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View Full Version : Oh the joys of college; T&A and the Design Workplace




7on
Dec 21, 2005, 12:23 PM
Well I certainly enjoy emails from the professor over the Winter interm. Anyway - apparently several of us students have ranked up a lot of tardies and absences in class and his policy is to drop a letter grade when we get 5. However, being college he felt that we all should get a research paper. Goody. I just wanted to peak in here and see what some of you guys/gals's workplace's policies are concerning tardies and absences. Below is the email quoted.

Hello VCII people,
If you are getting this email it is due to a problem in your final grade. Each of you have had enough absences and tardies to drop you a complete letter grade. The problem of absences and tardies have been rampant this semester, not only in my class but in Daryl's Viscom courses and studio classes too. I am holding firm to the original absence and tardy policies stated in my syllabi.

I will give one consideration to you to keep your grade from dropping. For now I am assigning an Incomplete for your semester grade. By January 9th (emailed to me as an attachment), I want a 5 page research paper about 3 different businesses and thier policies towards absences, being late for work and missing deadlines. What are the repercussions an employee can expect from their employer when the employee habitually shows up late or not at all and what happens when deadlines are missed. This paper has to be significant in effort (not just crapped out the night before) for me to consider overlooking your total absences and tardies.

Please email me as to whether or not you plan to take advantage of this offer.

Thanks,
Rusty


I already told him I'd do it, but I rather not like research papers - but seeing as this would drop me from a B to a C, I have little say in the matter. Thanks for the help:D



decksnap
Dec 21, 2005, 12:30 PM
Man, what a misleading thread title! :D

iGary
Dec 21, 2005, 12:34 PM
I own a photography, writing and marketing communications business.

I show up whenever the **** I want to.

Well that is kind of crass...

Unless I have a deadline, but that isn't really "showing up."

If I turn in a project late, I usually lose the client/get fired.

There's your first one.

Deepdale
Dec 21, 2005, 12:40 PM
For the deceptive use of the letters T&A, I suggest you make your paper a minimum of ten pages long and promise never to do such a thing again. :)

gwuMACaddict
Dec 21, 2005, 12:41 PM
Man, what a misleading thread title! :D

no kidding!!

from now on "T&A" better mean something!

Deepdale
Dec 21, 2005, 12:50 PM
Anyway - apparently several of us students have ranked up a lot of tardies and absences in class...

In your college experience to date, have you enjoyed the S&M offerings ... science and math?

Studawg7
Dec 21, 2005, 01:12 PM
ok im going to vent some. why do some professors take roll? it is childish and this is COLLEGE. if one understands the material, meets deadlines, and is showing understanding of the material through exams or projects then there really is no reason to keep track of the days or times students are there. yeah the working world is different, but college isnt there to prepare you for work, its to prepare you for a lifetime of learning and thinking on your own. plus i know lots of professors that have odd working hours and they dont report to anyone..they are responsible for themselves, just like the students that take classes in college.

ATD
Dec 21, 2005, 01:39 PM
I own a design business.

I have no set hours, generally I come in early and leave late.

When I have other people help me they don't have set hours. As long as the work gets done I don't care. Work now-days is passed over the net, "showing up" is a moot point.

However, missing a deadline is a very big deal. If I miss a deadline with a client I could lose that account. If someone who is helping me misses one, I don't call them back.


There's # 2

cubist
Dec 21, 2005, 02:22 PM
Here's #3: I'm a software developer for a telecom company. While the company generally likes to see the people from time to time, there is no concern about tardiness and little about absences. As for deadlines, this is the software world. Deadlines are not taken seriously at all.

technicolor
Dec 21, 2005, 03:34 PM
ok im going to vent some. why do some professors take roll? it is childish and this is COLLEGE. if one understands the material, meets deadlines, and is showing understanding of the material through exams or projects then there really is no reason to keep track of the days or times students are there. yeah the working world is different, but college isnt there to prepare you for work, its to prepare you for a lifetime of learning and thinking on your own. plus i know lots of professors that have odd working hours and they dont report to anyone..they are responsible for themselves, just like the students that take classes in college.
Becuase colleges are made to produce people who can leave their institution and be an asset in the work place. Part of granting you a degree is that the institution as ensured you have met certain benchmarks and part of that is class contact hours. You are paying them(via scholarship, loan, your money, your parents money) to make you a commodity and part of that is making sure you are in class.

