probably not. It is depends on situation. If this guy turns into a large business for just offering jailbreaking for a fee or installing iOS beta software for a fee, i don't really think Apple would waste loads of money for the court action. And Apple probably does not care people installing iOS 7 beta anyway.

GoCubsGo
Aug 21, 2013, 09:17 AM
There is a demand, then there is supply. People see the demand, then people make money by supplying it. I could not see any wrong with that. Heck, this isn't even worse than people selling pirate software on internet.

There is a demand and supply for illegal drugs too. ;)
But that is not my point. My point is there is a spirit behind the dev program. Without devs we wouldn't have the wonderful (and some ******) apps we have today. Most apps that I use are designed by these devs who don't work for Apple. This is a blessing in many cases. The spirit of the dev program is to allow creativity and talent not some nimrod trying to make a quick buck selling to the impatient. All I am saying is that in the spirit of the dev program, this is ******.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 09:18 AM
Probably not. It is depends on situation. If this guy turns into a large business for just offering jailbreaking for a fee or installing iOS beta software for a fee, i don't really think Apple would waste loads of money for the court action. And Apple probably does not care people installing iOS 7 beta anyway.

I disagree. But it's all a hypothetical. :)

Apple has taken action in the past to cut down on developers selling beta slots.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/11/08/05/apple_cracking_down_on_non_developer_devices_running_ios_5_report/

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 09:27 AM
I disagree. But it's all a hypothetical. :)

Apple has taken action in the past to cut down on developers selling beta slots.
http://appleinsider.com/articles/11/08/05/apple_cracking_down_on_non_developer_devices_running_ios_5_report/

Well, yes, Apple would closing developer account, but what i am saying is that it really isn't worth the money for court action.

And really, closing account isn't really effective. If i sell one slot for say $10 buck, i will make up that loss for selling 10 slot. So people could theoretically keeping registering developer account and keeping selling these slots.

C DM
Aug 21, 2013, 09:32 AM
It's not criminally illegal but it is civilly illegal, so to say. Whether or not one would actually get in trouble for it would depend on actually getting caught and someone (in this case Apple) actually going through with charges and a lawsuit.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 09:35 AM
Well, yes, Apple would closing developer account, but what i am saying is that it really isn't worth the money for court action.

That's one of the things that you are saying. I posted the article to dispute your claim that "Apple probably does not care people installing iOS 7 beta anyway."

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 09:36 AM
That's one of the things that you are saying. I posted the article to dispute your claim that "Apple probably does not care people installing iOS 7 beta anyway."

OK, i got it now... LOL...

charlituna
Aug 21, 2013, 10:40 AM
That law does not apply here.

Apple don't sell iOS updates - so they are free to the public upon release, anyway. Apple have their own agreements with developers not to distribute beta software - punishment for doing do is having their dev account revoked.

Actually yes those laws do apply.

Copyright is about the making and distributing of copies. Money doesn't have to change hands at any level to violate that.

But, again depending on the country, the worst they might be able to do is shut him down. Or even if they could sue for damages it would cost more to do that than what they could get. So banning him, disabling those UDIDs etc is likely all Apple would do depending on the level he's playing at (if he's managed to get a couple hundred accounts that might change their feelings as that's a major pack of devices)

shortcrust
Aug 21, 2013, 10:53 AM
Why do people care? No one has lost anything. Some guy makes a bit of money and people get to try some software. So?

Cougarcat
Aug 21, 2013, 11:37 AM
Why do people care? No one has lost anything. Some guy makes a bit of money and people get to try some software. So?

Well, technically they are being taken advantage of because registering the UDID is totally unnecessary.

iseeu1001
Aug 21, 2013, 04:19 PM
What if he doesn't have a developer account? I mean I could easily put ios 7 on my iphone 4s without a developer account and I have done it because it is not that hard but went back down to ios 6.1.3 because some apps wouldn't work. So if say I wanted to do this for $10 can I go to jail or get charged a fine? Notice I said can I.

Wow this much people replied in one day. My first time this many having people replied to a single post that I made out of all forums lol.

