Resale Value of PowerPC Laptops after the Intel Switch?

[Jomoma]

What's your best guess of what the possible new intel ibooks would do to the resale value of the last version of powerpc ibooks?

My best guess would be that the value would go a hundred or so below the price of new intel books, but I'd like to know what you think. I hope the price of the new one's doesn't drop too much, otherwise I'll be losing a bunch of resale value.

Thanks!

[ITASOR]

Keeping in mind the $800 intel iBook rumor, I figure I'll probably get around $550-625+shipping for my iBook after they're introduced. :) Suck, but hey that's life.

[generik]

What's your best guess of what the possible new intel ibooks would do to the resale value of the last version of powerpc ibooks?

My best guess would be that the value would go a hundred or so below the price of new intel books, but I'd like to know what you think. I hope the price of the new one's doesn't drop too much, otherwise I'll be losing a bunch of resale value.

Thanks!

It will go down a lot.

1) Unlike previous generational transitions (ie from G1 -> G2), there is no forward compatibility here. You need to *trust* devs to compile for PPC to ensure continued support for your platform.

2) PPC is dead

3) The Intel macs are going to be SOOOOOO much faster, remember the comments from devs who got the x86 boxes? "This thing is fast!", and those are running on the old Netburst P4s, the new ones will be quite phenomenal

And of course, with the introduction of x86 macs I foresee the trend of "Macs having good resale value" will finally be gone.

1) Unlike currently when product launches are really special media affairs, with the abundant options from Intel Apple can pretty much make quiet speedbumps every so often as they wish.

2) If OSX-x86 gets cracked, a lot of demand for Macs will dry up, either you are buying for the loox, or you are not. And nobody who is after appearances is going to be strutting around with an outdated model.

3) If it so happens that Apple decides there is a future in selling OSX officially, bam, there goes.

Don't count on resale value of Macs. A Mac is no different from a PC now.

[rye9]

The Intel macs are going to be SOOOOOO much faster

Why does everyone say this? The current macs are not THAT slow. Heck, its not like you have to wait a minute to open up an app or anything. Intel macs cant be THAT MUCH faster than the PPC ones now.

[Applespider]

I'd say that if you are one of those people who like to buy every other upgrade cycle and sell for a small loss, you're probably going to get hit.

The market for older Macs (2-3 years) will probably stay fairly constant. People buying those aren't too worried about being able to run the latest apps, they just want a laptop they can use and carry around for basic mail/web etc.

[iMeowbot]

One wild card will be third party software support. There are Classic apps that some people still need but won't be supported on Intel. There is also the likelihood that at least some newer software won't be ported before PPC goes away, if at all. If any of those programs are unique or really necessary, that could help prop up the value of the older hardware for a while.

[zap2]

[QUOTE=generik]It will go down a lot.

1) Unlike previous generational transitions (ie from G1 -> G2),

You know there was never a G1 or G2


but if iBooks sell for 800 will DIE, becuz im lookign into a iBook after xMas

and how much would Apple sell PPC iBooks for?

[ll350]

When they first announced the Intel switch, I was kinda upset, and said, "I'll never buy one!" But since then I have mellowed significantly. Maybe there'll be some people who still are upset, and swear off Mac-Intels forever! LOL

[ahunter3]

When they first announced the Intel switch, I was kinda upset, and said, "I'll never buy one!" But since then I have mellowed significantly. Maybe there'll be some people who still are upset, and swear off Mac-Intels forever! LOL

Certainly not forever! I'm going to buy up one of the last PowerPC PowerBooks (presumably a current-version 17-incher, since it doesn't seem likely that Apple's going to bump the specs again before going Intel). Then some time around 2010-2012, I'll definitely be looking once again. (I would assume that would mean an Intel processor, or bank of processors, in my vintage 2012 PB, but a lot can happen between now and then, and OSX is highly portable)

[Jomoma]

thanks for your thoughts, but I'm hoping that the PPC books don't lose too much value. I love apple, but I'm hoping that the first round of Intel books have some problems that actually make the last round of PPC's desireable until Rev. B comes around.

Probably won't happen, but I don't want to take a huge loss to upgrade to intel. If they're as cheap as 800 though, maybe I'll keep the PPC around and grab a intel one too.

We'll just have to wait and see.

[jaduffy108]

Why does everyone say this? The current macs are not THAT slow. Heck, its not like you have to wait a minute to open up an app or anything. Intel macs cant be THAT MUCH faster than the PPC ones now.

>>well...actually, the Mac/Intel iBooks and Powerbooks can and will be "THAT MUCH" faster than the current PPC machines. PowerMacs are competitive.

Generik is right on every count imo.

I just wish Apple had chosen AMD over Intel. Then again, that would have made just TOO MUCH sense :rolleyes: Even Dell(!) is moving to add AMD systems soon cuz HP and others selling AMD systems are kicking their a$$. Oh Steve....

peace

[jeremy.king]

It will go down a lot.

1) Unlike previous generational transitions (ie from G1 -> G2), there is no forward compatibility here. You need to *trust* devs to compile for PPC to ensure continued support for your platform.


XCode doesn't allow you to compile for just Intel as of date, so XCode written applications will be universal.


2) PPC is dead


Really? Aren't these now powering the Big 3 gaming consoles?


3) The Intel macs are going to be SOOOOOO much faster, remember the comments from devs who got the x86 boxes? "This thing is fast!", and those are running on the old Netburst P4s, the new ones will be quite phenomenal


I wouldn't count on it. There was an article posted in these forums that showed that Linux was almost 10x faster than OS X on the SAME PPC based hardware. So its not necessarily the hardware slowing down Macs, so changing architectures will most likely have little impact on performance.

Edit: Here are those links
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2436
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2520

[jaduffy108]

[QUOTE=kingjr3]XCode doesn't allow you to compile for just Intel as of date, so XCode written applications will be universal.

>>>yep.."universal"...now to Reality...by Jan 07, the new MacTel capable apps will run MUCH better on the MacTel platform than the PPC platform....thus "inspiring" people to buy new machines. Anyone who believes Apple, Adobe, Alias, etc, etc are going to invest resources in PPC on par with the new platform are smokin' something. Plus, 10.5 will also run much better on the MacTel platform than PPC...count on it. Apple said OS X ran great on G3 iBooks...uhhh, yea right. Current examples...Photoshop, Maya, etc, etc are significantly more optimized on x86 than PPC. Adobe's brass openly stated this recently..and I know it from experience!

Really? Aren't these now powering the Big 3 gaming consoles?

>>>Not a valid comparison. Also, the PPC road map does not compare to AMD's or Intel's (conroe/merom) roadmap in terms of performance.


I wouldn't count on it. There was an article posted in these forums that showed that Linux was almost 10x faster than OS X on the SAME PPC based hardware. So its not necessarily the hardware slowing down Macs, so changing architectures will most likely have little impact on performance.

>>I agree...Linux rocks on some apps, but limited!!......yet...speaking of anandtech links:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2627&p=1

The above shows how Yonah stacks up against AMD's X2 chips...Intel killer chips btw. Bottom line...the Yonah holds its own against these great performing DESKTOP(!) processors on 3d rendering, etc. Yonah doesn't "win", but it competes. Now..again..Reality..I own a revD Powerbook 17" 1.67 with 2 gigs of RAM..so "loaded". I also own an AMD X2 workstation for 3d work. I did a render test last week... using a Maya zoorender mental rey file. My Powerbook took 5 minutes and 45 seconds to complete the render...my AMD X2 system took 51 seconds. Less than ONE minute! Sooo, the moral of the story is...this move to Yonah based MacTel laptops is going to be a HUGE performance gain....(once software is *truly* ready). When conroe arrives for the desktops...a similar, though lesser boost. Back to this thread...the performance gains of x86 plus PPC being a dead end platform adds up to Powerbooks and iBooks tanking in value. If you disagree..that's cool...want to buy my Powerbook? ;)

That said, Steve should have gone with AMD.

peace

[generik]

I am a AMD fanboi too, but looking at Intel's roadmap I really have to say I am quite worried about AMD's prospects in the future, especially in view that I've heard of AMD still having issues with 65nm. :(

[840quadra]

Back to this thread...the performance gains of x86 plus PPC being a dead end platform adds up to Powerbooks and iBooks tanking in value. If you disagree..that's cool...want to buy my Powerbook? ;)


As others have stated in this thread, the performance of the used hardware is a somewhat Moot point. don't believe me?

Take a look at the current ebay, and Amazon market for used CLAMSHELL ibooks that are G3s, and running on truly dated hardware architecture. It isn't really the performance that is keeping these alive, it is the fact that they are well built, good looking, and can run Classic or OS X for basic uses. These do just fine for people that want Macintosh portability for light applications, and even some light graphics or Audio. Early models get $150+ while later loaded models get $375+ on average!

My guess is the used market won't care how much faster the intel models will be, as it is the low market share and appeal that makes the values of older Apple hardware stay high, not necessarily the speed.

I also believe that Apple will try hard to support the PPC architecture for a minimum of 3 years worth of updates and patches, if not closer to 5 - 7. Apple is FULLY aware of the fact that many mac users are still running G3 iMacs, Powerbooks, iBooks, and Powermacs. I expect Leopard to drop support for the G3, but I also don't see support for the G4 going away anytime soon, as apple STILL sells G4 products, and many G4 Powermacs, and iMacs are Still covered in Applecare.


But those are just my thoughts and opinions, nothing more

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=47064&dateline=1127904880&type=profile

[gekko513]

It all depends on the price of the new Intel based Macs. If the price goes down, the resell value of current Macs will clearly go down with it.

but

I disagree with generik. I think that if Apple moves the entire iBook line to Intel for instance, the resell value of PPC iBooks will stay high over time just because you can't get PPC iBooks from Apple any more.

[generik]

It all depends on the price of the new Intel based Macs. If the price goes down, the resell value of current Macs will clearly go down with it.

but

I disagree with generik. I think that if Apple moves the entire iBook line to Intel for instance, the resell value of PPC iBooks will stay high over time just because you can't get PPC iBooks from Apple any more.

Well, this morning I was just looking through a brochure from Dull..

A 14" laptop with a 1.4Ghz centrino CPU for only A$899.

An iBook will probably cost A$1400.

I understand that Steve likes to gorge us 20% more than usual, but I fail to see how it works out even with these figures.

With the Powerbook it gets more ridiculous, A$3100 for this obsolete junk?! The only reason Apple is getting away with it now is because they are the only ones making it. In the future when they switch over to Intel they will be in a much more competitive marketplace and would definitely have to buck up in terms of affordability.

You may argue that Apple products are good quality... and aesthetically pleasing... yadda yadda, but people will be able to look *straight on*.. Yonah 2.16 Duo in those MacTel PBs, and the same Yonah 2.16 Duo in a Dull, and make their purchase decision immediately based on that.

No more special "Myth of the Mhz Myth", no more special OS and hardware, essentially most of the magic is gone.

Finally, I have to add that it is irrelevant that Apple is special because they deliberately incorporated DRM into their OS. Consumers may be dumb but they are not that dumb, they will see through it immediately.

[gekko513]

Well, this morning I was just looking through a brochure from Dull..

A 14" laptop with a 1.4Ghz centrino CPU for only A$899.

An iBook will probably cost A$1400.
There always seems to be a catch with those special offers from Dell. You get lured to their site by these offers and then you end up with something that costs around A$1400 anyway, when you spec it up the way you want.

[GregUofMN]

What's your best guess of what the possible new intel ibooks would do to the resale value of the last version of powerpc ibooks?

My best guess would be that the value would go a hundred or so below the price of new intel books, but I'd like to know what you think. I hope the price of the new one's doesn't drop too much, otherwise I'll be losing a bunch of resale value.

Thanks!

I've been wondering this for a while. I'm considering getting rid of my 15"PB when the come out with intel G5 PBs. But there is alway the question of which, powerpc or intel, will be a more stable machine. If the intel has problems with viruses (knock on wood it won't), but if it does, the powerpc's may be more "valuable" or harder to come by, right?

[risc]

If the intel has problems with viruses (knock on wood it won't), but if it does, the powerpc's may be more "valuable" or harder to come by, right?

Why would Intel have problems with viruses? Viruses are a Windows problem not a processor one. Just look at the amount of viruses on Windows, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, GNU/Linux. Oh wait there aren't any on the last 4 OSes. Now I know some one is going to try and bring up some exploit for the OLD Intel processors, but that isn't worth mentioning here.

[Lord Blackadder]

The shortest answer to the OP's question is that PPC laptops will experience a dip in resale value, but prices will remain pretty stable.

When the Mac Mini came out it was predicted that used Mac sales would bottom out due to the huge price overlap with the Mini. Yet the opposite happened: Reseller prices for G4 Macs increased slightly and have remained stable since, and there are indications that the seconhand Mac market is now stronger than ever.

On the laptop side, G3 Powerbooks and even Powerbook 3400/1400 laptops are still holding pretty strong values considering their age. There is a strong installed base of users who are actively upgrading/maintaining these old Macs.

My guess is that, like 68k Macs, there will be a lot of holdouts and the architecture will live on for years after support is dropped. In the short term, that means that a very strong G4 laptop market will exist for a while after the first couple revs of Intel Macs are released.

So I wouldn't worry.

[tristan]

I think you can look at what this PB update did to the price of the old model. Since this update included a price cut, that pushed the price of the older model down dramatically. A new PB 15" 1.67ghz that was selling for $2299 in early September was suddenly available for $1699, a 27% drop overnight in a metter of weeks. I think PPC PBs will fall in price very quickly, and will then fall some more over time.

So my guess is that a top of the line 15" PPC PB that sells for $1999 the day before the Intel launch will be worth $1500 two weeks after the launch, and within another eighteen months, that'll be down to $1000.

Of course, that could change if the Intel PBs have problems. (Strong possibility?)

[risc]

Of course, that could change if the Intel PBs have problems. (Strong possibility?)

I find it hard to believe there will be any major problems with the Rev A Intel Macs other than a lack of native software. Apple can't afford to move to Intel and have it screw up, I'm expecting nice fast, stable hardware in the Rev A. I think we all need to remember that even though Apple only mentioned the move a few months back that the R & D has been going on for years and years. All the way back to NeXT if you like.

[Lord Blackadder]

The Intel books will probably be done right, but one never can predict what kind of quality-control problem could rear it's ugly head (remember the flaming batteries?). Still, I'm confidant that the CPU transition will go smoothly.

[tristan]

Ah, you obviously haven't heard my Powerbook 5300cs story. The Powerbook 5300cs - the first PowerPC laptop. Pretty big deal for Apple. They wouldn't screw that up, would they? Only cost me three grand to find out. Long story short, a year and a half later, I bought a Samsung running Win95 just to get a stable computer.

[risc]

I don't consider any of the pre-OS X OSes to be stable so I guess it figures. ;)

[tristan]

Yeah, but before then (the Performa and Quadra days) things were pretty stable. Basically those were dark days for Apple. Dark days for computers in general, because I would argue that in 1996, there was no decent OS on the market unless you could pony up $10K for an Indy.

[risc]

I used Linux back then, it did everything I needed but I'll agree the consumer OSes seemed pretty damn bad. :D

[Lord Blackadder]

Yeah, but before then (the Performa and Quadra days) things were pretty stable. Basically those were dark days for Apple. Dark days for computers in general, because I would argue that in 1996, there was no decent OS on the market unless you could pony up $10K for an Indy.

One of my friends has an Indy, I always thought that was the coolest machine of the 90's. ;)

When I first started using Macs, it was the era of the fast and stable OS 7.1....then came 7.5.3 and the other bloatware. The early PowerPCs really suffered with the later versions of OS 7.x.x. OS 8 was neither good nor bad on the whole, and OS 9 was a mixed bag as well - I had good luck with OS 8.1, not so good luck with later OS 8.x.x versions, and I felt that OS 9.x.x was slow on my 266MHz iMac.

Tristan, you pretty much bought the worst portable Mac ever made, and I'm impressed that you stuck with Macs at all :eek: :D . Still, we have a few later rev 5300s at the lab where I work and Apple seems to have ironed out the problems later in the laptop's life, since these are still going strong. But I've heard more than enough horror stories about the 5300 to believe them.

[Phatpat]

I wouldn't be surprised if current gen iBooks sold for about 85-90% of the price of a new iBook.

[tristan]

Yeah, using that Powerbook was like playing a game of minesweeper... one wrong click and you'd see BOOM, the bomb on the screen! :eek: I came back to the Mac about six years later, after I saw my uncle use an iBook for a weekend while I struggled with Windows ME.

[crazydreaming]

It's kinda sad to think that the powerbook I spend $2,000 on not too long ago won't be worth nearly that after the Intel Books are introduced. But, I plan on keeping it for 4 years anyway, so by that far in the future I don't think it's worth worrying about. Even 4 year old notebooks aren't worth too much today, or are they?

[generik]

It's kinda sad to think that the powerbook I spend $2,000 on not too long ago won't be worth nearly that after the Intel Books are introduced. But, I plan on keeping it for 4 years anyway, so by that far in the future I don't think it's worth worrying about. Even 4 year old notebooks aren't worth too much today, or are they?

Sell it now :)

[crazydreaming]

Sell it now :)

And go computerless until they come out? lol

It's value has already decreased. Unless the prices drop significantly when the Intels come out, I would consider trying to sell mine right away... but most likely not. I'm happy with it.

[Macky-Mac]

It's kinda sad to think that the powerbook I spend $2,000 on not too long ago won't be worth nearly that after the Intel Books are introduced. But, I plan on keeping it for 4 years anyway, so by that far in the future I don't think it's worth worrying about. Even 4 year old notebooks aren't worth too much today, or are they?


if you keep it for 4 more years than its resale value really doesn't mean a thing....use it for 4 more and you'll have gotten good value from it

[cgratti]

What's your best guess of what the possible new intel ibooks would do to the resale value of the last version of powerpc ibooks?

My best guess would be that the value would go a hundred or so below the price of new intel books, but I'd like to know what you think. I hope the price of the new one's doesn't drop too much, otherwise I'll be losing a bunch of resale value.

Thanks!

IMO, if your only cutting the price by $100 for a used PPC, I would rather spend the extra $100 and get a new Intel model. I will soon be in the market for an ibook, I hope they drop the prices to rock bottom.... So everyone can afford one.

[Lord Blackadder]

IMO, if your only cutting the price by $100 for a used PPC, I would rather spend the extra $100 and get a new Intel model. I will soon be in the market for an ibook, I hope they drop the prices to rock bottom.... So everyone can afford one.

One big factor to think about is how quickly the Pro Apps like Motion, Final Cut and Photoshop are ported. Pro users who invested Quad G5s will probably stick with PPC a for while, and won't mind using a G4 Powerbook. Anyway PPC will be around in the PowerMac for another year at least, so the G4 Powerbook will not be an orphan for a while yet.

[generik]

IMO, if your only cutting the price by $100 for a used PPC, I would rather spend the extra $100 and get a new Intel model. I will soon be in the market for an ibook, I hope they drop the prices to rock bottom.... So everyone can afford one.

The fact that Apple can give these attractive price cuts each time they end a line shows just how much markup these things really have :(

[Jomoma]

By the way, is there anywhere to find some data of what resale values have done after a major upgrade? I'd love to see what has happened in the past when a major Rev A comes around.

Basically, I'm not worring, either I'll keep the PPC around forever, or dump it right before Rev B comes out.

Another weird question, does apple care keep around a bunch of old hardware to replace failing old equipment, or do they upgrade you if you have a problem. I haven't sprung for the apple care yet (I have a special insurance policy that covers accidental and everything else), but I might if it means a free upgrade if there's a problem in a few years.

Thanks!

[Jschultz]

It's kinda sad to think that the powerbook I spend $2,000 on not too long ago won't be worth nearly that after the Intel Books are introduced. But, I plan on keeping it for 4 years anyway, so by that far in the future I don't think it's worth worrying about. Even 4 year old notebooks aren't worth too much today, or are they?

Well, my 400 mhz G4 TiBook will have it's 5th birthday next month. It originally sold for $2599, and it is now worth about $400.

So, it's now worth 1/6 of it's original value. And this is still using the same PPC G4 archetecture. I wonder how much lower it would be if it made a complete chip switch.

[tristan]

Yeah, today a 4yr old machine would be a TiBook 667mhz. Would you buy one now? That's the kind of thing you give to your grandma so she can check email. After four years, hopefully you've gotten your money's worth and resale value isn't that big a deal.

[California]

Yeah, today a 4yr old machine would be a TiBook 667mhz. Would you buy one now? That's the kind of thing you give to your grandma so she can check email. After four years, hopefully you've gotten your money's worth and resale value isn't that big a deal.

You can bump up the CPU in the 400 Tibook at Daystar -- to 550mhz. Not much but puts it back under warranty and makes it a LITTLE more modern.

[840quadra]

Of course, that could change if the Intel PBs have problems. (Strong possibility?)

I know others have commented on this too, but to add to what they said. The management and most of the company is totally different now as compared to the mid 90's. Apple is under new management (jobs and company) and has many new engineers in their staff.

[generik]

Well, my 400 mhz G4 TiBook will have it's 5th birthday next month. It originally sold for $2599, and it is now worth about $400.

So, it's now worth 1/6 of it's original value. And this is still using the same PPC G4 archetecture. I wonder how much lower it would be if it made a complete chip switch.

Well a 4 year old PC is... worthless.

[ewinemiller]

I don't consider any of the pre-OS X OSes to be stable so I guess it figures. ;)

Yeah I remember in the OS8/9 days I used to keep an unfolded paper clip on my desk just to push the reset button on my bondi blue. I did that more often than a normal shutdown. I am amazed when I see people still today talk about the good old days of OS9, are they nuts?

[ewinemiller]

Well a 4 year old PC is... worthless.

But also probably didn't cost you $2599 new.

I also wouldn't say worthless. I know lots of folks still using machines >= 4 years old they have plenty of worth in terms of usefulness. You just wouldn't be able to get money out of it. Why pay $400 for a 4 year old PC when $400 will buy you a new one that will be 4-5x faster.

[phonic pol]

As others have stated in this thread, the performance of the used hardware is a somewhat Moot point. don't believe me?

My guess is the used market won't care how much faster the intel models will be, as it is the low market share and appeal that makes the values of older Apple hardware stay high, not necessarily the speed.
[/IMG]

Most sense I've read on this thread. I totally agree with your post.

[Bear]

Are you buying the computer as an investment in hardware? Or are you buying a computer so you can use it?

When you buy a computer, it should be configured with an eye towards what you need. Yes, it might make sense to get some [inexpensive] options to increase the resale value, but if all you care about is resale value, buy real estate - that keeps going up in price.

[localghost]

Yeah I remember in the OS8/9 days I used to keep an unfolded paper clip on my desk just to push the reset button on my bondi blue. I did that more often than a normal shutdown. I am amazed when I see people still today talk about the good old days of OS9, are they nuts?

I would never want to go back, but OS 9 was a nice system. VERY fast on my 0.4 Ghz PowerBook and very solid as long as you could live without MS and AOL. With any of those crappy apps brining the whole system down they had to make something to compete with W2k, so here we are. :D

I went to Win95 from OS 7 and it was like heaven to be back to the Mac. I still have a copy of OS 9 on my PowerBook drive, simply because battery time is about 1/2 longer and it can sleep for AGES (>10h for light use on current Macs, anybody?) . :cool:

[Peter Griffin]

I don't know.. Once you own/use something for 4+ years doesn't the sentimental value outweigh the measly hundred you could squeeze from eBay? I'd much rather give it to a relative (grandma like the above) than sell it off. BUT if you are worred about the intel switch then by all means sell the bugger now because anyone who tells your PPC can still go for anything above 50% is BSing.

[tristan]

Yeah, there's something about "I'm worried about resale value" and "I'm keeping it for four years" that doesn't add up. :)

If you can go four years without dropping it, consider yourself ahead of the game.

[Jomoma]

Yeah, there's something about "I'm worried about resale value" and "I'm keeping it for four years" that doesn't add up. :)

If you can go four years without dropping it, consider yourself ahead of the game.

IF the intels are as incredible as every one says, and IF the resale value some how didn't plumit, than I might sell. That's the situation in which resale value would matter.

IF on the other hand, intels have problems (like most Rev A products do), and if the resale value were to tank some how then I'd be happy waiting 2-3 (maybe even 4) years to upgrade.

To me it seems that after the intial hit after the next upgrade cycle, the value stays relatively stable, so I'm not too concerned about it now.

[Jschultz]

A 4-5 year PC laptop is kind of meh. My girlfriends mom has a c. 1999-2000 compaq notebook, and the thing is literally falling apart, and on it's knees when it comes to running stuff. At least my ol' TiBook still zips through. Since all I ever do is surf the net and run MS office, this thing will still keep me happy years ahead. I want to be like that one guy out there who still has a Lombard, WallStreet or Pismo..and is still chugging away 6-7 years later.