MTV and Microsoft Music Store in 2006 [Archive]

MacRumors

Dec 14, 2005, 07:51 AM

http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com)

ZDNet reports (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-5993125.html) that MTV may finally be ready to launch their online music store to compete against iTunes.

MTV first announced (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/11/20031104010137.shtml) plans for a music store back in 2003, not long after Apple's iTunes launch. MTV appears to have partnered with Microsoft to offer their music store which is expected to offer subscription-based sales as well as individual song sales.

According to Macworld.co.uk (http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?home&NewsID=13358), the new service, called "Urge", will reportedly be heavily promoted across MTV's broadcast channels (MTV, VH1, CMT) and also integrated into future versions of Windows Media Player. Flexible song pricing is also expected, which has long been a point of contention between music labels and Steve Jobs.

Chundles

Dec 14, 2005, 07:55 AM

Can't be played on the most popular music player on Earth = waste of time.

rxse7en

Dec 14, 2005, 08:05 AM

MTV has music? I thought they gave that up in the 80s. Now if they offered clips of Martha Quinn gyrating to The Tubes they might be on to something.

KrysBaz

Dec 14, 2005, 08:06 AM

That we won't be getting MTV shows for dowload from the ITMS, or is this just a last dich attempt to get a hook in the dowload business from MTV?

Or are the two arms of MTV going to offer different service to different porviders, I wonder which horse will win??

bwintx

Dec 14, 2005, 08:12 AM

Can't be played on the most popular music player on Earth = waste of time.

Yep, it's amazing to see what can happen when a business decision is powered by under-the-table $$ rather than common sense.

Porchland

Dec 14, 2005, 08:16 AM

Cool, so now I'll be able to download my favorite songs and listen to them on an MP3 player; it's amazing no one thought of it sooner.

shadowmoses

Dec 14, 2005, 08:17 AM

Seems like the Big M$ are trying anything they can to emulate iTunes success with the music store, but as was mentioned earlier if the mu$ic doesnt play on iPods it will flop

Shadow

TheMasin9

Dec 14, 2005, 08:18 AM

danielsan26

Dec 14, 2005, 08:19 AM

Well, we'll get a perfect example of what will happen when things are done EXACTLY how the record companies want it. My personal predictions?

1) MAYBE $0.98 singles for REO Speedwagon and STYX, but if you want the latest Lindsey Lohan toilet scrapings it'll be $4.99 for the single. But you won't care because MTV told you to buy it.

2) Perhaps URGE will run as root, constantly seeking out copyright violations. Don't think of it as a security nightmare, think of it as guaranteed job security. Hey, if things run TOO smoothly we all know what happens to the techie.....Besides, MTV runs as root in most teenie-boppers' brains, why shouldn't it have the same authority in their computers? System resources? that's flabber-gabber! (to quote travelocity)

3) Maybe you'll be able to buy a subscription AND your music! That way, you'll get all the joys of music ownership along with the sense of belonging to something bigger than yourself! Except once you disassociate yourself from that something perhaps your music won't play anymore.....If you're really nice they'll probably let you pay per play as well! They do it with radio why not here??? Oh wait....except its backwards.....:rolleyes:

All told, it'll be interesting to see how many broke teenagers with a habit p2p networks can't satisfy will give up their valuable addiction money (Notice that no drug dealers have a "subscription based" plan...maybe they know something Napster doesn't...:cool:) in order to legitimately digest MTV's regurgitations.

Anybody have anything to add to the list?

iMeowbot

Dec 14, 2005, 08:30 AM

That we won't be getting MTV shows for dowload from the ITMS, or is this just a last dich attempt to get a hook in the dowload business from MTV?
It's hard to say. Urge isn't supposed to be quite a straightforward download service, but more of an interactive community type of thing tied into the TV networks. Their plan seems to be to avoid competing with the iTMS/iPod by wandering off into a different direction. IOW, MySpace is more of a target than Apple.

xnu

Dec 14, 2005, 08:32 AM

Sing along..... "iTunes killed the Video Channel..." History repeats itself and where are The Buggles?

CrazyWingman

Dec 14, 2005, 08:32 AM

Anybody have anything to add to the list?

Yes, forced watching of advertisements. Login, watch ad, switch genres, watch ad, find artist, watch ad, buy album, watch ads until downloads complete, play song, find 5 seconds of ad as first bit of the track. :p

Maybe I've gone a bit overboard, but I have no doubt that there will be [modal] ads, and they will not have skip buttons.

kenzbud

Dec 14, 2005, 08:34 AM

Chundles

Dec 14, 2005, 08:38 AM

when is microsoft going to realize that apple beat them to something (besides the first consumer computer, and gui,......). Why cant they just come to thier senses(if they have any) and let the ipod roll, hey at least steve made it compatable with windoze. and one question, cant you convert wma into mp3 somehow if not via itunes itself?

iTunes will do it but only on PC's and only if they aren't DRM'd. I reckon with MTV and MS involved these things will be DRM'd to the hilt.

Sorry guys, I don't know or have seen anybody using an mp3 player other than an iPod since about 2001 when a mate of mine had a 32MB Rio. They're going to need to make other players seem more attractive than an iPod to succeed and so long as manufacturers continue to focus on more useless features and clunky interfaces/designs over ease of use and overall experience there is no chance of this happening.

Trust me, I want to see a portable music player that will really challenge the iPod's dominance just to make sure Apple keeps on it's toes but I don't see it happening yet.

Kelmon

Dec 14, 2005, 08:41 AM

I can see the point of this for non-iPod MP3 players but beyond this the news has no relevance to anyone else. To be honest, I'd be quite happy if no one mentioned the subject since Microsoft and MTV should be quite embarrassed at this announcement. It's unlikely to offer more than iTunes and lots of marketing is unlikely to sway the public who has already voted with their wallets.

Move along, there's nothing to see here...

rosalindavenue

Dec 14, 2005, 08:49 AM

Wow-- once again, Microsoft is belatedly trying to do something it should have done in 2002, and promising that it will happen in 2006. Just like their operating system. And as for MTV? Please. Maybe they will offer podcasts (or WMA-casts, I suppose) of the Jessica and Nick divorce proceedings, or of roommate arguments from "Real World XXIV, Des Moines." This one will flop like a dead fish on concrete.

snkTab

Dec 14, 2005, 08:49 AM

As expected. MTV is 'THE' sellout company.

macFanDave

Dec 14, 2005, 08:51 AM

As I read this story, I seem to be hearing, "Duh, duh, duh, Another One Bites the Dust. . .and another one gone, and another one gone, another one bites the dust."

It turns out it was all in my psychically-gifted head!

mkrishnan

Dec 14, 2005, 08:51 AM

Yeah, music seems like a really strange new market for MTV to stretch out into. I wonder what they're thinking. :D

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 08:53 AM

I wonder if it will be DRM'd... or rootkited.

angelwatt

Dec 14, 2005, 09:01 AM

MTV has music? I thought they gave that up in the 80s. Now if they offered clips of Martha Quinn gyrating to The Tubes they might be on to something.

Exactly what I was thinking, I haven't seen music on MTV in a good decade. That's why I don't watch it anymore.

devman

Dec 14, 2005, 09:01 AM

Photorun

Dec 14, 2005, 09:02 AM

MTV is about as relevant to music as bicycle to a fish. They're type of "music" is the upper 1% of the (cough cough) "hits" (i.e. Lindsey Lowhore, Anvil Latrine, Jessica Spears, and other talentless spoiled rich b*tch from good homes) and basically whichever big sleazy record company threw gobs of dough their way to play their craptacular music aimed straignt at 12-17 year old girls... which, that's their demographic. Not REAL music listeners or aficionados. This music service is aimed at a clueless segment by a even less clueless not-even-relevant anymore horrid cable channel and a big bully crybaby devoid of creativity and good coding.

Move along, nothing to see here.

hkhaskell

Dec 14, 2005, 09:14 AM

I'm a product of the 80's so I remember when MTV used to play rock videos. :eek: After years of producing really bad television, they have finally completely lost their minds. Now THIS is going to be entertaining!

Microsoft is hoping to get market share by borrowing some of MTV's coolness. The problem is that MTV hasn't been cool for a long time. Microsoft is already every bit as cool as MTV. :D

Can't wait to see how this goes down!

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 09:15 AM

Macs won't be able to use it. Oh well.

Can't be played on the most popular music player on Earth = waste of time.

You can blame that on Apple, of course, most people *here* won't.

Spock

Dec 14, 2005, 09:17 AM

Mtv better be carefull the way Microsoft does things they may become MicrosoftTV

EssentialParado

Dec 14, 2005, 09:17 AM

freeny

Dec 14, 2005, 09:23 AM

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 09:26 AM

You can burn WMA's onto CD and then rip the tracks from the CD to remove the DRM. Same as iTunes songs.

I just wish they'd remove the DRM altogether on iTunes. And boost it to 192. Then i'd be happy.

