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MacRumors
Sep 10, 2013, 04:06 PM
http://images.macrumors.com/im/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/10/more-details-on-how-the-touch-id-fingerprint-sensor-works/)


The flagship feature of the iPhone 5s is the new Touch ID fingerprint sensor, and we're beginning to get a better idea of how it works.

http://images.macrumors.com/article-new/2013/09/touchid.jpg
It appears Apple has designed Touch ID to be faster than entering a four-digit passcode, stating in its marketing materials (http://www.apple.com/iphone-5s/features/) that using Touch ID is "faster, easier, and even a little futuristic". It will allow users to store up to five fingerprints, allowing other trusted users access to a locked phone.
Put your finger on the Home button, and just like that your iPhone unlocks. It's a convenient and highly secure way to access your phone. Your fingerprint can also approve purchases from iTunes Store, the App Store, and the iBooks Store, so you don't have to enter your password. And Touch ID is capable of 360-degree readability. Which means no matter what its orientation -- portrait, landscape, or anything in between -- your iPhone reads your fingerprint and knows who you are.Financial Times reporter Tim Bradshaw shared this video (https://vine.co/v/h1XgKI5EPwY) showing how the iPhone learns a fingerprint by scanning a finger a half-dozen times.


TechCrunch wrote that once a fingerprint was successfully learned (http://techcrunch.com/2013/09/10/hands-on-with-iphone-5s/), "it worked flawlessly to unlock the device for every subsequent trial."

Also, AllThingsD reports (http://allthingsd.com/20130910/iphone-developers-wont-get-fingerprint-reader-authentication-option-for-now-anyway/?mod=atd_homepage_carousel) that third-party developers will not get access to the fingerprint authentication protocol, at least not initially.

The iPhone 5s will cost $199, $299, and $399 (http://store.apple.com/us/buy-iphone/iphone5s) for the 16 GB, 32 GB, and 64 GB models respectively with a 2-year contract. Non-contract, unlocked devices will be available at launch for $649/$749/$849.

The iPhone 5s and the lower-cost iPhone 5c (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/10/apple-announces-colorful-new-iphone-5c-starting-at-99-on-two-year-contract/) -- which does not have Touch ID -- will be available in stores in the US, Australia, Canada, China, France, Germany, Japan, Singapore, and the UK starting on September 20.

Notably, there will be no preorders (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/10/iphone-5s-will-not-be-available-for-pre-order/) for the iPhone 5s.

Article Link: More Details on How the Touch ID Fingerprint Sensor Works (http://www.macrumors.com/2013/09/10/more-details-on-how-the-touch-id-fingerprint-sensor-works/)



Gooberton
Sep 10, 2013, 04:08 PM
I for one love the sensor, I love the whole 5S, seems like people are haters on it. What did you expect? It's pretty darn cool!

cwpics
Sep 10, 2013, 04:11 PM
I for one love the sensor, I love the whole 5S, seems like people are haters on it. What did you expect? It's pretty darn cool!

Agree 100% - looking forward to getting my hands on to see how compares to 4s and my other half's 5

copete
Sep 10, 2013, 04:12 PM
Has anyone heard if it will work just as well if someone uses their thumb? That would make it more convenient.

GreenFreaK
Sep 10, 2013, 04:14 PM
Has anyone heard if it will work just as well if someone uses their thumb? That would make it more convenient.

I believe you can use any finger you'd like. I dunno if anyone has in practice yet or not

Oldschoolers
Sep 10, 2013, 04:14 PM
I love the sensor! I hope that it can stand up to the wear and tear of everyday life. My iPhone 5 home button is always smeared with what ever food is on my littles one's hands.

Gooberton
Sep 10, 2013, 04:14 PM
Has anyone heard if it will work just as well if someone uses their thumb? That would make it more convenient.

It seems to be designed for thumb. Go to you tube and look for iPhone 5s hands on. There's demo videos already

DeathChill
Sep 10, 2013, 04:16 PM
I love the sensor! I hope that it can stand up to the wear and tear of everyday life. My iPhone 5 home button is always smeared with what ever food is on my littles one's hands.
This man speaks the truth. I have two kids and I have absolutely no idea what is on their hands but they play with my phone and there is a layer of goop on the phone even if I make them wash their hands BEFORE playing with it. Wizards I tell you. Dirt wizards.

nostaws
Sep 10, 2013, 04:17 PM
It seems to be designed for thumb. Go to you tube and look for iPhone 5s hands on. There's demo videos already

In the keynote it was mentioned that you could use multiple fingers. You could have the thumb and another finger (at least one other).

TXCherokee
Sep 10, 2013, 04:17 PM
Has anyone heard if it will work just as well if someone uses their thumb? That would make it more convenient.

Thumb or index finger

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 04:18 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

Fondaparinux
Sep 10, 2013, 04:19 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone?


If someone chops off your finger, I think you have a bigger problem than your phone.

jdsipod
Sep 10, 2013, 04:21 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

Yes

PsychoLogicXen
Sep 10, 2013, 04:21 PM
Future breaking news story: Man knocked unconscious by thief. Thief steals man's iPhone only after using man's finger to unlock it. Man sues Apple.

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 04:22 PM
If someone chops off your finger, I think you have a bigger problem than your phone.

I beg to differ. Why wouldn't a thief take your finger along with your iPhone? If you think otherwise, you haven't done much traveling.

MN7119
Sep 10, 2013, 04:22 PM
Great invention for countries like Brazil. Now when you get robbed they won’t take just your iPhone. They will chop your finger and take it to.:eek:

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 04:25 PM
Great invention for countries like Brazil. Now when you get robbed they won’t take just your iPhone. They will chop your finger and take it to.:eek:

Yeah - and China, Africa, Latin America, Eastern Europe, Russia, South East Asia, US/EU cities -- just about everywhere actually -- except for maybe rural Europe and North America, and Japan.

jfreak623
Sep 10, 2013, 04:26 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

No the sensor detects pulse and temperature.

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 04:28 PM
No the sensor detects pulse and temperature.

I hope it detects pulse and temperature!! Otherwise this might actually stop me from buying it. The NSA probably already has my fingerprints from the numerous times I've gone through immigration at JFK, so that can't be much of a concern.

baryon
Sep 10, 2013, 04:30 PM
If someone chops off your finger, I think you have a bigger problem than your phone.

The potential problem is that for a thief to access - and sell - the phone, they require your finger. So now they'll need more than just your phone!

I doubt this would ever happen but in theory…

Also, if Apple's touch ID works well, other companies will be implementing it in everything - computers, cars, doors… And then your finger will become a very desirable object for thieves.

altaic
Sep 10, 2013, 04:33 PM
Oh Apple, why would you blunder so? Fingerprints are not passwords, let alone the perfect password. Touch ID -- identification -- yes, fantastic. Authentication? No. Everything you touch now has your "secret" password on it, and it bears mentioning that changing such a password is... difficult.

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 04:34 PM
The potential problem is that for a thief to access - and sell - the phone, they require your finger. So now they'll need more than just your phone!

I doubt this would ever happen but in theory…

Also, if Apple's touch ID works well, other companies will be implementing it in everything - computers, cars, doors… And then your finger will become a very desirable object for thieves.

Yeah - why are implementing something so potentially risky? You mention you doubt it will ever happen - that's naive - it can and will happen in many places around the world. A finger is nothing! They mug people for kidneys everywhere - even places like Manchester, UK - they wouldn't even think twice about taking someone's finger.

Furthermore if they do implement it in cars, house doors, etc. - people are going to be getting their fingers stolen all over the place in all countries. This is crazy. I guess we'll just have to thank our lucky stars they're not implementing retina scanners.

TechPedia
Sep 10, 2013, 04:36 PM
Also:
https://twitter.com/mcdev/status/377491907653693440
"Jealous spouses are going to love the new 5s. Wait until the other one falls asleep, carry the phone over, unlock it and snoop away!"

lusky
Sep 10, 2013, 04:44 PM
Yeah - why are implementing something so potentially risky? You mention you doubt it will ever happen - that's naive - it can and will happen in many places around the world. A finger is nothing! They mug people for kidneys everywhere - even places like Manchester, UK - they wouldn't even think twice about taking someone's finger.

Furthermore if they do implement it in cars, house doors, etc. - people are going to be getting their fingers stolen all over the place in all countries. This is crazy. I guess we'll just have to thank our lucky stars they're not implementing retina scanners.

Dear god as someone has all ready said, it detects temperature and plus, a severed finger or a print of your print is no use. stop panicking.

PS have you finished building your underground bomb shelter?

SHirsch999
Sep 10, 2013, 04:44 PM
Also:
https://twitter.com/mcdev/status/377491907653693440
"Jealous spouses are going to love the new 5s. Wait until the other one falls asleep, carry the phone over, unlock it and snoop away!"

I already know my wife's code and she knows mine. Don't give your spouse a reason to be jealous and this won't be a issue.

bandalay
Sep 10, 2013, 04:47 PM
The image it reads is the subcutaneous 3-dimensional shape of your fingerprint's ridges. Your fingerprint alone does not have these features.


Oh Apple, why would you blunder so? Fingerprints are not passwords, let alone the perfect password. Touch ID -- identification -- yes, fantastic. Authentication? No. Everything you touch now has your "secret" password on it, and it bears mentioning that changing such a password is... difficult.

Drumjim85
Sep 10, 2013, 04:49 PM
The image it reads is the subcutaneous 3-dimensional shape of your fingerprint's ridges. Your fingerprint alone does not have these features.

A very important fact to remember. This isn't just a fingerprint scanner.

dampfnudel
Sep 10, 2013, 04:49 PM
Also:
https://twitter.com/mcdev/status/377491907653693440
"Jealous spouses are going to love the new 5s. Wait until the other one falls asleep, carry the phone over, unlock it and snoop away!"

If you're worried about your spouse finding out about your secret life by doing that, the simple solution is use the pass code.

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 04:51 PM
Dear god as someone has all ready said, it detects temperature and plus, a severed finger or a print of your print is no use. stop panicking.

PS have you finished building your underground bomb shelter?

