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coopdog
Dec 10, 2005, 03:40 PM
Hey guys,

I'm currently in the market to buy a 15" Powerbook. Do you think I should wait to see what comes out at the next apple convention? What are the current predictions for the next Powerbook upgrades, and when would they be updated?

I have heard that the Powerbooks will upgrade to Intel chips at some point and be much faster. What are your estimates for when the Intel chips would be implemented and become available?


Thanks guys for all the information! :)



f1restarter
Dec 10, 2005, 04:25 PM
i would get the PB now since the rumors are about the Ibooks with intel coming out in Jan 06, besides why risk getting rev A? Better to buy PB now and later on get rev B intel PB.

aaagat111
Dec 10, 2005, 04:51 PM
I strongly suggest you do not buy the current rev. powerbook, because of the numerous issues/problems with them that Apple is not even adressing. Why would you want to buy a 2000 dollar machine that only has a built in defect, along with a number of ofther problems. (Horizontal Lines, >1GB Ram problems ect.. just to name the major ones) I would much rather buy a machine where what you are looking at for the whole day(the screen) is not filled with distracting lines.

Therefore, waiting untill the new Intel Pbooks, is a good idea. Or you can try to buy the rev. d Powerbooks, the rev. just before the one with the line issue.

Hope this helps

-AAA

themacmaestro
Dec 10, 2005, 04:51 PM
i would buy now and that way you can pass through the Rev A. They are a great deal through Amazon.com right now, unless you can use your ed discount at Apple.

pubwvj
Dec 10, 2005, 04:52 PM
I'm also planning to get a PowerBook 15" - one of the ones that was just released. I believe that this release is the last PPC PowerBook build. I hope that it is as good as my PowerBook Pismo that it will replace. The Pismo was the last of it's line and a vastly superior machine to what came after. I would definitely not buy a first or even second revision of the Intel based PowerBooks. Let other people who choose to live on the cutting edge bleed as they figure out how to do it right. I have real work to do and want a machine that is stable.

Another reason I am buying the last of the PPC PowerBooks is that I have some applications that only run in Classic. There is no upgrade path. I have gigabytes of legacy data that I need these applications to access. Given that Apple is abandoning Classic I won't be buying a MacIntel machine as long as I need these programs and their data. By then Apple will have moved on to some other processor platform and abandoned OSX. I'll just skip both transitions.

QCassidy352
Dec 10, 2005, 04:55 PM
if you want to pay $2000 for a machine with a defective screen, go right ahead. I'm waiting until they fix this issue, whether it's with a PPC chip or Intel chip.

generik
Dec 10, 2005, 05:05 PM
Don't.. I just sold mine recently for a loss..

It has:
1) horizontal lines issue
2) > 1gb ram issue
3) stuttering sound
4) screen flashes and flickers occasionally
5) USB ports can't power my USB harddrive (works on everything else)

In fact, if that's the best Apple can deliver for a FIFTH revision, I really wonder how bad a Rev-A machine can get!

Besides expertise for designing Intel based motherboards are in great abundance in contrast to the current situation Apple has where they did all their own designs in house.

I'd wait for an Intel PB anyday.

coopdog
Dec 10, 2005, 05:06 PM
I have heard about some of the screen problems. So even if it has dead pixel lines or the horizontal lines you are talking about, they arenít covered under Applecare warranty?! It sounds like they are not covered; couldn't one argue that screen defects effect functionality and usability, and the screen problems must be fixed? Ever try to force a return and file a complaint with the fraud protection your credit card offers. Selling a product with known problems as major as horizontal dead lines (I have had a screen that had 2, 1pixel high lines and its annoying) means the product is not fully functioning and authorizes a credit card complaint (if Apple refuses to address or compensate for the issue).

We just got an Apple Store here in Salt Lake City; should I pay the higher price (over Amazon) at the store so I can return if it has screen or other problems?


Thanks again for all the help! :D

drsuse
Dec 10, 2005, 05:09 PM
can you get a refurb rev D?

i love my 15" rev d, and am very happy i didn't buy sooner or wait to buy later. it's gotta last me till at least may 2009, and i think i made the right choice.

f1restarter
Dec 10, 2005, 05:15 PM
Im sure you're not buying the Apple 15" from some hole in the wall dealer located overseas and buying it from a credible place where there is a return policy in case the PB has any screen issues. Some of the forum members sound like every single Apple 15" has a screen problem. Is that really the case?

generik
Dec 10, 2005, 05:16 PM
I have heard about some of the screen problems? So even if it has dead pixel lines or the horizontal lines you are talking about, they arenít covered under the warranty?

We just got an Apple Store here in Salt Lake City; should I pay the higher price (over amazon) at the store so I can return if it has problems?

Thanks again for all the help! :D

Amazon generally has a better return policy I believe, for 30 days if I am not mistaken.

At the end of the day it is your money, so don't say we didn't warn you.. This is truly a crap revision :rolleyes:


can you get a refurb rev D?

i love my 15" rev d, and am very happy i didn't buy sooner or wait to buy later. it's gotta last me till at least may 2009, and i think i made the right choice.


May 2009? That is kinda overkill isn't it? ;)

supersalzme
Dec 10, 2005, 07:40 PM
Has anyone tried asking the people at an apple store to get the 17" for the price of the 15", since the 15" is wacked out? I really want the 15"....but I wouldn't mind having the 17" either...if it was the same price. It's really easy to talk down dell in their prices...why not try it at an apple store? Has anyone tried this?

generik
Dec 10, 2005, 09:50 PM
Has anyone tried asking the people at an apple store to get the 17" for the price of the 15", since the 15" is wacked out? I really want the 15"....but I wouldn't mind having the 17" either...if it was the same price. It's really easy to talk down dell in their prices...why not try it at an apple store? Has anyone tried this?