Actually, seeing as I'm making wishes, more dance music too. The problem with burning and re-ripping the DRMed music via CD, is that AAC and WMA are lossy codecs. You are already missing data from the songs. Now you burn them to CD and then re-rip them into another lossy format. Congratulations you now have 2x worse quality music. A comparision I can give you is recording a show onto VHS, and then dubbing the tape. You get all the artifacts from the original recording, plus more artifacts on the dub. The worst of both worlds. If you want to decrypt the DRM without screwing up the original audio stream (which is illegal and against the EULA you agreed to with the Apple Music Store) Then you can try a program called jHymn that retrieves the protection key from the music store for you and unlocks the file. I will not post any links here, because this is questionable ethics. I am however in support of fair use. And the terms on iTunes music store are clearly against fair use rights.

Super Dave

Dec 14, 2005, 09:28 AM

Macs won't be able to use it. Oh well.

You can blame that on Apple, of course, most people *here* won't.

While you're entirely correct that it is Apple's fault, I doubt Microsoft licenses WMA for free. Why would Apple ad cost to the iPod when no one seems to care?

I mean, yes it's their fault. But is there anything wrong with making the iPod $1 (arbitrary value chosen here) cheaper rather than adding a feature only rival executives are asking for? Personally I assume they pocket that extra dollar rather than passing on the savings to us, but good on them as far as I'm concerned.

David :cool:

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 09:31 AM

I would have been concerned for apple except for the fact that these are in .wmv format. .wmv=crap and cant play on the pod. Being an ex-employee of MTV Networks I would have given them a little more credit. They have some smart people working there and this .wmv decision really puts a dink in thier reputation. There would be nothing wrong with them teaming up with the devil and supporting multiple audio formats. They are a buisness and want to make $$$, but the wmv format is almost as useless as the .rm format when it comes to music. they might as well have only offered 8 track versions.
So a file format is crap if it can't play on your iPod? What kind of logic is this? They are working with Microsoft on this... Of course it will be an MS only format. Can you play .mov files on Windows media player? Not without a third party hack. The Mac world has a similar third party plugin to allow playback of .wmv files. It's called flip4mac. There are also programs that can re-encode the wmv file into the format of your choice. (mpeg, mpeg4, or mov to be fully compatable with the iPod.)

Anyway, calling a format crap because it can't be viewed with the hardware of your choice is not logical. my sony PSP can't play .mov files. Do I call .mov crap? No.

~Shard~

Dec 14, 2005, 09:37 AM

I own a Corvette Z06, and you're telling me there's a new Cobalt coming out? Big deal... :p :cool:

It will be interesting to see how well this store does, but I will truly be surprised if they become a legitimate threat to Apple. But, as with anything else, competition is a good thing - bring 'em on!

DavidLeblond

Dec 14, 2005, 09:39 AM

That we won't be getting MTV shows for dowload from the ITMS, or is this just a last dich attempt to get a hook in the dowload business from MTV?

MTV shows? Like The Real World? I tell you what, buy me an iSight and I'll record myself getting drunk and yelling at someone and I'll give you the clip for free. ;)

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 09:41 AM

MTV shows? Like The Real World? I tell you what, buy me an iSight and I'll record myself getting drunk and yelling at someone and I'll give you the clip for free. ;)

Ah, so your going to make a Rap song then! :-)

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 09:46 AM

While you're entirely correct that it is Apple's fault, I doubt Microsoft licenses WMA for free. Why would Apple ad cost to the iPod when no one seems to care?

I mean, yes it's their fault. But is there anything wrong with making the iPod $1 (arbitrary value chosen here) cheaper rather than adding a feature only rival executives are asking for? Personally I assume they pocket that extra dollar rather than passing on the savings to us, but good on them as far as I'm concerned.

David :cool:

Absolutely, couldn't say better myself.

When it comes to the cost of wma license fee - I wonder how much getting wma on to iPod would be to microsoft:

Would they offer it to apple for free in a multiple year deal?

( is wma on iPod that much of a prize to microsoft )

freeny

Dec 14, 2005, 09:48 AM

So a file format is crap if it can't play on your iPod? What kind of logic is this? They are working with Microsoft on this... Of course it will be an MS only format. Can you play .mov files on Windows media player? Not without a third party hack. The Mac world has a similar third party plugin to allow playback of .wmv files. It's called flip4mac. There are also programs that can re-encode the wmv file into the format of your choice. (mpeg, mpeg4, or mov to be fully compatable with the iPod.)

Anyway, calling a format crap because it can't be viewed with the hardware of your choice is not logical. my sony PSP can't play .mov files. Do I call .mov crap? No.
Why YES! It is crap. WMV player pauses and gets choppy and is sloooow whenever you try to fast forward or reverse. You cant pick a specific time spot in anything like you can in Quicktime, It only support wmv format, you cant edit and the interface is horrible. And why would you buy music from one place that you need to buy a third party plugin to re-encode, then convert all the while losing quality for $2 a pop when you can just get it for a dollar and it plays??? Its so obvious that Microsoft is hoping that some of the MTV "cool" rubs off on them like one of the previous posters had said. And thanks for the "news alert" on the Flip4mac app Mr Cronkite. Better get the word out!!

winjer2k

Dec 14, 2005, 09:56 AM

This news is pretty ironic. Remember when that MTV VJ (I think his name was Lou or something, a big, round, bald guy) hosted a show dedicated to how cool iTunes was? It was on Apple's site back then and they showed it on MTV, IIRC.

jrogers

Dec 14, 2005, 09:58 AM

I think this announcement makes perfect sense? MTV is on a downward spiral and wants to appeal to a new market? I for one do not care to see the latest "rapper" and half naked women being yelled at and told to shake there "money maker" 7 ways to Sunday. And Microsoft can't seem to get an OS right without .72 revisions, so the two are made for one another.

However, I doubt the demographics MTV is trying to reach with this is attainable... They're not the one's buying Ipods anyhow!:eek:

BRLawyer

Dec 14, 2005, 10:00 AM

Microsoft is CRAP, MTV is crap...the most amazing thing will be seeing young morons spending their dollars on horrible clips and songs...MTV was fairly good in its early days...then it succumbed to commercial labels. Moving right along...

shen

Dec 14, 2005, 10:10 AM

it probably took MS this long to figure out how to build the store.....

will they sell audio tracks of their pointlessly bad shows? i don't seem to recall MTV playing music in the last decade or so....

nagromme

Dec 14, 2005, 10:11 AM

Sounds like this is the MTV music store, not MTV-and-Microsoft (and not the first music store to use Microsoft's help).

They announced intentions in 2003... and still having nothing? Not until 2006?

The irony would be if they have already spent the money on a big campaign about how subscriptions are better than iTunes, ready to run the ads in mid-Jan. Not knowing that Apple is about to add a subscription option to iTMS just days before.... :D (I know renting music is not for most people--me included--but Apple still might add the option someday.)

As for Apple supporting WMA... no. Apple has no reason to HELP Microsoft exploit their monopoly! Maybe someday it will make sense to do so, but with the iPod and iTMS already successful, I doubt that time is now.

alandail

Dec 14, 2005, 10:14 AM

So a file format is crap if it can't play on your iPod? What kind of logic is this? They are working with Microsoft on this... Of course it will be an MS only format. Can you play .mov files on Windows media player? Not without a third party hack. The Mac world has a similar third party plugin to allow playback of .wmv files. It's called flip4mac. There are also programs that can re-encode the wmv file into the format of your choice. (mpeg, mpeg4, or mov to be fully compatable with the iPod.)

Anyway, calling a format crap because it can't be viewed with the hardware of your choice is not logical. my sony PSP can't play .mov files. Do I call .mov crap? No.

No, but you can play a .mov file on windows using quicktime for windows. People have to jump through hoops to get protected .wma files to even play on a mac (and can't burn the files to CD) and it gets even worse with protected .wmv files because MS doesn't really support windows media player on the mac.

MTV/Microsoft has three problems here.

#1 - the iPod dominates the market for mp3 players. If they don't support the iPod, they aren't going to sell a lot of music. And the iPod has already reached the critical mass that makes other players irrelevant, especially in MTV's target market. And apple has reached the economies of scale long enjoyed by PC companies that make it impossible for competing players to compete on price.
#2 - even if they offered something compatible with the iPod, they have to also offer a compelling reason for people to not use the built in iTunes music store to buy their music.
#3 - incompatibility with the mac is going to become increasingly more of a problem as Apple's market share is growing, especially in MTV's target audience.

Chris Marsden

Dec 14, 2005, 10:15 AM

My first gut instinct was to post what so many others have posted. Why would anyone bother when 74%+ is already tied up in a more popular digital music player. Better is not really the issue here since that is just a word that has no relevence when it comes to business success. (Beta was better; FireWire is better, but dropped from the iPod). Popular seems to be the real issue when it comes to success.

So why would anyone compete against the company who has all the popularity? As Mac users, this question should scare the crap out of us. What if Steve Jobs wakes up one day and realizes that with only 4% or 5% market share in his computers he would be smart not competeing as the underdog when he rules in digital music. All that money in computer development could go to marketing and development of the next generation of music player. He's got 74% market share there, so why not. That would be smart.

