Intel Viiv Platform... and Apple?

[MacRumors]

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

Last week, Intel announced (http://www.intel.com/personal/desktop/viiv/index.htm) company support for its Viiv media platform due in the 1st quarter of 2006.

A Viiv-based PC is expected to provide a standard compatibility platform to provide:

- Remote control operation
- Dual-core processor
- On demand Movies, Music, Pictures and Games
- Ability to Record, Pause and Rewind Live TV (DVR functionality)
- Surround sound/home theatre support

The recent press release (http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20051130corp.htm) announced the adoption by a variety of companies to provide compatibility testing and content for Viiv.

Intel is providing the engineering support, specifications and verification tools to content owners, content distributors, portals, software application developers and device vendors to help deliver Internet–based content services and software applications that are tested and verified to work with an Intel Viiv technology-based PC. The verified content services and applications will be capable of being accessed in full screen format with simple access using a remote control.

Meanwhile, recent rumors (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2005/12/20051202133834.shtml) have pointed to Apple revamping their media distribution with the announcement of new partners for feature length as well as expanded television offerings. While there has been the typical analyst speculation that Apple and Intel may somehow be working together on a tie-in between Viiv and Mac OS X, there has been some independent verification that there will indeed be further cooperation between the two companies and Viiv.

[~Shard~]

So, is this going to tie into the next Mac mini then? Or if Intel is going their own way with this, where will that leave Apple? Doing it on their own as well, or will there possibly be a link involving OS X somehow? Just random thoughts... :cool:

[DMann]

So, is this going to tie into the next Mac mini then? Or if Intel is going their own way with this, where will that leave Apple? Doing it on their own as well, or will there possibly be a link involving OS X somehow? Just random thoughts... :cool:


And so many wondered why Steve jumped over
to Intel..........

[mingisback]

I can't wait to dump off my Tivo for one of these babys if this is true.

There is no Tivo unit that supports HD Cable yet....

I really hope that Apple has Cable Card Support in this.

[yoda13]

I hope that leads to expanded TV offerings....24, NCIS, and Prison Break:D

I cannot wait.

[blueflame]

ya know... go apple, i really want them to take this industry by storm. anything that will help that i say go them.i want to look back, when my kids will one day say Microwho?
any they may only know them from xbox
A

[roy_dan]

Take it one step further, Apple should collaborate with Nintendo for the upcoming Revolution in the same fashion as Windows Media Center interacts with XBox 360...but one that actually works. hehe

But seriously, Nintendo is the only console player without a PC companion and Apple isn't known for being a gaming platform. I say mutually advantageous!

[~Shard~]

And so many wondered why Steve jumped over
to Intel..........

Yeah, exactly. There is no way that Steve was not privy to this information when he was in talks with Intel about their roadmaps, future plans, etc. before he made his decision to switch. This is yet another reason, as you say, why the switch to Intel makes sense. The question that remains is how exactly is Apple going to take advantage/be involved with this? Intel Mac mini?

[DTphonehome]

Funny how nowadays any Intel rumor becomes a Macrumor. :)

[~Shard~]

Funny how nowadays any Intel rumor becomes a Macrumor. :)

When Apple is rumored to have something like this in the works, there's rumors of a Intel Mac mini PVR/DVR, Apple has a partnership with Intel, and iTMS/iPods are making the foray into video content, you bet it does! :cool:

[Yvan256]

But seriously, Nintendo is the only console player without a PC companion and Apple isn't known for being a gaming platform. I say mutually advantageous!

Not only that, but if you check both companies, they have similar philosophies: what hardware do we need to run our software? Both are about the experience, not the hardware.

[mcmillan]

I think the Jan '06 expo will be one of the bests in Mac history... think about it:

-At least one Mac is getting an Intel processor
-It's very likely that we will see a super cool media center
-It's likely that we will see a preview of Leopard, or at least a few random tips about it
-iLife '06
-Maybe "Numbers" will be added to iWork

I can't wait, wake me up next year :cool:

[~Shard~]

I think the Jan '06 expo will be one of the bests in Mac history... think about it:

-At least one Mac is getting an Intel processor
-It's very likely that we will see a super cool media center
-It's likely that we will see a preview of Leopard, or at least a few random tips about it
-iLife '06
-Maybe "Numbers" will be added to iWork

I can't wait, wake me up next year :cool:

What, nothing concerning the iPod? :p ;)

And don't forget new displays are imminent as well. The new 20" iMac has a better display in it than the existing Apple 20" display, so we know those are imminent as well. :cool:

[thedude110]

I'll say what I've been saying for the past few months ...

A Cinemac makes so much sense!

[~Shard~]

I'll say what I've been saying for the past few months ...

A Cinemac makes so much sense!

Video content on iTMS, video capable iPods, more media-centric iMacs, FrontRow - we're only at the tip of the iceberg, and it's going to be fun to see what Steve Jobs labels 2006 "The year of..." :cool:

[richdun]

As someone who just bought a 30" HDTV and tried to get it to play nice with a PC that has a ATi HDTV Wonder, only to simply plug in my Powerbook G4 (1.5) and have 1080i pop up immediately, I welcome this. A Mac mini with NTSC, HDTV, and DVR out of the box, plus maybe native HDMI support (since ATi and Nvidia are supposed to do HDMI in 2006 as well as hardware h.264 on the X1Ks and others, something that would make streaming much easier)...yeah, I'd buy one as soon as they came out.

[~Shard~]

As someone who just bought a 30" HDTV and tried to get it to play nice with a PC that has a ATi HDTV Wonder, only to simply plug in my Powerbook G4 (1.5) and have 1080i pop up immediately, I welcome this. A Mac mini with NTSC, HDTV, and DVR out of the box, plus maybe native HDMI support (since ATi and Nvidia are supposed to do HDMI in 2006 as well as hardware h.264 on the X1Ks and others, something that would make streaming much easier)...yeah, I'd buy one as soon as they came out.

I agree, but don't get too hung up on the whole HMDI thing - HDMI is nothing more than DVI and audio wrapped in the same cable for 3 times the price (over-simplistically).... ;) It is great for a lot of people, but for some people it definitely wouldn't be as necessary depending on their setup/requirements.

But yes, this would be a very welcome product - one I would definitely consider buying myself. :cool:

[Mechcozmo]

So, just what is this Viiv thing? A chip? A combination of chips? A processor format?

:confused: Right now it is just a single word.

[SiliconAddict]

Woah...I never put the two together before. It’s far from a sure thing but it seems very plausible.

[Daveway]

So, just what is this Viiv thing? A chip? A combination of chips? A processor format?

:confused: Right now it is just a single word.
It was my understanding that VIIV is like Centrino except for multimedia.

A Concern.....
If this VIIV technology will be driving a new revolution in media distrobution...what happens to the million who don't have it? Apple can't expect everyone who wants to watch movies on demand to buy a new mac mini. So maybe this chip(set) will offer faster(?) or better media experiences. I'm confusing myself, so I'll stop.

[applekid]

And all of this starting at a mere $499?

I'm sitting here waiting for the Mac Mini updates. I bought my DVI LCD and IntelliMouse on Black Friday, but I lack a Mac Mini (and an Apple Keyboard ;)). I've been reading into the rumors about Mac Minis with Intel processors and Mac Minis expanding their multimedia support. All of this is great and all and would be a great bonuses for those waiting for an updated Mac Mini like myself, but can you seriously tell me all of this can still be sold at $499?

