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paulct
Dec 1, 2005, 03:14 PM
just spent 2k on a new imac and i took it out of the box and there is a dead pixel. I have apple care, my software hasnt even gotten here, and the person on the phone said there is nothing i can do about it. I spoke to a manager and he said apple care doesnt cover anything like that and all he could do is have me pay 180 for a restocking fee, pay for shipping, and return it. no exchange or anything.

anyone have any advice?

i could not do anything and have a dead pixel on my screen forever, or i can let apple take 200 dollars from me and get nothing in return.

this sucks- i thought apple customer service would be better...

macmanmatty
Dec 1, 2005, 03:19 PM
complain to them and say that you do high end photography work and that you need a machine with no dead pixles. If you complain enough they will give you one.

iGary
Dec 1, 2005, 03:21 PM
just spent 2k on a new imac and i took it out of the box and there is a dead pixel. I have apple care, my software hasnt even gotten here, and the person on the phone said there is nothing i can do about it. I spoke to a manager and he said apple care doesnt cover anything like that and all he could do is have me pay 180 for a restocking fee, pay for shipping, and return it. no exchange or anything.

anyone have any advice?

i could not do anything and have a dead pixel on my screen forever, or i can let apple take 200 dollars from me and get nothing in return.

this sucks- i thought apple customer service would be better...

No, tell them you want a return tag and a replacement machine.

Out of the box, that is BS. Call and stay on the line until you get what you need.

MacAficionado
Dec 1, 2005, 03:21 PM
My daughter's Gameboy Advance has a dead pixel,, it's an LCD it happens, and it is not Apple's fault.

I believe it might go away in time. It's just one of those things.

SilentPanda
Dec 1, 2005, 03:22 PM
Almost every company has a number of acceptable dead pixels. 1 is lower than Apples acceptable level.

paulct
Dec 1, 2005, 03:23 PM
No, tell them you want a return tag and a replacement machine.

Out of the box, that is BS. Call and stay on the line until you get what you need.


plus no restocking fee?
im going to try again

iGary
Dec 1, 2005, 03:25 PM
plus no restocking fee?
im going to try again

I mean if you seriously just received the thing today, and just opened it, yeah.

Just tell them you want another machine - and don't mention the high-end photography stuff or any other crap. Just tell them that it isn't acceptable.

The industry standard line is "6-8 dead pixels is normal." When they tell you that, ask them why all iMacs don't have dead pixels, and then in that case you'd like a defective one without dead pixels.

Seriously, be firm, but respectful, until they say yes.

decksnap
Dec 1, 2005, 03:25 PM
Technically, it's not 'BS'. It sucks, but most LCDs are considered within spec if they have less than 5 dead pixels or something like that. Can't remember where I read that, but I did.

wattage
Dec 1, 2005, 03:26 PM
I would be pissed off too. Anyone know if you can hook up a cinema display in the store (CompUSA) before you purchase it???

Danksi
Dec 1, 2005, 03:31 PM
Is it dead or sticky. There's a bunch of threads on here suggesting ways of waking up a sticky pixel. All I can suggest is give those a try.

andiwm2003
Dec 1, 2005, 03:33 PM
how did you find the dead pixel? is it so easy to see or did you use on of those little apps to find the dead pixel?

my 24" dell screen has two dead pixels (only the red color is affected and i never notice them without setting the screen to red and looking for them.

to put it in a nutshell: if it's not absolutely obvious in plain sight i wouldn't care. enjoy your mac!

paulct
Dec 1, 2005, 03:34 PM
Is it dead or sticky. There's a bunch of threads on here suggesting ways of waking up a sticky pixel. All I can suggest is give those a try.


i tried rubbing around it with a soft cloth - no dice

iGary
Dec 1, 2005, 03:35 PM
Technically, it's not 'BS'. It sucks, but most LCDs are considered within spec if they have less than 5 dead pixels or something like that. Can't remember where I read that, but I did.

If that is normal, then why don't they all have them?

The majority do not.

Laser47
Dec 1, 2005, 03:40 PM
Try running this video for a couple hours, I tried it on one of my lcds that had a pixel stuck to blue and it got it unstuck.
http://www.widowpc.com/members/fix_dead_pixels.zip

paulct
Dec 1, 2005, 03:51 PM
Try running this video for a couple hours, I tried it on one of my lcds that had a pixel stuck to blue and it got it unstuck.
http://www.widowpc.com/members/fix_dead_pixels.zip


thanks for your help/....i tried it and didnt work.

the pixel only shows up on a black screen and it shows up only a blue color

maxterpiece
Dec 1, 2005, 04:06 PM
I would be pissed off too. Anyone know if you can hook up a cinema display in the store (CompUSA) before you purchase it???

no, and you cannot return any apple product with an LCD if it has been opened without paying the 10% restocking fee. From what i understand you usually get stuck pixels, not dead pixels - meaning that they are stuck a certain color. These are only really blatantly visible when they are surrounded by a color oppposite there own.

It also really depends on where no your screen the pixel is. If it's in the center it will be more noticeable and annoying (i speak from experience).

Anyway, it is and has always been the policy of all LCD display-makers to allow returns only if a certain # of pixels are dead. I think 3 pixels is the current rule at apple. It's not really a customer support issue that your having - it's more of an issue with the technology. THe subject of your thread should be, "LCD technology is not for me".

maxterpiece
Dec 1, 2005, 04:10 PM
thanks for your help/....i tried it and didnt work.

the pixel only shows up on a black screen and it shows up only a blue color

You can try massaging around the pixel, but be careful. The screen can crack much more easily than you might expect and then you're in for paying a lot more than $200 for a repair. I've never had success with this strategy and it seems like it could be a myth, but it doesn't hurt to try.

If you want to try to get apple to replace it then I think what you need to do is come up with a good story. You need a reason why in your situation, this particular stuck pixel in this particular place on the screen is extremely detrimental to the work you do. Much more so than for the average situation. Tell apple that they've really put you in a pickle. Tell them taht you love the system, you love apple tech, and that you understand the policy, but you feel like your situation is a special one.

decksnap
Dec 1, 2005, 04:31 PM
If that is normal, then why don't they all have them?

The majority do not.

This number is there to help define the product. If a single dead pixel were enough to declare an LCD as defective, then they would not sell LCDs, because they wouldn't be able to make any money.They would be throwing away millions of screens. With a screen containing millions of pixels, a screen with less than 5 dead pixels is considered a good screen. That's just the facts surrounding LCD production at this point in time.

Fezwick
Dec 1, 2005, 04:40 PM
You can try massaging around the pixel, but be careful. The screen can crack much more easily than you might expect and then you're in for paying a lot more than $200 for a repair. I've never had success with this strategy and it seems like it could be a myth, but it doesn't hurt to try.

Just did the massaging technique on my 17 inch PB. Fixed a pixel that was stuck (or dead?) on black.

It works. It's no myth. :)

dmetzcher
Dec 1, 2005, 04:58 PM
My daughter's Gameboy Advance has a dead pixel,, it's an LCD it happens, and it is not Apple's fault.

I believe it might go away in time. It's just one of those things.
That's like saying that hard drives fail and it's not the manufacturer's fault. It doesn't matter whether or not they fail. It's not the customer's fault, especially right out of the box. I had a dead pixel on an iBook after almost a week. I brought it back to the store where I bought it and the manager replaced it for me right then and there, without any argument. They were more than helpful. They cited their policy, and must have been able to tell from the tone of my voice that it wasn't going to work, so they made it like they were doing me a favor by replacing it. Let them believe they were doing whatever...I got a new iBook.

If something that you sell fails, it is your responsibility. If you are going to hide behind these made up "policies" about the "acceptable number of dead pixels", the customer should have to sign a waiver when they buy anything with an LCD. If it's within a certain period of time, the screen should work. The whole screen. Every pixel.

In terms of dead pixles, I see a good deal of posts about this topic on message boards dealing with Apple products. I have used Dell and Compaq laptops for many years, and been through several either personally or through work, and none of them have every had a dead pixel. Yes, it happens, but how often? That's the real question to examine. If it happens all the time, Apple is not using good LCDs. (Please spare me the comparison between my iBook and the Dell and Compaq laptops that I mentioned. Yes, I know it's better in every other way.) Does this happen more with Apple's hardware as opposed to Dell's or Compaq's, or the other vendors? Does anyone have any data on this? I'm curious now.

I'm not bashing Apple at all here, because they helped me out and gave me a new iBook when a dead pixel made its first appearence. I can even understand the policy, but it should not apply to new (a few months, at least) hardware.

Stay on the phone with them. Call Apple's corporate office, if necessary. Leave messages in a few VPs' voice mailboxes. Stay on them, demand what is yours - a WORKING machine, in every sense of the word.

Good luck. You deserve to get a working machine.

aquajet
Dec 1, 2005, 05:26 PM
If something that you sell fails, it is your responsibility. If you are going to hide behind these made up "policies" about the "acceptable number of dead pixels", the customer should have to sign a waiver when they buy anything with an LCD. If it's within a certain period of time, the screen should work. The whole screen. Every pixel.

No, those policies are there for a reason. Here's an excellent article on the subject:

http://news.com.com/Consumers+see+red+over+dead+pixels/2100-1041_3-5579493.html

And this pretty much sums it up:

It's possible to make devices whose every panel is perfect, as shown by standards for industries such as medical-imaging devices, where one bad pixel can mean "they're going to cut you open thinking that's where the tumor is," Jacobs said.

But applying such stringent quality standards dramatically raises the price of the finished device, as more than half the display glass the manufacturer buys has to be rejected because of flaws. Instead, device makers accept a certain number of defects and let the buyer beware.

I'll gladly pay less and risk a dead pixel or two.

aussie_geek
Dec 1, 2005, 06:03 PM
Unfortunately you have to live with it mate or fork out the fee for restocking of the computer. To make you feel better, my 20 inch cinema had 2 dead ones out of the box. My PSP also had one out of the box.


Unfortunately, LCD monitors = dead pixels, its only a matter of time.

Period.


aussie_geek

pammyspyce
Dec 1, 2005, 06:16 PM
My daughter's Gameboy Advance has a dead pixel,, it's an LCD it happens, and it is not Apple's fault.

My Gameboy DS had a dead (stuck?) pixel when I first opened it, too. I called NOA and the sent me a new one, no questions asked. When I recieved the new one I boxed up my dead pixel one and sent it back. I wasn't even without a Gameboy. Why can't Apple be like that? Nintendo didn't even flinch. The tech said even one dead pixel is unacceptable.

aquajet
Dec 1, 2005, 06:27 PM
My Gameboy DS had a dead (stuck?) pixel when I first opened it, too. I called NOA and the sent me a new one, no questions asked. When I recieved the new one I boxed up my dead pixel one and sent it back. I wasn't even without a Gameboy. Why can't Apple be like that? Nintendo didn't even flinch. The tech said even one dead pixel is unacceptable.

Probably because the LCDs Apple uses are more expensive and are larger, increasing the probability of imperfections. Replacing every screen that has a defect, even just one, would cost us all more in the end.

RHMMMM
Dec 1, 2005, 06:29 PM
Don't give in, push until you get it fixed. I have had the problem numerous times with multiple vendors and I never give up until I get a replacement - just keep trying. If it's worth it to you, you'll get it replaced, somehow ;)

aussie_geek
Dec 1, 2005, 07:02 PM
Another thought came to mind... If you are that desperate, you, as a consumer have a cooling off period after the purchase of a product. You should be able to return it by claiming it did not meet your expectations and get a full refund. Here in Australia it is 14 days (I think) set by the office of fair trading. It may be different where you are. Look into it....