Nuclear bombs do not exist. Google "nuke lies"

iapplelove
Sep 10, 2013, 04:54 PM
No the sensor detects pulse and temperature.

lol hope the criminals know this

158273
Sep 10, 2013, 04:56 PM
The problem I see is that other people can force you to press your thumb to the iPhone and unlock it (police or even rowdy friends who want to look at something on your phone and can hold you down). So for those of us who have sensitive info on our phone, I guess we're still going to be using the passcode.

dampfnudel
Sep 10, 2013, 05:03 PM
I already know my wife's code and she knows mine. Don't give your spouse a reason to be jealous and this won't be a issue.

Some people believe a little jealousy is actually good for a marriage since it's a byproduct of lust and desire, something missing in failing marriages. The key as for everything in life is keeping it in check and not going too far.

altaic
Sep 10, 2013, 05:03 PM
The image it reads is the subcutaneous 3-dimensional shape of your fingerprint's ridges. Your fingerprint alone does not have these features.

I'm curious as to what resolution the sensor can read that third dimension. Regardless, as with any biometric, if one device can read it, another device can do so without your knowledge (and possibly without physical contact). Once the biometric has been collected, creating a fake is ultimately trivial. Passwords are based on knowledge, and until brain scanners are really good, knowledge is the only way to authenticate.

CrazyForApple
Sep 10, 2013, 05:04 PM
this is a great addition to the iPhone

158273
Sep 10, 2013, 05:05 PM
Future breaking news story: Man knocked unconscious by thief. Thief steals man's iPhone only after using man's finger to unlock it. Man sues Apple.

I hope that to reset the phone, one must also use Touch ID. That way, if someone just unlocks your phone with your finger, they still need you later on to get rid of the Activation Lock.

...people are going to be getting their fingers stolen all over the place in all countries...

I don't think "stolen" is quite the right word here... Thanks for the laugh! :D

phalseHUD
Sep 10, 2013, 05:06 PM
I'm sure GCHQ and the NSA will be grateful for the fingerprint data...
:eek:

firewood
Sep 10, 2013, 05:07 PM
So what happens if you need to wear gloves? (skiing, hospital or factory/fab clean room, etc.)

R0bert
Sep 10, 2013, 05:07 PM
Oh Apple, why would you blunder so? Fingerprints are not passwords, let alone the perfect password. Touch ID -- identification -- yes, fantastic. Authentication? No. Everything you touch now has your "secret" password on it, and it bears mentioning that changing such a password is... difficult.

Wear this so you don't leave any fingerprints..

rpe33
Sep 10, 2013, 05:10 PM
We've really become a paranoid society. The NSA has us scared to death over any new technology that comes out.

dojoman
Sep 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
So where are the people that said finger print sensors don't work???

Mums
Sep 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
lol hope the criminals know this

EXACTLY! The criminals will always be too stupid to know or believe that they can't just use a dead finger to unlock the iPhone.

WestonHarvey1
Sep 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
No the sensor detects pulse and temperature.

I hope that memo goes out to all the street thugs. It will probably be as effective as the "clerk does not know combination to safe" signs.

lonefrontranger
Sep 10, 2013, 05:13 PM
wingnut conspiracy theories aside, I'm more interested to know if the touchID allows you to set granular access authority for more than one individual. This means allowing a family member to use the phone but not to use admin level features. Apple mentioned they'd use touchID to validate things bought in the apple store. My husband and I use each other's phones interchangeably to do things like look up driving directions or change the thermostat or turn on/off lights on our hue bridge but I'm not sure I'd want to give other users (like kids) unlimited touchID access to, say, my Apple Store account, etc.

So if not I guess it's keep using passcodes and this becomes another shiny thing like Siri that's nice if you bother to mess with it, but really not super practical for everyday use (because who really ever talks to Siri in an open office environment or in public anyhow?)

Krayzie116
Sep 10, 2013, 05:15 PM
Can you have like your wife unlock by having her finger scanned into the phone or just you can unlock???

By looking at this on apple site it looks like you can maybe I'm reading it wrong here the link just scroll down to the Touch ID "And because Touch ID lets you enroll multiple fingerprints, it knows the people you trust, too."

http://www.apple.com/iphone-5s/features/

BlackCat9
Sep 10, 2013, 05:17 PM
They didn't show it, but does anyone know if you'll be able to authenticate your iCloud Keychain with your fingerprint? I had assumed this was a given when they introduced the feature, but nobody has mentioned it that I've seen.

macrumors12345
Sep 10, 2013, 05:17 PM
All the (p)reviews seem to agree that it produces virtually no false negatives (i.e., failing to recognize your own fingerprint). But I'm curious as to how often it generates false positives (i.e., lets someone else into your phone).

Melodeath
Sep 10, 2013, 05:17 PM
I already know my wife's code and she knows mine. Don't give your spouse a reason to be jealous and this won't be a issue.
Not everybody wants to share every single thing. Wanting some form of privacy is healthy, IMO, even if the stuff you want to keep only to yourself is not "incriminating." Some people just need that to be happy.

Besides, while I'm not married, I once had a gf who was jealous of everything without me giving her a reason to be. She was simply insecure. So unfortunately, your reasoning has a hole.

Getting back to the iPhone, calling this fingerprint sensor (which basically only works for purchases and unlocking) the "flagship feature" is quite indicative of how boring this 5s announcement/upgrade was, IMHO. I will still probably buy it since I'm "bored" of my 4S, but I got to say I was disappointed.

eldo33
Sep 10, 2013, 05:21 PM
I already know my wife's code and she knows mine. Don't give your spouse a reason to be jealous and this won't be a issue.

agreed!

been a loyal iphone customer since 1st gen to the IP5 but now it's getting boring with the annual little upgrade comparing to the rest of the industry. if they do'nt have some innovative anytime soon, they will lose many more customers. i have 4 lines, 2 ip4s & 2 ip5.... think i'll wait until our contract is over and try something more INNOVATIVE and bigger.

grayskies
Sep 10, 2013, 05:21 PM
The problem I see is that other people can force you to press your thumb to the iPhone and unlock it (police or even rowdy friends who want to look at something on your phone and can hold you down). So for those of us who have sensitive info on our phone, I guess we're still going to be using the passcode.

If taking your phone by threat of harm, then you could be threatened just the same to enter your code and unlock the phone. However, the police angle is interesting (i.e. "we held you down and unlocked your phone, so what, it's your word against ours").

iapplelove
Sep 10, 2013, 05:25 PM
wingnut conspiracy theories aside, I'm more interested to know if the touchID allows you to set granular access authority for more than one individual. This means allowing a family member to use the phone but not to use admin level features. Apple mentioned they'd use touchID to validate things bought in the apple store. My husband and I use each other's phones interchangeably to do things like look up driving directions or change the thermostat or turn on/off lights on our hue bridge but I'm not sure I'd want to give other users (like kids) unlimited touchID access to, say, my Apple Store account, etc.

So if not I guess it's keep using passcodes and this becomes another shiny thing like Siri that's nice if you bother to mess with it, but really not super practical for everyday use (because who really ever talks to Siri in an open office environment or in public anyhow?)

yes you can store up to 5 different prints with different users. it's in the video with jon i

edit: read your entire post,it will allow you to store more than one users print, however what your asking i doubt it.

bradl
Sep 10, 2013, 05:28 PM
If you're worried about your spouse finding out about your secret life by doing that, the simple solution is use the pass code.

If you are worried about your spouse finding out about your secret life, you really shouldn't be married to your spouse at all.

BL.

akal575
Sep 10, 2013, 05:34 PM
The fact that they aren't opening access to the scanning for 3rd party developers is stupid. How nice it would have been to be able to have this feature replace passwords for a multitude of apps at launch.

Can't see the logic in that decision.

freedevil
Sep 10, 2013, 05:38 PM
I can picture teens sneaking their sleeping parents finger's to purchase apps. Fun times.

Battlefield Fan
Sep 10, 2013, 05:39 PM
If this won't work with third party apps then it's probably not worth having until the iPhone 6 when they will most likely add this support.

dazed
Sep 10, 2013, 05:43 PM
The fact that they aren't opening access to the scanning for 3rd party developers is stupid. How nice it would have been to be able to have this feature replace passwords for a multitude of apps at launch.

Can't see the logic in that decision.

This is Apple. They love their closed systems.

Opening this to the world may introduce security issues??

HenryDJP
Sep 10, 2013, 05:43 PM
I for one love the sensor, I love the whole 5S, seems like people are haters on it. What did you expect? It's pretty darn cool!

Trust me on this one and most of the non-haters know this too, if Samsung had've put out the same plethora of small goodies on their GS4 as Apple did with the iPhone 5S today the Fandroids would've called it "Innovation". Sadly Apple gets crapped on for it.

Pez555
Sep 10, 2013, 05:46 PM
Will it still work if you use a home button protector or does the finger have to be in direct contact?

satcomer
Sep 10, 2013, 05:49 PM
I'm sure GCHQ and the NSA will be grateful for the fingerprint data...
:eek:

The US Government already has that along with my DNA when I was in the service. So I gave up a long time ago and just go with the flow. As long as you keep your nose clean you have nothing to worry about.

sam10685
Sep 10, 2013, 05:49 PM
Quite gimmicky. I think Apple is running out of ways to improve their stuff.

tbrand7
Sep 10, 2013, 05:50 PM
Oh Apple, why would you blunder so? Fingerprints are not passwords, let alone the perfect password. Touch ID -- identification -- yes, fantastic. Authentication? No. Everything you touch now has your "secret" password on it, and it bears mentioning that changing such a password is... difficult.

You can choose to turn the fingerprint sensor off. So you could have your precious passwords on the 5S...

ValSalva
Sep 10, 2013, 05:52 PM
I can picture teens sneaking their sleeping parents finger's to purchase apps. Fun times.

Going to have to sleep with gloves now :D

kdarling
Sep 10, 2013, 05:53 PM
No the sensor detects pulse and temperature.

Did Apple say that?

The image it reads is the subcutaneous 3-dimensional shape of your fingerprint's ridges. Your fingerprint alone does not have these features.

The Touch ID video at Apple.com is a bit confusing.

They said it was a capacitive scanner that reads the sub-epidermal layer... otherwise known as an RF scanner ... but they also said they used a sapphire crystal because it "acts as a lens to precisely focus on your finger."

I'd be interested in knowing how a crystal slice would focus an RF field.

TouchMint.com
Sep 10, 2013, 05:55 PM
So maybe I missed this but does the 5s have nfc?

how will these payments be done that will make it new other than not having a password and just using your finger?