If we get a multimedia Mac Mini, it better damn well have a decent GPU, CPU, HD capacity, and connections. The Radeon 9200 is utter crap. I want a CoreImage-compatible GPU, preferably one that can handle H.264 as well. I want to see a CPU that will make Tiger x86 scream. The HD better be able to handle all of this multimedia quickly. The Mini needs more ports, and there better be more video ports for the whole multimedia experience. AirPort and Bluetooth should be standard by now. All of this cannot be cheap.

But, I still don't see how a Mac Mini or any other Mac can come with an Intel CPU in January. Tiger is far from being Gold Master. There are few apps from Apple themselves X86-aware (as far as I know, iTunes is the only one). Can anyone seriously tell me there will be huge developments in a month as far as Tiger X86 and Intel-ready apps are concerned?

[hhlee]

And so many wondered why Steve jumped over
to Intel..........

this makes fine sense. intel will only provide the specifications, hardware, etc... its up to apple to bust into the market with their uber cool and user friendly apps. tell me, who in the software industry has been able to rival apple's apps? this will make it even easier for people to choose apple over others and not having to ask customers to sacrifice over the pros and cons if there were different systems.

[Mainyehc]

And don't forget new displays are imminent as well. The new 20" iMac has a better display in it than the existing Apple 20" display, so we know those are imminent as well. :cool:

Really? I didn't know about that! What exactly sets apart the new iMac G5 screens from the old ones (and the 20'' ACDs)? Brightness, viewing angle, colours? AFAIK, the resolution of the 20''er is still 1680x1050...

Anyway, I'm still very happy with my Rev. A 20'' iMac G5... Apart from the buzzing fan issue... (those guys from tech support should really give me a call already, I've been waiting for a replacement fan for more than a month now... And besides, my iMac is under the extended warranty program... It has been chugging along for a year now, so I'm hoping those capacitors won't fry my logic board anytime soon, but you never know... :eek: ) /rant

[50thVert]

Wish List:
Hotswappable AV cables, a la Playstation. Ability to switch from HDMI to DVI to Component, to Composite, to S-Video with the purchase of a different cable set.
Coaxial and Optical audio out
Utilize On-screen TV Guide
no service fee
250/500GB hard drive
iPod slot in front (ability to quickly attach iPod and download any content)
Native HDTV, h.264, dolby 7.1, DTS support
Native HD-DVD support, once standard is decided upon
CABLECARD equipped
optional Bluetooth/IR/RF color-screen fully programmable remote, and a slick application to program it with.
Frontrow-like interface with more options
Ability to play Video_TS files from harddrive
Ability to backup/play any media content to/from FW400/800/networked Harddrive/DVD-R
Built in 802.11g for updating on-screen guide and simple web browsing/Instant Messaging
Next-gen DVD burner (bluray, HD-DVD), once fully supported
Ability to attach DV camcorder via front-mounted FW400 and import home movies

That is my idea of the perfect Media center/DVR, and even more perfect that Apple would build it. :) Ive been waiting for something HD-Capable to replace my Series 2 Tivo for ages, and i can only pray that it comes from Apple.

Of course, the thing mentioned above is a tad extravagant for the normal Tivo buyer, so hopefully they would implement two versions: an iHome, and a powerHome, or something to that extent.

[Natron]

Perhaps a Mac DVR (iHome?) will be the first Apple product to go Intel?

Some kind of "test", perhaps?

[Mainyehc]

AirPort and Bluetooth should be standard by now. All of this cannot be cheap.


Only the low-end $499 Mac mini has those as a BTO/upgrade option... Even the low-end iBook has those standard, so expect the Mini to follow suit.

But, I still don't see how a Mac Mini or any other Mac can come with an Intel CPU in January. Tiger is far from being Gold Master. There are few apps from Apple themselves X86-aware (as far as I know, iTunes is the only one). Can anyone seriously tell me there will be huge developments in a month as far as Tiger X86 and Intel-ready apps are concerned?

I think it's actually the opposite... AFAIK, iTunes is a Carbon-based app, which means it's not as straightforward to port as the other i-Apps. I'm not sure about this, but last time I read, most of the apps included with Tiger were already ported to x86, iTunes being one of the last to make the transition.

And as for the dead-line, if what Steve said on WWDC is any indication, porting apps to the x86 is a fairly quick process... Besides, Apple was the very first company to know about the transition (duh :rolleyes: ). Since Apple developers must sign an NDA anyway, it wouldn't be surprising if many of them knew about the PPC-to-Intel transition in advance...

That being said, 10.4.4 should be ready by the end of the year... Hopefully, if the development of PPC and x86 versions of OS X is in sync by then, I'm guessing since 10.4.3 doesn't have that many bugs to iron out, the x86 Tiger GM will be a killer OS! I'd be much more concerned with the Rev. A Intel-based hardware, not with the OS... :rolleyes: :D

[mlrproducts]

Really? I didn't know about that! What exactly sets apart the new iMac G5 screens from the old ones (and the 20'' ACDs)? Brightness, viewing angle, colours? AFAIK, the resolution of the 20''er is still 1680x1050...

Anyway, I'm still very happy with my Rev. A 20'' iMac G5... Apart from the buzzing fan issue... (those guys from tech support should really give me a call already, I've been waiting for a replacement fan for more than a month now... And besides, my iMac is under the extended warranty program... It has been chugging along for a year now, so I'm hoping those capacitors won't fry my logic board anytime soon, but you never know... :eek: ) /rant

I second the wish to know the difference...

[plinkoman]

hrmmm, sounds nice....

maybe...

they could have picked a better name??

perhaps...

i mean, seriously, Viiv?

...

[ibook30]

Mac Media Center domination ...my hope. My next purchasing decision has been affected by the rumors of "all media" integration (movies, TV, music, pics, etc... everything but a sock puppet show on my computer, with a remote).

Make it happen Apple!

[boxandrew]

The picture on the TV on this intel page (http://www.intel.com/personal/desktop/viiv/) seems to be a choice of movie trailers. I think it looks pretty familiar. And what's this about using a simple remote control. Sounds like the control for front row...? :cool:

[budugu]

I agree, but don't get too hung up on the whole HMDI thing - HDMI is nothing more than DVI and audio wrapped in the same cable for 3 times the price (over-simplistically).... ;) It is great for a lot of people, but for some people it definitely wouldn't be as necessary depending on their setup/requirements.

But yes, this would be a very welcome product - one I would definitely consider buying myself. :cool:

single wire, Expensive, 3x price, Nothing better than the current tech! yeah that is classic, neo classic or what ever APPLE!

[budugu]

I second the wish to know the difference...

probably the contrast ratio, luminance and response time...

[aafuss1]

Really? I didn't know about that! What exactly sets apart the new iMac G5 screens from the old ones (and the 20'' ACDs)? Brightness, viewing angle, colours? AFAIK, the resolution of the 20''er is still 1680x1050...