Lord Blackadder
Dec 21, 2005, 03:41 PM
Where's the T&A? :confused:









:rolleyes:

Studawg7
Dec 21, 2005, 03:55 PM
Becuase colleges are made to produce people who can leave their institution and be an asset in the work place. Part of granting you a degree is that the institution as ensured you have met certain benchmarks and part of that is class contact hours. You are paying them(via scholarship, loan, your money, your parents money) to make you a commodity and part of that is making sure you are in class.


those certain benchmarks are not time spent in class. those benchmarks are exams, projects, quizzes, and tests. One could sit in a any class and not pay attention the entire semester and still pass all "benchmarks." Being present doesnt make you smarter. Being active in your learning does. That is what you are paying for in going to college, the opportunity and environment to learn. And I hope no one is paying a college or university to become a commodity. That defeats the whole purpose of college.

iSaint
Dec 21, 2005, 04:01 PM
those certain benchmarks are not time spent in class. those benchmarks are exams, projects, quizzes, and tests. One could sit in a any class and not pay attention the entire semester and still pass all "benchmarks." Being present doesnt make you smarter. Being active in your learning does. That is what you are paying for in going to college, the opportunity and environment to learn. And I hope no one is paying a college or university to become a commodity. That defeats the whole purpose of college.

By the professor's requirements on the syllabus, time spent in class is a benchmark.

Ah, the Youth Who Know It All. I hope you don't tell your employer to look at the quality of your work when you don't show up half the time. It's not about you.

7on
Dec 21, 2005, 04:09 PM
Where's the T&A? :confused:









:rolleyes:
Tardiness and Absences? :shrugs:

Anyway, thanks for the info so far. I do have a part-time job on campus where I do design work. Printing to film and the whole she-bang. Anyway, I know they don't care when I show up as I get institutional pay by the hour. So if I don't show up I usually don't get paid for that hour and such. If I don't show up they get pretty mad if I don't call and tell them I'm not going to be in. I know deadlines are pretty hard (hard as in set in stone) and if you don't meet one you better be dead or you're going to be. I thought that was pretty much the attitude everywhere - as long as deadlines are met etc. showing up exactly on-time was not the highest priority.

At most in class I was 10 minutes late (the professor is hardly ever on-time at that, on-time means that he calls "roll" and if you're there when he says your name then you're on-time. Most of the time he is 5 minutes late by the clocks in the room) and even then I think that 10 minutes was only once... during snow. I always get my work done on-time and usually do pretty well on it (he does complain about linking .ai files in Indesign and if a linked image was resized in Indesign rather than resizing in Photoshop - which has been the extent of my technical mess-ups). Only once did I have a ****** design - but so did everyone in class and he had us re-do it.

Oh well, enough of my ranting... I need to paint a portrait of my grandmother for this Christmas thing my extended family does so I better get started.

Studawg7
Dec 21, 2005, 04:19 PM
By the professor's requirements on the syllabus, time spent in class is a benchmark.

Ah, the Youth Who Know It All. I hope you don't tell your employer to look at the quality of your work when you don't show up half the time. It's not about you.


and like my earlier post referred, being on time for class is essentially a stupid benchmark, heck its not even a benchmark. maybe if you work construction or youre a bank teller then it might be. but then again you dont need to go to COLLEGE to do those jobs.

as to your employer comment, its called pay for performance and flexible work schedules. granted not every industry has such a thing and of course it will depend on your job requirements but it is prevalent in the engineering area. plus, if my work is showing 20% growth in revenue and someone who puts in a regular 40 hr 9-5 job can only show 5% growth, who do you think is not going to get fired or let go anytime soon? Also, why do you see so many business people with blackberries? I am sure its not so they can just surf the web when they are waiting in the airport or out to lunch. its so they can continue to be in communication with the office when out of the office. they also utilize the internet and laptops if you can imagine that.

as for the "youth who know it all" comment, im not even going to go there b/c you missed the point. plus, im not even close to being clumped together in that age group.