I heard it was offered before, but YMMV

supersalzme
Dec 10, 2005, 10:36 PM
I heard it was offered before, but YMMV

Me being new...and dumb...what is YMMV?

munckee
Dec 11, 2005, 08:55 AM
I've been trying to keep up with all the rumors that are flying, but have admittedly fallen a bit behind lately.

I know it was expected that PB's would be pretty early in the line-up with the first ones running Yonah, which was expected to be a short-term solution until the Merom (that's not quite right, but you know which one I'm talking about) boards are ready.

Is that still the best guess information? Is it still a good idea to steer clear of the yonah books if you can manage?

fps
Dec 11, 2005, 09:52 AM
As "Generik" said the 5th revision of PPC Powerbooks has numerous pbms... so at this stage and with the next annoucements being just a month away I'd be waiting. My 5th gen Powerbook went back after just 3 days... Oh and despite what some people may say, the 5th gen Powerbooks all have the screen issue and more...
I think Apple moved most of their engineers to the Intel platform so I wouldn't be surprised if the Rev A Intel Powerbooks are actually of better quality than the Rev. E PPC Powerbooks.

Just my thoughts.

kingcrowing
Dec 11, 2005, 09:57 AM
I used a new one at Small Dog the other day, and it was sick (I decided I wanted the 17" though) and If you can get one thats has no lines, then I'd say go for the current rev. I mean seriously, they have plenty of power, esp. with 128MB graphics, and you can put up to 2GB of RAM ($154 at 18004memory.com for 2x1GB) it has DDR2 memory, and 1.67GHz is plenty fast for most stuff you will do on a regular basis, also the newer Revs have a higher res. screen, and personally, Thats very important to me.

themacmaestro
Dec 11, 2005, 10:00 AM
if you want to pay $2000 for a machine with a defective screen, go right ahead. I'm waiting until they fix this issue, whether it's with a PPC chip or Intel chip.


I don't have a defective screen and I don't think many others do either... Just the ones who complain.

FFTT
Dec 11, 2005, 10:39 AM
I think the majority of people don't really NEED a PowerBook for most of what they do on the run, of course with some exceptions.

Right now the smart buy is the 17" iMac G5 with either a refurbed 12" iBook
or 12" PowerBook for portable needs.

The iMac is a far better machine across the board and I feel that most people would benefit from the iMac/iBook combo set-up at about the same price as they would be paying for a properly equipped 15" or 17" Powerbook alone.

steve_hill4
Dec 11, 2005, 04:09 PM
I intend to wait out and see what the Rev. A Intel PowerBooks will offer. I almost certainly will get a Rev. A, but if they are complete rubbish, there should be a few older PPC PBs left, (and usually anything up to 10-20% cheaper, brand new, just to shift them). I really don't see it as that hard a decision once we do know what's available. You can see the specs of both, make a decision and if you want to go for the older PPC model, save yourself a few quid too. If there are none available, you get the Intel PB instead.

That's my plan.

ortuno2k
Dec 12, 2005, 12:29 AM
I just ordered a 15" PB from Amazon this Friday, so I'm waiting on it before I buy RAM or anything else for it. I really hope it doesn't have those crazy screen lines many people talk about.
If so, I'll return it to Amazon for an exchange.
I wouldn't wait until Apple releases Intel PBs; it may be a little longer than Jan '06, or I'd feel kinda iffy about the performance and issues on brand new PBs.
That's my .03 cents :)

coopdog
Dec 12, 2005, 12:44 AM
HEY! I went to the Salt Lake Apple store and picked up a 15" PB base model. I LOVE IT. It's nice to have a fast mac again! It's a little bit faster than my 350 mhz G4. :D
I figured I couldn't wait for a new version to come out, and with edu. discount the PB went from about $2500 w/ apple care to $2100. I saved a ton.

Thanks guy's for all the advice!

I think I will be spending a little bit more time on Mac Rumors! :D

Thanks Again!

(Oh yeah, and no hori. lines, yet...)

supersalzme
Dec 12, 2005, 12:44 AM
Once again, has anyone tried asking for a 17" for the price of a 15" since the 15's have the line problem? I'm going to go in the apple store tomorrow and see if it will work. If it does...man, it will be hard to pass up getting one. I need to keep telling myself January 10th is not that far away....

coopdog
Dec 12, 2005, 12:47 AM
Once again, has anyone tried asking for a 17" for the price of a 15" since the 15's have the line problem? I'm going to go in the apple store tomorrow and see if it will work. If it does...man, it will be hard to pass up getting one. I need to keep telling myself January 10th is not that far away....

At least in the SLC Apple store, they have had no returns for any screen problems on the powerbooks.

ozone
Dec 12, 2005, 12:48 AM
Besides expertise for designing Intel based motherboards are in great abundance in contrast to the current situation Apple has where they did all their own designs in house.

I have to agree with generik. Sure, the RevA models might have some issues, but there are a hoard of designers with Intel expertise now. Keep in mind that the actual fabricators over in Asia pretty much make ALL of the Intel based laptops right now. I would think the new Intel based PBs should be relatively headache free. Most of the new models that come out on the Windows side are pretty much bang-on hardware wise the first time around. The Windows OS is usually the problem.

supersalzme
Dec 12, 2005, 01:01 AM
Hmmm. Well is there an image I could bring in the Apple store to prove my point? I don't want to go in there and say, "well...the lines..."..and when they ask me to show them...I can't prove anything.

wildcard
Dec 12, 2005, 02:13 PM
Once again, has anyone tried asking for a 17" for the price of a 15" since the 15's have the line problem? I'm going to go in the apple store tomorrow and see if it will work. If it does...man, it will be hard to pass up getting one. I need to keep telling myself January 10th is not that far away....