Anyway, I'm still very happy with my Rev. A 20'' iMac G5... Apart from the buzzing fan issue... (those guys from tech support should really give me a call already, I've been waiting for a replacement fan for more than a month now... And besides, my iMac is under the extended warranty program... It has been chugging along for a year now, so I'm hoping those capacitors won't fry my logic board anytime soon, but you never know... :eek: ) /rant
I'd also love to see a upgraded Cinema Display, with a similar screen to the 20" iMac's and maybe a lower pixel response time (say 12 or 4ms)

[Mechcozmo]

It was my understanding that VIIV is like Centrino except for multimedia.

A Concern.....
If this VIIV technology will be driving a new revolution in media distrobution...what happens to the million who don't have it? Apple can't expect everyone who wants to watch movies on demand to buy a new mac mini. So maybe this chip(set) will offer faster(?) or better media experiences. I'm confusing myself, so I'll stop.

"Use the Intel certified stuff so we get paid a lot and it will work great!"

Centrino concept is nice... but I'm not certain I like the Intel Integrated graphics being required, etc. I hope that if Viiv is a Centrino-like thing, they do it right.


optional Bluetooth/IR/RF color-screen fully programmable remote, and a slick application to program it with.

One hell of a remote... not too Apple-like. But everything else would be cool. Take up a lot of space, however. Lots of connections. Not Apple-like. Hmmm.

[makman]

Apple is kicking serious ass building a multimedia distribution ecosystem. Why would they go and hand the keys over to Intel to commoditize everything they've done?

From the release -

"This is about Intel Viiv technology-based PCs not only connecting to the TV, but also delivering the latest movies at home, creating ‘music DJs,’ playing games and showcasing home photos and videos – it’s a ‘one-stop-shop’ for entertainment.”

Doesn't Apple want to be in the drivers seat as far as to the rulebook the content providers play by? Intel's and Apple's interest don't seem to be aligned here.

[EricNau]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I have to admit, I have no idea what Apple has up their sleeve, and I don't expect to know until they release it. Anything at this moment would be a complete stab in the dark.

Every time I think I have it figured out, another rumor comes out that ruins what I had thought before.

[JoeG4]

For what it's worth, I don't care what the rumors say now. Whatever it is, I'll just wait and see what it all means at MWSF.

What's the point of trying to draw a picture with a bunch of broken crayons?

[yoda13]

Yeah, I am fairly confused myself at this point. I will be waiting to see what is unveiled with great eagerness, but I am more clueless after having read this thread than I was when I first posted at the beginning. Oh well.:eek: :D

[mac n cheese]

Apple is kicking serious ass building a multimedia distribution ecosystem. Why would they go and hand the keys over to Intel to commoditize everything they've done?

From the release -

"This is about Intel Viiv technology-based PCs not only connecting to the TV, but also delivering the latest movies at home, creating ‘music DJs,’ playing games and showcasing home photos and videos – it’s a ‘one-stop-shop’ for entertainment.”

Doesn't Apple want to be in the drivers seat as far as to the rulebook the content providers play by? Intel's and Apple's interest don't seem to be aligned here.

You're overlooking the fact that whomever controls the formats and the security/encryption is in the driver seat, Intel is just providing a playing field. Intel isn't providing content.

Your assumption is the equivalent of assuming that Motorola controls TV just because they make cable boxes.

Apple will be in the driver's seat. Their content will get hacked, of course, but the mainstream will far out weigh. iTunes hasn't gone belly up.

[nagromme]

All very confusing! Anything seems possible. Most of our hopes and dreams will probably turn out to be just that--hopes and dreams.

My main one: a good Mac-based high-def PVR. (Preferably in a PowerBook, or something that can attach cheaply to one.)

Anyway, I don't see the Mac Mini becoming a totally different product. Informally, people are using it for home entertainment, but it's marketed as the LOW-END LOW-COST MAC. That's all.

I expect the Mac Mini will continue to fill that role, so I don't see it gaining much more than a FrontRow remote--if even that.

However, some NEW product, with a new name, sharing some elements in common with the Mac Mini, is possible. Sounds too soon for that to me--but if Apple has Done Something Right again (a la iPod) then who knows?

PS: Trivia... I think Viiv is pronounced to rhyme with "Ive." (But I keep wanting to rhyme it with "Steve.")


But, I still don't see how a Mac Mini or any other Mac can come with an Intel CPU in January. Tiger is far from being Gold Master. There are few apps from Apple themselves X86-aware (as far as I know, iTunes is the only one). Can anyone seriously tell me there will be huge developments in a month as far as Tiger X86 and Intel-ready apps are concerned?

It's a month until MWSF. It's about two months until early February when such machines might ship. It's about THREE months until late Feb./early March, which is ALSO a likely ship date. Late March? Possible too.

Combine that 2-3 months with the fact that we might not KNOW about all the progress Apple has been making, and I do think a MWSF announcement is possible (probably not immediately shipping).

As for Intel-ready apps, there were huge developments on that front 6 months ago :D Apple couldn't have released Intel Macs a year ago before there were ANY apps. And they can't wait until ALL apps are ready. A compromise must be made. Shipping SOME models now could work very well. iLife is there. Office runs. Photoshop runs (not at top speed). LOTS of third party apps are ready, including some games, judging by developer reports of smooth progress in porting certain apps. And yes, lots of apps aren't ready--but Rosetta might just do what it's meant to: fill in that gap for a few months.

[Peace]

I fail to see where this is an Apple/Intel only thing.From the article I read on Intels site it says that viiv will run on ANY PeeCee that meets the requirements.
Meaning Dell could just as easy do the same thing.As a matter of fact Intel kinda implies THEY are gonna build a PC that utilizes it.

Me thinks Apple may have got itself into a bad barrel..

This part kinda implies they are talking Apple :

"With an Intel Viiv technology-based PC and supporting devices, you can enjoy a growing universe of digital media content∇. Plus, the power of Intel dual-core processors combined with networked Digital Media Adapters means that multiple family members can use the same PC to enjoy content in different rooms at the same time. For example, one family member can download a movie on the Intel Viiv technology-based PC in the family room, while another enjoys music being streamed from the same PC to the living room stereo"


Sure sounds like my Airport LAN set-up in my house.

[Voidness]

I'm not too excited about this. All this "media center" stuff doesn't catch my attention at all. I'm only into the "real" computers Apple has to offer for the x86 transition.

But it's still nice to see what Apple has to offer anyways! :D :p

[makman]

You're overlooking the fact that whomever controls the formats and the security/encryption is in the driver seat, Intel is just providing a playing field. Intel isn't providing content.

Your assumption is the equivalent of assuming that Motorola controls TV just because they make cable boxes.

Apple will be in the driver's seat. Their content will get hacked, of course, but the mainstream will far out weigh. iTunes hasn't gone belly up.

From the quote I provided, sounds like Intel wants to add more value than simply providing a standard hardware platform. Why does their press release talk about home movie delivery, showcasing photos, etc? If Intel isn't going to the protocol standard level, what value is Viiv providing?

And what Intel is doing is definitely not targeted to the Mac. The value they bring with Viiv will also be there for Microsoft, etc. I still don't see how Viiv will help Apple's ecosystem development.

[Platform]

Dual Core Intel mini with decent HDD and GPU.....:eek: :eek: :D :D

Wooo...

[GregA]

And all of this starting at a mere $499? If we get a multimedia Mac Mini, it better damn well have a decent GPU, CPU, HD capacity, and connections.
I think the point of ViiV is that there are several integrated chipsets - you lose the uniqueness of the hardware, as well as any exceptional abilities, but gain on a lower cost.
the x86 Tiger GM will be a killer OS! I'd be much more concerned with the Rev. A Intel-based hardware, not with the OS... :rolleyes: :DActually, if Apple sticks closely to Intel's standard (at least to start with), the hardware should be quite mature.
Apple is kicking serious ass building a multimedia distribution ecosystem. Why would they go and hand the keys over to Intel to commoditize everything they've done?
It's interesting that the ViiV allows you to watch & record live TV... and they also want to allow you to download movies. I assume we'll have similar hardware to some HPs out there, same capabilities of watching FTA, downloading movies, music, etc - but with OSX as the defining difference. I mean - XP Media Centre vs OSX FrontRow.

The interesting question would come when Apple has to decide if it'll sell OSX FrontRow for HPs media centre with identical chipsets.... but lets not get distracted :)

[chubad]

Viiv is for secure delivery of content.
The technology will allow content to be locked down, limiting what consumers can do with movies or music they buy in digital format, even if it's within their "fair use" rights.

You guys are excited about this? Doesn't sound too good to me.:mad:

[GregA]

Viiv is for secure delivery of content.
The technology will allow content to be locked down, limiting what consumers can do with movies or music they buy in digital format, even if it's within their "fair use" rights.

You guys are excited about this? Doesn't sound too good to me.:mad:Apple already tells us what we can and can't do with our downloads - this is just an extension of that. I expect Apple to make their stuff more secure and Intel does something related to that. I'm not sure what the difference is.

Of course, if Intel technology becomes the standard for media decoding, that would be bad for the industry. We need competition!

ps. Another promise of the ViiV technology is on the fly re-encoding of content - to change the format of something downloaded into something different (eg: download widescreen digital TV, and have it convert it to 4:3 lower quality when syncing to your iPod? or to an easily streamed version?)

[Jesus]

people seem to have forgotten about the new iMac and in particular, FrontRow, and the simplicity and ease of the interface, and the great remote, all you have to add is a new icon, TV, and thats it, perfect, whats for tea?

[GregA]

people seem to have forgotten about the new iMac and in particular, FrontRow, and the simplicity and ease of the interface, and the great remote, all you have to add is a new icon, TV, and thats it, perfect, whats for tea?I'm confused. What makes you say we've forgotten?

[generik]

single wire, Expensive, 3x price, Nothing better than the current tech! yeah that is classic, neo classic or what ever APPLE!

Supports DRM too!

[Jesus]

I'm confused. What makes you say we've forgotten?

People have not been metioning it at all, an some about the use of a simple remote for a computer, when we have one already. We already have so much of this plaform already. all we need now is x86 to complete it.

[Morky]

There is no Tivo unit that supports HD Cable yet....

Time-Warner provided me with a very Tivo-like HD-DVR.

[jmck]

vi =6
iv = 9

Viiv = 69 -- meeting of television and computer for mutual satisfaction...

[petej]

What is amazing about this is that Apple is not mentioned anywhere in the press release or the website. This either means that Apple completely disagrees with the viiv concept. Or they are just keeping quiet as usual. What I find interesting about the website is talking about plug-in TV tuner cards. This clearly indicates that the intention is for the possibliity of one device that will be customised by broadcasters to their market / services. I also find that this could perhaps be aligned with the anandtech review of the Yonah chip which was tested on a motherboard that they were not permitted to identify. This did however support onboard graphics and a single slot x16 PCIe. Why a single slot I wondered when reading the article, what sort of PC would that be. Now I think I know. I did wonder whether the 'apples to apples' comment later on in the article may have been a bit of a subtle pointer.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2627

If nothing else, this is good fun wondering what is going to happen next and who or what to believe. My only worry about viiv is that it may give too much control to the content providers and we may gain more seamless on-line content / recorder functions but loose some ability to do things with the content such as skip adverts and archive to a medium of choice.

[SmegFirk]

It's a marketing badge. As with a Centrino badged pc, if manufacturers put x, y and z components in their computers, intel will let them put the viiv badge on it.
Nothing more.

[~Shard~]

Really? I didn't know about that! What exactly sets apart the new iMac G5 screens from the old ones (and the 20'' ACDs)? Brightness, viewing angle, colours? AFAIK, the resolution of the 20''er is still 1680x1050...

I second the wish to know the difference...

The iMac's 20 inch display is now brighter, and it has twice the contrast ratio of the 20-inch cinema display. Now you know. :cool:

[mjstew33]

You know what, we are just going to have to wait. Apple surprised us with Intel and a multi-button mouse. Who knows? But, I guess, this might be FrontRow 2? Not sure. Or maybe FrontRow 2 and this Intel Media thing somehow combined together?

Who knows.

[rosalindavenue]

I started this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=129103) last May, before the intel switch; saying "Gee, looks like Intel is going to incorporate DRM-- good thing Apple's not an intel customer." Oops. I'm a pragmatist, and I suspect that Mr. Jobs knew he couldn't get the content providers on board without this, but this has to be a big reason for the intel switch.

[Bonte]

but don't get too hung up on the whole HMDI thing - HDMI is nothing more than DVI and audio wrapped in the same cable for 3 times the price (over-simplistically).... ;) It is great for a lot of people, but for some people it definitely wouldn't be as necessary depending on their setup/requirements.

And needed to play future encrypted HD content, other connections or a bridge cable get lower quality. For all i know HDMI is a key component in the HD DRM.

[Super Dave]

Video content on iTMS, video capable iPods, more media-centric iMacs, FrontRow - we're only at the tip of the iceberg, and it's going to be fun to see what Steve Jobs labels 2006 "The year of..." :cool:

I think it will be "The Year of Apple Owning Everyone Else."

David:cool:

[Super Dave]

vi =6
iv = 9

Viiv = 69 -- meeting of television and computer for mutual satisfaction...

IV is actually 4, but it was funny until I realized.

David:cool:

[Super Dave]

The iMac's 20 inch display is now brighter, and it has twice the contrast ratio of the 20-inch cinema display. Now you know. :cool:

Yep. 1:400 for the Cinema Display and 1:800 for the iMac to be precise.

David:cool:

[Yebot]

VIIV (pronounced 'five')

I'm ok with the embedded DRM in viiv-chips as long as it places no restrictions on non-DRM content. (i.e. CD's & DVD's ripped from your personal collection.)

[dogcowabunga]

IV is actually 4, but it was funny until I realized.

David:cool:

VI IV = 6 4, as in "Will you still need me, will you still feed me?" once Apple enters the market with its own multimedia device.

[ifjake]

VI IV = 6 4, as in "Will you still need me, will you still feed me?" once Apple enters the market with its own multimedia device.

ha! i like it.

[lind0834]

[QUOTE=Daveway]Apple can't expect everyone who wants to watch movies on demand to buy a new mac mini.[QUOTE]

I think they can. It might take a while to build up a good user base, and make it truely profitable, but they can expect what ever they want. 2 quick examples:
- 1. If people want to listen to iTunes protected music portably they will be expected to (but not forced) buy an iPod.
- 2. If people want to watch HDTV they will be expected to (but not forced) to buy an expensive TV.

If Apple really wants to do this, just price it right and people will buy into it. Maybe price it like a game console where they take a hit on hardware costs, but gain on selling movies.