JDOG_
Dec 21, 2005, 08:48 PM
Sorry being a recent college grad, I've gotta break it down for you. Not flaming you, but honestly after 4 years most of the people I know who graduated would agree with what I'm about to tell you.

ok im going to vent some. why do some professors take roll? it is childish and this is COLLEGE.

Yeah, but why are you skipping classes? College is expensive. It's a privelege to be there. I've met many people who have wished they could have gone to college or had the means to be there.

if one understands the material, meets deadlines, and is showing understanding of the material through exams or projects then there really is no reason to keep track of the days or times students are there.

Not true. This gives people who would otherwise never attend class a reason to be there. A pre-requesite of understanding the material is learning it, which despite the wonders of a textbook isn't possible without some solid instruction sometimes. I'm sure you can find an instance where I could be proved wrong, but generally there is a reason teachers still exist--teaching is better than reading a textbook.

yeah the working world is different, but college isnt there to prepare you for work, its to prepare you for a lifetime of learning and thinking on your own.

On the contrary. I think you'll find many college grads you talk to can attest that they regularly use skills founded in college. It's not just learning the methods to study, write papers and pass exams, it's about juggling multiple projects, dealing with superiors (teachers, t.a.'s) and keeping schedules (a.k.a going to class).


plus i know lots of professors that have odd working hours and they dont report to anyone..they are responsible for themselves, just like the students that take classes in college.

They did that because they went to grad school after doing well in college. They got a doctrate. That's hard.

You think they let you skip class in grad school? Sure, but you're sure as hell not going to do well or even make it past your first classes.

Seriously though, don't take offense to this, I'm just telling it like it is.

Chundles
Dec 21, 2005, 08:57 PM
Most of our classes over here do not take a roll. It's up to the student to determine whether or not they go. You don't go, the profs don't care.

I didn't go to most of my first year Chem classes and still pulled a HD in first session and a D in second session. Pretty damned good for a zero lecture attendance rate - I think in second session my mid-session exam mark was 14.75/15 where the average was 7.

EDIT: Oh, for you Americans et al out there, a HD is a High Distinction (85%+) and a D is a Distinction (75%+).

If you satisfy the requirements of the course you get a 50% Pass. You have to show a thorough knowledge of the material and the ability to solve more abstract and obscure problems to get a D, to get a HD you have to absolutely nail the course in all areas.

thedude110
Dec 21, 2005, 09:23 PM
ok im going to vent some. why do some professors take roll? it is childish and this is COLLEGE. if one understands the material, meets deadlines, and is showing understanding of the material through exams or projects then there really is no reason to keep track of the days or times students are there. yeah the working world is different, but college isnt there to prepare you for work, its to prepare you for a lifetime of learning and thinking on your own. plus i know lots of professors that have odd working hours and they dont report to anyone..they are responsible for themselves, just like the students that take classes in college.

Um, believe it or not, teaching is work. And your Professors actually prepare for the classes they teach (apparently more than you're preparing for them). Classrooms are also communities of learners, and you're being unfair to both your teacher and your peers by not attending.

Good for you that you can meet deadlines. Good for you that you can learn independently. But that doesn't mean you're allowed to decrease your participation in the classroom itself (and that participation includes your attention and your careful consideration of what's being presented to you by someone who has an advanced degree in the subject matter).