I was given this option by Apple Customer Relations, but only after returning 2 15" Powerbooks exhibiting the lines issue. My 15"s were ordered directly from Apple, so I have no idea what your luck in the retail store would be.

Also, regarding a demonstration image....there are posts here by Wombert, including a URL to a page of info on the issue. You can also do a Google search for "Crankycat", which should give you a picture that you can use to demonstrate the issue.

California
Dec 12, 2005, 03:08 PM
I'd try to get a deal on a new one now.

supersalzme
Dec 12, 2005, 03:14 PM
I'd try to get a deal on a new one now.

Why's that?

supersalzme
Dec 12, 2005, 07:33 PM
So I went to the apple store today and pointed out the lines problem. The guys in the store said they, "never heard of the problem". So of course, being the helpful person I am, I clearly pointed out the terrible lines in every single powerbook they had. One employer said, "wow, I don't even want to look at them anymore, haha". They still wouldn't give me a 17" for the 15"...so I guess that's that.

Pacer
Dec 16, 2005, 05:42 PM
Wow - what a great idea althhough I would want to get the 20" I mac. What about buying someone else's problems with refurbished?

I think the majority of people don't really NEED a PowerBook for most of what they do on the run, of course with some exceptions.

Right now the smart buy is the 17" iMac G5 with either a refurbed 12" iBook
or 12" PowerBook for portable needs.

The iMac is a far better machine across the board and I feel that most people would benefit from the iMac/iBook combo set-up at about the same price as they would be paying for a properly equipped 15" or 17" Powerbook alone.

generik
Dec 16, 2005, 09:32 PM
Instead of the PB I would recommend a 2.0 DC PowerMac instead for doing the heavy lifting at home, and maybe a refurb iBook for cheap on the go computing.

Sure, you spend like $800 more on 2 machines instead of 1, but you sure get a heck of alot of computer for your money in contrast with just a 15" PB (which is a really POS machine IMHO)

mynameismatt89
Dec 17, 2005, 08:10 AM
does anyone know how much more expensive - lets say an ibook - will be once they have Intel chips in them? because i am close to buying an ibook, but not quite yet. And if the Intel chips come out and the price is alot higher, i will have to wait alot longer to buy one.

thanks - Matt

Seasought
Dec 17, 2005, 09:45 AM
HEY! I went to the Salt Lake Apple store and picked up a 15" PB base model. I LOVE IT. It's nice to have a fast mac again! It's a little bit faster than my 350 mhz G4.

Congrats! I'm glad you're happy with your new purchase.
:D

munckee
Dec 17, 2005, 11:33 AM
Instead of the PB I would recommend a 2.0 DC PowerMac instead for doing the heavy lifting at home, and maybe a refurb iBook for cheap on the go computing.

Sure, you spend like $800 more on 2 machines instead of 1, but you sure get a heck of alot of computer for your money in contrast with just a 15" PB (which is a really POS machine IMHO)

Yeah, it's only the entire price of the ibook extra. Why not?? Come on, at some point this whole "buy an extra computer" thing has to stop. You're not talking an extra $100 here. Plus you have to deal with a monitor, etc for the PowerMac.

generik
Dec 17, 2005, 02:26 PM
At the end of the day it really depends on what the original poster wanted out of his powerbook. But to be real straight with you, there is very little power in the powerbook right now, so buying it does seem foolish right now.

munckee
Dec 17, 2005, 02:31 PM
At the end of the day it really depends on what the original poster wanted out of his powerbook. But to be real straight with you, there is very little power in the powerbook right now, so buying it does seem foolish right now.

I won't disagree with that at all (which I why I've been waiting for 8 months to get one). However, its still a far cry between "wait a little while for the next PB" and "spend an extra $800 plus a monitor and buy two computers instead".

OldCorpse
Dec 17, 2005, 03:19 PM
I won't disagree with that at all (which I why I've been waiting for 8 months to get one). However, its still a far cry between "wait a little while for the next PB" and "spend an extra $800 plus a monitor and buy two computers instead".

Personally, I think it makes sense to buy a brand new 12" iBook... right now, on Amazon, it is under $800 ($785) with all the rebates. That's pretty cheap, and you get a good, time-tested design. Or you can wait until January and see what is announced, and then make your decision or then buy the older iBook, which shouldn't be much more expensive... Either way, I wouldn't buy a PowerBook right now, certainly not the problem plagued 15"... YMMV.

supersalzme
Dec 17, 2005, 03:31 PM
I'm pretty sure I picked the worst time to be in the market for a powerbook....

steve_hill4
Dec 17, 2005, 04:11 PM
I guess the horizontal lines are another good reason for me to wait a while longer for the PB purchase. I'm itching to get my hands on one, but willing to wait until the time is right.

I just have a feeling that they will come at MWSF, then they will also have upgraded specs all round.:D

generik
Dec 17, 2005, 04:28 PM
I'm pretty sure I picked the worst time to be in the market for a powerbook....

It may prove to the best too :)

munckee
Dec 17, 2005, 09:07 PM
Personally, I think it makes sense to buy a brand new 12" iBook... right now, on Amazon, it is under $800 ($785) with all the rebates. That's pretty cheap, and you get a good, time-tested design. Or you can wait until January and see what is announced, and then make your decision or then buy the older iBook, which shouldn't be much more expensive... Either way, I wouldn't buy a PowerBook right now, certainly not the problem plagued 15"... YMMV.