When you get your money, go to another Applestore or order online and get another one... ;)

aussie_geek

risc
Dec 1, 2005, 07:06 PM
I really don't understand this demand what is yours attitude, you got what you paid for a working iMac G5. Apple like every other company out there have dead pixel policies, Apples is 6 to 8 and then they'll replace it I'm sorry but it's life in the corporate world deal with it and move on. :rolleyes:

Jodeo
Dec 1, 2005, 07:54 PM
"Hi, I just got this BRAND NEW iMAC the yesterday: Is this where I bring it if it's defective and needs to be replaced?"

Say it nice and polite but LOOOUUUUUDDD EEEENOOOOUUUUGGGHHH.

Do NOT be shy. If 1-800-MY-FAT-REAR-END won't help you, I'd resort to this. The keys are Talk Nice, Talk Loud, and Talk About Your DEFECTIVE, NEW iMAC in a busy store...

I'd do it...

risc
Dec 1, 2005, 08:21 PM
...

:rolleyes:

I work for an IT company and if you tried this on me, I'd bill you for wasting my time.

tekmoe
Dec 1, 2005, 10:41 PM
When I ordered my 17" PB a few weeks ago on Oct 19th, I received it a week later. As I booted it up, I noticed a dead pixel. FACK! I tried to live with it but couldn't. I then tried to find something else wrong with the PB. After playing with it for a couple of days, I realized the screen was not aligned properly. I've had this problem before with a 12" PB and I got it replaced without any questions asked. So I called Apple and explained to them the screen was misaligned. They asked me to take it to an Apple store and have a genius look at it. I complied. After doing so, the genuis created a case and verified the screen was not aligned properly. I called Apple back and they looked up the case. After reading the notes, they decided I would have to pay a restocking fee. I fought with them for an hour until they said they would make an exception. lol, whatever, just give me what I paid for. They did. The only thing I had to pay for was to ship the old PB back. No biggie. My work covered that for me. ;)

My new PB is purrrrfect. No dead pixels and good screen alignment. Love it!@$%

tekmoe
Dec 1, 2005, 10:43 PM
BTW, do not listen to any of these people in this thread stating you need to move on and forget about it. I say BS.

If you aren't happy with the product, you be sure to let Apple know. In fact, MAKE them know you are not happy. Something will be done about it. It's all about customer satisfaction. Be polite yet firm. It works 99% of the time. Trust me.

xinxin
Dec 2, 2005, 06:00 AM
apple sucks!

Spend two hours on google searching "LCD problems apple". You will see some people got their third LCD replacement in 6 months, still sucks.

If the 200 dollars are the only thing you have to pay to return? Do it! I have a chance to be able to sacrifice 400 for a return, I will do it now!

iGary
Dec 2, 2005, 06:36 AM
apple sucks!

Spend two hours on google searching "LCD problems apple". You will see some people got their third LCD replacement in 6 months, still sucks.

If the 200 dollars are the only thing you have to pay to return? Do it! I have a chance to be able to sacrifice 400 for a return, I will do it now!

It took me three tries to get a working 30-inch display.

You know, one that didn't billow smoke...

I just don't get why people think it's OK to have dead pixels. You wouldn't put up with it if you bough a TV that had dead spots, why a computer?

And I just read my entire ACD warranty and there is no written guidelines on dead pixels, so I'd call them, tell them this "6-8 pixel rule" is not outlined in the warranty (I'd bet it is not in the iMac warranty, either) and get another one.

But hey, that's just what I'd do. Your mileage may vary.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 2, 2005, 06:45 AM
Defective products are defective products, i'd be pissed as heck to stare at a dead pixel all day. The Apple Fan Club are telling you to except this? Sorry, Customer is king.:) .....................2 NEC LCD Monitors, total dead pixels after 1 year...... 0.

xinxin
Dec 2, 2005, 06:53 AM
It took me three tries to get a working 30-inch display.

You know, one that didn't billow smoke...

I just don't get why people think it's OK to have dead pixels. You wouldn't put up with it if you bough a TV that had dead spots, why a computer?

And I just read my entire ACD warranty and there is no written guidelines on dead pixels, so I'd call them, tell them this "6-8 pixel rule" is not outlined in the warranty (I'd bet it is not in the iMac warranty, either) and get another one.

But hey, that's just what I'd do. Your mileage may vary.

This is what I was dealing with dead pixels. The dealer I buy from got a policy that we can return the product within 7 days. So the first 7 days, I use all LCD test programs I can find, testing testing testing....untill my eyes nearly dropped out. I am sure that i don't have dead pixel now. But I did get replaced with other issue within 7 days. The keyboard I got first was not flat. I replace it. I am pretty sure my first one now is at some one else's hand and maybe he is on this forum too and saying "I love my apple, it's not problem..."

Now I got "uneven illumination" on it, after 4 months been used. I think I would not call warranty as you never know what kind of sucks on replaced LCD.

Sic
Dec 2, 2005, 07:23 AM
It took me three tries to get a working 30-inch display.

You know, one that didn't billow smoke...

I just don't get why people think it's OK to have dead pixels. You wouldn't put up with it if you bough a TV that had dead spots, why a computer?

And I just read my entire ACD warranty and there is no written guidelines on dead pixels, so I'd call them, tell them this "6-8 pixel rule" is not outlined in the warranty (I'd bet it is not in the iMac warranty, either) and get another one.

But hey, that's just what I'd do. Your mileage may vary.

fair play to you. i'm the same. i had a dead pixel on my PSP, took it back, got a replacement. why the hell do people accept shelling out 200 for a product, for it to be imperfect OUT OF THE BOX. i could give a crap about the industry standard, if it's not perfect i'll send/take it back until i get a new one. i work too many hours a day to waste that cash on crap.

seriously, if the OP were me, i'd lose sleep about it.

iGary
Dec 2, 2005, 07:27 AM
Yup - the funny thing is when I picked up my first display, I told the store manager I would like to plug it in and look at it before I leave the store.

He cooperated, but was very huffy about it.

"OK, but here's how this will work - You pay for it first, I plug it in, and we will swap it one time if you find anything not to your liking."

So yeah, you PAY FOR IT and you get a 50/50 chance at getting a functioning $3,000 display.

Wow, thanks!!!!

So withint a week I bring him back two smoldering displays until I got one that wasn't effed.

Sic
Dec 2, 2005, 08:13 AM
well, if that would've been me, it would've gone like this...

"oh, i get to pay for it first? my nearest apple store is only 40 miles away, and i'm just about to drop nearly 2k on you guys, so i think i'll take it to them...or get a Dell :p)

iGary
Dec 2, 2005, 08:16 AM
well, if that would've been me, it would've gone like this...

"oh, i get to pay for it first? my nearest apple store is only 40 miles away, and i'm just about to drop nearly 2k on you guys, so i think i'll take it to them...or get a Dell :p)

They lost on the whole deal in the end. I smoked two monitors before I got a good one .This one works a charm and is just about spot on as anything I've calibrated and used for soft proofing.

End of the day, (and yes, I'll shut up now). I don't know why peoplethink it's acceptable to have a portion of their monitor not functioning...

To the original poster - bitch till you get what you want.

aristobrat
Dec 2, 2005, 08:46 AM
FWIW, if you Google "ISO 13406-2", you can see where the International Standards Organization has defined a standard measurement of pixel defects.

Dell and other others (assumably including Apple) have agreements with their flat-panel monitor suppliers that require all flat-panel monitors to meet or exceed ISO 13406-2 Class 2 requirements.

(Interestingly enough, if you look at the tech specs for Apple's Cinema displays, they list "ISO 13406" under Agency Approval, .. whatever that means).

So it sounds like if a new Apple (Dell, whatever...) product has a flat-panel that exceeds the ISO requirements, then Apple will return it and somehow get reimbursed from the flat-panel manufacturer.

If the flat-panel DOESN'T meet the ISO requirements, then Apple pays for the return.

Since no company on our planet today has been able to cost-effectively produce flat-panels with a guaranteed zero pixel defect rate, it'd be financial suicide for Apple (Dell, whatever...) to have a zero pixel defect return policy.

So as much as I understand that nobody *wants* a monitor with a pixel defect, I also understand why Apple (Dell, whatever...) makes it somewhat difficult to return a flat-panel that doesn't meet the ISO requirements.

aristobrat
Dec 2, 2005, 08:53 AM
I don't know why people think it's acceptable to have a portion of their monitor not functioning...
FWIW (and just playing devil's advocate), the flip-side to your comment is that if every flat-panel manufacturer accepted returns for any screen that wasn't 100% perfect, neither you or I could afford a flat-panel monitor. :eek:

dmetzcher
Dec 2, 2005, 10:04 AM
And I just read my entire ACD warranty and there is no written guidelines on dead pixels, so I'd call them, tell them this "6-8 pixel rule" is not outlined in the warranty (I'd bet it is not in the iMac warranty, either) and get another one.
That's my point exactly. The user should have to agree that something might not work when they buy a device, else, EVERYTHING should work - PERFECTLY. Period. No exceptions, and I don't want to hear Apple telling me that display prices would have to go up if they did a full quality check on all the displays. Not my problem. I'm spending the money, and I want a working - fully working - product.

Hey, here's a question: Has anyone ever walked into an Apple store and seen a display with a dead pixel? Would it be there very long? Of course not, because, even though it prepares the buyer to the real truth about the pixel policy, it doesn't sell displays. And, if you have seen one in the store, did you bring it to the attention of the manager? Next time you see one, tell the manager, and go back a few days later. See if it's still there or not. My money's on NOT.

savar
Dec 2, 2005, 10:07 AM
That's like saying that hard drives fail and it's not the manufacturer's fault. It doesn't matter whether or not they fail. It's not the customer's fault, especially right out of the box. I had a dead pixel on an iBook after almost a week. I brought it back to the store where I bought it and the manager replaced it for me right thhttp://forums.macrumors.com/images/editor/smilie.gifen and there, without any argument.

No, its not like that at all. Its rather like saying that a couple sectors of the hard drive failed, and thats not the manufacturers fault. Just format those sectors out and enjoy the imperceptibly flawed equipment. Honestly, this is part of buying LCD. I'm glad you got what you wanted in your case, but I also hope they sold that iBook to somebody else who didnt complain about a single pixel being off out of millions. Do you have any idea what a waste it would be if every panel that had one stuck pixel was thrown out? My god what an abominable thought. These displays have 99.9999% functioning pixels (or higher) and you're wanting to put them in landfill.

aristobrat
Dec 2, 2005, 10:23 AM
No exceptions, and I don't want to hear Apple telling me that display prices would have to go up if they did a full quality check on all the displays. Not my problem. I'm spending the money, and I want a working - fully working - product.
If you don't think that demanding Apple to reject any monitor from their supplier if it has even ONE pixel defect isn't going to become your problem (by causing a price increase because I can GUARANTEE you that the supplier isn't going to give Apple the same price as they're getitng now), then how do you figure?

The issue isn't that Apple is trying to to be cheap and pass bad LCDs to the market -- the issue is that NO MANUFACTURER can cost-effectively manufacture LCDs that are guaranteed to have zero problem pixels.

gravyboat
Dec 2, 2005, 10:57 AM
Corporate America banks on the reality that an extremely high percentage of customers will not fight back when told "Sorry, but that's our policy." They also realize that at a certain point using resources to put off an unsatisfied and determined customer doesn't make any sense.

If Apple wanted to be fair, they could put in bold letters on their boxes: "LCD screen may contain dead pixels. Unless there are x number, the screen is not considered defective." But they are not fair. They are looking to sell as many units as possible and know that such a disclosure might impact sales. Because of this, I think you have the right to demand satisfaction.

-K

aristobrat
Dec 2, 2005, 11:55 AM
Corporate America banks on the reality that an extremely high percentage of customers will not fight back when told "Sorry, but that's our policy." They also realize that at a certain point using resources to put off an unsatisfied and determined customer doesn't make any sense.
Exactly. I can't think of any other way for a business to do it. :confused:

mattster16
Dec 2, 2005, 01:13 PM
When I got my 15" PB there was one dead pixel. I freaked out about it for awhile. Now I don't even notice the thing is there unless I look for it. It's just one of those things that you forget about with time.

So what my monitor is only 99.9999% perfect instead of 100%? I accept my fate and realize without people like me this computer would have cost 10 grand.

I guess I can only sympathize with people who use their lcds for high end work where a dead/stuck pixel could be a major problem or annoyance.

If having a dead pixel is SO detrimental and bothersome I will gladly take your 'defective' lcds off your hands. :rolleyes:

kahos
Dec 2, 2005, 01:43 PM
While Im not surprised apple is that picky for LCD screens, at the retail store where i work (best buy for all that matters), we accept returns/trade in for the first 14 days, even for one burnt pixel (applies to all brands,even apple)

Hopefully if you complain enough, youll get what you want.

jung_offender
Dec 2, 2005, 02:01 PM
They cited their policy, and must have been able to tell from the tone of my voice that it wasn't going to work, so they made it like they were doing me a favor by replacing it.

Arrogance. You were fortunate and they were generous. Apple's reputation for customer service on dead pixels is well known. If you didn't know it when you bought, there's no one to blame.

tekmoe
Dec 2, 2005, 02:17 PM
So what my monitor is only 99.9999% perfect instead of 100%? I accept my fate and realize without people like me this computer would have cost 10 grand.

I am GLAD there are people like you. That way, if I get a defective LCD with a bad pixel, I can return it for another one. Thank you. ;)

Josh
Dec 2, 2005, 02:30 PM
I have yet to have successful dealings with Apple support.

My iMac sounded like a 747 blowing full blast 24/7...the support people told me it was normal and there was no problem.

After this made me irate, they put me through to an engineer, who I talked to for a very long time on several occasions. He asked me over the phone:

"Do you have the air conditioner running?"

"No sir, that's my iMac."

He gave me his direct number, email address, etc. I performed a number of tests he asked me to do, and we concluded - and he agreed 110% - that my iMac was indeed VERY defective.

But would the support people verify a replacement? Nope. Instead, they sent me a power supply and a 30 page instruction manual.

Two hours and numerous tedious steps (and a new power supply later), I still had an absurdly loud iMac.

Called again...they decided.."oh, it must be the entire midpane this time"...so this time they send me an entire mid pane and an even larger instruction packet.

A lot of time and a ridiculous install later, though I essentially had a different machine, it was still obnoxiously loud. Called again, and they wanted to ship enough midpane to me.

At this point, I'd had enough. I took it to the Apple store, plunked it down on the genious bar, and told them everything I'd been through. Well, they didn't agree with me either, and agreed to replace the midpane for me.

Note that due to the length of shipping times, I was unable to use my bran new iMac for weeks at a time. By now, 6 months had passed in total.

2 whole weeks after I dropped it off, I go to pick it up, we turn it on, and WOW - no more wind tunnel!!

But guess what? There was now a RIDICULOUS ringing buzz sound. They said they heard it but it was under "spec" and they could not replace this machine or offer another one.

I took it home, and lucky for me, the LCD went haywire. Turned around, took it right back, and got a new LCD replacement. Another 2 weeks of no computer passed.

As you can see...this experience nearly had me to NEVER buy another apple product again. And keep in mind, each time I said I "called them back," I was on the phone well over an hour each time, being denied and turned down by several people, until eventually I'd get someone who'd give in.

Totally unnacceptable by any standards.

decksnap
Dec 2, 2005, 03:32 PM
From Apple.com:

About LCD display pixel anomalies

This document defines the term "pixel anomaly", explains why such anomalies occur, and describes what to do if you feel your active matrix LCD panel has more than an acceptable number of pixel anomalies.

Many Apple products use active-matrix LCD panels, including the iMac (Flat Panel), iBook, recent PowerBook computers, Apple Cinema displays, and iPod models with a color display. In addition to being slim and light, active-matrix LCD technology provides customers with many visual performance advantages when compared to traditional cathode-ray tube- (CRT) based displays, such as increased brightness, sharpness, and contrast ratio.

Active-matrix LCD technology uses rows and columns of addressable locations (pixels) that render text and images on screen. Each pixel location has three separate subpixels (red, green and blue) that allow the image to be rendered in full color. Each subpixel has a corresponding transistor responsible for turning the subpixel on or off.

There are typically millions of these subpixels on an LCD display. For example, the LCD panel used in the Apple Cinema HD display is made up of 2.3 million pixels and 6.9 million red, green, and blue subpixels. Occasionally, a transistor does not work perfectly, which may result in the affected subpixel being turned on (bright) or turned off (dark). With the millions of subpixels on a display, it is quite possible to have a low number of faulty transistors on an LCD. Therefore, a certain number of subpixel anomalies is considered acceptable. Rejecting all but perfect LCD panels would significantly increase the retail price for products using LCD displays. These factors apply to all manufacturers using LCD technology--not just Apple products.

If you suspect your display contains a high number of pixel anomalies, take your Apple product to an Apple Authorized Service Provider for closer examination. There may be a charge for the evaluation.

decksnap
Dec 2, 2005, 03:37 PM
From Dell.com:

Quality Standards

During the manufacturing process, it is not uncommon for one or more pixels to be fixed in an unchanging state. The visible result is a fixed pixel that appears as an extremely tiny dark or bright discolored spot.

In almost every case, these fixed pixels are hard to notice and do not detract from the display quality or usability. A display with 1 to 5 fixed pixels is within the industry standards, and is therefore considered an acceptable display. LCD screens that do not meet this industry standard are rarely passed on from the point of manufacturing.

If you notice more than six (6) fixed pixels on your display, or if there are several fixed pixels in a small area of the screen, refer to the E-mail Dell section under Additional Information to contact Dell Technical Support.

djlu
Dec 2, 2005, 03:48 PM
That's like saying that hard drives fail and it's not the manufacturer's fault.

No what it is saying is equivalent to if you have one bad sector on your hard drive or DVD or CD. You are not allowed to return your computer if you have a hard drive which has one unusable block.

Doug

iGary
Dec 2, 2005, 03:56 PM
With the millions of subpixels on a display, it is quite possible to have a low number of faulty transistors on an LCD.

So they are basically saying it's OK to sell you a faulty product.

I don't think so.

Josh
Dec 2, 2005, 03:58 PM
So they are basically saying it's OK to sell you a faulty product.

I don't think so.

Agreed. The transistors should be tested for fault BEFORE the LCD is even built.

decksnap
Dec 2, 2005, 04:24 PM
You guys are missing the point. You probably wouldn't own your LCD if there was a zero tolerance policy. It would cost too much for most to buy. Perhaps your issue is with the visibility of these policies... (as I have posted above, they do exist) because surely your issue can't be with the policy itself. It's simple economics.

Laser47
Dec 2, 2005, 04:25 PM
"Have no fear of perfection, you'll never reach it"
-Salvador Dali

jung_offender
Dec 2, 2005, 04:34 PM
Nothing Is Perfect, because we don't live in a perfect world.[/INDENT]

umm, yeah. I guess that's it sorted, then.

Laser47
Dec 2, 2005, 04:38 PM
If you want to buy an LCD that garuentees no dead or stuck pixels then get a medical grade LCD.
http://h30094.www3.hp.com/searchresults.asp?store_id=1&search_id=1&dept_id=6&dsc=Medical+LCD+displays&search=showcase
Hmmm I wonder why they cost so much.....

840quadra
Dec 2, 2005, 04:40 PM
In my opinion (which is limited).

You bought an iMac, the iMac has an internal non replaceable display that is also non user serviceable. It is not acceptable for anything with that type of display to have a fault during the first few days of owning it, no matter how little or much it costs.

Apple can easily resell that system on their refurbished site to someone that may find 1 dead (or stuck) pixel acceptable, while also avoiding an angry customer that paid full price for this item. I can't see how it would be in Apples best interest to aggravate customers for an obvious flaw (This is obvious, horizontal lines are in a more grey area then this.), as it could potentially lead that person to turn away other potential Apple customers.

Again this was just my opinion, nothing more.

ajampam
Dec 2, 2005, 05:20 PM
I think what it should finally boil down to is customer satisfaction....if not for me ( the customer) NO company would exist! Especially for Apple, which, is backed by a devoted set of fans, they should be a bit more nice.....how can they forget that it is the testimony of those who have vehemently backed it bring them the moolah and more customers. Anyone may disagree, but if they expect me to accept a defective product out of the box as it is lower than the acceptable level, then they would have adjust to the 1% less money I could have in my bank account when I write out a check and ask them to live with it, as a few dollars here and there is fine by my standards!!!! Who are these people to set standards on what is acceptable when I pay for it with MY money!!!!!!!!!!!! No WAY!!!!!!!!:mad: :)

aquajet
Dec 2, 2005, 06:01 PM
If you want to buy an LCD that garuentees no dead or stuck pixels then get a medical grade LCD.
http://h30094.www3.hp.com/searchresults.asp?store_id=1&search_id=1&dept_id=6&dsc=Medical+LCD+displays&search=showcase
Hmmm I wonder why they cost so much.....

That's right....for those of you that insist a single dead pixel is unacceptable, you have a choice. Are you willing to spend that much? I'm not.

Some of you just can't accept the reality of the situation.

Stormchild69
Dec 2, 2005, 07:11 PM
Just got my iMac after waiting a long time.

And I have a pixel always on. It does bug me but I will get used to it. I spoke to Apple today to see if it could be changed. Not that I am bothered but I wanted to check before loading on all my tunes and pictures. Nothing worse than setting up a machine and then returning it.

A little disappointed about the pixel which is red and exactly half way horizontally and 2/3 down from top.

I have been 'massaging' the screen and running the video mentioned earlier on the thread but no joy yet.

My friend told me that he had an always on pixel and it 'fixed' itself after a while. Well I think he just got used to it and then ignored it in reality.

Anyway, here's wishing me luck..tim e to get the damn pixel fixed.

Megatron
Dec 2, 2005, 07:58 PM
When I purchased my ibook, I brought it home, opened it up, and booted for the first time....to see a single stuck pixel. Dead pixel? I don't know. Anyway, I took it right back to the apple store (1-2 hours later) and told them about it, and they told me I could exchange it ONCE for a replacement. If the new one had a dead pixel, then that was all they could do. So I could either keep that one, or get a new one and take my chances. So I opted for the new one, and got a perfectly fine display, all pixels normal (as far as I can tell). I was just very polite and didn't make up any stories about high end photography - i'm not sure if you buy it from apple.com if it is harder to do this though. I guess for that reason the retail store is nice.

iGary
Dec 2, 2005, 08:01 PM
That's right....for those of you that insist a single dead pixel is unacceptable, you have a choice. Are you willing to spend that much? I'm not.

Some of you just can't accept the reality of the situation.

Nah, playuh.

I've always gotten what I wanted. You don't have to settle for sub-par. And I didn't have to rub my weiner on the screen or massage it.

decksnap
Dec 2, 2005, 09:53 PM
By the way, as far as I know, most if not all CRT screens above a certain size have horizontal lines running across the screen either in one or two places. This obviously makes it 'unperfect', but that's the way they come. Try sending those back. Personally, I think one dead pixel is better than a line running all the way across my screen, but whatever. On either screen, you don't notice it after a while.