MisakixMikasa
Aug 21, 2013, 04:35 PM
What if he doesn't have a developer account? I mean I could easily put ios 7 on my iphone 4s without a developer account and I have done it because it is not that hard but went back down to ios 6.1.3 because some apps wouldn't work. So if say I wanted to do this for $10 can I go to jail or get charged a fine? Notice I said can I.

Wow this much people replied in one day. My first time this many having people replied to a single post that I made out of all forums lol.

You could potentially get jail time or huge fine, but the chance is pretty slim. Since you are not developer, Apple cannot do anything beside trying to sue you for legal action. Now, consider how money involving court action, Apple probably won't do anything to you beside sending you a legal notice. There is 99% of chance that Apple won't even find out.

The probability of you being jailed or fined is probably equal to Microsoft suing someone using pirate Windows or charging custom for installing a pirate Windows. Trust me, I have worked for a PC store and we do lot. For past 5 years, there isn't anything from Microsoft telling me that we need to stop doing that.

And for OP, it isn't the first day we are dealing with software piracy nor it is the last day of dealing software piracy. And look at how many people actually get jail time and fine for using pirate software?

TheKrs1
Aug 21, 2013, 04:39 PM
What if he doesn't have a developer account? I mean I could easily put ios 7 on my iphone 4s without a developer account and I have done it because it is not that hard but went back down to ios 6.1.3 because some apps wouldn't work. So if say I wanted to do this for $10 can I go to jail or get charged a fine? Notice I said can I.

Wow this much people replied in one day. My first time this many having people replied to a single post that I made out of all forums lol.

Ok. Well judging by the way you appear to switch between an anonymous third person ("he") and first person ("I"), I believe you are attempting to use this thread to understand the legal ramifcations for you to charge others for iOS7. If that is the case, this isn't a very good idea. For one, you are getting this advice from unknown sources. These people are providing you personal opinions without all of the required information. Secondly, you might want to research your current abilities to perform the task you intend to charge for. Current Beta's are more difficult for non-devs to install. Finally, requesting information relating to non-official developer installs of iOS 7 goes against the rules of this forum.

In my personal opinion: an individual attempting to make some money installing the iOS beta to third parties does not run the risk of any jail sentence. Depending on the local laws, they could run the risk of a fine or criminal record. More than likely they would receive a "cease and desist" order from Apple, and be open to any civil liabilites that their customers could bring forward (ex. Software/Hardware damage to phone, phone locking out, loss of data, etc.)

Also, you might want to research how to craft a proper paragraph before you write your Kijiji advertisment.

sk1wbw
Aug 21, 2013, 05:02 PM
What I wish Apple would do to alleviate all this is to invite a few hundred thousand non-devs to test a beta for free but limit their ability to make recommendations or some other limit, I don't know. I've never beta tested an iOS release, so I don't know what that entails, but there's hundreds of thousands of people that at least could offer something to Apple.

Nanasaki
Aug 21, 2013, 05:32 PM
What I wish Apple would do to alleviate all this is to invite a few hundred thousand non-devs to test a beta for free but limit their ability to make recommendations or some other limit, I don't know. I've never beta tested an iOS release, so I don't know what that entails, but there's hundreds of thousands of people that at least could offer something to Apple.

Instead of banning developer selling UDID and trying to preventing people installing beta, why not just open to everyone? Microsoft has doing that for years and lot of gam developer open beta to users.

BaldiMac
Aug 21, 2013, 05:54 PM
Instead of banning developer selling UDID and trying to preventing people installing beta, why not just open to everyone? Microsoft has doing that for years and lot of gam developer open beta to users.

Because most people don't understand what beta means. :D

JohnLT13
Aug 21, 2013, 07:43 PM
You people do realize that Apple is not the only source of IOS 7?
As easy as it is to get I'm almost 100% sure Apple does not care at all.

thekingofnerds
Aug 21, 2013, 07:50 PM
Because most people don't understand what beta means. :D

Developers don't even know what beta means these days.

Google ruined it for everyone. :D