I don't need an ibook. Despite the notion that most people don't need a powerbook, I can assure you that I do. I'm a professional in a design industry; the ibook won't cut it for the majority of my work. I'll get by on what I have until the powerbook is a system worth buying.

OldCorpse
Dec 18, 2005, 02:55 AM
I don't need an ibook. Despite the notion that most people don't need a powerbook, I can assure you that I do. I'm a professional in a design industry; the ibook won't cut it for the majority of my work. I'll get by on what I have until the powerbook is a system worth buying.

I didn't mean to offend you :( ... You know your needs best, and if you feel it's gotta be a PB, then that's what you should look for. I only mentioned the iBook as an option because it is a pretty small segment of the market that *truly* needs a PB... oh, I know, many think they can't do their work on an IB, but actually they simply never tried (especially the latest rev)... and I know several graphic designers who use the 12" IB (though a couple hook it to a larger monitor) btw., I don't mean to say you in particular fall into the category "don't really need a PB", I'm just observing that some folks have made up their minds based on old specs of previous IB vs PB.

All that said, yes, if you need a PB, you need a PB. However, I'd say in that case definitely wait - and not only because of the possible Mactels. If the PB mactels ARE NOT announced in January, or don't appear until March/April 06 or even later, then you should STILL wait EVEN if you were to decide to buy the latest PPC PB... reason: right now, the 15" are having serious problems... however, as time goes by, the engineers figure out solutions, and as the production run is tinkered with, after a while they actually solve some of those problems, without even having to officially do another rev (as they did with the famous white spots on the monitors awhile back). So either way, for the 15", it makes sense to wait: first for the possibility of an awesome and not too buggy Mactel, and second to give them time to fix the current revision of the 15". Good luck!

OldCorpse
quietly rotting

generik
Dec 18, 2005, 04:28 AM
Truth be told, there is very little that the current PBs can do that the current iBs can't do.

munckee
Dec 18, 2005, 01:29 PM
I didn't mean to offend you :( ... You know your needs best, and if you feel it's gotta be a PB, then that's what you should look for. I only mentioned the iBook as an option because it is a pretty small segment of the market that *truly* needs a PB... oh, I know, many think they can't do their work on an IB, but actually they simply never tried (especially the latest rev)... and I know several graphic designers who use the 12" IB (though a couple hook it to a larger monitor) btw., I don't mean to say you in particular fall into the category "don't really need a PB", I'm just observing that some folks have made up their minds based on old specs of previous IB vs PB.

All that said, yes, if you need a PB, you need a PB. However, I'd say in that case definitely wait - and not only because of the possible Mactels. If the PB mactels ARE NOT announced in January, or don't appear until March/April 06 or even later, then you should STILL wait EVEN if you were to decide to buy the latest PPC PB... reason: right now, the 15" are having serious problems... however, as time goes by, the engineers figure out solutions, and as the production run is tinkered with, after a while they actually solve some of those problems, without even having to officially do another rev (as they did with the famous white spots on the monitors awhile back). So either way, for the 15", it makes sense to wait: first for the possibility of an awesome and not too buggy Mactel, and second to give them time to fix the current revision of the 15". Good luck!

OldCorpse
quietly rotting


:cool: No harm. I wasn't offended, simply explaining that I do actually need a PB and not an iBook. I think that you'll find that most professional level desingers will benefit from the PB over the iB, even if the iBook will get the job done.

I completely agree. I was planning to buy this latest revision of the PB, but then rumors started leaking of a mactel PB in january as well as the issues with the current PB's, so I've decided to hold off. I'm also not certain that I'll jump at the first revision of the mactel PB either. I'd like a stable system that will last a while.

Of course, right now I'm using a G3 ibook and running it to the absolute limits just to get my work done. I may get a mini in the meantime (and run that to its limits) then use it as a media machine once I get my hands on a PB.

Beck446
Dec 18, 2005, 02:19 PM
With less than a month to go, in my humble opinion, nobody - excepting the extreme cases - should be buying a Mac laptop right now. Nobody.

pubwvj
Dec 18, 2005, 03:11 PM
With less than a month to go, in my humble opinion, nobody - excepting the extreme cases - should be buying a Mac laptop right now. Nobody.

Except I definitely, definitely do not want an x86 based PowerBook. I want the last, best PPC PowerBook. Thus I just ordered mine.

generik
Dec 18, 2005, 04:08 PM
Except I definitely, definitely do not want an x86 based PowerBook. I want the last, best PPC PowerBook. Thus I just ordered mine.

And to spite you fate may present a 7448 based PB in MWSF :)

It always pays to wait especially when the next event is so close.

supersalzme
Dec 18, 2005, 04:15 PM
Except I definitely, definitely do not want an x86 based PowerBook. I want the last, best PPC PowerBook. Thus I just ordered mine.

And you could have waited a month to get it, and save at LEAST 200 bucks when the new ones come out...

ortuno2k
Dec 19, 2005, 02:14 AM
I get mine in just a few hours (hopefully UPS delivers on time) and so I'll know and I'll test mine in every way.
If there are lines or issues, I'll return for refund and wait 'till the event.
I'd hate to make a $2000 dollar mistake by buying a defective PB or buying right before a new, cooler, non-defective one is released (we hope).
:rolleyes:

pubwvj
Dec 29, 2005, 12:25 PM
I'm currently in the market to buy a 15" Powerbook. Do you think I should wait to see what comes out at the next apple convention?

I didn't wait because I need the PPC and wanted something that was the end of the line where the maximum number of issues have been resolved. I received my PowerBook 15" yesterday. The screen is gorgous. No lines or anything bad. I'm very pleased and glad I bought now. This machine will serve me well for the next five to seven years and by then Apple will have worked out the kinks in their switch to MacIntel.