Studawg7
Dec 21, 2005, 09:26 PM
Sorry being a recent college grad
current grad student, BS in 03 MS in 06
Yeah, but why are you skipping classes? College is expensive. It's a privelege to be there. I've met many people who have wished they could have gone to college or had the means to be there.
i dont skip class b/c i see the importance of going, im an adult and make that choice. my rant has nothing to do with income and college being a privelege. it is about being treated as an adult and not a child in college.
Not true. This gives people who would otherwise never attend class a reason to be there. A pre-requesite of understanding the material is learning it, which despite the wonders of a textbook isn't possible without some solid instruction sometimes. I'm sure you can find an instance where I could be proved wrong, but generally there is a reason teachers still exist--teaching is better than reading a textbook.
again this opinion of mine that i keep stating has nothing to do with the need for classes and the need for professors. of course its important to have class time and professors. What I am saying that is unimportant is for the professor to care that he has students missing his class. they are adults and can make their own decisions and live with their own consequences. if this sounds cold, maybe it is, but its the way one is treated in college, no one holds your hand or wakes you up to go to class.
On the contrary. I think you'll find many college grads you talk to can attest that they regularly use skills founded in college. It's not just learning the methods to study, write papers and pass exams, it's about juggling multiple projects, dealing with superiors (teachers, t.a.'s) and keeping schedules (a.k.a going to class).
and that was my point. the experiences in college prepare you for life, not just the working world. you have to deal with people, understand the unknown, and handle many things at once. thats life and not just work though work utilizes those things.
You think they let you skip class in grad school? Sure, but you're sure as hell not going to do well or even make it past your first classes.
grad school in science and engineering isnt about the classes, thats the least important thing in grad school. (and thats the opinion of professors as well)

and im really not worked up about this topic. i just think its funny that a professor is taking attendance in a college level course. the professor isnt responsible for the students, the students are responsible for themselves. thats a life lesson thats MUCH more important than being on time.

Studawg7
Dec 21, 2005, 09:42 PM
Um, believe it or not, teaching is work. And your Professors actually prepare for the classes they teach (apparently more than you're preparing for them). Classrooms are also communities of learners, and you're being unfair to both your teacher and your peers by not attending.

Good for you that you can meet deadlines. Good for you that you can learn independently. But that doesn't mean you're allowed to decrease your participation in the classroom itself (and that participation includes your attention and your careful consideration of what's being presented to you by someone who has an advanced degree in the subject matter).

in everything that i have posted there has not been a sigle thread of what I do listed. Please refrain from making comments about what I do b/c you seriously dont know what I do. So please leave this discussion to the topic of the OP and not a discussion of what I do.

With that said, I totally agree with you on the community of learners bit and that yes other students and the professor could learn much from having a student attend and participate. But if the student doesnt want to be there he or she can do that. Its not something you force people to do. And finally, if a student doesnt want to be there then honestly do you think that he or she would be participating? Ive been in lots of classes where there is silence for over an hour. I am not joking. also, given i am in grad school right now and have been there for a couple of years you do learn how much a professor prepares for class. you would be suprised. also, professors already know the material very well, they dont really have to think about the material until someone asks a question. ask any professor, they'll tell you this.

Counterfit
Dec 21, 2005, 09:43 PM
I took Elementary Music Theory this semester. The attendance policy was "not present for roll = absent. 3 absences = one lower letter grade." Of course, I've been playing instruments for over 11 years now, and I took a theory class in high school (so long ago :o), so I knew almost everything before I took the class. As such, I missed or was late to 14 classes ( :eek: ). Thankfully the professor isn't/wasn't an *******, or even a hardass. I should check my grade soon, to see what I got.

Conversely, I also took History of Jazz this semester. I only missed two classes, one near the beginning because of a schedule ****up at work, and one because I forgot to set my alarm (the class started at 1PM :eek: ). There was some stuff in the class I already knew, but most of it I did not, so I went to class and learned it. Oh, and my uncle being the professor had absolutely nothing to do with my attendance in any way. :rolleyes:


My previous school had a mandatory attendance policy for all classes. Miss more than 3 before drop date, you get dropped. After the drop date, you get an F. I suppose it worked well enough. I passed all my classes (even English, D means Done! :D) and managed a B+ in first semester math, even though I slept through the entire class (thanks Norman ;)).

7on
Dec 22, 2005, 12:18 AM
I took Elementary Music Theory this semester. The attendance policy was "not present for roll = absent. 3 absences = one lower letter grade." Of course, I've been playing instruments for over 11 years now, and I took a theory class in high school (so long ago :o), so I knew almost everything before I took the class. As such, I missed or was late to 14 classes ( :eek: ). Thankfully the professor isn't/wasn't an *******, or even a hardass. I should check my grade soon, to see what I got.

Conversely, I also took History of Jazz this semester. I only missed two classes, one near the beginning because of a schedule ****up at work, and one because I forgot to set my alarm (the class started at 1PM :eek: ). There was some stuff in the class I already knew, but most of it I did not, so I went to class and learned it. Oh, and my uncle being the professor had absolutely nothing to do with my attendance in any way. :rolleyes:


My previous school had a mandatory attendance policy for all classes. Miss more than 3 before drop date, you get dropped. After the drop date, you get an F. I suppose it worked well enough. I passed all my classes (even English, D means Done! :D) and managed a B+ in first semester math, even though I slept through the entire class (thanks Norman ;)).

Yeah, similar case here - except 5 absences instead of 3 and we have to do a report to fix it. I'm not really bummed about the tardy policy - because that was his decision and on the syllabus. But this report is out of the blue. Sure it's cool that he had this "change of mind" if you will, I just hate that he gave us this option because now if I don't do it; it will reflect badly upon me. I lost all my scholarships Freshman year (on year 3 currently; Junior) so as long as I pass, I'm peachy (no pressure to keep a 3.25 and all). I know it's about the portfolio and I didn't skip class for the hell of it. I skipped once due to the ______ snow. I hate snow. And most of the days I was tardy was because of snow. I hate snow. Oh well, and another thing I hate as much as snow is writing papers. Did I mention how much I hate snow?

Any which way, I know two guys out in the field personally and I'll try and contact them to add to the mesh of words. Hell, it might just be about how Design firms could care less about attendance.

JDOG_
Dec 22, 2005, 12:50 AM
and im really not worked up about this topic. i just think its funny that a professor is taking attendance in a college level course. the professor isnt responsible for the students, the students are responsible for themselves. thats a life lesson thats MUCH more important than being on time.

Word.

Macky-Mac
Dec 22, 2005, 01:54 AM
.... Hell, it might just be about how Design firms could care less about attendance.


alas, you are probably going to find that showing up regularly and on time are more important in the work world than how well you do your job

ATD
Dec 22, 2005, 08:45 AM
Hell, it might just be about how Design firms could care less about attendance.


Some design firms are adamant about work hours, some are not. Generally it has to do with the work flow. When little work is going on, nobody cares. When there is an overload of work you will be expected to show up early and leave late. A lot of firms hire freelancers, because they are asking for a limited amount of work to be done over a limited period of time, these firms must be flexible about hours. It's all about reading between the lines when you sign on.

iGary
Dec 22, 2005, 09:05 AM
Becuase colleges are made to produce people who can leave their institution and be an asset in the work place. Part of granting you a degree is that the institution as ensured you have met certain benchmarks and part of that is class contact hours. You are paying them(via scholarship, loan, your money, your parents money) to make you a commodity and part of that is making sure you are in class.


Uh, nope.

I got A's in classes that I rarely showed up to. If I can pass the tests, do the homework and show I understand the subject matter, it doesn't make a **** of difference if I show up or not unless it is "Work Ethics 101."

I'm not paying to have some knobhead lecture me on lateness and tardiness. That was highschool.

7on got a B, and it should stay that way without this BS.

Seriously, if you want to do a piece on how it doesn't make a bit of difference when me or my employees show up, just as long as the work gets done, feel free to PM me. We're not a design firm, but it is in the creative field. You did your tests, your assignments and what was required and got a B. Now your grade is being held hostage? If the C didn't matter, I'd tell him to keep his effing paper.

I guess there is a reason I work for myself.

Christ, I hated professors like this. They were most often washouts that couldn't make it in the real world.

technicolor
Dec 22, 2005, 12:40 PM
If you don't see the point of going to class. You should drop out of college and get your money back.

7on
Dec 22, 2005, 02:09 PM
Hey now, I go to class. Like I said all but one were tardies. 5 minutes late and a few 10 minutes. It's not everyday either - it only had to be 5. And this is more or less a studio class. We sit in front of computers doing our projects. So we have a lot of work days. The one day I skipped was a workday. Fridays were test days and I always got there before he handed out the tests so that's not a problem.

Just a side note, I work in the summer full time for the on-campus Publications and I show up usually 5 minutes early. So it's not about me not being able to wake up on time.

One thing's for sure, I'm definitely not going to be seeking a job in cold climates.