BUT..
I think the whole Mac Mini Intel thing isn't going to happen that quickly. I predict that come January we will have a Mac Mini with a G4 and enhanced Front Row capabilities.. no DVR that quick.

[ioinc]

And so many wondered why Steve jumped over
to Intel..........


To include about 90% of the people that post on macrumors when this was only a rumor back in June.

[MarcelV]

I am surprised everyone thinks this is so Apple like... I just don't see it. yes, Apple will come with a media experience, but will it be Viiv? Why? All other Wintel brands will come up with a Viiv solution, so what will make consumers to choose Apple over the others? That's the real question. What would prevent consumers to use content not purchased thru a video iTunes equivalent. I am sure they want to keep that controlled, just like they do with iTunes. And wasn't the embedded DRM in Viiv based on MS Windows Media standard? That goes against Apple's Open Standard philosophy.

Apple will break into this market. No doubt about that. Just not sure it will be Viiv.

[AidenShaw]

That goes against Apple's Open Standard philosophy.
Yes, like Apple's "open" DRM with the Orwellian name of "Fairplay"? :eek:

[Fender2112]

Funny how nowadays any Intel rumor becomes a Macrumor. :)
That's funny. Ironic, but funny. :p

[technocoy]

I want it, really really bad.

I know apple can do it.

I know it would be awesome.

that being said, if this thing comes out from apple...

IT BETTER DAMN WELL PLUG INTO MY 30" CINEMA DISPLAY!!!!

you hear that apple. it needs to function with the 2500.00 display i just purchased from you.

and you need to make my powerbook work with more than 1 gig of RAM (off topic, but it needed to be said :) )

[MarcelV]

Yes, like Apple's "open" DRM with the Orwellian name of "Fairplay"? :eek:

No DRM is an open Standard. But AAC is, h.264 is. Apple's DRM is as prorietary as Windows Media. But it's just a wrapper around an Open Standard. But what little I have read about the Viiv platform, I believed it had Windows Media decoding included. No software needed.

[RHMMMM]

and you need to make my powerbook work with more than 1 gig of RAM (off topic, but it needed to be said )

They work fine with more than 1GB and have for almost a month now. When was the last time you ran software update? Get the latest Airport update and you should be fine.

[otter-boy]

It's a marketing badge. As with a Centrino badged pc, if manufacturers put x, y and z components in their computers, intel will let them put the viiv badge on it.
Nothing more.

It most definitely is a marketing badge . . . one that is meant to coincide with features included in Windows Vista (Intel has stated this several times, just search for VIIV at news.com(.com)).

It seems that the branding is really there for computers running MS Windows, but that the technology will also be a big boon for Mac computers (which won't need the extra branding anyway). There are so many choices of Windows PCs, and there needs to be a way to differentiate the ones capable of good multimedia from the vast majority of ones that are total crap when it comes to audio/video. I'll be surprised if Apple uses the VIIV branding, and even then it'd probably just be buried in the documentation or packaging in an unassuming way.

I read either today or yesterday that the first VIIV computer will be by AOPEN, the company that made the poorly reviewed Mac Mini rip-off. Again, just rumors, but that is what I read. I'll try to get a link to that article when I get the time.

got it: http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=28131

[firestarter]

Why does Intel want people to standardise on a certain 'VIIV compliant' hardware mix and Intel Chipsets?

Because they'll control the hardware from their BIOS chips - this stuff will NOT involve the computers operating system.

This is NOT a technology that enhances OSX - it's precisely the opposite - a power play by Intel against Microsoft (or any other OS manufacturer).

Why do I think it doesn't use the OS?

1/ Why stipulate very definite hardware requirements if you're not writing specific drivers for this?

2/ A good number of current PC laptops and 'media computers' already allow you to play DVDs, CDs etc. without fully powering up the computer. This is a natural progression of what's in the PC world right now.

So wake up people - this isn't something that's good for Apple or good for us. That's why Apple's name isn't mentioned in the release!!

[mhouse]

Yes, like Apple's "open" DRM with the Orwellian name of "Fairplay"? :eek:

Man, what's wrong with the restrictions using Fairplay? Up to 10 CDs of the same track list. Unlimited CDs as long as you mix the tracks. Five computers. Unlimited iPods.

Some of you just aren't going to be happy until Apple (or someone) says:

"Here just have all this content for free, copy it all ya want, hand it out to whomever you want and we'll just go out of business quietly and try not to bother you."

[technocoy]

They work fine with more than 1GB and have for almost a month now. When was the last time you ran software update? Get the latest Airport update and you should be fine.


nope, done that, installed the new airport update as well. also reset PRAM, etc... nothing.. and there are still alot of people with the issue.

sorry. last OT post.

[Machead III]

Take it one step further, Apple should collaborate with Nintendo for the upcoming Revolution in the same fashion as Windows Media Center interacts with XBox 360...but one that actually works. hehe

But seriously, Nintendo is the only console player without a PC companion and Apple isn't known for being a gaming platform. I say mutually advantageous!

Hah! That would make too much sense.

[JDOG_]

One of my good friends works for Intel at a position which grants him pretty much full access to details on future product lines. He told me there's quite a bit of R&D going into making ViiV chips for non-Intel-designed products. Basically it's going to be their new media chip like the Pentium has been the workhorse chip of the past.

Should be interesting to see how it pans out.

[dernhelm]

Yeah, exactly. There is no way that Steve was not privy to this information when he was in talks with Intel about their roadmaps, future plans, etc. before he made his decision to switch. This is yet another reason, as you say, why the switch to Intel makes sense. The question that remains is how exactly is Apple going to take advantage/be involved with this? Intel Mac mini?

A LOT of people were privy to this information, Viiv has been a well rumored project for quite some time. Someone asked if Intel is going there own way with this, the answer is YES! This is an Intel initiative pure and simple. They want Viiv technology to be prevalent so that content creators, consumers, and middle-men all become dependent on the Viiv backbone. To do this, they create a hardware layer that is easy to interface with, and a part of every media-centric PC. If it works. and people start coding to Viiv in order to build their applications, they could corner a lot of the hardware market.

So the question becomes, should Apple make use of this or not? Or an even better question is whether or not Apple has been waiting for this to hit release status before releasing their next round of media-centric PCs. This one is harder to say, but I'm willing to bet that Viiv only played a small part in the "switch to Intel" strategy for Apple. Most of Apple's software to work with digital content is not reliant on a particular company's hardware backbone, and I'm sure Steve would rather keep it that way.

Still in all, it would seem ridiculous to reinvent the wheel, so I'm sure that Apple will utilize Viiv technology if the next mini is indeed a media-center type of product. But you can be sure that what Microsoft will choose to do with the technoloy is far higher on Intel's radar than what Apple will choose to do with it.

[dernhelm]

vi =6
iv = 9

Viiv = 69 -- meeting of television and computer for mutual satisfaction...

Wow, if you're going to post something this stupid, at least get your roman numeral right...

[iHavenolife]

Could the new iMac have been a transition mac?

[aswitcher]

One of my good friends works for Intel at a position which grants him pretty much full access to details on future product lines. He told me there's quite a bit of R&D going into making ViiV chips for non-Intel-designed products. Basically it's going to be their new media chip like the Pentium has been the workhorse chip of the past.

Should be interesting to see how it pans out.


Surely Apple can expect a PC to get this chip first? Can they really sow up the whole series for their release if they want?