Veritas&Equitas
Dec 29, 2005, 03:54 PM
No lines or anything bad. I'm very pleased and glad I bought now. This machine will serve me well for the next five to seven years and by then Apple will have worked out the kinks in their switch to MacIntel.

First off, please post some pics then, I don't believe we've found any current rev Powerbook without the lines. Second, you may be pleased now, but may not be in two weeks after MWSF. If you'll have the ability to boot both OS X and Windows, in addition to better performance, battery life, etc. you maybe be kicking yourself in two weeks. Third, 5-7 years to "work out the kinks?" Please tell me you're joking. It may take 1 rev, or maybe 2, but 5-7 years for God's sakes? One year from now they will be completely fine I'm sure.

pubwvj
Dec 29, 2005, 04:50 PM
First off, please post some pics then, I don't believe we've found any current rev Powerbook without the lines.

See the attached photo. In real life the screen looks even better than that. It is much smoother than the photo and the color is better. The odd blue/purple color cast is because I have a reef tank on my desk.

Second, you may be pleased now, but may not be in two weeks after MWSF. If you'll have the ability to boot both OS X and Windows, in addition to better performance, battery life, etc. you maybe be kicking yourself in two weeks.

Wow, you are soooo wrong. I want a PPC PowerBook that can run Classic and OSX. I do not have any need to run Windows. I specifically bought this one because it is the end of the line, the best PPC notebook computer Apple has ever or will ever make. This is what _I_ need.

You on the other hand can buy the MacIntel Rev. A machines and I wish you the best of luck. Apple, as with other manufacturers, has a long history of screwing up the first one or two revisions. I have real work to do so I'll skip those. Remember, "People on the cutting edge bleed a lot." :) Have fun.

DIXIE
Dec 29, 2005, 08:13 PM
Hi Walter ..... it's me again ...... your point of view regarding the PPC PowerBook is exactly what I have intended!! :)


Wow, you are soooo wrong. I want a PPC PowerBook that can run Classic and OSX. I do not have any need to run Windows. I specifically bought this one because it is the end of the line, the best PPC notebook computer Apple has ever or will ever make. This is what _I_ need.

You on the other hand can buy the MacIntel Rev. A machines and I wish you the best of luck. Apple, as with other manufacturers, has a long history of screwing up the first one or two revisions. I have real work to do so I'll skip those. Remember, "People on the cutting edge bleed a lot." :) Have fun.

If you noticed in the sub-details, V & E is also a Windoze User :p, which accounts for the salivating viewpoint.

V & E misunderstood your 5-7 year statement .... you want to USE the PB for that time frame. :)

The green area in your thumbnail photo looked very good, even if the overall blowup was a bit fuzzy.

Don't forget that RAM slot checkout.;)

Enjoy your PB. :D

DIXIE
:) :)

pubwvj
Dec 29, 2005, 10:39 PM
V & E misunderstood your 5-7 year statement .... you want to USE the PB for that time frame. :) ... Don't forget that RAM slot checkout.;) Enjoy your PB. :D DIXIE :) :)

Yes, that is what I meant. I used my last PowerBook (Pismo 400MHz) for five and a half years and it is still going strong. It was the best of it's generation. My wife is getting it now. Her machine is passing on to another hand in the family, etc. I tend to keep a machine running for five to seven years and in some cases much longer.

Some people had said the first photo was not good enough for them. Here is another photo. It is a closeup. Note that this is such a detailed shot that you can clearly see the black traces between the LCD cells. That is normal and not visible under regular usage. If someone's complaining about that they need to peal their eyeballs off the screen! :)

Still no lines, dead pixels or waveyness. I'm happy! :)

I will check the RAM slot real soon. I'm getting my order ready as we speak. OWC was a good suggestion, thanks. They have an excellent price on the 1Gig RAM and I have been happy with them in the past for other stuff.

freshleon
Dec 30, 2005, 07:07 AM
Some people had said the first photo was not good enough for them. Here is another photo. It is a closeup. Note that this is such a detailed shot that you can clearly see the black traces between the LCD cells. That is normal and not visible under regular usage. If someone's complaining about that they need to peal their eyeballs off the screen! :)

Still no lines, dead pixels or waveyness. I'm happy! :)

There are lines visible in that image you posted. It may be difficult to see but they are there. I own one of these new Powerbooks and its very difficult to see the lines at all. Only a very close macro shot like that one will show this defect.

I guess some peoples eyes are just more sensitive than others.

pubwvj
Dec 30, 2005, 07:45 AM
There are lines visible in that image you posted. It may be difficult to see but they are there. I own one of these new Powerbooks and its very difficult to see the lines at all. Only a very close macro shot like that one will show this defect.

Wow! Unreal. There are no lines on my screen. If you have to use a close macro shot to see something that isn't there, then you're being unreasonable. The fact that you claim there are lines when there are not makes me think your screen also has no lines. No wonder Apple is rejecting people's claims and ignoring it. Guess I should have bought my PB back when they first came out rather than listening to all the scare-mongers whine for the last couple of months. There are no alternating bands of light and dark pixels "the lines" in the macro shot. The screen is perfect. If that is "flawed" then every LCD screen I have ever seen is flawed and we have about 20 here. You're looking for something that isn't there. Get real.

You make me think that your PB doesn't have any lines either and this whole issue was bogus - i.e., there are no lines on any PowerBooks. Up until now I was perfectly willing to believe that some people had gotten faulty PowerBook screens that showed a real problem, not just something in their heads.

The reason I posted to start with is that my screen look great. I do photo work every day. I do layout and design. I use the web and email. There are no lines. The screen is gorgeous. I think it is important that people who do have good screens to post a note so that peple who have not yet bought know that the lines are not on 100% of the screens. I would have bought a lot earlier knowing and seeing what I see now on my screen.