I think the lesson here is do your research- but also, it would be nice if the general public knew more about LCD tolerances. Then they would know that they got what they paid for.

generik
Dec 2, 2005, 09:58 PM
That's right....for those of you that insist a single dead pixel is unacceptable, you have a choice. Are you willing to spend that much? I'm not.

Some of you just can't accept the reality of the situation.

Uh huh... so why are you buying a Mac?

I fail to see why having dead pixels are acceptable for a Mac, and yes, a Mac is expensive.

If I buy a $100 "ABC" LCD panel, yes, I won't get too pissed if there is a dead pixel. But if I buy a $1999 computer from a spastic manufacturer that insists on sticking a monitor together with the rest of the computer, with no user servicable parts, I sure as hell want a PERFECT display.

Chrispy
Dec 2, 2005, 10:35 PM
My daughter's Gameboy Advance has a dead pixel,, it's an LCD it happens, and it is not Apple's fault.

I believe it might go away in time. It's just one of those things.

It is Apple's fault if they refuse to replace it. Dell will let you replace any monitor with even one dead pixel.

xinxin
Dec 2, 2005, 11:10 PM
I just back from next byte, a rather big australian apple retailer.

I had a look (just a glance, not a careful look) on their iMac on display table. Same dimmer area on the left lower area like my powerbook 12".


Apple is just hopeless. They simply don't know how to fix the problem. If they keep leaving that iMac on display table I would have no chance to replace mine. Coz I need a better display to show mine is worse. Now I found mine is better than theirs. Maybe I came to the store with my laptop people over there will say, "Hi You are lucky you get a perfect apple LCD!!!"

I always heard "Microsoft is robbing people's back account." I agree, I just don't agree that apple didn't do the same thing.

aquajet
Dec 3, 2005, 12:15 AM
Nah, playuh.

I've always gotten what I wanted. You don't have to settle for sub-par. And I didn't have to rub my weiner on the screen or massage it.

Of course you have

I usually get what I want and need, but every now and again, perfection is just unobtainable.

generik
Dec 3, 2005, 12:44 AM
There are typically millions of these subpixels on an LCD display. For example, the LCD panel used in the Apple Cinema HD display is made up of 2.3 million pixels and 6.9 million red, green, and blue subpixels.

Sounds impressive right?

Well in my camera there are EIGHT MILLION sensors on the CCD sensor, and factoring in the component colors there are (GASP) 24 MILLION SENSORS! Look at the size of that thing! Just imagine the sheer engineering required. Do I have to put up with stuck pixels?

Well they do occur from time to time, but for the most part they don't really exist.

Making a LCD panel is child's play. All that bit about "increasing production costs" should really be "we want to line our pockets and gorge off you more by selling you defective products"

Under no circumstances should anyone accept a defective product.

gravyboat
Dec 3, 2005, 12:47 AM
What's interesting is the equilibrium reached when most people accept a dead pixel or three while only a few don't. This means that Apple is able to absorb the cost of a small percentage of returns without having to jack up the price of their products with LCDs because they know their "policy" along with "common" technological sense will hold off any large-scale demand for no-dead-pixel screens.

In other words, the people who demand perfect screens at a low price are only getting them because the majority of people are not complaining. Instead of arguing with or trying to change the minds of non-complainers, perhaps we should be thanking them.

-K

generik
Dec 3, 2005, 12:50 AM
Of course you have

I usually get what I want and need, but every now and again, perfection is just unobtainable.

Except you must not confuse stuck pixels with perfection.

Let's take Eizo LCD displays as an example, since I am generally so happy with them.

PERFECT backlighting.. no uneven blotches or "pink" corners like the ACD!
PERFECT color calibration
Obviously no stuck pixels

Sure, it does cost a tad more than an ACD even, but ACDs still easily costs twice as much as equivalent displays.

Now let's look at the iMac in question, and realise this. Unlike normal circumstances when I can buy a separate display, or use an external monitor, or whatever.. for the iMacs, that's it. You are stuck. Sorry out of luck.

Only an idiot will accept it under any circumstances, sorry I just gotta say that. Even if I am an AAPL shareholder and it is in my best interests to *maximize Apple's margins* I will still not have it happen on *my* expense.

leftbanke7
Dec 3, 2005, 01:52 AM
What I find humorous is the underlying tone that anybody who goes to Apple trying to get their problem fixed is being unreasonable.

840quadra
Dec 3, 2005, 01:58 AM
What's interesting is the equilibrium reached when most people accept a dead pixel or three while only a few don't. This means that Apple is able to absorb the cost of a small percentage of returns without having to jack up the price of their products with LCDs because they know their "policy" along with "common" technological sense will hold off any large-scale demand for no-dead-pixel screens.

In other words, the people who demand perfect screens at a low price are only getting them because the majority of people are not complaining. Instead of arguing with or trying to change the minds of non-complainers, perhaps we should be thanking them.

-K

I see your side of the debate, but my spin on it is a touch different.

In my opinion it is Dell, Apple, and the others that tell the consumers that 2 or 3 dead or stuck pixels is acceptable, not the other way around. Since the Majority of consumers don't complain or contest this issue, the vendors and manufacturers can get away with it.

Remember while some recalls stem from safety issues or defects, many recalls (automotive or otherwise) are actually caused by customer complaints by people demanding action. When those recalls don't happen is when Class action lawsuits come into play.

While MOST of those lawsuits are frivolous and should not have gone through, many are actual issues that consumers would have preferred working out directly with the vendor / Manufacturer in the first place.



Only an idiot will accept it under any circumstances, sorry I just gotta say that. Even if I am an AAPL shareholder and it is in my best interests to *maximize Apple's margins* I will still not have it happen on *my* expense.

While I am on your side on this debate, I am ashamed to be with posts like this. There is no need to post slander, or bring so much emotion or venom into this topic. People are less likely to see your point, and will put up defenses, as opposed to listen to what you have to say.

generik
Dec 3, 2005, 05:08 AM
What I find humorous is the underlying tone that anybody who goes to Apple trying to get their problem fixed is being unreasonable.

Partly it is due to the mentality that Apple can do no wrong!

dazzer21-2
Dec 3, 2005, 05:38 AM
I just received a new Mac Mini and 17" TFT screen on a very special deal from a UK supplier. Out of the box it had 2 dead pixels, and after a week 2 more. I rang them and explained this, they had a new monitor to me in 2 days and picked up the old one a day later. Apple should honour this - as far as I am concerned, if I pay 2k on an iMac and it comes faulty (5-pixel buffer zone or not), it's not a 2k machine. Apple or no Apple, it's money back time I think...

stevep
Dec 3, 2005, 09:01 AM
While I am on your side on this debate, I am ashamed to be with posts like this. There is no need to post slander, or bring so much emotion or venom into this topic. People are less likely to see your point, and will put up defenses, as opposed to listen to what you have to say.
Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken.:)
I seem to remember one monitor company (CTX ??) having a guaranteed-no-dead-pixels policy, proving that its possible.
One solution might be to sell monitors in 2 different price bands. I'd be happy to pay a (reasonable) surcharge to have no dead pixels. And all the Apple fans who seem quite happy to put up with a load of junk just because its got a logo on it can have all the dead pixels they want. Seriously, there are some applications where a few dead pixels wouldn't really matter (such as the monitors on our servers at work, or for CCTV or whatever), so there is probably a market for imperfect screens.

paulct
Dec 5, 2005, 02:11 PM
I really don't understand this demand what is yours attitude, you got what you paid for a working iMac G5. Apple like every other company out there have dead pixel policies, Apples is 6 to 8 and then they'll replace it I'm sorry but it's life in the corporate world deal with it and move on. :rolleyes:


i didnt get what i paid for - a screwed up screen is not a working imac

decksnap
Dec 5, 2005, 02:15 PM
i didnt get what i paid for - a screwed up screen is not a working imac

According to Apple and other companies' policies, you have a perfectly acceptable monitor, and a perfectly working Mac.

risc
Dec 5, 2005, 02:23 PM
According to Apple and other companies' policies, you have a perfectly acceptable monitor, and a perfectly working Mac.

What he said. To the OP I'm not saying it is fair, but it is the corporate world you can bitch and moan as long as you want but you did get what you paid for, you just aren't happy with what you paid for. It is up to Apple if they replace the machine or not, but they don't have to since according to their guide lines you got exactly what you paid for a working iMac with a monitor which is within their specifications.

paulct
Dec 5, 2005, 02:37 PM
thanks for all your opinions.. im about to make the call now.. ill let you know what happens

generik
Dec 5, 2005, 03:20 PM
According to Apple and other companies' policies, you have a perfectly acceptable monitor, and a perfectly working Mac.

Screw policy. By your logic McDonalds can just put a display on their front door announcing their company policy saying that "it is acceptable to consume food sold by our franchises and be hospitalised for no more than 5 days incurring medical expenses of $10,000 or part thereof?"

Well, they could try....

If Apple is so adamant on their policies perhaps they should put a similar notice PROMINENTLY outside each store and on a huge full screen banner before entering the webstore, let us see how it affects business.

What Apple is doing is basically put a notice in some obscure corner of their website, and point to it when something goes wrong. A good question the customer should shoot back is, "Is it a contract?", "Have I signed it?".

And yes, if all else fails, Apple did sign a contract with their credit card processor, just file a chargeback under "defective goods" and ship the crap computer back to the bank if that's what it takes.

BakedBeans
Dec 5, 2005, 04:11 PM
thanks for all your opinions.. im about to make the call now.. ill let you know what happens

Any news?

aristobrat
Dec 5, 2005, 05:42 PM
If Apple is so adamant on their policies perhaps they should put a similar notice PROMINENTLY outside each store and on a huge full screen banner before entering the webstore, let us see how it affects business.
With the exception of Apple and their Cinema Displays, I've never seen any mention of pixels from any manufacturer before purchase. How do these companies get away with it?

Just tell customers "too bad" until they mention the legal aspect of it?

Capt Underpants
Dec 5, 2005, 05:50 PM
thanks for your help/....i tried it and didnt work.

the pixel only shows up on a black screen and it shows up only a blue color

I have the same problem with my Dell 2005FPW. I would have used Dell's no questions asked return policy had I noticed within the first few days of ownership. I didn't notice until months after, though. It's not that big of a deal. Most of the time you won't notice it.

xinxin
Dec 6, 2005, 09:00 AM
LCD screen generally worths 40% of the whole laptop value. So I agree that, without perfect screen, it is not perfect working iMac.

When I bought my powerbook, I actually kinda found this is cheaper than PC laptops. I spent 2700 AUD on mine. With the same money, you won't have a 5400 rpm hard disk + seperate 64MB graphic card + 2GHz equivalent CPU.

You can only have a slow hard drive, integrated graphic card and no more than 1.7 GHz PC laptop.

So I think to compete with PC, apple did reduce some labour cost in quality control, display became victim. What do you think?

caveman_uk
Dec 6, 2005, 09:17 AM
Making a LCD panel is child's play.
Go on then. Make one. This should be fun to watch....:rolleyes:

dmetzcher
Dec 6, 2005, 10:07 AM
Screw policy. By your logic McDonalds can just put a display on their front door announcing their company policy saying that "it is acceptable to consume food sold by our franchises and be hospitalised for no more than 5 days incurring medical expenses of $10,000 or part thereof?"

Well, they could try....

If Apple is so adamant on their policies perhaps they should put a similar notice PROMINENTLY outside each store and on a huge full screen banner before entering the webstore, let us see how it affects business.

What Apple is doing is basically put a notice in some obscure corner of their website, and point to it when something goes wrong. A good question the customer should shoot back is, "Is it a contract?", "Have I signed it?".

And yes, if all else fails, Apple did sign a contract with their credit card processor, just file a chargeback under "defective goods" and ship the crap computer back to the bank if that's what it takes.
I completely agree with the statements above.

I'd like to see 50 or so customers take it to court and have a judge rule. I assume that if Apple lost the case, they would change their policy and make you sign something about the display, or at least agree to it on the Web site before making a purchase. If they need to be able to pass off defective equipment to the customer in order to keep prices low, fine. They just have to tell customers, and the customers have to agree. That's it. I wouldn't have any problem with that at all. Period. And to those who would say that the screen is not defective, that's pure garbage. If it doesn't work the way it was intended to work, it is defective.

An example is a new car. You buy it, get it home, and a week later the paint on the hood starts to bubble. It's just a small spot, about half a square inch, but you take it in because you just bought the thing. The dealer will usually fix this, as it is typically a paint problem. There have been massive recalls by car companies in the past for this exact issue. Would you argue that the even though the paint is ruined in one small area, overall, the call is certainly in great condition, and the customer should just eat the annoying little issue? It drives great, the lights work, it doesn't burst into flames, the check engine light isn't on right now, and the rest of the paint job is perfect. Is that good enough for you? I think that people need to stop giving Apple a free pass. I love their products, but I am not willing to get hosed just to help them be successful. They are a public company and that's their problem, not mine. If something is not ready for markget because you can't guarantee perfection for at least a few months (unless, of course, the user breaks it or causes it to break), then you should warn the customer that, in order to keep prices low, they must agree that 5 or less dead pixels does not get them a replacement. :)

The chargeback idea is a great one though. Tell them you're going to call your card company and charge it back, then ask them where to send the computer. Ask for a supervisor if they will not give you an address. You'd be surprised just how quickly a company will help you out when you do that. No one wants a chargeback. It's bad for business, and costs them money in chargeback penalties from their merchant account provider/bank. In addition, it's VERY easy to get a chargeback because usually the card companies are on your side, not the vendor.

dmetzcher
Dec 6, 2005, 10:13 AM
From Apple.com:

About LCD display pixel anomalies

This document defines the term "pixel anomaly", explains why such anomalies occur, and describes what to do if you feel your active matrix LCD panel has more than an acceptable number of pixel anomalies.

Many Apple products use active-matrix LCD panels, including the iMac (Flat Panel), iBook, recent PowerBook computers, Apple Cinema displays, and iPod models with a color display. In addition to being slim and light, active-matrix LCD technology provides customers with many visual performance advantages when compared to traditional cathode-ray tube- (CRT) based displays, such as increased brightness, sharpness, and contrast ratio.

Active-matrix LCD technology uses rows and columns of addressable locations (pixels) that render text and images on screen. Each pixel location has three separate subpixels (red, green and blue) that allow the image to be rendered in full color. Each subpixel has a corresponding transistor responsible for turning the subpixel on or off.

There are typically millions of these subpixels on an LCD display. For example, the LCD panel used in the Apple Cinema HD display is made up of 2.3 million pixels and 6.9 million red, green, and blue subpixels. Occasionally, a transistor does not work perfectly, which may result in the affected subpixel being turned on (bright) or turned off (dark). With the millions of subpixels on a display, it is quite possible to have a low number of faulty transistors on an LCD. Therefore, a certain number of subpixel anomalies is considered acceptable. Rejecting all but perfect LCD panels would significantly increase the retail price for products using LCD displays. These factors apply to all manufacturers using LCD technology--not just Apple products.

If you suspect your display contains a high number of pixel anomalies, take your Apple product to an Apple Authorized Service Provider for closer examination. There may be a charge for the evaluation.
That's from Apple.com...
I bought an iBook in the store. Was this document shown to me at some point? If not, I am not bound by it.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 10:14 AM
Almost every company has a number of acceptable dead pixels. 1 is lower than Apples acceptable level.

It's one higher than mine.

Totally unacceptable. Keep calling them until they agree to exchange it or refund your money. Just because they have a "policy" doesnt mean they can do whatever they want.

Did you sign an agreement before you purchased the computer that said you accepted one dead pixel? No? Then, in fact, Apple owes you a return because their display does not meet their own specifications, which is 1440 x 900 pixels for the 17" and 1680 x 1050 pixels for the 20".

Demand a new computer, and don't put up with even one dead pixel.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 10:15 AM
That's from Apple.com...
I bought an iBook in the store. Was this document shown to me at some point? If not, I am not bound by it.

Exactly! It doesnt matter what they say AFTER you purchased the machine. The fact is, Apple does NOT show you this when you purchased a Mac with an LCD.

Their displays DONT match they published specs, so they MUST give you a replacement. Keep calling until you get one.

dmetzcher
Dec 6, 2005, 10:18 AM
No what it is saying is equivalent to if you have one bad sector on your hard drive or DVD or CD. You are not allowed to return your computer if you have a hard drive which has one unusable block.

Doug
Fair point.
However, I think my original comparison was flawed entirely. A dead sector on a hard drive is not something that matters to someone looking at it. You don't care or notice, and it does not have any effect on your work (unless it has so many bad areas that you can't use a good amount of the drive).A dead pixel could potentially cause issues for those who need a good display, such as a graphic designer, or someone who works in photography. The argument can be made that, if you are buying a display for that purpose, and you have dead pixels, the manufacturer or vendor is not supplying you with the equipment you paid for in the first place.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 10:21 AM
With the exception of Apple and their Cinema Displays, I've never seen any mention of pixels from any manufacturer before purchase. How do these companies get away with it?

Just tell customers "too bad" until they mention the legal aspect of it?

Yes, because most customers wont make a fuss. They'll just accept it and deal with the dead pixel. I will be buying a new iMac G5 after MWSF and I wont put up with ANY dead pixels (knock on wood...)

Look at hard drive space. Apple writes this at the end of the iMac page on apple.com

"# 1GB = 1 billion bytes; actual formatted capacity less."

This is a disclaimer that you, as the customer, are responsible for reading and understanding. Your 250GB drive WONT store 250GB, but Apple tells you this straight up. Where is the statement that says something to the effect that:

"Screen resolutions are approximate. Up to 7 dead or stuck pixels may be present on your display"

Right, there isnt one.

If you get a dead pixel, DEMAND an exchange. Or threaten to contact the credit card company and do a return through them citing "damaged goods".

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 10:22 AM
What he said. To the OP I'm not saying it is fair, but it is the corporate world you can bitch and moan as long as you want but you did get what you paid for, you just aren't happy with what you paid for. It is up to Apple if they replace the machine or not, but they don't have to since according to their guide lines you got exactly what you paid for a working iMac with a monitor which is within their specifications.

NO! He didnt get what he paid for. He paid for a screen resolution of 1440 x 900 on the 17" (or 1680 x 1050 for the 20"). Does he have all of those pixels?

I thought not.

dmetzcher
Dec 6, 2005, 10:23 AM
When I purchased my ibook, I brought it home, opened it up, and booted for the first time....to see a single stuck pixel. Dead pixel? I don't know. Anyway, I took it right back to the apple store (1-2 hours later) and told them about it, and they told me I could exchange it ONCE for a replacement. If the new one had a dead pixel, then that was all they could do. So I could either keep that one, or get a new one and take my chances. So I opted for the new one, and got a perfectly fine display, all pixels normal (as far as I can tell). I was just very polite and didn't make up any stories about high end photography - i'm not sure if you buy it from apple.com if it is harder to do this though. I guess for that reason the retail store is nice.
I love shopping in the retail store. When people know you, and see you now and then (or often), they are more likely to help you out. In addition, we all know that it's much easier to be nasty/unhelpful/rude/whatever over the phone than it is to do that in person. Dealing with people in person, though we move further and further away from that every day, still has real value.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 10:36 AM
Just got my iMac after waiting a long time.

And I have a pixel always on. It does bug me but I will get used to it. I spoke to Apple today to see if it could be changed. Not that I am bothered but I wanted to check before loading on all my tunes and pictures. Nothing worse than setting up a machine and then returning it.

A little disappointed about the pixel which is red and exactly half way horizontally and 2/3 down from top.

I have been 'massaging' the screen and running the video mentioned earlier on the thread but no joy yet.

My friend told me that he had an always on pixel and it 'fixed' itself after a while. Well I think he just got used to it and then ignored it in reality.

Anyway, here's wishing me luck..tim e to get the damn pixel fixed.


Don't get used to it! Take it back. If everyone just "get's used to it", the manufacturers will never be held accountable for their products.

I realize that LCDs may sometimes have dead pixels. But that does not absolve Apple from making sure that the ones they SELL are perfect.

decksnap
Dec 6, 2005, 10:50 AM
Screw policy. By your logic McDonalds can just put a display on their front door announcing their company policy saying that "it is acceptable to consume food sold by our franchises and be hospitalised for no more than 5 days incurring medical expenses of $10,000 or part thereof?"


I used to know someone who worked for a hot dog company. They actually have an acceptable level of 'miscellanea' content for their product. Meaning a given hot dog can only contain up to 2% or whatever non-standard ingredient- dirt, sawdust, etc.

I'll say it again. The issue is not the policy, it is the awareness or lack therof to the policy. If you would like your next LCD to cost $6,000, argue against the policy. If you just feel like you were not made aware of the policy, argue about their policy awareness!

decksnap
Dec 6, 2005, 10:52 AM
I realize that LCDs may sometimes have dead pixels. But that does not absolve Apple from making sure that the ones they SELL are perfect.

This would at least double the cost of Apple monitors.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 10:57 AM
This would at least double the cost of Apple monitors.

That is NOT the point. It's not my problem to accept this product fault.

If Apple TOLD its customers BEFORE THEY MADE THEIR PURCHASE that their LCD's MAY contain a few dead pixels, then that totally changes the story.

But as of right now, buyers are not made aware of this issue until after purchase. I agree with you: products are never perfect. But as the consumer, I need to be made aware of exactly what I am purchasing BEFORE I purchase it. If that doesnt happen, then I havent received the product I purchased in good faith.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 11:00 AM
I used to know someone who worked for a hot dog company. They actually have an acceptable level of 'miscellanea' content for their product. Meaning a given hot dog can only contain up to 2% or whatever non-standard ingredient- dirt, sawdust, etc.

I'll say it again. The issue is not the policy, it is the awareness or lack therof to the policy. If you would like your next LCD to cost $6,000, argue against the policy. If you just feel like you were not made aware of the policy, argue about their policy awareness!

Yes, policy awareness IS the problem.

Have you ever checked your coat at a restaurant or bar? EVERY time I've done this, there has been a HUGE sign saying something to the effect that "We are not responsible for lost or stolen items". I check my coat knowing full well that my coat might not be there when I get back, and that as long as the restaurant has taken every reasonable step to prevent my coat from getting stolen (they cant store it on the street, for instance), then I accepted that risk going in. It's the same thing for parking lots, where they are not responsible for damage to your car. I know that going in. It says it right on the sign AND on the ticket stub.

But Apple ISN'T doing this. They are, in effect, waiting until after your coat is stolen or your car is damaged to inform you that they have this policy. That's where the problem lies!

aristobrat
Dec 6, 2005, 11:42 AM
But Apple ISN'T doing this. They are, in effect, waiting until after your coat is stolen or your car is damaged to inform you that they have this policy. That's where the problem lies!
IMO, that's so *not* where the problem lies.