[~Shard~]

That's funny. Ironic, but funny. :p

Yeah, I know - irony can be so ironic sometimes... :cool:

[~Shard~]

Still in all, it would seem ridiculous to reinvent the wheel, so I'm sure that Apple will utilize Viiv technology if the next mini is indeed a media-center type of product. But you can be sure that what Microsoft will choose to do with the technoloy is far higher on Intel's radar than what Apple will choose to do with it.

Agreed. And now that Apple is partnered with Intel, it only makes sense - as you say, why reinvent the wheel? As for MS, yes, unfortunately I agree with you on that as well... :o

[GregA]

As for MS, yes, unfortunately I agree with you on that as well... :oI'm not so sure. MS has the XBox on IBM chips... I'm sure MS would like to control this market. Intel doesn't want that, they want control themselves. Same goes for Sony saying their PS3 is a media machine... it also isn't under Intel's control.

[JDOG_]

Surely Apple can expect a PC to get this chip first? Can they really sow up the whole series for their release if they want?

From what he's told me they've got a bevy of in-house ViiV design protoypes with in-house (read: Non-Windows) media center programs floating around mingling with other PCs (maybe macs) and storage options. There's tiny ViiV boxes, larger DVD-size ones and even some towers running varying levels of chipsets. Certain applications or jobs will require a certain level of ViiV to run (read: not Mhz. reliant), so for example you'll need a ViiV Platinum to play Half Life on & a ViiV Bronze to watch TV and do everyday PC tasks. Can't be too much more specific because I know little else.

In regards to your question, I assume the deal Apple inked out with Intel would give them access and advanced purchasing options of future chips, ViiV included. That I can't comment on since my buddy will only tell me so much :p

[AidenShaw]

I'm not so sure. MS has the XBox on IBM chips...
Actually, Microsoft owns the designs for the triple-core CPU in the Xbox. Various reports have said that MS is contracting to foundries at both TSMC and IBM to actually create the chips.

Teardowns find 'Microsoft Inside' Xbox 360 (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=174401545)

[AidenShaw]

Surely Apple can expect a PC to get this chip first? Can they really sow up the whole series for their release if they want?
Intel plays pretty fairly with their first tier vendors - they all get equal access to prototypes and samples, and typically everybody has product available to sell on Intel's release day.

I'd expect that if Intel plays favorites with a niche vendor in Cupertino, then AMD will see a huge increase in orders. In other words, Apple will be just another Intel shop.

[Super Dave]

Could the new iMac have been a transition mac?

I agree. But I think it was more than a transition, it was a beta test. I think it was put in the wild MAINLY to test Apple's new video streaming technology in real world applications.

See my posts here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1951985#post1951985) and here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=1952266#post1952266).

David:cool:

[Shintocam]

single wire, Expensive, 3x price, Nothing better than the current tech! yeah that is classic, neo classic or what ever APPLE!

Just to add one additional perspective to the HDMI is simply DVI conversation. While it is true that in terms of functionality HDMI is bascially DVI with audio wrapped into one - and many may say so what - one of the BIG differences is that the adapter is MUCH smaller. This is important for small devices for example but even more so for all those AV receivers. Imagine an AV receiver with 3 or 4 DVI inputs and 1 or 2 DVI outputs. That's taking up a lot of space back there. HDMI ports can actually be packed as close or even closer than classing RCA style jacks.

It's only 3X the cost because it is new - give it some time....

[williedigital]

i think the development of the ati mobility x1600 (which presumably has the avivo technology to hardware encode and decode h264) is a major key to this whole apple/intel pvr/mini thing. I mean, isn't this EXACTLY what's necessary to this to kill the tivo?

[ITGuy]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post on MacRumors, so I thought I should contribute to the discussion by reminding everyone that Intel formed a joint venture with actor Morgan Freeman's production company to distribute film content online. The JV is called ClickStar. See http://news.com.com/Intel%2C+studio+form+movie+download+venture/2100-1025_3-5776588.html?tag=nefd.top for more details.

ClickStar and Apple iTMS partnership in January? What do you think?

Cheers,

ITG:D

[beatle888]

ITG:D

ITGuy? i like it...the name that is.
:p

Edit: oh yeah, welcome to macrumors

[~Shard~]

I'm not so sure. MS has the XBox on IBM chips...

Actually, as AidenShaw indicated, Microsoft owns the designs for the XBox's processor, so not so fast.... ;)

[GregA]

you can be sure that what Microsoft will choose to do with the technoloy is far higher on Intel's radar than what Apple will choose to do with it.

I replied:
I'm not so sure. MS has the XBox on IBM chips... I'm sure MS would like to control this market. Intel doesn't want that, they want control themselves.

Actually, as AidenShaw indicated, Microsoft owns the designs for the XBox's processor, so not so fast.... ;)
yeah... but you're ignoring the point of my post by jumping on the detail. IBM or MS powerPC makes no difference - it's just not Intel.

Intel doesn't want Microsoft to get too much control, so they may invest just as much effort in Apple as in Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is available on Intel (including ViiV), and non-Intel architecture (including XBox360, and AMD).... Apple just committed to Intel.

[Renegate]

Guys the US store has just added a number of new TV-Shows : NBC , ABC with vintage shows but also the Tonight show etc. At last things are moving!

[Bonte]

Bad news on Digitimes :(
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20051206A7033.html

Maybe a media center but not an mini or laptop?

[aswitcher]

Bad news on Digitimes :(
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20051206A7033.html

Maybe a media center but not an mini or laptop?

Ouch. Well Steve is keynoting so we gotta see some good stuff in Jan 06.

[BenRoethig]

Actually, Microsoft owns the designs for the triple-core CPU in the Xbox. Various reports have said that MS is contracting to foundries at both TSMC and IBM to actually create the chips.

Teardowns find 'Microsoft Inside' Xbox 360 (http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=174401545)

They offered the same deal to Intel who told them to get lost. They had IBM design the chip since they were the only company who would accept the terms.

[Sunrunner]

They offered the same deal to Intel who told them to get lost. They had IBM design the chip since they were the only company who would accept the terms.

Shouldnt be any suprise there. Intel knows better than to get locked into the contractually-obligated production of chips they dont own and can't design flaws out of for a strongarm organization like MS. It also likely runs as direct competition for them with the Viiv platform set.

VIIV (pronounced 'five')

I'm ok with the embedded DRM in viiv-chips as long as it places no restrictions on non-DRM content. (i.e. CD's & DVD's ripped from your personal collection.)


Very true. Ive never had any problems with the Faiplay schema, and really dont get how anyone could. It is a very fair setup overall...

[AidenShaw]

Shouldnt be any suprise there. Intel knows better than to get locked into the contractually-obligated production of chips they dont own and can't design flaws out of for a strongarm organization like MS. It also likely runs as direct competition for them with the Viiv platform set.
And Microsoft has learned that it's better not to be in a situation where a supplier has you over a barrel when it comes time to renew a contract.

By owning the chip design, MS can shop around for the best deal from a foundry. It can also be assured of getting discounts as processes mature and yields improve. Even if IBM is making the triple-core chip today, the next round might come from a foundry willing to undercut IBM's price.

With Intel (or IBM or ATI or nVidia) owning the design, those improvements show up in the vendor's margin, not Microsoft's.