This is to people who have not bought a PowerBook but want to: There are no lines on mine. The screen is beautiful. Maybe some people have lines on theirs. Maybe they are just seeing things that aren't there like freshleon. The fact remains there exist screens that are perfectly fine - no lines, no dead pixels, no waveyness. I wish that I had bought sooner since I'm coming to the conclusion that either this is a minor issue that affects only a few screens or perhaps it is only a defect in some people's heads. Either way it is not significant. If you actually get a screen with lines, call Apple. People have reported Apple doing exchanges. I'm unsubscribing to this thread as the people with lines in their eyes are stuck there. This is rediculous. It makes me wonder if people like freshleon are trolls for Microsoft or something. Stranger and stranger...

840quadra
Dec 30, 2005, 08:01 AM
There are lines visible in that image you posted. It may be difficult to see but they are there. I own one of these new Powerbooks and its very difficult to see the lines at all. Only a very close macro shot like that one will show this defect.

I guess some peoples eyes are just more sensitive than others.


If that is the case (Which it is not), mine also has lines! (see Image below)

Wow! Unreal. There are no lines on my screen. If you have to use a close macro shot to see something that isn't there, then you're being unreasonable. The fact that you claim there are lines when there are not makes me think your screen also has no lines. No wonder Apple is rejecting people's claims and ignoring it.

I agree, and my gut feeling is that there are a few powerbooks with lines warranting valid complaints. At the same time, mass paranoia is making people that DO NOT have a problem, think that they do.

If you need a powerbook, buy it, if you can wait, by all means wait. Just don't use the excuse of there being line issues to wait, as I am sure that there will be some issue that the chronic complaining group will find on the next revision.

I am not intending to offend, my intent is to be realistic!

aristobrat
Dec 30, 2005, 08:05 AM
I asked pubwvj, but thought I'd also ask here.

Can someone with an older "non-horizontal-line" PB screen post a close-up screen shot like the one above?

My only laptop experience (before my new 15" PB) has been with Dell/HP/IBM, and their screens have always had "lines" like above (when you look close enough, anyway). I'm wondering if this is why I don't "see" the lines on my 15" -- I'm used to them.

840quadra
Dec 30, 2005, 08:36 AM
I asked pubwvj, but thought I'd also ask here.

Can someone with an older "non-horizontal-line" PB screen post a close-up screen shot like the one above?

My only laptop experience (before my new 15" PB) has been with Dell/HP/IBM, and their screens have always had "lines" like above (when you look close enough, anyway). I'm wondering if this is why I don't "see" the lines on my 15" -- I'm used to them.

If you don't see lines, then what's the point?

Since I don't see why it needs to be a "powerbook" display, I am posting up 2 pictures from my non Apple LCD attached to my G5 Powermac

http://www.neuwerks.com/albums/game/IMG_7406.sized.jpg

http://www.neuwerks.com/albums/game/IMG_7402.sized.jpg

aristobrat
Dec 30, 2005, 08:55 AM
If you don't see lines, then what's the point?
I'm just curious as to "why" others can see lines in something that I can't. Maybe "can see" isn't as good of a term as is "are bothered by".

Since I don't see why it needs to be a "powerbook" display...
Right, and as I expected, the "lines" in your pictures look the same (to me) as the ones from pubwvj's new PowerBook.

I was asking for pictures from older PowerBooks because somehow, after reading all of the posts in the umpteen threads about the "horizontal line issue", I expect a shot from an older PowerBook screen to look different from what you and pubwvj have posted.

840quadra
Dec 30, 2005, 09:04 AM
I'm just curious as to "why" others can see lines in something that I can't. Maybe "can see" isn't as good of a term as is "are bothered by".

It is because people are being hypersensitive in regards to this subject. I don't doubt that there were a few powerbooks with issues in the beginning, and even now. Even with that, some posts by people saying they see lines in pubwvj's display, and on others like it, are either paranoid, or have bad displays themselves.




Right, and as I expected, the "lines" in your pictures look the same (to me) as the ones from pubwvj's new PowerBook.

I was asking for pictures from older PowerBooks because somehow, after reading all of the posts in the umpteen threads about the "horizontal line issue", I expect a shot from an older PowerBook screen to look different from what you and pubwvj have posted.

I don't see how it would look different, unless you mean you don't expect it to look different ?

::EDIT::

Nevermind, I see what you are saying now.. I am just slow this Friday morning ;)

aristobrat
Dec 30, 2005, 09:27 AM
I am just slow this Friday morning ;)
No problem at all -- I've been slow all week. ;) :D

Seasought
Dec 30, 2005, 09:32 AM
I'm sure you've made up your mind at this point but I'll post my two cents any way.

Given how close the expo is I would say wait for now (barring extreme, uncontrollable urges to get one immediately). You never know what might come out that makes you change your mind on what it is you think you need with regard to a portable solution.

I myself had to exchange my 15" battery for a new one. I have 1.5 GB of RAM in mine and no problems. I don't have lines in my display and I don't have problems with the screen flickering.

If I were in the market to buy I'd wait for the expo to take place then consider my options.

BENJMNS
Dec 30, 2005, 11:24 AM
yo let's all chill out cuz we're not set out to save the manatees here right?

the apple desktop pic is a bad test pic. try this. go to www.cnet.com. see those orange bands on both sides of the page? the lines should show up pretty clearly there. especially when you have a non-affected screen right next to you.

as for the wavy scanning bands, that's most evident in the cranky cat pic.

it is a major issue because i've visited two major apple stores today and sampled each of their 15" powerbooks. they all have the scan lines as well as the banding. the 17s don't though one of the 17s did show the moving scan lines, but not to the degree of the 15s.

this IS an issue. bottom line.