Let's be glad that the guys with the money are stupid enough to develop seemingly dead markets. If they weren't, there would be no more Apple computers and we'd wouldn't have Mac Rumors, we'd have iPodrumors.com. Oh how exciting life would be. I would have to switch to linux or something.

Thank you Steve Jobs for being too stupid to realize that competing when you only have 4% is a bad idea. Thank you for continuing to make great products even though your fans seem to think that developing a market when a competitor has such a huge lead on you is a bad idea. If it is a bad idea for microsoft to jump in and compete against ITMS, then it is a bad idea for Apple to continue to try and compete against Microsoft based systems. They have a bigger lead on Mac then iPod's have on everything else. Remember, the issue is popularity. Better only wins if it is also popular, if it is just better, then people can admire it from afar and miss it when it is gone, but it still didn't win (or survive).

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 10:18 AM

They cannot support the iPod, no matter how much they want to.

#1 - the iPod dominates the market for mp3 players. If they don't support the iPod, they aren't going to sell a lot of music. And the iPod has already reached the critical mass that makes other players irrelevant, especially in MTV's target market. And apple has reached the economies of scale long enjoyed by PC companies that make it impossible for competing players to compete on price.

alandail

Dec 14, 2005, 10:20 AM

They cannot support the iPod, no matter how much they want to.

they can if they do away with the pointless DRM. They also could if they demanded it of microsoft. We won't use your stuff until you bring windows media player for the mac to full parity with the windows version and you enhance windows media player so it supports the ipod.

Make no mistake about it, MS could support the iPod with windows media player if they wanted to. They could convert their files to AAC and copy them to the iPod. They don't do this because they still think they can knock the iPod off.

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 10:21 AM

they can if they do away with the pointless DRM.

Yeah right.. and how do you expect they will please the record companies without DRM?

Record companies would never sanction this.( i know there are one or two other on line stores that offer un-drm'ed music - but are they still going? ( not counting that russian site ) )

alandail

Dec 14, 2005, 10:27 AM

Yeah right.. and how do you expect they will please the record companies without DRM?

Record companies would never sanction this.( i know there are one or two other on line stores that offer un-drm'ed music - but are they still going? ( not counting that russian site ) )

go back and see my edited post.

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 10:37 AM

Why YES! It is crap. WMV player pauses and gets choppy and is sloooow whenever you try to fast forward or reverse. You cant pick a specific time spot in anything like you can in Quicktime, It only support wmv format, you cant edit and the interface is horrible. And why would you buy music from one place that you need to buy a third party plugin to re-encode, then convert all the while losing quality for $2 a pop when you can just get it for a dollar and it plays??? Its so obvious that Microsoft is hoping that some of the MTV "cool" rubs off on them like one of the previous posters had said. And thanks for the "news alert" on the Flip4mac app Mr Cronkite. Better get the word out!! Psssst. You CAN fast forward and rewind WMV just as fast as any format. You CAN pick a specific time spot in the file to jump to, and you CAN edit it (sans DRM). The user interface is personal preference, and WMP11 has almost an identical interface compaired to QuickTime. This was obviously stolen by Microsoft because they are a big evil corporation that designs incompatable file formats to specifically piss you off. There are plenty of freeware programs out there that can recode all kinds of video streams. These are all null and void though assuming DRM is involved. Basically, your personal opinion is just that, and stating that WMV = crap is not a fair critique. A head to head checklist of it's features versus other media formats would have been more suitable. At least then you would have facts to go on, rather then your opinion. As for Flip4Mac, I was simply trying to state that there are ways to play "the enemy's" media formats on your favorite media player. Your sarcasim was appreciated though. :p

~Shard~

Dec 14, 2005, 10:39 AM

They announced intentions in 2003... and still having nothing? Not until 2006?

That reminds me of something else.... oh yeah, Vista... :cool:

revjay

Dec 14, 2005, 10:41 AM

Can't be played on the most popular music player on Earth = waste of time.
Too bad, though...some competition for itms would do wonders (at keeping the prices down).

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 10:43 AM

No, but you can play a .mov file on windows using quicktime for windows. People have to jump through hoops to get protected .wma files to even play on a mac (and can't burn the files to CD) and it gets even worse with protected .wmv files because MS doesn't really support windows media player on the mac.

MTV/Microsoft has three problems here.

Yes and QT for Windows is slow and bloated, probably just like WMP is on the Mac. You can play protected media files for windows on WMP for the Mac. Just not very well. You can't blame Microsoft, Apple does the same thing, only allowing protected media files to be played on iTunes/QuickTime. Only allowing protected Windows Media files to play on WMP is just as reasonable.

#1 - the iPod dominates the market for mp3 players. If they don't support the iPod, they aren't going to sell a lot of music. And the iPod has already reached the critical mass that makes other players irrelevant, especially in MTV's target market. And apple has reached the economies of scale long enjoyed by PC companies that make it impossible for competing players to compete on price.
#2 - even if they offered something compatible with the iPod, they have to also offer a compelling reason for people to not use the built in iTunes music store to buy their music.
#3 - incompatibility with the mac is going to become increasingly more of a problem as Apple's market share is growing, especially in MTV's target audience.

#1 - Agree
#2 - Umm, no DRM would be quite compelling, but that would never happen thanks to the RIAA/MPAA idiots. DRM will come back to haunt them, and I will laugh.
#3 - Agree. I think that they should have used a universal file format, but this is Microsoft, and they still have the mentality of crushing the opponent with propritary formats. A mentality that will hurt their bottom line IMO.

corywoolf

Dec 14, 2005, 10:44 AM

Awesome, now I will never have to see a laguna beach add on apple's music store! I bet they will be giving lots of songs away on that trl show and not reporting on the latest ipods like they used to. I haven't seen that show for about 9 months. Every now and then I will flip through and actually see music videos playing on mtv, but then I am disappointed after the screaming fans take over half the screen and I realize they only play teeny bopper music (most of the time I have seen it). It is a great idea as far as a tv show for the youth and the mtv/microsoft music store will definitely be tied into the xbox 360 at some point.

alep85

Dec 14, 2005, 10:46 AM

*Yawn*, will fail like every other lame ass WMA Music Store. Even Yahoo's great subscription priced service (isn't it like 5 bucks a month?) hasn't done well, so I don't see this one going anywhere either.

itsa

Dec 14, 2005, 10:48 AM

The MTV viewer is not the type to just stop stealing their music to jump on the goodie2shoes banwagon. Most of them wont do it now with iTunes. What makes anyone think they will when the one song MTV tells them to buy is way over priced?... but then again... if they are MTV viewers... their not all there anyway... They just may be on to something.

BRAIN CANT THINK....PLEASE THINK FOR ME MTV

ioinc

Dec 14, 2005, 10:48 AM

when is microsoft going to realize that apple beat them to something (besides the first consumer computer, and gui,......). Why cant they just come to thier senses(if they have any) and let the ipod roll, hey at least steve made it compatable with windoze. and one question, cant you convert wma into mp3 somehow if not via itunes itself?

Don't fool yourself, M$ is fully aware of the fact that Apple beat them to this market and now dominates (just like they did with the Mac in the late 80's)

Don't underestimate the amount of money M$ can put behind a venture like this.

Make it default on windows, make it cheap (even if it is a short term loss to M$), all they have to do is keep there foot in the door and chip away.

The race is not to the swift. Deep pockets at M$ may prevail in the long run.

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 10:51 AM

That reminds me of something else.... oh yeah, Vista... :cool: Don't laugh, it took Apple 10 years to get NexT the way they wanted it. And plenty of garbage OSes before they unvailed OS X. Perfection takes time. :p

BornAgainMac

Dec 14, 2005, 10:51 AM

Yea, take out the DRM. Should just be the honor system and apply to all music stores. RIAA can still try to make sure people don't steal music by monitoring file sharing services like today.

I don't think the Microsoft Media player format has a large enough marketshare for paid songs to exist as a standard. They need to use the mpeg-4 standard like Apple even if it means they have their own Fairplay DRM bolted on.

Thanatoast

Dec 14, 2005, 11:01 AM

Questions:

How many WMA-based music are there?

How many have failed?

How many are profitable?

There are still MS-based stores out there. They are still running. Granted, they are not as popular as iTunes, but that doesn't mean there's not money to be made.

Plus, having WMP default to the new MTV Music Store will be a major pull. Remember when MS started defaulting to Explorer for web access?

~Shard~

Dec 14, 2005, 11:04 AM

Don't laugh, it took Apple 10 years to get NexT the way they wanted it. And plenty of garbage OSes before they unvailed OS X. Perfection takes time. :p

I don't mind waiting for perfection. Vista, on the other hand... :p :cool:

strange days

Dec 14, 2005, 11:08 AM

bad for apple shares today, maybe better later, when it fails miserably... :D

boombashi

Dec 14, 2005, 11:10 AM

Don't laugh, it took Apple 10 years to get NexT the way they wanted it. And plenty of garbage OSes before they unvailed OS X. Perfection takes time. :p

I hope you aren't implying that Vista will be perfection, I will give it a thourough testing once it's released to the public, but from what I've seen and read, it's far from perfection. Sounds more like a cluster bleep if you ask me. I assume you were talking more about OS X Tiger which is getting much closer to perfection, and 10.5 should be coming out around the time of Vista.

alandail

Dec 14, 2005, 11:11 AM

Don't fool yourself, M$ is fully aware of the fact that Apple beat them to this market and now dominates (just like they did with the Mac in the late 80's)

Mac never dominated the market. I don't think the mac ever even had 50% of the PC market. The iPod does dominate the mp3 market and shows no signs at all of losing market share. Steve has been very aggressive at growing market share with the iPod. MS is trying to fight the iPod and the iTunes music store at the same time. They would have better success to concede the iPod won that battle, embrace the iPod with their software, and fight the iTunes music store.

obeygiant

Dec 14, 2005, 11:16 AM

i just hate mtv. i'm hex-ing them right now...

fail.....fail......fail....

sconnor99

Dec 14, 2005, 11:17 AM

Gates paints a picture of Microsoft as innovators, but all they do is try and muscle on other companies innovations. They are much too far behind to catch up, and by the time they do Uncle Steve will have given the world something new and exciting to play with.

As far as MTV goes, they are dropping market share rapidly and are irrelevant to most music buyers out there, unless you're a Jessica Simpson fan of course.

~Shard~

Dec 14, 2005, 11:20 AM

bad for apple shares today, maybe better later, when it fails miserably... :D

Looks like a good day to buy AAPL... :cool:

Bonte

Dec 14, 2005, 11:26 AM

I just wish they'd remove the DRM altogether on iTunes.

FairPlay is very broad and allows everybody to basically do what they want except exchanging the music. If there isn't any DRM but just a watermark the risk of getting some of your music in the wild is very big (give some songs to the nephew or lose an iPod ...) but with the watermark those pesky lawyers will track them down to you. The DRM practically saves your life. :)

balamw

Dec 14, 2005, 11:26 AM

Make no mistake about it, MS could support the iPod with windows media player if they wanted to. They could convert their files to AAC and copy them to the iPod. They don't do this because they still think they can knock the iPod off.
Exactly what Real/Rhapsody did with their "Harmony" technology. For purchased tracks, wrap AAC in their own DRM, which gets translated to FairPlay compatble DRM when transferred to an iPod or transcoded to WMA for a non-iPod.

Note that they still don't offer an iPod solution for subscription tracks, though these work on "plays for sure" players.

B

thedude110

Dec 14, 2005, 11:34 AM

MTV is about as relevant to music as bicycle to a fish.

I think that's missing the point. Does the iPod owe its success to music or to pop-culture? While the answer is obviously both, don't overlook the impact of "trendyness" on the iPod's success.

MTV carries a lot of cultural cache, and MS has a lot of cash. This music service, once it arrives, isn't going to go away. And when the 14-25 year olds find out their iPods won't play the songs they get from MTV, and when the cast of Laguna Beach starts using iRivers, and the cast of the Real World starts using iRivers, and when cars get "Pimped" with iRivers ... you can see where this is going, short term, but more worrying, long term. MTV provides MS with a visible way to undercut the "trend" that is the iPod.

Sorry, Shard. Get out of AAPL while you can!

joemama

Dec 14, 2005, 11:40 AM

Yes, my initial reaction was "not a chance," but let's not forget one thing here - market share. As much as all of us love Apple, we are only 4-5% of the market. Yes, young people can download iTunes and install it on their PC's, but what about those not computer savy? What do you think they will use when Urge is bundled with Windows in the future?

Does anyone remember NETSCAPE?!?!?! They had like 95% of the market until Microsoft bundled Explorer with windows, and now they are relatively extinct.

Apple needs to pressure the U.S. Dept. of Justice to force MS to bundle iTunes with any new version of Windows or Apple will infact be in trouble.

alandail

Dec 14, 2005, 11:47 AM

I think that's missing the point. Does the iPod owe its success to music or to pop-culture? While the answer is obviously both, don't overlook the impact of "trendyness" on the iPod's success.

MTV carries a lot of cultural cache, and MS has a lot of cash. This music service, once it arrives, isn't going to go away. And when the 14-25 year olds find out their iPods won't play the songs they get from MTV, and when the cast of Laguna Beach starts using iRivers, and the cast of the Real World starts using iRivers, and when cars get "Pimped" with iRivers ... you can see where this is going, short term, but more worrying, long term. MTV provides MS with a visible way to undercut the "trend" that is the iPod.

Sorry, Shard. Get out of AAPL while you can!

or the cast of MTV's shows won't look cool because they don't have iPods.

thedude110

Dec 14, 2005, 11:49 AM

or the cast of MTV's shows won't look cool because they don't have iPods.

For better or for worse, MTV manufactures cool.

Peace

Dec 14, 2005, 11:57 AM

Bonte

Dec 14, 2005, 11:58 AM

And when the 14-25 year olds find out their iPods won't play the songs they get from MTV, and when the cast of Laguna Beach starts using iRivers, and the cast of the Real World starts using iRivers, and when cars get "Pimped" with iRivers ...

Don't worry, if wma content is getting to important Apple will make iTunes compatible with wma DRM in the same way Real/Rhapsody makes the iTunes music compatible with there service. Look at podcastig, there is no direct profit for Apple but they sure as hell support it.

BenRoethig

Dec 14, 2005, 12:13 PM

Yeah, Apple has the lions share of the market. We don't need to pay attention to Microsoft and their legion of compatible players since everybody will always buy Apple's product. Strangely, this all seems familiar somehow.

jrogers

Dec 14, 2005, 12:28 PM

Thank you Steve Jobs for being too stupid to realize that competing when you only have 4% is a bad idea.

4% of $20billion is still larger than 74% of 20 million? If Apple wasn't making money with the computers, they wouldn't be in business.

p.s. those dollar amounts are just for fun:D

please take nothing I say here to be the truth just speculating!!!

danielsan26

Dec 14, 2005, 12:31 PM

Ironic that Nissan (http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story.htm) announced today of a new concept call called the "urge" that will include a Microsoft XBOX. I'm getting the urge to vomit over Nissan (http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story.htm) and MTV today.
link to car here (http://news.com.com/2300-11389_3-5994836-1.html?part=rss&tag=5994836&subj=news)

512ke

Dec 14, 2005, 12:33 PM

Do people really watch MTV? The kids I know K - 8 say they don't watch it. Maybe that's just what they say (and not what they do), but...

Putting MTV in Windows Media Player isn't going to make it popular.

What Microsoft has gotta be dreaming about doing is this: preventing iTunes from working on Windows. MS's next OS will probably keep iTunes from working properly or from using copyright protection correctly.

That's just one guy's uneducated prediction.

MS doesn't win by being the best. They win by bullying and forcing you to use their stuff.

I don't think they can do it, however.

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 12:46 PM

I hope you aren't implying that Vista will be perfection, I will give it a thourough testing once it's released to the public, but from what I've seen and read, it's far from perfection. Sounds more like a cluster bleep if you ask me. I assume you were talking more about OS X Tiger which is getting much closer to perfection, and 10.5 should be coming out around the time of Vista.
Well granted it won't be as refined as OS X, or UNIX based. But Vista is taking leaps and bounds in the right direction. OS X is obviously still the champion of all OSes.

Let's just say that the jokes about Windows being unstable and unusable are getting outdated fast.

P.S. The Xbox 360 is a perfectly good gaming system. Just thought I'd throw that in for all of the Microsoft haters out there.

Caiwyn

Dec 14, 2005, 12:46 PM

Let me get this straight.

They're rolling out their "flexible pricing" model on MTV's music store, pushing higher-priced songs at the very demographic that is likely to want those songs. Except those consumers can buy them cheaper on iTunes.

Maybe I'm overestimating MTV's viewership, but it sounds to me like Viacom is banking an awful lot on the stupidity of its target audience. Even if you ignore the fact that their store isn't iPod-compatible, I smell a disaster waiting to happen.

They could generate demand for the flexible pricing model by aiming it, to start with, at the indie scenesters where the target demographic will want the lower-priced material, and then ramping it up for other stores, which would create pressure on iTunes. But the MTV brand just isn't going to sell this.

Peace

Dec 14, 2005, 12:52 PM

The music industry has bullied MTV and MS to do this in hopes it will leverage them against iTunes and Apple's insistence on keeping a song for $.99.

wjdennen

Dec 14, 2005, 12:57 PM

Can't be played on the most popular music player on Earth = waste of time.

Would you say the same thing about BBedit? OmniGraffle? iPhoto? iDVD? They won't run on the most popular OS on Earth.

twoodcc

Dec 14, 2005, 01:01 PM

Would you say the same thing about BBedit? OmniGraffle? iPhoto? iDVD? They won't run on the most popular OS on Earth.

but the difference is, the most popular OS on earth is crap. the most popular mp3 player is not. i could explain more, but what's the point?

thedude110

Dec 14, 2005, 01:05 PM

I'm getting the urge to vomit over Nissan (http://www.ncchelp.org/The_Story/the_story.htm) and MTV today.

Where's iGary when you need him? :D

winmacguy

Dec 14, 2005, 01:15 PM

If it is a bad idea for microsoft to jump in and compete against ITMS, then it is a bad idea for Apple to continue to try and compete against Microsoft based systems. They have a bigger lead on Mac then iPod's have on everything else. Remember, the issue is popularity. Better only wins if it is also popular, if it is just better, then people can admire it from afar and miss it when it is gone, but it still didn't win (or survive).
Microsoft has the money to loose in order to 'buy' the market so they may as well spend some of it.;)

p0intblank

Dec 14, 2005, 02:06 PM

Sorry, MTV and Microsoft... you both are WAY too late into the game. Apple already owns this market. And the fact that the songs will NOT play on the iPod... well, let's just leave it at that. ;)

The only reason this will probably do moderately well is because it's the MTV name. Teens will see that and instantly think "oh, cool!" But again, no iPod support = low sales, at least when compared to the iTunes.

beatle888

Dec 14, 2005, 02:33 PM

Macs won't be able to use it. Oh well.

You can blame that on Apple, of course, most people *here* won't.

why should we BLAME apple?

its their device and they made software to go with it. if they want us to use a specific format then why not?

if you dont like it buy something else. im tired of others trying to tell creatives how to create. do it yourself if you dont like it. jeeze why should apple open up the ipod to allow every greedy company out there to make money off of THEIR creation.

TwitchOSX

Dec 14, 2005, 02:42 PM

Only good thing about MTV is Viva la Bam. Other than that, they can suck it. Oh.. and MTV2 has Wildboys..

mynameisjesse

Dec 14, 2005, 02:53 PM

Peace

Dec 14, 2005, 02:54 PM

MTV also owns VH1 and VH1 Classics

1984

Dec 14, 2005, 03:05 PM

MTV has music? I thought they gave that up in the 80s.

I was thinking the same thing. Don't they just air crappy reality shows? Okay, at least VH1 has I Love the 80's and such but still... No music videos. Actually I think they do still show videos... at 3:00AM.

mrsebastian

Dec 14, 2005, 03:11 PM

mtv (microsoft television)?!

freeny

Dec 14, 2005, 04:23 PM

you guys don't seem to understand. itunes isn't that good on windows. when i used to have a pc, i never touched itunes because of how crappy the windows verson was. now, consider most computer owners use windows. also consider most young kids who own a pc watch mtv. this should be a good competition to apple, and if you think otherwise you're just fooling yourself. i hate mtv/ms as much as the next person, but to think they don't have a chance over a company with such a small market share? and to think just because its .wma it will flop? what happens when windows comes with this 'urge' program? for now, people buy ipods because of how it works with itunes(even though most windows users would rather get another brand). so when this happens, expect other mp3 players sales to go up and apple to take a hit. how big this hit will be is anybodies guess.

you know i love apple, and i love coming here, but sometimes you people just can't even think of something competing with apple. it's like nothing has a chance when apple already does it. personally, i hope this urge program comes out good because right now itunes is just doing whatever it wants..it needs to be pushed by someone already.
Im gonna root for the best product. Apple, Microsoft, whatever! Microsoft has been "doing whatever it wants" for years. Apples products are hands down better. Im not going to buy a product from Apple thats crap just because it has an apple logo on it. Personally I have had bad experiences with several Apple products namingly Airport and Safari. Theres nothing wrong with Microsoft bashing because of their buggy products and bad buisness practices especially here on a Mac friendly site:rolleyes: I honestly believe that this MTV/Microsoft music store is nothing to be afraid of due to the format they are going with. If MTV/Microsoft had announced they would support iPod friendly formats I might start to worry for iTunes Music Store. Not supporting mp3 format and only offering wmv is bad for ALL portable players.

Maxiseller

Dec 14, 2005, 04:25 PM

you guys don't seem to understand. itunes isn't that good on windows. when i used to have a pc, i never touched itunes because of how crappy the windows verson was. now, consider most computer owners use windows. also consider most young kids who own a pc watch mtv. this should be a good competition to apple, and if you think otherwise you're just fooling yourself. i hate mtv/ms as much as the next person, but to think they don't have a chance over a company with such a small market share? and to think just because its .wma it will flop? what happens when windows comes with this 'urge' program? for now, people buy ipods because of how it works with itunes(even though most windows users would rather get another brand). so when this happens, expect other mp3 players sales to go up and apple to take a hit. how big this hit will be is anybodies guess.

you know i love apple, and i love coming here, but sometimes you people just can't even think of something competing with apple. it's like nothing has a chance when apple already does it. personally, i hope this urge program comes out good because right now itunes is just doing whatever it wants..it needs to be pushed by someone already.

I actually agree - to a point.

I don't use iTunes on Windows, but I have a couple of times and it does seem a great Jukebox, just a tad sluggish.

I have to say though, I don't often take a trip to the Music Store, but I did earlier while demonstrating to a friend about to get a nano, and I was blown away. The way the video's automatically play when you click a song track in the artwork little window, the way everything is so integrated. You'd actually never know you're on a network.

The problem iTunes has is that Media Player is distributed to every new PC and copy of windows. itunes does not have that facility. People actually have to stick in a CD, or download the thing. I know TONNES of people NOW who use media player as their playback device because they "Can't be bothered" to download iTunes even though they know it is better.

The fact is, the iPod saga has to end some time. It's been amazing for us mac users to watch it baloon, but it can't go on forever in my opinion. This has got to be a very carefully played stratedgy.

Just last year I was saying how the next year was going to be crucial, and how Apple needs to quicken their pace and speed up their game. Luckily this year, albeit at some quality sacrifices, they've done just that. 2006 will be an interesting year indeed.

freeny

Dec 14, 2005, 04:37 PM

Whats Wrong with you people!? I thought this was a Mac site? Only warm fuzzy thoughts about Mac dammit!

Yer all becoming a bunch of Bill Gates lovin' pansies for gods sake!

SNAP OUT OF IT!!!

iMan

Dec 14, 2005, 04:42 PM

Well granted it won't be as refined as OS X, or UNIX based. But Vista is taking leaps and bounds in the right direction. OS X is obviously still the champion of all OSes.

P.S. The Xbox 360 is a perfectly good gaming system. Just thought I'd throw that in for all of the Microsoft haters out there.

Agreed. And with the XBox MS is actually doing what Apple has done all the time with the Mac; they control the box AND the OS, and let's noone in there. Difference is that noone has to pay a license just to write programs for the Mac :) Funny how they always critizised this approach, and once they finally make a nice piece of equipment they use same pilosophy...

As for the MTV thing... It has to be more than yet another music service catering to that 25-30% market... it has to be... or it will flop. I fail to see how this service also is competing with iTunes - they don't even target the same users! I have yet to see anyone with better selection and lower (consistent) prices - allthough the local selection for iTunes Norway is rather limited still... so they better have invented something radical to make this hippo airborne...

Snarry

Dec 14, 2005, 05:17 PM

In all fairness, the early 360s have been crashing just like we have come to expect of MS products! :)

Aside from that, I do agree with the poster who mentioned that MTV can manufacture 'cool'. If all of their shows have people using an audio device other than an iPod and the people on these shows are perceived to be cool, the influence that it will have on sales will be immense. Never underestimate the inability of people to think for themself (especially those in the MTV demographic) and the relative ease that savvy marketers have at controlling what people think and purchase.

I am a loyal Mac and iPod user, but I do not think for a second that the market belongs to Apple and that it is too late for MS to get into the game. An alliance between MS and MTV could be quite detrimental for the iPod and ITMS, especially with the competition to ITMS being built right into future versions of Windows. The iPod dominates the market right now, but I can guarantee that sales of digital music players is only going to continue to increase, and as new options come out, the iPod could quite easily be overtaken by another player that has deep pockets and marketing push behind it. While almost everyone on this board is loyal to Apple, the majority of people are not.

P.S. The Xbox 360 is a perfectly good gaming system. Just thought I'd throw that in for all of the Microsoft haters out there.

3rdpath

Dec 14, 2005, 05:32 PM

Yes, forced watching of advertisements. Login, watch ad, switch genres, watch ad, find artist, watch ad, buy album, watch ads until downloads complete, play song, find 5 seconds of ad as first bit of the track. :p

Maybe I've gone a bit overboard, but I have no doubt that there will be [modal] ads, and they will not have skip buttons.

you're spot on. ads will permeate everything they deliver.

bet on it.

you gotta laugh at 2 companies that have almost entirely missed the wave of new content delivery...only to join into 1 large misdirected venture.

Randall

Dec 14, 2005, 05:33 PM

In all fairness, the early 360s have been crashing just like we have come to expect of MS products! :)
lmao I new somebody would say that. how many units are crashing versus how many work? how many units were damaged during shipping? these are things that you come to expect. I'm sure that you read about all of the constant crashing on slashdot or some other MS-hater zone. Trust me, I own a xbox 360, and it is awesome, and has never crashed, not once. It is PPC based too :D

There is definately something to be said about designing your own hardware and software in-house. Seemless integration is very important to an OSes stability. :cool:

thirdwaver

Dec 14, 2005, 06:18 PM

As bad as MTV is.It still holds the minds of a LOT of the young crowd..Those MTV drones will simply buy a MP3 player that plays wma files to listen to the drunk teenie boppers "sing".

They will be successful to the point that MTV is successful..

Totally disagree. Just look around. Who's wearing those distinguishing white earbuds? Young and old alike. And while I can't say that young people started the trend, iPods made Christmas lists very quickly after their release. Want to be really unpopular with your kid? Buy him/her a Creative MP3 player for Christmas this year. He/she will be *real* popular at school with that. Kids know and drive the market. That's why this young crowd is studied carefully for buying trends.

What worries me is that this mentality also works against a company. This group is the first group to abandon a product when it gets too popular. Being different is what they're all about. Even if it means suffering loss of features or *gulp* piercings in places that should never be pierced. This hasn't happened to the iPod yet (partly, I believe, due to Apple's overall underdog status which lends itself to being a rebellious company).

Just once, it would be nice, however, to see Microsoft just give in and support something Apple does. I know. Keep dreaming.

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 10:46 PM

FACT:
* Effective Competition is Good ( stop the market leader from resting on its laurels )
* Consumer choice is good.

Apple limits of both these, if you buy an iPod and want to buy music from on line stores other than iTMS.

I have an iPod, but want to use other online music stores - and
- want to pick and choose songs, instead of buying an entire album.
- iPod is excellent, I wouldn't want to use anything else.
- don't want to buy full physical CDs with 90% of crap songs, and 10% quality.

( Oh, and please don't say - you can rip the music.. its not a solution, it takes time and you end up with lesser quality ).

I take it that by your statement, below, you don't like consumer choice, because this is what you are implying.

As I've said on many occasions, if this was any other company who had a successful music store instead of Apple, and didn't support the Mac everyone on here would be screaming blue murder because they wouldn't open up their technology. Because its Apple, its OK. How very convinient to have double standards, because this is EXACTLY what is it. Double Standards.

why should we BLAME apple?

its their device and they made software to go with it. if they want us to use a specific format then why not?

if you dont like it buy something else. im tired of others trying to tell creatives how to create. do it yourself if you dont like it. jeeze why should apple open up the ipod to allow every greedy company out there to make money off of THEIR creation.

decksnap

Dec 14, 2005, 11:00 PM

Too bad, though...some competition for itms would do wonders (at keeping the prices down).

I don't see how this would keep the prices down. All the money goes to the same place. (The record companies). Apple makes like a penny off each song. The competition would be fought out in players and formats.

Stella

Dec 14, 2005, 11:54 PM

I don't see how this would keep the prices down. All the money goes to the same place. (The record companies). Apple makes like a penny off each song. The competition would be fought out in players and formats.

Yep, the record companies dictate the royalties. Though some stores may choose to run at a lesser profit margin ( i.e., Walmart ) but at the end of the day there isn't much leeway.

In fact, the record companies could choose which music stores live or die by dictating different royalties. If they get really pissed off with Apple ( for not budging on prices, for example ) they could choose to charge Apple 20% higher royalties than other online music stores.

peterjhill

Dec 15, 2005, 12:07 AM

Doomed to failure...

Is Mtv actually cool for anyone? Anyone who has money to spend on music? I mean, really now... the only thing that Mtv does that is halfway interesting are the movie awards.. that's it... not video awards, not any other music related things they have.

Are people going to go out and buy wma protected portable music players just so they can buy music from Microsoft/mtv?

They only chance they would have, and I would not be surprised if they did it, would be if they would give away music players for "free" like the cell phone companies give away phones. Otherwise they are fscked.

Alex Cutter

Dec 15, 2005, 12:49 AM

In all fairness, the early 360s have been crashing just like we have come to expect of MS products! :)

In all fairness, is the failure rate any worse than the first generation of iMac G5's? If we're being fair and all.

Scottgfx

Dec 15, 2005, 01:59 AM

Macs won't be able to use it. Oh well.

That's what we call a blessing. :)

Scottgfx

Dec 15, 2005, 02:00 AM

In all fairness, is the failure rate any worse than the first generation of iMac G5's? If we're being fair and all.

My first gen G5 is still running... Wanna buy it? I just got my Quad.

Scottgfx

Dec 15, 2005, 02:06 AM

The music industry has bullied MTV and MS to do this in hopes it will leverage them against iTunes and Apple's insistence on keeping a song for $.99.

Does anyone know how much advertising Apple has been doing on Viacom's networks? Should be interesting to see if there are iPod commercials on any of the "MTV Networks" channels in the future. Or if "MTV Networks" will accept any advertising from them.

iMeowbot

Dec 15, 2005, 02:42 AM

Does anyone know how much advertising Apple has been doing on Viacom's networks? Should be interesting to see if there are iPod commercials on any of the "MTV Networks" channels in the future. Or if "MTV Networks" will accept any advertising from them.
Viacom and Apple are on pretty friendly terms, witness Mighty Mouse :) I doubt that will change much, if at all.

Urge, if it works as it's supposed to work, will be more of an interactive TV channel, and portable players aren't really where they are aiming. The ability to grab burnable/portable tracks falls more into the nice-little-extra category, but Viacom aren't even talking about that so much as the community aspect.

iTMS really is a different creature, it's a store and pretty tightly focused on that. iMix might pass for semi-interactive, and they've added reviews, but still it's not really a social destination.

One drawback of iTunes as it's currently implemented it that it really doesn't integrate seamlessly with the Web. It bumps you off into its own separate little program. That's not a good model for a site that wants to keep your eyes glued to the screen.

devman

Dec 15, 2005, 02:43 AM

Don't fool yourself, M$ is fully aware of the fact that Apple beat them to this market and now dominates (just like they did with the Mac in the late 80's)

Don't underestimate the amount of money M$ can put behind a venture like this.

Make it default on windows, make it cheap (even if it is a short term loss to M$), all they have to do is keep there foot in the door and chip away.

The race is not to the swift. Deep pockets at M$ may prevail in the long run.

Good points. MS has very, very deep pockets. They have tens of billions in cash. Others in this thread have talked about how the iPod has economies of scale that prevent others from competing on price. Well, MS has enough money to, if they choose to, loss lead for a very long time on competitive playback devices until they kill off their competitive target.

They've done this before.

Whether antistrust lets them get away with this is something else...

devman

Dec 15, 2005, 02:46 AM

FACT:
* Effective Competition is Good ( stop the market leader from resting on its laurels )
* Consumer choice is good.

Apple limits of both these, if you buy an iPod and want to buy music from on line stores other than iTMS.

I have an iPod, but want to use other online music stores - and
- want to pick and choose songs, instead of buying an entire album.
- iPod is excellent, I wouldn't want to use anything else.
- don't want to buy full physical CDs with 90% of crap songs, and 10% quality.

( Oh, and please don't say - you can rip the music.. its not a solution, it takes time and you end up with lesser quality ).

I take it that by your statement, below, you don't like consumer choice, because this is what you are implying.

As I've said on many occasions, if this was any other company who had a successful music store instead of Apple, and didn't support the Mac everyone on here would be screaming blue murder because they wouldn't open up their technology. Because its Apple, its OK. How very convinient to have double standards, because this is EXACTLY what is it. Double Standards.

Ok, then I'll go with it being a double standard for a second. And when it comes to MS - I don't care that it is. We are talking about "Probably the most dangerous and powerful industrialist of our age."

Another MS monopoly is the last thing the world needs.

Scottgfx

Dec 15, 2005, 03:40 AM

Viacom and Apple are on pretty friendly terms, witness Mighty Mouse :) I doubt that will change much, if at all.

A letter from Apple Legal from the future:

Dear loyal customer,

Due to circumstances beyond our control, the device that has been marketed and sold as the "Mighty Mouse" will henceforth be sold as "The Terminator Robot". Please use the included black marker to expunge any reference to said "Mighty Mouse". Thank you for your cooperation and attention to this matter.

BenRoethig

Dec 15, 2005, 06:33 AM

Ok, then I'll go with it being a double standard for a second. And when it comes to MS - I don't care that it is. We are talking about "Probably the most dangerous and powerful industrialist of our age."

Another MS monopoly is the last thing the world needs.

Just like the last MS Monopoly, Apple is in the driver's seat here. They can get aggressive or they can just sit on their laurels again completely dismissing the threat Microsoft poses. One thing Steve Jobs has never been good at is competing on a level playing field. Also mind you that the iPod is one of the few without FM Radio Radio or voice recorder functions.

ASP272

Dec 15, 2005, 07:31 AM

If MTV offers up videos of the original Headbanger's Ball from the 80's I might buy a few episodes. As long as they are not in or can be converted from the very crappy Media Player format. M$ is a joke when it comes to media and the ability to play it.

NicP

Dec 15, 2005, 07:59 AM

Macs won't be able to use it. Oh well.

You can blame that on Apple, of course, most people *here* won't.

No you can blame it on the music industry, if they didnt make DRM mandatory then there wouldnt be this problem, music would be downloadable (legally) in mp3 format

In fact the music that i listen to is legally downloadable at sites like beatport.com, smaller labels that arent out to take as much money from people as possible and are actually interested in music are embracing the digital revolution

Stella

Dec 15, 2005, 08:02 AM

Ok, then I'll go with it being a double standard for a second. And when it comes to MS - I don't care that it is. We are talking about "Probably the most dangerous and powerful industrialist of our age."

Another MS monopoly is the last thing the world needs.

If Apple were in ms position, they would be even worse, including controlling the hardware as well as software. You only have to look at iPod and iTMS to see what Apple would be like (amongst MANY other examples). If windows had < 5% marketshare I very much doubt Apple would support windows.

-hh

Dec 15, 2005, 10:44 AM

As for Apple supporting WMA... no. Apple has no reason to HELP Microsoft exploit their monopoly! Maybe someday it will make sense to do so, but with the iPod and iTMS already successful, I doubt that time is now.

What IMO would be interesting is if Apple would (quietly?) include some sort of WMA-to-open-source file conversion plug-in into both iTunes and Quicktime.

If one postulates a network connection, they could conceivably use it to identify DRM'ed WMA's and if they can cross-reference them to the iTMS, offer the consumer a licence transfer...preferably at zero cost, naturally...so as to permit consumers who want to buy WMA's from other sources to eventually accumulate (and thus, more fully migrate) to iTMS.

Such a strategy (even if it wasn't free) would probably make that 75% market share of iPod users happy, and more willing to say with an Apple branded MP3 player...

-hh

Sunrunner

Dec 15, 2005, 10:45 AM

Stella

Dec 15, 2005, 11:12 AM

Im pretty sure Apple already has the "convert from WMA" functionality built into iTunes...
For Windows only.

Sunrunner

Dec 15, 2005, 11:14 AM

For Windows only.

That, of course, figures... :rolleyes:

shen

Dec 15, 2005, 02:38 PM

lmao I new somebody would say that. how many units are crashing versus how many work?

well, i have only seen three so far. they all locked up after 30 min to an hour. it was like a bad joke.....

but if you say so.

Randall

Dec 15, 2005, 02:46 PM

What IMO would be interesting is if Apple would (quietly?) include some sort of WMA-to-open-source file conversion plug-in into both iTunes and Quicktime.

If one postulates a network connection, they could conceivably use it to identify DRM'ed WMA's and if they can cross-reference them to the iTMS, offer the consumer a licence transfer...preferably at zero cost, naturally...so as to permit consumers who want to buy WMA's from other sources to eventually accumulate (and thus, more fully migrate) to iTMS.

Such a strategy (even if it wasn't free) would probably make that 75% market share of iPod users happy, and more willing to say with an Apple branded MP3 player...

-hhI see. So if I buy a 12 pack of Coca-Cola, my local supermarket will let me switch it for a 12 pack of Pepsi, free of charge? That's not really how the world works, and you shouldn't expect this type of strategy from any kind of company ever. Apple giving out free iTMS songs to somebody who purchased those same songs via WMA from Microsoft is slightly insane. Even if it wasn't free... why would people ever pay for the same **** in a different package??

Sunrunner

Dec 15, 2005, 02:46 PM

lmao I new somebody would say that. how many units are crashing versus how many work? how many units were damaged during shipping? these are things that you come to expect. I'm sure that you read about all of the constant crashing on slashdot or some other MS-hater zone. Trust me, I own a xbox 360, and it is awesome, and has never crashed, not once. It is PPC based too :D

There is definately something to be said about designing your own hardware and software in-house. Seemless integration is very important to an OSes stability. :cool:

The 360 is a POS anyway and every electronics professional worth anything knows it. Not only is there the overheating/quality issue, but the system has video quality only marginally beter than the original, and a software library that is aneimic at best. Backwards compatability is also severely limited. Heck, 7 of the 11 games currently avaliable are sports games! Certainly nothing that makes it worthwhile. Those with half an ounce of common sense and patience would to well to wait for the PS3 coming Q1 of '06, which will have true next-gen video quality (reportedly over twice that of the 360) and promises to have an impressive game library combined with FULL backwards compatability.

Sunrunner

Dec 15, 2005, 02:48 PM

Randall

Dec 15, 2005, 02:49 PM

No you can blame it on the music industry, if they didnt make DRM mandatory then there wouldnt be this problem, music would be downloadable (legally) in mp3 format

In fact the music that i listen to is legally downloadable at sites like beatport.com, smaller labels that arent out to take as much money from people as possible and are actually interested in music are embracing the digital revolutionThe RIAA truely does suck. I am hoping that DRM will come back to bite them in the ass someday, because those greedy __insert colorful adjective here__ deserve it.

DRM is not Apple's fault, and it's not Microsoft's fault either. They are being forced to comply with "the man"

-hh

Dec 15, 2005, 04:31 PM

I see. So if I buy a 12 pack of Coca-Cola, my local supermarket will let me switch it for a 12 pack of Pepsi, free of charge? That's not really how the world works, and you shouldn't expect this type of strategy from any kind of company ever. Apple giving out free iTMS songs to somebody who purchased those same songs via WMA from Microsoft is slightly insane. Even if it wasn't free... why would people ever pay for the same **** in a different package??

iTMS is not where Apple makes its money, and since several softdrink companies have used this type of promotion before, perhaps it will work for Apple too.

This is along the lines of what I was thinking too, for we have to remember that Microsoft is trying to get into this game at this point not to make money, but instead, to gain marketshare.

The way that Apple can maintain (or increase) marketshare is by having its device more "open" to receiving content from more places - - ie, MP3's that others have sold.

It then comes down to how much this would cost, versus what the longer term benefits of it will be.

Insofar as to the question of if Apple could offer a "free" (consumer's cost, either real or perceived) DRM'ed MP3 to DRM'ed Fairplay conversion, one thing to keep in mind is that from the perspective of the Record Labels, Mr. Steve can try to make the arguement that the consumer already owns one legal copy, so what is the incremental value of a second copy...or of a "format trade-in" which removes the DRM'ed MP3 from legal circulation. In either circumstance, a good case can be made that the price for this song should be less than $0.99

Furthermore, Mr. Steve can also try selling it to the record labels today as a contemporary experiment that would work towards a long term strategy of getting consumers used to the idea of "swapping in" their libraries - - the consumer's perceived benefit would be newer/better formats (& other "extras") while at the same time being good for the Labels because this could of course include future, more robust DRM schemes as their pay-off.

In the meantime, Apple thrives because they still sell iPods regardless of if the M$TV store is successful or not...and likely increases the consumer penetration of iTMS, as while there will be defections from iTMS to M$TV, there's also going to be some new market additions that are initially brought in by M$TV, but then defect to iTMS. From there, its "May the better *consumer* product win".

-hh

chukronos

Dec 16, 2005, 11:18 AM

MTV carries a lot of cultural cache, and MS has a lot of cash. This music service, once it arrives, isn't going to go away. And when the 14-25 year olds find out their iPods won't play the songs they get from MTV, and when the cast of Laguna Beach starts using iRivers, and the cast of the Real World starts using iRivers, and when cars get "Pimped" with iRivers ... you can see where this is going, short term, but more worrying, long term. MTV provides MS with a visible way to undercut the "trend" that is the iPod.

I agree. I think this is just another ploy by the Record labels to force Apple's hand and get tiered pricing and licensed fairplay. What better opportunity than to get a popular "music" television station to promote the only format that you have control over.

I would be surprised if MTV wasn't getting a larger percentage of the sale price of a song. For no other reason than so record companies could get their way and have their format plastered all over the TV. MTV isn't stupid. They know the iPod is the dominant player out there. There had to be incentive for them to choose this platform.

You won't see anymore reports about the iPod on MTV, except to say how the screen scratches easily and some people had to return them because they froze.
-Chuck

chukronos

Dec 16, 2005, 11:30 AM

you guys don't seem to understand. itunes isn't that good on windows. when i used to have a pc, i never touched itunes because of how crappy the windows verson was. now, consider most computer owners use windows. also consider most young kids who own a pc watch mtv. this should be a good competition to apple, and if you think otherwise you're just fooling yourself. i hate mtv/ms as much as the next person, but to think they don't have a chance over a company with such a small market share? and to think just because its .wma it will flop? what happens when windows comes with this 'urge' program? for now, people buy ipods because of how it works with itunes(even though most windows users would rather get another brand). so when this happens, expect other mp3 players sales to go up and apple to take a hit. how big this hit will be is anybodies guess.

you know i love apple, and i love coming here, but sometimes you people just can't even think of something competing with apple. it's like nothing has a chance when apple already does it. personally, i hope this urge program comes out good because right now itunes is just doing whatever it wants..it needs to be pushed by someone already.

I use itunes on my pc laptop just as easily as I do on my wife's ibook. I don't really notice much difference. It does take longer to load on my laptop. But, I don't get into iTunes a much as others. I just use it to download and listen to my music, listen to the radio stations, Burn and rip cd's, and download the latest episode of lost if my signal goes out during a storm.

MTV has a pretty good chance. They can control what they report about and what is seen in their shows. I am sure they will have an impact. I hate the record companies, so I won't be happy about the impact.
-Chuck

chukronos

Dec 16, 2005, 11:35 AM

Too bad, though...some competition for itms would do wonders (at keeping the prices down).

Couldn't be more wrong. This competition is a marketing strategy to raise the prices. The plan for MTV is to have higher prices on popular songs. Exactly what the record companies want to do with itunes. If this is somewhat successful, then the record companies can start pulling out of iTunes, and just go with the tiered pricing approach.

Peace

Dec 16, 2005, 11:39 AM

The RIAA is treating music purchasers like heroin addicts.The more you like it,the more it costs.and that is wrong.

seashellz

Dec 16, 2005, 01:28 PM

I sometimes chuckle when I see that APPLE's idea of kool is U2.

But on second thought, MTV/MS idea of kool will be The Raspberries, the Fixx, or hell, even Paul Revere and the Raiders-along with Cliff Aiken, of course.
-----
>>Don't underestimate the amount of money M$ can put behind a venture like this.

True-but dont underestimate the amount of money that can be poured down the sh*thole, with little to show for it.
----
>>you guys don't seem to understand. itunes isn't that good on windows...

Well, SOMEBODY out there is buying them-theyre selling faster than condoms at a Hookers Convention-and since APPLE is only 5% of the market, alot of Windows users must like iPods...

Fireburst

Dec 16, 2005, 04:58 PM

I think a bit of competition will be good. If I was Apple I would be very worried. M$ haven't even tried to make a dent in this market yet but when they do I think we will all soon know about it.

Randall

Dec 16, 2005, 05:15 PM

>>you guys don't seem to understand. itunes isn't that good on windows...

Well, SOMEBODY out there is buying them-theyre selling faster than condoms at a Hookers Convention-and since APPLE is only 5% of the market, alot of Windows users must like iPods... I agree. I own an iPod (20Gb 4th generation with clickwheel), and I use iTunes for Windows almost exclusively. iTunes is excellent, I LOVE smart playlists. I love it so much that I spent 4 weeks properly re-tagging every mp3 and m4a file I own ~18Gb worth of files. It is QuickTime for Windows that sucks. It's very sluggish on even the fastest desktop systems around, and it takes up >80% CPU time. That's a different topic though. iTunes rules! Best digital audio jukebox I have ever had the pleasure of using. Thank you Apple, for bringing it to the PC!

strange days

Dec 16, 2005, 10:02 PM

i think if MTV show guests start playing around with non-iPod devices, and even mention URGE, they can be sued for hidden publicity, and forbidden market tactics. The same applies if M$ ships their WMP with URGE embedded; in Europe, at least, they will have to pay many times over a fat fine for illegal attempt to create monopolistic dominance ( or something like that )...

...and if they fail to catch the cool wave with URGE, it will be even funnier... :p

SPUY767

Dec 16, 2005, 11:40 PM

Microsoft is already every bit as cool as MTV.

That is so true, this made me think of that microsoft commercial that has that ugly girl who says that if her boyfriend dumps her, she's going to write a song using "the world of software that runs on Windows™" not considering that she could do a better job of it using the software that comes free on a mac. :-?

SPUY767

Dec 16, 2005, 11:43 PM

I agree. I own an iPod (20Gb 4th generation with clickwheel), and I use iTunes for Windows almost exclusively. iTunes is excellent, I LOVE smart playlists. I love it so much that I spent 4 weeks properly re-tagging every mp3 and m4a file I own ~18Gb worth of files. It is QuickTime for Windows that sucks. It's very sluggish on even the fastest desktop systems around, and it takes up >80% CPU time. That's a different topic though. iTunes rules! Best digital audio jukebox I have ever had the pleasure of using. Thank you Apple, for bringing it to the PC!

Just a pointer, Windows seems to purposely slow down quicktime, I don't know what the deal is. Well, we all know what the deal is, and that is that microsoft wants to keep quicktime out of the marketplace by convincing windows users that it blows. On a side note, the only procs that I've seen this interesting behavior in are Intel, AMD's seem to run QT just fine.

SPUY767

Dec 16, 2005, 11:49 PM

If they get really pissed off with Apple ( for not budging on prices, for example ) they could choose to charge Apple 20% higher royalties than other online music stores.

And apple would happily pay it cause they don't give a damn about how much money they make on the music, but what they do care about is keeping the iTMS songs at $0.99 to keep the iPods moving.

iMeowbot

Dec 16, 2005, 11:50 PM

i think if MTV show guests start playing around with non-iPod devices, and even mention URGE, they can be sued for hidden publicity, and forbidden market tactics.
What a weird coincidence, only this week the EC began looking at eliminating that rule (http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1666588,00.html) :eek: (Product placement is common on USAian TV.)

steve_hill4

Dec 17, 2005, 07:18 AM

Why YES! It is crap. WMV player pauses and gets choppy and is sloooow whenever you try to fast forward or reverse. You cant pick a specific time spot in anything like you can in Quicktime, It only support wmv format, you cant edit and the interface is horrible. And why would you buy music from one place that you need to buy a third party plugin to re-encode, then convert all the while losing quality for $2 a pop when you can just get it for a dollar and it plays??? Its so obvious that Microsoft is hoping that some of the MTV "cool" rubs off on them like one of the previous posters had said. And thanks for the "news alert" on the Flip4mac app Mr Cronkite. Better get the word out!!
Also, what's the betting it is 64kbps WMA? It has been showed time and time again that at 128kbps Ogg comes out on/near the top, followed by AAC, with ATRAC3 and WMA fighting it out for last place. If that's the result at 128kbps, compress that down again and let people pay the same as through the iTMS. When will people realise the con that is WMA? Few encode to it by choice, fewer download it by choice. Lots look at Creative as holding twice as much as an iPod, but when the differences are explained properly, they seriously start to consider an iPod instead. So these people aren't bothered about the model itself, just what it holds. If they provided better quality WMA, or even Ogg, to download, people would get no storage benefit, but might consider it fairer to compare and decide Creative.

It seems that the consumers seem to trust the mp3 manufacturers more to provide content than trust the record companies, traditional record stores and those who appear to be wanting to cash in, (usually people like MTV and Microsoft who have loose links to the service on both sides).

Peace

Dec 17, 2005, 09:16 AM

Here's an example of how this "could" lower iTunes market share.
Yesterday I took my brother to K-Mart..That's right..K-Mart..But anyway..
I was looking around the area where they sell DVD's and stuff and a 20 something walks up to the clerk and asks her "Do you have iPods?".The clerk responds "No.Sorry".The girl then quickly says "Well,do you have MP3 players?"
.The clerk responds "yes,over there".The girl then goes over and buys one.

Impulse shopping.That's where it's gonna hurt Apple.
But on the bright side I saw my Doctor yesterday and he told me he switched from a PeeCee to a new G5 iMac.And he loves it..Unfortunatly now he will be sending me email everytime he has a question about Tiger..
I should charge him $125 like he does me. hehehe

Super Dave

Dec 18, 2005, 02:39 PM

I think a bit of competition will be good. If I was Apple I would be very worried. M$ haven't even tried to make a dent in this market yet but when they do I think we will all soon know about it.

Microsoft's in a Catch 22. If they sell their own player they alienate their partners. If they don't, their partners will continue to make crap, simply because they're stupid.

I'm not suggesting that Microsoft would make a better player. Likely they would find a way to pooch it up. What I am saying though is that all of Microsoft's hardware partners suck. What are they gonna do?

David :cool:

Rantipole

Dec 19, 2005, 01:10 PM

Why would MTV have a music store? Do they have something to do with music? :rolleyes:

freeny

Dec 20, 2005, 09:22 AM

But on the bright side I saw my Doctor yesterday and he told me he switched from a PeeCee to a new G5 iMac.And he loves it..Unfortunatly now he will be sending me email everytime he has a question about Tiger..
I should charge him $125 like he does me. hehehe

You definately should! Perhaps a trade for nice cleaning is in store?

My wife got our stock broker to switch after turning him on to aapl stock. hes 80 years old and had stayed away from tech stocks due to his lack of knowledge on the subject. He advised against our purchase but was delighted after the stock almost doubled in 3 months. He still is against the stock but was intrigued to the products once he saw the overwealming interest in apple.

stunna

Dec 31, 2005, 09:35 PM

People will buy what ever their friends use and what their tech friends tell them are the best products

I think MS is really making this store for complete cross platform domination
imagine taking your mp3 player to your friends house and it automatically syncs up with XBOX 360 on your friends windows media center, then that same device also streams your email their too.
I think it falls under the idea of Bill Gates vision information from the clouds

cwedl

Jan 1, 2006, 04:40 AM

stunna

Jan 1, 2006, 01:01 PM

No company has won
No company will ever win
this is a continuous battle

billyboy

Jan 2, 2006, 11:17 AM

I think Apple has won the game of digital music in the Western World, and MS is maybe looking to pick up scraps here and there before they "branch out" to their mass markets in Asia and South America. Thats quite a long term investment, and in the land of pirates, good luck.

I dont get the iPod phenomenon any more btw. For home entertainment the tiny mac mini has started to get good as an affordable and small addition to your home computing set up. And for portable storage you can pick up usb non mains powered external 80GB drives for not a lot of money. Roads seem to be starting to lead back to Apple's computers - I guess the halo effect is in motion.