MS is counting on declining parts costs to reduce the cost of the Xbox 360 hardware so that it will eventually be sold at a profitable price on the hardware alone.

[Super Dave]

Bad news on Digitimes :(
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20051206A7033.html

Maybe a media center but not an mini or laptop?

I suspect that this is either:

a) an intentional leak so investors stop expecting intel in January and thus overinflate Apple's stock price.

or

b) an intentional leak so customers don't expect intel in January, so that they keep buying PowerPC models for the next month.

David :cool:

[Donm]

I've been reading this thread for awhile and I can add some facts to it (for a change).

1. Intel concieved and developed eastfork/viiv before apple made any agreements to buy Intel.
2. yes, Jobs knew about viiv as soon as they started to get serious. My own personal theory is that it actually made apple act quicker about the digital home segment. Wasn't there an interview with Jobs when the ipod came out and in it he mentioned that he didn't see the convergence of the PC and TV. Now they are trying hard to get in front of viiv.
3. viiv is more than just a marketing gimmick. there is an ecosystem of software/services, standards and devices. it's more than what centrino was to notebooks. this will not be very obvious during the launch at CES. the original viiv vision has been fragmented in order to meet the launch deadline.
4. unfortunetly MS is tied to viiv for now. however, viiv is a platform that could be used by other companies. they could use the instand on, hd audio, wireless and secure drm wireless transmission protocol.
5. susprisingly intel does care about free use. that is the main reason they gave support to hd-dvd versus blu-ray. apparently there's a sticky point around consumer being allowed to burn blu-ray to their harddrive or be allowed to stream it, or transfer it to other devices in the home.

[GregA]

I suspect that this is ... an intentional leak
Highly possible. Over-inflated expectations always lead to a disappointment when the real deal comes through.

For instance, imagine Apple release an intel-iBook, and demonstrate the future Mac-mini/Viiv system? This would be great by expectations 3 months ago, but a disappointment from todays expectations.
intel does care about free use. that is the main reason they gave support to hd-dvd versus blu-ray. apparently there's a sticky point around consumer being allowed to burn blu-ray to their harddrive or be allowed to stream it, or transfer it to other devices in the home.
This explains Intel's interest on transcoding material on the fly.

I assumed Apple wanted to transcode on-the-fly so that you could download a SDTV quality show and sync to your iPod at lower-res. Or record digital-TV and transcode from MPEG2 to h264 so it takes up less hard disk space. Maybe it also allows for streaming DVD through the house.

[Donm]

Highly possible. Over-inflated expectations always lead to a disappointment when the real deal comes through.

For instance, imagine Apple release an intel-iBook, and demonstrate the future Mac-mini/Viiv system? This would be great by expectations 3 months ago, but a disappointment from todays expectations.

This explains Intel's interest on transcoding material on the fly.

I assumed Apple wanted to transcode on-the-fly so that you could download a SDTV quality show and sync to your iPod at lower-res. Or record digital-TV and transcode from MPEG2 to h264 so it takes up less hard disk space. Maybe it also allows for streaming DVD through the house.

In intel's case streaming dvd's across the house is part of viiv, however not in the initial release.

[ScubaDuc]

What I find interesting about the website is talking about plug-in TV tuner cards. This clearly indicates that the intention is for the possibliity of one device that will be customised by broadcasters to their market / services.



Consider different TV standards, NTSC for US, PAL and Secam for Europe; PAL B for Brazil, etc. But why a tuner card to begin with? DVD-R, have tuner cards..USe one of those with a firewire out. What Intel has not thought about, is that people on MR have commented that they don't like to hear fan noise when watching a movie.

Therefore, if it works while the PC is off, great! I like that idea, otherwise, we need wi-fi TVs, or better yet, TVs with HD and Wi-Fi/bluetooth: or even better, a 30 inch fanless i-Mac :eek:

[mongoos150]

I'm a bit confused as to what Viiv is - it's not a chip, is it? Not a processor like Yonah - what exactly is a "platform"...????

[Aggamemnon]

Just like Centrino is a platform containg three elements: Pentium-M CPU, Intel chipset and an Intel WiFi card, Viiv is a collection of Intel technologies given a funky name.

[heisetax]

Not only that, but if you check both companies, they have similar philosophies: what hardware do we need to run our software? Both are about the experience, not the hardware.


Maybe the expereience was because of the hardware?

Bill the TaxMan

[steve_hill4]

So, is this going to tie into the next Mac mini then? Or if Intel is going their own way with this, where will that leave Apple? Doing it on their own as well, or will there possibly be a link involving OS X somehow? Just random thoughts... :cool:
It would be Mac Mini for sure, if they plan to use it that is.

Sorry if this has already been asked/answered, but does anyone know how this matches up to the Yonah in power, speed cache etc.? We all expected that would be used for the Mac Mini, so it would have to be fairly comparable for slot in there.

[heisetax]

Man, what's wrong with the restrictions using Fairplay? Up to 10 CDs of the same track list. Unlimited CDs as long as you mix the tracks. Five computers. Unlimited iPods.

Some of you just aren't going to be happy until Apple (or someone) says:

"Here just have all this content for free, copy it all ya want, hand it out to whomever you want and we'll just go out of business quietly and try not to bother you."


With a CD you have none of these problems or as you say restrictions. I won't purchase any music from the iTunes Music Store just because of the DRM. I'm not going to give it away & do not expect the music for free. My CDs take up about 60GB on my hard drive. And I can make more than 6 hard drvie copies if I deem it necessary. Remember everyone does not have the same kind of computer system as you have. Many have a computer in everyroom. This could mean a dozen hard drives or more. I don't always want the lower quality recording tha is on my iPod. Sometimes I want to come closer to the CD sound quality.

Bill the TaxMan

[Donm]

What Intel has not thought about, is that people on MR have commented that they don't like to hear fan noise when watching a movie.



You'll be happy to hear that, that issue has been addressed. Viiv systems with a CE form factor will have no fans, or perhaps all will have no fans. Keep in mind that the oem's can take the platform and create mini-tower form factor, traditional towers, or lastly what Intel really wants which is a CE device in the living room. this is where MS and intel differ in strategy. MS is all about MCE in the den or some office and then use a DMA or X-Box 360 to a TV. intel wants viiv in the living to begin with. hence the need to address heating and walla....no fans.

[bigwig]

I think Apple is nuts if they go with ViiV. Why? Because locking themselves into ViiV would forestall any future move to AMD. AMD's dual-core Opterons are pretty sweet, and they can be dropped in with little or no change to software should Intel not deliver on its promises (just look at Itanium if you want to see a continuing example of that).

[generik]

I think Apple is nuts if they go with ViiV. Why? Because locking themselves into ViiV would forestall any future move to AMD. AMD's dual-core Opterons are pretty sweet, and they can be dropped in with little or no change to software should Intel not deliver on its promises (just look at Itanium if you want to see a continuing example of that).

My understanding of ViiV is that it is a platform that includes DRM from the very basics of its design.

As of yet I doubt AMD has any real plans on DRM yet.

[Donm]

I think Apple is nuts if they go with ViiV. Why? Because locking themselves into ViiV would forestall any future move to AMD. AMD's dual-core Opterons are pretty sweet, and they can be dropped in with little or no change to software should Intel not deliver on its promises (just look at Itanium if you want to see a continuing example of that).

