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sk8erboy
Nov 27, 2005, 08:16 AM
Hi Ladies and Gents
I haven't posted as much as i used to since i got "Mac'd" with an Apple. =)
[ IM SO SORRY ABOUT THAT hehe. ]

Well, as some of you know, my interests have moved into the digital photography field. I came from using a Canon SLR .... [ 20 year old? ]
and now i am highly interested in a DSLR.... NIKON ONLY. [ srry ]
I have been surfing dpreview alot.
But is there any other better digital photography forums? DP doesnt really satisfy my thirst for nikon digitalness.

Besides that, i am looking for a NIKON D70 or D50.
The D50 is really in my price range; the D70 is just above it.
However i am leaning towards the D70 just for its more professional lense type, and features.
However, i have no clue where i should make this purchase. I need to buy as cheap as possible. Do any recommend a CHEAP online reliable store? Is it worth risking those ' too good to be true sites' ?
I would like to spend less than $850 on a D70+55m lens?
Does that sound legit?

Sone help me, and clear my mind of this depressiing comparison.

Every day it seems like im leaning towards the d50 just for price =(







****D70 not D70s*****
[ sorry for confusion ]



iGary
Nov 27, 2005, 09:45 AM
Hi Ladies and Gents
I haven't posted as much as i used to since i got "Mac'd" with an Apple. =)
[ IM SO SORRY ABOUT THAT hehe. ]

Well, as some of you know, my interests have moved into the digital photography field. I came from using a Canon SLR .... [ 20 year old? ]
and now i am highly interested in a DSLR.... NIKON ONLY. [ srry ]
I have been surfing dpreview alot.
But is there any other better digital photography forums? DP doesnt really satisfy my thirst for nikon digitalness.

Besides that, i am looking for a NIKON D70 or D50.
The D50 is really in my price range; the D70 is just above it.
However i am leaning towards the D70 just for its more professional lense type, and features.
However, i have no clue where i should make this purchase. I need to buy as cheap as possible. Do any recommend a CHEAP online reliable store? Is it worth risking those ' too good to be true sites' ?
I would like to spend less than $850 on a D70+55m lens?
Does that sound legit?

Sone help me, and clear my mind of this depressiing comparison.

Every day it seems like im leaning towards the d50 just for price =(







****D70 not D70s*****
[ sorry for confusion ]

Do you have Canon lenses from your old Canon SLR?

sk8erboy
Nov 27, 2005, 11:09 AM
yes i have three lenses
one telephoto
one 55mm
and one 2x

i mean they are all good. i guess?
but im limited to only getting a camera+kit
since im going with costco.
so i guess the nikon d50 is the best value?
unles you know of a place that sells the d70 foir a reasonable price?

BakedBeans
Nov 27, 2005, 11:16 AM
yes i have three lenses
one telephoto
one 55mm
and one 2x

i mean they are all good. i guess?
but im limited to only getting a camera+kit
since im going with costco.
so i guess the nikon d50 is the best value?
unles you know of a place that sells the d70 foir a reasonable price?

not being funny but why would you not want to keep those lenses and get a canon 350d to use with them? (it woulndt make sense if you had nikon lenses and was buying a conon digital either before people start :) )

can you tell us exactly what lenses they are (makes, speed etc)

sk8erboy
Nov 27, 2005, 11:49 AM
i am typing right from the words of the lenses:

(1) UNDERGROUND AUTO TELE CONVERTER 2X FOR CANON FD
(2) UNDERGROUND 1:2.8 F=135MM
(3) UGC 52mm UV 1:1.8
these all are for my CANON AE-1

any suggestions?

please keep in mind that i am limited to whatever Costco offers... which are kits only. so isnt it a good point in stepping into a foreign, new, --> Nikon territory?
I mean, ill just be duplicating lenses if i go with Canon?
correct?

thanks for all the help
i know i am a semi-noob =/

BakedBeans
Nov 27, 2005, 12:03 PM
i am typing right from the words of the lenses:

(1) UNDERGROUND AUTO TELE CONVERTER 2X FOR CANON FD
(2) UNDERGROUND 1:2.8 F=135MM
(3) UGC 52mm UV 1:1.8
these all are for my CANON AE-1

any suggestions?

please keep in mind that i am limited to whatever Costco offers... which are kits only. so isnt it a good point in stepping into a foreign, new, --> Nikon territory?
I mean, ill just be duplicating lenses if i go with Canon?
correct?

thanks for all the help
i know i am a semi-noob =/

Ok, keeping those lenses probably isnt worth deciding your camera on (dont think they will even fit.. im not expert on old lens mounts etc). canon or nikon, doesnt really matter. i personally like canon stuff better because they are slightly better in area that im concerned with. I think the kit lenses on most nikons are better than canon kits (although pretty evenly matched otherwise)

if your set on nikon the d50 will do you a treat, if you decide to go canon then 350d is a great camera, even if a bit small.

what will you be using it for.

sk8erboy
Nov 27, 2005, 12:12 PM
Mainly a passionate hobby that i have had throughout my life.
I love photographing and expression myself through pictures, portraits, etc.
I like how i cannot be judged as a person through my work of art.
I really like shooting landscapes,nature,etc more so than people.
Any suggestions?
Im so leaning towards the Nikon.... but I understand that Canon is just as superior.


What about Olympus?
how do they rank?
Do you know of any Camera places online that offer discounts?

BakedBeans
Nov 27, 2005, 12:39 PM
I like how i cannot be judged as a person through my work of art.

you and me both my friend!

Im so leaning towards the Nikon.... but I understand that Canon is just as superior.

yeah, canon are way ahead in terms of sales (but then again, so are windows - although thats totally different) and i think they are a little ahead in terms of specs too (in general) although it is all based on opinions - if your heart is set on a nikon then go for it!


What about Olympus?
how do they rank?

ive heard lots of good things about them - chip novamac will be best positioned to tell you about them.

Do you know of any Camera places online that offer discounts?

have you tried b&hvideo? i presume you are from the USA - i cant really recommend any stores there

shambolic
Nov 27, 2005, 01:20 PM
Do you know of any Camera places online that offer discounts?

B&H, Adorama and buydig.com are all decent retailers who offer low, if not "too good to be true", prices, and have the advantage of being official dealers for both Canon and Nikon, who will sell you the proper US version of the camera with the correct warranty.

I've bought Nikon gear (D70 kit, extra lens, speedlight) on three occasions from buydig (since I'm in NY, and so ordering from B&H/Adorama would mean paying sales tax) and they've delivered promptly each time with none of the "please call us to verify your order" tactics employed by the scam artists.

If you do find a deal that seems to be too good to be true, definitely check out the seller's feedback on resellerratings before placing an order.

On the subject of those super-low price outlets.. most of them are based in, shall we say, less than impressive premises (http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/) that might make you have second thoughts about entrusting them with a major purchase!

Good luck making a final choice on what to buy :-)

Clix Pix
Nov 27, 2005, 01:56 PM
B&H is an excellent online source and if you're NOT in NY you will not have to pay state taxes. Penn Camera is another excellent source. They're in DC, Maryland and Virginia, so if you live in one of those states then taxes will be collected. If you're in one of those states and near a Penn Camera store, it's worth going in there for excellent personalized and knowledgeable assistance. I would strongly urge that you purchase your new equipment at a "real" camera shop rather than a big-box store like Best Buy, Costco, etc. When you run into problems or have questions, I can guarantee that the salesman at the big-box store isn't going to be able to help!

So you're interested in Nikon? Good choice! :p (longtime Nikon owner here!) A couple of good places where Nikon equipment is discussed are Nikon Cafe (http://www.nikoncafe.com) and Nikonians (I think that's http://www.nikonian.com). As you can tell by the names, Nikon is exclusively the topic of discussion in both these sites. DPReview and Steves-digicams forums also have one specific to Nikon DSLRs.

In addition to websites, there are also several Yahoogroups lists which are devoted to Nikon cameras. I think for the most part they're divided into the specific camera models or at least categories: ie, Coolpix, DSLR, or Coolpix 8800, D-70/D70s, etc.....

You should be able to get a good price on the D70 right now, since that model has been superseded by the D70s. I would recommend that camera over the D50, although there have been some very favorable comments about the D50. The D70 has a few more features which you might miss if using a D50.

Don't forget: along with the camera, buy at least one extra battery, a couple of CF cards, a memory card reader. Yes, it's possible to download directly into the computer from the camera but it is really better and safer not to do things that way and to use a separate CF card reader.

Good luck in your decision-making and your purchase!

OTB

sk8erboy
Nov 27, 2005, 02:03 PM
so what do you think a reasonable price is for a d70 w/ average lense kit?

sk8erboy
Nov 27, 2005, 02:37 PM
does anyone have experience with: Tamron AF 28-200mm Super Zoom f/3.8-5.6 Aspherical XR IF Macro Autofocus Lens Kit ?

http://www.bwayphoto.com/product.asp?id=nkd70stmkit&pid=similar

shambolic
Nov 27, 2005, 05:14 PM
does anyone have experience with: Tamron AF 28-200mm Super Zoom f/3.8-5.6 Aspherical XR IF Macro Autofocus Lens Kit ?

http://www.bwayphoto.com/product.asp?id=nkd70stmkit&pid=similar

I'd be a little wary of Broadway Photo if I were you:

Reseller Ratings profile (http://www.resellerratings.com/seller1995-p4-s1-d1.html) (1.13 out of 10 for customer service)

Picture of the store (http://donwiss.com/pictures/BrooklynStores/h0006.htm)

(Edit: also, if you look at the product link page, on the right hand side, you'll see some incredibly overpriced accessories, e.g. $180 for a battery that retails at $40 at B+H. This is the typical scam - they'll ask you to call them, then tell you the battery isn't included, and try to get you to buy it at that price. If you don't, then suddenly the camera you want is out of stock..)

Given that the original D70 is now fairly hard to find, and the D70s body alone (w/o lens) is around $900 at reputable retailers (e.g. B+H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=381562&is=REG&addedTroughType=search)) , and your price limit is around $850, I'd suggest the following instead:

1) Get the D50 body for around $550 at a reputable retailer here (http://buydig.com/shop/product.aspx?sku=NKD50). (Price slightly higher at B+H - $600)
Compared to the D70(s) you're not missing too much - main differences I can think of are: illumination of the top LCD panel, depth of field preview button (not as essential as on a film SLR, as you can review your pictures after they're taken on the LCD), and ability to use the built-in flash as a controller for a wireless flash setup. The D50 is actually better in some ways - faster data transfer, lower noise at high ISO (apparently), etc.

2) Spend whatever you've got left (around $300) on the best lens you can afford for the money. The kit lens on the D50 is average at best, so if your budget allows you to upgrade, I'd recommend that you do so. As for which lens to choose, there are folks around here who'd be able to make better suggestions than I can (as I have only the 18-70mm DX kit lens from the D70 and the 50mm/f1.8), so I'll leave that question for someone else to answer..

Clix Pix
Nov 27, 2005, 10:47 PM
does anyone have experience with: Tamron AF 28-200mm Super Zoom f/3.8-5.6 Aspherical XR IF Macro Autofocus Lens Kit ?

http://www.bwayphoto.com/product.asp?id=nkd70stmkit&pid=similar

I think the Tamron is a fairly decent lens, albeit slow, especially at the telephoto end.... Check out reviews online before making an investment.

As for Broadway Photo: I don't know anything about them but I would agree that probably it is safest to stay away from them, regardless of what "bargains" they may seem to offer. As I said in my earlier post, go to a reliable online dealer such as B&H or Penn or go to a physical brick-and-mortar photo store in your own area. Don't go to a big-box store. Go to a "real" camera store. Yes, on the surface it may seem that you would be paying more, but believe me, in the long run, you won't....

OTB

gwuMACaddict
Nov 27, 2005, 11:00 PM
i shoot with a d70 and d100 currently...

i've also read the dpreivew opinion, and honestly- go with a d50 if you want to go nikon. you don't need to set off remote flashes, each camera has roughly the same construction (plastic), and the d50 is more noob friendly- one scroll wheel, more point and shoot settings, etc.

i saw a d50 in best buy today... it's definitely a smaller camera- also something to consider

bousozoku
Nov 27, 2005, 11:09 PM
does anyone have experience with: Tamron AF 28-200mm Super Zoom f/3.8-5.6 Aspherical XR IF Macro Autofocus Lens Kit ?

http://www.bwayphoto.com/product.asp?id=nkd70stmkit&pid=similar

Broadway Photo, Infinity Photo, and Infiniti Photo are all the same scam company. Please don't throw away your money.

As far as Olympus Digital SLRs go, I've had my E-1 for about 1.5 years and love it and the lack of 35mm legacy rubbish. No dust, no dark corners--high quality, intelligent glass.

-hh
Nov 29, 2005, 09:03 AM
Ok, keeping those lenses probably isnt worth deciding your camera on (dont think they will even fit.. im not expert on old lens mounts etc)...

The current line of Canon SLR's take the EF mount (and some dSLR's, the newer EF-S mount). These old lenses are FD mount, which *will not fit* on the EF or EF-S.


-hh

revenuee
Nov 29, 2005, 09:31 AM
D70 all the way

high frame rate, wider shutter speed range, higher flash sync,

Extreme compact flash cards are cheaper and easier to find then SD Extreme cards.

also the D70 being compact flash will allow for the use of a microdrive --- high capacity for when you are going to be shooting a lot of RAW, and believe me, once you go RAW, you won't willingly go back

efoto
Nov 29, 2005, 09:39 AM
B&H is an excellent online source and if you're NOT in NY you will not have to pay state taxes. Penn Camera is another excellent source. They're in DC, Maryland and Virginia, so if you live in one of those states then taxes will be collected. If you're in one of those states and near a Penn Camera store, it's worth going in there for excellent personalized and knowledgeable assistance. I would strongly urge that you purchase your new equipment at a "real" camera shop rather than a big-box store like Best Buy, Costco, etc. When you run into problems or have questions, I can guarantee that the salesman at the big-box store isn't going to be able to help!

Although this is a viable argument, new laws are being passed nationally (already in many states) stating that you must claim internet purchases on tax forms now and hence pay your own state taxes on all internet purchases. Many local stores will price-match reputable online retailers. I have found this to be a much better solution than complete online purchases simply because you develop a relationship with a local store and those are the people that will help you out when you stuff acts up.

I realize you were always supposed to claim online purchases, but apparently now they are making a big deal about it. So just as a reminder/warning, when you purchase online plan to pay your own state tax regardless at the end of the year. You may get away with not, but apparently there is a large move to start looking into this....

Clix Pix
Nov 29, 2005, 01:10 PM
Although this is a viable argument, new laws are being passed nationally (already in many states) stating that you must claim internet purchases on tax forms now and hence pay your own state taxes on all internet purchases.

Ah, good point and thanks for the heads-up! It wouldn't do to get into trouble with the IRS simply because one made a few online purchases.... Also it isn't right if local stores' business suffers while people are ordering from online places simply to avoid paying their state taxes.

I agree that it is much, much better to develop a relationship with a local store -- especially when it comes to photography or electronic equipment -- because they're available to answer questions and help out if any problems arise. As I said in another post, when something goes wrong with the camera you purchased online or at a Big-Box store, don't count on the guy several states away at the other end of the phone or the minimum-wage clerk at the Big-Box store to be able to provide any assistance or guidance. Without being able to handle and look at the camera or lens, it's hard for someone to provide real assistance in resolving a problem over the phone. The people working in a Big-Box store are generalists and they're working with all kinds of stuff day in and day out, but their primary purpose is to sell it. They aren't going to be able to offer much in the way of help when you bring in a faulty camera or lens or have questions. People working in a specialized store such as a camera store are trained and knowledgeable about the products sold in that store and are best able to provide help when something goes awry with that new camera or lens.

There is something to be said, too, for the hands-on experience of purchasing a camera in a local store. The one and only time I did impulsively order a camera online I lived to regret it, as once I was using it I found that it was not at all going to suit my needs or my shooting style. I had only read a few reviews of it and for some reason didn't really pay attention to some very important issues brought out in those reviews. I also did not bother to check this new camera model out in person. For some dumb reason I really didn't approach this in the right way at all and impulsively ordered the thing online. Had I gone to my local store and handled it there and talked with the people at that store about the camera's strong and weak points I would have immediately realized that it wouldn't be a good camera for me and would have saved myself a bundle of money. Lesson learned. Sure, in that instance I "saved" a little money by not paying the state taxes for that particular purchase, but in the long run it cost me a heckuva lot more in that the camera in question is now sitting unused in the cabinet.... One of these days it'll go on eBay. Never made that mistake again! Now when I'm excited about a new camera I just go to my local camera dealer...


OTB

sk8erboy
Nov 29, 2005, 02:18 PM
hmmmm...
leaning towards d50 just because of price.

....... :mad:

numediaman
Dec 1, 2005, 05:15 PM
hmmmm...
leaning towards d50 just because of price.