840quadra
Dec 30, 2005, 11:42 AM
yo let's all chill out cuz

Like it or not, writing style does have a psychological effect on how people perceive written expressions. This is true no matter how correct or informative the post is.


this IS an issue. bottom line.

I can't speak for all the others, but I understand that this issue is real, and do not think otherwise. I have seen powerbooks with the lines in person, and see that it would be an issue if one was to have an effected powerbook.

With that, I have been to 2 Apple stores multiple times during the past couple months, and did not see lines on any of their 15" powerbooks. I also do not think the problem exists on all 15" powerbooks, as some on here appear to feel / think.

BENJMNS
Dec 30, 2005, 11:49 AM
Like it or not, writing style does have a psychological effect on how people perceive written expressions. This is true no matter how correct or informative the post is.


More so, it'll be the content of their message and the fact that you even bothered to write what you did here shows you may have something stuck up your posterior. ;)

So unless you're (oooh mistake here so sorry, your right?... plus the parenthesis...oh sorry yet again) last name is Webster, you might try being a bit more casual and accepting about one's grammar and spelling since we are on an internet bulletin board.

And since when did Mac users become so uppity? Especially those from miserable Minnesota?

I've seen enough of these screens to think almost all are impacted. I've yet to run into one that's completely clear and devoid.

840quadra
Dec 30, 2005, 11:54 AM
More so, it'll be the content of their message and the fact that you even bothered to write what you did here shows you may have something stuck up your posterior. ;)

So unless you're last name is Webster, you might try being a bit more casual and accepting about one's grammar and spelling since we are on an internet bulletin board.

And since when did Mac users become so uppity?

I've seen enough of these screens to think almost all are impacted. I've yet to run into one that's completely clear and devoid.

I am just giving advice that has been shared with myself in the past, and actually is true.

If you don't like it, and feel that it is an ad homonym attack (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem), I am sorry you feel that way.

Happy new year :)

Seasought
Dec 30, 2005, 11:56 AM
So unless you're (oooh mistake here so sorry, your right?... plus the parenthesis...oh sorry yet again) last name is Webster, you might try being a bit more casual and accepting about one's grammar and spelling since we are on an internet bulletin board.

And since when did Mac users become so uppity? Especially those from miserable Minnesota?

I've seen enough of these screens to think almost all are impacted. I've yet to run into one that's completely clear and devoid.

Did I miss something? He was quite polite about his remark, I don't see a problem with him making the statement that he did. I'm also uncertain as to why you insulted his, presumably, hometown / location of residency.

:confused:

pubwvj
Dec 30, 2005, 12:20 PM
I'm just curious as to "why" others can see lines in something that I can't. Maybe "can see" isn't as good of a term as is "are bothered by".
Right, and as I expected, the "lines" in your pictures look the same (to me) as the ones from pubwvj's new PowerBook.
I was asking for pictures from older PowerBooks because somehow, after reading all of the posts in the umpteen threads about the "horizontal line issue", I expect a shot from an older PowerBook screen to look different from what you and pubwvj have posted.

Hi Aristobrat,

As promised, here is a photo of my Pismo. It looks essencially the same as the new PB15, that is to say there are the intercell 'lines' on the LCD cells and like the newer machine it has no 'lines' (although my Pismo does have one stuck pixel). The newer screen is much sharper, crisper and brighter. I've included the PM answers below as I said along with the photo I couldn't send via private message.

My new 15" PB is my first PB, so I have no other Apple experience to compare it to.

I, too, can't see any lines on my screen, but some of the Mac users in our graphic arts dept saw them. But those folks have been using PB's for the last 10 years.

I've been using notebook computers since they first came out and we've had dozens of different ones here in our home and work. I do a lot of work with layout and photographs. The current generation, including my new PB15", look the best I have ever seen. There are no flaw lines.

Examining the photo in Photoshop to check the luminocity and color of the LCD cells shows they are fine. There are no 'lines' in the LCD cells. That is a scientific test of it. My screen does not have any lines. The only lines are the intercell spacing and those have always been there.

Note that the original 'lines' problem that I saw people describing was that one row of LCD cells would be bright and the next row down dimmer, etc. The only 'lines' on my screen are the intercell lines between the pixels. That is not the same thing.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the people who are seeing the 'lines' are seeing the microscopic spacing between the LCD cells. The very fact that they insist on looking at macro closeup photo to see the 'lines' says it isn't a real issue. The actual LCD cells are fine. If they are looking at the spacing (black lines) then they need to back off. The proper viewing distance for a screen is something like 18" or more.

My best guess is that a few people had real problems with the screens (alternating rows of lighter and darker LCD cells) and then other people have looked too close (step back and peel your eyeballs of the screen please!) and started seeing the trace lines on the LCD between the cells. Then they began freaking out that they too had a problem when their screens were fine. The fact that some people have looked at my photos of my screen which has no problem and seen 'lines' tells me those people are not seeing a real problem. They are seeing the intercell spacing, not alternating lines of dark and light LCD cells (pixels).

Is there any way you could take a close-up of your old PB screen like you did of your new one?

Good question. I can't send it via this private message so I'll just post it to the discussion list along with this text. Note that my Pismo is a five and a half year old machine based on older LCD technology so it doesn't look as good as a new PB15" by far. The new one is crisp, clear and bright. My five year old Pismo is rather dim and dingy in comparison. I see no lines on my Pismo screen other than the intercell spacing nor on my son's iMac G5 Rev. B nor on my other son's brand new iBook G4 nor on my wife's PBG3 nor on any of our other LCD displays. All of them show the intercell spacing both horizontally and vertically but that is not a flaw - that is how the screens are made. It's a digital world. :) Even expensive high quality CRT's have interpixel spacing. Every LCD in our work and home has those 'lines'. None of them are 'flaws'.