AppleMark
Sep 10, 2013, 06:00 PM
Apart from all the finger chopping off scenario's, what about situations where you do not want your phone accessed to maintain your rights to privacy?

For example, if you are (wrongly or rightly) stopped by law enforcement who insist that you unlock your phone so they can search the data?

There were reports on MR this year, that Apple were inundated with requests to unlock phones of suspects. Now an officer(s) merely needs to physically place your finger on your device.

I am not advocating helping criminals, however you need to consider that not all people arrested are guilty, or criminals. Furthermore, they have legal rights (in most civilised countries) to keep information they store on their devices private until otherwise legally required to do so.

Is there an off switch? Can you revert to passcode?

terraphantm
Sep 10, 2013, 06:00 PM
Will using a password still be an option even if you have the fingerprint scanner enabled? Using it with gloves on would be a problem otherwise

I doubt I'll buy it either way, but the info is still relevant for iPhone 6

JS3
Sep 10, 2013, 06:01 PM
I dont have finger prints because they were burned off in a fire will I not be able to use this phone?

gnasher729
Sep 10, 2013, 06:07 PM
We've really become a paranoid society. The NSA has us scared to death over any new technology that comes out.

No, there are just too many people making snarky comments about the NSA wherever they can. Which has the very negative side effect that any real information is blotted out, because it is very difficult to know what is exagerration, panic, just made up, or actual fact.

-js-
Sep 10, 2013, 06:08 PM
Trust me on this one and most of the non-haters know this too, if Samsung had've put out the same plethora of small goodies on their GS4 as Apple did with the iPhone 5S today the Fandroids would've called it "Innovation". Sadly Apple gets crapped on for it.

Exactly.

There's only so much you can do in a freaking YEAR for crying out loud! How is a phone that has a processor that is TWICE as powerful, with a better camera and a fingerprint sensor so boring? Plus, no scuff-gate issues (one suspects) one the black (oops, I mean, space-grey), and better LTE support and better battery life. And the entire OS and drivers were all re-written to 64 bit. At the very least, the OS will benefit greatly from the 64 bit CPU. And it sounds like the developer tools that translate 32 bit code to 64 bit code are quite good, right? In the event today that game presenter said it only took 2 hours and worked--what did he say? "Flawlessly"? Can't remember. But in any case, if this is true, I suspect it won't be long before most of the app store apps are 64 bit.

I need to update my phone anyway, and if they had not released a new phone at all this year I still would have updated to the 5. So I'm quite pleased with the 5S. Expecting Apple to completely change the game and "innovate" like they did with the iPod and iPhone, every single year, is expecting the impossible--and undesireable. It's GOOD for things to mature. Just because it was predictable doesn't mean that it is unexciting. Or that's my feeling.

urbanlung
Sep 10, 2013, 06:09 PM
Most iPhones are stolen to sell on so there is little point in lopping off someone's finger unless you then intend to include the finger when you sell the phone. I doubt there would be many people interested in buying such a phone, it would look pretty incriminating operating a phone with. Severed finger.

altaic
Sep 10, 2013, 06:10 PM
You can choose to turn the fingerprint sensor off. So you could have your precious passwords on the 5S...

Yet hundreds of thousands of people will believe that they are prefectly secure with their so called perfect password. Whether I choose to turn it off on my phone or not is irrelevant. The blunder is Apple's marketing confusing identification and authentication, further steering people who are ignorant of basic security in the wrong direction.

gnasher729
Sep 10, 2013, 06:10 PM
For example, if you are (wrongly or rightly) stopped by law enforcement who insist that you unlock your phone so they can search the data?

You ask for a lawyer and insist that there is no ********** way that you will unlock the phone for them. And you should know that there is precedent now that they don't have any right to search your phone even if it is unlocked, much less the right to demand that you unlock the phone.

There were reports on MR this year, that Apple were inundated with requests to unlock phones of suspects. Now an officer(s) merely needs to physically place your finger on your device.

To look at the data on an iPhone, they need a search warrant. Once they have the search warrant, the police has the right to access the data, and whether your phone is protected by a passcode or a fingerprint makes no difference. Actually, there is a situation where _you_ cannot be required to unlock the phone, and that is when the fact that _you_ can unlock it is evidence against you; for example if a locked phone with unknown owner is found at the scene of a murder, the fact that _you_ can unlock it would incriminate you. In such a case, it might be that Apple cannot unlock phones that are protected by the fingerprint sensor.

westycat
Sep 10, 2013, 06:10 PM
I hope that to reset the phone, one must also use Touch ID. That way, if someone just unlocks your phone with your finger, they still need you later on to get rid of the Activation Lock.



I don't think "stolen" is quite the right word here... Thanks for the laugh! :D

Exactly what I was thinking, its very possible a thief can club you over the head, act naturally, set you down, act as if he's the one helping you because you "fainted" and all he has to do is unlock your phone, change the finger print to his, walk away, and boom your F'd....

Same goes for being drugged. Someone can access your phone with finger print and then alter it to their own finger.

If someone wants something bad enough, they'll find away to take it....

I'm not paranoid. I'm just aware of the society we live it....chit happens

I'll stick with passcode. I feel its more secure.

DJJAZZYJET
Sep 10, 2013, 06:10 PM
I love the sensor! I hope that it can stand up to the wear and tear of everyday life. My iPhone 5 home button is always smeared with what ever food is on my littles one's hands.

It has a saffire crystal cover, so it should be really good.

pubwvj
Sep 10, 2013, 06:11 PM
Good for Apple with storing more than one person. We have multiple people in our family using each device. Locking it to one person would be absurd. It should me more than just five though. That could use improving.

Next I want legacy support for all MacOS and iOS software back to the version 1.0 operating systems. Apple has the economic, technical and computational resources to do this. There is a tremendous amount of older software that is great but not duplicated.

UnfetteredMind
Sep 10, 2013, 06:17 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

Perhaps you can test it and let us know?

----------

So what happens if you need to wear gloves? (skiing, hospital or factory/fab clean room, etc.)

What do you do now on your iPhone when you need to wear gloves?

bpcookson
Sep 10, 2013, 06:18 PM
Did they remove the rounded rectangle image on the home button? Is it just a blank button now?

xlost6
Sep 10, 2013, 06:19 PM
Did they remove the rounded rectangle image on the home button? Is it just a blank button now?
Yes and yes.

UnfetteredMind
Sep 10, 2013, 06:23 PM
Will it still work if you use a home button protector or does the finger have to be in direct contact?

What are you going to use that's better than the sapphire crystal top layer they already use?

WardC
Sep 10, 2013, 06:24 PM
What do you do now on your iPhone when you need to wear gloves?

You take off your glove, and use the fingerprint reader. Simple.

Ever notice how the touchscreen on the iPhone doesn't work when you wear gloves? It was designed for use by the skin of your fingers...

gnasher729
Sep 10, 2013, 06:24 PM
Exactly what I was thinking, its very possible a thief can club you over the head, act naturally, set you down, act as if he's the one helping you because you "fainted" and all he has to do is unlock your phone, change the finger print to his, walk away, and boom your F'd....

Same goes for being drugged. Someone can access your phone with finger print and then alter it to their own finger.

If someone wants something bad enough, they'll find away to take it....

I'm not paranoid. I'm just aware of the society we live it....chit happens

I'll stick with passcode. I feel its more secure.

All your scenarios start with you falling victim to a violent criminal, who knocks you out, drugs you, etc. Once that happens, you've lost, and it is pointless to wonder what that violent criminal could do with your phone.

marksman
Sep 10, 2013, 06:26 PM
The potential problem is that for a thief to access - and sell - the phone, they require your finger. So now they'll need more than just your phone!

I doubt this would ever happen but in theory…

Also, if Apple's touch ID works well, other companies will be implementing it in everything - computers, cars, doors… And then your finger will become a very desirable object for thieves.
As noted above current tech requires the finger to be alive. None of this stuff will work with cut off fingers or copies of finger prints.

----------

Yeah - why are implementing something so potentially risky? You mention you doubt it will ever happen - that's naive - it can and will happen in many places around the world. A finger is nothing! They mug people for kidneys everywhere - even places like Manchester, UK - they wouldn't even think twice about taking someone's finger.

Furthermore if they do implement it in cars, house doors, etc. - people are going to be getting their fingers stolen all over the place in all countries. This is crazy. I guess we'll just have to thank our lucky stars they're not implementing retina scanners.

It doesn't work like that

CylonGlitch
Sep 10, 2013, 06:30 PM
Having worked with finger print scanners, none are foolproof.

But let me address some things first. Thieves won't likly cut fingers off. Instead, take phone and demand you unlock it and remove your fingerprint from it. Don't agree, they break something or poke you with something sharp. Repeat until you either can't move or capitulate. No need for the finger.

But let's say they take the finger. Several people said it would be no use due to temperature and pulse. Fine, anyone willing to cut someone's finger off will have no problem pealing the skin off of it after they have gotten away. Then they just place that piece of skin on their finger. Now it has a pulse and the right temperature.

Lifting a fingerprint is easy, doesn't take much and considering the whole phone is glass, they are readily available. Transferring it to a latex glove, just about as easy. Wear glove and bingo, print, pulse and temperature.

UnfetteredMind
Sep 10, 2013, 06:31 PM
You take off your glove, and use the fingerprint reader. Simple.

Ever notice how the touchscreen on the iPhone doesn't work when you wear gloves? It was designed for use by the skin of your fingers...

Yes, which was my (unsaid) point. Just keep doing whatever you do today :) There are some special gloves that allow use of the touchscreen, but obviously those won't work with the TouchID scanner. Maybe they'll be a new set of gloves with a thumb flap, lol

xxMACxx
Sep 10, 2013, 06:31 PM
Will this also work for units with long passwords? For example, in order for me to use this with my work email I have to have the long password and not the 4 digit password.

Thanks
Michael

UnfetteredMind
Sep 10, 2013, 06:32 PM
Having worked with finger print scanners, none are foolproof.

But let me address some things first. Thieves won't likly cut fingers off. Instead, take phone and demand you unlock it and remove your fingerprint from it. Don't agree, they break something or poke you with something sharp. Repeat until you either can't move or capitulate. No need for the finger.