....... :mad:

I'm in the market as well and have decided on the D50.

Having said that, I think the Canon and the D70 are obviously fine cameras. I would say the same for the Lumix FZ30.

If I were a pro I'd spend much more money. If I had not the experience of shooting with a very nice film SLR I might spend much less.

So, in the end, the D50 seems like a good compromise. I'll buy the standard lens kit and decide later if I want another couple of lenses.

I wouldn't be mad if I were you. Everyone has to make choices. But in this case, the Nikon is a very nice camera. You are not buying Wal-Mart quality -- you are buying a lower priced DSLR from a good camera company.

The bad news: one year from now there will be even better cameras on the market at the same price point -- just like computers. And just like computers, buy the best you can afford and don't complain when a better model is introduced.

gwuMACaddict
Dec 1, 2005, 05:23 PM
D70 all the way...

....higher flash sync,



etc.

errrr.... (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0504/05042003nikond70s.asp#compared)

or they're mostly the same?

sk8erboy
Dec 1, 2005, 07:34 PM
sigh.
i saw the d50 in walmart today.

bousozoku
Dec 1, 2005, 09:09 PM
sigh.
i saw the d50 in walmart today.

That's not a terrible thing. Besides, I saw the Olympus E-300 at Wal-Mart's Sam's Club. It seems that the store buyers are trying to generate a little bit different business.

kd5boc
May 3, 2006, 04:01 AM
Well...the arguments are valid...Canon vs. Nikon.

I myself used to use my Canon AE-1P and it's 50mm 1.4 lens, but decided to try Canon and never really liked it.

I decided on Nikon, and then went to looking at digital. I still use my AE-1 for IR and B/W...fun stuff.

I was at first going to buy the d70s, but they were out of stock so I bought the d50 (Plus it was $200 off when I got it!) At that time I knew that the differences between them were:

d50 - no second command dial
d50 - no WB fine tuning
d50 - slightly updated sensor with slightly lower noise at ISO 1600 (better according to static tests, but we all know static tests do not reflect real world usage.)
d50 - no built-in wireless flash control
d50 - AF-A (camera chooses AF-C or AF-S)
d50 - Auto ISO (I use the PASM modes with the auto off 95% of the time, but when using the camera quick settings I might as well let Nikon control the ISO as well)

otherwise they are the same camera, have the same settings, and am proud to say i have NEVER regretted the decision to get the d50. I was able to buy a good SD card (which has never been filled) a bag, tripod, and Sigma 70-300 macro.

As far as the 18-55 goes, I would have liked to have had the 18-70 with it's focus meter and maybe the extra zoom, but the kit lens has satisfied EVERY requirement I have put to it. Quiet focusing, quick focusing, very close focusing, sharp pictures, and I have yet to see any lens flare or ghosting unless shooting directly into the sun. I've found myself around 18-35mm about 80% of the time and using my Sigma at 200+ for sports and macro the other 20%.

It's not the camera that makes the pictures...it's the photographer. The camera is just a tool to help.

dogbone
May 3, 2006, 04:24 AM
...why would you not want to keep those lenses and get a canon 350d to use with them?
Because he's smart enough to go for a nikon. bejeezus. :D

...if you decide to go canon then 350d is a great camera, even if a bit small.

What?! you admit in print that the Rebel (dontcha luv that name) has a pokey little toy look and feel?

EDIT: above post forgot to mention that the D70 is slightly bigger and feels a bit better. Might have a larger lcd too but I'm not sure.

tektonnic
May 3, 2006, 06:52 AM
I dunno bout the US store but the UK Apple Store was sellinthe D50 with 1gb SD card pretty cheap, might be worth having a look - also if your a student you can get educational discount from Apple (again for defo in the UK)

Abstract
May 3, 2006, 06:54 AM
At that time I knew that the differences between them were:

d50 - no second command dial
d50 - no WB fine tuning
d50 - slightly updated sensor with slightly lower noise at ISO 1600 (better according to static tests, but we all know static tests do not reflect real world usage.)
d50 - no built-in wireless flash control
d50 - AF-A (camera chooses AF-C or AF-S)
d50 - Auto ISO (I use the PASM modes with the auto off 95% of the time, but when using the camera quick settings I might as well let Nikon control the ISO as well)

The benefits of the D50 over the D70s is well documented, and while the D50 is a great camera, it would be an incredible camera if it had these:

1. A grid in the viewfinder to help line things up.
2. No backlight for the settings LCD on top.


These 2 things that are missing in the D50 but present in the D70s may have actually gotten me to buy the D70s despite all the benefits of the D50. Why? Have you tried shooting in the dark using a D50? It's hard to use the D50 when you can't even see the frackin' settings on your LCD. Not all changes can be seen through the viewfinder. In the dark, I use my mobile phone's screen to light my camera, so I can make sure I have the camera set correctly. :rolleyes: This hasn't been a massive issue, but it has come up numerous times. Using my mobile isn't a problem though, so I just roll with the punches and deal. Besides, I do love my D50 in every other respect, and wouldn't have been as happy holding a D70 knowing that the D50 is still sitting on the store shelf.

If the D50 inherited these 2 features, I'd probably sell my D50 and get a D50s when they come out (maybe next year?). That's how much I want a grid and a backlight for the LCD up top. :o

Chip NoVaMac
May 3, 2006, 07:54 AM
D70 all the way

high frame rate, wider shutter speed range, higher flash sync,

Extreme compact flash cards are cheaper and easier to find then SD Extreme cards.

also the D70 being compact flash will allow for the use of a microdrive --- high capacity for when you are going to be shooting a lot of RAW, and believe me, once you go RAW, you won't willingly go back

A good recap of differences; though 2.5 vs 3fps is not much for some. 1/4000 vs 1/8000 top shutter speed is not much use for most. Ditto for the higher sync speed.

The main reason IMO to go with the D70s is the $150 difference in price for the body, one gets a more capable body. You forgot the wireless flash commander for SB600 and SB800 flashes. And if one is considering a kit, the 18-70 is a better lens of course.

That is the good news.

The bad news is that Nikon is telling us to expect sever shortages of the D70s. :eek: Hope they are wrong!

jared_kipe
May 3, 2006, 10:24 AM
d50 - slightly updated sensor with slightly lower noise at ISO 1600 (better according to static tests, but we all know static tests do not reflect real world usage.)

This is such FUD, how exactly do "static tests" not reflect the "real world"?
Were the "static tests" done in a universe where the laws of physics are not like the laws of physics in your "real world"??
Does the ISO noise of a camera change based on your will??

You're basically saying Science and scientific method are flawed because thats not what happens when you get your hands on things.

ChrisA
May 3, 2006, 12:20 PM
This is such FUD, how exactly do "static tests" not reflect the "real world"?

Don't be to hard on him. I think what he ment is that many quantitative tests do not model human perception. Or in other words "numeric differences in measured results somethimes are not noticed by humans."

This is actually why JPG and MP3 "work" the results of compression make a huge measured difference but the compresion algorithm is designed to toss out information that humans notice the least.

So it can be the same with noise in a camera file. Large measured diferences may not be noticable to human eyes. If so (notice the "if") then it is true that the scientific test was irrelevent in the real world. Not wrong just not usfull.

The best (most usful) test would be a double blind test where judges look at images and grade them. I've not seen anyhting like this ever done.

So how can it not reflect the real world -- by measuring stuff that does not mater and ignorring stuff that does.

kd5boc
May 3, 2006, 01:28 PM
So how can it not reflect the real world -- by measuring stuff that does not mater and ignorring stuff that does.

That's what I was trying to say. The actual picture is my determining factor in purchasing...not static tests with controlled lighting, and perfect colors. It's nice, yeah, and lets me know how accurate it is, but is no measurement of how...well...how well the auto WB takes sunsets, or incandescant lighting. I want to see pics, not charts.

But either way...ISO 1600 is VERY good on the d50.

Tom

Chip NoVaMac
May 3, 2006, 06:50 PM
That's what I was trying to say. The actual picture is my determining factor in purchasing...not static tests with controlled lighting, and perfect colors. It's nice, yeah, and lets me know how accurate it is, but is no measurement of how...well...how well the auto WB takes sunsets, or incandescant lighting. I want to see pics, not charts.

But either way...ISO 1600 is VERY good on the d50.

Tom

Amen to that, I have the "horribly noisy" Panasonic LX-1. Guess what I have 13x19's that look better than what I could expect from high ISO 35mm film; and gives a pretty good run against APS-C DLSR's.