Even if Apple made the consumer sign a "before purchase" pixel disclaimer informing them of everything, the policy isn't going to guarantee that every iMac, PowerBook, Cinema Display, etc is going to have ZERO pixel defects.

The problem lies in the fact that nobody seems to be able to produce cost-effective LCDs guaranteed to have zero pixel defects.

That's the problem that needs to be fixed.

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 12:03 PM
IMO, that's so *not* where the problem lies.

Even if Apple made the consumer sign a "before purchase" pixel disclaimer informing them of everything, the policy isn't going to guarantee that every iMac, PowerBook, Cinema Display, etc is going to have ZERO pixel defects.

The problem lies in the fact that nobody seems to be able to produce cost-effective LCDs guaranteed to have zero pixel defects.

That's the problem that needs to be fixed.

Absolutely agree!

But we have to accept that LCD manufacturers seem unable to do this in a cost-effective manner. But that doesnt mean the consumer has to accept a shoddy product.

And that is why everyone with a dead pixel should raise bloody hell. This will result in more people getting what they actually paid for, and will make Apple do one of two things:

1) Post a disclaimer saying that 1-7 dead pixels is acceptable and LCDs with 1-7 dead pixels cannot be exchanged, thus putting the purchasing responsibility in the consumers hands

OR

2) Improve QC and produce better products, whilst still keeping customers in the dark regarding their 'policies' toward dead pixels.

Given that increasing QC drives up cost, I'll bet you choice 1 is Apple's move.

Bottom line: dont accept ANYTHING about your computer that is below spec, or that you were not explicitly informed of prior to purchase. This should go for anything you purchase, not just computers.

aristobrat
Dec 6, 2005, 12:21 PM
This will result in more people getting what they actually paid for, and will make Apple do one of two things:

1) Post a disclaimer saying that 1-7 dead pixels is acceptable and LCDs with 1-7 dead pixels cannot be exchanged, thus putting the purchasing responsibility in the consumers hands

OR

2) Improve QC and produce better products, whilst still keeping customers in the dark regarding their 'policies' toward dead pixels.
I'm missing where either one of these two things will benefit the consumer.

With #1, they're plain crap-out-of-luck if they get a dead pixel. With #2, they'd pay a lot more for the product.

IMO, as crappy as the whole "we don't make our dead pixel policy available to you before purchasing, and we'll make it really difficult for you to get a replacement just because you have a few dead pixels, BUT WE WILL REPLACE YOUR PRODUCT IF YOU DEMAND IT" thing is, it works.

So what is the point in bitching about it when the only things that will remedy it will leave the consumer in a WORSE spot?

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 12:31 PM
I'm missing where either one of these two things will benefit the consumer.

With #1, they're plain crap-out-of-luck if they get a dead pixel. With #2, they'd pay a lot more for the product.

IMO, as crappy as the whole "we don't make our dead pixel policy available to you before purchasing, and we'll make it really difficult for you to get a replacement just because you have a few dead pixels, BUT WE WILL REPLACE YOUR PRODUCT IF YOU DEMAND IT" thing is, it works.

So what is the point in bitching about it when the only things that will remedy it will leave the consumer in a WORSE spot?

Who said Apple would be looking out for the consumer's interests? Apple looks out for their share price, and that's all. They do a risk/reward analysis for EVERYTHING. Having this policy of telling people they wont accept returns if there is less than 7 dead pixels WORKS on enough people that they can afford to do so. If it didnt work and it affected their bottom line, they'd change it.

I'm not saying either scenario is great for the consumer. What I'm saying is the CURRENT situation is unacceptable. Apple cannot unilaterally implement a policy that the consumer is not aware of at the time of purchase. If consumers WERE aware of the policy, perhaps they would make more informed choices (i.e. not purchase a new LCD from Apple until Apple's 'policy' was acceptable to them).

aristobrat
Dec 6, 2005, 12:40 PM
I'm not saying either scenario is great for the consumer. What I'm saying is the CURRENT situation is unacceptable. Apple cannot unilaterally implement a policy that the consumer is not aware of at the time of purchase. If consumers WERE aware of the policy, perhaps they would make more informed choices (i.e. not purchase a new LCD from Apple until Apple's 'policy' was acceptable to them).
But what is the point of making the CURRENT situation ACCEPTABLE if it makes things WORSE in the end for the consumer?

With the current situation (that you and others deam unacceptable), Apple seems to be replacing the product for the consumer. They don't make it easy (undoubtably part of their risk/reward analysis) but they do seem to be following thru for those consumers that demand it. End result, consumer wins.

My point is that although the current situation SUCKS, I have yet to see anyone propose something that'd logically work out better for the consumer in the end. (i.e. understanding the logic of saying "well, apple should just not sell any panels with no defects" = higher prices)

Edge100
Dec 6, 2005, 12:48 PM
But what is the point of making the CURRENT situation ACCEPTABLE if it makes things WORSE in the end for the consumer?

With the current situation (that you and others deam unacceptable), Apple seems to be replacing the product for the consumer. They don't make it easy (undoubtably part of their risk/reward analysis) but they do seem to be following thru for those consumers that demand it. End result, consumer wins.

My point is that although the current situation SUCKS, I have yet to see anyone propose something that'd logically work out better for the consumer in the end. (i.e. understanding the logic of saying "well, apple should just not sell any panels with no defects" = higher prices)

Perhaps I'm not stating my point clearly enough.

I agree with you that if Apple posts the policy, that does, in some way, make things worse for the consumer since it puts the choice to accept the policy squarely on the shoulders of the customer, and thus removes the recourse should 1 or 2 (or 7) pixels die.

However, I'm speaking specifically to those people who have said (on this thread and others) that we should just ignore the dead pixels, and live with Apple's policy 'cause that's the way it is. That we are just not happy with the product, and thats the customer's fault. Caveat emptor, and so forth.

That's crap! I'm saying, and have said the entire time, that people should not accept this situation. Demand a replacement. Don't accept a shoddy product.

Caveat emptor, indeed...but not if the buyer is unaware of the terms of his or her purchase, as they are right now.

maverick808
Dec 6, 2005, 01:24 PM
For those trying to remember which company it was... Sony are now starting to have a zero dead pixel policy on some of their monitors and are hoping to expand it to the whole range in the near future.

By law in the UK, most European countries and probably most other places, when you buy anything over the phone or online you can return it for any reason at all all within 14 days with no restocking fee.

Last month I bought two iMacs and both of them had a dead pixel so I called up Apple and told them I wasn't satisfied and I wanted a refund. They give me no hassle at all and arranged to have them collected the next day for full refunds. I didn't have to pay restocking or any delivery costs... I got all my money back.

I done the same with a 15" PowerBook I had bought just the week before because of the horizontal line issue. Got full refund for that no questions asked. I didn't even tell them the problem I just asked for my money back.

I had planned on buying another two iMacs straight away and to just keep returning them if they kept arriving with dead pixels but I heard the Intel in Jan rumours so I've decided to wait until after MWSF and then decide if I still want an iMac or if I want something new they announce then.

The point is as long as you are not in the USA then you won't have any problem returning any Apple product for any reason. I just can't comprehend people that put up with defects. Regardless of whether the product costs 2000 bucks or 10 bucks I simply will not accept any flaws.

generik
Dec 6, 2005, 01:36 PM
This would at least double the cost of Apple monitors.

Congratulations sir, you just ate their bait hook line and sinker.

Why would it double the cost of an Apple monitor?

Let's be nice, keep quiet, and assume the outrageous possibility that 50% of all LCDs have dead pixels on them ok?

Is that true? Obviously no. Manufacturing processes have improved a lot since.

Fact is they can just throw those LCDs with dead pixels away, smash it up right there on the factory floor if you will, but at best it will probably increase costs by 10-20%.

aristobrat
Dec 6, 2005, 02:04 PM
Fact is they can just throw those LCDs with dead pixels away, smash it up right there on the factory floor if you will, but at best it will probably increase costs by 10-20%.
There's no need for Apple to have to go thru the whole smashing part -- they can just request ISO-13406-2 Class I certified flat panels. Those are guaranteed to have zero pixel defects, which is what you're saying Apple should check for before they package up a product to be sold.

Although I haven't found a price for a Class I flat panel, every reference to one I can find says it's significantly more expensive than Class 2 (which is what Apple currently uses).

"Significantly" sounds more than 10-20%.

dmetzcher
Dec 6, 2005, 02:47 PM
Arrogance. You were fortunate and they were generous. Apple's reputation for customer service on dead pixels is well known. If you didn't know it when you bought, there's no one to blame.
That's entirely hillarious. I should have known Apple's reputation for handling dead pixel issues, and if I didn't, it's my fault for not knowing? I see, so everyone who purchases an Apple product, or any product, should spend a good deal of time on a message board reading everything possible about dead pixels? Should I also have tried searching for "problems with FireWire", in case there were any? How about "problems with the little latch that holds the iBook screen down"?

Should a consumer be forced to research an issue that they expect to not have a problem with if they buy something from a manufacturer? Why would that be necessary, if you assume that your screen would have no problems? You would simply think, "Hey, they probably stand behind their product as much as the local grocery store would stand behind theirs, so I will be able to get a replacement if something does not work."

Ask the average consumer...I actually have asked a few people in my office since I last posted...
"If you were to buy a computer from XYZ company, and it had any problems at all, whatsoever, when you opened the box, would you expect a refund or exchange?"

I wonder what type of responses you would get. I think you know what type of responses you would get, frankly.

The consumer does not need to do research on things of this nature. It's foolish to expect them too. You talk of arrogance. Isn't it you who is really arrogant to think that the consumer has time to research every possible policy of a company with which they are planning to do business? Perhaps we should get the attorneys involved, and we can all sit down at a little table and go over every little point. That's arrogance to believe that they have the time to go through every possible policy, or would want to, or would need to, that you have on your Web site. That's right, you are asking the consumer to research the entire Web site for policies, and then go to message boards, which Apple does not cite on their Web site, by the way, as references to their "reputation for dealing with dead pixels". So the consumer, who might be new to the platform, would need to (1) know where to find these boards, and (b) know which ones to trust. In addition, the consumer might not be connected to the Internet (duh) if this is the first computer they are buying.

As a side note, reading message boards about these things will produce a bad image of every company on the planet. There is at least a handful of people who are angry with [insert company name here]. Those are the people who post on message boards. People who are happy never go to them and say how happy they are with the things they have purchased. If you think that the average consumer is on this message board on a daily basis, you're mistaken. The average person has no idea what a "message board" or "Web forum" or "BBS" is, and doesn't go to them, except MAYBE when they need help.

Your argument holds no water. Refrain from accusing someone of arrogance, and then following such an accusation with arrogance of your own. My comment was frank and to the point, and not arrogant at all. The fact is, coporations don't typically tell me no when I feel strongly that I'm in the right. There is always a vice president, or a call center manager, or someone higher up that you can speak to enough times to get them to see it your way, which they probably already do in the first place. If the issue is minor, I wouldn't waste my time. When it's an issue of principle, I feel that companies need people to stand up to them. When I spoke to Apple, I was very nice at first, and, when the "policy" was cited, my tone changed, and so did hers immediately. That's the truth. Call it whatever you want. I offered it as a suggestion for dealing with them, or any company. Period. Stand firm and keep pushing. She agreed with me, I later found out that she felt equally screwed by Apple when her PowerBook gave her a dead pixel as a gift a few months after buying it. She told me this when I got to the store. She gave me the feeling that she felt their policy was garbage, and helped me out, but that was her right as a manager - to make that decision. Yes, she could have told me not and not been nice about it. I would have pushed further, and eventually just done a chargeback and dropped it off at the store. Then I would have bought another one and tried again. She had options, and so did I. So do we all.

We can all agree to disagree on this issue. Half can go one way, half can go the other. You'll be able to tell us all apart by the dead pixels on our screens, or lack thereof.

dmetzcher
Dec 6, 2005, 02:59 PM
With the current situation (that you and others deam unacceptable), Apple seems to be replacing the product for the consumer. They don't make it easy (undoubtably part of their risk/reward analysis) but they do seem to be following thru for those consumers that demand it. End result, consumer wins.
I guess that depends on which consumer we are talking about. What about the consumer who doesn't do well fighting with a company over a faulty product? They seem to be screwed right now. Listen to the people on this board. HALF of them are saying "get over it". I agree that this policy works for some, but not many. It would work if you were willing and had the time it could take to fight it out with Apple. If not, you're screwed. Some of the people on this board have been screwed. They say that the pixel doesn't bother them.

Hey, I have an idea. Offer them a replacement screen at no cost. Do you think they'll take it? Yes, they will, if it doesn't take any of their time. Perhaps some of them are timid and don't want to fight with Apple. That's fair enough and nothing to look down upon. I know that sometimes I don't feel like arguing about things with a company. (For a $1000+ product, I put that feeling aside, however.) Or...Perhaps they are telling this person to "get over it" because they got screwed and it makes them feel a little better knowing that they are not the only ones. Who knows? Yes, that sounds nuts, but there are people like in the world. I highly doubt anyone that says a dead pixel doesn't even give them a bit of annoyance, especially at first. You get that nice, new product. It smells new. It looks new. The keys feel new. But wait...a dead what? A dead pixel? Are you kidding me! LOL. They got angry for a few minutes, at least.

generik
Dec 6, 2005, 03:03 PM
There's no need for Apple to have to go thru the whole smashing part -- they can just request ISO-13406-2 Class I certified flat panels. Those are guaranteed to have zero pixel defects, which is what you're saying Apple should check for before they package up a product to be sold.

Although I haven't found a price for a Class I flat panel, every reference to one I can find says it's significantly more expensive than Class 2 (which is what Apple currently uses).

"Significantly" sounds more than 10-20%.

Well, then they really should go through the smashing bit. I don't see how it is likely that they'd lose out, considering the people running the factory lines in China are literally paid pennies to the hour. They can be tasked to check the LCDs too.

xinxin
Dec 8, 2005, 12:24 AM
considering the people running the factory lines in China are literally paid pennies to the hour. They can be tasked to check the LCDs too.

500RMB=US$61.9 per month + providing accomodation and food. However, $US10 noodle you see in america chinatown could be $US0.2 where they are working (with better taste). So roughly you will get how much profit apple made by making these.

mattster16
Dec 8, 2005, 01:30 AM
I just opened the box to my brand new Sony DSC-N1 camera and in the manual it states that 1-5 dead pixels is considered acceptable by Sony. I guess just another example of a company's policy.

Kai
Dec 8, 2005, 03:48 AM
Seriously, you guys need to wize up.

How can you say "not my problem" when people tell you it would hugely inflate prices if manufacturers gave a guarantee on zero dead pixels??
How can paying $2000 more for the computer NOT be your problem?

Some TFT manufacturer (Philips?) actually gave a zero dead pixel guarantee once. Guess what: That policy was scrapped faster than you can say "faulty product" (and judging from this thread most of you can say this REALLY REALLY fast!)

I have some news for you: Every single harddrive on the planet comes with defects! Every one of them! Thus is the nature of the analogue world, where not everything is absolute! They're just masked out at the factory, but they're still there! So will you return that "faulty product", too? Well, good luck in finding one without faults!

You're really quick in screaming "faulty product" but you just won't consider the economic or also the ENVIRONMENTAL consequences of your stubborn logic!
You pay more for a Mac, but you pay more not because Apple gives the money to their LCD manufacturers but because OS X and all the iLife stuff it comes with needs to be made. Plus Apple is (so far!) designing their own hardware!
And you don't pay nearly as much more to warrant a zero dead pixel guarantee! We're talking about a freakin $2000 price raise!
And don't BS me with that "manufacturers tell us to accept it, but i'm not buying it" - Please think for a second: Dead pixels are annoying for everyone (some just tolerate it), so wouldn't you think that if it was technically no problem to make perfect displays one manufacturer would DO it and give a "dead pixel guarantee" to differentiate himself from the other vendors? Well, one actually tried and failed miserably!

840quadra
Dec 8, 2005, 04:34 AM
Libel is published defamation; slander is spoken.:)
Noted.



Seriously, you guys need to wize up.

How can you say "not my problem" when people tell you it would hugely inflate prices if manufacturers gave a guarantee on zero dead pixels??
How can paying $2000 more for the computer NOT be your problem?

Some TFT manufacturer (Philips?) actually gave a zero dead pixel guarantee once. Guess what: That policy was scrapped faster than you can say "faulty product" (and judging from this thread most of you can say this REALLY REALLY fast!)

I have some news for you: Every single harddrive on the planet comes with defects! Every one of them! Thus is the nature of the analogue world, where not everything is absolute! They're just masked out at the factory, but they're still there! So will you return that "faulty product", too? Well, good luck in finding one without faults!

You're really quick in screaming "faulty product" but you just won't consider the economic or also the ENVIRONMENTAL consequences of your stubborn logic!
You pay more for a Mac, but you pay more not because Apple gives the money to their LCD manufacturers but because OS X and all the iLife stuff it comes with needs to be made. Plus Apple is (so far!) designing their own hardware!
And you don't pay nearly as much more to warrant a zero dead pixel guarantee! We're talking about a freakin $2000 price raise!
And don't BS me with that "manufacturers tell us to accept it, but i'm not buying it" - Please think for a second: Dead pixels are annoying for everyone (some just tolerate it), so wouldn't you think that if it was technically no problem to make perfect displays one manufacturer would DO it and give a "dead pixel guarantee" to differentiate himself from the other vendors? Well, one actually tried and failed miserably!

HI!

http://www.streetwise.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=3098

Zero Dead Pixel Guarantee
This laptop costs $1999 US most places.

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000530047162/

Asus V6V laptop with zero dead-pixel guarantee
This monitor sells for MUCH less then $2000


http://www.nintek.com.au/x/scripts/prodList.asp?idcategory=411

Zero (0) Dead Pixel Guarantee for 90 days
Only guaranteed for 90 days, but that is enough for most of us (well me).

Point

This basically proves the point that offering a guarantee on the display does not break the bank. All 3 of these companies are respectable, and offer the buyer piece of mind over their competitors.

Kai
Dec 8, 2005, 04:45 AM
Their displays DONT match they published specs, so they MUST give you a replacement. Keep calling until you get one.

What Specs exactly are you referring to? Where exactly does it say every single pixel works on Apples HP? I'm most curious to learn, please do show me!

NO! He didnt get what he paid for. He paid for a screen resolution of 1440 x 900 on the 17" (or 1680 x 1050 for the 20"). Does he have all of those pixels?.

Yes. _Nowhere_ does it say they *all* have to be functional! Just like those bad sectors on your HD that got masked out in the factory...

Absolutely agree!

But we have to accept that LCD manufacturers seem unable to do this in a cost-effective manner. But that doesnt mean the consumer has to accept a shoddy product.

And that is why everyone with a dead pixel should raise bloody hell. This will result in more people getting what they actually paid for, and will make Apple do one of two things:

1) Post a disclaimer saying that 1-7 dead pixels is acceptable and LCDs with 1-7 dead pixels cannot be exchanged, thus putting the purchasing responsibility in the consumers hands

OR

2) Improve QC and produce better products, whilst still keeping customers in the dark regarding their 'policies' toward dead pixels.

Given that increasing QC drives up cost, I'll bet you choice 1 is Apple's move.

So it's suddenly all fine and dandy if you just sign this agreement while it's a huge problem that needs to be adressed that there is no such agreement right now. Right. Because that agreement changes **** about the pixels still being dead! What's the friggin point?

This basically proves the point that offering a guarantee on the display does not break the bank. All 3 of these companies are respectable, and offer the buyer piece of mind over their competitors.

Well - I would say Philips (or whoever it was that tried it and failed!) also is a respectable company. So let's see if Sony, Asus and Viewsonic can sustain this.. From what i see they don't offer it on all their products (Sony certainly doesn't, just google for "PSP" and "dead pixels"!) so it might just be a mixed calculation: Take a loss on one product and have the rumor that you're giving a zero pixel guarantee do its work and then tell people that complain about dead pixels on your other products that unfortunately this rule only applies to product X!
Dead pixels are obviously still a problem with all manufacturers. If it was that easy, wouldn't you think *everybody* would give such a guarantee?

maverick808
Dec 8, 2005, 06:09 AM
I was wrong earlier, Sony don't have a zero dead pixel policy. It was Samsung I was thinking of...

http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/01/1440201&tid=196&tid=152&tid=1

I'm still of the opinion that if I ever get dead pixels or any other serious flaws I'll simply return the machine when it arrives. UK law fully supports me on this and I'm glad it does.

840quadra
Dec 8, 2005, 06:56 AM
Well - I would say Philips (or whoever it was that tried it and failed!) also is a respectable company. So let's see if Sony, Asus and Viewsonic can sustain this.. From what i see they don't offer it on all their products (Sony certainly doesn't, just google for "PSP" and "dead pixels"!) so it might just be a mixed calculation: Take a loss on one product and have the rumor that you're giving a zero pixel guarantee do its work and then tell people that complain about dead pixels on your other products that unfortunately this rule only applies to product X!
Dead pixels are obviously still a problem with all manufacturers. If it was that easy, wouldn't you think *everybody* would give such a guarantee?

First off what point are you trying to make?


Dead pixels are annoying for everyone (some just tolerate it), so wouldn't you think that if it was technically no problem to make perfect displays one manufacturer would DO it and give a "dead pixel guarantee" to differentiate himself from the other vendors? Well, one actually tried and failed miserably!

You stated that a pixel guarantee was only offered by one company and it failed, also making it sound like nobody else did or would.

I posted examples to prove otherwise.


And you don't pay nearly as much more to warrant a zero dead pixel guarantee! We're talking about a freakin $2000 price raise!

Again I posted examples showing that this was also not the case.



From what i see they don't offer it on all their products (Sony certainly doesn't, just google for "PSP" and "dead pixels"!) so it might just be a mixed calculation:

First you point out that only one company offered a ZDP warranty and it failed, and that if others did prices would hike to levels $2000 over their standard price. Now that someone posts otherwise you are changing your argument to point out that companies that do offer a ZDP warranty do not for all their products?

Well since you are trying so hard to be correct, I will admit you are on that last point. What that doesn't change however, is the fact that you were wrong on the previous two points you tried so feverishly to make.

Should those companies offer ZDP warranties on all their products? In my opinion they shouldn't have to, as the entire system (screen drives, case, etc) should be covered under the regular warranty, and the companies goal should be to produce the best quality product possible, and stand behind it.

Am I mad at Apple if they have a few ... erm.. bad Apples? No! But I have the exact same attitude with Dell, Sony, Tosiba, Volkswagen, Audi, or any other company that will sometimes have issues. This is only the case if they are willing to work with the customers that are paying hard earned (sometimes) money to purchase these goods.

Bear
Dec 8, 2005, 07:25 AM
...
I'm still of the opinion that if I ever get dead pixels or any other serious flaws I'll simply return the machine when it arrives. UK law fully supports me on this and I'm glad it does.Dead pixels are not necessarily a serious flaw. It depends on how many and where. For instance if there is a dead (or stuck) pixel in the menu bar gors it really matter?

Now dead/stuck pixels in the main viewing area of the screen do get to be an issue, but it depends on if it is one pixel or several adjacent or a few spread out ove rthe screen.

Agter over a weeks use, I think I've noticed one stuck pixel on my 30" display it's a few pixels below the menu bar and maybe an inch left of center. If I had used a different background image I might never have noticed it. As a matter of fact I had to examine the background photo in Photoshop to make sure the pixel was incorrect and it wasn't something in the picture.

Most of the time I don't even notice the pixel - it's usually covered by the titlebar of some window. What am I going to do - complain, have it replaced and get one with possibly bad pixels and in areas that are worse? And who knows, sometimes stuck pixels fix themselves over time.

maverick808
Dec 8, 2005, 07:38 AM
Dead pixels are not necessarily a serious flaw.

In your opinion it's not serious. In mine it is so I'll return any machine with any dead pixel.

Now dead/stuck pixels in the main viewing area of the screen do get to be an issue, but it depends on if it is one pixel or several adjacent or a few spread out ove rthe screen.

This is also subjective. On one of the iMacs I returned it was actually a stuck pixel (red) right below the spotlight symbol at the top right. It was barely noticable as it was just on the border of the menu bar so that's fine in your opinion right? In mine it wasn't because when I activate FrontRow or view a movie full screen then there is no menu bar and suddenly there's a bright red dot always there in the corner throughout the movie.

I'm not picking on Apple for this policy - their policy is the standard policy for the majority of monitor sellers out there. However, regardless of any company's policy I am still fully in my rights to return any machine for any reason in the first 14 days and I will continue to do so for any dead, stuck or hot pixels.

If I lived in the USA I might be more annoyed about dead pixels and petioning for a policy change but since it's not a problem to get a refund here I can live with going through the hassle of returning machines until I get flawless ones.

Edge100
Dec 8, 2005, 07:58 AM
I just opened the box to my brand new Sony DSC-N1 camera and in the manual it states that 1-5 dead pixels is considered acceptable by Sony. I guess just another example of a company's policy.

Which you got to read AFTER you paid for the camera.

Unacceptable!

Edge100
Dec 8, 2005, 08:03 AM
Dead pixels are not necessarily a serious flaw. It depends on how many and where. For instance if there is a dead (or stuck) pixel in the menu bar gors it really matter?

Now dead/stuck pixels in the main viewing area of the screen do get to be an issue, but it depends on if it is one pixel or several adjacent or a few spread out ove rthe screen.

Agter over a weeks use, I think I've noticed one stuck pixel on my 30" display it's a few pixels below the menu bar and maybe an inch left of center. If I had used a different background image I might never have noticed it. As a matter of fact I had to examine the background photo in Photoshop to make sure the pixel was incorrect and it wasn't something in the picture.

Most of the time I don't even notice the pixel - it's usually covered by the titlebar of some window. What am I going to do - complain, have it replaced and get one with possibly bad pixels and in areas that are worse? And who knows, sometimes stuck pixels fix themselves over time.


Wow! I can't believe you would pay for a $2500 LCD, and not want it to be perfect. I would not put up with ANYTHING wrong with that screen (not to say that price would change my views, but for that money, its GOING to be perfect).

Apple gets away with this because people like you dont complain. The fact that you can rationalize the dead pixel is your problem, but you are making things worse for everyone.

Actually, maybe you've done me a favor: by not complaining, you've encouraged Apple to keep its "policy" of not telling the consumer its "policy" until after a problem arises, which means that I can demand an exchange on the basis that I didnt know the policy. If you did complain, maybe they'd start publicizing this.

I suppose your loss is my gain. Thanks!:confused:

Bear
Dec 8, 2005, 08:53 AM
Wow! I can't believe you would pay for a $2500 LCD, and not want it to be perfect. I would not put up with ANYTHING wrong with that screen (not to say that price would change my views, but for that money, its GOING to be perfect).
...How much time (and possibly money) am I going to spend to keep exchanging a screen? With only one stuck (not dead) pixel out off over 4 million the odds of me getting a better screen is rather slim.

And also, the stuck pixel wouldn't have been noticed if I had used a different background image.

Should I complain? Well I already known the replacement policy for stuck/dead pixels. I'd rather save my time for doing things like actually using the computer that the screen is on.

If I notice more bad pixels, then I'll do something. Or maybe I'll run a full check a few months after Apple releases an updated 30" screen. And if I have enough bad pixels to get a replacement, hopefully I'll get the new model.

maverick808
Dec 8, 2005, 09:08 AM
How much time (and possibly money) am I going to spend to keep exchanging a screen?

When I exchanged my iMacs I spent no time other than putting it back in the box since Apple arranged to have it collected and delivered to my door.

I also spent no more money since Apple paid for pickup of the faulty iMac and delivery of the new one with no restocking fees.

With only one stuck (not dead) pixel out off over 4 million the odds of me getting a better screen is rather slim.

I'm sorry but this has to be one of the stupidest statements I've heard. You are implying simply because 4 million is a high number that faults are unavoidable. Every single PowerPC processor on sale in Apple machines today has at least 5 million transistors in it yet there is obviously a zero-fault tolerance for the transistors in there.

aristobrat
Dec 8, 2005, 09:11 AM
Wow! I can't believe you would pay for a $2500 LCD, and not want it to be perfect. I would not put up with ANYTHING wrong with that screen (not to say that price would change my views, but for that money, its GOING to be perfect).

Apple gets away with this because people like you dont complain. The fact that you can rationalize the dead pixel is your problem, but you are making things worse for everyone.
Apple's not "getting away" with anything with Cinema Displays.

The Cinema Display "tech specs" (publicly posted and easily found) state that these monitors are "ISO 13406 part 2".

Edge100
Dec 8, 2005, 09:26 AM
Apple's not "getting away" with anything with Cinema Displays.

The Cinema Display "tech specs" (publicly posted and easily found) state that these monitors are "ISO 13406 part 2".

Lovely.

As I have repeatedly stated, however, I have a zero-tolerance policy on ANY LCD screen, and I would not pay for ANY LCD if I was told that a dead pixel would not be grounds for an exchange.

And until Apple decides to make their seven pixel-tolerance policy public, I will continue to buy Apple LCDs and return them if they dont work properly.

Others may do as they wish, and others will be called out if they complain about it later without taking any action.

aristobrat
Dec 8, 2005, 09:30 AM
http://www.streetwise.com.au/product_info.php?products_id=3098

This monitor appears to be 22% more expensive than the other equiv. Sony 17" monitor that this site sells.

All three of the examples you posted seem to be limited marketed tests. The monitors are only available in Australia? The laptop is the only one ASUS is offering this guarantee with?

With as conservatively as these products have been rolled out, how are you able to state that they're examples of how it doesn't break the bank?

aristobrat
Dec 8, 2005, 09:40 AM
As I have repeatedly stated, however, I have a zero-tolerance policy on ANY LCD screen, and I would not pay for ANY LCD if I was told that a dead pixel would not be grounds for an exchange.
Fair enough.

And until Apple decides to make their seven pixel-tolerance policy public, I will continue to buy Apple LCDs and return them if they dont work properly.
Again, fair enough. :)

840quadra
Dec 8, 2005, 11:56 PM
This monitor appears to be 22% more expensive than the other equiv. Sony 17" monitor that this site sells.

All three of the examples you posted seem to be limited marketed tests. The monitors are only available in Australia? The laptop is the only one ASUS is offering this guarantee with?

With as conservatively as these products have been rolled out, how are you able to state that they're examples of how it doesn't break the bank?

Was that my point?

No, My point was to post proof that there are current examples of ZDP products, that don't break the bank, nothing more, nothing less. The fact that they are not worldly available, or abundant is irrelevant, as that was not the point I was attempting to make.

As for your second question, I think the list prices speak for themselves :rolleyes: .

$575au Sony Monitor
$319au Viewsonic Monitor
$1999us Asus laptop

Hardly bank busting, considering the price for similar products with no ZDP are not much less.

dmetzcher
Dec 9, 2005, 10:10 AM
I have some news for you: Every single harddrive on the planet comes with defects! Every one of them! Thus is the nature of the analogue world, where not everything is absolute! They're just masked out at the factory, but they're still there! So will you return that "faulty product", too? Well, good luck in finding one without faults!
This is not a fair comparison, though it's not the first time in this thread that it's be brought up. The fact is, you can't see bad secotrs on a hard drive, and they don't affect your work. Getting something that has a defect you can see (a deep scratch on a surface, a dead pixel, etc.) is different. It can also affect your work if you are working with images and/or video. The defective hard drive will not affect your work at all, so long as the sectors are marked off and not used, and so long as they are no so great that large portions of the drive are gone.

Don't compare the two. If we must make a comparison, compare a dead pixel to a bad key on a keyboard (which will affect the way you work - I know this firsthand). Compare it to something that can actually affect what you do. Compare it to something that you have to look at and see every day. Consider that, when you first get a new computer, you expect it to be pristine.

Also, I understand your argument, and don't necessarily disagree. However, Apple needs to make this policy of theirs apparent to the customer. That is the problem, and nothing else. If they posted this policy just under the monitor where they tell you the resolution (think of a previous comment made by someone comparing this to the description of hard drive capacity). They must make this policy known to the consumer. I bought my iBook in a store, and no one told me the policy, so it doesn't exist. If I am not getting something in pristine condition, I need to be told that before I buy it. If I may or may not get something in pristine condition, and I have to accept a certain fault level, I need to be told that.

dmetzcher
Dec 9, 2005, 10:14 AM
So it's suddenly all fine and dandy if you just sign this agreement while it's a huge problem that needs to be adressed that there is no such agreement right now. Right. Because that agreement changes **** about the pixels still being dead! What's the friggin point?
It's a legal issue. It's about not trying to hide things. If this is totally acceptable, and everyone is fine with it, they can post the policy and they'd lose no money. I think they'd see a very slight drop in sales for those displays though. People might look at CRT monitors instead. Not everyone, but some would.

If several people sued Aple in a class action suit, Apple might not win. If they lost, one of the things that they'd have to agree to change is their notification policy about their dead pixel policy.

cashmoney
Dec 9, 2005, 11:25 AM
Try running this video for a couple hours, I tried it on one of my lcds that had a pixel stuck to blue and it got it unstuck.
http://www.widowpc.com/members/fix_dead_pixels.zip

That video almost gave me a seizure

paulct
Dec 12, 2005, 12:50 AM
well, i called, explained my situation, the guy said "yep, thats too bad, there is nothing we can do". I told him i knew they could do something about it, and i had a few hours to spare, so could i talk to a supervisor. The guy then laughed and said just a second, put me on hold, then came back and said they would replace it free. THEN he went on to explain that usually no one argues back, and he doesnt know why. We talked for a while about how the pixel policy is ridiculous and so are the people who put up with it.

go apple and people who stand up for themself.

just because its a policy or rule... does not mean it cant be broken. ever.

dmetzcher
Dec 12, 2005, 08:49 PM
well, i called, explained my situation, the guy said "yep, thats too bad, there is nothing we can do". I told him i knew they could do something about it, and i had a few hours to spare, so could i talk to a supervisor. The guy then laughed and said just a second, put me on hold, then came back and said they would replace it free. THEN he went on to explain that usually no one argues back, and he doesnt know why. We talked for a while about how the pixel policy is ridiculous and so are the people who put up with it.

go apple and people who stand up for themself.

just because its a policy or rule... does not mean it cant be broken. ever.
Good for you. I'm happy that you stuck it and got what you deserved.