But let's say they take the finger. Several people said it would be no use due to temperature and pulse. Fine, anyone willing to cut someone's finger off will have no problem pealing the skin off of it after they have gotten away. Then they just place that piece of skin on their finger. Now it has a pulse and the right temperature.

Lifting a fingerprint is easy, doesn't take much and considering the whole phone is glass, they are readily available. Transferring it to a latex glove, just about as easy. Wear glove and bingo, print, pulse and temperature.

We need a test! Who's volunteering? :p

subsonix
Sep 10, 2013, 06:33 PM
Lifting a fingerprint is easy, doesn't take much and considering the whole phone is glass, they are readily available. Transferring it to a latex glove, just about as easy. Wear glove and bingo, print, pulse and temperature.

Makes it sound like some high end diamond heist, I vote for your first scenario as much more likely. The thief will use brute force to make you unlock the phone, did I mention that he also has your wallet, IDs and house keys btw. :p

bradl
Sep 10, 2013, 06:35 PM
Will this also work for units with long passwords? For example, in order for me to use this with my work email I have to have the long password and not the 4 digit password.

Thanks
Michael

Yes. That functionality is not going to be removed.

BL.

dirk gently
Sep 10, 2013, 06:37 PM
Did Apple say that?

I'd be interested in knowing how a crystal slice would focus an RF field.

No, they didn't as far as I know. I don't think this type of sensor can detect either pulse or temperature. An optical, infrared type could possibly do both. Could it be tuned/focused differently to pickup slight variations in position due to a person's pulse?

I'm also interested in this quote from the video about the sapphire "..acting as a lens to precisely focus it on your finger..". The RF is applied to the finger via the steel ring and then the variation in capacitance of the finger features are picked up by the sensor, if I understand correctly. I'm not sure where any lens/focusing is happening. It does appear to be a totally flat sapphire crystal "window", also.

xxMACxx
Sep 10, 2013, 06:38 PM
Yes. That functionality is not going to be removed.

BL.

That's really not my question... I'll rephrase it... Will the sensor be viewed as being the same/more security than the long password? I hate having to enter that long password and using my finger would be so much easier.

Thanks
Michael

CylonGlitch
Sep 10, 2013, 06:38 PM
A few good punches to the face will convince 90% of the people out there to unlock the phone for them.

But here is an instructables on how to lift a fingerprint.

http://m.instructables.com/id/Super-Glue-Fingerprint-Lifting/

As I mentioned, I have some experience with these devices; none were acceptable in terms of securing much.

But, what it may do is discourage the opportunity thief. Finds a phone at a bar, lifts it from an unwatched purse / jacket.

duneriderltr450
Sep 10, 2013, 06:42 PM
Yet hundreds of thousands of people will believe that they are prefectly secure with their so called perfect password. Whether I choose to turn it off on my phone or not is irrelevant. The blunder is Apple's marketing confusing identification and authentication, further steering people who are ignorant of basic security in the wrong direction.

How is it not secure?

carlgo
Sep 10, 2013, 06:47 PM
Right now criminals can simply threaten you to give up your typed password and there you go. What they can't do with the detector is use your phone if they simply steal it or you lose it somehow. iPhone thefts may go way down.

I hope eventually banks, etc will allow the use of the detector. I would love that, the end of passwords.

The number of people here who actually like to think they are interesting to the NSA, or anyone for that matter...

mrichmon
Sep 10, 2013, 06:57 PM
A finger is nothing! They mug people for kidneys everywhere - even places like Manchester, UK - they wouldn't even think twice about taking someone's finger.

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/robbery/kidney.asp

kurzz
Sep 10, 2013, 06:59 PM
The touch id and new camera are sellers for me. I'm getting one. :D

duneriderltr450
Sep 10, 2013, 07:00 PM
Having worked with finger print scanners, none are foolproof.

But let me address some things first. Thieves won't likly cut fingers off. Instead, take phone and demand you unlock it and remove your fingerprint from it. Don't agree, they break something or poke you with something sharp. Repeat until you either can't move or capitulate. No need for the finger.

But let's say they take the finger. Several people said it would be no use due to temperature and pulse. Fine, anyone willing to cut someone's finger off will have no problem pealing the skin off of it after they have gotten away. Then they just place that piece of skin on their finger. Now it has a pulse and the right temperature.

Lifting a fingerprint is easy, doesn't take much and considering the whole phone is glass, they are readily available. Transferring it to a latex glove, just about as easy. Wear glove and bingo, print, pulse and temperature.

I conceal carry a handgun so I don't see that being a problem. To the people that are not armed - smash phone on the ground, problem solved.

guspasho
Sep 10, 2013, 07:04 PM
Some people believe a little jealousy is actually good for a marriage since it's a byproduct of lust and desire, something missing in failing marriages. The key as for everything in life is keeping it in check and not going too far.

Jealousy is a byproduct of fear and insecurity. You can have lust and desire without jealousy, provided you are confident and secure.

mdelvecchio
Sep 10, 2013, 07:05 PM
Great invention for countries like Brazil. Now when you get robbed they won’t take just your iPhone. They will chop your finger and take it to.:eek:

do these robbers currently take your brain out? if not how do they get around the passcode? oh that's right, the don't care if its locked because they sell it to people that can wipe it.

pesc
Sep 10, 2013, 07:06 PM
Don't you think this will be replicated on the iPhone?

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Fool-a-Fingerprint-Security-System-As-Easy-/

Also, please read and understand this:
https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-9808.html#biometrics

Fingerprints are not secrets.

guspasho
Sep 10, 2013, 07:11 PM
We've really become a paranoid society. The NSA has us scared to death over any new technology that comes out.

There are already many examples of the NSA abusing its surveillance powers. And by plenty of others in recent history. Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover both used their spying powers against political opponents. There are so many precedents that its impossible to call it paranoia or anything but inevitable.

altaic
Sep 10, 2013, 07:19 PM
How is it not secure?

The answer to your question has been fielded earlier in this thread. Suffice to say, there are numerous ways to replicate fingerprints with materials that are indistinguishable to a sensor.

Alternatively, one would not even need a fake finger: get a home button/sensor, hook it up to a $200 oscilloscope and decode the communication channel to determine how the fingerprint image/data is represented, construct a signal with a $5 microcontroller which represents the fingerprint of the phone's owner (pulled from a glass or perhaps from the phone itself), and send it to the phone.

In the case the channel is encrypted (which is unclear; the keynote said only that it's stored encrypted), there is always a point closer to the actual sensors which is not encrypted, so work from there.

I'm dubious of the sensor being 3D, as stated previously in this thread. Taking a gander at patents and reading press articles, it seems the sensor is 500 pixels per sq inch-- going by the size of my IPhone 5's button, that'd be something like 16x16 pixles. Using multiple sampling methods for enhancement, perhaps that's 64x64 effective pixles. I suppose some 3D information could be extracted from the capacitive sensors by using various frequencies which have different penetration depths in skin, or otherwise respond to different types of tissue. However, the amount of data coming from so few sensors is small, and even more so when you factor in noise and unideal fingers/environments. Either way, no matter how tricky the sensor is, people can be trickier. Biometrics are not suitable for primary authentication.

dazed
Sep 10, 2013, 07:21 PM
You take off your glove, and use the fingerprint reader. Simple.

Ever notice how the touchscreen on the iPhone doesn't work when you wear gloves? It was designed for use by the skin of your fingers...

Mine always worked with gloves.

Krevnik
Sep 10, 2013, 07:30 PM
I'm also interested in this quote from the video about the sapphire "..acting as a lens to precisely focus it on your finger..". The RF is applied to the finger via the steel ring and then the variation in capacitance of the finger features are picked up by the sensor, if I understand correctly. I'm not sure where any lens/focusing is happening. It does appear to be a totally flat sapphire crystal "window", also.

The ring doesn't apply anything to the finger, it is just used as a "switch" to enable the sensor. The sensor then reads the fingerprint at that point.

But since the whole thing is capacitive, there's nothing really to focus. The frequencies for any RF being emitted by the capacitive grid are too low. Optical lenses can't focus them.

subsonix
Sep 10, 2013, 07:31 PM
Either way, no matter how tricky the sensor is, people can be trickier. Biometrics are not suitable for primary authentication.

How so, and what do you propose as a better alternative? To me it seems every bit as secure as a pass word but more convenient, which probably will make more people use it.

altaic
Sep 10, 2013, 07:34 PM
How so, and what do you propose as a better alternative? To me it seems every bit as secure as a pass word but more convenient, which probably will make more people use it.

Anything secret; biometrics are not.

subsonix
Sep 10, 2013, 07:35 PM
Anything secret; biometrics are not.

So you have nothing specific in mind, well it's better than nothing I think we can agree on. :p

guspasho
Sep 10, 2013, 07:36 PM
How is it not secure?

They can use your finger against your will, they can't use your password unless you give it to them.

currentinterest
Sep 10, 2013, 07:41 PM
I am getting a kick out of all the mugging, finger chopping scenarios. Most thefts are likely grab and run. And for those where getting into the phone is critical, my guess is putting a gun to someone's head and asking for the pass code (if not using the scanner), will likely work as well. The pass code is no more secure. Further, one can now lock up and wipe their phone, making it unsellable.

Chatter
Sep 10, 2013, 07:43 PM
I beg to differ. Why wouldn't a thief take your finger along with your iPhone? If you think otherwise, you haven't done much traveling.

You have no clue how anything works do ya? Maybe you are being intentionally dense and I missed the "//s" :rolleyes:

altaic
Sep 10, 2013, 07:49 PM
So you have nothing specific in mind, well it's better than nothing I think we can agree on. :p

There are innumerable kinds of secrets. To name a few: a secret series of letters, numbers, and symbols, or perhaps a secret way of touching your phone, or a secret noise, etc. It doesn't really matter what it is (given that the device can sense it), so long as it requires knowledge only the user has.

HenryDJP
Sep 10, 2013, 07:52 PM
Oh Apple, why would you blunder so? Fingerprints are not passwords, let alone the perfect password. Touch ID -- identification -- yes, fantastic. Authentication? No. Everything you touch now has your "secret" password on it, and it bears mentioning that changing such a password is... difficult.

Why would one need to change a password when using a fingerprint sensor? :confused:

subsonix
Sep 10, 2013, 07:56 PM
There are innumerable kinds of secrets. To name a few: a secret series of letters, numbers, and symbols, or perhaps a secret way of touching your phone, or a secret noise, etc. It doesn't really matter what it is (given that the device can sense it), so long as it requires knowledge only the user has.

Complicated procedures leads to simple pass words like 1234 or no pass word at all which we were told represented about half of the iPhones. A security measure needs to be adapted to what is protected, for example it makes no sense to spend $100 to protect $10.

JohnDoe98
Sep 10, 2013, 08:23 PM
They didn't show it, but does anyone know if you'll be able to authenticate your iCloud Keychain with your fingerprint? I had assumed this was a given when they introduced the feature, but nobody has mentioned it that I've seen.

I was thinking the same thing. I assume it is just a matter of time before this is added in.

----------

The fact that they aren't opening access to the scanning for 3rd party developers is stupid. How nice it would have been to be able to have this feature replace passwords for a multitude of apps at launch.

Can't see the logic in that decision.

Maybe it's a security issue, i.e. Apple don't trust third-party apps not to share that sensitive information. So what I think will happen is Apple will need to develop an API that lets third parties use the authentication mechanism without actually getting access to any of the fingerprint sensor data. But to develop that API takes time and will probably be a feature for iOS 8 (along with allowing iCloud Keychain access, though for that one maybe we'll see it in a point update). We know they were already rushing to finish iOS 7 as it is, pulling people off people from the OS X team, and trying to get the iPad version of iOS ready in time. Some speculated the iPad version would be delayed. So the best hypothesis is they didn't have time.

dampfnudel
Sep 10, 2013, 08:39 PM
Jealousy is a byproduct of fear and insecurity. You can have lust and desire without jealousy, provided you are confident and secure.

Extreme jealousy is a byproduct of fear and insecurity. The kind of jealousy that disrupts your life and the lives of the people you claim to love. We can't always feel confident and secure with our lives and loves. Life would be boring and predictable if we were. That's the last thing a couple needs after a few years of marriage. Let's face it, a lot of married couples stay together mainly for the sake of their children. At least that's what some studies have shown.

kdarling
Sep 10, 2013, 08:47 PM
No, they didn't as far as I know. I don't think this type of sensor can detect either pulse or temperature. An optical, infrared type could possibly do both. Could it be tuned/focused differently to pickup slight variations in position due to a person's pulse?

Pulse and heat detectors don't work when the finger is cold and the blood has withdrawn, anyway.

Instead, AuthenTec patented a couple of different spoof detectors. One is a skin impedance checker (still spoofable) and the other looks for too large a variation (https://www.google.com/patents/US20070290124) in overall variable detection parameters for the particular user.

I'm dubious of the sensor being 3D, as stated previously in this thread. Taking a gander at patents and reading press articles, it seems the sensor is 500 pixels per sq inch-- going by the size of my IPhone 5's button, that'd be something like 16x16 pixles.

It's 500 DPI, which is 250,000 antenna sensors per square inch. Edit: 500 DPI is the NIST and FBI standard for fingerprint capture and recognition.

By "3D", I think people were referring to the fact that it measures a bit below the skin surface. See diagram below.

The ring doesn't apply anything to the finger, it is just used as a "switch" to enable the sensor. The sensor then reads the fingerprint at that point.

That's what Apple's website says, but if it's an RF sensor, then the ring is almost certainly the transmitter, so of course touching it would trigger a response in the central sensor.

432462

Complicated procedures leads to simple pass words like 1234 or no pass word at all which we were told represented about half of the iPhones. A security measure needs to be adapted to what is protected, for example it makes no sense to spend $100 to protect $10.

Something I didn't see mentioned is what happens if it cannot read your finger, or if you choose swipe to unlock. I would guess you can alternatively use your PIN.

If so, then the reader is just a convenience item, not a real security feature... and people can still goof up by using 1234 as a PIN :)

dirk gently
Sep 10, 2013, 08:56 PM
The ring doesn't apply anything to the finger, it is just used as a "switch" to enable the sensor. The sensor then reads the fingerprint at that point.

But since the whole thing is capacitive, there's nothing really to focus. The frequencies for any RF being emitted by the capacitive grid are too low. Optical lenses can't focus them.

I don't think that is correct. Look at the original patents from AuthenTec.

In nearly all RF field sensors, a ring disposed around the sensor array acts as the electrode that drives the low frequency RF signal into the finger, which is attenuated by ridges and valleys in the print and finally captured by AC sensors as a high quality image.

Why would they have had to add a stainless steel ring to the phone if it was just a switch to tell the sensor to turn on? Makes zero sense.

J.acks
Sep 10, 2013, 09:15 PM
Well. If you guys worried that your finger getting chopped off, why not just don't use the fingerprint?

I had an Acer laptop who has fingerprint sensor which I don't even bother to install.

Dionte
Sep 10, 2013, 09:18 PM
No Pre-orders :eek:

unplugme71
Sep 10, 2013, 09:45 PM
This worries me. One day Apple will be forced to upload and send fingerprint data to our government to track citizens and terrorists.

charlituna
Sep 10, 2013, 10:02 PM
The potential problem is that for a thief to access - and sell - the phone, they require your finger. So now they'll need more than just your phone!


And your password and Id for iCloud and a way to make sure you don't have time to change them before he does, assuming he even considers that you turned on activation lock.

CFreymarc
Sep 10, 2013, 10:03 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

That is not a joke but a serious question.

I have been involved with the development of enterprise fingerprint access scanners. Installations were mostly buildings or wings of buildings for restricted access. Demographically, a lot of there installations are in "developing" countries where they don't trust lower class individuals with keys be it mechanical or electronic. Many workers have sold keys they were given for more than the job they are working in the facility.

But yes, there have been situations where fingers have been cut off with sheers for unauthorized access to a facility. I don't know of any domestic US cases but it has happened in South American countries. Issue is that unless keep the finger refrigerated or frozen, the flesh undergoes necrosis where the fingerprint deforms and the minutiae point pattern does not match that of the living finger.

IMO, we are going to see less than expected adoption of this fingerprint access. Also, I'm sure some bastards will start-up urban legends about fingers cut off by attackers to access an iPhone. I'm not planning to use the fingerprint scanner at all and keep with the PIN codes.

Also, the solution that has a lot better approach is a Bluetooth 4.0 key fob like the Unikey Kevo and the Proximo. Let them rip off your iPhone. If they didn't get the fob elsewhere on you, can't get access.

Biometrics such as fingerprint scanning is a very double edged sword. The question to keep on asking is was your body intended to have that function?

charlituna
Sep 10, 2013, 10:11 PM
So what happens if you need to wear gloves? (skiing, hospital or factory/fab clean room, etc.)

You use a standard passcode if your job requires gloves.

----------

The fact that they aren't opening access to the scanning for 3rd party developers is stupid.

Right now. Best to get the bugs out before they start creating profiles, letting other apps use it etc.

----------

Right now criminals can simply threaten you to give up your typed password and there you go. What they can't do with the detector is use your phone if they simply steal it or you lose it somehow. iPhone thefts may go way down.


I would love to see stats on how many stolen phones are muggings versus grabbed out of hands, pickpockets, snatched off tables or out of cars

Trent0341
Sep 10, 2013, 10:17 PM
Seriously... One of the stupidest threads I've ever read.

phoenixsan
Sep 10, 2013, 10:26 PM
thieves deterrent.....better than that?....A small electrical discharge when unauthorized people intends to access your iPhone.....:D


:):apple:

DollaTwentyFive
Sep 10, 2013, 10:39 PM
I'm hoping that thieves won't go to the extreme of finger chopping. After all, right now if your phone is password/code protected they usually just plug it into iTunes and reset. Why deal with the hassle of cutting off someone's finger?

On a potentially more realistic scenario - several years ago, I was involved in a skiing accident where I nearly destroyed my right hand. It was banadaged for nearly two months. I realize that one can put many fingerprints into the iPhone so that the left or right thumb, fingers, etc can be used. My question is this - suppose I run into a scenario where my fingerprint is not available. Like the bandage situation. Will there be a backup way to enter a password or pass code? I saw on the video that when in iTunes it said "scan fingerprint" but there was also an option to enter password. Will this be available for phone unlocking as well?

zedzded
Sep 10, 2013, 11:07 PM
I already know my wife's code and she knows mine.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lGmM7U2b1hc/TrnfsydujgI/AAAAAAAAB4w/S5yetY4x-mY/s320/bradybobreedflorence-henderson114.jpg

AlphaDeuce
Sep 10, 2013, 11:23 PM
I wonder if you you have the option to setup two factor security where you have to scan your finger and then enter a passcode.

heimo
Sep 10, 2013, 11:39 PM
Seriously... One of the stupidest threads I've ever read.

No, it's a serious question. I work for a very secret military facility and often carry secret information about weapon systems and attack plans on my iPhone. Now, if I use my fingerprint to unlock iPhone, terrorists can make a tiny autonomous quadrocopter to track down me, chop off my fingers while I'm sleeping, and then use a secret transporter technology to steel my iPhone. Then they will be able to use my fingers to access my Amazon account history!

It's a serious scenario! This fingerprint unlocking feature will never be pragmatic for me. It's way too dangerous. I'm sticking with my iPhone 3GS.

CylonGlitch
Sep 10, 2013, 11:50 PM
No, it's a serious question. I work for a very secret military facility and often carry secret information about weapon systems and attack plans on my iPhone. Now, if I use my fingerprint to unlock iPhone, terrorists can make a tiny autonomous quadrocopter to track down me, chop off my fingers while I'm sleeping, and then use a secret transporter technology to steel my iPhone. Then they will be able to use my fingers to access my Amazon account history!

I sure hope you're not serious. Secret information should never be on a phone or any other type of mobile media without it being properly encrypted and / or controlled. FSO might have to have a talk with you.

Trent0341
Sep 10, 2013, 11:54 PM
No, it's a serious question. I work for a very secret military facility and often carry secret information about weapon systems and attack plans on my iPhone. Now, if I use my fingerprint to unlock iPhone, terrorists can make a tiny autonomous quadrocopter to track down me, chop off my fingers while I'm sleeping, and then use a secret transporter technology to steel my iPhone. Then they will be able to use my fingers to access my Amazon account history!

It's a serious scenario! This fingerprint unlocking feature will never be pragmatic for me. It's way too dangerous. I'm sticking with my iPhone 3GS.

I actually did laugh out loud

chairguru22
Sep 11, 2013, 12:04 AM
To the people thinking that the NSA will now have your fingerprints and you'll be tracked...
1) You're assuming you are important enough that the NSA would care about you. You are nobody. NSA could care less about YOU.
2) Through various channels (police, customs), NSA probably has your fingerprint already.

To the people who think someone can now chop off your finger or lift your fingerprint off your coffee mug...
1) You watch too many spy movies
2) With a traditional password, someone could still access it by putting a gun to your head and asking you.

BvizioN
Sep 11, 2013, 12:46 AM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

It may nbot work with dead finger.
Becisdes..... why such a drama? Geee!!!

mbh
Sep 11, 2013, 01:39 AM
When you program the phone use one finger and then when you get mugged have the mugger chop off a different finger. He won't be able to use your finger to get into the phone! Boy will he be mad when he finds out how you tricked him!



:rolleyes:

sinfonye
Sep 11, 2013, 03:03 AM
If taking your phone by threat of harm, then you could be threatened just the same to enter your code and unlock the phone. However, the police angle is interesting (i.e. "we held you down and unlocked your phone, so what, it's your word against ours").

I suggest you use your left little finger, and activate the "erase after ten failed accesses" option...

AppleInTheMud
Sep 11, 2013, 03:16 AM
That little fingerprint video tricked me. Saw it without sound. Thought you had to learn it 100 times, before it would accept your fingerprint. Im feeling a little stupid right know :-D

Was way to early in the morning for me :-D

Rav7
Sep 11, 2013, 04:43 AM
The problem I see is that other people can force you to press your thumb to the iPhone and unlock it (police or even rowdy friends who want to look at something on your phone and can hold you down). So for those of us who have sensitive info on our phone, I guess we're still going to be using the passcode.

Why do yiu think police or rowdy friends can't force you and take your pass code and unlock the phone ? :rolleyes:

----------

No, it's a serious question. I work for a very secret military facility and often carry secret information about weapon systems and attack plans on my iPhone. Now, if I use my fingerprint to unlock iPhone, terrorists can make a tiny autonomous quadrocopter to track down me, chop off my fingers while I'm sleeping, and then use a secret transporter technology to steel my iPhone. Then they will be able to use my fingers to access my Amazon account history!

It's a serious scenario! This fingerprint unlocking feature will never be pragmatic for me. It's way too dangerous. I'm sticking with my iPhone 3GS.

I think the terrorist must have already read your this comment here on macrumors too . Since you are too important for them they are already tracking you . Time to change to a nokia asha phone it can save your finger.

gnasher729
Sep 11, 2013, 04:58 AM
Why do yiu think police or rowdy friends can't force you and take your pass code and unlock the phone ? :rolleyes:

Police: Any evidence obtained in that way would be totally inadmissible, and the police officer doing it would be in deep trouble.

Rowdy "friends": Friends are not going to take your passcode and unlock your phone. So we are talking about bullies here. I am quite sure that the laws that make hacking into computers a serious crime fully apply to the situation where unauthorised access to a computer is taken by force.

Of course that goes for passcode and fingerprint sensor in exactly the same way. And I'd say that the jealous partner unlocking your phone while you sleep would also be committing a serious offence. Which may produce an interesting situation if they find something and want a divorce and lots of your money.

----------

This worries me. One day Apple will be forced to upload and send fingerprint data to our government to track citizens and terrorists.

If that happened, all phone manufacturers would be forced to add fingerprint sensors as well.

As it is, I'm quite sure that Apple designed this so the phone is actually not capable of sending that information anywhere. You would have a chip with three functions:

1. Store fingerprint information from the sensor.
2. Erase fingerprint information.
3. Compare stored information with fingerprint information from the sensor.

No function to report the information.

jrsower
Sep 11, 2013, 05:04 AM
I've always covered my iphone with a sturdy case. Right now I'm using Ballistic's case and it's saved me a couple of times when I've dropped it getting out of the truck.

I'm thinking that the fingerprint sensor now makes it impossible to use a strong case because you can't get your finger down to the sensor.

Anybody else thought about this? Thoughts?

CosmoPilot
Sep 11, 2013, 05:49 AM
For all you concerned about a thief forcing you to unlock your iphone or chopping off a finger, 3 points:

1. Thiefs do not force people to input their passcodes presently! What makes you think the fingerprint is any different.

2. A criminal content to chop off a finger? At this point, your phone is the least of your concerns. I'd be more worried about, credit cards/wallet/purse, murder, rape, etc.

3. Finally, Activation Lock. Standard on iOS7! Read up on it. This is the true theft deterrent. Once word hits the street that iPhones are useless with Activation Lock enabled, thefts of iPhones (iPhone picking) will take a nose dive!

4. I know I said 3 points, but whatever. If you're still not convinced...don't enable Touch ID and use the 5S like any other iPhone.

acedout
Sep 11, 2013, 06:08 AM
So we need an option to only have the finger print scanner active on during certain hours or the day (and with an additional time-out). That would reduce the risk of the at-sleep scenarios being played out.

On a timeout, or after these hours, a password would be required.

----------

For all you concerned about a thief forcing you to unlock your iphone or chopping off a finger, 3 points:

1. Thiefs do not force people to input their passcodes presently! What makes you think the fingerprint is any different.

2. A criminal content to chop off a finger? At this point, your phone is the least of your concerns. I'd be more worried about, credit cards/wallet/purse, murder, rape, etc.

3. Finally, Activation Lock. Standard on iOS7! Read up on it. This is the true theft deterrent. Once word hits the street that iPhones are useless with Activation Lock enabled, thefts of iPhones (iPhone picking) will take a nose dive!

4. I know I said 3 points, but whatever. If you're still not convinced...don't enable Touch ID and use the 5S like any other iPhone.

On point 3, wrong if they've 'stolen' your finger (although hopefully that part will still required a passcode).

itguy06
Sep 11, 2013, 07:48 AM
been a loyal iphone customer since 1st gen to the IP5 but now it's getting boring with the annual little upgrade comparing to the rest of the industry. if they do'nt have some innovative anytime soon, they will lose many more customers. i have 4 lines, 2 ip4s & 2 ip5.... think i'll wait until our contract is over and try something more INNOVATIVE and bigger.

Just curious what you think others offer in the way of innovation? Cause they are all pretty much the same these days. About the only one innovating is Nokia with that huge sensor although all that does is make crops good.

And I'm not sure I'd want anything bigger. The Samsungs are too big and you look like a dork using them.

jtmarine73
Sep 11, 2013, 08:03 AM
What about lifeproof \ otter box cases that cover the home button to make your phone waterproof. I love my iPhone but can't afford to replace it every time I drop it (even with insurance). Will these companies be able to make a clear home button on their cases for the sensor to work?

inscrewtable
Sep 11, 2013, 08:14 AM
Dear god as someone has all ready said, it detects temperature and plus, a severed finger or a print of your print is no use.

But what if the bandit doesn't know a chopped off finger won't work. Keep this thread bookmarked and tell them to check it on the iPhone.

pondosinatra
Sep 11, 2013, 08:50 AM
...and now the NSA has your fingerprints...

----------

...
2) Through various channels (police, customs), NSA probably has your fingerprint already...

Not unless you've been arrested or are not a US (or Canadian) citizen, then no, they won't.

ptb42
Sep 11, 2013, 08:53 AM
The NSA probably already has my fingerprints from the numerous times I've gone through immigration at JFK, so that can't be much of a concern.

The NSA doesn't care about your fingerprints.

The FBI maintains the fingerprint database. US Customs and Border Patrol runs the immigration checkpoint.

pondosinatra
Sep 11, 2013, 08:54 AM
The NSA doesn't care about your fingerprints.

The FBI maintains the fingerprint database. US Customs and Border Patrol runs the immigration checkpoint.

And they never share data... :rolleyes:

Gudi
Sep 11, 2013, 08:56 AM
Yeah - and China, Africa, Latin America, Eastern Europe, Russia, South East Asia, US/EU cities -- just about everywhere actually -- except for maybe rural Europe and North America, and Japan.
Yeah, why should someone in Japan fear for their fingers?
Its not as if cutting fingers is a tradition over there.

Have a look. (http://www.google.com/imghp?q=Yubitsume)

ptb42
Sep 11, 2013, 08:59 AM
No, it's a serious question. I work for a very secret military facility and often carry secret information about weapon systems and attack plans on my iPhone.

I thought it was funny. But, for the other people out there that don't know any better, IT'S A JOKE.

The US government has very strict rules about handling and storing classified information. If you get caught storing it on an unapproved device (i.e. an iPhone), you can go to jail.

Anyone that actually has access to classified info knows this. And if it's REALLY secret, they can't even admit they have access.

158273
Sep 11, 2013, 09:27 AM
If taking your phone by threat of harm, then you could be threatened just the same to enter your code and unlock the phone. However, the police angle is interesting (i.e. "we held you down and unlocked your phone, so what, it's your word against ours").

Exactly, forcing someone to give up their passcode at least requires threat of harm, which the abuser might not follow through with for fear of evidence, whereas unlocking via Touch ID only requires some physical force to hold you down.

laughingboy
Sep 11, 2013, 10:00 AM
This thread is so amusing.

How many people have chopped off a finger? I'm sure it's not that simple unless you're in the movies.

Chopping chicken bones isn't even that easy, I'm sure a finger is harder especially since the person will be fighting like crazy.

This is an odd planet...

AaronEdwards
Sep 11, 2013, 10:13 AM
On a college campus when students find a passed out student with an iPhone 5S then they can not only take photos of the student, they can now take them with his/her own phone and then email them to all his/her contacts...

-----

All the (p)reviews seem to agree that it produces virtually no false negatives (i.e., failing to recognize your own fingerprint). But I'm curious as to how often it generates false positives (i.e., lets someone else into your phone).

Exactly. I doubt that the technique behind is so good that there is no false negatives OR false positives. There will be stories about people being able to unlock someone else's 5S, only question is, how many?

-----

Apple says that any fingerprint data won't be transmitted from the phone, this also means that a rather interesting feature cant be added to the Find My iPhone service; after you have reported your 5S stolen, the phone would transmit any fingerprint data to Apple.

158273
Sep 11, 2013, 10:26 AM
A lot of people are focusing on whether Touch ID will recognize your fingerprint or whether you're going to be locked out of your phone. And that if it recognizes your fingerprint, therefore it's a success and not a touchgate.

But the real test is yet to come: will Touch ID reject foreign fingerprints every single time? It's one thing to have your fingerprint recognized successfully, but if the matching algorithm is too lax and allows any "similar" fingerprint to access your phone, then we've got a problem.

CosmoPilot
Sep 11, 2013, 10:59 AM
So we need an option to only have the finger print scanner active on during certain hours or the day (and with an additional time-out). That would reduce the risk of the at-sleep scenarios being played out.

On a timeout, or after these hours, a password would be required.

----------



On point 3, wrong if they've 'stolen' your finger (although hopefully that part will still required a passcode).

Activation Lock requires your unique Apple ID and Password. This will not be tied to Touch ID, because it works when the phone is put into DFU.

I swear, Apple throws great tech out there claiming half of its users don't even use a passcodes and the conspiracy theorists come out in droves talking about chopped off fingers and passed out college kids! But don't explain how these same criminal masterminds don't force users to pony up passcodes or discuss how many college kids don't have passcodes now and still survive.

At the end of the day, if you don't trust it...don't enable it. It's an OPTION, not a requirement!!!

158273
Sep 11, 2013, 11:12 AM
Why do you think police or rowdy friends can't force you and take your passcode and unlock the phone ? :rolleyes:

Taking information from someone's mind requires threat of harm, which rowdy friends won't be willing to actually follow through on. Whereas Touch ID only requires a bit of physical force and can be passed off as "Oh, we were just playing around, we just wanted to see your photos" / what you were writing down in your notes."

For the regular user who never puts a password on their devices anyway, this will certainly be a step up though.

tlevier
Sep 11, 2013, 11:17 AM
But is it a rant?

Look, first thing is first. Adding Touch ID is great. It's another option of convenience for those that can and will use it. With that said, here's what you should consider.

Touch ID allows for 5 prints to be stored. Maybe 3 of yours, 1 for your wife and 1 for your kid.

I'm eager to learn how Touch ID responds to a paper cut or a splinter. If you stored only 1 print and relied on that finger, it would suck to be locked out of your own phone because you got a splinter. Always have a back up print. To deal with this, one would think that Touch ID and Passcode could be used simultaneously. I would love to set up a complex pass-phrase on my phone, but I don't currently because I don't want to re-enter it 15 times a day. If I could short-cut that complex pass-phrase most of the time with Touch ID, great! Now we're getting somewhere.

Additionally, if something happens to your fingers, such as grabbing hot metal for no good reason, and you burn the skin off, you have a recourse to access your device.

So, let's move on...

You've set your kid up to use your device. Each print should have permissions. I would want my kid to be able to unlock my device, but not buy apps on the app store. Additionally, to address the police concerns raised previously (and I originally thought of this too) I would want one of my prints to lock down the device and Touch ID. Doing this would then require my complex pass-phrase or pass-phrase/Touch ID combo.

However, if Touch ID replaces pass-phrase and passcode when used, then it is as simple as being restrained while someone scans in your print.

To give Apple some props though, I'm glad the prints are only ever stored in the device and never transferred out. That there's actual physical security in the chip to protect the data from becoming compromised. Great job!

purplesaber
Sep 11, 2013, 11:52 AM
They should use this technology for guns.

tlevier
Sep 11, 2013, 11:58 AM
They should use this technology for guns.

This makes no sense.

purplesaber
Sep 11, 2013, 12:00 PM
This makes no sense.

Sorry for not explaining -- I meant that having a fingerprint identification system on a gun or firearm (essentially locking the gun to the rightful owner) seems like a good idea to me and would cut down on accidents, theft, and crimes involving guns.

twigman08
Sep 11, 2013, 12:34 PM
Future breaking news story: Man knocked unconscious by thief. Thief steals man's iPhone only after using man's finger to unlock it. Man sues Apple.

Sad thing: With how people are it would more than likely happen....

----------

Sorry for not explaining -- I meant that having a fingerprint identification system on a gun or firearm (essentially locking the gun to the rightful owner) seems like a good idea to me and would cut down on accidents, theft, and crimes involving guns.

Like a Smart Gun?
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/bulletin/smart-guns-controlled-by-fingerprint-production-to-begin/18647

purplesaber
Sep 11, 2013, 12:51 PM
That's is what I was thinking about -- glad to hear there are companies working on it!

manu chao
Sep 11, 2013, 12:57 PM
I beg to differ. Why wouldn't a thief take your finger along with your iPhone? If you think otherwise, you haven't done much traveling.
If a thief is willing to use violence they might as well just threaten you to cut of a finger if you don't tell them the passcode.

AaronEdwards
Sep 11, 2013, 01:31 PM
If a thief is willing to use violence they might as well just threaten you to cut of a finger if you don't tell them the passcode.

The violence needed to press someone's finger (that's still attached to their hand) onto the sensor is most likely nowhere near the violence needed to get the same person to tell you the passcode.


A lot of people are focusing on whether Touch ID will recognize your fingerprint or whether you're going to be locked out of your phone. And that if it recognizes your fingerprint, therefore it's a success and not a touchgate.

But the real test is yet to come: will Touch ID reject foreign fingerprints every single time? It's one thing to have your fingerprint recognized successfully, but if the matching algorithm is too lax and allows any "similar" fingerprint to access your phone, then we've got a problem.

Most likely the people behind it prioritized keeping false negatives down, that is you not being able to unlock your own iPhone. As long as the phone only can be unlocked with a print from a real finger still attached to a live body (and that remains to be seen), false positives (being able to unlock someone else's iPhone with your finger) as way to get access to a certain phone will not be viable. But there will be stories about people finding out that someone else can unlock their 5S.

Pro31
Sep 11, 2013, 02:19 PM
I already know my wife's code and she knows mine. Don't give your spouse a reason to be jealous and this won't be a issue.

What if you work for an organization with sensitive data? Your spouse isn't allowed to see that. So really there are applications where what you do is not applicable.

bradl
Sep 11, 2013, 02:24 PM
What if you work for an organization with sensitive data? Your spouse isn't allowed to see that. So really there are applications where what you do is not applicable.

Should you be using your personal iPhone for work? If that data is that sensitive, you should keep those separate. Again, not something you should be sharing to begin with. Convenience of having a single phone should not trump the security of your work or your job.

BL.

SrWebDeveloper
Sep 11, 2013, 02:33 PM
If somebody chops off your finger, can they use it to unlock your iPhone? :eek:

Definitely a new form of hacking. Literally.

MacDav
Sep 11, 2013, 03:53 PM
Yes

Are you sure? I've read it only works with a living finger. Also, how do they know which finger to cut off? ;)

MacDav
Sep 11, 2013, 04:30 PM
Thief (holding a gun to my head): "Which finger do you use to unlock your phone, so I can chop it off and unlock your phone?
Me: Hey, I have a great idea. I'll just unlock it for you and turn off any authentication so you can be on your way. Have a nice day now. :)

This whole chopping off the finger scenario is not only paranoid but just plain silly. Also. if they snuck up and knocked you out how would they know which finger to chop off, and why would they chop any fingers off when they can just use your fingers while they are still connected? Paranoia makes you think illogically. ;)

chairguru22
Sep 11, 2013, 06:05 PM
...and now the NSA has your fingerprints...

----------



Not unless you've been arrested or are not a US (or Canadian) citizen, then no, they won't.

Been to Disney World lately? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfjLwdutGw

----------

You guys worried about the NSA are ridiculous...

If you are that paranoid, DON'T USE IT!

and don't go to Disney World either, they've been collecting finger prints: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfjLwdutGw

bradl
Sep 11, 2013, 06:13 PM
Been to Disney World lately? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfjLwdutGw

----------

You guys worried about the NSA are ridiculous...

If you are that paranoid, DON'T USE IT!

and don't go to Disney World either, they've been collecting finger prints: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWfjLwdutGw

I still wonder why they nor their parents didn't speak up when they took hand, finger, and footprints the day they were born. If they are this paranoid now, they should have been just as paranoid when they were younger.

BL.

ConfusedChris
Sep 11, 2013, 06:55 PM
Once a stolen phone is wiped remotely with Find My Phone it is effectively useless. (iOS 7) Get the word on the street.

SHirsch999
Sep 11, 2013, 08:26 PM
Image (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lGmM7U2b1hc/TrnfsydujgI/AAAAAAAAB4w/S5yetY4x-mY/s320/bradybobreedflorence-henderson114.jpg)

First of all, don't diss "The Brady Bunch"! Awesome show! :D
Second, I'm not sure why us each having the others pass code is a big deal. I set up the code for both phones, so of course I would have hers. She has mine because she often needs to use my phone when we are out somewhere, or even at home, and Thing 1 or Thing 2 are using hers. Even the kids know our passwords.

Sir Cecil
Sep 11, 2013, 08:34 PM
So, if your hand is trapped due to a car crash, or a work accident, or being stuck in an earthquake-damaged apartment, you can't use your phone to call for help?
Frustrating if your hand gets bitten off by a shark and after you've bravely struggled back to shore against the odds, you can't use the iPhone to summon assistance.

zedzded
Sep 11, 2013, 08:56 PM
First of all, don't diss "The Brady Bunch"! Awesome show! :D
Second, I'm not sure why us each having the others pass code is a big deal. I set up the code for both phones, so of course I would have hers. She has mine because she often needs to use my phone when we are out somewhere, or even at home, and Thing 1 or Thing 2 are using hers. Even the kids know our passwords.

It's ok I was just kidding :)

kdarling
Sep 12, 2013, 06:01 AM
I already know my wife's code and she knows mine. Don't give your spouse a reason to be jealous and this won't be a issue.

There are good reasons not to give a spouse your security code.

A common example is when the phone contains confidential business or military information. There are millions of people in that situation. Giving out the code is cause for dismissal or loss of clearance or worse.

This is where a setup like Samsung's Knox version of Android is useful. Two separate internal secure partitions on the same phone: one side for work, one side for personal use.

kdarling
Sep 12, 2013, 06:58 AM
Been to Disney World lately?

Disney's ticket authentication fingerprint system temporarily stores the association of a finger to a ticket, so that multiple people cannot use the same pass.

According to Disney, that info is purged from their database after the ticket expires. (Because it's useless by itself.)

ptb42
Sep 12, 2013, 10:39 AM
They should use this technology for guns.

Sounds like a good idea, until you ask: what if an authorized user is locked out? The iPhone will require a passcode, so there is always a failsafe. If you have a need to fire a gun in self-defense, will you have time to do that?

The folks that think this is such a good idea never ask law enforcement or military. They roundly reject them, due to the lack of guaranteed reliability. Of course, some think it's a great idea for the people that might be shooting at them -- you might want to consider why that is true.

Pro31
Sep 12, 2013, 11:59 AM
Should you be using your personal iPhone for work? If that data is that sensitive, you should keep those separate. Again, not something you should be sharing to begin with. Convenience of having a single phone should not trump the security of your work or your job.

BL.

Who says the iphone is a personal one? Companies offer those as well. Never said anything about convenience of having one phone or anything else that you mentioned. I only mentioned the fact that just because one person shares their passcode with their spouse, it doesn't mean everyone can.

i4m
Sep 12, 2013, 01:52 PM
I beg to differ. Why wouldn't a thief take your finger along with your iPhone? If you think otherwise, you haven't done much traveling.

Have you done much traveling? Show me your hands, how many fingers are missing?

cmichaelb
Sep 12, 2013, 01:54 PM
They should use this technology for guns.

They've tried biometrics in guns. The electronics don't hold up to the abuse they receive from repeated firings.

Not to mention, why would you need it?

i4m
Sep 12, 2013, 01:57 PM
The potential problem is that for a thief to access - and sell - the phone, they require your finger. So now they'll need more than just your phone!

I doubt this would ever happen but in theory…

Also, if Apple's touch ID works well, other companies will be implementing it in everything - computers, cars, doors… And then your finger will become a very desirable object for thieves.


There is even more to consider if you want to go down this road.

They never know which finger you registered, so they will need the whole hand. On the other hand (excuse the pun), it may be quicker to force you to unlock than chop off the finger.

mylop
Sep 12, 2013, 02:08 PM
I read that every 48hrs the phone would ask you to input your passcode. After a couple of weeks that would annoy me and I'd end up just turning off the fingerprint scanner leaving my phone unsecured again (like it's been since day one).

For me, remote lock/wipe via text is a far more convenient feature, as well as remote ring on maximum volume (in case it was lost/stolen when in silent) and find my phone.

J. Jizzle
Sep 13, 2013, 08:15 AM
I wonder how well Touch ID will work if someone puts a case on the 5S. I myself have always used Otter Box cases, which tend to cover up the iPhone's home button, so unless Otter Box is planning on re-designing their cases specifically for the 5S's Touch ID feature, I don't see it working all that well if someone wants to use a case.

Pez555
Sep 14, 2013, 02:11 PM
What are you going to use that's better than the sapphire crystal top layer they already use?

it's not that, i just dont like the feel of the home button with a screen protector on, too depressed. Prefer a flush finish with a home button protector to match the thickness of the screen protector.

chairguru22
Sep 14, 2013, 02:29 PM
Disney's ticket authentication fingerprint system temporarily stores the association of a finger to a ticket, so that multiple people cannot use the same pass.

According to Disney, that info is purged from their database after the ticket expires. (Because it's useless by itself.)

So you believe Disney when it tells you it doesn't save fingerprint data but don't believe Apple? :rolleyes:

----------

I still wonder why they nor their parents didn't speak up when they took hand, finger, and footprints the day they were born. If they are this paranoid now, they should have been just as paranoid when they were younger.

BL.

All those Thanksgiving handprint turkeys... NSA was collecting data!

uttamo
Sep 14, 2013, 05:59 PM
Does anyone know whether you have to press the home button before unlocking the phone with you fingerprint?

Can you simply put your finger on the home button and the iPhone will go Sleep>Home screen (or Sleep>Lock screen>Home screen)? Or do you have to press the home button first to wake it and then allow it to read your fingerprint? Can it just read your fingerprint while sleeping, as the ring around it detects that a finger is in contact?

Did not know where to post this question so apologies if it's the wrong forum or if it's been asked before. Thanks.

kdarling
Sep 14, 2013, 06:35 PM
So you believe Disney when it tells you it doesn't save fingerprint data but don't believe Apple? :rolleyes:

I didn't say anything about Apple in my post.

It was only about what Disney does.

shamino
Sep 22, 2013, 10:17 AM
Trust me on this one and most of the non-haters know this too, if Samsung had've put out the same plethora of small goodies on their GS4 as Apple did with the iPhone 5S today the Fandroids would've called it "Innovation". Sadly Apple gets crapped on for it.
Bingo! Fingerprint scanners have been in laptops and phones for quite some time now. Nobody was complaining about chopped-off fingers and NSA surveilence when it was HP, Dell or Motorola. But when Apple ships a product, it becomes a threat to personal safety?

The US Government already has that along with my DNA when I was in the service. So I gave up a long time ago and just go with the flow. As long as you keep your nose clean you have nothing to worry about.
That might have been true once upon a time, but not anymore. Go read the news. The IRS has been conducting audits against people whose politics disgree with the Administration. Can you honestly say that you have never said or publicly written anything anyone in the government would like to punish you for?

Is there an off switch? Can you revert to passcode?
It would be pretty useless if Apple disabled all other security mechanisms and forced everybody to use the scanner or have no security at all.

Keep in mind that iOS 7 will be running on many devices without fingerprint scanners (4, 4S, 5 and 5c, as well as iPads and iPod Touches) so the other authentication methods are still going to be in the software. I really don't think Apple is going to deliberately disable this software on a 5s.

Will using a password still be an option even if you have the fingerprint scanner enabled?
Good question. On Android, if you enable biometric authentication (e.g. fingerprints on a Motorol Atrix, or facial recognition on an LG Optimus), you are required to register a backup passcode/passphrase. They recognize that biometrics don't always work, and that you sometimes need to grant another person access. I assume Apple has something similar, but I haven't tried it in person to be certain.

Exactly what I was thinking, its very possible a thief can club you over the head ... Same goes for being drugged ... I'll stick with passcode. I feel its more secure.
If you're seriously concerned about this, what makes you think they won't drug you and make you reveal your passcode? Or that they won't just put a gun to your head and make you give it up that way? And if the information is so sensitive that you're willing to die for it, why the ******* would you put it on your phone in the first place?

They can use your finger against your will, they can't use your password unless you give it to them.
See my previous reply. Will you be willing to die to deny them access? And if so, what are you putting on the phone that could possibly be that important?

If so, then the reader is just a convenience item, not a real security feature... and people can still goof up by using 1234 as a PIN :)
I believe that is a given, Based on the presentation, Apple's concern is not with bulletproof security, but in dealing with the large number of people who don't use any security at all.

No, it's a serious question. I work for a very secret military facility and often carry secret information about weapon systems and attack plans on my iPhone. ...
Of course, this is a joke. If you really had such information, you wouldn't be allowed to tell us you had it. And you certainly wouldn't be allowed to store it on a phone. And you probably wouldn't be allowed to remove the information from its secured facility without using an approved secure courier to deliver it to its destination in another secured facility.

As it is, I'm quite sure that Apple designed this so the phone is actually not capable of sending that information anywhere.
According to Apple, fingerprint data is not accessible by appsand is not transmitted to iCloud. See http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2013/09/10Apple-Announces-iPhone-5s-The-Most-Forward-Thinking-Smartphone-in-the-World.html.:
...All fingerprint information is encrypted and stored securely in the Secure Enclave inside the A7 chip on the iPhone 5s; it’s never stored on Apple servers or backed up to iCloud®.


They should use this technology for guns.It's been researched. The big problem is that it's not reliable. You don't want the legitimate owner to be locked out in an emergency.

Additionally, the shock and vibration of firing a gun tends to damage the electronics, so you pretty much only get one or two shots before the gun needs to be serviced. That makes for a pretty lousy experience at the firing range.

There are good reasons not to give a spouse your security code. A common example is when the phone contains confidential business or military information.
I think people here are talking about for your personal phone. Not for something issued by your government or your employer.

I don't know about others, but I never store personal data on my work phone and I never store work data on my personal phone.

(Regarding guns) The folks that think this is such a good idea never ask law enforcement or military. They roundly reject them, due to the lack of guaranteed reliability. Of course, some think it's a great idea for the people that might be shooting at them -- you might want to consider why that is true.
Of course, guns sold illegally on the black market, where they are likely to be used to commit crimes, are not going to have ID chips. And you can be certain that those who resell stolen guns will have the know-how to disable the circuit.

lhays
Sep 22, 2013, 12:17 PM
What if i 'teach' a blank to the iphone? that is press a blank paper to it five times in a row. Will it learn to open only with no fingerprint?

Krevnik
Sep 22, 2013, 01:41 PM
What if i 'teach' a blank to the iphone? that is press a blank paper to it five times in a row. Will it learn to open only with no fingerprint?

It won't learn blanks as far as I can tell. In that case, I'd just use a pass code without any fingerprints registered. Since even if you have the fingerprint enabled, the pass code is always an option to unlock.

kdarling
Sep 22, 2013, 01:45 PM
So far, people have successfully trained it to use cat and dog paws.

Anyone try the tip of their nose yet?

(I'm not even going to ask about other body parts. But hmmm... interesting phone to use at nudist colonies.)

Krevnik
Sep 22, 2013, 02:03 PM
So far, people have successfully trained it to use cat and dog paws.

Anyone try the tip of their nose yet?

(I'm not even going to ask about other body parts. But hmmm... interesting phone to use at nudist colonies.)

It looks like as long as you can get a scan/map of the skin that is large/unique enough, it will work. It isn't so much a fingerprint sensor as a high resolution capacitance sensor that can map detail in the skin. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

Critterbug
Sep 22, 2013, 06:38 PM
Yeah - why are implementing something so potentially risky? You mention you doubt it will ever happen - that's naive - it can and will happen in many places around the world. A finger is nothing! They mug people for kidneys everywhere - even places like Manchester, UK - they wouldn't even think twice about taking someone's finger.

Furthermore if they do implement it in cars, house doors, etc. - people are going to be getting their fingers stolen all over the place in all countries. This is crazy. I guess we'll just have to thank our lucky stars they're not implementing retina scanners.

My daughter does unlock her car with her thumb.