AMD's integrated memory controller advantage is going to go away...and then all you have is a CPU manufacturer. Intel is making platforms with benifits to the end user that AMD will not be able to match. It's a classic win a battle but lose the war scenario.

[Aggamemnon]

Exactly. Intel can provide a solution, whereas AMD can only provide the CPU.

Personally I prefer AMD for my Linux boxes but if I were Apple I would go with Intel.

[steve_hill4]

I had a very interesting chat with a guy who used to work part-time for our store, who is currently working for intel for a sandwich year. He can't obviously disclose any secrets, but mentioned viiv to me and I asked if he knew anything about it going into the Mac Mini. His response was surprise I mentioned Apple to do with it, but I persisted and explained the rumoured future of the computer, he still seemed to be insistant Apple would not be using it and it was going to be for something completely different.

Either he was doing a bloody good job of acting through the truth, or he was being honest and Apple really won't be using the chip. Going by the kind of person he is, I would say he was being honest. His immediate reaction was not of consideration and then reaction, but of straightforward surprise.

I guess I could be wrong, but perhaps intel have plans to use these chips in devices away from mainstream Desktop computing. There were rumours after all that intel were thinking of building their own Media Center device. If others aren't getting the chip, perhaps they are reserving it for their own machines.:eek:

[jaw04005]

Centrino concept is nice... but I'm not certain I like the Intel Integrated graphics being required, etc. I hope that if Viiv is a Centrino-like thing, they do it right.

Centrino does not require an Intel Integrated Graphics chipset. It is my understanding that only a specific chipset (which may or may not include integrated graphics), wireless card and a pentium M processor are required. IBM, Fujitsu and Dell all offer Centrino notebooks with ATI graphics cards.

VIIV also does not require a Intel Integrated Graphics chipset. If you think about it, how is VIIV supposed to be a multimedia center without dedicated graphics?

[Peace]

Has anyone realised the coralation between Intels Viiv and Apple's Vingle yet?

And..

Apple has trademarked "Numbers","Jam Box","RT Extreme" and many others relating to a multi-media center..

[mdavey]

Has anyone realised the coralation between Intels Viiv and Apple's Vingle yet?

Yea, I did. Also that Vingle sounds like an acronym: VIdeo N-something Graphics Library Extension. Someone else posted that an Intel engineer/friend was very surprised to hear about the rumor of Apple using Viiv, though.

Apple has trademarked "Numbers","Jam Box","RT Extreme" and many others relating to a multi-media center..

Do you have a link? Numbers is rumored to be the iWork spreadsheet application. Jam Box sounds like a Garage-band-like Karaoke / Asteroid thing. RT Extreme - that's a plug-in for Final Cut Pro isn't it?

[Peace]

Yea, I did. Also that Vingle sounds like an acronym: VIdeo N-something Graphics Library Extension. Someone else posted that an Intel engineer/friend was very surprised to hear about the rumor of Apple using Viiv, though.



Do you have a link? Numbers is rumored to be the iWork spreadsheet application. Jam Box sounds like a Garage-band-like Karaoke / Asteroid thing. RT Extreme - that's a plug-in for Final Cut Pro isn't it?

Numbers :
Word Mark NUMBERS
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: computer software
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Design Search Code
Serial Number 78646677
Filing Date June 8, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B;44D
Original Filing Basis 1B;44D
International Registration Number 0858440
Owner (APPLICANT) Apple Computer, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1 Infinite Loop Cupertino CALIFORNIA 95014
Attorney of Record John Donald
Priority Date January 4, 2005
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE



Jam Box :

Word Mark JAM BOX
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: computer hardware; computer software; computer peripherals, namely audio production systems comprised of computer hardware and software for composing, recording, creating, converting, enhancing, processing, amplifying, mixing, manipulating, and playing audio signals
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Design Search Code
Serial Number 78611342
Filing Date April 18, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) Apple Computer, Inc. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 1 Infinite Loop MS 3-TM 1 Infinite Loop Cupertino CALIFORNIA 95014
Attorney of Record John Donald
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE


RT Extreme is plug-in for Final Cut Pro

Lots of cool info at :

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=eotng1.8.71

Not sure if that link will be active as it's a temporary search from the Patent Office.

[Donm]

VIIV also does not require a Intel Integrated Graphics chipset. If you think about it, how is VIIV supposed to be a multimedia center without dedicated graphics?

Actually, it's my understanding that Intel graphics are a requirement for Viiv.

[jaw04005]

Actually, it's my understanding that Intel graphics are a requirement for Viiv.

According to Anandtech, that's not the case.

http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=2510

For a desktop to be called a VIIV, it must meet a number of hardware requirements:

1) It must use either a Pentium D, Pentium Extreme Edition or Pentium M (Yonah) processor. All of which are dual core, but in the future dual core may not necessarily be a requirement.

2) It must use either a 945G, 945P or 955X chipset or Intel's Calistoga chipset for Yonah.

3) It must use either an Intel PRO/1000 PM NIC or a PRO/100 VE/VM NIC. Wireless is not a requirement.

4) Intel HD Audio is a requirement, as well as the appropriate jacks (either 6 RCA connectors or a single SPDIF, no word on whether the latter supports 5.1 channel audio).

5) All VIIV PCs must come with a remote control that works with Windows XP Media Center Edition and can work with the media shell used on the system by default (e.g. MCE's 10 ft UI).

Along with those hardware requirements, the following software requirements are in place:

1) All VIIV PCs must use Intel's driver stack, including HD Audio, RAID, Graphics (if applicable) and LAN drivers. They must also use Intel's Instant on/off drivers (more on this in a moment).

2) The system must run Windows XP Media Center Edition (and obviously meet its requirements).

3) The system must feature Intel's network software, which when used with VIIV certified network products you are able to setup a home network or configure any VIIV certified network device entirely from the remote control.

4) All VIIV PCs must use Intel's Integrated Media Server software. The media server software features a transcoding engine that will automatically transcode audio and video from a number of "popular" formats to a DLNA compliant format for transmission to digital media adapters, portable devices, etc... without worrying about maintaing compatible codecs. The media server software will also find all content on your network and give you access to it from the VIIV PC, even if you are remotely accessing the VIIV PC.

Note that there are no requirements for noise, thermals, form factor or anything of that nature. Intel says that VIIV PCs will ship in a number of form factors, including desktop, all-in-one, as well as slim set-top box form factors.

[Donm]

I'll double check, but I was fairly certain that Intel on board graphics were part of the requirements.

[Yvan256]

But seriously, Nintendo is the only console player without a PC companion and Apple isn't known for being a gaming platform. I say mutually advantageous!

I agree on this: both companies make what they think is right, not what everyone else is doing.

Even their presentations look similar (after Microsoft and Sony showed lots of slides with polygons and floating point computing numbers on them, Nintendo showed everyone a huge "3" alone on a slide: "We can show you big numbers too." Priceless). :D

[Yvan256]

Maybe the expereience was because of the hardware?

Bill the TaxMan

The experience is what you do with the hardware: it comes from the software (even if the limitations are hardware).

I'd rather have a system that's 20% slower than the others but with good software/games for it. My Mac mini is slower than my old PC but OS X/iLife/iWork makes me more productive in the end.

If you look at Xbox 360/PS3 vs Revolution: what good is a powerful system if it's noisy and can't play Metroid Prime 3?