Cheers,

-Walter
in Vermont
with no lines
on his screens.

CTSxViper
Dec 30, 2005, 12:32 PM
Well, I'll add some good news. I didn't listen to all the negative hype about the lines. I need a laptop now (MAC). I already have a Windows based one. I went to the Apple Store, and spent a lot of time with the Powerbooks (15&17), and bought a 15". No Flickering, and the line issue that you point out is really not a concern to me. I've had 5 laptops in the last year and 1/2 through work and my personal use and this screen is by far fantastic, only edged out by my Dell 1920x1200 WUXGA Display. I am thoroughly enjoying my Powerbook and have seen not one bad issue with this. Again, I don't need to dual boot windows and Tiger. I'm glad I did it, and to all who are waiting. If you truly need a Mac Laptop now, go to an Apple store and see it in person for youself. If the purported banding bothers you then wait. But I tell you what, I spent a lot of time looking also at Windows Laptops this Christmas, and a lot of the XBrite WXGA & WSXGA Displays can't hold a candle to the 15 & 17" Powerbooks.. Cheers..
:D
CTSxViper

P.S.--Walter, good post.. Your points are right on..

DIXIE
Dec 30, 2005, 12:51 PM
Did I miss something? He was quite polite about his remark, I don't see a problem with him making the statement that he did. I'm also uncertain as to why you insulted his, presumably, hometown / location of residency.
:confused:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey Guys & Gals were letting this 15"PB issue(s) make the atmosphere a bit testy!:p

Select one of the following events to describe our concerns:
"As You Like It", "To Have or Have Not", "The Night of the Long Knives" (1930s Germany), or my personal choice "Razzle Dazzle" (from the movie Chigago) only in this instance it is performed by Steverino J. :rolleyes:

I still want the last and best PPC PB, so if the January 15"PB production doesn't show a permanent quality correction for the Display and RAM slot issues, I'll be going for the 17"PB. :)

There is no way an Intel x86, Yonah, Mermon, C.... whatever, is ever going to join my network of other Macs. :p

DIXIE
:) :)

LucT
Dec 30, 2005, 01:52 PM
" There are no 'lines' in the LCD cells. That is a scientific test of it." The only lines are the intercell spacing and those have always been there.
"I have a sneaking suspicion that the people who are seeing the 'lines' are seeing the microscopic spacing between the LCD cells."
" They are seeing the intercell spacing, not alternating lines of dark and light LCD cells (pixels)."


If you have one second and really want to know what is producing the line problem, go to this thread of the Apple Forum

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=286351&tstart=0

You will find two very close pictures from a line affected and a line less PB15" and could make your own opinion on the pixel structure difference between the line less and the lined screen.

The lines do exist and they are a real hardware defect. They are not a specificity of "very amazingly wonderful screens". They are produced by repetitive pixel defects (every other horizontal pixel is defective), as well as by a misalignment between two consecutive rows of pixels.

Lets have a try and tell me what you think.

netb0y
Dec 30, 2005, 02:09 PM
I have yet to see any line-less 15" Powerbooks on display at either of the two Apple stores that I am able to check out fairly frequently. One is in southern NJ and the other is in northern VA. As of 12/29 in NJ and 12/22 in VA all the 15" Powerbooks on display in both stores had the lines.

If there are Powerbooks without the lines then why are then not on the floors of the Apple Stores?

When I wanted to "exchange" my 15" Powerbook for one without lines I was told that they were ALL like that. After some arguing they let me open up another one in the store and it too had the lines. I accepted a refund and will now waiting for the fix to be released.

Maybe some of them dont have the lines, I don't know. All I know is that the two I tried to purchase and ALL the ones on display at two Apple Stores have the lines (not to mention all the people on here complaining about them, with only one person saying that they dont have the lines). If you want to take a chance then go ahead and get one. Apple is aware of the defect and you can always return it.

Chkalov
Dec 30, 2005, 02:10 PM
Colleagues, the problem with the lines is really exist!
Hundreds of users write about it on the forums. There are two questions: when the defect will be officially recognized by Apple and when solution will be offered.

However, here comes a man that says he bought the PowerBook and its screen is perfect! The point of his emails is - "just buy PowerBooks"! There are no problems with that! Moreover, he become to assure that problem never exist and most of users just imagine it! In fact he pushing them to buy it but to be more honest he would warned everyone that buying PowerBooks is a lottery.

What can i say about that defect. When you open picture on the screen (for example http://crankycat.com/pb15_problems.png) - IT MUST LOOK identically in every part of the screen. When you open it on the PowerBook screen, "cranky cat" picture looks different when you moving it. What kind of proof do you want?

Shame on Apple that knows about that problem but many users have to prove it every time for their payed money.

840quadra
Dec 30, 2005, 02:40 PM
Colleagues, the problem with the lines is really exist!


Yes we know this, nobody is saying otherwise. We also got your point when you posted the exact same thing in this thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=2013188#post2013188) with this post! (http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost.php?p=2013188&postcount=1048)

LucT
Dec 30, 2005, 03:37 PM
I too do not have seen a new powerbook 15" HR without lines. It seems however that some W8542 units are described as line less.

As you could see in my previous post, there is at least one supermacro picture of a line less PBHR screen posted on the Apple forum. The picture looks VERY different from a macro picture of a PB HR screen with lines.

I would appreciate your opinion on these images (assuming that the posters of this forum have posted honest contributions).

http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=286351&tstart=0


:confused: